Subject:	[Nova-Roma] AVE GNAEUS EQUITIUS MARINUS!!!!!
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:09:31 -0000

Congratulations colleague et amicus on the winning of this notable
award.

Your knowledge and your work here in Nova Roma are a blessing to us
all.

Buonum Fortunum Perpetuum :)

Po

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:25:13 -0800 (PST)

The Question of if the Gods want sacrafice isn't your
choice or mine. The Choice belongs to the Gods. Until
such time as they chose to provide us with a clear and
unmistakable omen that they no longer desire the
sacrifices that they demanded of our ancestors it
would be presumptious to declare them inappropriate.

The Religio is not about pleasing ourselves. It is not
about trendy new ideas. It about fulfilling a mutual
obligation between the Gods and Men. The Gods grant us
protection in return for honoring them through certain
ancient ritiuals. I Have no intrest in changing the
ritiuals without the consent of the Gods to please
whatever sentiments happen to be in style at the
present time.

Until I see an Omen to the contrary, It is my
contention that Nova Roma is igoring the Gods as long
as sacrifices are not carried out at the appropriate
times. Until we give the Gods thier due Honors, and
that includes relighting Vesta's hearth and resuming
sacrifices, the Gods will continue to withold thier
favors from Nova Roma, and we will not prosper.


--- g_valerius_taurinus
<g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> > Two points.
> > 1.) Any Muslam who results to theft for a
> sacrifical
> > victim has insulted Islam. Hopefully the
> authorities
> > will catch at least some of the thieves so they
> can
> > spend the next Ramadan in prison.
>
>
> I'll drink to that.
>
>
>
> > 2.) Any who know me are well aware that I'm no
> friend
> > of the Muslams, However If GAIA insists on
> interfering
> > with a ritiual that has been part of Islam since
> it's
> > founding, I Hope they sue GAIA and it's suporters
> into
> > bankruptcy.
>
>
>
> Well, I'm not so sure here. I certainly am no friend
> to Islam, but I
> will say that I believe that we have a new
> responsibility in the
> modern day, in regards to how we view and treat
> life- all life.
>
>
> Where animal sacrifices may have been necesarry or
> appropriate in the
> past, I think that perhaps the intervening centuries
> have created a
> world in which resources are not nearly as scarce,
> and where people
> live longer, fuller lives- and the ideals of
> humanity and
> civilization have taken root in most places.
> Preserving life is now a
> holy ideal, which demands as much patience,
> fortitude, and discipline
> as taking the lives of animals ever did in the past.
>
>
>
> In the play "Titus Andronicus", Titus sacrifices the
> eldest son of
> the Queen of the Goths, Tamera- and he does so
> basically because
> tradition demands it. It is done before the queen's
> eyes, as she
> pitifully begs for her sons life- in vain. Her final
> rebuke, through
> tears, is "Oh, Cruel, Irreligious Piety!"
>
>
> What Tamera meant was that nothing is more ignoble
> than cruelty that
> is done in the name of an empty piety, which may be
> (and which she
> believed was) based on empty ritual performance,
> devoid of any
> meaning that it may have once had. In this case, it
> cost her son's
> life, but as it is done today, it costs the no less
> precious lives of
> animals.
>
>
> I have a hard time believing that anyone in the
> modern world who
> isn't raised around animals, and who sees T.V., and
> has fast food for
> lunch, and a laptop computer, and drives everywhere
> in a car, REALLY
> has much of a meaningful connection to the past in
> which slitting an
> animal's throat for the Gods (or God) was done. I
> think that those
> who could claim such a connection to the organic
> necessities of life,
> and who still had a living religious tradition that
> demanded blood
> sacrifice, are few and far between.
>
>
> I think that we need to embrace preservation of life
> as a greater,
> more meaningful virue than taking life for the Gods-
> because we are
> blessed and priveledged to be able to take care of
> life and have more
> easy access to life-giving resources in the modern
> day, than our
> ancestors ever could or did.
>
>
> I have no real love for Islam; I cannot help but
> think that some
> people cutting the throats of animals in the modern
> day because a
> holy book tells them to is anything other than
> cruel, empty piety. In
> the few instances where I am wrong, I fully support
> those people, and
> I hope that the beasts that are killed will find
> their rest swiftly
> in the bosom of the world below, and find permenant
> freedom from this
> suffering.
>
>
> In closing, allow me to quote Queen Tamera again,
> from that same
> drama- she tells Titus "Sweet mercy is nobiliy's
> true badge!" I have
> to say, I totally agree. Mercy for the animals whom
> the Koran says to
> kill would show true virtue and nobility, in my
> eyes, in this modern
> day. The world changes. People change. We have the
> power and the
> right to re-define the technical points of
> "sacrifice", to bring it
> more in line with our new visions of our world, and
> our new
> understandings. Anyone who has experienced the power
> of symbolism
> knows that symbolic sacrifices, done rightly, have
> the same power as
> what they represent. You show refinement and
> humanity by sparing
> lifeblood in exchange for symbolic offerings.
>
>
> Life is sacred. Its precious. I find more honor in
> its preservation
> than in its taking- and I would also like to say
> that the main reason
> why it was more appropriate then and not so much now
> is because a pig
> or a game hen was a vital, important thing to our
> ancestors in a way
> that it is not so vital now- it would be a bigger,
> more meaningful
> sacrifice for me to give up one of my personal
> belongings or personal
> habits or to devote myself to higher standards, than
> to just kill an
> anonymous animal.
>
>
> GVT
>
>
>
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:31:38 EST

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to L. Sicinius Drusus. Salve.

It is important, dear citizen, to remember that the Religio was and remains
an evolving religion. The Ancient Fathers were among the most adaptive of
folk and were not above making changes to the Faith of Numa as the Republic
expanded. Cicero sacrificed not out of piety alone but also out of
practicality. Not every sacrifice to the Gods required the sacrifice of a
sow, ox, bird, etc. but many did in the name of tradition and the
contractural obligation between Man & Diety. The Romans even reverted to
human sacrifice during the dark days of the Second Punic War but I do not
believe even the most conservative and dutiful citizen of NR would suggest
that act under any circumstances (even after the events of September 2001).
The Gods of Rome are as varied as the citizens of NR and it may be that they
will reveal their intentions in time but so long as the New Republic stays
strong and growing, should we not each keep the Gods in their hearts as each
sees fit. It does not become mortal man to suggest that he or she knows the
face of his gods in their infinite capacity but only perceives them as their
spirit wills. I would hope that noble Iuppiter, wise Minerva, and merciful
Iuno are grateful that prayers and sacred incense smoke rise again from the
altars of true believers and loyal citizens. We live in a new land that was
never touched directly by Old Rome yet I have made sacrifice and given
worship at the shrines of Sulis, Athena Parthenos, and Mars Victor that stand
in my city of Nashville. Let us remember the Virtues and keep our piety
close to our hearts. May Good Fortune and the Gods favor you. Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LUDI MAXIMI CIRCENSES: Quarters
From:	"Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@inicia.es>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:35:00 -0000

Avete, citizens!

This is the beginning of the The Ludi Maximi Circenses.

The championship of the champions!

The better twelve chariots of the four factiones face to know who is
the best of all in this year. The circus is crammed with fans of all
four colors. The expectation is maximum and nobody bets for a sure
winner. All twelve chariots are favorite and the goddess Fortuna is
the only judge.




QUARTER

------------------------------------------------------------------

GROUP A

Inexpugnabilis
driver: Ignis
by Caius Curius Saturninus
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Praesina

Italica
driver: Equus Erectus
by Franciscus Apulus Caesar
Race tactic: (4)
Factio: Russata

Impactus Infrenatus
driver: Malleus Nolens
by Gn. Octavius Noricus
Race tactic: (5)
Factio: Albata

Fvror Tevtonicvs
driver: Scissor Obscurvs Northmannvs
by Alexander Solaris Draco
Race tactic: (4)
Factio: Russata

Results
1st: Accident
2nd: Inexpugnabilis
3th: Accident
4th: Furor Teutonicus

GO IN SEMIFINAL: Inexpugnabilis and Furor Teutonicus

Three chariots with violent tactics in a race of four ones. Soon the
veteran Inexpugnabilis took advantage, but the public enjoyed the
wild struggle of whips and wheels between Malleus and Scissor. A
terrible struggle in which the wicked Scissor won in the last moment,
squashing on the wall to the chariot Impactus Infrenatus of Malleus.
The shock was brutal and a wheel of the chariot flew on the air and
fell down on Equus, driver of Italic, causing a serious craneal
traumatism.
Inexpugnabilis won the race by great speed and Furor Teutonicus was
the second one by horrible evilness.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

GROUP B

Essedum
driver: Italicus
by Manius Constantinus Serapio
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Praesina

Gladius Albus
driver: Damnator
by Marcus Octavius Solaris
Race tactic: (4)
Factio: Albata

Massilia
driver: Leonnatus
by Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Race tactic: (6)
Factio: Russata

Results
1st: Accident
2nd: Essedum
3th: Gladius Albus

GO IN SEMIFINAL: Essedum and Gladius Albus

In this race the fans of the Albata enjoyed like never! Their great
hero Damnator, "the terrifying whip", managed to provoke the accident
of the red chariot Massilia, avenging his wretch companion Malleus of
Impactus Infrenatus and increasing the wild hatred of the red fans
against him. Nevertheless, he could not avoid the easy victory of the
champion veteran Essedum. The greens are in a good way after their
disaster in the Ludi Victoria and their factio is clear favorite for
the final victory.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

GROUP C

Aquilifer
driver: Noefequix
by M. Minicius Rufus
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Russata

B.S.D. Liber
driver: Carolus Daemonicus
by Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Albata

Basilea
driver: Septimius Raurax
by Tiberius Annaeus Otho
Race tactic: (6)
Factio: Praesina

Results
1st: Basilea
2nd: B.S.D. Liber
3th: Aquilifer

GO IN SEMIFINAL: Basilea and B.S.D. Liber

A clean race without violent tactics where all three chariots ran as
sparks. The public was amazed of that the drivers wanted neither to
use the whip against his rivals nor to push them on the wall or the
spina. Many fans asked for more violence and fewer elegance. "The
circus is the war!" They were shouting very angered. But all three
chariots prefered to play the victory in a long final sprint. The
victor was Basilea, with clear advantage, whereas the second post was
very disputed. Finally B.S.D. Liber advanced for a span the veteran
Aquilifer, provoking the ecstasy of the white fans.
The Russata is having very bad luck in these Ludi.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

GROUP D

Crux Australis
driver: Victor Hispanicus
by Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Race tactic: (6)
Factio: Veneta

Delecta Mea
driver: Scorpianus
by Jullila Sempronia Magna
Race tactic: (2)
Factio: Praesina

Proeliator
driver: Gustavus Barbarus
by Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Race tactic: (2)
Factio: Russata

Results
1st: Accident
2nd: Crux Australis
3th: Delecta Mea

GO IN SEMIFINAL: Crux Australis and Delecta Mea

The only blue of the ludi against two experienced veterans of the
reds and greens. Nevertheless, the experience did not serve for much.
Crus Australis gave a speed lesson to its rivals. Proeliator and
Delecta Mea had to fight for the second post, but the red chariot was
less skilful in the last curve and hit on the spina. Its driver
Gustavus suffered a rain of forceful and sharpened objects from the
steps and had to run not to be a dead man. The red fans did not
accept with pleasure his accident.
On the other hand, the blue fans are already thinking of raising a
statue in honor of Pompeius Octavianus, the happy owner of Crus
Australis.



In the next days, the semifinals!


Salix Galaicus
scriba cursus equorum aedilis curulis
(the scribe of the races)

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: a quick note on animal sacrifice For Drusus
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:35:23 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:

> The Question of if the Gods want sacrafice isn't your
> choice or mine. The Choice belongs to the Gods. Until
> such time as they chose to provide us with a clear and
> unmistakable omen that they no longer desire the
> sacrifices that they demanded of our ancestors it
> would be presumptious to declare them inappropriate.



Tell me- where did you get your ancient Roman augury and omen
training that would supply you with the same insight into how to
recognize these "signs" that our ancestors saw, so that if and when
the Gods decide to send this omen saying that they no longer "demand
blood sacrifice", you will surely recognize it?


In fact, why is it that you think that you or a few other people here
at Nova Roma would be the people that the Gods would choose to send
this sign to? What if I should happen to get this omen, and because
you didn't believe me, you chose to continue killing animals, despite
the Gods' wishes to the contrary?


And where is it written that the Gods originally "DEMANDED" sacrifice
from our ancestors? I was under the impression that Humans had the
free will to approach the Gods, and not just following DEMANDS out of
fear or duty. If that's how you think the Gods are, those aren't the
Gods that I have come to know. They don't require ANY kind of
sacrifice from us- it is our perogative to offer them, to enter into
a two-way exchange and relationship with the Gods, out of kinship,
respect, and awe- not fear and servitude.




> The Religio is not about pleasing ourselves. It is not
> about trendy new ideas.



I never said that it was. But the religio is also not JUST about the
Gods. Humans have a duty to ONE HALF of a relationship with the
divine; we are important in this situation. We aren't peons just
making sacrifice after sacrifice to satisfy a bunch of divine
demands. And by the way- it is very pleasing to be involved in a
religious relationship with the Gods- EVERYONE in the Religio gains
emotional pleasure and spiritual expression and satisfaction from it,
or I can assure you, it wouldn't be done with half the gusto and
fascination that it is, and it wouldn't have been so prominent among
our ancestors.



>It about fulfilling a mutual
> obligation between the Gods and Men.


The Gods have no obligations to us. We MAKE obligations to them to
help ourselves to enter into relationships with them, and draw their
power into our lives and the lives of our families, and thereby to
bring ourselves nearer to their mysterious and divine Natures.



The Gods grant us
> protection in return for honoring them through certain
> ancient ritiuals. I Have no intrest in changing the
> ritiuals without the consent of the Gods to please
> whatever sentiments happen to be in style at the
> present time.


The forms of the rituals that were used back in the day were nothing
more than expressions of what was "in style" at the time. Times have
changed; we are different in very essential ways from our Ancestors-
the Gods want US to worship them and relate to them as WHO WE ARE,
not as posers pretending to be ancient Romans and acting out
according to outdated and outmoded ideas that we read in a book.
Listen to what you are saying. SOMEONE decided, a long time ago,
based on prevailing attitudes and aesthetics, how the Gods would be
worshipped and approached. We must do the same. The Gods are still
the Gods. We are still humans. A relationship can still be achieved,
with as much power and sanctity as out ancestors had- but the playing
field is different, our minds are different, and times are different.
You ignore these things at your own Peril.



> Until I see an Omen to the contrary, It is my
> contention that Nova Roma is igoring the Gods as long
> as sacrifices are not carried out at the appropriate
> times.


Nova Roma is in no manner ignoring the Gods just because we aren't
slaughtering 100 Bulls to Zeus on his holy days. Nova Roma gives the
Gods the highest quality worship and recognition that they have
likely seen in 1500 years, and I can assure you that they are QUITE
happy with it.


> Until we give the Gods thier due Honors, and
> that includes relighting Vesta's hearth and resuming
> sacrifices, the Gods will continue to withold thier
> favors from Nova Roma, and we will not prosper.


I give the Gods their due honors. Vesta's hearth burns in my home and
in the home and in the heart of every follower of the Religio here- a
place where it cannot be extinguished by darkness. My sacrifice is
myself; my pride, my love, portions of the precious food that
sustains my life, and my devotion. And I prosper, and so do my loved
ones, and so will Nova Roma. You, my friend, in my opinion, need to
dig a little deeper into the meaning of Spirituality, and stop being
trapped on the surfaces.


GVT

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: a quick note on animal sacrifice For Drusus
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:34:41 -0800 (PST)

The Religio is not about inovation. The Romans didn't
take chances when it came to thier ritiuals. They
performed them without change, and the smallest
deviation from the ancient rites invalidated the
ritiual and it had to be performed from the start.

Sacrifice was a part of these rites, and changing them
without a clear sign from the Gods is not Roman.

The Gods may or may not still desire sacrifice. If
they don't they will make that known to us, but simply
changing the rites on our own is not Roman.

You may do as you please with your private rites. If
the Gods aren't pleased with them, then that is your
problem not mine. The State Religio is another matter.
These rites affect Nova Roma, and should be performed
according to the ancient ritiuals, and that includes
sacrifices at the proper times.

--- g_valerius_taurinus
<g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> > The Question of if the Gods want sacrafice isn't
> your
> > choice or mine. The Choice belongs to the Gods.
> Until
> > such time as they chose to provide us with a clear
> and
> > unmistakable omen that they no longer desire the
> > sacrifices that they demanded of our ancestors it
> > would be presumptious to declare them
> inappropriate.
>
>
>
> Tell me- where did you get your ancient Roman augury
> and omen
> training that would supply you with the same insight
> into how to
> recognize these "signs" that our ancestors saw, so
> that if and when
> the Gods decide to send this omen saying that they
> no longer "demand
> blood sacrifice", you will surely recognize it?
>
>
> In fact, why is it that you think that you or a few
> other people here
> at Nova Roma would be the people that the Gods would
> choose to send
> this sign to? What if I should happen to get this
> omen, and because
> you didn't believe me, you chose to continue killing
> animals, despite
> the Gods' wishes to the contrary?
>
>
> And where is it written that the Gods originally
> "DEMANDED" sacrifice
> from our ancestors? I was under the impression that
> Humans had the
> free will to approach the Gods, and not just
> following DEMANDS out of
> fear or duty. If that's how you think the Gods are,
> those aren't the
> Gods that I have come to know. They don't require
> ANY kind of
> sacrifice from us- it is our perogative to offer
> them, to enter into
> a two-way exchange and relationship with the Gods,
> out of kinship,
> respect, and awe- not fear and servitude.
>
>
>
>
> > The Religio is not about pleasing ourselves. It is
> not
> > about trendy new ideas.
>
>
>
> I never said that it was. But the religio is also
> not JUST about the
> Gods. Humans have a duty to ONE HALF of a
> relationship with the
> divine; we are important in this situation. We
> aren't peons just
> making sacrifice after sacrifice to satisfy a bunch
> of divine
> demands. And by the way- it is very pleasing to be
> involved in a
> religious relationship with the Gods- EVERYONE in
> the Religio gains
> emotional pleasure and spiritual expression and
> satisfaction from it,
> or I can assure you, it wouldn't be done with half
> the gusto and
> fascination that it is, and it wouldn't have been so
> prominent among
> our ancestors.
>
>
>
> >It about fulfilling a mutual
> > obligation between the Gods and Men.
>
>
> The Gods have no obligations to us. We MAKE
> obligations to them to
> help ourselves to enter into relationships with
> them, and draw their
> power into our lives and the lives of our families,
> and thereby to
> bring ourselves nearer to their mysterious and
> divine Natures.
>
>
>
> The Gods grant us
> > protection in return for honoring them through
> certain
> > ancient ritiuals. I Have no intrest in changing
> the
> > ritiuals without the consent of the Gods to please
> > whatever sentiments happen to be in style at the
> > present time.
>
>
> The forms of the rituals that were used back in the
> day were nothing
> more than expressions of what was "in style" at the
> time. Times have
> changed; we are different in very essential ways
> from our Ancestors-
> the Gods want US to worship them and relate to them
> as WHO WE ARE,
> not as posers pretending to be ancient Romans and
> acting out
> according to outdated and outmoded ideas that we
> read in a book.
> Listen to what you are saying. SOMEONE decided, a
> long time ago,
> based on prevailing attitudes and aesthetics, how
> the Gods would be
> worshipped and approached. We must do the same. The
> Gods are still
> the Gods. We are still humans. A relationship can
> still be achieved,
> with as much power and sanctity as out ancestors
> had- but the playing
> field is different, our minds are different, and
> times are different.
> You ignore these things at your own Peril.
>
>
>
> > Until I see an Omen to the contrary, It is my
> > contention that Nova Roma is igoring the Gods as
> long
> > as sacrifices are not carried out at the
> appropriate
> > times.
>
>
> Nova Roma is in no manner ignoring the Gods just
> because we aren't
> slaughtering 100 Bulls to Zeus on his holy days.
> Nova Roma gives the
> Gods the highest quality worship and recognition
> that they have
> likely seen in 1500 years, and I can assure you that
> they are QUITE
> happy with it.
>
>
> > Until we give the Gods thier due Honors, and
> > that includes relighting Vesta's hearth and
> resuming
> > sacrifices, the Gods will continue to withold
> thier
> > favors from Nova Roma, and we will not prosper.
>
>
> I give the Gods their due honors. Vesta's hearth
> burns in my home and
> in the home and in the heart of every follower of
> the Religio here- a
> place where it cannot be extinguished by darkness.
> My sacrifice is
> myself; my pride, my love, portions of the precious
> food that
> sustains my life, and my devotion. And I prosper,
> and so do my loved
> ones, and so will Nova Roma. You, my friend, in my
> opinion, need to
> dig a little deeper into the meaning of
> Spirituality, and stop being
> trapped on the surfaces.
>
>
> GVT
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A Quick Note on Animal Sacrifices et Religio Practises
From:	"pompeia_cornelia" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:05:13 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

Based on my knowledge of the Religio, little was changed or done of
any importance in antiquita with respect to religious rites or
political elections 'without' an augury.

A quick tour through search engines will show that not all sacrifices
to the Gods were 'blood' sacrifices in nature, but the essence of the
worship was the sacrifice to offer to the respective deities.

In saying that the augury is the first step to confirm anything, is
not claiming any special powers as an 'augur' but to state that the
augury is more or less a means of obtaining 'divine' permission or
guidance as to the appropriate offering, or anything else which is in
question.

I can understand the stance of L. Sicinius Drusus, when he says that
things, ie rituals, sacrifices had to be done 'correctly' or repeated
again and again until they were executed correctly. And if any
change were to be sought in the ceremony or sacrifice to begin with,
an augury would be taken.

And if an augury were to be taken in the name of Nova Roma, the
outcome might affect us all.

Pontiffs et devout Practitioners, do I have this right?

Bene valete,
P. Cornelia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] New Citizen: Galus Agorius Taurinus
From:	"g_valerius_taurinus" <g_valerius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:05:29 -0000

Greetings to you all, Honorable Citizens:


I originally applied for citizenship wanting to resurrect the Gens
Valerius, as I saw that it was an unclaimed Nomen at the Nova Roma
website.


I was then informed that Gens Valerius was indeed already taken and
formed, so I applied to be accepted as a citizen under the name Galus
Agorius Taurinus. After I am finished typing this letter to you all,
I will delete this email account and create one with my new and
proper name: Galus Agorius Taurinus.


The Agorius family was the family of the honorable Roman politician,
leader, and champion of Paganism in the Senate and abroad in the 4th
century of the Common Era: one of my heroes and spiritual forefathers-
Vettius Agorius Praetextatus. He saw the power and light of the true
Pagan religion being stolen from the world; he fought to maintain it.
He was initiated at Eleusis; he knew the Triple Secret of Hecate; He
was of exalted rank in the Cult of Mithras; He was a man of the Gods
and of nobility.


I wish to honor his good name by seeing the Traditional Religion live
again in the minds and hearts of all who seek it, and that it be
defended from those who would diminish its glory. May his noble Genius
assist me in this task. I ask too that the noble Genius of the Great
Flavius Claudius Julianus lend his aid and blessing, and may the
Faith of the Gods that sustained our forefathers and foremothers come
to again find the respect and acceptance that is so richly deserves.



Truth and Honor:

Galus Agorius Taurinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] And so here I am...
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:17:21 -0000

Salve, good people:


My new email address is

G_Agorius_Taurinus@yahoo.com

I will post from this address from now on and recieve private emails
from here as well.


I can also be reached at

hernesson@hotmail.com


I look forward to more stimulating discussions.


GAT

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:31:09 -0000

Will that be legal if and when we get a whole physical community
going? I know that during the first Roman reign, prostitutes were
legal and even at one point considered to be better than 'regular'
women (as they were allowed to become more educated, own land, etc.
in a time that most women weren't, and therefore provided *gasp*
equal and stimulating conversation!). Anyway, just curious if this
would be allowed in the future.

Vale,
Lithia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] RE: Animal Sacrifice
From:	"T. Cornelius Crispus" <centuriocornelius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:56:21 -0600

Ave Strabo,
Could you please clarify one thing for me. I don't understand how an animal
is symoblicly sacrificed. Could you please explain?
Vale,
T. Cornelius Crispus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lancaster" <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 12:38 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] RE: Animal Sacrifice


> Avete Quirites!
>
> Seriously snipped quote:
>
> "Well, Christianity at least never had animal sacrifice. -- Nerva"
>
> As a very tangential aside to this discussion, my research into the life
of
> Julia Domna, wife of Septimius Severus, has revealed that she herself was
> very opposed to animal sacrifice of any sort. She believed, along with
> others, apparently, that symbolic sacrifices "should be" enough to satisfy
> the Gods. When she and Flavius Philostratus (II) arguably conspired to
turn
> the 1st century CE sage Apollonius of Tyana into the cornerstone of a new,
> syncretistic religious movement, they made a point of emphasizing (or
> possibly inventing, I'm not sure at this point) Apollonius' vegetarianism,
> and having him prefer symoblic to literal sacrifices as a higher, more
> spiritual offering. There are lots of different strains coming together
to
> make the long, and occasionally tedious, song that is Philostratus' "Life
of
> Apollonius of Tyana," not the least of which was Neo-Pythagoreanism (of
> which I am not even a neo-phyte ;o) . But Julia was fond of Christians
and
> Jews, the former performing weekly spiritual sacrifices and the later no
> longer having a place to sacrifice, and having to come up with alternative
> methods to become "right" with their deity.
>
> This isn't meant as an argument or refutation of any sort, just an
> interesting sidelight. As with any group of people, there is never a
> uniform consensus where everyone believes the same thing. It's as true of
> 2nd/3rd century CE Pagans as well as Christians. Julia did not live long
> enough to see Philostratus' book published, and no organized movement to
use
> it as a Scripture ever really developed, although the cult of Apollonius
was
> established well before their literary efforts. Had things gone a
different
> way and the Severan dynasty continued, it's possible an official
vegetarian
> cult may have been promoted, as Julia Mamaea, Domna's great-neice, and her
> son Alexander Severus were both enamored of all world relgions and seemed
> possibly interested in continuing Domna Augusta's work. But that's all
> woulda coulda shoulda now....
>
> Valete,
>
> CN. IVLIVS STRABO
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] AVE GNAEUS EQUITIUS MARINUS!!!!!
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:25:32 -0800 (PST)

The fair and lovely Praetrix Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
writes:

> Congratulations colleague et amicus on the winning
> of this notable award.

Thank you ma'am. It required a fair amount of skull
sweat, given the situation the Roman forces were
placed into. All things considered I think our
esteemed colleague Quintus Fabius Maximus is right,
and that the wisest choice is to stay away from Cannae
entirely. But the rules didn't allow that.

> Your knowledge and your work here in Nova Roma are a
> blessing to us all.

No moreso than yours Po. But thank you.

-- Marinus

=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Thank you LCS
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:40:47 -0800 (PST)

L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

[In yet another of his efforts to maintain cordiality
and civility here]

> And, what exactly does this have to do with Nova
> Roma? If you don't like it, ignore it or protest it
> or organize against it or be proactive and establish
> your own Temple and advertise like the Christians
> do. But please lets not bring it into Nova Roma.

For this, and your many other efforts, I just want to
say "Thank you" to the junior consul. I really,
really
appreciate his efforts in this respect. Though I
often disagree with him on issues, I have the greatest
respect for his continuing effort to foster Concordia
here among us.


=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Subscribe MLC
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 05:43:55 +0000

Thank you Apule Caesar for your reply. That took a lot of typing, and
it is appreciated.

Galerius Peregrinator.


>
>Franciscus Apulus Caesar Gaio Galerio Peregrinator S.P.D.
>
>Please, read this part of the official regulations:
>
>4) How the races will be?...
>

_________________________________________________________________
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:10:16 -0000

CHRISTIANITY AND THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE

With the death of the emperor Antoninus Pius, the last great era of
Roman peace can be said to have come to an end. Rome had reached it?s
peak, and from then on, the slow process of decay and collapse began.
It has been convenient to date the beginning of the Fall to the reign
of Commodus, who ascended to the purple in 180, but the first signs of
trouble from outside could be said to be the barbarian invasions
during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. For our purposes, let us follow
convention and take 180 CE as our starting date, with the deposing of
the emperor Romulus Augustulus by Odoacer in 476 as the end. If we do
this, then the process of the fall of the Roman Empire in the west
took about 296 years.

Here is a time line of some of the major events relevant to this
discussion:
1} 180 CE?Asession of Commodus; tradititional date for the beginning
of the fall.
2} 306 CE---Constantine acclaimed Emperor in the West.
3} 312 CE---Constantine?s conversion to Christianity; battle of the
Milvian Bridge
4} 325---First Council of Niceae
5} 357 CE---Altar of Victory first removed by Constantius
6} 391 CE---The Emperor Theodosius begins issuing edicts which
effectively outlaw paganism. Official ?Christianization? of the Roman
Empire.
7} 476 CE---Romulus Augustulus deposed. End of the Roman Empire in
the west.


The fall of the Roman Empire is the second of the three ?sore spots?
for Roman pagans today, and a common belief among pagans is that
Christianity is to blame for it. We know the very real chain of
causes that led to Rome?s fall, such as the devaluation of currency,
the exorbitant cost of maintaining a sufficient military presence on
the frontiers, the penetration of those frontiers by migratory waves
of "barbarians hordes", the decline of cities. And the pagan will
not deny outright that these and other factors played a part in the
process. But they will persist in maintaining that at least the
lion?s share of the blame is to be laid at the feet of Christianity,
and that the Fall came about mainly for religious reasons. Why?

To answer this question, we need to remember a sharp distinction
between Roman paganism and Christianity. Christianity is not by
nature a "state religion". The New Testament is strikingly absent of
political aspirations. The "Kingdom of God" is a spiritual society,
not a nation. This explains why the Christian sect did not join the
Jews in revolt against Rome in 65 CE. In addition to this, there was
in the first century CE a strong belief in an immanent return of
Christ. There is no need to create a new nation if one believes God's
direct intervention and establishment of a "New Heaven and New Earth"
is at hand.

Roman Paganism, while including household and family aspects, was
primarily a state religion whose object was the maintainence of the
Pax Deorum to secure the benevolence and support of the gods for the
state. Therefore, if some disaster should befall the state, it could
not be seen only as a political or social problem; it was also a
religious problem. And so religious causes and remedies would also
need to be found.

The fall of the western empire was not just a catastrophe. It was THE
catastrophe. And for the pagan, the problem is obvious: The gods did
not save Rome. This failure on the part of the gods to save the state
must therefore need explanation if the religion is to maintain any
credibility. If we wish to explore the possibility of a religious
reason for the fall, then there are three and only three
possibilities:

1. The gods did not save Rome because they never existed.
2. The gods did not save Rome because they were unable to do so.
{Impotency}
3. The gods did not save Rome because they were unwilling to do so,
due to Christianity.

It should be immediately obvious that options 1 and 2 are unacceptable
to the pagan. Otherwise the pagan would have to say his gods were not
real, or were too weak. The pagan therefore has no choice but to
accept option 3: Rome?s fall is to be blamed {in large part at least}
on Christianity and the Christians.

However, the theory is discredited by three facts.

FIRST, the collapse of the west was already advanced before the
Christians attained power. Before Constantine, the empire was
threatened and time and time again penetrated by more formidable and
better organized Germanic tribes. Dacia was lost. The cost of
maintaining a military force to guard the vast borders required
increased taxation and confiscation of good which placed intolerable
burdens on the civilian population. Currency was debased, inflation
rampant, and the wrecked economy drove more and more of the
agricultural rural population to abandon the land, which in turn led
to more banditry. The cities and towns also suffered as it was
increasingly difficult to find propertied men who would afford the
high cost of magistrate jobs. While this was happened there was also
the political instability. In the fifty year span between the reigns
of Severus Alexander and Diocletian, the average length of the reigns
of the emperors was about three years. Diocletains emergency economic
measures may have temporarily slowed the economic collapse, but at the
cost of depriving the people of whatever vestiges of Roman liberty
they had left, and his well intentioned but impossible system of the
Tetrarchy failed as soon as the old man retired.

Even if we count the beginning of the Christian Empire with the
conversion of Contantine in 312, this means that the empire had
already been going to the dogs for 132 years. But Constantine did not
abolish paganism, and while he clearly showed favors to the
Christians, it was Theodosius, and not Constantine, who banished
paganism and made Christianity the official religion of the empire.
This would mean that over half of the 296 year period of the fall was
when the pagans were still tending the state religion and the gods
were still supposedly looking after the store.

SECOND, Only the Western Empire fell, while the Eastern Empire did
not. The Eastern {"Byzantine"} Roman Empire went on for another
thousand years, finally falling to the Turks in the 1400s.
Now this is a very serious anomaly for the pagan?s religious theory.
Why did not the whole empire fall? After all, the East too was once
pagan. Temples to the Genius of Roma and her gods dotted the
landscape of the ancient Eastern Empire. And the East became
officially Christian at the same time the west did. How is it then,
that the god?s departure due to Christianity left only the West in the
dust and the East still standing?

The pagan may argue from natural causes. For example, he may protest
that the East had less border territory to protect, or that it?s
economy was healthier. But this cannot work, for he falls into
inconsistency.
Remember, the pagan theory of the fall of the west is primarily
theological, or supernatural. He cannot now switch tactics and explain
away this anomaly by appealing to natural causes, and thus contradict
his own thesis! If the survival of the Eastern Empire is to be
explained by natural causes {as I think it should be} then it is only
logical to assume that the fall of the Western Empire was also due to
natural causes. But if the pagan agrees, then he has surrendered his
above-mentioned option 3, and must therfore be stuck with having to
choose between options 1 and 2. It is not a happy choice for him.

THIRDLY, while civilization did disappear from the west, it did not
remain absent forever. It came back. And more to the point, it came
back without the gods. This is perhaps the most damning indictment of
the pagans "Blame Christianity" theory. To say that the departure of
the gods doomed the west to barbarism and the dark ages seems to
suggest that western civilization somehow depends on appeasing the
gods and maintaining the pax deorum. And since the fall of the Roman
Empire, this is precisely what the west has not done.

Now we have come to the third sore spot for pagans, which is the
subject for part three.

G. Cassius Nerva

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Responses coming
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:13:09 -0000

Salvete Quintus Fabius, Lucius Sinicius, and Diana,

I want to talk more with you, but just lacked the time right now.
You all make some excellent points to consider. When part three is
done I will have more time to dialogue more.

Nerva

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LUDI VICTORIA: HERCULANEUM - VILLA OF THE PAPYRI
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel=20Dugdale?= <racheledugdale@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:32:35 +0000 (GMT)

Presenting today, for your enjoyment and information,
a report on the Villa of the Papyri in Herculaneum:

http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/victoria/villa.htm

Here you can find a brief introduction to the Villa,
and references to books and websites with more
information.

This is part of an ongoing project by the Cohors
Aedilis Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, and indeed we hope
that our research will be taken up and continued by
future Curule Aediles.

Gaia Fabia Livia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	Diana Moravia-Pagan Fed Belgiu <paganfedbelgie@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 04:27:47 -0800 (PST)

Salve Lithia Cassia,

Actually, what did you mean by 'physical community'?

I am quite in tune with my female sexulaity and have
nothing against erotic dancers, bellydancers (I am
one), prostitutes, etc. etc. In fact, I believe that
these women are not afraid of their female sexuality
and this wonderful gift of femaleness that they have
received from Venus.

Whether a prostitute may be 'better' than a 'regular
woman' depends on what you're speaking about. If you
are speaking strictly about sex, then you are probably
correct. After 2 people have sex 150 times, some of
the mystery certainly goes out of the actual sex act,
but it is replaced by warmth, tenderness, trust, real
love and companionship. These things can't be bought
for any amount of money. Sex of course, can be bought
and rather inexpensively at that.

But in my opinion, prostitution ,whether legal or not
in Rome, should be left out of Nova Roma. Honestly, I
don't know how this could be implemented anyway, other
than having a sex talk chat list.

The sexual act is a sacred one, whether it is a one
night stand, a long term relationship or as part of a
sacred ritual. But if those NR's who get together have
a Roman orgie or want a Harem (or be in someone's
harem) then it is up to the individual, assuming of
course that they are above the legal age. And dear
Lithia, I think that you will be receiving a lot of
private emails from men concerning your post and more
than happy to take you up on yuor offer...

And Lithia, no offence intended (consider me as your
elder sister talking now), why don't you give yourself
to someone who loves you and cares about you? Don't
you (like every other person in the world) deserve sex
with love? Maybe you didn't intend it, but your email
came across to me as 'I want to be the prostitute of
NR'. And if you are a young girl (I haven't looked at
your NR profile yet) then you really need to be
careful what path you set your feet on.

Vale & bright blessings,
Diana Moravia Aventina


--- lithia_cassia <mscommunication@attbi.com> wrote:
> Will that be legal if and when we get a whole
> physical community
> going? I know that during the first Roman reign,
> prostitutes were
> legal and even at one point considered to be better
> than 'regular'
> women (as they were allowed to become more educated,
> own land, etc.
> in a time that most women weren't, and therefore
> provided *gasp*
> equal and stimulating conversation!). Anyway, just
> curious if this
> would be allowed in the future.
>
> Vale,
> Lithia
>
>
>


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Symbolic Animal Sacrifice
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:10:34 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "T. Cornelius Crispus"
<centuriocornelius@h...> wrote:
> Ave Strabo,
> Could you please clarify one thing for me. I don't understand how
an animal
> is symoblicly sacrificed. Could you please explain?
> Vale,
> T. Cornelius Crispus


I know you didn't ask me, and perhaps you are asking for a historical
perspective on this subject that Strabo may have some insight into,
but I happen to perform symbolic animal sacrifices for an Oracle to
Hecate Triformus that I administer, so I can answer your question.

Historically, effigy animals (and people in some places)
were "killed" or sacrificed just as you would expect- being stabbed,
burned, etc. The effigy often was prepared in some way to "enliven"
it beforehand, endowing it with a "life" or a "spirit" that would be
the true offering. It's a very standard 'sympathetic magic' type
operation; what is done symbolically in this reality has echoes of
sympathy on others; symbol and reality correlate.

In modern day, for instance, we sacrifice hounds (black or darkly
colored hounds) to Hecate at times. We use clay models, sometimes
with the spittle or tiny amounts of blood or hair of actual dogs
mixed into the clay before it is shaped. The clay is of course darkly
colored, and it is hollow. Inside these clay figures is placed any
natural red liquid or oil to act as "blood"; sometimes this has
minute amounts of actual dog's blood in it, but not often. The model
is shaped, and made quite detailed, and it is "named" and "fed"
daily, and treated in every respect as though it is a real living
breathing animal.

When the time comes to "kill" it in sacrifice, it is stabbed, and
it's blood flows out, and in ritual circumstances, this lifelike
model/symbol is used and treated in every respect as a real, living
animal. It's dismembered parts are burned or buried, or whatever.

We find that the efficacy of the whole sacrifice is increased greatly
when secondary and tertiary offerings are offered up with it. The
real point of symbolic animal sacrifice is to be true to the
tradition in a modern fashion. The theory is not modern; symbolic
sympathetic images have been used in this way for millenia.


Galus Agorius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] THE PAX DEORVM WAS BROKEN WITH GRATIANVS!
From:	GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:23:50 -0800 (PST)

SALVETE OMNES! I've been reading the various messages
concerning Roman Paganism verses Christianity, and the
fall of the Roman Empire. The PAX DEORVM which was
established between the State and the Roman people
going back to the time of Romulus and Numa was
officially and spiritually broken when the Emperor
Gratianus took the anti-Pagan measures that he did,
such as refusing funds and supports to the Vestals and
various priesthoods, and refusing to accept the Pagan
title of Pontifex Maximus and the Pagan State Religio,
thus breaking the final ties between Iuppiter, the
Gods and Roma! In his plea to the Emperor, the Pagan
Senator Symmachus warned what would happen to Roma if
Gratianus did not restore the altar of Victory and
continue the support for the State Cultus! Gratianus
did not do so, and Roma was attacked and sacked in
410, thus leading to the end of any protection of the
Gods for the State!
VALETE! GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: a quick note on animal sacrifice
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:55:18 -0000

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,

>I Hope they sue GAIA and it's suporters into
>bankruptcy.
They do a lot of good work, but sometimes they overdo it. They also
actively protest an 800 year old annual Flemish tradition of drinking
a glass of beer with a tiny little fish swimming in it.I am no longer
a member of GAIA because their frontman, Michel Van den Bossche (an
very outspoken atheist by the way) stood me up at a conference I
organized where 250 people were waiting for him to speak
(errrrrrrrrrrrrrr).

Me: >>I saw it on tv and it was truly upsetting.

>How can we ask others to
>respect our right to engage in our faith if we attempt
>to block others from performing the rites of thier
>faith?

I agree. If we want freedom of religion, we would be hypocrites if we
forbid certain religious rites & rights of others.
But seeing an animal screaming in pain makes me upset. Watching
National Geographic and seeing animals naturally kill eachother or
die, and pig/cow/chicken farms also make me upset. And I stay well
away from zoo's and petshops.
So, I'll admit to being very 'oversensitive' when I see an animal
suffering, even if I support the religious rights.
of the person causing that suffering.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:50:46 -0000

*amused*

First off, Diana, I am married and have been for over a year now, and
quite happily I might add.

Second, I wasn't offering myself, I was merely curious. I am an
anthropology student, and as such I am always curious about aspects
of civilizations and humans. I was merely wondering if Nova Romans
would be carrying on the Puritanical taint from the US into their new
nation, if one ever were to exist as a macronation (which is what I
meant by 'physical'). To the point, if we actually had a city of
Nova Roma where people could move to, would there potentially be a
brothel and would it be accepted by people?

I asked this because I wanted to see just how far Nova Roma's
citizens' love 'for everything Roman' actually went, or if peoples'
ingrained and socialized hibitiions would come out.

You have been my only response so far, so that's not much to go on,
sadly.

For the remark I made about prostitutes being 'better', I think you
may have thought that was my personal opinion. I was merely citing
something I read in a few textbooks concerning the mind set of the
Roman people (and if you hadn't noticed there was a bit of derisive
sarcasm in there as well).

But I do have another question for you - if you are in no way against
prostitution, why would you be against it as a business?



--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Diana Moravia-Pagan Fed Belgiu
<paganfedbelgie@y...> wrote:
> Salve Lithia Cassia,
>
> Actually, what did you mean by 'physical community'?
>
> I am quite in tune with my female sexulaity and have
> nothing against erotic dancers, bellydancers (I am
> one), prostitutes, etc. etc. In fact, I believe that
> these women are not afraid of their female sexuality
> and this wonderful gift of femaleness that they have
> received from Venus.
>
> Whether a prostitute may be 'better' than a 'regular
> woman' depends on what you're speaking about. If you
> are speaking strictly about sex, then you are probably
> correct. After 2 people have sex 150 times, some of
> the mystery certainly goes out of the actual sex act,
> but it is replaced by warmth, tenderness, trust, real
> love and companionship. These things can't be bought
> for any amount of money. Sex of course, can be bought
> and rather inexpensively at that.
>
> But in my opinion, prostitution ,whether legal or not
> in Rome, should be left out of Nova Roma. Honestly, I
> don't know how this could be implemented anyway, other
> than having a sex talk chat list.
>
> The sexual act is a sacred one, whether it is a one
> night stand, a long term relationship or as part of a
> sacred ritual. But if those NR's who get together have
> a Roman orgie or want a Harem (or be in someone's
> harem) then it is up to the individual, assuming of
> course that they are above the legal age. And dear
> Lithia, I think that you will be receiving a lot of
> private emails from men concerning your post and more
> than happy to take you up on yuor offer...
>
> And Lithia, no offence intended (consider me as your
> elder sister talking now), why don't you give yourself
> to someone who loves you and cares about you? Don't
> you (like every other person in the world) deserve sex
> with love? Maybe you didn't intend it, but your email
> came across to me as 'I want to be the prostitute of
> NR'. And if you are a young girl (I haven't looked at
> your NR profile yet) then you really need to be
> careful what path you set your feet on.
>
> Vale & bright blessings,
> Diana Moravia Aventina
>
>
> --- lithia_cassia <mscommunication@a...> wrote:
> > Will that be legal if and when we get a whole
> > physical community
> > going? I know that during the first Roman reign,
> > prostitutes were
> > legal and even at one point considered to be better
> > than 'regular'
> > women (as they were allowed to become more educated,
> > own land, etc.
> > in a time that most women weren't, and therefore
> > provided *gasp*
> > equal and stimulating conversation!). Anyway, just
> > curious if this
> > would be allowed in the future.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Lithia
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] presumptious
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:17:52 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
>
>Sorry III Cyrenica is listed as the garrison of Judea, in nine ad. That is
>not a Roman legio by any stretch of the imagination.

Why not? It would be strange for any legio by that date to be actually raised from Italian citizens, not at all unusual to be raised from provincial bound into the Imperium by serving for it with citizenship as an end reward. Cyrenia was a civilised area. We are not talking Gothic or Nubian auxiliaries here.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:48:05 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:

>And for the pagan, the problem is obvious: The gods did
> not save Rome. This failure on the part of the gods to save the
state
> must therefore need explanation if the religion is to maintain any
> credibility.


There is no problem to any pagan here. The Gods didn't save Rome
because ASIDE from Rome's leaders abandoning them for the jewish god
and the new usurping political religions, the Gods operate in the
universe at a higher level; they are larger strands in the web of
Fate than we; they have insights that we lack; Rome was not the end
all, be all of existance. Old Rome was a chapter in the great story
of creation. The story continues. Times were changing. They still
are. The Gods have seen this story come and go since eternal time was
conceived. They have no such human attachments to an empire in a
passing blink of time's eye; they see in greater perspectives.

The support they did give to Rome, and to all the other empires and
tribes and peoples that have come and gone throughout history was
good and powerful, and when the natural death date of an empire or a
family or a person comes, Fate is Fate. The Gods cannot change that.
But they do honor their contracts as closely as they can, and based
on the honor and duty of the humans who are on the other end of the
contract. Old Rome has fallen, but mankind still exists, and the Gods
are still there. We can still achieve power and presence from the
Gods, and they can and will help us. But we must maintain a personal
kind of internal harmony, a harmony in line with universal Nature or
Harmony, or the Gods cannot fully lend their power to us, or those
that we represent.

YES! Humans have a part to play. We have responsibilities. The Gods
won't just do it all for us.


If we wish to explore the possibility of a religious
> reason for the fall, then there are three and only three
> possibilities:
>
> 1. The gods did not save Rome because they never existed.
> 2. The gods did not save Rome because they were unable to do so.
> {Impotency}
> 3. The gods did not save Rome because they were unwilling to do so,
> due to Christianity.
>

It is not the God's job to "save" human institutions. Pagan religion
is and always was about a lot more than just propping up a state and
keeping world power. Pagan religion and the Gods have been around
LONG before "empires". You continually try to make paganism some
simple little superstition, and then try to shoot it down, by
inventing "it must have been wrong" dilemmas, based on what
those "simpleton pagans" thought.


Let's see:

Option 1 is not acceptable because the Gods do exist, and they always
did, and always will.

Option 2 is not acceptable because the Gods could have done anything
that they wanted WITHIN THE CONFINES OF FATE, which also binds the
Gods. It was not Old Rome's destiny to rule the world forever.

Fate is greater than the Gods; although some Gods have some latitude
within it, and a greater knowledge of its inner workings than others.
But Fate and Necessity are the forces that even move the Gods.

The Gods could have saved Rome, but what you fail to understand is
that some pissed off peasant's grief about Rome falling is not an
indictment of the God's failure; it is simply a human's limited and
ignorant (though natural and understandable) reaction to losing
attachments to human created institutions and orders.

And besides, you also don't seem to look at things from a multi-
dimensional perspective. How do you know that the Gods DIDN'T save
Rome? What about Nova Roma? What about the fact that Roman culture
and history is still alive, that it acted as inspiration and
foundation for western cultures that are still alive, and that many
may yet return to Roman Ways? Maybe in their own way, they DID save
Rome.



> Otherwise the pagan would have to say his gods were not
> real, or were too weak.


The Gods were and are real; they are (as far as we humans are
concerned) almighty; but what you still don't get is that they
understand universal change and the divine and secret linkage of
natural forces; they understand things in a transcendent way that
humans can only guess at, and which oracles utter as maddening
riddles that usually defy our efforts to untangle.



The pagan therefore has no choice but to
> accept option 3: Rome?s fall is to be blamed {in large part at
least}
> on Christianity and the Christians.


Nope. Christians certainly played a role, but the reality is that
your "It could only be three options" is a false dillemma. There are
many other explanations for why Rome fell, and how the Gods were
related to that.


Humans have their own will to action and choice; the Gods do not
interfere with this fact. It's part of human destiny; excepting a few
examples, the Gods CANNOT interfere with this fact. Humankind has the
fire of the Gods now; we can make decisions that affect the world and
that affect our own Fates. Humans destroyed Rome; this was ordained
in part by Fate and in part by basic human greed. Christianity was
just the final straw.

The Gods intervened as long as they could in what ways that they
could, bearing in mind their will, wisdom, and Old Rome's own Fate.

Any help they could have given or been motivated to give to Old Rome
near its end (bearing in mind that they are under no universal
obligation to help a human empire, which like every empire has a
birthday and a death day) was very likely blunted by the decadence
and sheer greed of some of the last pre-christian emporers, and later
by sheer disgust at how the empire betrayed them by accepting
christianity and marginalizing them.

Destruction is part of life. The Gods know this. Most wise humans do
as well. Empires rise and fall. The Gods are still here; they always
will be. When you think as a human thinks, you want to blame the Gods
for Nature's natural cycles and changes and Fate's will. When you see
outside of the human box, you see how everything falls into place.
Human things pass away; the Gods are always.


Galus Agorius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] AVE GNAEUS EQUITIUS MARINUS!!!!!
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:56:36 -0500

On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 09:25:32PM -0800, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:

Salve, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus amice!

> The fair and lovely Praetrix Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> writes:
>
> > Congratulations colleague et amicus on the winning
> > of this notable award.
>
> Thank you ma'am. It required a fair amount of skull
> sweat, given the situation the Roman forces were
> placed into. All things considered I think our
> esteemed colleague Quintus Fabius Maximus is right,
> and that the wisest choice is to stay away from Cannae
> entirely. But the rules didn't allow that.

That was pretty much my take on the entire conflict. However, you seem
to have done a masterly job of planning given the constraints, and I
congratulate you with all my heart on winning this award.

Now, all I have to do is finish that time machine I've been building...
:)


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mendacem memorem esse oportet.
A liar needs a good memory.
-- Quintilianus, "De institutione oratoria"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:58:43 -0800 (PST)

Salve,
We are likely to obtain land that is still under the
soverngity of a Macronation long before we have a
independant nation, so at first we will be bound by
some Macronations laws on Prostitution.

I See no reason why it shouldn't be legal in Nova Roma
once we do become an independant nation however,
though it might be a good idea to require that they
have regular checkups as a public health measure
against the spread of VD.

We may also want to follow our ancestor's lead and
require they wear a Red Toga while practicing thier
profession.

--- lithia_cassia <mscommunication@attbi.com> wrote:
> Will that be legal if and when we get a whole
> physical community
> going? I know that during the first Roman reign,
> prostitutes were
> legal and even at one point considered to be better
> than 'regular'
> women (as they were allowed to become more educated,
> own land, etc.
> in a time that most women weren't, and therefore
> provided *gasp*
> equal and stimulating conversation!). Anyway, just
> curious if this
> would be allowed in the future.
>
> Vale,
> Lithia
>
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:31:45 -0000

[quote]
> 1. The gods did not save Rome because they never existed.
> 2. The gods did not save Rome because they were unable to do so.
> {Impotency}
> 3. The gods did not save Rome because they were unwilling to do so,
> due to Christianity.
[/quote]

Riiiight. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" is
such a simplistic question. If you are one who believes in Gods, or
even the nature of Gods, then it should be obvious that as a major
deity of the heavens, a God just might have more important things to
take care of than some silly little nation that is on and off in the
blink of a millenial eye.

Do we notice the important goings on of houseflies? Do we care what
dramas they may be enduring as they fly endlessly in a circle about
our ceiling? No, we don't give it a second thought, and if their
buzzing becomes too annoying, we squash them.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:11:07 -0800 (PST)

--- Decimus Iunius Silanus <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> To carry our 'love of things Roman' to the nth
> degree
> would require the legalisation of slavery, amongst
> other things which modern society considers
> abhorrent.

Salve,
There is no need to even consider slavery as an
option. Even if we decided to allow it, who would be
enslaved?

If we attempted to capture slaves from another nation,
we would likely face an armed invasion from the nation
who's citizens we enslaved, and even the weakest of
Macronations would wipe us out in an afternoon. Even
if we were a strong power we would likely face an
alliance of nations bent on destroying us.

This would only leave the option of enslaving each
other, and Roman law took a very dim view of enslaving
a free Roman citizen.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:20:30 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@a...> wrote:
>
> [quote]

> Riiiight. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" is
> such a simplistic question. If you are one who believes in Gods,
or
> even the nature of Gods, then it should be obvious that as a major
> deity of the heavens, a God just might have more important things
to
> take care of than some silly little nation that is on and off in
the
> blink of a millenial eye.
>
> Do we notice the important goings on of houseflies? Do we care what
> dramas they may be enduring as they fly endlessly in a circle about
> our ceiling? No, we don't give it a second thought, and if their
> buzzing becomes too annoying, we squash them.

Salvete omnes,

Just an amusing little true note here. Some fellow in America had his
house destroyed by a Tornado. Now the insurance company would not
cover him because they classified the tradgedy as an "act of God". He
went forward on this matter and sued his church!

Regards - Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:37:19 +0000 (GMT)

Salve Lithia Cassia,

>I asked this because I wanted to see just how far
>Nova Roma's citizens' love 'for everything Roman'
>actually went, or if peoples' ingrained and
>socialized hibitiions would come out.

Surely it is only natural for our 'love of things
Roman' to be tempered by our socialisation into the
21st century. Else, the prostitution issue that you
raise would be merely the tip of the iceberg in any
physical Nova Roman society that may exist.

To carry our 'love of things Roman' to the nth degree
would require the legalisation of slavery, amongst
other things which modern society considers abhorrent.
In addition, our female magistrates would be required
to lay down their offices forthwith and retire from
public life.

If the Rome of antiquita still existed, it would have
evolved along with society in general. Modern day
Romans would not, I very much doubt, continue to wear
tunics in every day life. A 'love of things Roman'
does not mean that we need to revert our physical and
moral code to the Roman society of old. We are, after
all, Nova Roma...New Rome!

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:40:30 -0000

>
Salvete Lihia, Diana et omnes,

I was addressing your letter Lithia but I see that Decimus hit the
nail on the head and covered all my points so they need not be
repeated. I just wanted to mention 1 point Diana brought up.
According to a Sex Therapist on Tv last month, she said when one is
leaves their partner, commits infidelity with another the sex with
the new person is much better, more passionate, in fact out of this
world for the first 6 months and then things begin to simmer down
again. 6 months would be more or less 150 x so she certainly backs
Diana on that point.

Being married to a Latin American lady, I spend a fair bit of time in
the community. There are about 25,000 Latinos living in our city.
When someone does something naughty or runs around on the partner,
the whole Latin world knows about it here within several weeks. Our
NR population is less than 2000 souls. Such an institution would make
us a small town Peyton Place. When our population is 100 fold more
perhaps things will be safer for thosr who wish to indulge in such
activities.

Valete bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Salve Lithia Cassia,
>
> >I asked this because I wanted to see just how far
> >Nova Roma's citizens' love 'for everything Roman'
> >actually went, or if peoples' ingrained and
> >socialized hibitiions would come out.
>
> Surely it is only natural for our 'love of things
> Roman' to be tempered by our socialisation into the
> 21st century. Else, the prostitution issue that you
> raise would be merely the tip of the iceberg in any
> physical Nova Roman society that may exist.
>
> To carry our 'love of things Roman' to the nth degree
> would require the legalisation of slavery, amongst
> other things which modern society considers abhorrent.
> In addition, our female magistrates would be required
> to lay down their offices forthwith and retire from
> public life.
>
> If the Rome of antiquita still existed, it would have
> evolved along with society in general. Modern day
> Romans would not, I very much doubt, continue to wear
> tunics in every day life. A 'love of things Roman'
> does not mean that we need to revert our physical and
> moral code to the Roman society of old. We are, after
> all, Nova Roma...New Rome!
>
> Vale
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:38:54 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@a...> wrote:


> [quote]
> > 1. The gods did not save Rome because they never existed.
> > 2. The gods did not save Rome because they were unable to do so.
> > {Impotency}
> > 3. The gods did not save Rome because they were unwilling to do
so,
> > due to Christianity.
> [/quote]


> Riiiight. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?"



Well, Lithia Cassia, let's look at the 'only possible' options for
explaining why our modern day's popular God lets bad things happen to
good people:


1. God lets bad things happen to good people because he doesn't exist.

2. God lets bad things happen to good people because he is unable to
stop them from happening. (Impotency)

3. God lets bad things happen to good people because he is unwilling
to do so, or doesn't care if they happen.



Hmmmm.....


Galus Agorius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:20:05 +0000 (GMT)

Salve Luci Sicini,

>There is no need to even consider slavery as an
>option.

I agree wholeheartedly of course. I was merely making
the point that if we were to follow ancient Rome's
moral and legal code to the letter, then slavery would
by necessity need to be legalised. My point was, that
this is unnecessary, just as legalising prostitution
is not necessary solely because it was legal in
ancient Rome.

Whether slavery or prostitution are legalised in any
physical Nova Roma state, is a matter for the senate
and the people of Rome to decide. In the first
instance, I very much hope not, and in the second, I
couldn't care less to be honest.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:48:17 -0800

Avete Omnes,

You forgot Free Will. G-d created the world and everything in it and allows us the ability to <censor> it up.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: g_agorius_taurinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:38 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire



--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@a...> wrote:


> [quote]
> > 1. The gods did not save Rome because they never existed.
> > 2. The gods did not save Rome because they were unable to do so.
> > {Impotency}
> > 3. The gods did not save Rome because they were unwilling to do
so,
> > due to Christianity.
> [/quote]


> Riiiight. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?"



Well, Lithia Cassia, let's look at the 'only possible' options for
explaining why our modern day's popular God lets bad things happen to
good people:


1. God lets bad things happen to good people because he doesn't exist.

2. God lets bad things happen to good people because he is unable to
stop them from happening. (Impotency)

3. God lets bad things happen to good people because he is unwilling
to do so, or doesn't care if they happen.



Hmmmm.....


Galus Agorius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"Barry Smith" <bsmith3121@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:52:37 -0500

I hate to even say this, but I'd like to put in my two cents worth: I live
in the U.S. and have tried to steer away from the "puritanical taint" as you
describe it. I may be in the minority, but I believe that prostitution
should be legalized in the U.S. and other countries as well. We all know it
occurs - we may as well make it legal, tax it and make sure the prostitutes
are healthy. It is a moral issue and it is extremely difficult to legislate
morality.

Not to say that I would ever utilize the services of a prostitute - I have
been happily married for 23 years and my wife and I still still enjoy an
active and loving sex life. There are, however, those that would use the
services of a prostitute. Prostitution has been an important part of the
world's religions dating back to Sumeria and Egypt. I believe that it was
also an important part of a Roman sect, but I may be wrong.

I say legalize it and tax it. We could use the revenue to buy land.

Caius Titinius Varus



Integrity is Paramount


Second, I wasn't offering myself, I was merely curious. I am an
anthropology student, and as such I am always curious about aspects
of civilizations and humans. I was merely wondering if Nova Romans
would be carrying on the Puritanical taint from the US into their new
nation, if one ever were to exist as a macronation (which is what I
meant by 'physical'). To the point, if we actually had a city of
Nova Roma where people could move to, would there potentially be a
brothel and would it be accepted by people?

I asked this because I wanted to see just how far Nova Roma's
citizens' love 'for everything Roman' actually went, or if peoples'
ingrained and socialized hibitiions would come out.

You have been my only response so far, so that's not much to go on,
sadly.



>From: "lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
>Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:50:46 -0000
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:07:08 -0000

Salvete Diana et Lithia,

This is a very interestring conversation and you both made some
excellent points on this matter. Diana's point about sex after 150
times between 2 people usually evolves from the hot passion into more
love and caring was varified in my mind because a few months ago a
sex therapist on TV was talking about infidelty. She said when you
leave or betray your partner and meet a new one the passion and sex
are usually much greater - for more or less 6 months (+, - 1 -2 acts
a day)then things begin to fizzel and fall into place or more routine.

There are a few things to consider with Nova Roma. First of all our
population for the time being and near future is too small. Everyone
more or less knows one another like in a small town. It would be very
embarassing for anyone involved in that to avoid being detected. For
example I'm married to a Latin American woman here. The population of
Latinos in our city is more or less 20,000. Whenever somebody does
something naughty it seems that within a few months everyone knows
about it - especially sexcapades. I think Nova Roma's population
would need to reach a few hundred thousand to a million before
prostitutes and their customers would feel safe in the business.

Just remember too that the main goal of Nova Roma is the restoration
of the Republic with a strong emphasis on Religio Romano and the
ideal Roman virtues. As stated by our Government, the best things of
that era have been adopted but some of the older things have been
eliminated. For example we are not going to have real gladitorial
games where real people and animals are used abused and killed, women
like both of you are not going to be required to stay home, mind the
house,your partner or husband and only exercise politics through your
husband by way of the bedroom and finally actually cruxcify criminals
like those Maryland snipers. Similarily it may be doubtful if our NR
government would want to encourage or legalize prostitution any time
soon if it would prove to be a little too disruptive for our small
population.

Yours respectfully

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:46:31 -0000

You make excellent points about slavery and toga wearing (both of
which I agree would be impractical and in the case of slavery
detestable). However, I do not see what is wrong with prostitution,
other than the stigma that the U.S. as a Puritanical nation has put
on it.

I know a lot of people think of whores and they think of degenerate,
ill-educated women out on the streets begging. They think of them as
getting beaten by pimps, etc. Most of this is because they ARE
desperate because their profession has been outlawed, and because
the 'pimps' have the law essentially on their side, while prostitutes
have almost no legal protection whatsoever. It is disgusting and
backwards.

However, in Nevada, there exists the Mustang Ranch, which is a
federally mandated brothel. The women there are pricey and they suit
a wide variety of fancies. They get regular health check ups and are
always protected. They are in the peak of physical health, because
they have HEALTH CARE benefits (something the average streetwalker
does not have), they never go hungry, dirty, or have to suffer
through beatings or rapings because they have the law on their side
in this case. That is how it would be in Nova Roma, were such an
institution created.

I see no reason why it SHOULDN'T be legal. To me, that's like saying
hair salons should be illegal.


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Decimus Iunius Silanus <danedwardsuk@y...>
wrote:
> Salve Lithia Cassia,
>
> >I asked this because I wanted to see just how far
> >Nova Roma's citizens' love 'for everything Roman'
> >actually went, or if peoples' ingrained and
> >socialized hibitiions would come out.
>
> Surely it is only natural for our 'love of things
> Roman' to be tempered by our socialisation into the
> 21st century. Else, the prostitution issue that you
> raise would be merely the tip of the iceberg in any
> physical Nova Roman society that may exist.
>
> To carry our 'love of things Roman' to the nth degree
> would require the legalisation of slavery, amongst
> other things which modern society considers abhorrent.
> In addition, our female magistrates would be required
> to lay down their offices forthwith and retire from
> public life.
>
> If the Rome of antiquita still existed, it would have
> evolved along with society in general. Modern day
> Romans would not, I very much doubt, continue to wear
> tunics in every day life. A 'love of things Roman'
> does not mean that we need to revert our physical and
> moral code to the Roman society of old. We are, after
> all, Nova Roma...New Rome!
>
> Vale
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:56:18 -0600 (CST)

> You forgot Free Will. G-d created the world and everything in it and allows us the
> ability to <censor> it up.

That would fall under the "unwilling" theory; the gods are able to intervene, but
choose not to, for whatever reason (such as respecting human choice).

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Christanity and the loss of the Western Provinces
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:51:09 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

Personally I don't view the spread of the Christian
faith as the cause of the collapse of Roman rule in
the western provinces. I Do look at it's spread as a
symptom of the problems that caused the end of Roman
rule.

Christanity was only one of several mystry religions
that were becomming popular in Roma. Others like the
Isis cult and Mithraism were also gaining in
popularity. This was part of a general shift in
attitudes under the Empire. Having "control" over
one's fate in the next life became more important to
people as control over one's fate in the present life
was lost to a Roman state that grew more dicitorial
with the passage of time.

As the Roman people lost intrest in this world, to
Christianity and to other Mystry cults, they lost
intrest in defending a worldly state forcing Roma to
become dependant first on provincials then foriegn
mercenaries to man the legions. The economic base
started to decline as the cost of the legions rose
with no new conquests to offset the expense of
maintaining a large army. Ever higher taxes to support
the Legions and the grain dole along with decreasing
intrest in this world helped drive the Roman economy
into the ground.

The Eastern Provinces were wealthier, both in manpower
and in money, so they were better able to withsatnd
the effects of a declining ecomony and a man power
shortage and to get past the crisis of the 5th
Century.

Christanity was not the only force that led to a
decline in honors to the Gods of Roma. The other
mystry cults weren't as unfriendly to the Gods as the
Christians, but people became more intrested in
honoring Mithra, Isis, and Bacchus (all foriegn Gods)
than in paying Honors to the Roman Gods. The Imperial
cult played a role too as it diverted honors from the
Gods to the Emperors. Slavery played a role too as it
caused an ever increasing percentage of the
population, both slave and the citizen decendants of
slaves to look to other Gods or to be cut off from the
Gods of thier ancestors. Many old Roman families died
out or were wiped out by Emperors who feared them as a
rival, or who simply wanted to steal thier wealth to
finince themselves, and this caused many privite rites
to cease being performed.

There were many forces that led to the "fall" of Roma
and the end of the Religio Romania as a major
religion, and the Christians certainly were not the
only "cause" of it.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:00:54 -0800

Not exactly, but then we are getting into philosophical and religious discussion.... <g>

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire




> You forgot Free Will. G-d created the world and everything in it and allows us the
> ability to <censor> it up.

That would fall under the "unwilling" theory; the gods are able to intervene, but
choose not to, for whatever reason (such as respecting human choice).

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"scott dolleck" <billgatesson@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:11:29 -0700

>Salvete omnes,
>
>Just an amusing little true note here. Some fellow in America had his
>house destroyed by a Tornado. Now the insurance company would not
>cover him because they classified the tradgedy as an "act of God". He
>went forward on this matter and sued his church!
>
>Regards - Quintus
>

Salvete,

An interesting hikoo that goes with this is:

Now that my house has burned down,
I have a much better veiw of the moon.

Lucius Avisius Seneca

_________________________________________________________________
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN!
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Repeat Posting
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:23:02 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

I see that Yahoo may be a little screwed up today. I sent one posting
on prostitution half an hour ago, canceled it but it just showed up
now. I sent another to answer Lithia's question about morality police
and it is still in cyberspace. My note on the Fall of Rome went
through instantly. I've been a good boy and not moderated so
something is off its rocker today. Sorry if there's cofusion in the
order of my postings.

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Prostitution in Nova-Roma
From:	"aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:26:56 -0000

I have to say, I was very surprised to get up this
morning and see that the first message of the day from
NR had THIS as its subject. (g)

As long as prostitution is handled decently, as it was
in Texas' Chicken Ranch or in this Mustang Ranch place
in Nevada, I would have little objection to it.

I would _not_ want to run it like it was run in ancient
Rome. I've been inside the brothel in Pompeii. Very
uncomfortable and very tiny rooms. No privacy. I
_presume_ those stone couches had cushions on them, way
back when... If not, I pity the prostitutes!

---
Renata Corva

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Christanity and the loss of the Western Provinces
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:38:47 -0000

Salve Sicini,

I have pretty well said all I can and should over the last several
days about the Fall of Rome and religious subjects. However your
letter just reminded me of one my issues that was not addressd yet.
Would you and anyone else who wants to please read my message no 3813
regarding Emperor worship. There was tons of letters posted sice then
and I can see how it could be overlooked.

Regards

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Personally I don't view the spread of the Christian
> faith as the cause of the collapse of Roman rule in
> the western provinces. I Do look at it's spread as a
> symptom of the problems that caused the end of Roman
> rule.
>
> Christanity was only one of several mystry religions
> that were becomming popular in Roma. Others like the
> Isis cult and Mithraism were also gaining in
> popularity. This was part of a general shift in
> attitudes under the Empire. Having "control" over
> one's fate in the next life became more important to
> people as control over one's fate in the present life
> was lost to a Roman state that grew more dicitorial
> with the passage of time.
>
> As the Roman people lost intrest in this world, to
> Christianity and to other Mystry cults, they lost
> intrest in defending a worldly state forcing Roma to
> become dependant first on provincials then foriegn
> mercenaries to man the legions. The economic base
> started to decline as the cost of the legions rose
> with no new conquests to offset the expense of
> maintaining a large army. Ever higher taxes to support
> the Legions and the grain dole along with decreasing
> intrest in this world helped drive the Roman economy
> into the ground.
>
> The Eastern Provinces were wealthier, both in manpower
> and in money, so they were better able to withsatnd
> the effects of a declining ecomony and a man power
> shortage and to get past the crisis of the 5th
> Century.
>
> Christanity was not the only force that led to a
> decline in honors to the Gods of Roma. The other
> mystry cults weren't as unfriendly to the Gods as the
> Christians, but people became more intrested in
> honoring Mithra, Isis, and Bacchus (all foriegn Gods)
> than in paying Honors to the Roman Gods. The Imperial
> cult played a role too as it diverted honors from the
> Gods to the Emperors. Slavery played a role too as it
> caused an ever increasing percentage of the
> population, both slave and the citizen decendants of
> slaves to look to other Gods or to be cut off from the
> Gods of thier ancestors. Many old Roman families died
> out or were wiped out by Emperors who feared them as a
> rival, or who simply wanted to steal thier wealth to
> finince themselves, and this caused many privite rites
> to cease being performed.
>
> There were many forces that led to the "fall" of Roma
> and the end of the Religio Romania as a major
> religion, and the Christians certainly were not the
> only "cause" of it.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> "Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
> (A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
> Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:09:46 -0000

Salve Lithia,

Are you insinuating,
then, that if a woman or man were to indulge in sharing a bed with a
known prostitute, that that person would be shunned in the
community?

No, but like the tabloids, the small communities often have big
mouths and when his wife (assuming many of them would not like it)
and family find out through the talk and gossip, a slip of the
inebriated tongue the man could lose his estate, family and much of
his money to the lawyers and left on the street with no sestaries. I
am saying that in a much larger population it is easier for one to be
more discrete and out of sight. Of course, this idea does not apply
to singles or other couples that don't mind swinging.

Quintus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:53:30 -0000

Wow, so Nova Roma comes with its own morality police too? Who says
that only married or otherwise taken individuals are the only ones
who indulge in solicited sex? Who says that there aren't couples who
are very open about their sexual relationship and realize that sex
does not and never will equal love and respect? Are you insinuating,
then, that if a woman or man were to indulge in sharing a bed with a
known prostitute, that that person would be shunned in the
community? Outrageous. This is sex, people, not fricking murder. I
have such a hard time believing that the mere base and animalistic
act of mating, which is such a strong and natural urge in humans,
would be looked at in such a light by intelligent individuals, which
I have seen you all to be.

The simple point is this: If you have a partner & want to be with
just them, then that is good for you. Keep at it. However, if your
neighbor, sister, boss, whoever, wants to pay to have sex, then who
cares? Do you always keep such an eye on everyone around you? Do
you not think that people have the simple right to pursue happiness
as long as it is not doing anyone else any harm? And by harm I don't
mean "But it would traumatize me forever to know that so and so is
having sex for money!" I mean harm as in "Having sex with that
prostitute actually caused the world to collapse." It is just sex.
Are we not all old enough to deal with this?


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> >
> Salvete Lihia, Diana et omnes,
>
> I was addressing your letter Lithia but I see that Decimus hit the
> nail on the head and covered all my points so they need not be
> repeated. I just wanted to mention 1 point Diana brought up.
> According to a Sex Therapist on Tv last month, she said when one is
> leaves their partner, commits infidelity with another the sex with
> the new person is much better, more passionate, in fact out of this
> world for the first 6 months and then things begin to simmer down
> again. 6 months would be more or less 150 x so she certainly backs
> Diana on that point.
>
> Being married to a Latin American lady, I spend a fair bit of time
in
> the community. There are about 25,000 Latinos living in our city.
> When someone does something naughty or runs around on the partner,
> the whole Latin world knows about it here within several weeks. Our
> NR population is less than 2000 souls. Such an institution would
make
> us a small town Peyton Place. When our population is 100 fold more
> perhaps things will be safer for thosr who wish to indulge in such
> activities.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
> Salve Lithia Cassia,
> >
> > >I asked this because I wanted to see just how far
> > >Nova Roma's citizens' love 'for everything Roman'
> > >actually went, or if peoples' ingrained and
> > >socialized hibitiions would come out.
> >
> > Surely it is only natural for our 'love of things
> > Roman' to be tempered by our socialisation into the
> > 21st century. Else, the prostitution issue that you
> > raise would be merely the tip of the iceberg in any
> > physical Nova Roman society that may exist.
> >
> > To carry our 'love of things Roman' to the nth degree
> > would require the legalisation of slavery, amongst
> > other things which modern society considers abhorrent.
> > In addition, our female magistrates would be required
> > to lay down their offices forthwith and retire from
> > public life.
> >
> > If the Rome of antiquita still existed, it would have
> > evolved along with society in general. Modern day
> > Romans would not, I very much doubt, continue to wear
> > tunics in every day life. A 'love of things Roman'
> > does not mean that we need to revert our physical and
> > moral code to the Roman society of old. We are, after
> > all, Nova Roma...New Rome!
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Decimus Iunius Silanus
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> > http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma: Rome Evolves
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:02:37 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Decimus Iunius Silanus <danedwardsuk@y...>
wrote:

> Salve Lithia Cassia,

> If the Rome of antiquita still existed, it would have
> evolved along with society in general. Modern day
> Romans would not, I very much doubt, continue to wear
> tunics in every day life. A 'love of things Roman'
> does not mean that we need to revert our physical and
> moral code to the Roman society of old. We are, after
> all, Nova Roma...New Rome!



I totally agree with this statement. I'm sure that every mature
person here agrees that the last thing that we can or should do is
revert back to "ancient Rome" in every way- as this would include
resurrecting harmful practises such as slavery, among other things-

So why is it that we can all agree about this, but certain ones of us
still think that we should practise the Religio as it was done
thousands of years ago? Why does everything ELSE evolve, except the
Religio? Sounds like we have some people who, against all logic, just
want to kill animals (and would they favor sacrificing people, in
times of extreme crisis, as the Old Romans did?) because it touches
some dark freudian chord in them, or some deeper, darker urge.



G.A.T.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"IVLIA VOPISCA" <iulia_uopisca@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:23:43 -0000

IVLIA VOPISCA QVIRITIBVS SALVTEM:

The essential point of Cassius Nerva's discussion here seems to be to
absolve Christians, Christianity, and the aggressive promotion of the
Nazarene religion for any responsibility in the ultimate collapse of
Roman civilization ... therefore, let's not even consider the effects
of this proselytizing movement upon society in the two centuries
prior to Constantine's Edict of Milan. That is the specious part of
the argumentation right there. It's like saying that the temple
really isn't on fire until the flames are leaping through the roof
and bucket brigades are in place.

Sorry, that won't work, any more than trying to insist that
Christianity is the sole cause of Roman collapse. Indeed all
civilizations, like individual persons, are mortal, though on a
larger time scale... actually victims of their own growth, success,
and inherent life cycle; in the wider perspective it is the legacy of
accomplishment and quality of offspring that matter.

The difficulty caused by the nature of Christianity and similar
movements is in the inherent separatism that did not permit
incorporation within the existing religious/social matrix of Roman
civilization. One can honor Iuppiter, Isis, and Apollo without
conflict. Notwithstanding the practice of a Severus Alexander, with
Christ one is forced to choose between the living world and its order
or the "coming Kingdom of God" which is advocated to replace it.
For many this was a very attractive prospect, but it divided families
and it divided society in the Roman world... from the earliest
appearance of Christians on the scene, even in the Antonine period,
decades before Commodus. It would have been a totally different
matter if a Roman Pontiff of Christus could have coexisted within the
structures of cosmopolitan syncretism, perhaps the vision of Flavius
Claudius Julianus... but this was not to be. In theory it
always "could have been", but separatism is its own raison d'etre.

Fronto, the tutor and friend of Aurelius, had many hysterical
misconceptions of Christianity, but parobably was on target in seeing
Christians as a subversive body, "...garrulous in dark corners ...
despise temples as if they were tombs... spit upon the Gods... laugh
at our sacred rites" ... in short, a part of something other, wedded
to its own victory over traditonal Roman spirituality and the foreign
cults compatible with it owing to their genuine ecumenical outlook
and lack of separatism. What happens to a building if 20, 30, then 40
percent of its supporting structure is converted to "another path" ?
It will of course be weakened and not as cohesive.

It is fair to state that when the "established order" has failed to
adequately care for the education and welfare of its own poorer and
disaffected citizens that the floodgates are wide open to any
ideology, religion, or movement that can aggressively promise great
rewards "later" and a certain emotional comfort and attention in
the "here and now". Certainly the classical world was vulnerable in
this area. If my reward is to come without need of intensive
cultivation over years, but rather simple profession of belief... it
sounds compelling at first consideration, yes? But I was raised in
the Christian religion and felt something lacking there; it did not
satify me personally, and by a long process of exploration I have
returned to the kind of spiritual cultivation favored by my remote
ancestors. I don't begrudge anyone else their personal choice,
especially in this age when Christian civilization is long past its
own zenith, now in twilight.

VALETE, OMNES!



--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:
> CHRISTIANITY AND THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE
>
> With the death of the emperor Antoninus Pius, the last great era of
> Roman peace can be said to have come to an end. Rome had reached
it?s
> peak, and from then on, the slow process of decay and collapse
began.
> It has been convenient to date the beginning of the Fall to the
reign
> of Commodus, who ascended to the purple in 180, but the first signs
of
> trouble from outside could be said to be the barbarian invasions
> during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. For our purposes, let us
follow
> convention and take 180 CE as our starting date...

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:31:46 -0000

I personally see nothing morally or ethically wrong with any woman
choosing to engage in acts of prostitution of her own free will, with
no coercion, and with full knowledge of the implications of her
choices.

For too long, sex and sexuality (especially female sex and sexuality)
has been repressed and placed under bankrupt moralistic constraints;
sexuality in general has been buried beneath mountains of puritanical
absurdity and mind bending false guilt.

I see women's natural power in their beauty; I see life embodied in
their forms, and furthermore their unique ability to shape and
nurture life, should they so choose. Women have the power to inspire
the deepest emotions in men, and finally, (let's just be honest) I
feel that they have command of Nature's most important, venerable and
endearing act.

I think that sexuality of any kind that does not violate the rights
of another person is no matter for state or temple to get involved
with. If an adult woman wants to have sex with a man for money, so be
it.

If and when prostitution is instituted as a legal profession, it
should be regulated and kept healthy and safe, of course, like any
other profession, for the safety of all.


Galus Agorius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Emperor Worship
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:01:44 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,


> 1)I see Religo Romano was related to the earlier Greek religion.
Was
> deification of a human being such as a political leader done in
> Greece eg. was Alexander the Great made a God?


In European Paganism, Religion and Rulership always coincide.

Across the Indo-European world, and elsewhere, the Genius of Rulers
were almost always seen as special, divine, or holy in some manner.
Most people had rites for endowing them with such divine honors (the
Northern and British concept of "Sacred Kingship" is just one example
of this) The semitic ideas of "Priest Kings", the Fact that Rome had
the Highest Political Ruler of the Land also being the Pontifex
Maximus. Chieftans in the North traced their lineages back to Woden
or Frey or Tyr or Rig, and in the Celtic countries Gollamh, or Bile
or Lugh; In the Aeneid, Aeneas had Godly parentage as well. Egyptian
rulers were seen as having the same Ka as Osiris, or one of the Gods-
(Ka was the Egyptian equovalent of the Roman 'Genuis').

Many Roman emporers traced family lines back to the Gods. This idea
is everywhere. It goes back to the root-notion that human order
should perfectly reflect divine order; the Gods had a king or
chieftan, and so did the human tribe. The human chieftan modeled
himself off the divine chieftan, and so became a visible symbol of
the divine on earth.


> 2 In Ancient Rome was deification of a living human really part of
> Religio Romano. Augustus Caesar who was really great and really
Rome
> in my opinion, never asked to be deified and had no say in the
matter.
> When some of the other infamous Emperors came along were they in
fact
> for real as far as the Religo was concerned or were they actually
> false in terms of the religious theology?


I'm sure that the average early Roman thought that the Genius of
mythical heroes and the early kings were at least descended from the
Gods; they certainly believed these people at least possess a unique
destiny or power as a ruler- I don't guess any of us will ever know
how the early Romans really thought about that.

I do know that in the Empire, yes, some very bad rulers forced people
to worship THEM as Gods, and that is a bit freaky. I myself believe
that the Genius of all bloodlines comes from the Gods, and I have no
trouble exalting the Genius of a person who is chosen to represent
order and divine rulership over a group of people, so long as that
person is virtuous and faithful, and does what is right.



> 3) If they were not really gods as far as the Ancient Romans were
> concerned then perhaps the persecutions were unfair.


You mean the persecutions of Christians? The Law was the Law, and the
Gods were still real. The christians didn't stop at just protesting
the possible corrupt deification of the Emporer or his excesses. They
wanted to overthrow everything- they mocked the holy Gods, who had no
part to play in any human corruption, and they mocked tradition and
authority. They shunned longstanding norms, which were actually godo
things that have now been lost in this world- such as tolerance for
many faiths, etc. They committed what amounted to Treason. They
disobeyed other laws. No government can allow a sizable minority to
do such things and not answer it, especially when times are already
dangerously unstable.


GAT

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:31:12 -0700

Salve Lithia,

I think it's not the fact that we aren't old enough to handle the question.
It's the fact that it's a "deep" question, and I can only speak
For myself on this. It took me a while to ponder before I could respond
actually. And I am one for female empowerment ,
Your question can be divided into many answers/thoughts. Here are my
thoughts on this, if prostitution is made legal in this Macronational
Nova Roman Shangri-La. Would I be concerned if women were being raped on the
streets and be left to wander around with who knows what kind of disease?
Darn Skippy I would! Now, if prostitution were legalized with men and
women paying a tax to perform this profession like the normal
Individual with some form of health care? My mind would be a bit at ease,
does that rule out the danger element? No. Does that rule out what an
outsider might think will be positive? Not really. Does that allow one to
be an individual in society where it's slightly conformed? Most definitely.
So you see Lithia, what you ask isn't as easy, as a simple "Yes" or "No". So
I'm pretty much half& half on the subject. But please do not take it
offensively, I found your question to be most Refreshing to the brain.

Bene Vale,
Aeternia



-----Original Message-----
From: lithia_cassia [mailto:mscommunication@attbi.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:54 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma

Wow, so Nova Roma comes with its own morality police too?
Who says
that only married or otherwise taken individuals are the
only ones
who indulge in solicited sex? Who says that there aren't
couples who
are very open about their sexual relationship and realize
that sex
does not and never will equal love and respect? Are you
insinuating,
then, that if a woman or man were to indulge in sharing a
bed with a
known prostitute, that that person would be shunned in the
community? Outrageous. This is sex, people, not fricking
murder. I
have such a hard time believing that the mere base and
animalistic
act of mating, which is such a strong and natural urge in
humans,
would be looked at in such a light by intelligent
individuals, which
I have seen you all to be.

The simple point is this: If you have a partner & want to be
with
just them, then that is good for you. Keep at it. However,
if your
neighbor, sister, boss, whoever, wants to pay to have sex,
then who
cares? Do you always keep such an eye on everyone around
you? Do
you not think that people have the simple right to pursue
happiness
as long as it is not doing anyone else any harm? And by harm
I don't
mean "But it would traumatize me forever to know that so and
so is
having sex for money!" I mean harm as in "Having sex with
that
prostitute actually caused the world to collapse." It is
just sex.
Are we not all old enough to deal with this?


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...>
wrote:
> >
> Salvete Lihia, Diana et omnes,
>
> I was addressing your letter Lithia but I see that
Decimus hit the
> nail on the head and covered all my points so they need
not be
> repeated. I just wanted to mention 1 point Diana brought
up.
> According to a Sex Therapist on Tv last month, she said
when one is
> leaves their partner, commits infidelity with another the
sex with
> the new person is much better, more passionate, in fact
out of this
> world for the first 6 months and then things begin to
simmer down
> again. 6 months would be more or less 150 x so she
certainly backs
> Diana on that point.
>
> Being married to a Latin American lady, I spend a fair bit
of time
in
> the community. There are about 25,000 Latinos living in
our city.
> When someone does something naughty or runs around on the
partner,
> the whole Latin world knows about it here within several
weeks. Our
> NR population is less than 2000 souls. Such an institution
would
make
> us a small town Peyton Place. When our population is 100
fold more
> perhaps things will be safer for thosr who wish to indulge
in such
> activities.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
> Salve Lithia Cassia,
> >
> > >I asked this because I wanted to see just how far
> > >Nova Roma's citizens' love 'for everything Roman'
> > >actually went, or if peoples' ingrained and
> > >socialized hibitiions would come out.
> >
> > Surely it is only natural for our 'love of things
> > Roman' to be tempered by our socialisation into the
> > 21st century. Else, the prostitution issue that you
> > raise would be merely the tip of the iceberg in any
> > physical Nova Roman society that may exist.
> >
> > To carry our 'love of things Roman' to the nth degree
> > would require the legalisation of slavery, amongst
> > other things which modern society considers abhorrent.
> > In addition, our female magistrates would be required
> > to lay down their offices forthwith and retire from
> > public life.
> >
> > If the Rome of antiquita still existed, it would have
> > evolved along with society in general. Modern day
> > Romans would not, I very much doubt, continue to wear
> > tunics in every day life. A 'love of things Roman'
> > does not mean that we need to revert our physical and
> > moral code to the Roman society of old. We are, after
> > all, Nova Roma...New Rome!
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Decimus Iunius Silanus
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> > http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Emperor Worship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:03:45 -0000

Salve Taurine,

Interesting points you made and thank you for sharing your knowledge
on this.

The only other thing is about the Emperors like Caligula, Nero,
Comodos or other Idi -Amin like emperors etc. Do you think they were
contradicting, insuting or blaspheming themselves and their own God
ancestors by their excesses, evil deeds, and not following the Roman
virtues? These guys killed a lot of their own pagan practicing
people. I am not refering to Christians on this point. How would the
Gods of Rome view them and actually being from gods ordained or
related to gods, could they be punished in the afterlife by their own
peers according to Religio Romano? I think you partially addressed
this below when you were saying you would accept genius if they lived
good virtous lives but would you please elaborate a little on the
negative side?

Thanks - Quintus



--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "g_agorius_taurinus"
<g_agorius_taurinus@y...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes,
>
>
> > 1)I see Religo Romano was related to the earlier Greek religion.
> Was
> > deification of a human being such as a political leader done in
> > Greece eg. was Alexander the Great made a God?
>
>
> In European Paganism, Religion and Rulership always coincide.
>
> Across the Indo-European world, and elsewhere, the Genius of Rulers
> were almost always seen as special, divine, or holy in some manner.
> Most people had rites for endowing them with such divine honors
(the
> Northern and British concept of "Sacred Kingship" is just one
example
> of this) The semitic ideas of "Priest Kings", the Fact that Rome
had
> the Highest Political Ruler of the Land also being the Pontifex
> Maximus. Chieftans in the North traced their lineages back to Woden
> or Frey or Tyr or Rig, and in the Celtic countries Gollamh, or Bile
> or Lugh; In the Aeneid, Aeneas had Godly parentage as well.
Egyptian
> rulers were seen as having the same Ka as Osiris, or one of the
Gods-
> (Ka was the Egyptian equovalent of the Roman 'Genuis').
>
> Many Roman emporers traced family lines back to the Gods. This idea
> is everywhere. It goes back to the root-notion that human order
> should perfectly reflect divine order; the Gods had a king or
> chieftan, and so did the human tribe. The human chieftan modeled
> himself off the divine chieftan, and so became a visible symbol of
> the divine on earth.
>
>
> > 2 In Ancient Rome was deification of a living human really part
of
> > Religio Romano. Augustus Caesar who was really great and really
> Rome
> > in my opinion, never asked to be deified and had no say in the
> matter.
> > When some of the other infamous Emperors came along were they in
> fact
> > for real as far as the Religo was concerned or were they actually
> > false in terms of the religious theology?
>
>
> I'm sure that the average early Roman thought that the Genius of
> mythical heroes and the early kings were at least descended from
the
> Gods; they certainly believed these people at least possess a
unique
> destiny or power as a ruler- I don't guess any of us will ever know
> how the early Romans really thought about that.
>
> I do know that in the Empire, yes, some very bad rulers forced
people
> to worship THEM as Gods, and that is a bit freaky. I myself believe
> that the Genius of all bloodlines comes from the Gods, and I have
no
> trouble exalting the Genius of a person who is chosen to represent
> order and divine rulership over a group of people, so long as that
> person is virtuous and faithful, and does what is right.
>
>
>
> > 3) If they were not really gods as far as the Ancient Romans were
> > concerned then perhaps the persecutions were unfair.
>
>
> You mean the persecutions of Christians? The Law was the Law, and
the
> Gods were still real. The christians didn't stop at just protesting
> the possible corrupt deification of the Emporer or his excesses.
They
> wanted to overthrow everything- they mocked the holy Gods, who had
no
> part to play in any human corruption, and they mocked tradition and
> authority. They shunned longstanding norms, which were actually
godo
> things that have now been lost in this world- such as tolerance for
> many faiths, etc. They committed what amounted to Treason. They
> disobeyed other laws. No government can allow a sizable minority to
> do such things and not answer it, especially when times are already
> dangerously unstable.
>
>
> GAT

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Julia Domna & Animal Sacrifice (longish post)
From:	Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:21:00 -0800

Avete Crispe et omnes,

As far as I can see, the sacrifices Domna and Philostratus (and possibly the
real Apollonius himself) involved incense only; somewhere I picked up the
idea that effigies could stand in for actual animals if need be, but I need
to do more research on that. I think I may be conflating an hypothesis that
the Procession of the Argei, and the throwing of effigies into the Tiber,
may have been a replacement of actual human sacrifice. I won't even get
into Wicker Men, though the image of poor Edward Woodward still makes me
laugh. (One variation on the "symbolic" theme would be the scapegoat
tradition of ancient Israel. As I remember from the entry in the
"Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible," when the sins of the people are
placed on the head of the scapegoat, it is not slaughtered but chased into
the desert, where the demon Azazael would then catch and eat it along with
the sins. In actuality, then, the goat would either die on its own or find
the herd of other scapegoats living the high life at some unknown oasis.)

In "A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology," Vol. I, pp.
242-244, by Professor William Smith & Others, London, 1890, there's this
(the website does not list the attribution for the specific article): "His
[Philostratus's characterization of Apollonius] aim was to purify the
worship of Paganism from the corruptions which he said the fables of the
poets had introduced, and restore the rites of the temples in all their
power and meaning. In his works on divination by the stars, and on
offerings, he rejects sacrifices as impure in the sight of God. All objects
of sense, even fire, partook of a material and corruptible nature; prayer
itself should be the untainted offering of the heart, and was polluted by
passing through the lips. This objection to sacrifice was doubtless
connected with the Pythagorean doctrine of the transmigration of souls."

F.C. Conybeare's Introduction to his translation of the "Life" states: "We
read that wherever Apollonius travelled, he visited the temples, and
undertook to reform the cults which he there found in vogue. His reform
seems to have ben consistent in this, that he denounced as derogatory to the
gods the practice of sacrificing to them animal victims and tried to
persuade the priests to abandon it. In this respect he prepared the ground
for Christianity and was working along the same lines as many of the
Christian missionaries. In the third century Porphyry the philosopher and
the enemy of Christianity was as zealous in his condemnation of blood-
offerings, as Apollonius had been in the first. Unquestionably the
neo-Pythagorean propaganda did much to discredit ancient paganism, and
Apollonius and its other missionaries were all unwittingly working for that
ideal of bloodless sacrifice which, after the destruction of the Jewish
Temple, by an inexorable logic imposed itself on the Christian church."

And, from the "Life" itself, when Apollonius meets the King of Babylon
[again, my notes don't include the chapter/verse reference]:

And when Apollonius approached and saluted him, the king addressed
him in the Greek language and invited him to sacrifice with him; and it
chanced that he was on the point of sacrificing to the Sun as a victim a
horse of the true Nisaean breed, which he had adorned with trappings as if
for a triumphal procession.

But Apollonius replied: "Do you, O king, go on with your sacrifice,
in your own way, but permit me to sacrifice in mine." And he took up a
handful of frankincense and said: "O thou Sun, send me as far over the earth
as is my pleasure and thine, and may I make the acquaintance of good men,
but never hear anything of bad ones, nor they of me."

And with these words he threw the frankincense into the fire, and
watched to see how the smoke of it curled upwards, and how it grew turbid,
and in how many points it shot up; and in a manner he caught the meaning of
the fire, and watched how it appeared of good omen and pure.

Then he said: "Now, O king, go on with your sacrifice in accordance
with your own traditions, for my traditions are such as you see." And he
quitted the scene of sacrifice in order not to be present at the shedding of
blood.

---

So perhaps I was a bit hasty in saying they supported "symbolic animal
sacrifices." A more accurate representation would be that they supported
symbolic sacrifices (such as prayer and incense) in place of animal
sacrifices, a "spiritualization" divorced from physicality. And again, let
me say that I neither support nor deride this approach, I merely research
and report :o) .

Valete,

Cn. Iulius Strabo

>Ave Strabo,
Could you please clarify one thing for me. I don't understand how an animal
is symoblicly sacrificed. Could you please explain?
Vale,
T. Cornelius Crispus<

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:28:18 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "IVLIA VOPISCA" <iulia_uopisca@y...> wrote:


> IVLIA VOPISCA QVIRITIBVS SALVTEM:
>
> The essential point of Cassius Nerva's discussion here seems to be
to
> absolve Christians, Christianity, and the aggressive promotion of
the
> Nazarene religion for any responsibility in the ultimate collapse
of
> Roman civilization ... therefore, let's not even consider the
effects
> of this proselytizing movement upon society in the two centuries
> prior to Constantine's Edict of Milan. That is the specious part of
> the argumentation right there. It's like saying that the temple
> really isn't on fire until the flames are leaping through the roof
> and bucket brigades are in place.


Iulia,


Thank you for this AMAZING post. I will burn incense to your Genius
tonight.

Galus Agorius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:27:37 -0500

On Tue, Oct 29, 2002 at 02:31:45PM -0000, lithia_cassia wrote:
>
> [quote]
> > 1. The gods did not save Rome because they never existed.
> > 2. The gods did not save Rome because they were unable to do so.
> > {Impotency}
> > 3. The gods did not save Rome because they were unwilling to do so,
> > due to Christianity.
> [/quote]
>
> Riiiight. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" is
> such a simplistic question. If you are one who believes in Gods, or
> even the nature of Gods, then it should be obvious that as a major
> deity of the heavens, a God just might have more important things to
> take care of than some silly little nation that is on and off in the
> blink of a millenial eye.
>
> Do we notice the important goings on of houseflies? Do we care what
> dramas they may be enduring as they fly endlessly in a circle about
> our ceiling? No, we don't give it a second thought, and if their
> buzzing becomes too annoying, we squash them.

And this is such a simplistic answer. If the above relationship is what
you postulate as existing between gods and humans, then gods are
something to hate, despise, fight, and evade at all costs. They would
certainly be unworthy of love, respect, or honor.

I agree that it's an old argument. This does not, however, make it
invalid... and it takes _far_ more intelligent consideration to answer
it in a reasonable manner (e.g., St. Augustine) than tossing it off with
"humans are unimportant".


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mea mihi conscientia pluris est quam omnium sermo.
My conscience means more to me than all speech.
-- Cicero, "Epistulae ad Atticum"

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Truth that was lost
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:40:27 -0000

Here is an excerpt from the Edict of 313, and edict which was
abolished by the wicked and evil Justinian two centuries later:



"It seems to us a very good and reasonable system to refuse to none
of our subjects, whether a Christian, or belonging to some other
Cult, the right to follow the religion that suits him best. In this
way, the Supreme Divinity, whom each of us will forthwith venerate
freely, can accord to each of us its customary favor and benevolence."



When Justinian destroyed this edict, and outlawed any religion except
Christianity, he destroyed the freedom of conscience. He was only
following in the footsteps of his foul precursor, Theodosius.



G.A.T.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Truth that was lost
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:25:38 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Please do not label Emperors wicked and evil. There are many of us (myself included) who admire the Eastern Roman Empire.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: g_agorius_taurinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:40 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Truth that was lost




Here is an excerpt from the Edict of 313, and edict which was
abolished by the wicked and evil Justinian two centuries later:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma: Rome Evolves
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:32:49 -0800 (PST)

--- g_agorius_taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
wrote:
SNIP
> So why is it that we can all agree about this, but
> certain ones of us
> still think that we should practise the Religio as
> it was done
> thousands of years ago? Why does everything ELSE
> evolve, except the
> Religio? Sounds like we have some people who,
> against all logic, just
> want to kill animals (and would they favor
> sacrificing people, in
> times of extreme crisis, as the Old Romans did?)
> because it touches
> some dark freudian chord in them, or some deeper,
> darker urge.
>
Human Sacrifice?
That is just a strawman. No one has mentioned Human
Sacrifice.

"As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland
and worldly focus for the Religio Romana"
>From the Preamble to Nova Roma's present Constitution.

"The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall
be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."
>From the preamble of Nova Roma's original
Constitution.

Nova Roma was founded as the focus for the restoration
of the ancient Religio. I'm sorry if anyone was
misinformed about the nature of Nova Roma. You should
have done more research into the nation before
submitting your aplication for citizenship.

The ancient Religio has one reseembalance to the
Jewish religion, that an agreement exists between the
Gods and The Roman people. In the case of the Jewish
people thier part in the covenant is to follow the
Law. In the case of the Roman people it is to perform
the ancient ritiuals.

The Jewish people aren't free to make arbitray changes
in the Mosaic law. Doing so would break the covinent
that exists between thenm and thier God. Nor are the
Roman people free to make arbitray changes in thier
rites, because this is also breaking the agrement that
exist between the Romans and the Gods.

The Religio Romania can't evolve because if it did it
would break the agreement with the Gods and cease to
be the Religio Romania. The Religio isn't about touchy
feely new age feelgood mysticism. It isn't about
speculation over the nature of the Gods, or mans place
in the cosmos. It's about upholding our end of an
agreement with the Gods by performing the ancient
Rituals, and nothing else.

Those who practice the Religio are free to beleave
whatever they wish about the nature of the Gods. You
are free to look apon the Gods as Supernatural forces,
as beings with a distinct physical body, or as
abstracts for the forces of nature if you wish. You
can even be a Monotheist and beleave the Gods are
aspects of a single great God if you wish. This is not
the concern of the Religio, it's only concern is that
the Ancient Rites be performed correctly.

The Religio is a set of common ritiuals. Each citizen
is free to attach whatever meaning to these rites they
wish. They are free to take part in them or not if
they wish (With the exception of Magistrates who
sometimes have to preside a Rite, not on behalf of
themselves, but on behalf of the Roman people). This
is one of the great strengths of the Religio Romania.
Roma never suffered from rioting over the nature of
Iuipiter's relationship with his son, or civil wars
caused by two pontifs splitting hairs about Mars will.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Symbolic Animal Sacrifice
From:	Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:50:28 -0800

Ave Taurine:

Thank you for your wonderful description. That's very interesting and quite
helpful.

Vale,

Cn. Iulius Strabo

>I know you didn't ask me, and perhaps you are asking for a historical
perspective on this subject that Strabo may have some insight into,
but I happen to perform symbolic animal sacrifices for an Oracle to
Hecate Triformus that I administer, so I can answer your question.<

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Religio Evolves? Question for the Priesthood
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:06:48 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:

>> The Religio Romania can't evolve because if it did it
> would break the agreement with the Gods and cease to
> be the Religio Romania. The Religio isn't about touchy
> feely new age feelgood mysticism. It isn't about
> speculation over the nature of the Gods, or mans place
> in the cosmos. It's about upholding our end of an
> agreement with the Gods by performing the ancient
> Rituals, and nothing else.



I have ambitions of being a member of one of the priesthoods of Nova
Roma one day.

I have a question for any of the Honorable Priests or Priestesses of
our Gods that happen to be watching this debate.


Is this above statement by L. Sicinius Drusus representative of How
Nova Roma really thinks about the Religio? I need an answer here.


Drusus, I understand how you want to protect the Religio
from "feelgood mysticism" as you put it. I do too. But I feel that
you have a VERY limited definition of what the Religio is.

We are humans. We have ALWAYS speculated about the nature of the Gods
and the Cosmos, and we always will. Everything changes, including the
nature of our relationship with the Gods. We are not living in
ancient Rome. We are not Ancient Romans. We do not have THEIR
relationship with the Gods. We have to establish a new one, based on
those principles that still hold true, and which fit in with the
modern day's special demands. Our hearts are still here; our words;
our devotions; our honor; our needs; and our deepest natures. These
are the true constituents of a relationship with the Gods, and of the
Religio, in any era.

It's not about 'feel good' mysticism- and it is about WAY MORE than
just mechanically making offerings to the Gods and never stopping to
debate or question their ultimate nature and our relationship to them
and to the universe. Religio has to be organic and evolving like we
are, or it cannot be a part of us- it will become dry, dead, and
oppressive.

And as far as "upholding" our end of an agreement with the Gods- I
don't think that if a Flamen 1700 years ago made a deal with Iupiter
or Ceres to cut the throats of a cock every morning of the month of
july, that you or I are bound to keep doing that, just because we
read about his deal in a history book. That was then. This is now. He
isn't you and I, and his relationship with Iupiter or Ceres isn't the
same. We have to make our own relationships with the Gods.


G.A.T.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Truth that was lost
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:55:57 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Please do not label Emperors wicked and evil. There are many of us
(myself included) who admire the Eastern Roman Empire.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Respected One,

You can admire the Eastern Empire as much as you like; I am sure that
there were many admirable things about it. But criticisms against
these men (Theodosius and Justinian, for instance) in no way detracts
from that. They were wicked men, in my opinion. They ordered pagans
murdered for no reason other than religious difference. They took
freedoms away from everyone in the name of a religious-political
syndicate that they were firmly in the pocket of. Anyone doing this
today in the West would be called a fanatic, a Hitler, and a bad
person.

I in no way meant to admonish or tarnish the Eastern Empire or its
glory by expressing my personal opinion of these two men.


G.A.T.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Emperor Worship
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:51:43 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Taurine,



> The only other thing is about the Emperors like Caligula, Nero,
> Comodos or other Idi -Amin like emperors etc. Do you think they
were
> contradicting, insuting or blaspheming themselves and their own
God
> ancestors by their excesses, evil deeds, and not following the
Roman
> virtues?


Yes, I do. If they really thought that they, in their human state,
were Gods, then they were in the grip of very harmful delusions and
hubris and even blasphemy, if such a term can be applied by a pagan.

Yes, I feel that they were insulting the noble memory of their
Ancestors, human and divine, by destroying other lives amnd causing
suffering for their no reason other than their own greed or excess.



> These guys killed a lot of their own pagan practicing
> people.


Yes they did, and religion aside, killing outside of the boundaries
of Justice or self defense is wrong.



I am not refering to Christians on this point. How would the
> Gods of Rome view them and actually being from gods ordained or
> related to gods, could they be punished in the afterlife by their
own
> peers according to Religio Romano?


>I think you partially addressed
> this below when you were saying you would accept genius if they
lived
> good virtous lives but would you please elaborate a little on the
> negative side?

> Thanks - Quintus




The Gods would view them as mortals, like anyone else. The Gods would
see them as mortals with a special responsibility, and if the entered
into contractual oaths with the Gods to uphold certain standards in
exchange for Godly favor, then certainly the Gods would hold them to
that. The Ruler has a special Fate. The Gods would know that too. But
they are still Mortal- just a mortal with special duties and burdens.
No one can say if one person *really* has Godly parentage or lineage-
back then, as now, that was likely 8 parts propaganda and 2 parts
tradition. As I said, I believe that all human Gens go back to a
divine source. One is not "better" than another- but some have
different destinies than others.



Could corrupt rulers be "punished" in the Afterlife? I guess that
depends on who you ask, and whether or not you believe in such a
thing.

I think that there is a Universal Harmony in Nature and in the Cosmos-
I think that humans have a duty to ensure that their actions and
deeds fall into line with this Harmony.

This concept is a VERY high level philosophical concept, and it would
spawn books of posts to discuss it fully. Suffice it to say that
Universal Harmony is the principle which governs the balance of
things; it is known by its peaceful presence; it is the great
Moderation (for in the virtue of Moderation, harmony has it's
greatest being) that resolves all human imbalances and that makes
manifests itself in human communities as prosperity, peace, and
happiness in the hearts of the people.

Part of the great nature of Harmony is the joy of mutual benefit
among members of the same family or species- birds of a feather flock
together, so they say- and human social endeavors are based upon this
ancient and natural maxim.

When harmony is missing, it is painfully obvious. It's absence can be
felt as strongly as it's presence. But no words can truly pin down
what it truly is. You know it in your own life when you have it. You
also feel the loss of it, or the lack of it. You can see how well a
government is in line with this principle just by looking at its
deeds, its people, and its ultimate affect on the world.


This principle is above and beyond cultural norms and differences;
this principle is part of Nature, whose other name is Truth- and it
changes as she does in form, but never in essence. All that can be
said about it is that you know it when it is there. Flexibility,
Tolerance, Introspection, Reason, and Moderation all lead us to this
harmony. "Virtue" is nothing more than a person's ability to
sublimate the contents of their own souls and bring themselves into
alignment with Harmony.


It is the Heart that most deeply resonates and responds to the
balancing princples of Nature and Harmony- and I believe that
the "judgement" in the Underworld is nothing more than the heart of
each dead person becoming "known"- when the outer life has ended, it
is what is "inside" us that matters, the true, internal nature of
your heart and psyche, and the forces that you encountered through
your life, and the forces that you chose to embrace or manipulate
through your actions, that go partially into making up the fabric of
your "self".

The extent to which a person's life and actions were in accord with
Universal Harmony dictates the extent to which they will either
continue existing in peace and contentment, (in the Elysian fields,
for those who realized Virtue at a great level) or an uneventful,
average, existance (Asphodel, for the masses who never even thought
about deep things, and just got by day to day).


However, if the person was so disruptive to the great principle of
Universal Harmony, so disruptive to the fabric of cosmic right and
Nature which Harmony manifests, expecially if hey wantonly, unjustly,
and un-naturally destroyed life (read: Hitlers, Justinian,
Theodosius, 911 Terrorists, etc) then those people experience the
very natural consequences of the disruption and disharmony they
caused- the disturbed forces, sometimes embodied as the
Furies/Erinyes (representing the forces of guilt, disharmony, and
universal consequence) "punish" them. But just as it takes
a "special" person to really excel in Virtue (that is, to realize
harmony on a high leve) It likewise takes an especially bad villain
to really cause the consequences of true Torment.


No matter who you are, or where you are in this condition, a point
comes (especially for those who are tormented, although this point
may not arrive for eons) when the forces of the universe as they
relate to your soul are at balance again, and if your Fate dictates
it, the Divine powers that reign over the Underworld (Dis Pater and
Proserpine) may either force the soul to leave their kingdom and
return to a human experience, or the soul may be given the option to.
The soul then moves on to "live" again in the state of being we call
human, and falls back subject to the natural laws and forces of this
world.


All of this is an internal experience of course. What I am saying is
that the Underworld is a common "place" or state of awareness- but
each person's experience of it is different- a person's essential
nature and the extent to which their heart conformed to the principle
of harmony dictates their experience of the afterlife state- and it
is different for everyone, each according to who he or she was and
is "inside." This "judgement" is not a judgement on the part of the
Gods- it is a manifestation of the Goddess Justice, whose abode is in
the Underworld, where all truth comes out and all is perfectly
resolved according to the enlinked chain of natural force, harmony,
and consequence.



SO can your evil emporers "be punished" in the afterlife? I can't
say, because I am not Fate, I am not Lady Justice- but I can tell you
that I believe that these emporers, like everyone else, have their
hearts or essential beings weighed, reflected back to their true
awareness in the dark mirror of the underworld, and their new state
of existance is based on what they see inside.



Truth and Honor,


Galus Agorius



PS: don't let this post sound too grim. Life has an even deeper point
than just realizing harmony and living on through ages of consequence
and Fate with rest-stops in-between in the Underworld.

Some special heroes and certain insightful humans can find a way to
mystically transform their experience of Fate totally, and they do
not descend to the underworld when they die- the Ancient Mysteries
and the Theurgists knew the secret that man has sought since the dawn
of time- True Immortality; the secret to exalting the Psyche to a
state that transcends this system and enters into a new state of
being closer to the nature of the Gods. But that kind of stuff is
kept hush-hush.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:59:09 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> You forgot Free Will. G-d created the world and everything in it
and allows us the ability to <censor> it up.
>



Hello Sir:

Actually, I didn't forget that at all. If you'd go back and see my
original response posts on this subject, you'd see that I brought up
the idea of human volition and choice in good detail, as well as Fate.

With this last letter that you responded to, I was attempting to put
Nerva into the same false dillema that he tried to put the pagan gods
into by copying his example of trying to have only three possible
reasons for a God's failure to act.

But in response to your letter, I am not so sure that I am personally
willing to give humankind this universal importance to say that a
being created the world and everything in it, and then just sits back
and allows humans to screw it up. That makes it sound like the world
was made just for us, or that the creator of the world doesn't care
if we destroy things.

I believe like the old pagans did, that Nature has no creator. Nature
is uncreated. It simply is. Nature is an all-inclusive, blanket term
for "reality" on any level. It changes constantly, but is always
Nature. It is all forces and things, either asleep in potential, or
expressed and existing.

Nature always was, always will be. It is the very background
existence that all forces entangle within, and it is the basic
reality that all things emerge from and return into. Humans and Gods
are alike two different expressions of Nature- but the Gods have
gifted us with certain abilities that other beings lack; and a great
responsibility to maintaing Universal Harmony comes with
those "gifts", which can be used for good or ill.


Galus Agorius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:06:06 -0000

[quote]
I personally see nothing morally or ethically wrong with any woman
choosing to engage in acts of prostitution of her own free will
[/quote]

Hey now, let's not forget the male prostitutes :D They deserve equal
opportunities as well...

**

I apologize for getting snarky in my previous responses in this
debate... I had not intended to do so. My personal beliefs about
free will and morals don't neccessarily mesh well with that of the
Senate and general populace of Nova Roma, and I can respect that.
However, I think the creation of a new and very real nation on this
planet that is above the puritanical views of women and sexuality,
etc. is so very ripe with amazing possibilities. Think of this - a
new society with no history of discrimination against someone with
different genitalia than the person in charge, no discrimination
against different races, beliefs, financial levels, etc. We could
truly shine on this earth as a model nation designed with equality
and freedom in mind, and show the hypocrites of the 'free' nations
just how it's done.

Now I do not mean anarchy by this by any means. I think the only way
a large populace can survive is with a set system of government and
rules, but in my opinion, there are far too many 'mommy' rules
running things, and not enough civil rights.


Lithia Cassia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Truth that was lost
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:54:17 -0800

Avete G. Agorius.
----- Original Message -----
From: g_agorius_taurinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:55 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Truth that was lost


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Please do not label Emperors wicked and evil. There are many of us
(myself included) who admire the Eastern Roman Empire.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Respected One,

You can admire the Eastern Empire as much as you like;

Sulla: I do and will continue to do so.

I am sure that
there were many admirable things about it.

Sulla: Yes, there is. Like the preservation of classics for a start. But I will leave it at that because this can easily go off topic.

But criticisms against
these men (Theodosius and Justinian, for instance) in no way detracts
from that.

Sulla: Now that I am not certain.

They were wicked men, in my opinion.

Sulla: And that is certainly your opinion. I am glad that this time you included (in your opinion.)

They ordered pagans
murdered for no reason other than religious difference.

Sulla: I disagree with you. Cite your sources to justify your claim! If you do not have sources to justify your claim, then I hope you will claim that this is all your opinion.

They took
freedoms away from everyone in the name of a religious-political
syndicate that they were firmly in the pocket of.

Sulla: Just like the Persecutions of the Chrisitans took away their freedoms as well? I see.

Anyone doing this
today in the West would be called a fanatic, a Hitler, and a bad
person.

Sulla: So? Whats your point? Your view that today we are so enlightened is utter nonsense. More barbarity has occurred this past century than ever in Human History. This past century we had two world wars, holocausts, and through science developed technology to destory our own existence.

I in no way meant to admonish or tarnish the Eastern Empire or its
glory by expressing my personal opinion of these two men.

Sulla: I wish I could believe you, but based on your previous posts but at this point the verdict is still out.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


G.A.T.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"William Rogers" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:03:19 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@a...> wrote:
> You make excellent points about slavery and toga wearing (both of

****SNIP!*****



However, in Nevada, there exists the Mustang Ranch, which is a
> federally mandated brothel. The women there are pricey and they
suit a wide variety of fancies. They get regular health check ups
and are always protected. They are in the peak of physical health,
because they have HEALTH CARE benefits (something the average
streetwalker does not have), they never go hungry, dirty, or have to
suffer through beatings or rapings because they have the law on their
side in this case.
****And I live in Georgia...bummer :-)

That is how it would be in Nova Roma, were such an institution
created.
****Who wants to volunteer to oversee operations? Any volunteers!?

>
> I see no reason why it SHOULDN'T be legal. To me, that's like
saying hair salons should be illegal.
******YYYYYYYYYYYIIIIPPPPPEEEEEESSSSSSS! You mean they ARE legal?!?


EGADS! Civilization is coming to the end! Hide your hair bows!
AAAAYYYYYYYYHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

P.T.Rufus

(Sorry......I just had to lighten this up some)

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] EDICTUM TEMPLI CONCORDIAE nºII
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lucius=20Arminius=20Faustus?= <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:40:59 -0300 (ART)

EDICTUM TEMPLI CONCORDIAE nºII
Nomeação de um apparitor


Na vacância de um sacerdote, pelos poderes a mim conferidos como scriba pelo Estatuto do Templo da Concordia, nomeio o honoravel cidadao Titus Arminius Genialis Apparitor do Templo Provincial da Concordia, especialmente dedicado ao culto da deusa Salvação Pública. Ele provou-se digno do cargo e bastante interessado nos assuntos da Religio Romana. Esta nossa homenagem é um dos mais sinceros agradecimentos pelos seus trabalhos em prol do incremento da vida novoromana provincial como tradutor.

Salve, Titus Arminius Genialis, que os deuses lhe abençoem pelo seu trabalho!

O Templo pode ser acessado por http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/aedes/aedes.html




EDICTUM TEMPLI CONCORDIAE nºII
Nomination of an apparitor

On the vacancy of a priest, by the Imperium confered to me as scriba by the Statute of the Temple of Concordia, I nominate the honorable citizen Titus Arminius Genialis as Apparitor of the Provincial Temple of Concordia, specially dedicated to the worship of the goddess Salus Publica. He has proved himself worthy of the office and very interested on the Religio Romana subject. This is our public thanks by his efforts for the increase of novaroman life on our province as a translator.


Salve, Titus Arminius Genialis, may the Gods bless you for your works!

The Temple can be found in http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/aedes/aedes.html







Vale bene in pacem deorum,



L. Arminius Faustus

Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae, scriba tribuni plebis.

Member of Decuriae Interpretes - (portuguese chair)

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



Se de ócio estou, divirto-me escrevendo,

Entre os defeitos meus, este enumero...

Satira Quarta, Horácio



---------------------------------
Yahoo! GeoCities
Tudo para criar o seu site: ferramentas fáceis de usar, espaço de sobra e acessórios.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:44:48 -0000

Franciscus Apulus CAesar Omnibus S.P.D.

The Legend about our Father Romulus and Remus tells us that two
little brothers was taken by the waters of the sea Tiber by a WOLF
female. Thw Wolf helped their to grow and became adult using love.

But maybe you don't know that the Wolf of Romulus wasn't a real
animal!
In latin "wolf" means "Lupa" ---> in ancient informal latin and in
ancient italian language "Lupa" means "prostitute" ---> the wolf of
Romulus was a prostitute.
This is explained and demonstred by the historical experts !!!

Remember, the prostitution is the most ancient job of the world. Only
we have to understand what is the "world" of prostitution.
Sure, an illegal and hidden prostitution gives crimes, slavery of
women and immigrants, diseases, etc. but everything is hidden and
each puritan can say "my society is clear and honest and they are
illegal!" ;-)
A legal prostitution don't give crimes and diseas like AIDS and
others, but your society is not so clear and honest and your sons
will see women sell own body and sexuality.
What would you like? ;-)

Valete
FAC

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:59:47 -0000

[quote]
your sons
will see women sell own body and sexuality.
What would you like? ;-)
[/quote]

Oh would they have to see that? Really? Those poor things. ;) I
know coming to terms with sexuality is hard, but it's not that hard.
If we were given the knowledge that men and women do sell their
sexuality, I think in time we'd be fine with it, just as people were
fine with it. It's all just about reversing the silly laws people
used to live under.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Truth that was lost: Proof of Justin's crimes
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:37:18 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:



>> Respected One,
>> You can admire the Eastern Empire as much as you like;

> Sulla: I do and will continue to do so.


Well, I'm glad.


> They ordered pagans
> murdered for no reason other than religious difference.


> Sulla: I disagree with you. Cite your sources to justify your
>claim! If you do not have sources to justify your claim, then I
>hope you will claim that this is all your opinion.



It is well known that Theodosius ordered children who were playing
with pieces of a statue of Jupiter in the ruins of a temple to be
killed. It appears in any number of books on the fall of the pagan
religions of antiquity- an easy one for you to get would be Pierre
Chuvin's book "Revealing Antiquity, Vol 4: A Chronicle of the Last
Pagans."


But I won't stop there- It find it shocking that you could "disagree"
that people like Theodosius and Justinian ordered the murders of
pagans by making it illegal to be pagan- by passing outrageously
intolerant laws.

That these men did this (who in my OPINION are some of the most evil
men who ever lived) is without dispute. How can you ignore history?



Fine then; if it's proof you want, HISTORY certainly gives us TONS of
that!

Let's take it from the top, shall we? Justin I ascended the throne in
518- As of that year, even before he got in charge, he tightened the
laws against heretics, Manichaeans, Samaritans, pagans, and the like.
(see Stein's Historie Du Bas-Empire, pages 369-375 to see how many
people he poltically exculded and persecuted.)

But it gets way better.

In Justin's own Codex (I, 5, laws 1-12) we can read:


"With regard to heretics, and also to Hellens who try to introduce
polytheism, as well as Jews and Sarmatians, we have resolved not only
to restore the regulations of existing laws, and reinforce them with
this present law, but also to enforce other measures which will
provide those who share our shining faith with greater security, law,
and order."


And what were those "reinforcements"?

Well, to being with, Justin made it illegal to own christian slaves-
but pagans could still be kept as slaves.

Then he placed "forcible constraints" into place-

Justin writes:

"One finds persons possessed by the error of the unclean and
abominable Hellenes, and performing their practises, and this arouses
in God, in his love for mankind, a righteous anger."

He then goes on to say that earlier he had sought to correct them,
and thought with clemency, he punished those who "brought sacrifices
to idols in their foolish error and celebrated holidays associated
with every kind of impurity."

>From then on he states that any converted Hellene who relapse into
their former error would be sentenced to "supreme punishments (i.e.
Death). He then says, to ALL pagans:


"All those who have not yet been baptised must come forward, whether
they reside in the capital or in the provinces, and fo to the very
holy churches with their wives, their children, and their households,
to be instructed in the true faith of the Christians. And once thus
instructed and having sincerely renounced their former error, let
them be judged worthy of redemptive baptism. Should they disobey, let
them know that they will be excluded from the State and will no
longer have any rights of possession, neither goods nor property,
stripped of everything, they will be reduced to penury, without
prejudice to the appropriate punishments that will be imposed on
them." (Cod. Just. I, 10, Law 1,2)


This shocking display of early nazi rhetoric is quickly followed up
by the following orders:

For obstinate or heretic professors or peasants, if they are
landowners, to have their property taken away and be banished; for
members of pagan cults to get the death penalty; for young children
to all be baptised without delay; for older children, to recieve
instruction before baptism; for the heads of families who who recieve
baptism without their families to lose their jobs.

Professors of literature (including the classics that you are so sure
that the Eastern rulers "protected") are told the following:

"We forbid anyone stricken with the madness of the Impure Hellenes to
teach, so as to prevent them, under the guise of teaching those who
by misfortune happen to attend their classes, from in fact corrupting
the souls of those they pretend to educate. They will not recieve
state pensions, having no license either by sacred scripture or
earthly law, to claim, for themselves, any immunity whatsoever."
(Cod. Just. I, 11, Law 10)


Justin also abolished the Edict of 313, which allowed all people the
right to believe as they chose.


To quote Pierre Chuvin: "From Justinian on, all pagans were condemned
to civil death. The laws passed against them went as far as the
privacy of the family: the son who converted was removed from the
Authority of his father; as for the son who remained a pagan, he was
incapacitatedd, and the inheritance passed to relatives who were
christian."


Let's hear the (in my opinion wicked) Justin say it himself:

"(on the subject of heretics) It is more than enough for them that
they merely be allowed to live." (Cod. Just. I, 5, law 12)


The Laws of 529 immediately resulted in trials of high personages in
the capital, along with many death penalties and suicides.




>
> Sulla: Just like the Persecutions of the Chrisitans took away
their freedoms as well? I see.


I have already explained, at length, why the christians were being
persecuted. They were breaking the law. They were committing treason.
They were making spectacles of themselves to get the sick,
masochistic noteriety and false promises of glory of martyrdom.
Christians were mocking other people's Gods, the emperors, and
calling the heart of Roman Solidarity, the State religion, evil and
demonic. They deserved to have their freedoms taken away; all people
who want to force others to conform to THEIR religion and their ideas
need to be stopped.

And Look what finally did happen! Christians got in charge and
started an even larger campaign of wickedness, repression, theft of
freedom, and a larger scale, more systematic and finally MUCH MORE
violent, bloody, merciless, unjust and long-lasting persecution than
the pagans EVER did to them.

And now we live in the ruins of the bankrupt spiritual world that
they created.




> Anyone doing this
> today in the West would be called a fanatic, a Hitler, and a bad
> person.
>
> Sulla: So? Whats your point? Your view that today we are so
enlightened is utter nonsense.



And your view that our modern day is the source of all atrocities and
degeneracy is also utter nonsense. Atrocity has always existed- when
it was smaller scale, there were less people, so the impact was the
same. We DO live in a more enlightened time in some ways, but
religiously and spiritually, we certainly do NOT live in enlightened
times.


Galus Agorius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	"IVLIA VOPISCA" <iulia_uopisca@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:27:32 -0000

IVLIA VOPISCA SVO TAVRINO SALVTEM:

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@y...>
wrote:
> Iulia,
> Thank you for this AMAZING post. I will burn incense to your Genius
> tonight.
>
> Galus Agorius

I thank you for the kind comments, but do make that to my IVNO
then. :)

I am really not down on Christians or hostile to them at all, as the
group includes many among my family and friends of course. I admit
that I am more sympathetic to those who treat others with loving-
kindness and justice and follow a "Platinum Rule" inclusive of "NOT
proselytizing others when they themselves would NOT appreciate having
others badger them from intense conviction over their own choice of
favorite deity and religious affiliation. The good Rabbi
Hillel's "negative" working of that perennial maxim is highly
significant I feel and conveyes a subtlety of difference overlooked
in the more common formulation.

In the sad happenings of history, it is true that there are many and
complex causes in the rise and fall of nations as well as
individuals, sometimes attributed to a perceived fickleness in good
Fortuna. What I hold, about my own life as well as the lives of
nations and empires, is that there is too much hunting for blame,
whether in microbes, genes, parenting, governance, or the maintenance
of our contracts with the Gods. If you looked upon the Cosmos or upon
a family line with the eye that perceives from timeless perspective
or broad teleological sweep, it would all look different indeed, yes?

Does the quick loss of the Eastern Empire's wealthy provinces of
Egypt and Syria to Arab invaders imply that Islam's followers have
greater piety or that Allah is a far superior God, more "together"
than the Trinity? I wouldn't presume so. In its fall to Christian
control, Roman culture and, in a way, the feeling for the Gods, was
ultimately spread to distant realms unknown to the most noteworthy of
the Romans. Here am I, dwelling on the banks of the Colorado, so far
from both Tiber and Orontes, offering libations and honors to the
Gods of Rome!

And has the presence of our beloved Venus Genetrix ever been that
distant? She's honored even in the songs of Bavarian students
composed at the zenith of the Church's temporal and spiritual power.
Some of those popes even came to protect, treasure, and preserve
images of the Gods and every fragment associated with the glorious
legacy of Classical civilization... oh, in hiding yes, but the wheel
of time keeps turning and our human story has yet a few Acts to run
before the final curtain. I don't believe that the Gods are finished
and done with us yet, nor are we with Them!

VALETE OMNES, IN PACE DEORVM AMICITIAQVE

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Enough is enough:Truth that was lost: Proof of Justin's crimes
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:32:54 +0100 (CET)

--- g_agorius_taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<snip>
> "All those who have not yet been baptised must come
> forward, whether
> they reside in the capital or in the provinces, and
> fo to the very
> holy churches with their wives, their children, and
> their households,
> to be instructed in the true faith of the
> Christians. And once thus
> instructed and having sincerely renounced their
> former error, let
> them be judged worthy of redemptive baptism. Should
> they disobey, let
> them know that they will be excluded from the State
> and will no
> longer have any rights of possession, neither goods
> nor property,
> stripped of everything, they will be reduced to
> penury, without
> prejudice to the appropriate punishments that will
> be imposed on
> them." (Cod. Just. I, 10, Law 1,2)
>
>
> This shocking display of early nazi rhetoric is
> quickly followed up
> by the following orders:


=====
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------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
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icq: 155762490

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:40:01 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Diana Moravia-Pagan Fed Belgiu <paganfedbelgie@yahoo.com>
>
>I am quite in tune with my female sexulaity and have
>nothing against erotic dancers, bellydancers (I am
>one), prostitutes, etc. etc. In fact, I believe that
>these women are not afraid of their female sexuality
>and this wonderful gift of femaleness that they have
>received from Venus.
>
Prostitution is the inverse of prudery: there will always be women who, because they seem to find it easier to live without the sensuality of others, will suppress sensual acceptance so it becomes a commodity they can use to explot men for material gain, whether honestly or dishonestly as she takes him for all she can get and pretends outrage 'What do you take me for?'

>Whether a prostitute may be 'better' than a 'regular
>woman' depends on what you're speaking about. If you
>are speaking strictly about sex, then you are probably
>correct.
This would have been true of a Greek Hetaira because it is only because they included sex among their talents (about 3 University degrees worth) that modern sensibility dismisses them as 'prostitutes'. Rome did not need them since they were as far in time as we are from Colombus and respectability changed. Their place would have been taken by rich society hostesses, as it is today.
Prostitutes proper, Pornai, were generally slaves and the lest said about their condition the better. The most famous prostitute in ancient history is Phaido, enslaved aged six after his parents were killed in the massacre of Mehlis and subsequently bought out in his teens by one of Sokrates' associates to become the (not surprisingly very nihilistic) philosopher of Elis.

After 2 people have sex 150 times, some of
>the mystery certainly goes out of the actual sex act,
>but it is replaced by warmth, tenderness, trust, real
>love and companionship.
That should be there anyway! Even when it's getting to know each other after a party!
>
>with love? Maybe you didn't intend it, but your email
>came across to me as 'I want to be the prostitute of
>NR'. And if you are a young girl (I haven't looked at
>your NR profile yet) then you really need to be
>careful what path you set your feet on.
>
There are plenty of e-places for both sexes who need to feel abused or owned to fulfill themselves sexually. I don't understand it in full, save that it must be a way to overcome deep inhibitions, but it is perhaps not so different from rather old-fashioned possessive views about marriage.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

"You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own actions. You are not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions." Prof. Noam Chomsky



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:46:42 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : lithia_cassia <mscommunication@attbi.com>

>of civilizations and humans. I was merely wondering if Nova Romans
>would be carrying on the Puritanical taint from the US into their new
>nation, if one ever were to exist as a macronation (which is what I
>meant by 'physical').

Then they would be historically accurate: Rome, like the USA was an essentially Puritanical warrior society which became more _im_moral than _a_moral. That is, they never lost the sense of nasty and dirty, though they went ahead anyway. I've come to like Athens progressively less as I discover more about it (I prefer the later Hellenistic period) and one thing I dislike is that 'love' is very skin-deep: prettiness, superficial pleasure just like Hollywood, rarely deep affection between 'souls' even where prized in men; but at least they were honest that pleasure was for sale and very little hypocrisy ot shame about it.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:58:33 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Sicinius Drusus“ <lsicinius@yahoo.com>

>There is no need to even consider slavery as an
>option. Even if we decided to allow it, who would be
>enslaved?
>
there is something worth considering here. Rome was no socialist state but neither was it a mass-employment one in the modern sense. Much necessary work was done by slaves and most who worked at all did so for themselves. That is another point where the old cannot truly be revived: Senators would have to be forbidden to work or even to have direct business interests. Take that as literally as Muslims take their injunction against charging interest (which used to apply to Christianity too) and you cannot keep money in a bank investing it in business either.
There is a potential that the necessary work nobody would do unless they must could be done by indentured bondage, perhaps for the first year or two of probationary pre-citizenship or by conscription for a short time over many years, as the Swiss Militia. There is also the potential that if this could be achieved, a great deal of the work done today only because it requires money to live in the system, could be done away with and leave time for more creative activities.
Earlier there were questions about 'American Puritanism' and Rome. It is not in matters sensual that the ancient world poses its biggest challenge: it is in the change from the post-industrial 'work' (really 'employment') ethic to an anti-work ethic. The ancient ideal was not lots of money or status: it was Leisure; the freedom from obligation and in particular obligation to dance to someone else's tune for a living. Perhaps a modern equivalent exists in Linux Freeware! And like ancient Leisure, that is only possible supported fro msome other source.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Enough is enough! (was:Truth that was lost: Proof of Justin's crimes)
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:48:06 +0100 (CET)

--- g_agorius_taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<snip>
> This shocking display of early nazi rhetoric is
> quickly followed up
> by the following orders:

OK, now I have followed this discussion with great
interest, but this is definitely too much! Imho,
everyone is free to call any (historic) person evil
and to disagree with that persons actions etc.

But drawing a parallel between a christian emperor and
the Nazis is too much! Really, I get disappointed
here, because some of you here who claim to be roman
pagans show the same intolerance towards christians
and their beliefs that you actually accuse them to
have had against you!

I hope, you reconsider your postings! Because this
Nazi *sledgehammer* is really not necessary and
completely contraproductive. Otherwise, what about
calling the complete destruction of Carthago by the
Romans *a shocking display of early nazi warfare*?!?
Think about that, please!

Valete bene,

A. Hirtius Helveticus (a practising Roman Catholic)

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
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icq: 155762490

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Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Nova-Roma]_Re:_Constantinus_et_Teodosius_-_Trying_II?=
From:	"=?utf-8?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:57:13 +0200

Specati Cives Omnes

I humbly would like to point out that nobody that wrote his opinion
kept to the point. I don't want to annoy people with my opinion about
Catholicism and Religio Romana. And what I read were plain opinions.
One stated I am pagan, one stated Jesus was not so bad and so on and so
on.

I want to to speak about facts.

Rome din't exist separated from Religion. The state did not exist on
its own: never religion and the State have ever been separated.
Until one day in 382 when the Emperor subtracted the authority of the
State to traditional Religion. Rome ended that day. This Gratianus did
because he was a christian. It is useless to spaeak about Saint
Ambrosius and his role. The reason Rome ended was christian faith.
Nothing more, nothing less.
September the 6th of 394: pagans lost in battle against Theodosius,
Rome ended foe ever. We positively know of thousands of people who
looked truthfully to Rome as their fatherland. But they were
christian. They were not Cives Romani: nobody has ever been a roman
citizen ever, since then.

Everything else is interesting but has little to do with facts.

Any person's idea is acceptable. Facts are something you can't discuss
too much. And facts are Christianism ended Rome as a state, that is to
say ended Rome.


Reverenter

Gallus Solaris Alexander
Bononia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Truth that was lost: Proof of Justin's crimes
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:47:14 -0800

Avete Omnes,
----- Original Message -----
From: g_agorius_taurinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:37 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Truth that was lost: Proof of Justin's crimes


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:



>> Respected One,
>> You can admire the Eastern Empire as much as you like;

> Sulla: I do and will continue to do so.


Well, I'm glad.

Sulla: Good.

> They ordered pagans
> murdered for no reason other than religious difference.


> Sulla: I disagree with you. Cite your sources to justify your
>claim! If you do not have sources to justify your claim, then I
>hope you will claim that this is all your opinion.



It is well known that Theodosius ordered children who were playing
with pieces of a statue of Jupiter in the ruins of a temple to be
killed. It appears in any number of books on the fall of the pagan
religions of antiquity- an easy one for you to get would be Pierre
Chuvin's book "Revealing Antiquity, Vol 4: A Chronicle of the Last
Pagans."


Sulla: "It is well known" does not sound like a documented source.

But I won't stop there- It find it shocking that you could "disagree"
that people like Theodosius and Justinian ordered the murders of
pagans by making it illegal to be pagan- by passing outrageously
intolerant laws.

Sulla: I am sure you wont stop there. LOL! And yes I disagree with you that these men are wicked becuase you are passing judgements on people who you dont know. It is not our place as men and women to judge the actions of another. But, obviously you seem to live by a different standard. :) Thats fine though.

That these men did this (who in my OPINION are some of the most evil
men who ever lived) is without dispute. How can you ignore history?

Sulla: I do not ignore history. I have no problem admitting they are flawed just as the emperors who persecuted the Christians are just as flawed. I hope you would be willing to do the same. If not, then there is a word that describes people like that. :)

Fine then; if it's proof you want, HISTORY certainly gives us TONS of
that!

Sulla: Of course I want history. We all should want historical justification.

Let's take it from the top, shall we? Justin I ascended the throne in
518- As of that year, even before he got in charge, he tightened the
laws against heretics, Manichaeans, Samaritans, pagans, and the like.
(see Stein's Historie Du Bas-Empire, pages 369-375 to see how many
people he poltically exculded and persecuted.)

Sulla: Justin or Justinian? Justinian came to the throne 527 ce. His adopted father Justin came to the throne at 518. So, according to your resources he seems to have been against most religions that do not fall in line with his belief. Hardly someone who is against JUST PAGANS. Was he the only emperor to take this action. No. So what makes him more evil than those emperors who persecuted the Christians?

But it gets way better.

In Justin's own Codex (I, 5, laws 1-12) we can read:


"With regard to heretics, and also to Hellens who try to introduce
polytheism, as well as Jews and Sarmatians, we have resolved not only
to restore the regulations of existing laws, and reinforce them with
this present law, but also to enforce other measures which will
provide those who share our shining faith with greater security, law,
and order."

Sulla: Actually I think thats Justinian's codex. And my question previous question still stands. What makes this emperor more wicked than those before him who persecuted other people's and other faiths? If you call him wicked then you must call all other emperors wicked when they persecuted others.....What about the Emperor Tiberius who executed all those Senators when given false reports by Sejanus? Or Nero persecuting the Xtians or even Traijan doing the same? or Decius's persecution, Valerian's or Diocletians?

And what were those "reinforcements"?

Well, to being with, Justin made it illegal to own christian slaves-
but pagans could still be kept as slaves.
Then he placed "forcible constraints" into place-

Justin writes:

Sulla: You mean Justinian again right?

"One finds persons possessed by the error of the unclean and
abominable Hellenes, and performing their practises, and this arouses
in God, in his love for mankind, a righteous anger."

He then goes on to say that earlier he had sought to correct them,
and thought with clemency, he punished those who "brought sacrifices
to idols in their foolish error and celebrated holidays associated
with every kind of impurity."

From then on he states that any converted Hellene who relapse into
their former error would be sentenced to "supreme punishments (i.e.
Death). He then says, to ALL pagans:


"All those who have not yet been baptised must come forward, whether
they reside in the capital or in the provinces, and fo to the very
holy churches with their wives, their children, and their households,
to be instructed in the true faith of the Christians. And once thus
instructed and having sincerely renounced their former error, let
them be judged worthy of redemptive baptism. Should they disobey, let
them know that they will be excluded from the State and will no
longer have any rights of possession, neither goods nor property,
stripped of everything, they will be reduced to penury, without
prejudice to the appropriate punishments that will be imposed on
them." (Cod. Just. I, 10, Law 1,2)


This shocking display of early nazi rhetoric is quickly followed up
by the following orders:

Sulla: I do not think the Nazi's existed in the 6th century. <g>
<Snip>

>
> Sulla: Just like the Persecutions of the Chrisitans took away
their freedoms as well? I see.


I have already explained, at length, why the christians were being
persecuted. They were breaking the law. They were committing treason.

Sulla: Wait a minute. So, its ok for the Christians to break the law and be persecuted but now when the shoe is on the other foot you have a problem. Justinian promulgated his edict to outlaw Paganism. He had the thority to do so. And, he enforced his edict. Those Pagans who continued to believe in their faith did so in contravention of those laws and deserved punishment under the law, just like the Xitans. They chose their course of action.
They were making spectacles of themselves to get the sick,
masochistic noteriety and false promises of glory of martyrdom.
Sulla: Please, you sound like Marcus Cornelius Fronto, who exagarated the Xtians use of piety as a means to discredit them.
Christians were mocking other people's Gods, the emperors, and
calling the heart of Roman Solidarity, the State religion, evil and
demonic. They deserved to have their freedoms taken away;

Sulla: You sound no better than that "nazi" Justinian who took away the freedom of worship that was granted in the very edict of Tolerance issued by Constantine.

all people
who want to force others to conform to THEIR religion and their ideas
need to be stopped.


And Look what finally did happen! Christians got in charge and
started an even larger campaign of wickedness, repression, theft of
freedom, and a larger scale, more systematic and finally MUCH MORE
violent, bloody, merciless, unjust and long-lasting persecution than
the pagans EVER did to them.

Sulla: How do you know that the persecutions of Pagans were more systematic and much more violent, bloody and meriless?

And now we live in the ruins of the bankrupt spiritual world that
they created.

Sulla: I wish you would put the words (in your opinion) when you express it.


> Anyone doing this
> today in the West would be called a fanatic, a Hitler, and a bad
> person.
>
> Sulla: So? Whats your point? Your view that today we are so
enlightened is utter nonsense.



And your view that our modern day is the source of all atrocities and
degeneracy is also utter nonsense. Atrocity has always existed- when
it was smaller scale, there were less people, so the impact was the
same. We DO live in a more enlightened time in some ways, but
religiously and spiritually, we certainly do NOT live in enlightened
times.

Sulla: My point is simple (and I am Jewish, not Xtian). Every faith has problems because man is involved. Doesn't matter if your a Roman Pagan, a Xtian or jew. Pagans persecuted pagans. Pagans persecuted Xtians. Xtians persecuted Xtians and Pagans and Jews. Jews persecuted Xtians. NO ONE FAITH IS PERFECT. For you to be presumptious and start throwing your hatred around (and that is my opinion) pisses alot of us off who would be more inclined to listen to well reasoned debate. Instead you come off like a hypocrite justifying the persecutions of Xtians because they are treasonus when the same thing can be applied to Pagans. Now I hope you take the words I say as constructive criticism. I have nothing to gain other than my self respect for standing up for what I believe.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:53:30 +0100

Roman BriefpapierSalve Lithia,

>*amused*
:-)) I'm glad that I made you laugh :-)

This is a interesting topic--thanks for that!!

>But I do have another question for you - if you are in no way against
>prostitution, why would you be against it as a business?

So do I believe in prostitution as a business? Yes, if it stops some crazy
guy from being a rapist and No, because this does not solve the underlaying
problem of why men have to pay for sex just so they don't turn INTO rapists.

>It is just sex.

Sex is just sex, but lust is what the men who go to prostitutes really want.

Lust and Love are uncontrollable forces. Even if your brain tells you 'I
shouldn't do this, I am married', mutual lust between 2 people is nearly
impossible to deny. Even those who are promiscuous, picking up someone new
in a bar each week, feel the power of mutual lust and passion, even if it is
for only one night. But for a man going to a prostitute, who lays back and
fakes her orgasms (or doesn't even bother to fake it) this is a betrayal of
the gift of the sexual act that human beings can share with one another.
Then yes, it is just sex and very sad way of honoring the Goddess of Sex and
Love, Venus! (shameless Religio plug :-)

Lust and love together can make 2 people the happiest people in the world.
As I said in my previous email, eventually the lust will cool down, to be
replaced by something less hot, but more tender. (Unless you have a closet
full of harem girl clothes and have a diverse book collection ;-).

A few weeks ago, I quickly mentioned Venus Cythera and that sacred
prostitution took place in her temple in Sicily. Lucia Sallustia Albania
asked for mor info and I haven't forgotten! I am writing a proper essay on
Venus Cythera and will post it sometime next week on the Religio list.

>To the point, if we actually had a city of
>Nova Roma where people could move to, would there potentially be a
>brothel and would it be accepted by people?

If we were a city, there would probably all of the same good things/bad
things and in between things that you find in any city, including
prostitutes, which could be imported from Africa as they do in Belgium and
Holland (where prostitution is LEGAL). If Nova Roma ever becomes a city, I
hope that next to the brothel is a bagel shop and a Jupiler distributor.

>I asked this because I wanted to see just how far Nova Roma's
>citizens' love 'for everything Roman' actually went, or if peoples'
<ingrained and socialized hibitiions would come out.

There were some interesting arguments for and against. But a real roman
society besides slaves, would also include slums, them collapsing on people
and I think those slum dwellers emptying their toilets in the streets. I'll
take the new Rome, thanks!


Vale!
Diana Moravia Aventina





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] yes, I meant Justinian
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:52:04 -0000

Sorry- yes; I meant Justinian. I cut and pasted a lot of that, so
when a mistake gets in, it sticks. Now let me go respond to your new
post.


GAT

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: 2. Christianity and the Fall of the Roman Empire
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:12:50 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Cornelius Sulla“ <alexious@earthlink.net>
>
>You forgot Free Will. G-d created the world and everything in it and allows us the ability to <censor> it up.
>
Unfortunately the world is even better at doing that for itself than we are: one good volcano makes human efforts look pretty paltry and no amount of nuclear weapons can match a good meteorite strike. That and the violence of evolutionary history makes it easy to credit the belief that the Almighty exists as Energy untouched by matter and this material world is the creation of a mad, bad or failed demi-urge.
However, I am at a loss to understand belief in a divinity that would involve itself: such a being would be merely ourselves writ large, not divinity at all, and absolves us from responsibility ourselves. The ancient gods appear to have been considered more as forces it was necessary to do a deal with occasionally, not as persons (perhaps among some less-educated Greeks). The ancient religion has a continuous history in its Hindu manifestation but barely a single Devah honoured today gets a mention in the Vedas, nor are the Vedic divinities significant today. Yet it is still the same religion. It is even possible to identify the names of V/Warunah-Ouranos, Dyaush-[D]Zeus-Thunor though most divine names differ between cultures because they are really titles: (Poseidon=PoteDaan [Doric]=Pote[stas] (Power/Lord) of the 'Don' whatever the 'Don' stood for apart from the name of most Ukrainian rivers). You can even find in Plato's 'Republic' the essence of the Caste system.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius - Trying II
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:18:02 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Please bear with me for a few moments:
----- Original Message -----
From: sa-mann@libero.it
To: Nova-Roma
Cc: Nova-Roma
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Constantinus et Teodosius - Trying II


Specati Cives Omnes

I humbly would like to point out that nobody that wrote his opinion
kept to the point. I don't want to annoy people with my opinion about
Catholicism and Religio Romana. A

Sulla: Excellent, no citizen should want to upset any other citizen. Speaking our own opinions are perfectly acceptable. :)

nd what I read were plain opinions.
One stated I am pagan, one stated Jesus was not so bad and so on and so
on.

I want to to speak about facts.

Rome din't exist separated from Religion.

Sulla: From Religion I agree.

The state did not exist on
its own: never religion and the State have ever been separated.

Sulla:n Prior to the Empire the heads of state were not necessarily the heads of the Religio. PM's were elected (execpt during the Dictatorship of Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix). It wasnt til Augustus took the title at the Death of Lepidus that they were truly combined.

Until one day in 382 when the Emperor subtracted the authority of the
State to traditional Religion. Rome ended that day.

Sulla: I disagree, Rome still existed. It was a changed Rome, but still nevertheless Rome. One could state Rome ended when the capital moved to Constantople, or when Alaric sacked the city, or as most historians state when the trappings of power were sent back to Constantople when Romulus Augustulus was deposed in 476.

This Gratianus did
because he was a christian.

Sulla: Yes, and I for one am impressed that a Xtian Emperor at least thought enough not to claim the PM authority. When previous Xtian Emperors continued to hold the title Pontifex Maximus.

It is useless to spaeak about Saint
Ambrosius and his role. The reason Rome ended was christian faith.
Sulla: I disagree, I think the plagues, the civil wars, the economic facts played a much more important role in the decline of the Roman Empire.

Nothing more, nothing less.
September the 6th of 394: pagans lost in battle against Theodosius,
Rome ended foe ever.

Sulla: The Pagans were not the only one's fighting against Theodosius. Even the pagan aristocracy distanced themselves from this revolt: http://web.genie.it/utenti/i/inanna/livello2-i/arbogaste-i.html

We positively know of thousands of people who
looked truthfully to Rome as their fatherland. But they were
christian. They were not Cives Romani:

Sulla: According to the edict of Caracalla (212 ce) they were citizens of Rome, as long as they were free men.

nobody has ever been a roman
citizen ever, since then.

Sulla: I respectfully disagree. There were Roman citizens and even the Eastern Roman Empire continued to call themselves Romanoi.

Everything else is interesting but has little to do with facts.

Any person's idea is acceptable. Facts are something you can't discuss
too much. And facts are Christianism ended Rome as a state, that is to
say ended Rome.

Sulla: Again I respectfully disagree with your opinion. It does not add up with various well known and documented facts.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Reverenter

Gallus Solaris Alexander
Bononia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Truth that was lost: Proof of Justin's crimes
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:11:50 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:

>
> Sulla: I am sure you wont stop there. LOL! And yes I disagree
with you that these men are wicked becuase you are passing judgements
on people who you dont know.


You didn't know the men who flew planes into the world trade centers;
you don't know the snipers that were just busted in washington; you
didn't know hitler, but you can with some certainty look at their
actions and read wickedness there. The wicked do wicked things. It's
the only way to really be sure: actions speak louder than words.


>It is not our place as men and women to judge the actions of
>another. But, obviously you seem to live by a different
>standard. :) Thats fine though.


Actually, if you really believe that, then we should get rid of
courts, police, and judges. Because what right do we have to judge
murderers and rapists?

Actually, I have the right as a free person and a moral person to
judge others. I can't make others conform to my religion, but I can
judge their actions all day. When I see wickedness, I will call it.




> Sulla: I do not ignore history. I have no problem admitting
>they are flawed just as the emperors who persecuted the Christians
>are just as flawed. I hope you would be willing to do the same. If
>not, then there is a word that describes people like that. :)


Then use that word- go ahead! And you can consider yourself the loser
of this debate for being the first to stoop to ad hominem attacks, if
you do. Forgive me- I won't cut my thickly veiled insults with a
little smiley face for you; I don't do that.

>
> Sulla: Justin or Justinian? Justinian came to the throne 527
>ce. His adopted father Justin came to the throne at 518.



Yes, I meant Justinian. It was a clerical error on my part, sorry.
I notice that you kept pointing it out, using this (relatively minor)
error for all that it was worth- a tactic that debaters often use
when they don't have anything stronger. But yes, it was my error. I
meant Justinian.



> So, according to your resources he seems to have been against most
>religions that do not fall in line with his belief. Hardly someone
>who is against JUST PAGANS. Was he the only emperor to take this
>action. No. So what makes him more evil than those emperors who
>persecuted the Christians?



The sheer scale of the persecution, and the fact that this
persecution struck at the heart and soul of Rome- the true Religio.

>
> Sulla: Actually I think thats Justinian's codex. And my
>question previous question still stands. What makes this emperor
>more wicked than those before him who persecuted other people's and
>other faiths?


And my answer still stands. The True religion was persecuted and
destroyed, not what amounted to a fanatic fringe group that was
breaking the law to begin with. And the scale of this carnage was
MUCH greater.


> If you call him wicked then you must call all other emperors wicked
>when they persecuted others....


Any emporer who unjustly persecuted others was committing wicked acts.



>What about the Emperor Tiberius who executed all those Senators when
>given false reports by Sejanus? Or Nero persecuting the Xtians or
>even Traijan doing the same? or Decius's persecution, lerian's or
Diocletians?


What about them? I don't think that these things were right if they
were unjustly done.



> Sulla: I do not think the Nazi's existed in the 6th century. <g>
> <Snip>


Think again. I was using a modern allusion to a legendary evil that
only lived a few decades ago. They are very comparable examples to
what these emporers did to people.



> Sulla: Wait a minute. So, its ok for the Christians to break
>the law and be persecuted but now when the shoe is on the other foot
>you have a problem.


When the laws are unjust, yes. The state Religio had to be protected.
IT was destroyed. To make it illegal to try to return in piety and
truth TO the Gods is not a law that any true pagan would respect, and
if they died breaking that law, their deaths were unjust.




>Justinian promulgated his edict to outlaw Paganism. He had the
>thority to do so.


No one has the moral authority to outlaw the Truth.



> Sulla: You sound no better than that "nazi" Justinian who took
>away the freedom of worship that was granted in the very edict of
>Tolerance issued by Constantine.



Yeah, I know how angry it must make you to hear me criticizing people
who force others to give up their choices, which is what my criticism
here is all about. I'm such a nazi. Also, that sounds like a VERY
thin ad hominem attack; I wonder why the censors of this list aren't
responding. I have had my letters rejected for saying much less. I AM
MUCH BETTER than any NAZI. I don not think that people should be
oppressed or have their rights taken away for any reason, as long as
they are not hurting other people or interfering with the rights of
others.

>
> Sulla: How do you know that the persecutions of Pagans were more
systematic and much more violent, bloody and meriless?


>From history, again. From the fact that these persecutions went on
for HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of years, not just the short period of time
that the christian persecutions did, and because of the rivers of
blood that finally came of it that drenched the world.




> And now we live in the ruins of the bankrupt spiritual world that
> they created.
>
> Sulla: I wish you would put the words (in your opinion) when you
express it.


Yeah, and when I have an opinion, I will point it out.


> Sulla: My point is simple (and I am Jewish, not Xtian). Every
>faith has problems because man is involved.


I disagree. There is nothing inherently wrong with humans. Please
save those guilt contrivances for someone else.



> Doesn't matter if your a Roman Pagan, a Xtian or jew. Pagans
>persecuted pagans. Pagans persecuted Xtians. Xtians persecuted
>Xtians and Pagans and Jews. Jews persecuted Xtians. NO ONE FAITH
>IS PERFECT.


I never said that one faith was. I am simply pointing out what did
happen, and it seems that the truth hurts.


>For you to be presumptious and start throwing your hatred around
>(and that is my opinion) pisses alot of us off who would be more
>inclined to listen to well reasoned debate.


You are the one getting nasty here, pal, not me.



> Instead you come off like a hypocrite


Wow. It's amazing how people like you can call me a nazi, a
hypocrite, and everything else, and this just seems to be okay.


> justifying the persecutions of Xtians because they are treasonus
>when the same thing can be applied to Pagans. Now I hope you take
>the words I say as constructive criticism. I have nothing to gain
>other than my self respect for standing up for what I believe.



And I hope that you can try to realize that the REST of us have self
respect to stand up for to. But you can't seem to see that. I do not
wish to continue this debate with you here. Please respect my wishes.



GAT

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Farewell
From:	"Diotima Mortifera Plutona" <diotima@veilofnight.org>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:22:55 -0500

Ladies & Gents of Nova Roma,

I'm sorry to see, from tumultuous discussions on this list, that Nova Roma is indeed not the place I had thought it. I hereby resign my membership to this list and to the entire organisation, regretfully. I simply have entirely too much tension in my "real life" to log on to this many e-mails with more stress and tension in their messages. I don't expect things to be fluffy or hunky dory, but I just didn't stop to think it would be primarily a nation of debate.

All the best to you as you continue to strive to reconstruct Rome. It's a noble goal. I just had a different idea of what things would be like, compared to what they really are. Be well, all!

Signing off,
the once Diotima Mortifera Plutona


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] VENATIONES!!! - Join the game!
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:35:43 -0000

AVETE OMNES

We already have a lot of participants for next venationes during the
Ludi Plebei! However we want more! This edition will be more exciting
that last one!

The combats will take place in the Circus Flaminius. Do you know what
does it means? That each gymnasium allocates 25,000 sestertii for its
winners!!!!!

In addition we have a great event: the VENATIO MAGNA!!! Three
fighters against 10 wild crocodiles!!!!! each winner will receive an
additional 5,000 sestertii award!

Join the Venationes! Pick your fighter and make him/her battle
against wild animals in the arena!!!

Find out how to do that at
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/venat.html

OPTIME VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
Scriba Aedilis Plebis Cicatricis

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Christanity and the loss of the Western Provinces
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:30:26 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>

>
>Would you and anyone else who wants to please read my message no 3813
>regarding Emperor worship. There was tons of letters posted sice then
>and I can see how it could be overlooked.
>
I think this has a lot to do with Christianity, possibly then and certainly as the Christian world interpreted emperor worship. As far as I know, no emperor was legitimately worshiped in his lifetime though the infamous occasionally claimed divine honours, notably Nero who based his reign on the Ptolemeys, of whom it must be said that they were one of the few things madder than he was!
An old translation (17th cent) of Suetonius says 'Claudius was made a Saint in Heaven' and that is probably the best way to understand post-mortem deification. The Latin for a god is Deus, for a deified mortal, Divus: same word essentially but different formation. During his life, the Emperor would embody the Essence ('Spirit') of the State and have a special intercessory position with the gods for the State, as today's Japanese Emperor does. Augustus had after all arrogated the position of Pontifex Maximus to himself after the death of poor old Lepidus. Worship of him would in theological legal nit-picking be worship of the State's Guiding Genius expressed through him, not of the man himself.
Once he is dead, then he may become a minor deity, Divus, in his own right, but he is never an eternal pre-existent Deus and as Divus is essentially to the State what the Guardian Ancestors are to the Gens. Ancestors were prayed to and honoured, if not 'worshiped'. So were dead Emperors. Live ones after all, were Pater Patriae.
Provincials probably had little care for theological nicities, particularly Eastern ones who were used to defining royalty as divine (which suggests that what they understood by divine is closer to what we might consider merely 'inspired' - after all, modern monarchs are anointed in a ceremony emulating Church hierarchy with the 'laying on of hands'). Jews and Christians were not going to argue the letter of a law which in practice amounted to divine honours either.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:40:15 +0000 (GMT)

----Original Message-----
>From : g_agorius_taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I think that sexuality of any kind that does not violate the rights
>of another person is no matter for state or temple to get involved
>with. If an adult woman wants to have sex with a man for money, so be
>it.
>
Agreed but the essence of prostitution is that the woman does *not* want to share sex. If she did, she would not be charging for it. By suppressing her own sexuality, she turns it into a commodity to exploit men. Note that there are hardly any prostitutes for women because men (and Lesbians) havea hard enough time of it being accepted as equals to be able to say No until the price is right. St. Augustine put it in perspective, if also in reverse, by declaring that Christian Rome must *not* forbid prostitution "For without prostitutes there would be no virgins". The truth is that without virgins there would be no prostitutes. Both are the same thing at extremes of the price scale.
Feminism appears to have done no more than give women better reasons to believe sex degrading and subordinating, so whether women are naturally les sexual or feminism merely allowed the already inhibited to feel free to do as they wanted, and what they wanted was inhibition, I do not know. Certainly, the assertive sexual woman feared by moralists has largely been replaced by the assertively anti-sexual woman saying exactly what the moralists did while claiming opposite reasons (except for teenagers, who are always promiscuous).
Vib Amb Caes.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:49:29 +0100

Salvete Amici!

This one is easy. I have daughter, I would never like to see her as a
prostitute, why would I then ask You to offer your daughter?
--
Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas and Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Farewell
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:41:27 -0600 (CST)

Salve Diotima Mortifera,

> I'm sorry to see, from tumultuous discussions on this list,
> that Nova Roma is indeed not the place I had thought it.

It is many things. It is a community of persons with very different
opinions, who sometimes engage in debate. But we also have common
interests, and the shared bond that results from that.

We're not merely about arguments on a mailing list. We have real-life
meetings, such as Roman Days (Maryland), the Fort Malden (Ontario)
and Lacus Magni (Ohio) events, and the Nova Roma Rally in Europe.
We assemble repositories of Roman cultural and historical resources
on our various web sites.

You've only been here a few days... but stay a while longer, and see
what Nova Roma is. Many of us find the current debate very interesting,
but if it repels you, you can delete those messages and wait for other
topics.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma: Rome Evolves
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:45:49 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:

> "As a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland
> and worldly focus for the Religio Romana"
> From the Preamble to Nova Roma's present Constitution.
>
> "The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall
> be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."
> From the preamble of Nova Roma's original
> Constitution.
>
> Nova Roma was founded as the focus for the restoration
> of the ancient Religio. I'm sorry if anyone was
> misinformed about the nature of Nova Roma. You should
> have done more research into the nation before
> submitting your aplication for citizenship.

The current Constitution also states in II.a.3 "Citizenship is open
to anyone regardless of ethnic heritage, gender, religious
affiliation, or sexual orientation." The question that comes to my
mind, and has troubled me while reading the many varied posts is
while section II.a.3 says that non-pagans (amongs others) are
welcome; just how welcome are we? Sulla himself has pointed out
that he is a practicing Jew and has completed the Cursus Honorum.
Are we welcome and can reach the highest offices of Nova Roma but
still be considered "second class citizens" in the minds of those who
are not monotheists? If that is the case, may I humbly suggest that
us "second class citizens" receive a tax break?

For brevity I have snipped the rest of your post. I agree with you
that in a restored Religio that the rituals involving animal
sacrifice can not be ignored and forgotten by its Collegium and
followers simply because it makes a few (or even many) squeamish. In
my mind telling the Religio that you can't do that because it upset
modern sensiblities is akin to Baptists telling Catholics that they
can not have Communion because the Baptists don't believe in
transubstantiation or PETA telling Orthodox Jews they can't have
their Passover Seder because of the main dish being lamb and it
upsets their animal rights beliefs.

I have no problem with anyone's religious beliefs. A person's
religious beliefs is their relationship with the Divine regardless of
how one defines it. I have no problem with studying the Religio in
purely academic terms, and that applies to all of the other
various "ism's" that the world has to offer. When I was ill this
past August with a kidney stone, bladder infection, and then got hit
with viral conjunctivitis Patricia Cassia offered prayers and
offerings to Minerva for my healing. I did not reject those prayers
and offerings because of to whom she was offering them. I greatly
appreciated her for it. When Patricia was ill I offered up my own
prayers on her behalf to my God and she gladly appreciated that as
well. While our religious beliefs differ there was no difference in
our response.

At the risk of offending the pagan citizenry of Nova Roma who have
been greatly turned off to Christianity by the abuses of those that
claim to be Christian, I offer the example of Mother Theresa to
counter that abuse. Of the hundreds of thousands of sick and dying
Hindus she and her nuns cared for in their last hours on this planet,
how many did she convert? Very few. How many did she love? Every
last one of them.

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:27:35 -0800 (PST)

I just want to say that if this idea ever catches on,
I have a business plan:

Equitius Marinus Escorts --
Virile gentlemen for discriminating Roman ladies.

"If your husband's youth is spent,
His get up and go has went,
We can straighten what is bent!
Call our hotline now!"



=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Fwd: Re: [ThuleNovaRoma] -Allow me to introduce myself - Gallus Minucius Iovinus!
From:	"jmath669642reng" <jmath669642reng@webtv.net>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:02:05 -0000

--- In ThuleNovaRoma@y..., jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
Master Galius Minucius Iouvinus;

Welcome to the Gens Minucia. You come with not only a significant
measure of accomplishment and promise with your own impressive efforts
to date, as we have discussed, but in addition you bear with you the
recommendation of my Honored Beneficarius Caeso Quintillianus. I am
pleased indeed to have you in my Gens, and I expect great things from
you here in Nova Roma (Grin!!!!).

----Citizens and Citizen--Applicants of Nova Roma:

I also wish to address the labors of the Honored Censors of Nova Roma on
this topic. I have heard much on this list in regard to those who have
waited weeks and even months for thier cirizenshup to become effective.
Master Iouvinus contacted me yesterday, and today he is a citizen.

Now, I don't think that anyone can do better than that. There are many
Gens here in Nova Roma that would be glad to recieve new members, and do
so periodically, and whose response will allow a similar efficient and
timely reply. If you, as a Citizen Applicant, choose to determine it to
be necessary to be involved in a Gens which for some reason does not
answer your inquiry, or if you wish to create your own Gens, that is
certainly your business, however, the responsibiity of the Censors
centers around the requirements and procedures for granting a
Citizenship, and not the vagarities of someone who has chosen to desert
or is unabl to continue thier commitment. Each of the two above
situations requires an extensive investigation before Citizenship can be
granted under those limitations of your request. I have been asked to
look into several similar situations by my constituents, and each time I
have found that the Censors are on top of the situation. Only once have
I found a problem, in a situation where information was not passed on
from one Censor leaving to a new one coming in. On that occasion the
information was again provided to the proper person and the result was
an immediate granting of Citizenship.

Add to this particular stuation that I am so inept at computer usage
that I can't even make a perfectly straight-forward set of directions
come out right, and in error actually rejected Master Iouvinus, before
we got the whole mess, that I had caused, straigtened out. Even with
that rather glaring error on my part the Censors delivered a Citizenship
to a new applicant within, by my reckoning, 24 hours. To me that
deserves my strongest appreciation and approbation.

If you are searching for the "right Gens" then ask those on this Main
List or other related lists, who have been around for awhile and who
from thier words and deeds here on the Main List you have a confidence
in. When I have problems or need to make a decision or find an answer
to an NR related question, I am not ashamed or hesitant at all, to go to
my Benificari, the Senators with whom I have dealt with before, and have
a confidence in, or those citizens of Nova Roma who have worked with me
in the Sodalitas, or in other areas, and have indicated that they have
the stability, good ideas, and information that I need. To these people
I give my question and carefully consider their reply, and then make my
decision.

If you choose not to seek out assistance in gaining citizenship to Nova
Roma, that is certainly the business of any individual. However, I ask
that in the light of this extraordinary service performed with Master
Iouvinus, and all the work and behind the scenes, the arrangements and
documentation required to arrive at such a smooth operation, even in the
face of an inept internet member, that the Censors be given the
appreciation that they certainly deserve, and the Citizen-Applcants
isolate thier individual preferences from the established
responsibiities that the Censors operate both with and under.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
--- End forwarded message ---

Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Nova-Roma]_Re:_Constantinus_et_Teodosius_-_Trying_II?=
From:	"=?utf-8?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:10:01 +0200

> Eminentissimus et Insignis Consul

I shall hardly find a proper mean to express how proud I am that you
found some of your time to answer to me.
I shall take a bit of time before replying, as I would like to read and
think throughfully to what you wrote and argued.
I feel miserable as I can't handle the English language properly
enough to state clearly what I think.

At least one point I didn't manage to express. I shall try again.

Obviously Rome can't end. I am very proud of my genuine roman blood,
but it's quite evident that Rome is something spiritual and perpetually
existent, in the skyes( to put it in platonic terms) and for this
patent reason everyone who recognizes Rome is Roman anywhere on earth.
And for this reason my blood ends in counting very, very little.

But much earlier than Divus Augustus Rome came to existence following a
pact between the Gods and the Town.
Everything started with the Augusto Augurio of Romulus, and even when
the Magistrates were not sacerdotes Rome, the STATE, was a religious
entity, which went on through the Republic to which I am faithful
through the Rex Sacrificulus. The pact between the Gods and the State
has been one day RESCINDED by Gratianus. Rome as a State ended.
Certainly not Rome in itself, and anyday is a good one to stipulate
that pact again.
Every single act of Roman policy was a religious act, from a
declaration of war to each and every triumph celebrated.
I was trying to point that "quae sunt Caesaris" and "quae sunt Dei"
were not separate nor separable.
The State insisted on certain precise cults which, once rescinded, made
the Pact, the Pax Deorum (pact, not peace) at least stop.
Vettius Agorius Pretestatus fought that famous battle to restore the
Pact and consequently the State itself. I am not giving licences of
Romanity or denying them to somebody: I am uderlining the difference
between Roman State and Eternal Rome, the Idea that can any minute
become operating again.
What is patent is that Emperor Gratianus, though a young boy, did what
he did because of his faith which separated Caesr's and God's.
For this reason what you Consul wrote, is clearly correct.
In Rome no separation from "politics" and religion was possible.

Thankyou, most honorable Consul, for the attention that you paid to me
and please accept my devout respect,

Gallus Solaris Alexander

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Symbolic Animal Sacrifice
From:	"T. Cornelius Crispus" <centuriocornelius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:30:24 -0600

Thank you, that was what I wanted to know.
T. Cornelius Crispus
----- Original Message -----
From: "g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:10 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Symbolic Animal Sacrifice


> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "T. Cornelius Crispus"
> <centuriocornelius@h...> wrote:
> > Ave Strabo,
> > Could you please clarify one thing for me. I don't understand how
> an animal
> > is symoblicly sacrificed. Could you please explain?
> > Vale,
> > T. Cornelius Crispus
>
>
> I know you didn't ask me, and perhaps you are asking for a historical
> perspective on this subject that Strabo may have some insight into,
> but I happen to perform symbolic animal sacrifices for an Oracle to
> Hecate Triformus that I administer, so I can answer your question.
>
> Historically, effigy animals (and people in some places)
> were "killed" or sacrificed just as you would expect- being stabbed,
> burned, etc. The effigy often was prepared in some way to "enliven"
> it beforehand, endowing it with a "life" or a "spirit" that would be
> the true offering. It's a very standard 'sympathetic magic' type
> operation; what is done symbolically in this reality has echoes of
> sympathy on others; symbol and reality correlate.
>
> In modern day, for instance, we sacrifice hounds (black or darkly
> colored hounds) to Hecate at times. We use clay models, sometimes
> with the spittle or tiny amounts of blood or hair of actual dogs
> mixed into the clay before it is shaped. The clay is of course darkly
> colored, and it is hollow. Inside these clay figures is placed any
> natural red liquid or oil to act as "blood"; sometimes this has
> minute amounts of actual dog's blood in it, but not often. The model
> is shaped, and made quite detailed, and it is "named" and "fed"
> daily, and treated in every respect as though it is a real living
> breathing animal.
>
> When the time comes to "kill" it in sacrifice, it is stabbed, and
> it's blood flows out, and in ritual circumstances, this lifelike
> model/symbol is used and treated in every respect as a real, living
> animal. It's dismembered parts are burned or buried, or whatever.
>
> We find that the efficacy of the whole sacrifice is increased greatly
> when secondary and tertiary offerings are offered up with it. The
> real point of symbolic animal sacrifice is to be true to the
> tradition in a modern fashion. The theory is not modern; symbolic
> sympathetic images have been used in this way for millenia.
>
>
> Galus Agorius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RES:_EDICTUM_TEMPLI_CONCORDIAE_n=BAII?=
From:	"Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:00:15 -0200

Salve, Honorável Lucius Arminius Fausts!

Eu confesso que fiquei um pouco surpreso com minha nomeação, a princípio....
Mas agora estou incrivelmente feliz e honrado por você ter me escolhido para
este cargo :)
Espero que eu possa realmente fazer jus à sua confiança.
Que os deuses possam mesmo me ajudar nesta tarefa.
Muito obrigado...

Vale in pace.
Titus Arminius Genialis.

-----Mensagem original-----
De: Lucius Arminius Faustus [mailto:lafaustus@yahoo.com.br]
Enviada em: terça-feira, 29 de outubro de 2002 17:41
Para: Titus Arminius Genialis; Lista_religiao; ListaBrasileira; LISTONA
Assunto: EDICTUM TEMPLI CONCORDIAE nºII


EDICTUM TEMPLI CONCORDIAE nºII
Nomeação de um apparitor


Na vacância de um sacerdote, pelos poderes a mim conferidos como scriba
pelo Estatuto do Templo da Concordia, nomeio o honoravel cidadao Titus
Arminius Genialis Apparitor do Templo Provincial da Concordia, especialmente
dedicado ao culto da deusa Salvação Pública. Ele provou-se digno do cargo e
bastante interessado nos assuntos da Religio Romana. Esta nossa homenagem é
um dos mais sinceros agradecimentos pelos seus trabalhos em prol do
incremento da vida novoromana provincial como tradutor.

Salve, Titus Arminius Genialis, que os deuses lhe abençoem pelo seu
trabalho!

O Templo pode ser acessado por
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/aedes/aedes.html




EDICTUM TEMPLI CONCORDIAE nºII
Nomination of an apparitor

On the vacancy of a priest, by the Imperium confered to me as scriba by
the Statute of the Temple of Concordia, I nominate the honorable citizen
Titus Arminius Genialis as Apparitor of the Provincial Temple of Concordia,
specially dedicated to the worship of the goddess Salus Publica. He has
proved himself worthy of the office and very interested on the Religio
Romana subject. This is our public thanks by his efforts for the increase of
novaroman life on our province as a translator.


Salve, Titus Arminius Genialis, may the Gods bless you for your works!

The Temple can be found in
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/aedes/aedes.html








Vale bene in pacem deorum,




L. Arminius Faustus

Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae, scriba tribuni plebis.

Member of Decuriae Interpretes - (portuguese chair)

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html



Se de ócio estou, divirto-me escrevendo,

Entre os defeitos meus, este enumero...

Satira Quarta, Horácio





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Farewell
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:46:47 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Diotima Mortifera,
>
> > I'm sorry to see, from tumultuous discussions on this list,
> > that Nova Roma is indeed not the place I had thought it.
>
>Salve Diotima Mortifera et Omnes,

Over the last several days some Nova Romans pointed out that they
joined Nova Roma for Religio Romano. That is well and good but I want
to profess that I joined Nova Roma for the comradeship and the MAIN
LIST. Without this list, its characters and yes, sometimes tumultuous
debates I think Nova Roma would gradually fizzel away. There are
hundreds of other websites, some of which I belong to that you are
lucky to see one or 2 postings a month.

>From this list you can find your way to lots of other sites and
projects. Without the list I think I may have just passed this site
buy after glancing at it for a few minutes. For those who don't see
my point, why not shut this main list down for a month or 2 and see
what happens.

Even when I discuss things and whether I am proved right or wrong in
discussions I can tell you I sure learned a lot and am better for it!
As Senator Germanicus says, why not stick around a while and give it
a chance? Also a sales pitch - we could sure use you in our Roman
North African Website project. Tons of research and work to do there
and No arguments.

Regards - Quintus Lanius Paulinus