Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] I hand over the relay-race baton of the Ludi ;-)
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 01:07:37 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

A little bit too late I hand over the relay-race baton of the Ludi to
my friends the Plebeian Aediles Illustrus Tiberius Apollonius
Cicatrix and Illustrus Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus. and wish
them the very best of Luck with the Ludi Plebeii!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas and Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:19:37 -0800 (PST)

--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
SNIP
>
> To my knowledge, and I have it on pretty solid word
> from our Pontifex
> Maximus, no one in the history of Nova Roma has ever
> been charged
> with blasphemy.

No one has been charged, however before I became a
citizen someone was on the verge of being charged with
Blasphemy, and opted to resign his citizenship rather
than face trial.

Q. Fabius Maximus was going to use this event to test
our legal system's ability to hold a trail last year,
but the Terrorist Attacks caused a postponment of the
mock Blasphemy trail.
>
> There should be a statute of limitations for not
> just blasphemy but
> all civil crimes. After all who wants to be hauled
> up before some
> future magistrate 20 years down the road for some
> "crime" long
> forgotten?

I Discussed the need for a statue of limitations with
the Junior Consul earlier today. I Prefer that it be
set at one year after a crime is comitted if the
idenity of the accused is known (as would be the case
in most Nova Roman crimes) or one year after the
identity of the person accused is discovered in any
cases where the perpatraitor is unknown.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 01:10:16 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> SNIP
> >
> > To my knowledge, and I have it on pretty solid word
> > from our Pontifex
> > Maximus, no one in the history of Nova Roma has ever
> > been charged
> > with blasphemy.
>
> No one has been charged, however before I became a
> citizen someone was on the verge of being charged with
> Blasphemy, and opted to resign his citizenship rather
> than face trial.
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus

At least according to the archives that is not correct, there is at
least one example for a blasphemy prosecution in Nova Roma:

Please check Senatus Consultum on the expulsion of citizen Lucius
Marconius Romanus in:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/99011001.html

On a different note: to place private firms under certain controls is
not, I repeat NOT a sign of the economic theory of fascism
(or "leftism" for that matter) but a simple matter of good
governance. I am sure that the Enron and Worldcom cases must have
brought this home to most reasonable people. Antitrust legislation,
short term capital flow controls (such as in Chile) etc., etc. all
exist for good reasons endorsed by economists who cannot be tagged
fascist or leftist (or whatever) just for that.

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:18:03 +0100 (CET)

Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

Ex Officio Tribunorum Plebis.

Through this port, and according to the prerogatives established in the
Constitution of Nova Roma, I officially present the following
legislative proposals to the Comitia:

To the Comitia Populi Tributa:
- Lex Salicia de Prorogatione et Cumulatione
- Lex Salicia de Suffragiis in Comitia Populi Tributa
- Lex Salicia Iudiciaria
- Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione

To the Comitia Plebis Tributa:
- Lex Salicia de Suffragiis in Comitia Plebis Tributa
- Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione

The full text of all these proposals shall be submitted in my following
messages to these same fora.

These proposals shall be voted following this schedule:

17 November (Sunday; Comitalis) - Begin voting
23 November (Saturday; Comitalis) - End voting
26 November (Tuesday; Comitalis) - Announce voting results.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:18:03 +0100 (CET)


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Lex Salicia de Prorogatione et Cumulatione
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:20:59 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA DE PROROGATIONE ET CVMVLATIONE

Preamble. Pursuant to fulfill the Preamble of the Constitution of Nova
Roma and, according to that paragraph, to bring our Res Publica as
close as possible and reasonable to the political system of Ancient
Rome, this lex seeks to reestablish the ancient prohibitions of
prorogatio, continuatio and cumulatio.

I. This lex covers the presentation of candidacies for the different
magistracies of the Res Publica. Just elected magistracies fall under
the scope of this lex; appointed officials do not have to follow what
is indicated below.

II. The election of new magistrates for the following year shall be
announced by the consules for the Comitia Centuriata and the Comitia
Populi Tributa, and by the Tribuni Plebis for the Comitia Plebis
Tributa, before the idus of November. Candidacies for these offices
will have to be made public as established by the law before the
kalendas of December.

III. In this first round of candidacy presentation, no current holder
of a magistracy shall present his or her candidacy for that very same
position (prorogatio). No individual shall present his or her candidacy
to more than one magistracy (cumulatio).

IV. If, after the kalendas of December, a certain magistracy has a
number of legal candidates that is lower than the number of offices to
be filled, the period of presentation of candidacies shall be extended
by an additional nundina for that magistracy only. During this extended
period, the provisions indicated in paragraph III of this lex shall be
considered temporarily withdrawn for candidacies to that magistracy.

V. The consules shall ensure the application of this lex.

---------------------------------------------

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBVTA
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:22:05 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBVTA

Preamble. Given that, for some of the magistracies of the Res Publica,
run-off elections have proved to be a frequent affair; and given that
those run-off elections mean a serious waste of time and effort both
for our magistrates and our citizenry, this law pursues to reduce the
frequency of those run-off elections by increasing the number of votes
cast by each citizen.

I. The Lex Labiena de Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum, paragraph
IV.C is modified to read as follows:
"C. Each Citizen shall have the opportunity to cast a number of votes
equal to one half of the number of vacancies within each magistracy,
rounding fractions up. Citizens shall not be allowed to cast more than
one vote for a single candidate. Citizens may cast a vote for a
candidate not listed on the ballot, or may waive their right to
cast a vote for a given magistracy. Once cast, no vote may be altered,
even with the correct voter identification code. Should multiple votes
be registered with the same voter identification code, only the first
one recorded shall be used when tallying the vote."

II. The Lex Labiena de Ratione Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum, paragraph
V.A.3 is modified to read as follows:

"3. Should a tie occur within a given tribe, the winner shall be
the candidate who has received the vote of more tribes in total; if
such shall not finally decide the issue, the winner shall be
the candidate who is a paterfamilias or materfamilias. If this second
disposition does not finally solve the issue, the winner shall be
decided by lot. The rogatores may decide how such decisions by lot
shall be made in a fair manner."

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN COMITIA POPULI TRIBVTA
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:22:57 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN COMITIA POPULI TRIBVTA

Preamble. Given that, for some of the magistracies of the Res Publica,
run-off elections have proved to be a frequent affair; and given that
those run-off elections mean a serious waste of time and effort both
for our magistrates and our citizenry, this law pursues to reduce the
frequency of those run-off elections by increasing the number of votes
cast by each citizen.

I. The Lex Vedia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi Tributorum, paragraph
IV.C is modified to read as follows:
"C. Each Citizen shall have the opportunity to cast a number of votes
equal to one half of the number of vacancies within each magistracy,
rounding fractions up. Citizens shall not be allowed to cast more than
one vote for a single candidate. Citizens may cast a vote for a
candidate not listed on the ballot, or may waive their right to
cast a vote for a given magistracy. Once cast, no vote may be altered,
even with the correct voter identification code. Should multiple votes
be registered with the same voter identification code, only the first
one recorded shall be used when tallying the vote."

II. The Lex Vedia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi Tributorum, paragraph
V.A.3 is modified to read as follows:

"3. Should a tie occur within a given tribe, the winner shall be
the candidate who has received the vote of more tribes in total; if
such shall not finally decide the issue, the winner shall be
the candidate who is a paterfamilias or materfamilias. If this second
disposition does not finally solve the issue, the winner shall be
decided by lot. The rogatores may decide how such decisions by lot
shall be made in a fair manner."

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:24:01 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE

Preamble.

In order to fulfill the article VI.7. of the Constitution of Nova
Roma, this lex seeks to establish the procedures by which the Tribuni
Plebis shall call the Comitia Plebis Tributa and the Comitia Populi
Tributa to order.

I. The Tribuni Plebis shall always be allowed to call the Comitia
Plebis Tributa to order when the issues at hand concern the internal
operation of the Comitia Plebis Tributa themselves, or to elect the
plebeian magistrates.

II. In any other occasion, a Tribunus Plebis that wishes to present
his proposals to the People shall first announce his intention on the
public fora established by the Laws of Nova Roma for magisterial
announcements and edicta. This announcement shall include a call for
the Censores to publicly disclose the following information:

a. Current total number of ciizens of Nova Roma.
b. Current number of members of the Ordo Patricius (Patrician Order).
c. Current ratio between the two figures above (nº of Patrician
citizens/total nº of citizens).

The censores shall have three days (72 hours) to present the required
information. Should the censores fail to do so, and should the
information not be easily available at the Nova Roma main web site (if
it is available, the Tribunus Plebis shall use that information as if
it had been provided by the Censores), the Tribunus Plebis shall
consider that the numbers of the last summoning of the Comitia are
still valid.

III. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing over
a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis shall
then proceed to call the Comitia Populi Tributa within fifteen (15)
days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in paragraph
II of this lex.

IV. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens *not* exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing
over a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis
shall then proceed to call the Comitia Plebis Tributa within fifteen
(15) days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in
paragraph II of this lex.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA IVDICIARIA
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 02:33:26 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA IVDICIARIA

PRAEFATIO.

The intent of this law is to establish a judicial system in Nova Roma,
setting the legal procedures that must be followed to present a case to
a court and to constitute that court. This judical system shall be
based on the imperium of the praetores, thus pursuing to fulfill
article IV.A.3.b. of the Constitution of Nova Roma.

These procedures are based on the Roman republican procedural model,
both because it probably is the model that best suits Nova Roma and
because it is the basis for all the procedural systems of modern
Western nations. Some concessions to Nova Roma's particular structure
have had to be made; but, in spirit, it follows the ancient Roman
procedure.

PARS PRIMA: DE PETITIO ACTIONIS.

I. Any citizen of Nova Roma shall be able to bring an action against
another citizen of Nova Roma. The plaintiff shall be adressed in this
law as "actor". The defendant shall be adressed as "reus".

II. The actor must announce the action he is intending to exert to one
of the praetores ("editio actionis"), and then the actor must ask the
praetor to start the procedure ("petitio actionis"). The praetor shall
decide, within 72 hours, if the petitio actionis shall be presented to
a court or if it shall be dismissed. A praetor can dismiss a petitio
actionis if and only if one of the following cases applies:

a. The praetor has no competence in the issue.

Example: a praetor can not mediate between two foreign parts, for his
competence is limited to the citizens of Nova Roma.

b. The parts are not sui iuris in Nova Roma.

Example: a minor can not play the part of an actor.

c. The claim is incongruent.

Example: "Ticius must be expelled from Nova Roma because he is bearded"
is an incongruent claim, for it is not supported by law, precedent or
common sense.

III. If the claim is dismissed by the praetores, the actor shall be
able to present his case again to the praetores in the future, waiting
for two new praetores to be elected by the Comitia if necessary.

IV. If the claim is approved by the praetores, it shall be presented to
a court of justice defined according to this law. The reus shall be
informed of the nature of the claim presented against him and of the
identity of the actor within 36 hours after the claim's approval.

PARS SECVNDA: DE FORMVLA.

V. Once a claim has been accepted by a praetor, that same praetor shall
prepare a formula to present to the iudices. The formula shall consist
of a logical statement that instructs the iudices on the decision they
must take. The formula shall be structured into four parts: institutio
iudicis, intentio, demonstratio and condemnatio. An explanation of each
part follows:

a. INSTITUTIO IVDICIS: this clause appoints a certain iudex to judge
the case (see below).

b. INTENTIO: this part expresses the pretension of the actor; i.e., it
shall express what the actor seeks by petitioning the praetor. There
are two kinds of intentio: intentio certa, when the facts that lead to
the actor's pretension are so obvious that they do not need to be
proved, and intentio incerta, when the actor must prove the facts that
justify his pretension.

Example:
Intentio Certa:
"According to the contract signed by Titius..."
Intentio Incerta: "If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000
sestertii, Gaius shall pay Ticius that same amount".

c. DEMONSTRATIO: it is the clause that further defines an intentio
incerta.

d. CONDEMNATIO: it is the clause that allows the iudices to condemnate
or absolve.

Example: a formula could be something like this:
"Let Sulpicius be the iudex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius
1,000 sestertii, you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000
sestertii to Gaius; else, you shall acquit Ticius."

The clauses would be:
Institutio Iudicis: "Let Sulpicius be the iudex."
Demonstratio: "If it is proved that ..."
Intentio: "... Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii ..."
Condemnatio: "... you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000
sestertii to Gaius; else, you shall acquit Ticius."

VI. To write down a formula, a praetor shall base himself in one of
these three sources:

a. Lex: the intentio and the condemnatio shall never be in disagreement
with the current laws of Nova Roma. They must follow these laws when
the situation is explicitly treated by them.

b. Iurisprudentia: in those cases were the laws do not present an
explicit treatment of a certain situation, a praetor shall create
iurisprudentia (jurisprudence) applicable to all similar situations.
Iurisprudentia is an expression of the Imperium of the praetor, and it
has the same legislative power of a praetorial edictum. Because of
this, laws approved by the Comitia shall always supercede
iurisprudentia, and a certain praetor can alter previous iurisprudentia
through an official edictum whenever common sense dictates that such a
course of action is necessary.

PARS TERTIA: DE IVDICIBVS.

VII. Once the formula is ready, iudices (judges) shall be appointed
from the album iudicium, a list of all the citizens that can legally
judge a case. The album iudicium shall include the names of all the
assidui citizens that have been citizens of Nova Roma for over a year.

VIII. The number of iudices that shall make up the tribunalis (court of
justice) for a certain case shall be decided by the praetor according
to the following guidelines:

a. The tribunalis shall be composed of ten (10) iudices whenever the
intentio includes accusations of lesa patria (seriously threatening the
well-being of the Republic), bribery, embezzlement of public funds,
prevarication, electoral fraud, attacks to dignitas, slander or libel,
or whenever the sententia might imply the loss of citizenship for one
of the parts.

b. In all other occasions, the tribunalis shall be composed of a single
iudex.

IX. The praetor shall aleatorily take a number of names equal to the
number of iudices from the album iudicium. The following considerations
apply:

a. If the praetor considers that some of the iudices thus appointed are
obviously related by ties of interest to one of the parts, then the
praetor shall, at his own discretion, dismiss those iudices and cast
lots to appoint different iudices from the album iudicium.

b. A citizen thus appointed to a court shall be able to ask for an
exemption from that judicial work if there are factors that do not
allow him to serve in that position. That exemption must be asked to
the praetor within 36 hours of the official announcement of that
appointment; the praetor shall grant that exemption to his own
discretion, or he shall deny it, thus forcing the appointed iudex to
serve or face an accusation of contempt.

c. Each part shall be able to dismiss a maximum of three (3) iudices,
forcing a new iudex to be aleatorily taken from the album iudicium with
each veto. Once both parts agree with a certain group of iudices, or
both have already spent their three vetoes, the remaining iudices shall
be the final iudices, unless one of the preceding paragraphs applies.

d. If both parts can agree on a certain citizen(s) of Nova Roma to
judge their case before a definitive group of legal iudices has been
appointed, then the praetor shall include that citizen (or those
citizens) among the iudices for the current case.

PARS QVARTA: DE IVDICIO

X. Once a tribunal has been appointed, the praetor shall inform the
iudices of the formula that they shall apply. The praetor shall decide
if the trial is going to be conducted under the public scrutiny or,
should the dignitas of innocents be at stake, declare a secret summary
and move the trial away from public scrutiny.

XI. Any of the parts can choose to appoint an advocatus (advocate or
barrister) to speak for them in front of the iudices, or they can
choose to speak by themselves. An advocatus shall not receive a fee for
his services.

XII. The actor shall present evidence to back his demands, and then the
reus shall present evidence to back his defense. Evidence shall consist
of anything that is relevant to the case, including written text,
visual evidence and the statements of witnesses or experts. In the case
of statements, each part shall have the right to ask questions to the
witnesses and experts presented by the other part.

XIII. The praetor shall be the final judge to determine what pieces of
evidence are relevant to the case.

XIV. Once both parts have presented their evidences, each part shall
have the opportunity to make one final allegation in front of the
iudices, with the actor speaking in the first place. Then the praetor
shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the iudices, according to
paragraph XV, reminding the iudices that, in case of doubt, they must
*not* condemn the reus.

PARS QVINTA: DE SENTENTIA

XV. Once the praetor has called for a sententia, the iudices shall have
72 hours to deliberate; within those 72 hours, the iudices shall
individually issue one of the following sentences:

A. ABSOLVO: if the tribunal's majority decision is "absolvo", the reus
shall be acquited.

B. CONDEMNO: if the tribunal's majority decision is "condemno", the
reus shall be condemned according to the formula previously established
by the praetor.

Should there be a draw in the tribunal's votes, the reus shall be
acquited.

XVI. Once all the iudices have issued their sententiae, the praetor
shall immediately inform the parts of the sententia, and shall enforce
any penalties through his imperium.

PARS SEXTA: DE POENA

XVII. In those cases where the laws of Nova Roma or the praetor's sense
deem it necessary, the formula shall include one or several of the
following penalties to be inflicted upon a convicted reus:

A. MVLTA PECVNIARIA: a fine payable to the treasury of Nova Roma. The
convicted reus shall be counted among the capita census until the fine
has been paid.

B. DECLARATIO PVBLICA: the convicted reus shall publicly recognize the
actor's intentio, in any public fora indicated in the formula. The
convicted reus shall suffer inhabilitatio (see below) until the
declaration has been made to the praetor's satisfaction.

C. INHABILITATIO: the convicted reus shall be desqualified to vote, to
hold a magistracy or to exert a certain right for a set period of time
or until a certain condition is met; any condition or time period must
be explicitly stated in the formula.

D. EXACTIO: the convicted reus shall loose his Novoroman citizenship
and all the rights and duties associated with it for a set (but not
necessarily limited) period of time, or until a certain condition is
met; any condition or time period must be explicitly stated in the
formula.

PARS SEPTIMA: DE PROVOCATIONE AD POPULUM

XVIII. In those cases where a sententia implies a loss of citizenship,
the reus shall have the right to publicly claim a confirmation vote
from the Comitia Centuriata. Once the reus claims this right, the
consules shall call the Comitia Centuriata within fifteen (15) days to
vote upon the reus's expulsion. Should the Comitia Centuriata confirm
the sententia, the sententia shall be applied. Should the Comitia
Centuriata vote against the sententia, the sententia shall be
nullified.

XIX. Once a reus has been absolved, either by a tribunalis or by the
Comitia Centuriata, he shall not be judged again under the same accusations.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 01:56:57 -0000

In Nova-Roma@y..., Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@y...> wrote:
> Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>

Salve Tribune!

Quite a lot to digestindeed .. and that during the election season!
Just for our information, are all these proposals just the product of
the Tribunes or have they been discussed more widely (e.g. regarding
the court procedures, have they been discussed with the Praetor)?

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEGES SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 18:14:43 -0800 (PST)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN COMITIA POPULI TRIBVTA
>
> Preamble. Given that, for some of the magistracies
> of the Res Publica,
> run-off elections have proved to be a frequent
> affair; and given that
> those run-off elections mean a serious waste of time
> and effort both
> for our magistrates and our citizenry, this law
> pursues to reduce the
> frequency of those run-off elections by increasing
> the number of votes
> cast by each citizen.

Won't increasing the number of votes cast by a citizen
have the effect of incouraging factionalism?

It could result in a large faction electing ALL the
canidates, depriving smaller factons or indiviuals any
representation in our government. This will encourage
the formation of factions determined to elect it's
slate of canidates.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 02:30:59 -0000

Gnaeus Salix Astur gave us a masterful tour-de-force,
including the

> LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE

Amid all your hard work, amici, you made an error. I'm sure
you can correct it and get a revised version of this out for
public review. Note that paragraphs III and IV are identical
except for the presence of the word *not*.

> III. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
> number of citizens exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing over
> a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis
shall
> then proceed to call the Comitia Populi Tributa within fifteen (15)
> days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in paragraph
> II of this lex.
>
> IV. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
> number of citizens *not* exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus
representing
> over a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus
Plebis
> shall then proceed to call the Comitia Plebis Tributa within fifteen
> (15) days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in
> paragraph II of this lex.

Aside from this one clerical error, the rest of your legislation
appears in order. I applaud your effort, and will, as much as
I can as a patrician anyway, support you in this.

-- Marinus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Blasphemy Again...
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:44:44 EST

Salvete,

As I mentioned in my previous post from October 30th, I have already brought
the issue of the 'blasphemy clause' up in the Collegium Pontificum. At
present we are discussing various issues for a possible vote. I expect that
it will take a few more days of discussion before the items for a vote can be
decided on, and then a vote will take place after that.

My *unofficial guess* at this time is that the Collegium will either advise
that this clause of the Constitution be re-worded slightly to prohibit
specific acts, or a definition of 'blasphemy' will be issued by decreta so
that there are guidelines on the difference between free speech and
actionable, obvious attack against the practice of the Religio.

For the record, the present 'blasphemy clause' was put in the Constitution by
Flavius Vedius Germanicus, quite without my agreement. His intent was to
insure that elected officials would not take any action toward prohibiting
the practice of the Religio Romana, or acting to remove it as the official
religion of NR. The word "Blasphemy" doesn't say that very accurately.
Frankly, every time I think of the word, I think of the 'stoning' scene in
Monty Python's "Life of Brian" where a man is stoned to death for saying
"That halibut was good enough for Jehovah!"

I said earlier that "no one has ever been brought up on charges of
blasphemy." Naturally, someone seems to have dug up a record where a Citizen
*was* charged with blasphemy! Hmmm!!!!

I only remember the case of that "Marconius" person vaguely. I *believe* that
I was against 'blasphemy' charges being placed against him. I also do not
believe that the Collegium Pontificum acted to place such charges against
him.

It seems to me that Marconius got booted for a combination of incredibly
vulgar and disruptive list behavior over a period of a couple of weeks, AND
sending threatening hate mail to someone off list. (I think it was the
long-departed Dexippus, a Pagan who happened to be gay. These were two things
Marconius was *very* much against.)

I even *think* it was because of Marconius the "Stalker Lex" was enacted, but
I could be way wrong. (And no, I'm not going to go spend half my evening
checking the old records to confirm this.)

Anyway, Marconius caused a lot of fuss by saying nasty things about the Gods,
but I believe it was his vulgar behavior toward *everyone* and his
threatening to hurt people in private email that got his Citizenship revoked.
I'm a little surprised that only "blasphemy" seems to be mentioned in the sum
up written by Germanicus. I wonder if that's because our list policies
weren't that firm at the time, and we didn't yet have a 'stalker law"?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebei are open to Patricians too
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 02:50:36 -0000

AVETE OMNES

In response to Q.Cassius Calvus' question and to everyone, I inform
you that the Ludi Plebei are open to the whole population of Nova
Roma, members of the Plebeian, Equestrian and Patrician Ordo.

Enjoy the Ludi Plebei!!!!

OPTIME VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
*****Candidate for Quaestor*****
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
----------------------
VISIT MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
LVDI PLEBEI
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/plebei.html

> A quick question, since this is the Ludi Plebeii, is this contest
> open to Patricians?
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The "Blasphemy Clause Poll"...
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:03:17 EST

Salvete,

I must comment on the recent 'blasphemy clause poll' that has been set up on
the list. While I am sure it was posted in the most positive motive toward
encouraging speech and thought on the subject, I personally have great
difficulty with the choices given.

There are only three choices presented. The first is to change the 'blasphemy
clause' to include all religions. I personally do not advocate such a change.
It would not remove the possibility of people being unjustly accused of
blasphemy, or define blasphemy ... it would merely make the scope of
potential problems infinite.

The second choice is to 'leave things as they are, because 'if the
monotheists don't like it, they can leave'. That is NOT what Nova Roma is
about. We've worked for four years to make Nova Roma as comfortable for
everyone as possible, and yet preserve Nova Roma as the *only* official
public bastion of the Religio Romana in the modern world. "Like it or leave'
is exactly the sort of polar choice we've been trying to avoid.

The third choice, "Nova Roma is for Pagans only" is even worse. Flavius
Vedius Germanicus and myself specifically set up Nova Roma for *everyone*,
even while working to make Nova Roma a 'save haven' for the Religio where the
worship of the ancient Roman Gods could be done unmolested.

Nova Roma is a micronation dedicated to the restoration of Roman Religion,
but also of Roman CULTURE and CIVILIZATION. That presents a scope large
enough for everyone to co-exist peacefully within. Yes, the Religio
flourishes here - but it is not demanded that anyone must practice the
Religio to be interested in Roman history, or Roman politics, or Roman
reenacting, costuming, etc.

Folks, I'm the Pater Patriae of Nova Roma, a Senator, and the Pontifex
Maximus. There is no one here more devoted to restoring the Religio and the
worship of the Gods than myself. Yet I have said before and say again now -
Nova Roma will be for 'Pagans Only' over my dead body. Somebody asked me the
other day how many Pagans are in the Senate. My answer: who knows? Nobody has
bothered to ask! Hell, I rather thought Pompeia was a pagan until she
resigned. The subject had never come up, nor does it with Citizens of ANY
stripe unless they announce their affiliations publicly.

Frankly, my apologies to the person who created this poll, but I'm all for
deleting the thing. It seems to me that none of the choices are particularly
productive, and the last two choices seem to deliberately lead toward
divisive ideas rejected long before the founding of NR.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: End of the Ludi Victoria - thank you, Quintiliane!
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 03:33:59 -0000

AVETE OMNES

I would like to officially thank Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his
Cohors Aedilis for the strong work they made for these Ludi.

They have been wonderful as usual!

Thank you!

OPTIME VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
*****Candidate for Quaestor*****
Legatvs Externis Rebvs Provinciae Italiae
Dominvs Praefectvs Sodalitatis Egressvs
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
--------------------------
VISIT MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
LVDI PLEBEI
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/plebei.html


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] DECLARATION OF CANDIDACY TO RUN FOR CURULE AEDILE 2756 A.U.C
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 03:54:27 -0000

I , Ambrosius Silvanus Virbius, come before you to request your
acceptance and trust in supporting me in my decision to run for
Curule Aedile in the upcoming election. When I entered the gates of
Nova Roma in 1998 , I was greeted with an air of dignity and
purpose that I had never experienced before in 25 years of historical
recreation or in the years I spent in academy studying the histories
of mankind. I entered a Rome of great intelligence and purpose
inhabited by citizens with many faceted dreams and iron
determinations. Many of those citizens have gone on to plan,
build ,and administer this New Rome and we the current citizens are
in great debt to them for thier accomplishments and sacrifices. I
owe a great debt to the citizens that can only be repaid by their
electing me to this position. I was originally appointed as the first
Curule Audile in 1998 but was unable to continue in office as I faced
a life threatening illness that result in an organ transplant. For
this reason I feel that I owe the republic the time that I was unable
to fulfil in the duties of that office. I am now alive and enjoying
the rays of the sun , the wind upon my face and the laughter of
mankind in a way that is special to one that has been where I have.
In my renewal I now have the strength to apply to the office that is
so critical to the building of New Rome. We were all fortunate that I
was replaced by noble hard working gentles that put remarkable
programs together for all the empire. They have provided
entertainment , spectacle, and pleasure to the masses. They have
persevered to bring meaning and dignity to the office.
We can not afford to pause however, and bathe in their great
success. We must continue to develop new forms of ritual, pagentry ,
and meaning to our great state. It is my opinon that the office of
Curule Audile needs to be co-ordinated more closely with the College
Ponticum and the Religio Romana in general to assure that the public
venues are in harmony with the Gods of Rome . The Great Festivals
were a joyous part of our ancestors lives and we must re-establish
those events that acknowledged thier importance. We must never forget
them.
The office should also be responsible for the development of
written materials that become the guidelines for future magistrates
to utilize in the pursuit of the planning of festivals and games. I
know the importance of this link as my work as priest of the
Septemvrii Epulones has driven me to understand the importance of the
planning and autocracy between the two branches of our government. We
need to build upon the present festivals ; while recognizing the
great contributions that the Legio's have provided , the great
exposure that the Roman Day's event has provided, the annual Lacus
Magni festival, the Ft. Malden event and the fine effort of the
various Gladiatorial schools . We need to reach out to other re-
inactors and invite them to participate in our Ludi's and feasts. To
do this we must develop a real presence to that world. We must
establish yearly festivals and events through out our borders with
intensified exposure. I have the needed experience in that process
having served as autocrat, marshal, legal representative and public
relations in a world wide recreation group. I was rewarded for this
service to the group with the highest service award and the highesst
award for combat and marshalling activities. I bring that willingly
to further build upon the work that is already in place. I agree
holeheartedly with Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and his quest for
capitol. In an effort to increase our limited cash flow I pledge to
close off my Gens , from this point on ,to only applicants that
subscribe to a full Nova Roma membership. I also pledge that within a
year the Gens Silvanius will be at 75% taxation level and within two
years we will be 100% of our tax responsiblity.This our Gens pledges
to be able to help our empire accuire greater forms of glory.
I am disabled and can contribute time, research and love of Nova
Roma to this effort. It is important that a Curule Aedile meet as
many citizens as possible, so I plan to attend at least three
gatherings in this coming year, should you elect me. Even more
importantly I will never turn a deaf ear to your suggestions. It is
against the duties of the office as well as my nature. I thank you
for this opportunity to serve and this oppourtunity to clear my debt
to our glorious republic.

To the glory of Nova Roma,

Ambrosius Silvanus Virbius


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 00:30:11 -0000

I think that this poll is fine. I don't need to hide behind the
anonymous clause; I voted for the second option.

In no way should the powers that be here ever allow for laws or
guidelines that allow them to declare that another person's words
are "blasphemous". Who can decide such a thing? The only "blasphemy"
I can think of that should be disallowed is blasphemy against the
State religion and Gods in public. That would strike at the heart of
all that Nova Roma is, and all that Old Rome was.

Yes- that is the only kind of "free speech" that should not be
allowed here. And that is direct slander against the State Gods,
because that was the Law in Old Rome, and it should be now. A person
should be allowed to slander them (the state Gods)in private all they
like, but not in the public forum. And yes, I think that declaring
that there is only "one God" in public is a form of slander against
the State Gods- because by declaring your monotheistic "truth" in
public, you are stating that your god is real, and the other gods
aren't real. And that's not right.

The "One God" of Monotheists is not one of the State Gods of Nova
Roma. Nova Roma is a reconstructionist Pagan society- the website
says so. I think that in theory, if someone has something nasty to
say about this hebrew "One God" here, that we could then see that
this person has little public dignity, if they knowingly mock
another's God.

But they should not be shushed or banned. The people who worship that
God can take it personally if they like, but they just need to
realize that they are not alone in the religion basket, and they can
insult back (if they think that it will help) or ignore that person.

Because it sounds like we are trying to make laws to force people to
be moral and respectful, and as much as christians and jews and
muslims have been dreaming that such a thing is possible for hundreds
of years, I'm afraid that it just can't be done. Opinions are
opinions, and everyone should be allowed to state them. If your
opinion is that the State Gods are fake, then WHY ARE YOU HERE?

> How do you reconcile these two outlooks?
> By Banning any mention of Jesus?

That's a thought- but it does inhibit free speech. I think that it
would be okay to mention "jesus" so long as he was not presented as
the One and Only God, or the Son of the One and Only God. If he was
just called the 'Son of our God" or the "Son of the Hebrew God", or
the "Son of our Father God", that would be great!

Taurinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"Luiz Felippe Guarnieri Saboya" <luizsaboya@terra.com.br>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 18:34:38 -0200

I Agree with all points of view.
My point of view is: if Nova Roma is a restoration of Roma religion, culture an virtues, as it says on our website, we should keep Nova Roma the way it is.

Vale,
Lucius Aulus Octavianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 23:19:04 -0500

"fascist or leftist (or whatever)" As a political scientist I can assure you that fascist are on the left.

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: rexmarciusnr
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 8:12 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> SNIP
> >
> > To my knowledge, and I have it on pretty solid word
> > from our Pontifex
> > Maximus, no one in the history of Nova Roma has ever
> > been charged
> > with blasphemy.
>
> No one has been charged, however before I became a
> citizen someone was on the verge of being charged with
> Blasphemy, and opted to resign his citizenship rather
> than face trial.
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus

At least according to the archives that is not correct, there is at
least one example for a blasphemy prosecution in Nova Roma:

Please check Senatus Consultum on the expulsion of citizen Lucius
Marconius Romanus in:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/99011001.html

On a different note: to place private firms under certain controls is
not, I repeat NOT a sign of the economic theory of fascism
(or "leftism" for that matter) but a simple matter of good
governance. I am sure that the Enron and Worldcom cases must have
brought this home to most reasonable people. Antitrust legislation,
short term capital flow controls (such as in Chile) etc., etc. all
exist for good reasons endorsed by economists who cannot be tagged
fascist or leftist (or whatever) just for that.

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: New Poll for Nova-Roma (To Taurinus)
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 23:28:16 EST

g_agorius_taurinus writes:

If your opinion is that the State Gods are fake, then WHY ARE YOU HERE?

Cassius respondit:

Possibly because they have been specifically told they are welcome here
regardless of their beliefs, so long as they are interested in "things Roman"
and are willing to peacefully co-exist with those of us who are dedicated to
the ancient Roman Gods.

Have you perhaps not read the Nova Roma website? Please, let me refer you to
such things as the FAQ: <A HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/faq.html">http://www.novaroma.org/faq.html</A>, (Particularly the
second question) the Constitution, <A HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution.html">
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution.html</A>, (Section VI), the Via
Romana section, <A HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/">http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/</A>, (2nd paragraph), and the
Religio Romana section ("Why the Religio Romana is Important" article) <A HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/whywecare.html">
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/whywecare.html</A>. And, of course, a
variety of posts regarding the 'debate' between yourself and Nerva over the
past few days.

Nova Roma is the *only* official public bastion of the Religio Romana in the
modern world. Because of this the Religio Romana is indeed a major part of
the foundation on which Nova Roma was built. Yet while the importance of the
Religio cannot be understated, those who are not inspired on a personal level
by the Religio Romana are welcome to participate in all other aspects of
public Roman life.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Junior Consul
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 20:44:17 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

The Junior Consul has asked me to inform Nova Roma
that he has resubscribed to this list.

Right now he can read the list, but is unable to post.
(to save the effort of making replies we realize that
some of you think that is a good thing)

So I Will relay messages from the Junior Consul until
the posting problem is solved.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A History Lesson
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 00:48:32 -0500 (EST)

Senators Palladius and Julianus;

Thank you Senator Paladius, for you recollections. You information
brings those memories back again with ever increasing clarity. I
remember both yours and Cassius' encouragement of me, as Cincinnatus had
done. My thanks again for your very kind efforts in that area as well.

I am somewhat surprised however, to find out that I am not "really" a
Patrician, as the Honored Consul Sulla has said. I wonder if that means
that I or any of my Gens could run for Tribune??

I suppose it must be some something like being a Chief Warrant Officer
in the Navy. Most people think that you are really an officer, you are
able to eat in the Officer's Mess, and take on Officer's duties, as well
as subscribe to an Officer's code. However, there are always a few who
do not think that you are quite a full-blown officer since that is not
the way that the I started out. I wish someone had notified me
earlier, that the Gens Minucia is not Patrician. Perhaps I could have
run for Tribune, and perhaps others who have inquired as to joinng the
Gens Minucia but who have finally declined because of the problem of not
being able to run for Tribune from a Patrician Gens. I will, of course,
need the Senior Consul Octavius' confirmation, however, of the Honored
Consul Sulla's statement in relation to the Gens Minucia.

Thank you again for the additional history lesson, and for your specific
help along the way.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:00:01 -0800 (PST)

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
SNIP
>
> On a different note: to place private firms under
> certain controls is
> not, I repeat NOT a sign of the economic theory of
> fascism
> (or "leftism" for that matter) but a simple matter
> of good
> governance. I am sure that the Enron and Worldcom
> cases must have
> brought this home to most reasonable people.
> Antitrust legislation,
> short term capital flow controls (such as in Chile)
> etc., etc. all
> exist for good reasons endorsed by economists who
> cannot be tagged
> fascist or leftist (or whatever) just for that.
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
>
Fine, call it statism then.
Which Label you apply makes little diferance in the
end result. One gang attempts to sieze control of the
state either through a coup or an election so they can
use it as a weapon against another gang.

Instead of serving as the protector of rights for all
citizens, the state becomes the agent for violating
the rights of the gang that is out of power this year.

The US was recently "treated" to the AOL/Netscape gang
wining and dining one administration to get antitrust
charges filed against the Microsoft gang, only to see
any meaningful sanctions after the conviction vanish
as the Microsoft gang got a kidgloves settlement from
the next administration.

That is the norm in a facist/leftist/statist/whatever
ecomomy as gangs ranging from companies to "citizen
action groups" vie to cut each others throats with the
assistamce of government regulators.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 06:05:38 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...> wrote:
> "fascist or leftist (or whatever)" As a political scientist I can
assure you that fascist are on the left.

:-)

Some may think that there are close parallels between modern-day
leftism and fascism of the Mussolini era but I can assure you that
your statement will be a surprise to most of today#s hardcore anti-
fascists (see e.g. www.anti-fascism.org; not that I myself am one of
them).

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 06:14:10 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> >
> Fine, call it statism then.
> Which Label you apply makes little diferance in the
> end result. One gang attempts to sieze control of the
> state either through a coup or an election so they can
> use it as a weapon against another gang.
>
> Instead of serving as the protector of rights for all
> citizens, the state becomes the agent for violating
> the rights of the gang that is out of power this year.

Salve Druse!

Let me put it in the words of Joe Stiglitz, last year's Nobel Príze
laureate:

"We need to recognize both the limits and strengths of markets, as
well as the strengths, and limits, of government interventions aimed
at correcting market failures."

Your views do not strike me as overly balanced in that respect.

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:32:13 -0800 (PST)

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > Fine, call it statism then.
> > Which Label you apply makes little diferance in
> the
> > end result. One gang attempts to sieze control of
> the
> > state either through a coup or an election so they
> can
> > use it as a weapon against another gang.
> >
> > Instead of serving as the protector of rights for
> all
> > citizens, the state becomes the agent for
> violating
> > the rights of the gang that is out of power this
> year.
>
> Salve Druse!
>
> Let me put it in the words of Joe Stiglitz, last
> year's Nobel Príze
> laureate:
>
> "We need to recognize both the limits and strengths
> of markets, as
> well as the strengths, and limits, of government
> interventions aimed
> at correcting market failures."
>
> Your views do not strike me as overly balanced in
> that respect.
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
>

Of Course the people who award the Nobel prizes would
never stoop to politics, like awarding a former
American President a Peace prize as a means of
protesting a Current American Presidents policies.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 2 Nov 2002 22:35:22 -0800 (PST)

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Stephen Gallagher"
> <spqr753@m...> wrote:
> > "fascist or leftist (or whatever)" As a political
> scientist I can
> assure you that fascist are on the left.
>
> :-)
>
> Some may think that there are close parallels
> between modern-day
> leftism and fascism of the Mussolini era but I can
> assure you that
> your statement will be a surprise to most of today#s
> hardcore anti-
> fascists (see e.g. www.anti-fascism.org; not that I
> myself am one of
> them).
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
>
Do they hate the "facists" as much as the Stalinist
Communists and the Trotskyite Communists hated each
other?

The "Heretic" is always hated more than the "Atheist".

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 01:54:13 -0500

Salve,

I have never liked the slogan "fascist of the left" for the simple reason is that the fascist are of the left. Mussolini was a Socialist before he founded his own splinter group. The German Nazi party was the National Socialist German Workers Party. A large number of top Nazi really believed in the SOCIALIST part of the party name and a great number of the lower ranks as well ( mainly the leadership of the party army the S.A.). Hitler was an opportunist that used any and everything and anybody to get and keep power in HIS hands. Stalin could not believe that Hitler had betrayed him, both being dictators and SOCIALISTS!
Vale,

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Ps. My name is Tim Gallagher but my brothers is on the e-mail account.

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 1:35 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Stephen Gallagher"
> <spqr753@m...> wrote:
> > "fascist or leftist (or whatever)" As a political
> scientist I can
> assure you that fascist are on the left.
>
> :-)
>
> Some may think that there are close parallels
> between modern-day
> leftism and fascism of the Mussolini era but I can
> assure you that
> your statement will be a surprise to most of today#s
> hardcore anti-
> fascists (see e.g. www.anti-fascism.org; not that I
> myself am one of
> them).
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
>
Do they hate the "facists" as much as the Stalinist
Communists and the Trotskyite Communists hated each
other?

The "Heretic" is always hated more than the "Atheist".

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Propraetoricium IV: Appointment of
From:	Larry Freeman <larrythebear@askmamafreeman.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 02:23:38 -0500

Salvete!!!
Congratulations Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus on your appointment as
Sacerdotis for Midiatlantica Provincia. I still warmly remember how you
helped me with the problem that I had getting my citizenship, and how you
came through for me. I wish many more appointments and honors will be
bestowed upon you. Again congratulations on your appointment.
Respectfully Yours
Laurenicus Flavius Magus.
ROMA VICTOR SEMPER EST.

At 01:52 AM 10/31/02 +0000, you wrote:
>I hope this is the correct Latin term.
>
>I wish to anounce the appointment of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus as
>sacerdotis for Mediatlantica. As a Pontiff in Nova Roma, I cannot
>think of anyone better for this post.
>
>He will not be taking up the office untio his term as censor is
>completed at the end of the year.
>Nevertheless, I wanted to make the announcement early.
>
>Signed October 30, 2002
>
>Gaius Cassius Nerva
>Propraetor Mediatlantica
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Blasphemy Again...
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 04:51:55 EST

In a message dated 11/2/02 6:45:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cassius622@aol.com writes:

Salvete
> It seems to me that Marconius got booted for a combination of incredibly
> vulgar and disruptive list behavior over a period of a couple of weeks,

His anti Pagan diatribe on Christmas Eve was the last straw.

>
> sending threatening hate mail to someone off list. (I think it was the
> long-departed Dexippus, a Pagan who happened to be gay. These were two
> things
> Marconius was *very* much against.)
>

Yes, he threatened him with death, dismemberment and enteral damnation on a
DAILY basis

> I even *think* it was because of Marconius the "Stalker Lex" was enacted,
> but
> I could be way wrong. (And no, I'm not going to go spend half my evening
> checking the old records to confirm this.)
>
>
Correct again. except 10 Roman females came to me early in my consulship
complaining about a certain Roman citizen that was sexually harassing them.
Since we couldn't prove it, and Dex had been stalked by Marconius (who had
snuck in again under a different name, I decided to promulgate the stalker
lex for the citizens' protection.

Q Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"danedwardsuk" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:40:07 -0000

Salvete Gnaeus Equitius et omnes,

>I will not vote in this poll because it does not include a
>statement I can support.

I will not vote in this poll full stop. It is divisive and unnecessary. Its only result will be to fuel an already acrimonius debate.

>I don't know who put this ill-considered poll together, but I'd
>advise them to withdraw it and create a better one.

My advice would be to withdraw it altogether. Far better to follow the lead of Lucius Sicinius et al and look for productive ways to heal the current rifts that have been created within Nova Roma.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] On to new and great things
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 11:30:56 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I would like to suggest that this debate on religion and blasphamey
be put to rest on the message board and discussed more privately. No
matter what your religion - The gods of Rome, Wicca and Yaweh aren't
going to go poof and put a windfall of money in NR's coffers, the
gods of Rome, Wicca and Yaweh aren't going to wave their arms and
make miraculously appear a piece of land for Nova Roma to build on,
the gods of Rome, Wicca and Yaweh will not conjur a new website to
advertise to the world of the resergence of Nova Roma and I doubt
that the gods of Rome will raise a new temple for NR in 1 day.

The gods of all world religions seem to want us to work together and
use our heads to accomplish many tasks. I don't know what religion
the designers of the Italian Website are. I hear little from them
about their religious beliefs or problems but their work is extremely
impressive. The same thing I can say for NR main page, much of the
research, the Academy of Thules etc. etc. What Pontificus Cassius
said about inclusion on his last posting is dead on in my opinion. I
would further add that in time we are going to have to leave the
cyber world and talk to business men, government, bankers and the lot.
I am sure my Religio Romano friends know that the Judeo - Christian -
Atheist sect is the biggest kid on the block in North America, South
America and Western Europe. I can assure you that trying to revive an
ancient smaller religion known to mostly for now to Roman admirers
and classic academics is going to be a tough enough sale as it is. I
respect the Religio and try to explain it to some people saying how
it is fundemental to NR and how there is much tolerance and
cooperation with one another. Because of the demographics, chances
are that it well may be the Christians, Jews, or atheists or the god
of money believers or benefactors who will be in the position to kick-
start our nation. If they look at this message board which is one of
the first windows into NR and see that we are hostile, bickering and
have a set of lips that just don't quit, continually arguing like the
old days, I can assure you we'll be a big joke or laughing stock and
get ^%#*&@@!! (censored) all.

I hope most of you understand my point. Lets move along from here,
prey to our own Gods for guidance in our endeavours.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:39:44 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Marce Marci Rex.

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> escribió:
> Salve Tribune!
>
> Quite a lot to digestindeed .. and that during the election season!
> Just for our information, are all these proposals just the product of
> the Tribunes or have they been discussed more widely (e.g. regarding
> the court procedures, have they been discussed with the Praetor)?
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex

I presented the text of the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria to praetor
Fortunatus some time ago. I also presented it to censor Diocletianus,
who pointed out that, in fact, an edictum pretty similar in spirit had
been issued by himself last year.

I just wanted to keep my promise to M. Constantinus Serapio and to the
citizens of Nova Roma to provide a legislative basis for a Novoroman
judicial system. Now it is up to you all, as citizens of Nova Roma, to
decide if my proposal is to be transformed into a law of Nova Roma.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] LEGES SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:47:16 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> escribió:
> Won't increasing the number of votes cast by a citizen
> have the effect of incouraging factionalism?
>
> It could result in a large faction electing ALL the
> canidates, depriving smaller factons or indiviuals any
> representation in our government. This will encourage
> the formation of factions determined to elect it's
> slate of canidates.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus

The same thought came to my mind. That is why I wrote:
" Each Citizen shall have the opportunity to cast a number of votes
equal to one half of the number of vacancies within each magistracy,
rounding fractions up."

In my humble opinion, limiting the number of votes cast by each citizen
to one half (round down) the number of vacancies will allow us to have
more than one opinion expressed through our magistracies, while, at the
same time, reducing the number of repeated elections. The key word here
is "half" :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:54:10 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Cn. Equiti Marine, optime amice.

--- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> escribió:
> Gnaeus Salix Astur gave us a masterful tour-de-force,
> including the
>
> > LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE
>
> Amid all your hard work, amici, you made an error. I'm sure
> you can correct it and get a revised version of this out for
> public review. Note that paragraphs III and IV are identical
> except for the presence of the word *not*.
>
> > III. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the
> total
> > number of citizens exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing
> over
> > a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis
> shall
> > then proceed to call the Comitia Populi Tributa within fifteen (15)
> > days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in paragraph
> > II of this lex.
> >
> > IV. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
> > number of citizens *not* exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus
> representing
> > over a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus
> Plebis
> > shall then proceed to call the Comitia Plebis Tributa within
> fifteen
> > (15) days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in
> > paragraph II of this lex.
>
> Aside from this one clerical error, the rest of your legislation
> appears in order. I applaud your effort, and will, as much as
> I can as a patrician anyway, support you in this.
>
> -- Marinus

In fact, there is no mistake there :-). Allow me to explain further:

* If patricians < 0.1*citizens -> Tribunes call the Comitia PLEBIS
Tributa.

* If patricians > 0.1*citizens -> Tribunes call the Comitia POPULI
Tributa.

I hope that everything is clearer now. If it isn't, let me know and I
will try to explain myself better (we engineers are not too good at
this, you know) ;-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 13:00:32 +0100

Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:
> --- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> escribió:
> > III. (the Patricians thus representing OVER
> > a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma)
> > IV. (the Patricians thus representing OVER
> > a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma)
>
> I hope that everything is clearer now. If it isn't, let me know and I
> will try to explain myself better (we engineers are not too good at
> this, you know) ;-).

Salve, Gnaeus Salix Astur.

I selected the specific sentence you need to change, and capitalised the
specific word that should be changed in section IV, along with it's
"mate" in III. Just a clerical error, as stated previously. :)

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:09:50 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Tite Octavi.

--- Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net> escribió:
> Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:
> > --- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> escribió:
> > > III. (the Patricians thus representing OVER
> > > a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma)
> > > IV. (the Patricians thus representing OVER
> > > a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma)
> >
> > I hope that everything is clearer now. If it isn't, let me know and
> I
> > will try to explain myself better (we engineers are not too good at
> > this, you know) ;-).
>
> Salve, Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>
> I selected the specific sentence you need to change, and capitalised
> the
> specific word that should be changed in section IV, along with it's
> "mate" in III. Just a clerical error, as stated previously. :)
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Oooops... It seems that you all were right and that I was wrong. I will
correct that immediately.

Thank you for pointing out that mistake, amici.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE (1st correction)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:14:21 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE

Preamble.

In order to fulfill the article VI.7. of the Constitution of Nova
Roma, this lex seeks to establish the procedures by which the Tribuni
Plebis shall call the Comitia Plebis Tributa and the Comitia Populi
Tributa to order.

I. The Tribuni Plebis shall always be allowed to call the Comitia
Plebis Tributa to order when the issues at hand concern the internal
operation of the Comitia Plebis Tributa themselves, or to elect the
plebeian magistrates.

II. In any other occasion, a Tribunus Plebis that wishes to present
his proposals to the People shall first announce his intention on the
public fora established by the Laws of Nova Roma for magisterial
announcements and edicta. This announcement shall include a call for
the Censores to publicly disclose the following information:

a. Current total number of ciizens of Nova Roma.
b. Current number of members of the Ordo Patricius (Patrician Order).
c. Current ratio between the two figures above (nº of Patrician
citizens/total nº of citizens).

The censores shall have three days (72 hours) to present the required
information. Should the censores fail to do so, and should the
information not be easily available at the Nova Roma main web site (if
it is available, the Tribunus Plebis shall use that information as if
it had been provided by the Censores), the Tribunus Plebis shall
consider that the numbers of the last summoning of the Comitia are
still valid.

III. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing over
a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis shall
then proceed to call the Comitia Populi Tributa within fifteen (15)
days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in paragraph
II of this lex.

IV. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens *not* exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing
under a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis
shall then proceed to call the Comitia Plebis Tributa within fifteen
(15) days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in
paragraph II of this lex.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE (1st correction)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:14:34 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE

Preamble.

In order to fulfill the article VI.7. of the Constitution of Nova
Roma, this lex seeks to establish the procedures by which the Tribuni
Plebis shall call the Comitia Plebis Tributa and the Comitia Populi
Tributa to order.

I. The Tribuni Plebis shall always be allowed to call the Comitia
Plebis Tributa to order when the issues at hand concern the internal
operation of the Comitia Plebis Tributa themselves, or to elect the
plebeian magistrates.

II. In any other occasion, a Tribunus Plebis that wishes to present
his proposals to the People shall first announce his intention on the
public fora established by the Laws of Nova Roma for magisterial
announcements and edicta. This announcement shall include a call for
the Censores to publicly disclose the following information:

a. Current total number of ciizens of Nova Roma.
b. Current number of members of the Ordo Patricius (Patrician Order).
c. Current ratio between the two figures above (nº of Patrician
citizens/total nº of citizens).

The censores shall have three days (72 hours) to present the required
information. Should the censores fail to do so, and should the
information not be easily available at the Nova Roma main web site (if
it is available, the Tribunus Plebis shall use that information as if
it had been provided by the Censores), the Tribunus Plebis shall
consider that the numbers of the last summoning of the Comitia are
still valid.

III. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing over
a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis shall
then proceed to call the Comitia Populi Tributa within fifteen (15)
days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in paragraph
II of this lex.

IV. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens *not* exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing
under a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis
shall then proceed to call the Comitia Plebis Tributa within fifteen
(15) days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in
paragraph II of this lex.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE (1st correction)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:14:56 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA DE TRIBVNICIA COMITIORVM CONVOCATIONE

Preamble.

In order to fulfill the article VI.7. of the Constitution of Nova
Roma, this lex seeks to establish the procedures by which the Tribuni
Plebis shall call the Comitia Plebis Tributa and the Comitia Populi
Tributa to order.

I. The Tribuni Plebis shall always be allowed to call the Comitia
Plebis Tributa to order when the issues at hand concern the internal
operation of the Comitia Plebis Tributa themselves, or to elect the
plebeian magistrates.

II. In any other occasion, a Tribunus Plebis that wishes to present
his proposals to the People shall first announce his intention on the
public fora established by the Laws of Nova Roma for magisterial
announcements and edicta. This announcement shall include a call for
the Censores to publicly disclose the following information:

a. Current total number of ciizens of Nova Roma.
b. Current number of members of the Ordo Patricius (Patrician Order).
c. Current ratio between the two figures above (nº of Patrician
citizens/total nº of citizens).

The censores shall have three days (72 hours) to present the required
information. Should the censores fail to do so, and should the
information not be easily available at the Nova Roma main web site (if
it is available, the Tribunus Plebis shall use that information as if
it had been provided by the Censores), the Tribunus Plebis shall
consider that the numbers of the last summoning of the Comitia are
still valid.

III. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing over
a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis shall
then proceed to call the Comitia Populi Tributa within fifteen (15)
days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in paragraph
II of this lex.

IV. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
number of citizens *not* exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing
under a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis
shall then proceed to call the Comitia Plebis Tributa within fifteen
(15) days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in
paragraph II of this lex.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 12:26:04 -0000

AVE OPTIME ASTVR

> I just wanted to keep my promise to M. Constantinus Serapio and to
the
> citizens of Nova Roma to provide a legislative basis for a Novoroman
> judicial system. Now it is up to you all, as citizens of Nova Roma,
to
> decide if my proposal is to be transformed into a law of Nova Roma.

I was sure you would have kept this promise, my friend! ;-)
You made an impressive job. I already read the proposals and will
further analyze them, as it is an area I am much interested in.

Thank you!

OPTIME VALE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Legatvs Externis Rebvs Provinciae Italiae
Dominvs Praefectvs Sodalitatis Egressvs
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
Scriba Translationvm Academiae Thvles
----------------------------
VISIT MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
LVDI PLEBEI
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/plebei.html
AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
-----------------------------
CAESO FABIVS QVINTILIANVS FOR CONSVL!!!


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Scipio and Serapio running for Quaestorship
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 12:47:10 -0000

AVETE OMNES

> I am very supportive to Illustrious Manius Constantinius Serapio in
his bid for
> Quaestorship, as this noble man has proven so much to Nova Roma.

And I am much supportive to you, my dear friend!

Citizens, of Nova Roma, I would like you to know that Scipio and
myself are not rivals, as it really wouldn't be a good thing for Nova
Roma! ;-)
Scipio has been a hard worker since he first joined our Republic.
We must think that the Quaestors have not to be "separated"
magistrates. They must work togheter to reach good and strong results.

Scipio and myself already worked together (e.g. Sodalitas Egressus)
and even met last summer during the European meeting organized by
illustris Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.

I remind you Scipio's website:
http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/

and Serapio's website:
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html

Good luck, my friend! You/we will do an excellent job if you/we will
be elected! ;-)

OPTIME VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Legatvs Externis Rebvs Provinciae Italiae
Dominvs Praefectvs Sodalitatis Egressvs
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
Scribas Translationvm Primvs Academiae Thvles
--------------------------
MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
LVDI PLEBEI
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/plebei.html
PROVINCIA ITALIA
http://italia.novaroma.org


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma and off topic discussions
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:47:50 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

I fully support Honorable Gnaeus Equitius Marinus and Illustrus
Decimus Iunius Silanus. The present discussion following the poll and
the emerging discussion is destructive and create unneeded turmoil.
Please withdraw the poll! There is a very interesting and
constructive discussion going on at the Nova Roma Law list about how
to handle the relation between religions and Nova Roma. I like that
kind of discussions much more as it seem to be heading somewhere were
it will be good for Nova Roma.

I also feel the need for some consideration of the direction that
other discussions are going. The discussion on Fascism and modern
ideologies seem to be very much of topic to me.

I am in no way in the position to moderate and I would never support
some kind of censure. But, didn't we come here to discuss Roma
Antiqua and Nova Roma? We will be forced to discuss the place of Nova
Roma in the macronational world, but let's do that in a way that
leads to new goals for Nova Roma.

>Salvete Gnaeus Equitius et omnes,
>
>>I will not vote in this poll because it does not include a
>>statement I can support.
>
>I will not vote in this poll full stop. It is divisive and
>unnecessary. Its only result will be to fuel an already acrimonius
>debate.
>
>>I don't know who put this ill-considered poll together, but I'd
>>advise them to withdraw it and create a better one.
>
>My advice would be to withdraw it altogether. Far better to follow
>the lead of Lucius Sicinius et al and look for productive ways to
>heal the current rifts that have been created within Nova Roma.
>
>Valete
>
>Decimus Iunius Silanus.

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma and off topic discussions
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:23:04 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

I support this post. This kind of polls and discussion are destructive and
against the will and the need of the citizens of Nova ROma. We want Concordia
and peace!!

> Salvete Quirites!
>
> I fully support Honorable Gnaeus Equitius Marinus and Illustrus
> Decimus Iunius Silanus. The present discussion following the poll and
> the emerging discussion is destructive and create unneeded turmoil.
> Please withdraw the poll! There is a very interesting and
> constructive discussion going on at the Nova Roma Law list about how
> to handle the relation between religions and Nova Roma. I like that
> kind of discussions much more as it seem to be heading somewhere were
> it will be good for Nova Roma.

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: New Poll for Nova-Roma (To Taurinus)
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 05:51:27 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., cassius622@a... wrote:

> Nova Roma is the *only* official public bastion of the Religio
Romana in the
> modern world. Because of this the Religio Romana is indeed a major
part of
> the foundation on which Nova Roma was built.

Quite Agreed. I think that it needs to be more than just "foundation"-
I think it (the religio) should extend further into every aspect of
life for all pagans at Nova Roma, and in all events and philosophical
discussions.

Yet while the importance of the
> Religio cannot be understated, those who are not inspired on a
personal level
> by the Religio Romana are welcome to participate in all other
aspects of
> public Roman life.

And again, I agree- but if they aren't inspired on a personal level
by the Religio Romana, then they certainly can take part in other
aspects of Nova Roma- but they still shouldn't have the right to
publically defame the Religio.

I realize that this society is *just* a pagan reconstructionist
religious society. But it IS a pagan reconstructionist religion
society. We can't forget that. We also can't forget that religio was
quite central to Old Rome. Historical persons who fought their
hardest to destroy the religio and persecute it's adherents have been
held up as "heroes" here and as "models of Roman virtue"- I am
speaking of Justinian and Theodosius; people here called them such.

Pontifex Maximus, I hear what you are saying- that the only
requirement for being here is that a person love "things Roman"- yes-
but by joining here, a person knows that they are joining a pagan
reconstructionist society, as well- one that happens to open it arms
to anyone who likes "things Roman". In other words, it is pure
hospitality that leads this pagan reconstructionist organization to
allow any and all people of any creed or belief here- and defaming
the Religio of this place, the religio of this state, which would be
akin to insulting a kindly host, should not be allowed. Anything else
should be free speech and fair game.

G.A. Taurinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA IVDICIARIA
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 16:10:44 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites, et salve, Astur!

I'd like to thank honoured Tribunus Plebis Astur for
his impressive work! During my studies at university I
heard several lectures on Roman law and as far as I
can judge, this proposed lex is indeed very accurate
in recreating the ancient's system. Once again, thank
you!

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
------------------------------
paterfamilias gentis Hirtiarum
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
------------------------------
Yahoo!/AIM/MSN: hirtius75ch
icq: 155762490

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Religio Romana - (2nd reply to Taurinus)
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:46:00 EST

G. A. Taurinus writes:

Quite Agreed. I think that it needs to be more than just "foundation"-
I think it (the religio) should extend further into every aspect of
life for all pagans at Nova Roma, and in all events and philosophical
discussions.

Cassius:
Here we come to a 'grey area' that is a little difficult to express in email.
Yes, the Religio should be *present* in all aspects of Nova Roma, for it was
present in all areas of Roma antiqua. Yet the Religio does not have to be at
a constant 'in your face' pitch, (and so far it has not been!) where it
becomes impossible to discuss anything without religion too.

The last thing I've hoped to help build is some sort of religious
fundamentalist community where there is no discussion but religious
discussion. (For instance where one cannot discuss merely history, but must
discuss 'religious history' or history 'as seen through religion', or just
politics, but only 'religious politics', etc.)

>Cassius wrote:
>Yet while the importance of the
> Religio cannot be understated, those who are not inspired on a
personal level by the Religio Romana are welcome to participate in all other

aspects of public Roman life.

Taurinus replied:
And again, I agree- but if they aren't inspired on a personal level
by the Religio Romana, then they certainly can take part in other
aspects of Nova Roma- but they still shouldn't have the right to
publically defame the Religio.

Cassius:
>From your words I'm starting to agree more and more that 'defaming the
Religio' (blasphemy) *should* be better defined. It seems to me that simply
not believing in the Religio would not be 'public defamation'. Nor would
debating the merits of various paths, etc. What would constitute 'defamation'
to me personally? Advocating the removal of the Religio on the grounds that
it is somehow 'wrong', arguing that the Religio should not be practiced,
deliberately attempting to steer people away from the Religio, deliberately
attempting to define the Gods as evil, etc...

I don't know about anyone else - but I tend to feel that I'm a reasonable
adult (well, at least sometimes!) and I don't mind others not following my
beliefs/ideas, or even debating them. It is often strengthens one's faith and
knowledge of one's own religion to be able to bear such things in a pleasant
and forthright manner.

Taurinus:
I realize that this society is *just* a pagan reconstructionist
religious society. But it IS a pagan reconstructionist religion
society. We can't forget that. We also can't forget that religio was
quite central to Old Rome. Historical persons who fought their
hardest to destroy the religio and persecute it's adherents have been
held up as "heroes" here and as "models of Roman virtue"- I am
speaking of Justinian and Theodosius; people here called them such.

Cassius:
Oddly enough, I just read a book about Justinian. While I very, very much do
not agree with his religious policies, I have to admire his attempts to
re-vitalize the West and restore the empire of Augustus. This was perhaps the
most ambitious plan ever undertaken by *any* Roman Emperor. The fact that he
was able to succeed for a time was truly astounding! Certainly there was some
great Romanitas to the man, in spite of the fact that he unquestioningly
continued the Christian policies of his immediate forebears.

There is 'good' and 'bad' for each of us in almost *every* aspect of history.
I admire the Emperor Julian greatly, and have founded the Julian Society
(www.juliansociety.org) in his honor - yet every time I consider his plans to
subdue Persia before properly settling his own power base, I have to shake my
head.

Taurinus:
Pontifex Maximus, I hear what you are saying- that the only
requirement for being here is that a person love "things Roman"- yes-
but by joining here, a person knows that they are joining a pagan
reconstructionist society, as well- one that happens to open it arms
to anyone who likes "things Roman". In other words, it is pure
hospitality that leads this pagan reconstructionist organization to
allow any and all people of any creed or belief here- and defaming
the Religio of this place, the religio of this state, which would be
akin to insulting a kindly host, should not be allowed. Anything else
should be free speech and fair game.

Cassius:
I certainly agree that *no one* likes their religion to be 'defamed'. Yet it
seems to me that the best way for Roman Pagans to make sure this does not
happen to the Religio is not to be, well, 'paranoid' (ever-watchful in a very
stern way?) against any possible slight to our path.

It seems more productive, reasonable, and even *easier* to instead
concentrate on restoring the Religio in all positive ways, making our
religious community more cohesive, and to continuing the worship of the Gods.

Seriously, we know fully well that the *vast majority* of people in the world
are not Roman Pagans, and their views on our path range from total
disinterest to finding the idea of the Religio a threat to their own ways. We
can easily drive ourselves nuts trying to be a sort of 'anti-defiamation
society'... when the real path toward getting the Religio to be more accepted
is to make it a shining example of religion that is positive and productive
in the modern world.

There are many points in which the Religio Romana has *excellent* potential
for wider acceptance. These include its ancient propensity for 'syncretism'
(acceptance or even direct co-option of other deities/faiths), general
tolerance for the ideas of others, and an ancient tradition that has inspired
many of the positive aspects of Western culture today. There is an old saying
that you 'catch more flies with honey than with vinegar'. The Religio Romana
has plenty of positive aspects, and potential for positive, tolerant
community. That's the 'honey'. To be watching everyone else with a suspicious
eye for the slightest 'insult' to one's beliefs most usually tends to be
'vinegar'.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposed law on Comitia calls
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:54:42 -0500

On Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 08:03 AM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

> III. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
> number of citizens exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing over
> a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis shall
> then proceed to call the Comitia Populi Tributa within fifteen (15)
> days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in paragraph
> II of this lex.
>
> IV. Should the ratio between the number of Patricians and the total
> number of citizens *not* exceed 0.1 (the Patricians thus representing
> under a 10% of the total population of Nova Roma), the Tribunus Plebis
> shall then proceed to call the Comitia Plebis Tributa within fifteen
> (15) days from the first tribunician announcement mentioned in
> paragraph II of this lex.

Could you explain the reasoning behind this a little further, Gnaeus
Salix? I think I understand what the proposal would do, but I'd like to
know more about why.

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Political spectrum (was Blasphemy)
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:59:38 +0200

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

<< I have never liked the slogan "fascist of the left" for the simple reason
is that the fascist are of the left. Mussolini was a Socialist before he
founded his own splinter group. The German Nazi party was the National
Socialist German Workers Party. A large number of top Nazi really believed
in the SOCIALIST part of the party name and a great number of the lower
ranks as well ( mainly the leadership of the party army the S.A.). Hitler
was an opportunist that used any and everything and anybody to get and keep
power in HIS hands. Stalin could not believe that Hitler had betrayed him,
both being dictators and SOCIALISTS! >>

What you say is wrong for several reasons:

(1) "Socialism" does not equal "communism". In popular American belief it
often seems to do. There is a huge difference, however. Socialism works
within the network of capitalist economy but strives for a government that
does something to stop a form of capitalism that will eat itself, without
resorting to marxist techniques.

(2) As you yourself admit, the "socialism" of Mussolini and Hitler was just
a pretext.

(3) Fascism in its purest form is militaristic, intolerant, nationalistic
and advocates traditional role patterns. Socialism in its purest form
promotes a classless state that cares for its subjects. Fascism is not a
"leftist" ideology. There are some parallels between stalinism (which has
been a popular target of anti-leftists) and fascism but everyone with a mind
of his own will know that stalinism was a pretty far shot from any real
leftist ideology.

Vale bene!
Marcus Octavius Solaris


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Curator Differium ( Newsletter editor)
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:01:38 -0500

Salve, I hope someone can help me with these questions

I see that Nova Roma has an official new letter, The Eagle, that is not being published for wont of an editor. Is this an on-line newsletter or the snail mail kind? How often was it published and how often should it be published? Are there any online copies that can be seen? What type of news is covered in it or should be. What is the budget for the newsletter? How many people did it take to put out the old one? Who were the writers, correspondents? Did it have advertising?

Vale,
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Curator Differium ( Newsletter editor)
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:20:31 -0600 (CST)

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

> I see that Nova Roma has an official new letter, The Eagle, that is
> not being published for wont of an editor.

True; the elected Curator Differium resigned early in the year (simply
due to lack of time), and there were no volunteers.

> Is this an on-line newsletter or the snail mail kind?

Paper, mailed out to paying subscribers.

> How often was it published and how often should it be published?

Publication has been irregular. I think a good target would be
six issues each year. Helena Galeria, the Curatrix of 2001,
managed to do considerably better than that.

> Are there any online copies that can be seen?

Not that I'm aware of, unless someone has scanned in their copy.

> What type of news is covered in it or should be.

That would be up to the Curator. Past issues have contained summaries
of main list debates (with excerpts from important posts); feature
articles contributed by citizens; religious articles contributed by
Pontifices; ancient and modern poetry; calendars; notices of upcoming
events.

> What is the budget for the newsletter?

The budget, and the method of payment, would be discussed between
the Curator and the Senate early in the year. The Curator would not
be expected to pay for printing.

> How many people did it take to put out the old one?
> Who were the writers, correspondents?

Primarily it's the work of the Curator (and any scriba he appoints).
Articles would be contributed by other citizens, but they're not
considered part of the Curator's staff... they're unpaid freelancers.

> Did it have advertising?

That's up to each Curator. I think that tasteful and relevant ads
would be acceptable, and would help to pay for printing and postage.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: On to new and great things
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 16:31:10 -0000

Salve,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Well said indeed! We of the Gens Silvanus have survived another
season of harvesting the precious fruit that grows upon our blessed
vines. Having spent last evening in dancing in tubs and pressing the
rich juice for its rebirth in many amphoras , we were delighted to
read your post of great wisdom. Today you shall be toasted during our
feast for your contribution.

Vale

Gens Silvanus

The gods of Rome, Wicca and Yaweh aren't
> going to go poof and put a windfall of money in NR's coffers, the
> gods of Rome, Wicca and Yaweh aren't going to wave their arms and
> make miraculously appear a piece of land for Nova Roma to build on,
> the gods of Rome, Wicca and Yaweh will not conjur a new website to
> advertise to the world of the resergence of Nova Roma and I doubt
> that the gods of Rome will raise a new temple for NR in 1 day.
>
> If they look at this message board which is one of
> the first windows into NR and see that we are hostile, bickering
and
> have a set of lips that just don't quit, continually arguing like
the
> old days, I can assure you we'll be a big joke or laughing stock
and
> get ^%#*&@@!! (censored) all.
>
> I hope most of you understand my point. Lets move along from here,
> prey to our own Gods for guidance in our endeavours.
>
> Yours respectfully,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Curator Differium ( Newsletter editor)
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:34:09 -0500

Salve, Honored Consul

Again thank you for you timely response. Does anyone have copies of the Newsletter? I would like to see what came before and how it might look in the future? Am I correct in my reading of the new lex that one can not run for Curator Differium and Quaestor at the same time?

Vale,
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:20 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Curator Differium ( Newsletter editor)

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

> I see that Nova Roma has an official new letter, The Eagle, that is
> not being published for wont of an editor.

True; the elected Curator Differium resigned early in the year (simply
due to lack of time), and there were no volunteers.

> Is this an on-line newsletter or the snail mail kind?

Paper, mailed out to paying subscribers.

> How often was it published and how often should it be published?

Publication has been irregular. I think a good target would be
six issues each year. Helena Galeria, the Curatrix of 2001,
managed to do considerably better than that.

> Are there any online copies that can be seen?

Not that I'm aware of, unless someone has scanned in their copy.

> What type of news is covered in it or should be.

That would be up to the Curator. Past issues have contained summaries
of main list debates (with excerpts from important posts); feature
articles contributed by citizens; religious articles contributed by
Pontifices; ancient and modern poetry; calendars; notices of upcoming
events.

> What is the budget for the newsletter?

The budget, and the method of payment, would be discussed between
the Curator and the Senate early in the year. The Curator would not
be expected to pay for printing.

> How many people did it take to put out the old one?
> Who were the writers, correspondents?

Primarily it's the work of the Curator (and any scriba he appoints).
Articles would be contributed by other citizens, but they're not
considered part of the Curator's staff... they're unpaid freelancers.

> Did it have advertising?

That's up to each Curator. I think that tasteful and relevant ads
would be acceptable, and would help to pay for printing and postage.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Curator Differium ( Newsletter editor)
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:41:37 -0600 (CST)

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

> Am I correct in my reading of the new lex that one can not run for
> Curator Differium and Quaestor at the same time?

That's a proposal for a law that would go into effect after it is
approved for the voters. Right now, there is no prohibition against
standing for multiple elected offices simultaneously.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Curator Differium ( Newsletter editor)
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:44:26 -0500

Salve, Honored Consul

Thanks
Vale TGP
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:42 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Curator Differium ( Newsletter editor)

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

> Am I correct in my reading of the new lex that one can not run for
> Curator Differium and Quaestor at the same time?

That's a proposal for a law that would go into effect after it is
approved for the voters. Right now, there is no prohibition against
standing for multiple elected offices simultaneously.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A question about the epigrams..
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 16:43:57 -0000

The rules say the format must be A: 13-15 syll, B: 11-15 syll. Now is
A one line or 2 lines equalling a verse?

Vale,
Lithia Cassia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Poll Deleted, but results are here anyway.
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 16:02:30 -0000

The purpose for the poll was to get a gauge of attitudes within Nova
Roma. Of course such a poll as this is in no way scientific. It
lacks the neceessary controls. For instance, there is no way to know
if some of the respondents are not citizens. Secondly, it is a safe
bet some Christians voted in the poll and selected options 1 or 2. So
this poll does not make an accurate predition of the percentage of
pagans who would rather see NR to be pagan only. {Even so, the third
option was still chosen by 8 people, or over 20 percent.}

However, since several people have asked the poll be deleted, I will
do so. Here are the results from 37 votes recorded so far.

Yes. Nova Roma should be open to all. The prohibitions against
blasphemy and disrespect should be extended to all religions, without
jeapordizing the Religio Romana as the official religion.
18 votes 48.63%

Yes, it should be open to all. But there is no need for extending the
prohibitions against blasphemy and disrespect. Leave things as they
are. If monotheists cannot deal with it, they can leave.
11 votes 29.73%

No. Nova Roma really should be for pagans only. There are other
societies for all regardless of religion. This is the only one for
Pagans.
8 votes 21.64%


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] DECLARATION: OCTAVIUS for CENSOR
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:55:07 -0600 (CST)

III Non. Novembras MMDCCLV a.u.c.

Civibus Novae Romae M. Octavius Germanicus salutem plurinam dicit,

Citizens of Nova Roma, I come before you today to declare my
candidacy for the office of CENSOR.

I have served our Republic for two and one-half years. In May 2753,
I was elected Curule Aedile, and dedicated myself to improving
the management of our citizenship records. To accomplish this,
I built tools by which the Censores could edit a database of
citizen information hosted on a central server. In June of that
year, the Senate unanimously voted to transfer the web site
www.novaroma.org to my server and to use the new database and
tools for citizen information.

As a result of this, the Album Civium and Album Gentium, which had
previously been a pair of simple text pages, were transformed into
a system of personal profile pages for each citizen, many with lists
of titles and offices held, contact information, and photographs.
Additionally, by continuing to host our central web site on my
server for no charge, the treasury of Nova Roma has saved over
$200 each year in hosting fees.

The next year, I was elected to the office of Curator Araneum by
the Tribes, and Propraetor of Lacus Magni provincia by the Senate.
Simultaneously, I served as scriba to the Censores, assisting them
in their duties - performing database queries, generating lists of
citizens for provincial governors, and allocating tribes and
centuries. I made a number of web site improvements that year,
including a login feature, automated voter code mailing, and a
greatly enhanced new citizen application allowing listing of gentes,
selection from that list, and automatic notification of paterfamilias
and approval of the applicant. My online calendar provides Roman
dates in the traditional form, easy visual identification of days
on which voting or public business is permitted, or religious
festivals are scheduled, and scheduling of events by citizens.

I was next elected Consul, and took office in January 2002, and
also served a second term as Curator Araneum. When we unexpectedly
lost control of our mailing list, I was ready with four years of
message archives, made available to you the very next day,
preserving our history for the study of future citizens.

To protect our name, I filed for a trademark of "NOVA ROMA" (to
be owned by Nova Roma, Inc., a non-profit Maine Corporation) and
engaged an attorney at my own expense to ensure that the application
would be processed smoothly. He has since discussed the matter
with the trademark examiner and we expect the mark to be
issued early next year.

Although I held two offices, Consul and Curator, I continued to
assist the Censores as scriba, generating lists of citizen information,
performing mass mailings, and allocating tribes and centuries. As
Curator, I continued with website improvements, including reformatting
of the message archives, installing a search engine, installing
versions of the main page in six additional languages, and adding
new citizen applications in two new languages. The multilingual
web site is a work in progress, and I hope to have three more
languages on the new citizen application by the end of the year.

I authored several laws this year, one of which was a Constitutional
Amendment, reducing the number of centuries from 193 to a number
proportional to our population, which will reduce the likelihood
of any future election being inconclusive. I authored a proposed
lex guaranteeing the right of any citizen to leave a gens by their
own choice; this was eventually issued as an edict by the Censores.

I attended two meetings of Citizens this year. In June, I attended
and photographed "Roman Days" in Maryland, where I met other Senators
and Citizens for the first time. In September, I traveled to
Columbus Ohio for our second provincial gathering. I intend to
return to both these events next year.

Citizens, I ask you to elect me as Censor. Although I have not
held that title in the past, I am very aware of the exact nature
of the work - for I designed and maintained the tools that the
Censores use. I created the new citizen application, and know
better than anyone how a citizen's records are created, who is
notified, what changes have to take place before they can become
active, and all of the steps involved in the transition from applicant
to citizen. I have (acting as scribe) performed every tribal and
century allocation for the past two years. I created the repositories
of citizen, gens, magistrate, priest, province, and century point
information; I can (as the need arises) modify these to add extra
capabilities to the system, or increase efficiency.

I believe that, because I designed and built the system used by the
past four Censores, supported and advised each of them, and am on
excellent terms with my future colleague C. Flavius Diocletianus,
I am the ideal candidate for Censor. I ask for your support.

Valete,
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Consul MMDCCLV,
Candidate for Censor MMDCCLVI

Campaign Website:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

PAST EXPERIENCE

Curule Aedile MMDCCLIII (2000) May - December
Scriba Censoris MMDCCLIII (2000)/July - present
Scriba Curatoris MMDCCLIII (2000)/July - December
Senator MMDCCLIII (2000)/November - present
Propraetor Lacuum Magnorum MMDCCLIV (2001)
Curator Araneum MMDCCLIV (2001)
Consul (Senior) MMDCCLV (2002)
Curator Araneum MMDCCLV (2002)

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus
Consul of Nova Roma, MMDCCLV a.u.c.
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] DECLARATION OF CANDIDACY FOR TRIBUNUS PLEBIS
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 12:05:27 -0500

Citizens of Nova Roma:

I humbly present myself to you and declare my candidacy for the office of Tribunus Plebis in the year 2756 A.U.C.

I currently serve the Republic as a Legate in the province of Lacus Magni, and as Flamen Pomonalis. Nova Roma means a great deal to me, and it is my desire to see the Republic continue to grow and prosper. I wish to dedicate myself to the service of Nova Roma, as I firmly believe in the principles in which it was founded.

I would like to provide some information about myself. I am 32 years old, and work in the advertising/publishing industry. I have been a member of Nova Roma since May, and have been very active since I chose to become a citizen in the Republic. I am not new to volunteer work, and understand the work and diligence required for success in any endeavor.

My platform is as follows:

I. To cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best interests of Nova Roma.
II. To encourage the active participation of all citizens within Nova Roma.
III. To facilitate communication between the Senate and the People.
IV. To advocate for an increased local presence of Nova Roma within Macronations.

I give my pledge to serve Nova Roma to the best of my abilities, and to honor my term of office. I also pledge to facilitate a spirit of tolerance between the Pagan and non-Pagan believers within our Republic. It is through tolerance and mutual understanding, and dialogue that we can all stand together united as New Romans.

In Fellowship:

Gaius Modius Athanasius

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal."
-Albert Pike

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Salute, Senator Marcus Minicus Audens
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 17:08:06 -0000

Salve,

The Gens Silvanus wishes to raise their collective vessels in a toast
to the recent honor extended to the Venerable Senator Marcus Minicus
Audens for his many contributions the the republic. Hail Marcus
Minicus Audens!
Silvanus has dedicated the first bottle of this years harvest to the
good Senator. We ask only that he wait for a period of 5 years to
enjoy it! Thank you for your direction.
This proposed at the Silvanus harvest of November by the members
present of Gens Silvanus , at the Harbor of Oaks , in the Province
Lacus Magni.

Gens Silvanus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Political spectrum (was Blasphemy)
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:09:54 -0500

Salve, Marcus Octavius Solaris

(2) As you yourself admit, the "socialism" of Mussolini and Hitler was just
a pretext

I admit that HITLER was an opportunist! Mussolini, however was a card carrying socialist and he is the founder of Fascist movement. Some one in another post even reminded us that he was the editor of the Socialist party newspaper. Nazism was and is "in its purest form is militaristic, intolerant, nationalistic and advocates traditional role patterns"

But Muss. Italy was NOT intolerant and only helped the Nazi's with the round up of Jewish people and others with a GUN to their heads. Also While Hitler would use anything and anybody to get to power and keep it his main leadership corps and millions of followers were TRUE believers in a NATIONAL SOCIALISM that differed only in small ways from the main Marxist, Communist Socialist fountain head from which it sprang. Some say the only reason that Socialism/Communism has not worked is that the "Right" people haven't been in charge. Socialism/Communism does not work because it is a utopian dream that needs a gun in someone hand to force it on the majority of people Utopia's are dreams that can never be. Human nature will not allow it.

"There are some parallels between stalinism (which has
been a popular target of anti-leftists) and fascism but everyone with a mind
of his own will know that stalinism was a pretty far shot from any real
leftist ideology."

Really?

While it is true that had Lenin lived longer or not been attacked and in some way diminished in his capacities he most likely would have replaced Stalin. But it must also be acknowledge that the organs of state that Stalin used to impose his Cult of personality on the Nation and party were put in place by Lenin and the party!!( Checka/NKVD/KGB)?

In a very large sense STALIN was the logical replacement for Lenin. Every other Communist /Socialist State has been build on a Stalinist model. I know of no other, do you? Last time I checked even Tito had a secret police.

" Marxist techniques." Don't you mean Leninist technique? Without Marx their is no Communism or Socialist
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:02 AM
To: Nova Roma
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Political spectrum (was Blasphemy)

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

<< I have never liked the slogan "fascist of the left" for the simple reason
is that the fascist are of the left. Mussolini was a Socialist before he
founded his own splinter group. The German Nazi party was the National
Socialist German Workers Party. A large number of top Nazi really believed
in the SOCIALIST part of the party name and a great number of the lower
ranks as well ( mainly the leadership of the party army the S.A.). Hitler
was an opportunist that used any and everything and anybody to get and keep
power in HIS hands. Stalin could not believe that Hitler had betrayed him,
both being dictators and SOCIALISTS! >>

What you say is wrong for several reasons:

(1) "Socialism" does not equal "communism". In popular American belief it
often seems to do. There is a huge difference, however. Socialism works
within the network of capitalist economy but strives for a government that
does something to stop a form of capitalism that will eat itself, without
resorting to marxist techniques.

(2) As you yourself admit, the "socialism" of Mussolini and Hitler was just
a pretext.

(3) Fascism in its purest form is militaristic, intolerant, nationalistic
and advocates traditional role patterns. Socialism in its purest form
promotes a classless state that cares for its subjects. Fascism is not a
"leftist" ideology. There are some parallels between stalinism (which has
been a popular target of anti-leftists) and fascism but everyone with a mind
of his own will know that stalinism was a pretty far shot from any real
leftist ideology.

Vale bene!
Marcus Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:18:10 +0100

Salve Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur, Amice!

I am very impressed with your legislative work. I have also studied
the law of Old Roma, not to the extent that You seem to have done
though. I have also followed the development of the Constitution and
the laws that belong to it for more than two years. I must admit that
I have not much more to add than: BRAVO!

>Ex Officio Tribunorum Plebis.
>
>Through this port, and according to the prerogatives established in the
>Constitution of Nova Roma, I officially present the following
>legislative proposals to the Comitia:
>
>To the Comitia Populi Tributa:
>- Lex Salicia de Prorogatione et Cumulatione
>- Lex Salicia de Suffragiis in Comitia Populi Tributa
>- Lex Salicia Iudiciaria
>- Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione
>
>To the Comitia Plebis Tributa:
>- Lex Salicia de Suffragiis in Comitia Plebis Tributa
>- Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione
>
>The full text of all these proposals shall be submitted in my following
>messages to these same fora.
>
>These proposals shall be voted following this schedule:
>
>17 November (Sunday; Comitalis) - Begin voting
>23 November (Saturday; Comitalis) - End voting
>26 November (Tuesday; Comitalis) - Announce voting results.
>
>=====
>Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Tribunus Plebis
>Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
>Triumvir Academiae Thules
>Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
>Lictor Curiatus.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Yahoo! Messenger
>Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis!
>Descárgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es
>
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>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: DECLARATION: OCTAVIUS for CENSOR
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 17:59:05 -0000

Marcus Octavius Germanicus writes:

[his announcement of candidacy for censor]

Ending with:
> I am the ideal candidate for Censor. I ask for your support.

I agree, and I will be pleased to cast my vote for Octavius
Germanicus to become Nova Roma's next censor.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] (In)Action & Responsibility
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:08:35 +0000 (GMT)

Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis wrote:

> This sort of thing can go into ethical melt-down of course. I tend to think of Aleister > Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". Firstly, he included the > time factor: what thou Wilt is not necessarily what you want right now. For
> instance, I might will to be a graduate but I want to spend the time getting drunk:
> what I Will must make a commitment overriding what I want at any specific time.

At the risk of seeming pedantic, I take issue with your interpretation of this quotation. 'What thou wilt' means 'what you want' or 'what you intend'. In Elizebethan / Jacobean English (and still technically in modern English, though usage has slipped) 'will' didn't have any particular connotation about time or timescale. 'What you will' doesn't mean 'what you are going to do', nor does it mean 'what you would like to occur over a long period of time'. At the time when Crowley wrote, to say 'do what thou wantst' would have been nonsensical - it would mean 'do what you lack' or 'do what you need to have'. So the quotation clearly can't carry any implied distinction between what one wills and what one wants in the way that you suggest. It means nothing more sophisticated than 'do what you want'.

Jamie

www.strategikon.org

---------------------------------
Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Testimony
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 19:13:00 -0000

Salvete!
I have been somewhat absent for the last 2 months, lurking on borrowed
computers to keep up with events in Nova Roma. I'd like to share these
recent events with all of you and take care of some business at the
same time. I may borrow some phrases, terms, or ideas from other
belief systems. I mean no disrespect to any other belief system in my
comments.

I believe in the ability of the pantheon of Roman Gods to care for all
of us. I believe they have cared for me through recent events in my
life. I'll spare the details but give the general idea.

Two months ago my PC broke down. During the repair period I was asked
to relocate and consider a divorce by my wife. She kept my 3 children
and would not allow me to see them. I am a massage therapist and began
to develope wrist tendonitis at this time, requiring me to reduce my
workload and therefore my income. My car broke down. I was involved in
a "disagreement" with my step-father and was again asked to relocate
(I'd been staying at Mommies house).

Every crisis prompted frequent sincere prayer on my part, with great
sucess. Sometimes I tried to pray to the "appropriate" Deity in a
structured ritual form. Other times I called out in frustration to
them all seeking aid. The form didn't seem to matter.
A friend sold me a good car for about a weeks pay($400). Another
friend gave me a place to stay after losing my room at Mom's and sold
me a Mac for about a days pay ($100). A new business opportunity and a
return to school next semester will allow me to reduce the amount I
work and deal with my rebellious wrists. Mothers dealing quite sternly
with step-father. My wife and I are back together, better than ever
(My apologies to all you hopeful single ladies). I am actively
resumming my duties as Propraetor and Tribune however......

I have no budget to report to the Senate and I will not be seeking
pro-rogation unless a suitable candidate fails to step forward to take
up the task. My journey up the cursus honorum will be placed on hold
until after I complete my studies, I will strive to complete my
current terms in a satisfactory manner.

It feels great to be "back" amongst you good people. If you didn't
notice I was gone, don't feel bad. I don't notice when you're missing
either : )

Lucius Mauricius Procopious

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Testimony
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:21:26 +0100

Salve Illustrus Lucius Mauricius Procopious !

I am sorry ;-) but I have wondered. These resignations makes one
suspicious. I am glad to see You back again. Good luck and I hope You
will be successful in your studies. You could maybe uphold some
"small" office during your studies. ;-)

>It feels great to be "back" amongst you good people. If you didn't
>notice I was gone, don't feel bad. I don't notice when you're missing
> either : )
>
>Lucius Mauricius Procopious

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question about the epigrams..
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 19:39:52 +0000 (GMT)

Salve Lithia Cassia!

Concerning the epigrams:
A is the first line (13-15 syll)
B is the second line (11-15 syll)

When you want to write an epigram of four lines, you
use:
A(13-15 syll)
B(11-15 syll)
A(13-15 syll)
B(11-15 syll)

Another example by Martialis:

Cum data sint equiti bis quina nomismata, quare
bis decies solus, Sextiliane, bibis?
Iam defecisset portantis calda ministros,
si non potares, Sextiliane, merum.

A (15)
B (13)
A (13)
B (12)

--- lithia_cassia <mscommunication@attbi.com> wrote:
> The rules say the format must be A: 13-15 syll, B:
> 11-15 syll. Now is
> A one line or 2 lines equalling a verse?
>
> Vale,
> Lithia Cassia

Vale bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum
Dominus Factionis Russatae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
***HORUM OMNIUM FORTISSIME SUNT BELGAE***

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:58:24 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, M. Constantine.

--- Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it> escribió:
> I was sure you would have kept this promise, my friend! ;-)
> You made an impressive job. I already read the proposals and will
> further analyze them, as it is an area I am much interested in.
>
> Thank you!

You are welcome. Please feel free to comment the proposals and to make
suggestions as you see fit.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] LEX SALICIA IVDICIARIA
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:11:34 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Hirti Helvetice.

--- "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de> escribió:
> Salvete Quirites, et salve, Astur!
>
> I'd like to thank honoured Tribunus Plebis Astur for
> his impressive work! During my studies at university I
> heard several lectures on Roman law and as far as I
> can judge, this proposed lex is indeed very accurate
> in recreating the ancient's system. Once again, thank
> you!

You are welcome, Helvetice.
I have tried to follow Roman historical practice whenever possible. It
is nice from you to have noticed :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LEG III AVG LIB pia vindex
From:	"MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS" <MLCRASSVS@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 03 Nov 2002 19:31:32 -0000

MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS QVIRITIBVS S.P.D.

AVETE,

Just to let you all know that I'm three quarters finished the article
on Legio III Augusta and should have it with you soon!

By the way, can I wish colleague, MANIVS CONSTANTINVS SERAPIO every
sucess and best wishes in his bid for QVAESTOR - his untiring work
and commitment make him a most suitable and desirable candidate.

MANIVS CONSTANTINVS you shall have my support!

VALETE

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE

TVVS IN SODOLICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
---------------------
AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] ROMAN TIMES - Standpoints of Caeso and his friends
From:	Emilia Curia Finnica <e.curia@welho.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:52:20 +0200

Salvete,

The first issue of Roman Times is now available. Only on Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus's election campaign site:
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/

Roman Times is about fun and politics. Read the latest of opinions
from Caeso's team here!

***

In this issue:

1. DECLARATION OF CANDIDACY TO RUN FOR CONSUL OF NOVA ROMA FOR THE
YEAR 2756 A.U.C.
by Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

2. My Year in the Cohors Aedilis Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
by Caius Curius Saturninus

3. On the way back from the Tongeren Rally
by Sextus Apollonius Scipio

***

Valete,
--

Emilia Curia Finnica
Scriba Araniae Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Scriba Aedilis (Caeso Fabius Q.) Aranei

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposed law on Comitia calls
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:16:05 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Patricia Cassia.

--- Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org> escribió:
> Could you explain the reasoning behind this a little further, Gnaeus
> Salix? I think I understand what the proposal would do, but I'd like
> to know more about why.

As you probably know, our current Constitution instructs the tribunes
to call the Comitia POPULI Tributa (instead of the Comitia PLEBIS
Tributa) whenever the patricians represent over a 10% of the total
population of Nova Roma. The sole intent behind the Lex Salicia de
Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione is to clarify and codify the legal
procedure to choose between the Comitia Populi Tributa and the Comitia
Plebis Tributa.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] TRIBUNICIAN LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS (correction)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:22:25 +0100 (CET)

Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

Ex Officio Tribunorum Plebis

It has been pointed to us that, according to the LEX LABIENIA DE
RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM
( http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2001-04-12-i.html ),
the period between the start and end of the voting must last
no less than 8 days.

In order to comply with this law, the voting agenda on this month's
tribunician legislative proposals is hereby changed to:

17 November (Sunday; Comitalis) - Begin voting
25 November (Monday; Comitalis) - End voting
28 November (Thursay; Comitalis) - Announce voting results.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Testimony
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:22:48 -0500

Lucius Mauritius, I am very sorry to hear of your troubles, and glad to
have you back among us and enjoying a more stable life!

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:33:55 -0800 (PST)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
SNIP
>
> You are welcome. Please feel free to comment the
> proposals and to make
> suggestions as you see fit.
>
Salve,
My first sugestion would be to withdraw the porposals
until Next Month.

We allready have the Elections for Magistrates this
month. We have the controversy over Blasphemy that
remains to be resolved. In addition citizens residing
in the USA are two days away from elections for the US
Congress, the State Legislatures, and in most states
the Governers.

Citizens have a limited ammount of time, and adding a
major legislative package to the other issuses may
result in some important issuses including your
proposals recieving less attention than they deserve.

The Leges need to be carefuly reviewed by the citizens
before they are voted on. The Canidates postions need
to be reviewed. The Blasphemy issuse needs to be
carefuly considered. Last year we had major problems
with our elections because no one noticed the
ramifications of an election Lex until it was too
late.

We need careful consideration of the issuses before we
make decessions, and the more issuses we face at once,
the lower the likelihood that they will be all be
carefully considered.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:43:19 -0600 (CST)

Salve Luci Sicini,

> The Leges need to be carefuly reviewed by the citizens
> before they are voted on. The Canidates postions need
> to be reviewed. The Blasphemy issuse needs to be
> carefuly considered.

As the "Blasphemy" issue may require a Constitutional change,
and as we are awaiting a recommendation from the Collegium
Pontificum, I respectfully submit that it is an issue for
next year's magistrates. With two months remaining in
the current administration, there just isn't time for
major changes to the Constitution to be given appropriate
consideration.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] START OF THE LUDI PLEBEII
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:46:44 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete omnes!

The Ludi Plebei are declared open!

The Ludi will start on 4th of November, and continue
through to the 17th of November. They are organised
by the two Plebeian Aediles, Tiberius Apollonius
Cicatrix and Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
These Ludi are the public games, to the glory of Roma!

Information is available on our website:
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/plebei.html

Our Ludi include the following events (seperate emails
on each of the events will follow!):

The Venationes! Your brave men can battle against the
wild beasts again!

Photo Contest - a photo of a Roman monument will be
posted each day, and you have to guess what it is, and
where it stands.

Epigram Contest - are you the next of the great Roman
poets? Write a short epigram!

Rhetorics Contest - test your rhetoric skills!

Law Cases - with various cases, you are one of the
jurors! These are complex cases, which you will have
to consider carefully before giving your opinion.

Temple of Romanitas - the Aediles have commissioned
a temple to be built, with every brick showing a word
that describes Romanitas or Roma. What words do you
think best encompasses everything Roman?

Quiz - Five questions each day on varying topics; see
who knows most on ancient Rome!

In organising these Ludi, the Plebeian Aediles would
like to thank the following people, who have all been
instrumental in making the Ludi happen:

Manius Constantinus Serapio
Ianus Minucius Sparsus
(Pompeia Cornelia Strabo)

Let the games begin!

Bene valete,
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus
Plebeian Aediles

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:52:50 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> escribió:
> Salve,
> My first sugestion would be to withdraw the porposals
> until Next Month.
>
> We allready have the Elections for Magistrates this
> month. We have the controversy over Blasphemy that
> remains to be resolved. In addition citizens residing
> in the USA are two days away from elections for the US
> Congress, the State Legislatures, and in most states
> the Governers.
>
> Citizens have a limited ammount of time, and adding a
> major legislative package to the other issuses may
> result in some important issuses including your
> proposals recieving less attention than they deserve.
>
> The Leges need to be carefuly reviewed by the citizens
> before they are voted on. The Canidates postions need
> to be reviewed. The Blasphemy issuse needs to be
> carefuly considered. Last year we had major problems
> with our elections because no one noticed the
> ramifications of an election Lex until it was too
> late.
>
> We need careful consideration of the issuses before we
> make decessions, and the more issuses we face at once,
> the lower the likelihood that they will be all be
> carefully considered.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus

With all due respect, Druse, the presentation of these proposals to the
People has been postponed too much already. This comitial convocation
is about the last time we have to actually vote on these proposals, all
of which but one have already been publicly announced in the past few
months.

So I would say that the fifteen days left before the beginning of the
votation, added to the three months since the last presentation of
these proposals, is time enough to meditate about them.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Political spectrum (was Blasphemy)
From:	"J. Meuleman" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:02:39 +0200

M. Octavius Solaris Tiberio Galerio Paulino SPD;

<< I admit that HITLER was an opportunist! Mussolini, however was a card
carrying socialist and he is the founder of Fascist movement. Some one in
another post even reminded us that he was the editor of the Socialist party
newspaper. >>

MOS: People can change political colours and affiliations, you know.

<< But Muss. Italy was NOT intolerant and only helped the Nazi's with the
round up of Jewish people and others with a GUN to their heads. Also While
Hitler would use anything and anybody to get to power and keep it his main
leadership corps and millions of followers were TRUE believers in a NATIONAL
SOCIALISM that differed only in small ways from the main Marxist, Communist
Socialist fountain head from which it sprang. >>

MOS: Then why was Hitler constantly alluding on the "Red Danger" and the
"despicable Bolshevism"? The "Blut und Boden"-ideology (explained in "Mein
Kampf", the basis for the nazi ideology for the '30s) differed substantially
from marxism. Marxism believes in a classless society led for and by the
people, and believes this evolution is inevitably due to the
self-destructiveness of capitalism. National-socialism had some socialist
touches in its economic policies but was radically different in basis.
National-socialism believed in the superiority of the Aryan race, a
hierarchic society and a totalitarian form of capitalism.

<< Some say the only reason that Socialism/Communism has not worked is that
the "Right" people haven't been in charge. Socialism/Communism does not
work because it is a utopian dream that needs a gun in someone hand to
force it on the majority of people Utopia's are dreams that can never be.
Human nature will not allow it. >>

MOS: I agree, but I still hold there is a difference between communism and
socialism. Ask any European.

<< While it is true that had Lenin lived longer or not been attacked and in
some way diminished in his capacities he most likely would have replaced
Stalin. But it must also be acknowledge that the organs of state that Stalin
used to impose his Cult of personality on the Nation and party were put in
place by Lenin and the party!!( Checka/NKVD/KGB)? In a very large sense
STALIN was the logical replacement for Lenin. Every other Communist
/Socialist State has been build on a Stalinist model. I know of no other, do
you? Last time I checked even Tito had a secret police. >>

MOS: Maoism is different in some aspects. Tito had a secret police, but
there must be reasons why his course of communism was different from the
USSR's. Lenin hated Stalin, by the way. He allegedly literally said on one
occasion that of all party members, his least favoured successor was Stalin.
Of course, I agree that leninism already had the seeds of totalitarianism,
but that's because of the inherent structure of communism. The 20th-century
philosopher K.R. Popper remarked that any ideology which sets forth a
possible "ideal state" (platonism, fascism, communism) will, once that ideal
has been achieved, become automatically totalitarian and authoritarian to
protect its own self-perceived "perfection". Eventually it will also destroy
itself precisely because of this.

<< " Marxist techniques." Don't you mean Leninist technique? Without Marx
their is no Communism or Socialist. >>

MOS: I don't see the logic between your first and second phrase... Could you
explain please?

Quirites, take notice that I will most likely not be available to respond to
this thread the coming week as I will only have computer access on
Saturdays. So my replies may be very much delayed.

Optime vale,
Marcus Octavius Solaris


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Recent Main List Poll
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 16:00:47 -0500 (EST)

Honored Citizens of Nova Roma;

I stand in forum among you tovoice my agreement with my excellent
Cornicuilarius (Militarium Adjutant) Marinus. The poll was not in my
view either a fair set of questions, nor an overly clever thing to put
on the Main List at this time. I am not sure of the up=-to-the minute
rules for posting such activities on the Main List, but in this
particular case, I think perhaps the attempt at least was
counterproductive. I do ot intend to dignify such questions with an
answer , and I would urge all who seek a concordance here to give
careful consideration to those particular questions before answering
such.

In a related matter, the Main List is currently without the review of a
Moderator of significant experience. There have been Scribae recently
reappointed, but as in most new situations such people will tend to be
cautious. Meanwhile the politicl tone of the Main List will increase as
the Election Season begins here in Nova Roma. I wold ask that all here
review thier messages for that essential ingredient of Nova Roma before
posting to the Main List. I think that I understand the desire to argue
the merits of other topics, however, this is a crowded list , and many
are subscribed here who have a full macronational life as well. They
often do not have the luxery to wade through obscure and unrelated
messages to find the Nova Roma information that they need or want.

It is certainly true that the "Delete" button may be exercised, however,
such is not so simple wen one recieves 25 Didest Messages and only a few
of them relate to Nova Roma.

I have been accused previously by dedicated political activists of
trying to stop messages on certain topics. That was not true then nor
is it true now. However, in the absence of the former-Praetor who was
closely involved in Main List Moderation, I would ask that those who
post here, in the interim until her replacement is available would be
particularly careful in their topics of posting.

I further urge all of the Nova Roman Senators and Magistrates to
exercise a particular vigilence in this area, and in the tempory absence
of our two Praetors, exercise your influence in the moderation of our
Main List, until such can be returned to it's former peaceful levels.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Election Reminder
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:09:18 -0600 (CST)

Salvete Cives Omnes,

As a reminder, the list of candidates for each office can be
found at:

http://www.novaroma.org/election/2755/

This can be considered the official listing - it is what will
be used when writing the edict to call the election, and the
configuration file for the voting software is generated as a
by-product of the creation of this page. Therefore, it is
in the best interests of every candidate to check that you are
correctly listed there. Names should appear there within a day
of the declaration of candidacy.

Titus Octavius Pius, scriba curatoris, is maintianing this list.

Valete, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Gens Silvanus
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 16:25:07 -0500 (EST)

My Good Friends'

The Gens Minucia returns thier thanks to your most flattering
compliments. One of the most wonderful aspects of the Nomination by the
excellent Senior Consul Octavius, has seen the outpouring of both public
and personal congratulations from my friends here in Nova Roma. I must
confess that I was not aware of such a widespread affection on the part
of so many, and the new-found knowledge has been most ovrwhelming I must
assure you.

Whatever the decision of the Senate in this matter may be, I shall
always value the Nomination and the virtual flood of best wishes, and
congratulation. I have been honored in this far more hat I probably
deserve, but the good feeling is such that I cannot hold it in.

I accept for my gens, the offer of your first bottle of wine dedicated
as indicated, and I further pledge that it will be as you have
requested, that a full five years will go by, before the bottle is
cracked, and further itis my hope that your Gens and the Minucia will be
able to join in a greta celebration at that humble ceremony.

My deepest thanks my friends for the continuence of the recognition of
the great honor of this Nomination.

Respectfully, and with Great Appreciation;

Marcus Minucius Audens -- Gens Minucia

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:48:35 -0800 (PST)

--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> > The Leges need to be carefuly reviewed by the
> citizens
> > before they are voted on. The Canidates postions
> need
> > to be reviewed. The Blasphemy issuse needs to be
> > carefuly considered.
>
> As the "Blasphemy" issue may require a
> Constitutional change,
> and as we are awaiting a recommendation from the
> Collegium
> Pontificum, I respectfully submit that it is an
> issue for
> next year's magistrates. With two months remaining
> in
> the current administration, there just isn't time
> for
> major changes to the Constitution to be given
> appropriate
> consideration.
>
I Have allready stated on the NovaRomaLaws list that
this shouldn't be rushed, and that it would be an
insult to the Pontifs to even attempt to enact changes
without waiting for thier views and sugestions.

However this issuse affects all of Nova Roma, not just
the Roman Pagans. All Nova Roman citizens have the
right to air thier views on what the clause should or
shouldn't say, and these views may prove helpful to
the Pontifs.

I Invite all intrested citizens of Nova Roma to join
the debate on the NovaRomaLaws list.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Eagle Newsletter
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 17:03:33 -0500 (EST)

Master Paulinus;

I had the privaledge of serving as the Curator Differum, as a "pick-up"
editor for a period of about 5-6 months during the Dictatorship of
Germanicus. The copies of the "Eagle" then went out monthly, to about
50+ subscribers. Many of those subscribers are still on the list
awaiting the completion of thier subscriptions.

The newsletter in those days was put together by myself essentally, with
some help from a few contributors. It was then sent to Cassius who
printed it as a donation to Nova Roma, for which I honor him greatly,
and then the newsletter was mailed to the subscribers, by myself, with
postage donated to Nova Roma.

I have endeavored to collect as many of the old issues as I have been
able to save, since I have been a subscriber and a writer for the
"Eagle" since it's first issue. As I indicated earlier, the "Eagle"
idea had many different facets when it was first introduced, but those
ideas slowkly fell away when it was realized that there would never be
enough people interested in such an activity. Over the years I have
attempted to put together a Sodalitas Newsletter, and a Provincial
Newsletter as a possible supplement to the "Eagle' but both have met
with the same problems and he same result.

The "Eagle" was a good idea, in my view, and at one time I had floated
the idea of making it into an "on-line" newsletter similar to the XXth
and XXIVth Legion's newsletter, and several other newsletters to which I
donate articles in other reenactment eras. However, in order to
maintain such an effort one must have dedicated people who are in a
settled situation to some extent. I have, in the past, edited,
published and maintained a bi-monthly newsletter for the 42nd Regiment
of Foot (Black Watch) Rennactment Unit for nearly five years, by mysef,
so I know whereof that I speak.

I still think that the "Eagle" is a good idea, and many of the
peripheral ideas that grew up around the central idea were good ones,
however, in order to maintain such an organ, there must be a solid basis
of desire for doing such, financing from the parent organization (which
may now be available) and some strong degree of agreement and dedication
on the part of an editor and a small staff of newswriters.

In addition, the past subscribers, should be reimbursed from NR funds,
if a new Differum is not established this year, or if such a person is
appointed, those subscribers should rightly be guaranteed a full set of
issues in coming years or a prompt reimbursement of thier remaining
subscription value.

The articles themselves were much as Senior Consul Octavius has
indicated. The advertising when it was established was usually
advertising from our own Macellum, or from businesses related to Nova
Roma and / or Roman Antiquity.

I hope the above will help you in the pursuence of your questions. I
have also suggested this aspect of communicatiion to other areas within
Nova Roma, but until I have completed these arrangements, if indeed they
will be completed, I am not free to discuss them on the Main List of
course. If you are further interested, I should be pleased to answer
your questions off list.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Blasphemy
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:08:15 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Sicinius Drusus“ <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
>
>The State exists to protect the rights of the
>citizens. Once you get into the “servant“ mentality it
>is only a matter of time until until one group of
>citizens use thier “servant“ to make themselves the
>masters of the rest of the citizens.
>
Some fascinating circular arguments arise from that. It is also possible for a powerful group of citizens to provide themselves with state-protected rights to negate the same rights for others. Rights, rather than freedoms from impostition, always strike me as somewhat dangerous. Rights to work safety and wages produce howls of protest from employers about their rights to collude in producing poverty so there is no choice but unsafe conditions with bad pay. Rights to work all told produced both protests by those who collectively would combine to refuse work to certain groups and the criminilisation by Stalin of unemployment, allowing again, a good way to criminilise dissidents indirectly by refusing to employ them.

>It's amusing to watch leftists demanding that controls
>be placed on private companies, which is the Economic
>theory of the facist movement, and branding those who
>oppose the impostion of economic facism as facists.
>
Private companies are a relatively recent innovation with all the privileges of an individual but none of the responsibilities: put your money in one and run up whatever debts you like but you won't have to pay them. They founded the American colonies and for that reason were loathed and licensed very rarely under municipal charter and strict public auditing for very specific purposses. It is quite strange that the USA which now fosters corporate feudalism and was the first nation to reduce its government as area management for multinational business, owes its origin very much to the revolt of Puritan socialism going back to the Diggers and Levellers against corporate monopoly control of government.
It's also strange that the commonest European experience of the USA is that government interfers with personal liberty in a way rarely seen this side of Singapore, but that is *State* government, not Federal. It is as if the fear of central authority were the feudal fear of the King upholding the freedoms of individual citizens against local grandees trying to legislat what should be a matter for personal adherance to particular religions.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:21:02 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : g_agorius_taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
>
>like, but not in the public forum. And yes, I think that declaring
>that there is only “one God“ in public is a form of slander against
>the State Gods- because by declaring your monotheistic “truth“ in
>public, you are stating that your god is real, and the other gods
>aren't real. And that's not right.
>
This is deep water but we are not living 2,000 years ago and I think most of us take for granted a religious attitude that was probably then the preserve only of Mystery Initiations, and a great deal more scientific knowledge than they possessed. Anyone who sincerely believes that a personal divinity created the world as is in six days (or by the 84 Million positions of sexual intercourse possible with as many arms as Parvatii and Siwa) is unlikely to be here anyway.
>
>The “One God“ of Monotheists is not one of the State Gods of Nova
>Roma. Nova Roma is a reconstructionist Pagan society- the website
>says so. I think that in theory, if someone has something nasty to
>say about this hebrew “One God“ here, that we could then see that
>this person has little public dignity, if they knowingly mock
>another's God.
>
Nor is that 'one god' usually looked on in the extreme personal sense attributed to Classical gods (though truer of Greece perhaps than of Rome). It is quite clear that when Marcus Aurelius speaks of Zeus he could as easily be speaking of any Ultimate Force of any religion unknown to him. The point of monotheism is usually that the divinity is a much grander concept than the individual persons of a pantheon. Conversely, original Biblical texts treat various formal names of the divinity in a way identical to the separate gods of a pantheon. I rather suspect the wise on both sides fully accepted that they were both using their most suitable language to describe the indescribable. Every polytheism has monotheistic aspects, every monotheism generates personalised miraculous saints (even Islam) identical to pagan demi-gods and minor deities.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Action and Responsibility
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:22:59 +0000 (GMT)

I wrote:

> I'm prepared to wade through as much muck as I need to

Patricia Cassia wrote:

> Please don't. We've had enough muck. You seem capable of stating your
> views in a dignified fashion, and contributing to the information and
> furtherance of this community, and I encourage you to continue doing so.

I'm afraid you misunderstand me: I can see that that would be easy to do if one happened to glimpse the sentence you quoted without reading it in its context. I was replying to the suggestion that the discussion about moral responsibility for inaction was likely to be (ethically) messy, and that it should therefore be avoided. My response was intended to convey, within the same metaphor, that I am not to be put off from any discussion by the possibility that it will involve serious and difficult issues and important disagreements. I didn't take the message to which I responded to be in any way suggesting that the discussion would involve any personal unpleasantness, and likewise my response made no reference to that possibility.

I am prepared to wade through muck: I have no intention of throwing it at anyone else. :)

Jamie

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Blasphemy
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:32:02 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Sicinius Drusus“ <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
>
>The US was recently “treated“ to the AOL/Netscape gang
>wining and dining one administration to get antitrust
>charges filed against the Microsoft gang, only to see
>any meaningful sanctions after the conviction vanish
>as the Microsoft gang got a kidgloves settlement from
>the next administration.
>
Then that is the perfect argument against allowing these gangs privileges beyond those applying to normal individuals. They are not Forces of Nature: they are human creations and like any human creation, should be under human control, not become the controllers. This has long been the 'Erhard Doctrine' and of all the nations blasted by WW2, Germany emerged the strongest economy able to sop its Eastern disaster up with relatively minor damage because of it.
Luckily, the argument does not apply since limitted liability was unheard of in the ancient or Renaissance world and did not prevent corporations with full responsibility for their [mis]deeds and the indivduals concerned in them from becoming very rich indeed.
It is also worth mentioning that Latin Europe still gives at least the impression and legislates to protect, a land of small family farms and businesses rather than giant corporations, and that the biggest and most successful employer and retailer in Spain is a co-operative of co-operatives, not a Corporation answerable to nobody except investors interested only in the highest monetary returns regardless of production quality and methods.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Political spectrum (was Blasphemy)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:49:40 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com>
>
>While it is true that had Lenin lived longer or not been attacked and in some way diminished in his capacities he most likely would have replaced Stalin. But it must also be acknowledge that the organs of state that Stalin used to impose his Cult of personality on the Nation and party were put in place by Lenin and the party!!( Checka/NKVD/KGB)?
>
The Russian government Lenin overthrew was itself Socialist and the Marxist elements of it fully aware that under Marxist dogma, Socialism at that stage was ludicrous. Even Lenin admitted that without the German Soviet to lead it, Russia was doomed. He was the one dissenting voice who rewrote Marxism to incorporate specifically Russian features and turned against his own side for his own glory. Trotsky, I can't figure out at all, since he only switched from being Lenin's fervent enemy to creating the 'revolution' (actually coup) Lenin took credit for a week before it happened.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

"You are responsible for the predictable consequences of your own actions. You are not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else's actions." Prof. Noam Chomsky

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Blasphemy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:54:44 -0800 (PST)

--- me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : “L. Sicinius Drusus“ <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
> >
> >The State exists to protect the rights of the
> >citizens. Once you get into the “servant“ mentality
> it
> >is only a matter of time until until one group of
> >citizens use thier “servant“ to make themselves the
> >masters of the rest of the citizens.
> >
> Some fascinating circular arguments arise from that.
> It is also possible for a powerful group of citizens
> to provide themselves with state-protected rights to
> negate the same rights for others. Rights, rather
> than freedoms from impostition, always strike me as
> somewhat dangerous. Rights to work safety and wages
> produce howls of protest from employers about their
> rights to collude in producing poverty so there is
> no choice but unsafe conditions with bad pay. Rights
> to work all told produced both protests by those who
> collectively would combine to refuse work to certain
> groups and the criminilisation by Stalin of
> unemployment, allowing again, a good way to
> criminilise dissidents indirectly by refusing to
> employ them.
>
> >It's amusing to watch leftists demanding that
> controls
> >be placed on private companies, which is the
> Economic
> >theory of the facist movement, and branding those
> who
> >oppose the impostion of economic facism as facists.
> >
> Private companies are a relatively recent innovation
> with all the privileges of an individual but none of
> the responsibilities: put your money in one and run
> up whatever debts you like but you won't have to pay
> them. They founded the American colonies and for
> that reason were loathed and licensed very rarely
> under municipal charter and strict public auditing
> for very specific purposses. It is quite strange
> that the USA which now fosters corporate feudalism
> and was the first nation to reduce its government as
> area management for multinational business, owes its
> origin very much to the revolt of Puritan socialism
> going back to the Diggers and Levellers against
> corporate monopoly control of government.
> It's also strange that the commonest European
> experience of the USA is that government interfers
> with personal liberty in a way rarely seen this side
> of Singapore, but that is *State* government, not
> Federal. It is as if the fear of central authority
> were the feudal fear of the King upholding the
> freedoms of individual citizens against local
> grandees trying to legislat what should be a matter
> for personal adherance to particular religions.
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
You just can't resist posting a morass of marxist
psycho babble even after other posters make it plain
that they either consider your ideas foolish or have
no wish to see Macronational politics discussed on
this forum.

If you wish to continue a discussion with me contact
me by private email. If you wish to discuss
Macronational politics in a public forum take it to
another group, or start one of your own.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] (In)Action & Responsibility
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:56:08 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----

pedantic, I take issue with your interpretation of this quotation. 'What thou wilt' means 'what you want' or 'what you intend'. In Elizebethan / Jacobean English (and still technically in modern English, though usage has slipped) 'will' didn't have any particular connotation about time or timescale. 'What you will' doesn't mean 'what you are going to do', nor does it mean 'what you would like to occur over a long period of time'. At the time when Crowley wrote, to say 'do what thou wantst' would have been nonsensical - it would mean 'do what you lack' or 'do what you need to have'. So the quotation clearly can't carry any implied distinction between what one wills and what one wants in the way that you suggest. It means nothing more sophisticated than 'do what you want'.
>
You've missed Crowley's point here. I believe that example was his, if not then a follower's. The timescale is implied in that 'Will' is a 'heavier' intention than 'feel like'. What Thou Wilt, especially in the magickal contexts Crowley moved in, implies always an act of deliberate intention to bring some effect about. The contrast was with its interpretation as 'If it feels good, do it'. 'What thou wilt' may involve periods when it doesn't feel good at all, such as an athlete willing and therefore training to succeed.
I find it interesting to put the emphasis on 'Thou' so that instead of reading it as 'Do what I will', it means each person accepting another's freedom to do as they determine to lead their life but, to quote again "Your freedom to swing a stick ends where my nose begins".
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Reminder
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:30:20 EST

In a message dated 11/3/2002 4:10:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
haase@konoko.net writes:

> http://www.novaroma.org/election/2755/
>
> This can be considered the official listing - it is what will
> be used when writing the edict to call the election, and the
> configuration file for the voting software is generated as a
> by-product of the creation of this page. Therefore, it is
> in the best interests of every candidate to check that you are
> correctly listed there. Names should appear there within a day
> of the declaration of candidacy.
>
> Titus Octavius Pius, scriba curatoris, is maintianing this list.
>

I have to comment that Titus Octavius Pius is doing an excellent job! I am
just overwhelmed by the professionalism I see within Nova Roma. I posted my
declaration of candidacy and it was posted on the website within 20 minutes.
This is excellent work!

G. Modius Athanasius

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