Subject:	[Nova-Roma] This will be the final!
From:	"Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@inicia.es>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 00:27:00 -0000

This will be the great Final of Ludi Maximi Circenses:


Gladius Albus
driver: Damnator
by Marcus Octavius Solaris
Race tactic: (4)
Factio: Albata

Inexpugnabilis
driver: Ignis
by Caius Curius Saturninus
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Praesina

Crux Australis
driver: Victor Hispanicus
by Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Race tactic: (6)
Factio: Veneta

Essedum
driver: Italicus
by Manius Constantinus Serapio
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Praesina


2 greens, 1 blue and one white. All is possible on the sand!



Salix Galaicus
scriba cursus equorum aedilis curulis
(scribe of the races)

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LUDI MAXIMI CIRCENSES: Semi-finals
From:	"Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@inicia.es>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 00:24:28 -0000

Citizens!

These are the semi-finals of the Ludi Maximi Circenses.

The Gods bless the winners!


SEMIFINALS
------------------------------------------------------------

GROUP I

Inexpugnabilis
driver: Ignis
by Caius Curius Saturninus
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Praesina

Gladius Albus
driver: Damnator
by Marcus Octavius Solaris
Race tactic: (4)
Factio: Albata

Basilea
driver: Septimius Raurax
by Tiberius Annaeus Otho
Race tactic: (6)
Factio: Praesina

Delecta Mea
driver: Scorpianus
by Jullila Sempronia Magna
Race tactic: (2)
Factio: Praesina

Results
1st: Accident
2nd: Accident
3th: Inexpugnabilis
4th: Gladius Albus

GO IN FINAL: Inexpugnabilis and Gladius Albus

A race in which the green chariots were looking like the favorites
and the white chariot seemed a propiciatory victim. Nevertheless, the
white chariot was Gladius Albus, led by the terrible, wicked and wild
Damnator, "the insatiable whip ". The green fans had to see the
torture of their loved Delecta Mea and Basilea, which drivers, horses
and even wheels were lashed mercilessly by the perfidious Damnator.
The Basilea´s horses, upset by the pain, escaped towards the stables
without his driver could do nothing to avoid it, suffering the jeers
of the fans of all the colors fewer - of course - the green one.
His owner Julilla Sempronia asked publicly for the annulment of the
race, because Damnator is not a driver, but a gladiator with grave
mental disorders. He must not take part in the races of the circus,
but in bloody venationes. Besides, his driving licence is illegal!
But the Aedilis Curulis did not accept her claims. He didn´t want to
anger the public, very happy with so exciting show.
Damnator continued his hunt. Inexpugnabilis was very far thanks to
the great speed of its horses and the skill of its driver Ignis. But
Delecta Mea was nearby and Damnator attacked it furiously. The green
chariot tried to escape approaching the spina, but it hit on the edge
and overturned on the sand, under the Damnator's malignant guffaws.
Finally Inexpugnabilis came the first to the goal, but the greens
were not glad very much, due to the second post of Gladius Albus.
Some white fans are thinking of constructing a temple in honor of
Damnator, the new "infernal semigod".


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

GROUP II

Furor Teutonicus
driver: Scissor Obscurvs Northmannvs
by Alexander Solaris Draco
Race tactic: (4)
Factio: Russata

Essedum
driver: Italicus
by Manius Constantinus Serapio
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Praesina

B.S.D. Liber
driver: Carolus Daemonicus
by Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Race tactic: (1)
Factio: Albata

Crux Australis
driver: Victor Hispanicus
by Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Race tactic: (6)
Factio: Veneta

Results
1st: Crux Australis
2nd: Essedum
3th: Furor Teutonicus
4th: B.S.D. Liber

GO IN FINAL: Crux Australis and Essedum

After a lot of time, finally a race with a chariot of every factio.
The emotion exceeds the steps. The few blue fans have prayed to all
the known and unknown gods, asking for the victory of their only
hero: Victor Hispanicus of Crus Australis. The greens do not pray,
trust in the experience and force of their superchampion Essedum. The
whites give courage to B.S.D Liber, other of their heroes. While the
red ones don´t know what to do with Furor Teutonicus and its bastard
insane driver, the madman Scissor. Many red fans hate him!
The race was fast. Crus Australis and Essedum demonstrated their
good physical form, taking clear advantage from the first lap.
Scissor wanted to catch them but he could not. Very angry, he decided
to chase B.S.D Liber, but the white chariot did an unexpected action.
It turned in a straight line and ran in opposite direction! Scissor
gives very much fear, there is no doubt, but this was incredible. The
white chariot got into the stables to escape of the teutonic ire. The
white fans, angry and humiliated, asking for the same thing that
Julilla Sempronia and the Aedilis Curulis answered the same thing to
them also: The show must go.
Scissor, perplex and solitary, without victims to his scope, cried
as a baby on the sand, while Crus Australis and Essedum were
disputing a long and fast sprint. The blue chariot accelerated in the
last second and obtained the victory for a little mane of advantage.
The blue fans exploded of joy and threw artificial rockets during
hours to celebrate the great victory of their superhero Victor
Hispanicus and his Crus Australis. The sad red ones, without any
chariot of their Armada in the final, accompanied Scissor in his
wolfish cryings.


Soon the Great Final!

Bona Fortuna for the 4 chariots!

Salix Galaicus
scriba cursus equorum aedilis curulis
(scribe of the races)

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some reflections on the resignation of Cornelia Strabo
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:27:03 +0000 (GMT)

Cn. Equitius Marinus wrote:

> I read her explanation as saying that she could not
> in conscience uphold her oaths of office any longer,
> because they bind her to the protection of the
> Religio Romana. Therefore she resigned from all the
> offices which had required that oathbinding from her.
>
> I think she wants to feel at liberty to speak out
> against those people she considers religious bigots.
> Of course, I could be wrong. But that was my take
> on her logic.

If this is the case, it wasn't clear to me from her message. And if it is the case, then I should still be inclined to say that such a decision could be considered rather selfish, in that it involved putting one's own feelings before one's duties and responsibilities to the electorate.

However, I don't consider that your interpretation is correct. Of course, I speak from no personal acquaintance with the former Praetor, but on the grounds of logic I should say that desire to free herself from her oath would not have entailed resigning from the Senate, whose non-magisterial members do not have to take any oath that I know of, nor would it have entailed witholding taxes from the state, which does not require any oath of tax-payers. Further, if what she sought was 'liberty to speak out against those people she considers religious bigots', regardless of whether one thinks that the oath of office curtails such liberty or not (it seems clear to me that it does not), a desire for such liberty would surely not be served by resigning from the main forum of public conversation.

Jamie




www.strategikon.org




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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Action & Responsibility
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:36:59 +0000 (GMT)

Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis, quoting Noam Chomsky, wrote:

> "You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own actions. You
> are not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions."

If anyone thinks this is too far from any reasonable topic of discussion, please say so, but the quotation Caesariensis has in his signature appeared to me in a new light when I read his last message, in view of what some (including myself) have recently been saying about the resignation of our former Praetor.

I don't want here to get into discussions about that particular case, as we're happily examining it in other threads, but I should like to pose a general question of ethics to anyone interested in philosophical debate: should we not add to this couplet the statement, 'You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own *inactions*'?

Jamie




www.strategikon.org




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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Blasphemy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:41:56 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

The Key point in Pompeia Cornelia's last post is being
over looked.
>
> We have no rights as nonpractitioners.....we have a
> double
> standard...citizenship is open without
> discrimination, the constitution
> says, but then it says that those who say anything
> about the Religio or its
> practitioners, even those who are obviously very
> fundamentalist, who promote
> religious prejudice, are subject to being called
> 'blasphemers'

This refers to section VI a. of Nova Roma's
constitution the key phrase being

"Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be
practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not
engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes
or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its
practitioners."

During a discussion last year I warned that this
section of the Constitution could have a chilling
effect on freedom of Speach in Nova Roma, and alas I
have been proven correct.

Not just a citizen, but the Urban Praetor, one of the
highest Magistrates in Nova Roma found herself facing
a delimia that if she spoke out to defend a faith that
is dear to her and that was under a very unfair
attack, she could be facing posible criminal charges
for Blasphemy. Her assement was correct.

The intent of that section of the Constitution may be
inocent of an intention to strip non-pagans of a means
of defending themselves against a bigoted and unfair
attack on thier faith, but the lack of a definition of
what does and does not constitute Blasphemy leaves
citizens in doubt about what they may or may not say,
and results in a self censorship that may be far in
excess of the framers intent.

One of two things needs to be done. Either this
section of the Constitution needs to be removed via an
admendment, or we need to pass a Lex that narrowly
defines Blasphemy so that our non Pagan citizens won't
be in constant doubt about what they may or may not
say in a situation like this or any similar situation
that may arise.

Right now we have a nonobjective law set forth in the
Constitution that can result in criminal charges for a
statement depending on the whim a magistrate. Laws
like this cause great harm under the best of
magistrates because of the uncertainity they cause,
and are a clear danger to all citizens if the
Magistrate has the fanatical attitude that Taurinus
displayed yesterday.

We need a clear objective definition of Blasphemy
enacted into law, or we need to remove the phrase
regarding it from Nova Roma's Constitution.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On Cornelia's resignation
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:43:16 +0000 (GMT)

Q. Fabius Maximus wrote (among other things):

> Romans! This knee jerk reaction to unfortunate events will not do.

I quite agree with this and the associated gist of Maximus' messages, and his invocation of the ancient Romans is apt. I would, however (and perhaps at some risk of repeating myself in different words), like to take issue with one statement of his:

> If someone is standing by
> a temple corner inciting a riot, you have two choices. Rush over and take
> part, or ignore it.

It seems to me there is a third and very important choice: if you do not support the riot, do what is in your power to prevent it.

Jamie




www.strategikon.org




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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Editum Propraetoricium III: Dismissals
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:44:46 -0000

Effective this date, Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus, Legate, and
Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus Minor, Legate, are dismissed from their
respective offices in this province, on the grounds that they are
nowhere to be found email is either unanswered or returned as
undeliverable.

Signed this date, October 30, 2002

Gaius Cassius Nerva
Propraetor Mediatlantica

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Edictum Propraetoricium IV: Appointment of Sacerdotis
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:52:43 -0000

I hope this is the correct Latin term.

I wish to anounce the appointment of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus as
sacerdotis for Mediatlantica. As a Pontiff in Nova Roma, I cannot
think of anyone better for this post.

He will not be taking up the office untio his term as censor is
completed at the end of the year.
Nevertheless, I wanted to make the announcement early.

Signed October 30, 2002

Gaius Cassius Nerva
Propraetor Mediatlantica

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Freedom of Speach
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:10:03 -0800 (PST)

--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> > Freedom of speach does not mean that you have a
> moral
> > blank check. If you make comments that others find
> > morally offensive, they have the right to judge
> you by
> > the comments you make.
>
> I am absolutely in agreement with this. When
> someone says
> something disagreeable or offensive, it is quite
> right to
> counter their argument with your own, or refuse any
> contact
> with that person.
>
> But I must fight against any attempts to banish a
> person,
> or forbid him from attending public events, merely
> because
> of his opinions or his argumentative style.
>
I Found some of Taurinus opinions and his style very
objectable. However he is a Roman citizen and under
the protections of Roman Law. He is a resident of my
Provincia, and I had no intention of attempting to
place him under any restrictions about attending
public meetings in the Provincia.

I Have a severe dislike for Ex Post Facto laws. What
he said and did was legal at the time, and any attempt
to punish him for a legal action, regardless of my
personal view of that action would be worse than
anything he said.

However I do have an obligation to maintain order.
Citizens of the Provincia are planning an informal
meeting later this year at Stone Mountain. Prior to
that meeting I intend to promulgate an edict regarding
disrupting a public meeting of Roman Citizens that
will give myself or my Legates the authority to
require anyone who is being disruptive to leave that
meeting.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Freedom of Speach
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:23:41 -0600 (CST)

Salve Luci Sicini,

> However I do have an obligation to maintain order.
> Citizens of the Provincia are planning an informal
> meeting later this year at Stone Mountain. Prior to
> that meeting I intend to promulgate an edict regarding
> disrupting a public meeting of Roman Citizens that
> will give myself or my Legates the authority to
> require anyone who is being disruptive to leave that
> meeting.

An excellent idea.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] duo denarii mei on the religion/bigotry debate
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:01:18 -0500

Remember Socrates was condemned to death for atheism by a pagan state
because he taught people to think for themselves.

As a wise fool once said, "can't we all just get along?"

Ti. Ambrosius Silvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Animal sacrifice or BBQ? Both?
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:51:10 -0500

Salve Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius,

Thank you for your kind words. I am glad you found my theory helpful.
I do think that the most important parts of the sacrificial feast are
1. symbolic dedication to deity as a form of thanks, 2. communion with
the people, and 3. Traditional ritual to connect with the ancestors.
Although it would be good to find out how and what the Romans actually
ate at the feasts, if the people want barbecue, then barbecue they
should have! :) Maybe the Romans knew the secret of a great barbecue: garum?

Good luck in your research, do let us know what you discover.

Vale,
Ti. Ambrosius Silvus


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank & K.C. [mailto:shamrock@cros.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 30 October, 2002 09:57
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Animal sacrifice or BBQ? Both?
> Salve,
> Tiberius Ambrosius Silvus
>
> I decided to take a pause from my studying of the Religio subjects of
> Rome and the subject of my new post as Septemviri Epulones. From the
> amount of posts since the last time I looked in ( 2 weeks ago) I must
> have missed some real sparring. I tried to glance thru most of the
> posts but I quickly realized that this thread was a dead end with
> only a few results available. Unfortunately I realized this when I
> came upon Pompeia Cornelia Strabo resignation. I usaually stay away
> from this type of argument as A. I'm Irish and only glib when it
> comes to hedonistic pleasures and B. I have very little talent for
> debate as my attention starts to waiver after a few minutes. I did
> however appreciate your post regarding sacrifices. It was very
> insightful and plausable and thus it made me realize the evolution of
> offerings. My duty as Epulones is to help establish the organization
> of the great feasts during the Ludis , specifically the Epulum Lovis.
> There is very little information available to the actual workings of
> the office or for that matter the formulation of the Feasts. Your
> post was like a breath of fresh air as I have been "dwelling" for
> days on various websites, struggling thru very bad translations in a
> myriad of different languages. You made me wonder - Is barbeque a tad
> bit too radical for NR's festivals? ;) I am always all ears when
> anyone is willing to offer me suggestions or knowledge that I'm
> completely missing and I'm never too proud to take any suggestions
> from citizens.Thanks again for your input.
>
> Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius
> Epulones
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Christians, Pagans, and a special honor
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:26:13 -0600 (CST)

Omnibus Civibus Novae Romae M. Octavius salutem plurinam dicit,

We've just emerged from a rather acrimonious debate, primarily about
ancient history, but about topics that many people care passionately
about. Persons upheld as heroes by some of us are thought the worst
kind of villains and murderers by others here; and the same can be
said for the heroes of the latter group. Tempers have flared, and
a valued magistrate has lain down her offices.

Nova Roma was founded with the intent of restoring the classical
Roman Religion, and that has not changed. This is a fundamental
part of our mission, and can never be abandoned. Yet many citizens
are here due to a love of other aspects of Rome, its history,
language and culture, and we pagans should welcome and respect
them.

It has been said here recently that monotheists, particularly
Christians, are considered by some to be "second class citizens"
or "unwelcome". I dispute this perception. All are welcome,
and have been from the beginning. We have had Christian and
Jew occupy every major office: Censor, Consul, Praetor,
Propraetor, Senator, and most if not all of the junior magistracies
as well.

I attended a provincial event last month. Our host was a Catholic,
who welcomed the Pagans from out of town, and stood by respectively
as the invocation to Minerva was made. We were brought together,
at great expense and from large distances away, by our mutual
admiration for Roman culture, and we parted peacefully and with
mutual liking.

In spite of some fundamental differences in opinion, we can still
respect each other, and strive together to restore the Roman
Republic.

I have, for some time, been planning to confer a special honor
on one Senator; one who has, on numerous occasions, reminded
us to act in a dignified and respectful manner. His hard work
in the Sodalitates, the Senate, in every office of the Cursus
Honorum is an inspiration to us all. He has the ability to
cooperate with people very different from himself to achieve
our common goals.

Our most respected Senator and Citizen is Marcus Minucius Audens.
He is a Christian.

On November 1st, I will ask the Senate to grant Senator Audens
the honorary title of "Princeps Senatus", or First Senator.
If the Senate approves (and I strongly believe that they will),
he will hold that title for life.

I have been planning to ask the Senate to bestow this honor for
several months; I announce it now, to show that there truly is
mutual liking and respect between Pagan and Christian amongst the
leadership of Nova Roma, and that by no means does religion limit
what one may achieve here, or who one's friends are.

Valete, M. Octavius Germanicus,
Consul.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Vatican Library going online
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:48:42 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

I Have just read some very good news. Hewlett Packard
has reached an agreement with the Vatican to place the
Vatican Libray online. Some of you may think that this
is primarly of intrest to Catholics, but there is far
more in the Vatican Library than doccuments relating
to the Church.

The Vatican Library is by far the largest Latin
Library on Earth, and it contains doccuments dating
back to Imperial times. As it's contents become
availble this will be a major source of information
about Roma Antiquita.

The Library contains millions of books and Papers. It
will take years to get it all online, but the wait
will be worth it.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Animal sacrifice or BBQ? Both?
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:59:54 EST

Well said and gently spoken, Tb. Ambrosius Silvus, in a way to make Tullus
Cicero proud. Vale.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] duo denarii mei on the religion/bigotry debate
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:54:41 -0500

On Wed, Oct 30, 2002 at 10:01:18PM -0500, Christopher L. Wood wrote:
> Remember Socrates was condemned to death for atheism by a pagan state
> because he taught people to think for themselves.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Socrates was not accused of atheism, and it
had nothing to do with "teaching people to think for themselves".
<http://socrates.clarke.edu/> contains the text of "The Last Days of
Socrates" (including Jowett's notes) and should be sufficiently
informative.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quam bene vivas refert, non quam diu.
The important thing isn't how long you live, but how well you live.
-- Seneca Philosophus, "Epistulae"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Animal sacrifice or BBQ? Both?
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:34:36 EST

I was recently doing some research on the Panatheniad and the subject of
sacrifice in the Grecian manner was mentioned in a number of works by
Xenophon, Euripides, and some modern authors.
According to the sources, after the sacrificial victory had given its
symbolic permission to proceed with the rite (the sacrificer splashed the
animal liberally with cold water until it shuddered), the throat was cut so
that some of the blood would spurt onto the altar but most was retained in a
vessel. The technicalities of the prays that followed depended on the nature
of the dieties and circumstances of the sacrifice (vow, obligation, state
rite). The thighs of the sacrificial animal were wrapped in the purest white
fat and then burned on the altar. The rest of the animal was then dressed,
jointed, and usually boiled in cauldrons before being consumed. Although
Xenophon seems to indicate that the Thracians boiled the meat in a cauldron
made from the animal's own skin (hair out of course). This whole matter got
me to thinking about my boyhood.
I was raised in West Tennessee and spend a few late Fall holidays at my
relatives' homes down in Mississippi. We'd usually butcher a large hog and
sometimes a calf. It was not the most fun that I've ever had especially
since I had to take a turn stirring the souse pot (if you don't know, you are
lucky). One thing that I just remembered was that two of my maternal uncles
always said a short prayer to God just before they slit the animals' throats.
I called one of my surviving uncles (in his 90s) and asked him about it. He
said that his father always did it and so did his grandfather and he guesses
that it has been going on in the family before that. Mighty odd when you
think that my maternal family has been Baptist since they got off the boat
from England in the 1820s. Vale.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Christians, Pagans, and a special honor
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:37:36 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
>
<snipped>
> I have, for some time, been planning to confer a special honor
> on one Senator; one who has, on numerous occasions, reminded
> us to act in a dignified and respectful manner. His hard work
> in the Sodalitates, the Senate, in every office of the Cursus
> Honorum is an inspiration to us all. He has the ability to
> cooperate with people very different from himself to achieve
> our common goals.
>
> Our most respected Senator and Citizen is Marcus Minucius Audens.
> He is a Christian.
>
> On November 1st, I will ask the Senate to grant Senator Audens
> the honorary title of "Princeps Senatus", or First Senator.
> If the Senate approves (and I strongly believe that they will),
> he will hold that title for life.
>
> I have been planning to ask the Senate to bestow this honor for
> several months; I announce it now, to show that there truly is
> mutual liking and respect between Pagan and Christian amongst the
> leadership of Nova Roma, and that by no means does religion limit
> what one may achieve here, or who one's friends are.
>
> Valete, M. Octavius Germanicus,
> Consul.


An admirable and estimable gesture to a man of the highest integrity.
I highly commend and endorse your proposal. Audens exemplifies some
of the best values we uphold, including firmitas, veritas, pietas,
and more besides.

---
bene vale!
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] New Rites from the New Priests/Priestesses?
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:47:17 EST

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to the members of the Sacred Colleges
and all pontiffs. Salvete.

I was delighted to see so many citizens have decided to devote themselves of
the Gods of NR. I sincerely hope that we will be seeing much new information
on rites, prayers, altar dedications, and such from you all. It cannot be
stressed how much the priests are responsible for the growth of our body of
knowledge and ritual of the Religio. We should all make sure that we
remember them in our prayers. Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Christians, Pagans, and a special honor
From:	"radams36" <radams36@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 05:29:20 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
>
> Omnibus Civibus Novae Romae M. Octavius salutem plurinam dicit,
>
> We've just emerged from a rather acrimonious debate, primarily about
> ancient history, but about topics that many people care passionately
> about. Persons upheld as heroes by some of us are thought the worst
> kind of villains and murderers by others here; and the same can be
> said for the heroes of the latter group. Tempers have flared, and
> a valued magistrate has lain down her offices.
>
> Nova Roma was founded with the intent of restoring the classical
> Roman Religion, and that has not changed. This is a fundamental
> part of our mission, and can never be abandoned. Yet many citizens
> are here due to a love of other aspects of Rome, its history,
> language and culture, and we pagans should welcome and respect
> them.
>
> It has been said here recently that monotheists, particularly
> Christians, are considered by some to be "second class citizens"
> or "unwelcome". I dispute this perception. All are welcome,
> and have been from the beginning. We have had Christian and
> Jew occupy every major office: Censor, Consul, Praetor,
> Propraetor, Senator, and most if not all of the junior magistracies
> as well.
>
> I attended a provincial event last month. Our host was a Catholic,
> who welcomed the Pagans from out of town, and stood by respectively
> as the invocation to Minerva was made. We were brought together,
> at great expense and from large distances away, by our mutual
> admiration for Roman culture, and we parted peacefully and with
> mutual liking.
>
> In spite of some fundamental differences in opinion, we can still
> respect each other, and strive together to restore the Roman
> Republic.
>
> I have, for some time, been planning to confer a special honor
> on one Senator; one who has, on numerous occasions, reminded
> us to act in a dignified and respectful manner. His hard work
> in the Sodalitates, the Senate, in every office of the Cursus
> Honorum is an inspiration to us all. He has the ability to
> cooperate with people very different from himself to achieve
> our common goals.
>
> Our most respected Senator and Citizen is Marcus Minucius Audens.
> He is a Christian.
>
> On November 1st, I will ask the Senate to grant Senator Audens
> the honorary title of "Princeps Senatus", or First Senator.
> If the Senate approves (and I strongly believe that they will),
> he will hold that title for life.
>
> I have been planning to ask the Senate to bestow this honor for
> several months; I announce it now, to show that there truly is
> mutual liking and respect between Pagan and Christian amongst the
> leadership of Nova Roma, and that by no means does religion limit
> what one may achieve here, or who one's friends are.
>
> Valete, M. Octavius Germanicus,
> Consul.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
> Curator Araneum et Senator

Your wise words and admirable attitude do both you and my friend
Marcus great honour, esteemed Consul, and my heartfelt respect and
admiration go out to you both!

I heartily congratulate Marcus Minucius Audens, who has certainly
earned the honour many times over, and who I am proud to count
amongst my personal friends.

I support both your intention of bestowing this honour, Consul, and
the intelligently inclusive, enlightened, and tolerant attitude you
evince. The ancient Romans would be proud of how you uphold their
most estimable values!

Vale bene,

Rufus Iulius Palaeologus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Animal sacrifice or BBQ? Both?
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 05:52:08 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@u...> wrote:
Maybe the Romans knew the secret of a great barbecue: garum?
>
> Good luck in your research, do let us know what you discover.
>
> Vale,
> Ti. Ambrosius Silvus
>
>
>

Salve,

Ti. Ambrosius Silvus

The only garum that we could possibly consider is made in Cartagena
from the entrails of Spanish Mackerel. Look for an increase in taxes
then as it is very expensive;)

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Pompeia's Resignation, sad but not a crisis
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:18:02 -0000

Salvete,

Many people have lamented the situation of recent days, culminating
with the resignation of one of our praetors. Citizens have said that
something in our system is lacking to allow this to happen. The
system as set up now with the praetors in charge CAN respond
adequately to problems in the public forums. The praetors were
adequately empowered to deal with this "crisis"--if there was a
crisis. What I saw were citizens engaged in a argument on a sensitive
topic; I found some of it offensive on BOTH sides of the argument but
I'm sorry, I don't expect the praetors to interfere to protect my
feelings or the feelings of others. I saw nothing in the discussion
to threaten the state. The crisis was that one of the praetors became
offended by the discussion herself and instead of trying to moderate
the discussion, RESIGNED. I do not consider this a crisis, we have
had people resign, we will again. If some of our more respected
citizens wish to withhold taxes because of that, so be it. It is
their right but I think they are wrong to do so. I agree people
should be more sensitive to the feelings of others but can this be
forced by the government? I do not believe so.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator Consularis

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Mobbing & 'Political correctness'
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:09:04 +0100

Roman BriefpapierSalvete,

Many people found the last day's discussions a bit too 'heated'. Honestly, I
just found that there were way too many emails to keep up with.

I think that before Nova Romans start resigning, unsubscribing, and banning
people from activities only because they don't like someone's viewpoints, or
resort to name calling such as 'creep', 'bad apple' etc. or stop paying
taxes (as if this has anything to do with it) they should start using their
delete button...

But having sat here for 2 hours reading these emails, I am rather shocked to
see that everyone (but 2 people, I believe) have thrown the entire blame on
Taurinus. I really feel that he has been made the scapegoat. The mudslinging
went in both directions....

Taurinus has taken the heat because he is 'the new kid on the block' whereas
long time citizens were certainly just as rude and sarcastic and yet no one
mentions their names. My opinion on the 'odd' fact that no one is mentioning
the other antagonists in this story is because the elections are coming up
and there are political alliances going on behind the scenes. It has now
become 'politically correct' in our Micronation to be totally biased against
Taurinus.


Valete,

Diana Moravia Aventina
Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Prostitution in Nova Roma
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:44:18 +0100

Salve Lithia,

> You're right it is off topic - so why didn't you just send it in an
> email instead of putting it on the board?

>> this off topic and should be post privately. Thank you for
>>understanding.

On Praetor has left already, the one remaining is having a huge task to do. By
putting this on the board concerning an obvious off topic post, I am helping
him and doing my duty as citizen.

Vale,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Christians, Pagans, and a special honor
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:07:56 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

> On November 1st, I will ask the Senate to grant Senator Audens
> the honorary title of "Princeps Senatus", or First Senator.
> If the Senate approves (and I strongly believe that they will),
> he will hold that title for life.
>
> I have been planning to ask the Senate to bestow this honor for
> several months; I announce it now, to show that there truly is
> mutual liking and respect between Pagan and Christian amongst the
> leadership of Nova Roma, and that by no means does religion limit
> what one may achieve here, or who one's friends are.

A most welcomed move in these troubled times and much deserved by Illustrious
Senator Audens. This is all about Concordia!!

Valete,


--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Pompeia's Resignation, sad but not a crisis
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:59:23 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Senatore Et Omnes,

The Situation is more than a citizen felt offended.
It's a citizen felt she was being unfairly attacked
and striped of a means of defending herself by a
poorly worded clause in our Constitution, the Blasphmy
Clause.

The Tax revolt isn't about an insensitive lout's
comments. It's a Civil Rights protest over a group of
people being unable to defend themselves from an
insensative lout's comments without risking criminal
prosecution.

--- deciusiunius <bcatfd@together.net> wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> Many people have lamented the situation of recent
> days, culminating
> with the resignation of one of our praetors.
> Citizens have said that
> something in our system is lacking to allow this to
> happen. The
> system as set up now with the praetors in charge CAN
> respond
> adequately to problems in the public forums. The
> praetors were
> adequately empowered to deal with this "crisis"--if
> there was a
> crisis. What I saw were citizens engaged in a
> argument on a sensitive
> topic; I found some of it offensive on BOTH sides of
> the argument but
> I'm sorry, I don't expect the praetors to interfere
> to protect my
> feelings or the feelings of others. I saw nothing in
> the discussion
> to threaten the state. The crisis was that one of
> the praetors became
> offended by the discussion herself and instead of
> trying to moderate
> the discussion, RESIGNED. I do not consider this a
> crisis, we have
> had people resign, we will again. If some of our
> more respected
> citizens wish to withhold taxes because of that, so
> be it. It is
> their right but I think they are wrong to do so. I
> agree people
> should be more sensitive to the feelings of others
> but can this be
> forced by the government? I do not believe so.
>
> Valete,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
> Senator Consularis
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] "Princeps Senatus" and Concordia
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:06:22 +0100

Salve Senior Consul et Salvete Quirites!

A very good move Consul! After the recent turmoil, this shows that
the Senate is united behind those who work _for_ the Res Publica! You
couldn't have picked a better person and Senator to recieve this
honor!

>Our most respected Senator and Citizen is Marcus Minucius Audens.
>He is a Christian.
>
>On November 1st, I will ask the Senate to grant Senator Audens
>the honorary title of "Princeps Senatus", or First Senator.
>If the Senate approves (and I strongly believe that they will),
>he will hold that title for life.
>
>I have been planning to ask the Senate to bestow this honor for
>several months; I announce it now, to show that there truly is
>mutual liking and respect between Pagan and Christian amongst the
>leadership of Nova Roma, and that by no means does religion limit
>what one may achieve here, or who one's friends are.
>
>Valete, M. Octavius Germanicus,
>Consul.

--
Valete

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas and Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] THE OPENING OF THE FINAL OF THE MAXIMI LUDI CIRCENSES!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:09:03 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

I HEREBY OPEN THE FINAL OF THE MAXIMI LUDI CIRCENSES!

This Final of the Ludi Circenses will start today the 31th of
October. This will be the last Ludi Circenses during my last Ludi as
a Curule Aedile. Enjoy! Please get to the Circus again and support
your own faction!!! May the best man win!

--
Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://thule.novaroma.org/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas and Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Princeps Senatus
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 02:43:59 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

An intresting Honor, but before we rush to recreate
the postion of Princeps Senatus a few questions.

Will it be historicly accurate? has anyone bothered
with historic research into the office? There is one
lesson we should have learned from the Gens reform
debates, that it is far easier to create an ahistoric
institution than it is to correct any problems that
may be caused by the institution.

Is it Legal? Last years Senior Consul opposed a
proposed Pleblacitum on the grounds that it would
create new honors for the Tribunes that weren't
mentioned in the Constitution. There is no more
mention of Princeps Senatus than there was of the
attendants for the Tribunes mentioned in the
Pleblacitum.

I Have no problems with the concept of the office, or
with the person nominated. What I don't like is the
prospect that we may be creating new problems in a
rush to create this office, nor do I care forthe fact
that bestowing this honor on a Christian does nothing
to address the unfair postion he and other non Roman
Pagans are in due our vauge Blasphmy Laws.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Pompeia's Resignation, sad but not a crisis
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:18:49 EST

In a message dated 10/31/2002 5:03:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:

> The Situation is more than a citizen felt offended.
> It's a citizen felt she was being unfairly attacked
> and striped of a means of defending herself by a
> poorly worded clause in our Constitution, the Blasphmy
> Clause.
>
> The Tax revolt isn't about an insensitive lout's
> comments. It's a Civil Rights protest over a group of
> people being unable to defend themselves from an
> insensative lout's comments without risking criminal
> prosecution.

G. Cassius Nerva was allowed to say some controversial things yet he was not
accused of blasphemy. It is my personal opinion that anyone who "leaves" an
organization on the grounds that the Praetor did is simply "looking for a
reason" to leave, and is reacting emotionally. It is also my opinion that
magistrates, especially our senior magistrates, need to be unemotional as
possible and lead with a cool head, and logic. I found the former Praetor's
"good-bye" message to be very emotional and reactionary, and for a senior
magistrate to act as she did over the actions a new citizen (of only a few
days) shows emotional instability -- in my opinion.

It is also my belief that the Constitution should remain unchanged.
Christians and Pagans have enjoyed each others company since the foundation
of our Republic, we can continue to work together. One of the goals of Nova
Roma is the resurrection and restoration of Roman Religion, we cannot
accomplish this goal if the it is not legislated for and protected.

Tolerance needs to be stressed from the top down. From the Consuls and
Censors to the Propraetors and Legates. No further legislation is necessary
on this subject -- in my opinion. You cannot legislate tolerance, you have
to practice it.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Princeps Senatus
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@aol.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:03:26 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> An intresting Honor, but before we rush to recreate
> the postion of Princeps Senatus a few questions.
>
> Will it be historicly accurate? has anyone bothered
> with historic research into the office? There is one
> lesson we should have learned from the Gens reform
> debates, that it is far easier to create an ahistoric
> institution than it is to correct any problems that
> may be caused by the institution.

Cassius:
Yes, the honor is quite historical. It in fact IS an honorific rather
than a grant of some sort of official powers.

>
> Is it Legal? Last years Senior Consul opposed a
> proposed Pleblacitum on the grounds that it would
> create new honors for the Tribunes that weren't
> mentioned in the Constitution. There is no more
> mention of Princeps Senatus than there was of the
> attendants for the Tribunes mentioned in the
> Pleblacitum.

Cassius:
Yes, it is legal. Germanicus actually left specific provision for the
office when Nova Roma was created... and he intended to fill it.
Early on he spent some time trying to gain support for his being
nominated for the office.

>
> I Have no problems with the concept of the office, or
> with the person nominated. What I don't like is the
> prospect that we may be creating new problems in a
> rush to create this office, nor do I care forthe fact
> that bestowing this honor on a Christian does nothing
> to address the unfair postion he and other non Roman
> Pagans are in due our vauge Blasphmy Laws.

Cassius:
I have raised the issue of this 'blasphemy clause' in the Collegium
Pontificum. We're discussing exactly what sort of changes would be
best.

That situation has nothing to do with proposing an honorific for the
most respected Senator in the Senate. The proposal is *not* a rush,
either... Octavius brought up the issue quietly to a few folks a
couple of months ago, to see if there was support for it. There IS
support - but the proposal got overshadowed by Gens discussion,
Consular vetoes, etc.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Disappointed
From:	Tribunus Darius <legioqc@yahoo.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 00:51:56 -0500 (EST)

Salve,

Yes, please do reconsider. It is not always like
this. I just recently joined the main list again just
to monitor this current siutation. However you can do
like I did, just join those lists that you find of any
interest. Such lists like the various Sodalitas or
Provinciae.

You will find more positive information and less mail
to sort anyhow. Concentrate on gatherings and other
fun stuff. I care to say this, because I am Legatus
of a Regio within a provincia without a governor since
yesterday. I am still very sadden.

Vale Bene

M Darius

--- aarmpa <regpoli@hotmail.com> wrote: > I
originally joined this group a few days ago but
> after reading some
> of the latest posts i regretted joining so I
> canceled my membership.
> I felt the posts got to be too personal and
> vindictive instead of
> being respective of one another views. If this is a
> regular occurance
> how does the group maintain members? I received an
> email from
> Centurion M. Bainchius Antonius to reconsider, so I
> have. I hope that
> I have made the correct decision.
>
> Respectively,
>
> aarmpa
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

=====
Marcus Darius Firmitus, Tribunus Militum Angusticlavus
Legio XII Fvlminatae Cohors II
Regio Nova Gallia
http://cf.geocities.com/legioqc http://www.novaroma.org

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Your attention please
From:	Tribunus Darius <legioqc@yahoo.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:21:13 -0500 (EST)

Velete civites,

I agree this forum is often like a chat room. Please
use proper NR means of communication available to all.
A similar situation occured last year at the same time
due to the post September 11th events. More monitring
may be required for now until this tool of
communication is utilized properly.

Valete Bene

M Darius

> >
> > Furthermore, this forum is not a chat room. I
> come home and my
> box is
> > full, with but 2 maybe 3 posts worth the time to
> read. NR has a
> chat room.
> > Please use it.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > Galerius Peregrinator.
> >


=====
Marcus Darius Firmitus, Tribunus Militum Angusticlavus
Legio XII Fvlminatae Cohors II
Regio Nova Gallia
http://cf.geocities.com/legioqc http://www.novaroma.org

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Your attention please
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:40:25 -0000

Salve M. Dari

With respect, this forum is the main communication with Nova Roma. It
is the door to all the other departments of NR. The forum chatline is
usually ad dead as a doornail as you know. If you are swamped with
too many emails like my friend Galerius Peregrinator why not change
your settings in yahoo to "don't send mail. I'll read the message
board later."

I belong to all the sodalistas and only recieve mail from the most
important ones that need my contribution but have little traffic.
Besides, without this very active list I am sure much interest in NR
would fade if we only had a few postings a day.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Tribunus Darius <legioqc@y...> wrote:
> Velete civites,
>
> I agree this forum is often like a chat room. Please
> use proper NR means of communication available to all.
> A similar situation occured last year at the same time
> due to the post September 11th events. More monitring
> may be required for now until this tool of
> communication is utilized properly.
>
> Valete Bene
>
> M Darius
>
> > >
> > > Furthermore, this forum is not a chat room. I
> > come home and my
> > box is
> > > full, with but 2 maybe 3 posts worth the time to
> > read. NR has a
> > chat room.
> > > Please use it.
> > >
> > > Valete
> > >
> > > Galerius Peregrinator.
> > >
>
>
> =====
> Marcus Darius Firmitus, Tribunus Militum Angusticlavus
> Legio XII Fvlminatae Cohors II
> Regio Nova Gallia
> http://cf.geocities.com/legioqc http://www.novaroma.org
>
>
______________________________________________________________________

> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Mobbing & 'Political correctness'
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:54:41 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@p...> wrote:
> Roman BriefpapierSalvete,
>
> Many people found the last day's discussions a bit too 'heated'.
Honestly, I
> just found that there were way too many emails to keep up with.
>
> I think that before Nova Romans start resigning, unsubscribing, and
banning
> people from activities only because they don't like someone's
viewpoints, or
> resort to name calling such as 'creep', 'bad apple' etc. or stop
paying
> taxes (as if this has anything to do with it) they should start
using their
> delete button...
>
> But having sat here for 2 hours reading these emails, I am rather
shocked to
> see that everyone (but 2 people, I believe) have thrown the entire
blame on
> Taurinus. I really feel that he has been made the scapegoat. The
mudslinging
> went in both directions....
>
> Taurinus has taken the heat because he is 'the new kid on the
block' whereas
> long time citizens were certainly just as rude and sarcastic and
yet no one
> mentions their names. My opinion on the 'odd' fact that no one is
mentioning
> the other antagonists in this story is because the elections are
coming up
> and there are political alliances going on behind the scenes. It
has now
> become 'politically correct' in our Micronation to be totally
biased against
> Taurinus.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Diana Moravia Aventina
> Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
> to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Mobbing & 'Political correctness'
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:54:10 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@p...> wrote:
> Roman BriefpapierSalvete,
>
>
> Taurinus has taken the heat because he is 'the new kid on the
block' whereas
> long time citizens were certainly just as rude and sarcastic and
yet no one
> mentions their names. My opinion on the 'odd' fact that no one is
mentioning
> the other antagonists in this story is because the elections are
coming up
> and there are political alliances going on behind the scenes. It
has now
> become 'politically correct' in our Micronation to be totally
biased against
> Taurinus.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Diana Moravia Aventina
> Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
> to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus


Salve,

Diana Moravia Aventina,

I agree with you completely, yet you are one of the few that actually
have had the courage to point that out. To be perfectly blunt and
base I will state that my take on this was simply a discussion that
everyone knows is never ending and will always be a thorn in the side
of humanity. I could use the old worn out diatribre of "look at the
millions that have died in the name of religion" but that is too
simply put for the august members of this group. I think that manmy
times new members are put off by the overwhelming inteelect that is
present here. My own Gens members are hesitant to participate here
for fear of being ripped apart by the "experts" if they are incorect
regarding anything. That sort of vulture mentality was present here
during the debate. That is a topic that should be addressed as well.
The very people that wear concordia, honos, and virtus on their togas
seemed to loose theirs very quickly once they realized that they were
defeated intellectually. More than one personage got their knickers
in knots over this and yet NR will live on and prosper. I was deeply
offended by the same imature name calling that you pointed out. Funny
why didn't the magistrates jump on that. There was a very noticable
silence when we ALL witnessed those transgressions.Yet Taurinus was
targeted as EVIL and was and probably will be treated as an
outlaw.This is simply wrong and I will not follow that lead. I hope
the all have actually learned something here and can see that we all
need to utilize moral directives instead of providing mere lip
service. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo and Galus Agorius Taurinus are both
respected in my gens for their tenacity, courage, and passion. Those
that resorted to name calling will still have to earn the respect
that they crave.

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Sheath your gladius -Tribune
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:14:56 -0000

Tribunus Darius,

Please sheath your gladius! I can assure you that the double post was
an accident as well as the grammatical errors and not an act of civil
disobedience ;).

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Princeps Senatus
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:23:04 +0000 (GMT)

L. Sicinius Drusus raised several questions concerning the title of Princeps Senatus, all of which were answered at least to my own satisfaction by Iunius Palladius.

I would just like to add to Palladius' summary the fact that the title of Princeps Senatus in the ancient republic was an honour bestowed by the Censors (I'll come back to this point) on a member of the Senate, usually the most senior member (though it is not clear whether seniority was determined by age, length of service or, as in this case, eminence). It was held for life, unless of course the Senator was expelled from the Senate by the Censors, though I am unaware of this ever occurring. The only actual effect it had beyond its honorific value was that in meetings of the Senate the Princeps Senatus would be called upon first by the presiding magistrate to deliver his opinion (sententia), whereafter Senators would be called in descending order of rank starting with consulars (ex-consuls). This is from memory, so if I am wrong I welcome correction.

To return briefly to the point that the award of the title was made by the censors: this does not cause a conflict with the Consul's intention to propose that the Senate vote on the matter. First, under the current constitution of Nova Roma the internal functions and procedures of the Senate are determined by that body, and this would surely fall under such a heading, since who speaks first is a matter of internal procedure. Second, it would not be incomatible with historical practice, as the Senate of the ancient republic could pass resolutions (senatus consulta) advising any magistrate to perform whatever action they thought appropriate, and a Consul had the power to ask the Senate to give its advice. So the procedure that could be followed in order for this grant to be in accord with both current constitutional law and historical practice would be this: The Consul asks the Senate to advise the Censors to appoint the nominee, in this case Minucius Audens, Princeps Senatus; the Senate votes on the resolution; if it passes, the Senate advises the Censors to do this, and the Censors may then at their discretion (which would usually follow the will of the Senate in such matters, I imagine) make the appointment.

Incidentally, on a side-note for those interested in constitutional practice, the decrees of the Senate (senatus consulta) in the ancient republic did not, unlike those under our constitution, have any force of law at all. However, there was a convention (and it should be remembered that in the ancient republic, as in the current constitution of the U.K. and to a lesser extent of many other liberal democracies, conventions were very important) that when the Senate passed a sentus consultum a magistrate with the authority to issue edicts would transcribe the resolution directly into a decree and issue it, thereby giving it legal force.

Thank you for bearing with me as I descend from discussion of current political issues to antiquarian ramblings. :)

Jamie




www.strategikon.org




---------------------------------
Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] chat room
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:21:44 +0000

Salve Lanii Pauline:

The question is not that there is too much mail. It is the volume,
indeed, of too much trivial stuff and repetition, as people keep repeting
themselves with triviality because it is going back and forth as in a chat
room, filling the box with it.

Galerius Peregrinator.




>From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Your attention please
>Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:40:25 -0000
>
>Salve M. Dari
>
>With respect, this forum is the main communication with Nova Roma. It
>is the door to all the other departments of NR. The forum chatline is
>usually ad dead as a doornail as you know. If you are swamped with
>too many emails like my friend Galerius Peregrinator why not change
>your settings in yahoo to "don't send mail. I'll read the message
>board later."
>
>I belong to all the sodalistas and only recieve mail from the most
>important ones that need my contribution but have little traffic.
>Besides, without this very active list I am sure much interest in NR
>would fade if we only had a few postings a day.
>
>Yours respectfully,
>
>Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Tribunus Darius <legioqc@y...> wrote:
> > Velete civites,
> >
> > I agree this forum is often like a chat room. Please
> > use proper NR means of communication available to all.
> > A similar situation occured last year at the same time
> > due to the post September 11th events. More monitring
> > may be required for now until this tool of
> > communication is utilized properly.
> >
> > Valete Bene
> >
> > M Darius
> >
> > > >
> > > > Furthermore, this forum is not a chat room. I
> > > come home and my
> > > box is
> > > > full, with but 2 maybe 3 posts worth the time to
> > > read. NR has a
> > > chat room.
> > > > Please use it.
> > > >
> > > > Valete
> > > >
> > > > Galerius Peregrinator.
> > > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Marcus Darius Firmitus, Tribunus Militum Angusticlavus
> > Legio XII Fvlminatae Cohors II
> > Regio Nova Gallia
> > http://cf.geocities.com/legioqc http://www.novaroma.org
> >
> >
>______________________________________________________________________
>
> > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>


_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: chat room
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:37:04 -0000

Good morning Galeri,

Good point as well Galerus. I think though that a lot of people get
repetitive sometimes when their postings are missed, overlooked or
misunderstood. If someone takes the time to write a posting for me I
do try and answer it as soon as I can to let them know I heard,
understood and appreciate their work to address my points or
questions. If they post on the thread "re" that eliminates going
through a lot of other unrelated emails.

I am not trying to chat here, just these thoughts are fresher in my
mind now than the will be tonight with a few beer in my belly. (grin)

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator"
<gaiusgalerius@h...> wrote:
> Salve Lanii Pauline:
>
> The question is not that there is too much mail. It is the
volume,
> indeed, of too much trivial stuff and repetition, as people keep
repeting
> themselves with triviality because it is going back and forth as in
a chat
> room, filling the box with it.
>
> Galerius Peregrinator.
>
>
>
>
.asp

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some reflections on the resignation of Cornelia Strabo
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:30:31 -0800 (PST)

Jamie Johnson writes:

[Responding to my earlier explanation of how I
read Pompeia Cornelia's resignation message]

> > I read her explanation as saying that she could
> > not in conscience uphold her oaths of office
> > any longer, because they bind her to the
> > protection of the Religio Romana. [...]

> If this is the case, it wasn't clear to me from her
> message.

Her message was difficult to understand, I agree.
I think we saw a draft which had much cut from it,
written by a woman who was tired, stressed, and far
from her best.

> And if it is the case, then I should still
> be inclined to say that such a decision could be
> considered rather selfish,

Perhaps it is. I'd be inclined to agree with you
that she acted in her own self-interest. I'm aware
of some personal stresses that she's been under
and my guess is that things having nothing directly
to do with NovaRoma influenced her.

> However, I don't consider that your interpretation
> is correct.

You may consider whatever you wish Mister Johnson.
I didn't offer it as Revealed Truth, but as a bit
of clarification based on years of association with
the woman. Furthermore, I offered my clarification
of her *stated* rationale for resigning, not for
all the other reasons she may have had as well.

> Of course, I speak from no personal
> acquaintance with the former Praetor,

Yes, that seemed fairly obvious.

Understand sir, that I am not attempting to justify
or support Pompeia's decision. It is not the choice
I would have made in similar circumstances, and had
she asked me for advice I'd have advised her to hold
on to her praetorian office until the end of December,
and to remain in the Senate. But she did not ask me,
and she has chosen her own course. I hold her
responsible for that course, and after she has had
some time to recover her composure I intend to tell
her what I think.


=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Inellectual Vultures
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:07:15 -0000

Salve to all that care to read this post.

I touched briefly upon this observation in a post where I seconded a
very valid post by the venerable Diana Moravia Aventia, who has
touched me with a genuine sense of caring for the participants of
this list. I am dismayed by the attitudes that constantly emerge here
in regards to the usage of this "channel" . I have read that we are
not using proper etiquette and now that there is too much "prattle
between responder , that this is not a chat room. To the appointed
guardians here , what is the proper usage? Is your take on this the
official view. I read the usage rules and I will apologize to the
populace if I have abused them or filled your box with unnecessary
chaff. Two days ago I read criticism that the NR priests were absent
from this site and why were we not present during a disagreement that
was blown way out of proportion by one up man ship. Debate is healthy
ans so is discussion following the debate. There have been very
strong words tossed about, disgraceful name calling by NR officials
that should be strongly repremanded by their callousness and
disregard for respect. Hopefully the voters will see to that dis
honorable behaviour. But I degress. I write to this to appeal to the
experts on all thing Roman to remember that many newcomers to this
venue are just learning about NR and Roman culture. Many of the
discussions are very heady and if you put yourself in a neophytes
shoes you will quickly realize this. I was a history major in school
but also I admit that I was a JOCK. I played ball in school and also
was a knight (swordjock) in the SCA. I joined NR to learn. I swore an
oath as Epulones to learn as much as I can and to convey that
knowledge to the republic.I do not haunt this site as many do and
only looked in as a break from my studies as Epulone. I was shocked
at the behaviour that some of our "outstanding" magistrates exhibited
and feel that there needs to be a whole lot more objectivity
displayed and that Honor and virtue classses should be taught to our
officals. I have a gens that will be increasing in numbers by 5 more
this week. They are all college educated and range in occupation from
Medical research to Steel Union president. Yet they will not
participate here because they feel that the instant that they say
something wrong they will be jumped and made to feel like idiots. I'm
sure ( and have received mail from newcomers here ) that they are not
alone. There are many participants here that feel that this is their
private forum and object if posts like mine interfere with their
private intellectual one-up manship. This is dangerous territorry as
the number of newcomers will be drastically reduced if this site does
not loose the private club mentality. I am very glad that I did post
here as I have "met" some extremely nice citizens thru private
mailings since this debate started. Perhaps there is a silver lining.
I will now make offerings to Virtus and Honos for the whole Empire.

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius Epulones

"rambler and dumb ex sword jock"

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Running For Office
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:54:05 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I have this question for anyone who is familiar with the NR election
rules. I realize a person has to be an NR citizen for 6 months before
holding a senoir office. Just prentend for a moment that I was some
sort of political genius new our government but learned all there was
to know about our government within 2 or 3 months of being in NR. I
became a citizen July 10. The elections are sometime in January which
is the 6 months. Would I have been allowed to put my name in as a
possible candidate and campaign anyway since I would not be in office
until after January the 6 month period. Ha, no ambitions at all, just
curiosity.

Regards Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Running For Office
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:02:02 -0800 (PST)

[posted with cc to original poster]

Quintus Lanius Paulinus asked:

> I became a citizen July 10. The elections are
> sometime in January

No, they're in early December, with innaguration on
the 1st of January. You will not have been a citizen
long enough to run for office.


=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Running For Office
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:15:20 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Lani,

> I have this question for anyone who is familiar with the NR election
> rules. I realize a person has to be an NR citizen for 6 months before
> holding a senoir office. Just prentend for a moment that I was some
> sort of political genius new our government but learned all there was
> to know about our government within 2 or 3 months of being in NR. I
> became a citizen July 10.

The elections will take place in November (a call for candidates will
appear here within days). New magistrates will take office January 1st,
and must satisfy age, experience, and citizenship length requirements
on January 1st. I am sorry, but you will not be able to take office
right away.

If any positions are unfilled, or elected magistrates resign, or new
positions are created, you could run for those, after January 10th.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Running For Office
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:19:38 -0000

Salvete Gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies. That clears up everything in my mind
about timing and various positions. This will be the first time I see
some good campaigns and look forward to studying how things work in
our government.

Vale bene,

Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On Cornelia's resignation
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:09:52 EST

In a message dated 10/30/02 5:44:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk writes:


> It seems to me there is a third and very important choice: if you do not
> support the riot, do what is in your power to prevent it.
>

Salvete.

Actually that is correct, but since we are in a virtual forum this makes it
hard to carry out. The few citizens who attempted to "restrain" the
disagreement, simply helped escalate it.
I honestly believe that the man is entitled to his opinion. When I attempted
to point out what the College was doing, I saw that his views were
inflexible, and I withdrew.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Mobbing & 'Political correctness'
From:	"IVLIA VOPISCA" <iulia_uopisca@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:11:01 -0000

Well said, Aventina and Virbius! I feel the same. These exchanges
produced a lot of heat and upset, and rather little light, sadly.
I received one benefit from it, the opportunity to begin a
correspondence with Taurinus, and it's one of the finest I've had
with any of my fellow citizens. It's quite unfair to demonize people
because one has hastily taken offense at something said in e-mail.

On another note I was truly glad to hear of the intent to bestow the
title of Princeps Senatus upon Audens, whom I think is beloved by all
for his fine and many gifts to our Nova Roma. May it be so!

Amazing, I've been induced to post three of four times on the main
list in as many days! Horrors, someone will have to demonize *me*
quickly lest this become a habit!

VALETE OMNES


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Frank & K.C." <shamrock@c...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@p...> wrote:
> > Roman BriefpapierSalvete,
> >
> >
> > Taurinus has taken the heat because he is 'the new kid on the
> block' whereas
> > long time citizens were certainly just as rude and sarcastic and
> yet no one
> > mentions their names. My opinion on the 'odd' fact that no one is
> mentioning
> > the other antagonists in this story is because the elections are
> coming up
> > and there are political alliances going on behind the scenes. It
> has now
> > become 'politically correct' in our Micronation to be totally
> biased against
> > Taurinus.
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Diana Moravia Aventina
> > Scriba Aedilis Concursus Secunda
> > to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>
>
> Salve,
>
> Diana Moravia Aventina,
>
> I agree with you completely, yet you are one of the few that
actually
> have had the courage to point that out. To be perfectly blunt and
> base I will state that my take on this was simply a discussion that
> everyone knows is never ending and will always be a thorn in the
side
> of humanity. I could use the old worn out diatribre of "look at the
> millions that have died in the name of religion" but that is too
> simply put for the august members of this group. I think that manmy
> times new members are put off by the overwhelming inteelect that is
> present here. My own Gens members are hesitant to participate here
> for fear of being ripped apart by the "experts" if they are
incorect
> regarding anything. That sort of vulture mentality was present here
> during the debate. That is a topic that should be addressed as
well.
> The very people that wear concordia, honos, and virtus on their
togas
> seemed to loose theirs very quickly once they realized that they
were
> defeated intellectually. More than one personage got their knickers
> in knots over this and yet NR will live on and prosper. I was
deeply
> offended by the same imature name calling that you pointed out.
Funny
> why didn't the magistrates jump on that. There was a very noticable
> silence when we ALL witnessed those transgressions.Yet Taurinus was
> targeted as EVIL and was and probably will be treated as an
> outlaw.This is simply wrong and I will not follow that lead. I hope
> the all have actually learned something here and can see that we
all
> need to utilize moral directives instead of providing mere lip
> service. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo and Galus Agorius Taurinus are
both
> respected in my gens for their tenacity, courage, and passion.
Those
> that resorted to name calling will still have to earn the respect
> that they crave.
>
> Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Princeps Senatus
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:32:20 EST

In a message dated 10/31/02 5:05:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cassius622@aol.com writes:


> That situation has nothing to do with proposing an honorific for the
> most respected Senator in the Senate. The proposal is *not* a rush,
> either... Octavius brought up the issue quietly to a few folks a
> couple of months ago, to see if there was support for it.

Actually, I suggested the title for a deserving senator the first month I was
Consul. Check the achieves. It was voted down.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mobbing & 'Political correctness'
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:36:21 EST

In a message dated 10/31/02 6:55:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shamrock@cros.net writes:


> There was a very noticable
> silence when we ALL witnessed those transgressions.Yet Taurinus was
> targeted as EVIL and was and probably will be treated as an
> outlaw.This is simply wrong and I will not follow that lead. I hope
> the all have actually learned something here and can see that we all
> need to utilize moral directives instead of providing mere lip
> service.

Salvete.

Where does the idea that this man is evil come from? I confess I never saw
it. Either did my fellow magistrates.

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Princeps Senatus
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:42:56 EST

In a message dated 10/31/02 7:25:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk writes:


> Incidentally, on a side-note for those interested in constitutional
> practice, the decrees of the Senate (senatus consulta) in the ancient
> republic did not, unlike those under our constitution, have any force of
> law at all. However, there was a convention (and it should be remembered
> that in the ancient republic, as in the current constitution of the U.K.
> and to a lesser extent of many other liberal democracies, conventions were
> very important) that when the Senate passed a sentus consultum a magistrate
> with the authority to issue edicts would transcribe the resolution directly
> into a decree and issue it, thereby giving it legal force.
>

Actually Jamie, we know this. Have you read all our constitution?
Vedius tried to follow the old Roman ways as close as possible. That was
what attracted
me to NR. He recruited me personally at a convention. As a Roman historian
I liked what he was doing. So here I am. You sound like a classics student.
Are you?

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] concerning the Princeps Senatus
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:23:00 EST

Senior Consul, the Senate Citizens of Rome
Salvete
The Princeps Senatus was not honorary title. It was given to the senior
Patrician ex censor.
His job was to speak first after the Consules. Hence the name. He usually
was the guidemaster of the Senate debates, since the Consules were guests of
the Senate.

I much as I love Marcus Municius he was never censor, in fact he declined the
honor to stand. I not even sure if he is a Patrician. I know he joined NR
after I. And I was elevated to Patrician status by Flavius Vedius for my
service to the republic.

At anyrate, to make him Princeps Senatus as a reward for service would be in
accurate
If anyone would be qualified for the role it would be M. Cassius Iuliunus our
current Pontifix Maximus.

If the Senior Consul wishes to do it this way, it is one more chip away at
our reconstruction status, and as a staunch reconstructionist, I would find
it hard to support.
This is no slight on the able Minucius Audens. Just I'm here to reconstruct
Rome as close as possible. Not modify it to my wishes.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] SCA sword Jocks
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:49:20 EST

In a message dated 10/31/02 8:06:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shamrock@cros.net writes:


>
>
> "rambler and dumb ex sword jock"
>
>

Salve Ambrosi Silvani Virbi Epulone

I too was a sword jock in the SCA. But I was left handed. So I guess I
wasn't dumb,
(Inside joke here, left handed fighters have an advantage in the SCA)
Were you belted? And you will learn a lot about Rome here in Nova Roma, both
good and bad.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A Nomination of Honor
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:16:26 -0500 (EST)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

I stand before you a humble man. I am struck by the singular Honor of
the Nomination that thee Honored Senior Consul has proposed. I am,
however, just as deeply honored by the wonderful and flattering
statements that the NR Citizens have said about me in response to the
announcement of that Nomination. Whatever the final outcome shall be, I
shall stand always singularly honored by your extremely kind words.

I thank you most humbly and most respectfully for your flattering
compliments and your marvelous supporting comments. I pledge to you
all, that I shall continue to serve the Nova Roma of the future, as I
may, and to always be open to the needs and questions of those who look
to me for representation in this Republic.

Respectfully and With My Utmost Appreciation;

Marcus Minucus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] concerning the Princeps Senatus
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:58:18 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Quinte Fabi,

> The Princeps Senatus was not honorary title. It was given to the senior
> Patrician ex censor.

I'll reply on the Senate list, as that is the proper place for debate.

The initial announcement of the intended honor was made here in order
to show Citizens who may have been disheartened by the recent conflict,
that citizens of any faith may rise to the highest levels. Normally,
I would never preannounce Senate business in this manner, but the crisis
called for an extraordinary demonstration.

Your points are valid, and I'll answer in the Senate.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Action & Responsibility
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:38:59 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>> “You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own actions. You
>> are not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions.“
>
debate: should we not add to this couplet the statement, 'You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own *inactions*'?
>
I think we could include inaction as a kind of action. This is one that surfaces occasionally on both sides of the 'right to die' debate: surely the inaction of not passing a pill to someone dying for lack of it counts legally as the action of murder? Ayn Rand would not agree. Then again, Ayn Rand was not an agreeable character!


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Blasphemy
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:45:25 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Sicinius Drusus“ <lsicinius@yahoo.com>

>> says, but then it says that those who say anything
>> about the Religio or its
>> practitioners, even those who are obviously very
>> fundamentalist, who promote
>> religious prejudice, are subject to being called
>> 'blasphemers'
>
>This refers to section VI a. of Nova Roma's
>constitution the key phrase being
>
>“Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be
>practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not
>engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes
>or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its
>practitioners.“
>
This says nothing of the sort. It says that activity intended to offend or insult is subject to stricture. That has nothing to do with 'anything about the Religio'. It is no more than laws against deliberate slander or insult applied to the Symbols of the common ethos. To make the equation made here is equivalent to pretending that prohibition against personal insult and attack prevents talk about a person's activities.
VIbius AMbrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Beauty!
From:	"mjk" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:23:52 -0700

Salvete omnes,

I was looking at this beautiful model of Ancient Rome made in the 1930's in Italy. It is huge and breath taking. I am sending this at the suggestion of Galerius Peragrinator who thought it was about time that we filled our heads with nice images for a while. Any great physicists in NR that can build a time machine? Please be patient since the blow up photos take a while to load. It is well worth it!

http://www2.siba.fi/~kkoskim//rooma/pages/MCIVILTA.HTM
>


Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Scriba Praefecti

AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

PAX ROMANA




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] duo denarii mei on the religion/bigotry debate
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:56:37 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “Christopher L. Wood“ <xwood@usa.net>

Remember Socrates was condemned to death for atheism by a pagan state
>because he taught people to think for themselves.
>
>As a wise fool once said, “can't we all just get along?“
>
He was condemned to death for inventing new gods (ie his personal daemon) in place of the recognised ones. In practice of course he was also condemned to death because his followers were implicated in treason against the Democracy and participation in the Quisling government established after the Spartan conquest.
vibius ambrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] SCA sword Jocks
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:46:12 -0800 (PST)

Quintus Fabius Maximus writes:

> I too was a sword jock in the SCA. But I was left
> handed. So I guess I wasn't dumb,

But you were sinister. No?

I'm a rapier fencer, though I'd need to reauthorize
now. I fence right handed, except for when I fence
left handed. I have the honor to claim some
training under Giovanni di Fiamma. Perhaps you've
heard of him?



=====
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

The homepage of Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his Cohors Aedilis
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] concerning the Princeps Senatus
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:51:59 +0100

qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> I not even sure if he is a Patrician. I know he joined NR
> after I.

Salve, Q. Fabi Maxime.

Just as an aside, even though this topic has been moved to the
senate...on the website, it is easy to see that Marcus Minucius Audens
joined Nova Roma and founded his patrician gens of Minucia the 1st of
July 1998, one month before you joined and founded gens Fabia.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Animal sacrifice or BBQ? Both?
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:07:50 +0000 (GMT)

------Original Message-----
>From : PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com

>I was raised in West Tennessee and spend a few late Fall holidays at my
>relatives' homes down in Mississippi. We'd usually butcher a large hog and
>sometimes a calf. It was not the most fun that I've ever had especially
>since I had to take a turn stirring the souse pot (if you don't know, you are

This is so like a short story I had to read as part of 20th century literature learning German at school. Called "Der Schlachtschlüssel" (I think: a good reason to wonder if Germans ever need dentures), it is about the traditional slaughter (Schlacht) of a pig in the 1920s, of which, as is also said of the Chinese "Only the squeal was wasted". As it was written before the Hitlerzeit it probably did not have deep political symbolism (about the only German thing that didn't then) and meant what it said.
Regarding Ancient sacrifice, I understand that one reason fish was so prized was that public sacrifice in a sense amounted to a kind of universal welfare but they did not butcher the meat into joints, only hacked it up. Therefore what you got could be anything edible or all skin and gristle. Thus fish was prized because you could select the bits you wanted and there isn't much to miss out on.
It is also in the book relating to ancient lenses that a freshly slaughtered liver is a perfect black mirror. As this is a commoner version of the scryer's crystal ball for inducing visions it is probable that haruspexy originated by gazing into the wet reflective surface of something's liver. Personally, I prefer it with mushrooms & onions but there we are.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Surgery request
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <piparskegg@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:15:38 -0800 (PST)

Avete omnes, Venator scripsit...

Thank you for your attention.

I have a request of my fellow Cives who use the Noa Roma list for
communication.

Please, please, please, could we have some better discipline on trimming the
messages to which one replies??? I've been receiving posts which reply to a
point raised in one message in a thread, yet contain a huge amount of
extraneous matter: the whole message to which one is replying (not just the
salient paragraph(s)), previous message(s), footers, headers, etceteras.

Also, please, if one is rightly adding salutatory agreement to, for instance,
an award being presented or a positive life change, one need not quote the
original message at all, but must needs only allude to said good thing.

This is very important, as Yahoo has imposed size limits on list archives. If
one goes to the Nova Roma list page and clicks to the messages archive, one
will see in the upper right hand corner a little tally of the archive memory
size. As of the writing of this message it read: Using 14.6 of 32 MB (45%)

A Heathen list I "own" and help moderate reads: Using 56.0 of 512 MB (10%)

I know not why this disparity, perhaps because I have purchased a url and
website through Yahoo.

I am given to understand that as an archive gets full, the oldest messages
disappear. Folks, in 5 months (as Karen once known as Priscilla shut down on
30 May) we have used up almost half the archive capacity.

Trimming posts is a tool we all have to extend the life of the message archive
here at Yahoo. I know that the Republic's archivists are copying the messages
to central storage at the national website, but, trimming here eventually helps
storage there.

Thank you once again for reading my words.

In amicus sub fidelis - Venator

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Beauty!
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:26:16 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : mjk <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
>
>I was looking at this beautiful model of Ancient Rome made in the 1930's in Italy. It is huge and breath taking. I am sending this at the

I have always considered that the man ultimately responsible for that, who once describe Nazism as "An atavistic beast awoken from sleep in the primeval Teutonic forest" was the world's greatest example of the road to Hell's pavings.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: SCA sword Jocks
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:28:50 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/31/02 8:06:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> shamrock@c... writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> > "rambler and dumb ex sword jock"
> >
> >
>
> Salve Ambrosi Silvani Virbi Epulone
>
> I too was a sword jock in the SCA. But I was left handed. So I
guess I
> wasn't dumb,
> (Inside joke here, left handed fighters have an advantage in the
SCA)
> Were you belted? And you will learn a lot about Rome here in Nova
Roma, both
> good and bad.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus





Salve,
Q. Fabius Maximus,

By the gods, I too am left handed but my speciality was sword and axe
and was able to beat the Eastern Tigers's best at the 4th. Pennsic.
I received the accolade in 75 and became the 18th. knight of the
Middle kigdom, and a Pelican in 95.There are two knights currently in
my gens . Another applied today ( I accepted him) and two more with
their ladies will be applying for citizenship this week. They have
all been looking at the NR website and are impressed at the quality
exhibited. You can see by my feeble attempts to make sense on this
list that I started fighting in the time of very minimal armour and
unpadded freon tanks as helms. Perhaps we can meet some day and cross
swords for fun and old times sake! BTW- wasn't it fun looking at your
victim's holding their right armpit? ;)

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius Epulones

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Beauty!
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:37:28 -0000

Salve,

Eh?, whatever. I couldn't care less if the old devil himself made the
model. Its still good work and the craftsmen could get a good job
anywhere, anytime with that talent.

Quintus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., me-in-@d... wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : mjk <mjk@d...>
> >
> >I was looking at this beautiful model of Ancient Rome made in the
1930's in Italy. It is huge and breath taking. I am sending this at
the
>
> I have always considered that the man ultimately responsible for
that, who once describe Nazism as "An atavistic beast awoken from
sleep in the primeval Teutonic forest" was the world's greatest
example of the road to Hell's pavings.
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
> --
> Personalised email by http://another.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: SCA sword Jocks
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:38:45 -0000

I have the honor to claim some
> training under Giovanni di Fiamma. Perhaps you've
> heard of him?
>
>


Salve,
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus

I have heard of him thru some of the Middle kingdom fencers. Have you
fought rapier at the Pennsic War? I fought for the Middle Kingdom
champions at the last war I was at in 95. I really enjoyed fencing
the Eastern fighters as they were all very good.


Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius Epulones

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Beauty!
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:45:08 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
>
>Eh?, whatever. I couldn't care less if the old devil himself made the
>model. Its still good work and the craftsmen could get a good job
>anywhere, anytime with that talent.
>
O sure, it's wonderful. I was just feeling sad that maybe Musso did start with dreams to make Italy more of a nation than a joke again and perhaps was less as evil as he's often painted than just plain weak.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] In response to Senator Maximus
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:52:10 -0500 (EST)

Honored Senator;

The Gens Minucia was in fact raised to Patrician Status upon my
application sometime after The Gens Fabi was so raised. You, your self,
offered your Gens to me during my applicaion period of some months
before I was finally accepted as a Citizen of NR. This very thoughtful
offer was as a Patrician Gens, which I respctfully declined, as I
remember, although honored by your very kind offer, for the simple
reason that I sought the honor of raising my Gens to Patrician status as
you have been able to do. In that, I was very fortunate to be
successful, as you well know. I have never kept such a secret, and a
simple review of the Gens Lists will indicate the status of the Gens
Minucia.

In regard to your comment that I have "declined the honor to stand for
the position of Censor", I must add a small item of information here. I
do not have a computer, now or then, and you well know that I do not.
That small piece of information which you left out of your objection, in
my humble view, makes a great deal of difference to the sound of your
objection. Even though you have offered me the honor of running for the
office of Censor with you, I do not have the means to do so, or I would
certainly have announced my intention to be a candidate for that office,
and you are well aware of that as well. Your suggestion at the time,
that I did not "need" a computer to take on the job of a Censor, I
thought might be just a tad unrealistic, no matter how many Scribae I
could have assigned to me. However, I did not insult you by objecting
to your view of the situation. That ommission may have induced you to
think that I agreed with you about that particular facet of the
question. I tell you now, that I do not so agree.

If your objection to my not having a computer is the source of your
objection for my failure to undertake a further service in Nova Roma,
rather than running for election as a Quaestor at your request that I
might serve as your Praetorial Asst., then I must plead guilty to that
charge. I followed that year with this one, running again for the
position of Quaestor, in order to act as the Asst. to the Praetor
Strabo, again at the Praetor's request. However, you are certainly
correct when you announce that these efforts are not the same as taking
on the job of the Censor to Nova Roma, without the means to carry out
the task with the current software, and detailed programs currently in
place.

I believe that I have in the past few years demonstrated my willingness
to serve in any position that needed to be filled, and on one occasion
one which had been abandoned. Since my view of the Censor's duties in
the current century, being done electronically as opposed to the
Censor's Offices in antquity with the large numbers of clerks, Scribae
and Libraii in one place having access to the same area files is a
somewhat different one than yours, I can understand the separation of
our views. I suspect that the impact of over 2000 years of advancing
civilzation, may yield some small consideration in changes about how we
do our business and what financial and material requirements are
required for those Magisterial tasks presently in Nova Roma. However,
that is not for you or for me to alone decide.

In closing, I am most flattered as I have indicated to those who have
honored me greatly on the Main List, and I am indebted to the Honored
Senior Consul who has made the Nomination of me for such a august honor.
As always, my friend, I am willing to abide by the wishes of my
colleagues in the Senate, in this or any other matter without any whoops
of unfair practice or declaration of a violation of our historical
attributes. My impression is that the members of the Senate have nearly
the same grasp of the history of Rome as you have, since you have been
so diligent as to point out the flaws of our thinking for such an
extended period of time!!

I have been honored as no other in NR to date, and an astounding and
important phenomena has taken place here among the Citizens of Nova
Roma. My mail box has been flooded with congratulations and best wishes
of those who have flattered me beyond all deserving. So whatever the
outcome of your objections, in the Senate, I am the clear winner of this
bestowal of credits upon my undeserving person, by those who have
honored me and those whom I am most pleasd to honor in return.

I thank you for your very kind attention to this matter and for your
diligence in bringing your objections directly to the Citizens of Nova
Roma for thier evaluation of your perceptive remarks. I believe that
they are certainly deserving of such a generous consideration.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucus Audens

P.S.----I include this above message to the Seate as well as to the Main
List, just in case there is anyone in this August Body who may have been
turned off by the discussions of the last week.

MAA

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Beauty!
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:51:44 -0000

Salve Vibi,
Thanks, agreed. I hope we don't get bitten for chatting (grin)

Quintus-


-- In Nova-Roma@y..., me-in-@d... wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@d...>
> >
> >Eh?, whatever. I couldn't care less if the old devil himself made
the
> >model. Its still good work and the craftsmen could get a good job
> >anywhere, anytime with that talent.
> >
> O sure, it's wonderful. I was just feeling sad that maybe Musso did
start with dreams to make Italy more of a nation than a joke again
and perhaps was less as evil as he's often painted than just plain
weak.
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
> --
> Personalised email by http://another.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Absentia
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 1 Nov 2002 00:28:54 +0100

Salvete friends!

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius said:

>I think that manmy >times new members are put off by the overwhelming
>inteelect that is present here. My own Gens members are hesitant to
>participate here for fear of being ripped apart by the "experts" if they
>are incorect regarding anything.

I can understand that they would be a bit intimidated, but they should just
post anyway. We all have to begin somewhere. And even if their responses
won't change the world, they will still make new friends! And they could
always send private emails to people & discuss off list, until they get the
confidence to post on the list.

Anyway, I am off to London for the next 4 days with my sweetie so if anyone
has emailed me today and didn't get a reply, I am not at all neglecting you,
I'm just not at home.

I'm happy to say that we'll be meeting up with Lucius Salix Cicero, the
Legate of Britannia Provincia to take up where we left off in Tongeren,
which was probably somewhere between a beer and a cigarette :-)

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina




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