Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Election Reminder
From:	BiggPoppaPump420@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:11:52 EST

YEah I have the same problem. Cassius622 said email Octavius for it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Declaration for Head of the Sodalitas Iuventutis Romanae.
From:	BiggPoppaPump420@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:15:13 EST

Alright. If u need anything at all for me to help email me first.

Gaius Cassius Marius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	Artemisia <artemisiakore@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:13:49 -0800 (PST)

Salve, Festus!

<<The Ten Commandments are on public display in the
United States Supreme Court.>>

I think I recall hearing about that once. I think it's
outrageous. No matter how many people say it or
promote the idea, America is NOT a "christian
country." This country was founded on the idea that
people should have freedom of religion. Again, I am
not bashing all people of the Christian faith, only
those who would be glad to take away my rights of
religious freedom.

<<Unless the "one guy" was in reference to the
individual in California>>

No, who was that? If you want to hear about a really
scary person, go look up Judge Roy Moore. Cross
reference his name with "Ten Commandments" or
"Homosexuality" and see what you come up with. Be sure
to visit all the Religious Right websites that support
him as well.

Vale,
Fabia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	Artemisia <artemisiakore@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:36:20 -0800 (PST)

<<--- me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
Whether it was in the UK or not is *itsself* a
dangerous political question! From here, 'The North',
from there, 'The Province'.>>

I was afraid of that.....apologies.

<<I've yet to hear any justification from Bible Belt
'Christians' that isn't out of the Old Testament so
they're 'really' Jews then?>>

The people that bother me most are the ones who claim
to be "God-fearing Christians" and then slander the
Middle Easterners. Do they really think their religion
came from Europe originally? Yeah, and Jesus was
blonde-haired and blue-eyed.

<<Because it's a lot easier to make god in your own
image and worship your own likeness than to actually
accept some Organisation beyond your own Ego.>>

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.

Vale,
Fabia

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Australian Province
From:	"Mark A. Bird" <msentius@bigpond.net.au>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:12:40 +1100

Vale

Can someone please assist me in finding the yahoo address for the Australian Province. My computer has crashed and I have to set everything up again.

Marcus Sentius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Agreeing to Disagree: Religion discussion Part 2532
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:55:12 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@y...>
wrote:

<some heavy snippage>

> And sometimes, blessed Diana, that is a good thing. I think that
you
> are feeling perhaps too much tension, just by being an observer,
> because several of my opponents in this debate tend to be quite
vocal
> and tend to take things VERY personally.

Religion is something that is very personal. Each and every person
has their own relationship with their concept of the Divine. I am
not a Pagan, but I support the right of anyone else who choses that
path to the Divine to follow that path. I have attended Pagan
ceremonies as a passive observer and surprise, I have yet to find
anything that has offended me in their practices and observances.
I've found that both pagan and monotheists want harmony in their
spiritual lives, a safe world for themselves and their loved ones to
live in, and freedom to worship their conception of the Divine in a
manner that is meaningful and spritually fulfilling. Religion and
spirituality are not like a pair of stretch gloves, one size does not
fit all. Because one size does not fit all, each and every person,
regardless of their religious affiliation tailors a personal
spiritual glove that fits them.

>They have a way of writing
> that over-exagerates what is really taking place here- and I don't
> think that this is a completely unintentional thing. The more
people
> that become convinced that this conversation is somehow dangerous
or
> destructive to Nova Roma (which it isn't), the more people will
> complain.

Whether this catalyst of this conversation was >intended< to be
dangerous or destructive to Nova Roma or not is not the issue. The
issue is whether or not the conversation becomes dangerous or
destructive. If enough people start to feel that is it becoming
dangerous and destructive, regardless of the intent, it has become
dangerous and destructive.

> I would have stopped long ago, but my somewhat determined opponent
> Drusus seems to want this to continue, or he wouldn't continually
> post provocative letters. Even when he doesn't say my name, I can
see
> the insults, as can the mass of the people who write to me in
private
> consoling me about it and encouraging me to continue on.
>
> If Drusus and his faction would let my opinion be my opinion, and
> drop this, then so would I.

You have it completely in your power to stop anytime you so wish.
I'm absolutely certain that not one of "the mass of people who write
to me" is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to continue. As
for the "masses" who write you, at the risk of sounding like my
mother, "I suppose if everyone told you to jump head first into an
empty swimming pool, you'd do it?"

I have not always agreed with Drusus in the past, I will probably not
always agree with him in the future, but I respect him for his
internal consistancy in his political and social philosophy, have
found him to be a man of his word, a man of well thought out logic,
as well as a man of integrity. If that makes me a part of "his
faction" then it is a faction I am proud to be a part.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	"Brighn $Paul Kershaw$" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 22:05:00 -0500

Salve, Fabia:

In reference to the fellow in California I mentioned, his name is Michael Newdow. He sued (with the ACLU) on behalf of his daughter. http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/pledge2.htm has a write-up on the court case and the Federal government's reaction to it.

It was a sad day indeed for religious tolerance, to see the huffing and puffing our Federal representatives over two little words.

-- Festus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Declaration of Candidacy for Consul
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:14:36 -0600

T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus Romae Novae SPD

I stand before you once again clad in the toga candida, asking you to
help me ascend yet another rung on the cursus honorum. I have served
the Res Publica as one of Her first rogatores, and gave sufficient
service to be elevated to the Senate. Forbidden by law from running for
office as a rogator, I spent the next year serving as a scriba to censor
C Marius Merullus and an accensus to consul M Minucius Audens. Last
year, I worked as a tribunus plebis with consul Fl Vedius Germanicus in
order to make our tribuni both more historical and more useful to the
Res Publica. I am currently a Senator and our sole praetor. Though few
of our leges bear my name, I have directly influenced at least a quarter
of the laws in the Tabularium. In short, I am firmly dedicated to
sustaining and improving Nova Roma.

If elected, my primary efforts will be directed toward gens reform, the
blasphemy and sovereignty clauses of the constitution, list moderation
and libel, face-to-face meetings, and the religious duties of consul.

I firmly believe that Nova Roma must legally recognize real families if
She is to grow into something more than just another history-oriented
playground like the SCA. At the same time, our current gens system has
much to offer, and in some cases it has been extremely successful at
building the sense of community that Nova Roma so desperately needs.
Therefore, I will form a committee to examine the issue in order to
craft legislation which will both recognize Roman familiae and further
foster active and worthwhile gentes.

The blasphemy clause of the constitution was born out of a desire to
ensure that the Religio Romana remains the basis upon which Nova Roma
rests, and not to deny any civis the rights of free speech and religious
freedom. Nor was it meant to make anyone feel unwelcome or uneasy. If
elected, I will therefore work to enact a measure along the lines of L
Sicinius Drusus' excellent ideas that rephrases this section of the
constitution and more clearly defines its intent and extent.

The sovereignty clause of the constitution is an incredibly powerful
guarantor of our cives' rights. It is so powerful that it effectively
interferes with any attempt to create a corpus of Nova Roman civil law.
If elected, I will work to very carefully rewrite this section of the
constitution to free our legislators to do their job while
simultaneously establishing firm and clear guides that shall continue to
protect our cives from invasive government.

While the recent controversies to visit the main list have been somewhat
distasteful at times, I do think that the forum has been reasonably well
moderated. However, as has been pointed out more than once, such
moderation opens the Res Publica to the danger of suit over words
written in the heat of the moment. I will research our legal options to
protect ourselves against this eventuality.

While the events that occur in our virtual forum are quite important, it
is our physical meetings that will really allow us to grow into a true
nation. I will seek at every turn to challenge and enable our
propraetores to hold events and build a sense of community within their
provinciae.

Last, and by no means least, I will work with the Collegium Pontificum
to ensure that every religious duty of the consules is met. While I do
not have the resources to purchase white heifers or hold grand
processions through the center of Rome, I will endeavor to do everything
that my abilities and resources can bear to meet the religious
obligations of the office I seek.

And, finally, while I hope that you will vote for me, I strongly
encourage you to vote for the candidate that your reason and your
conscience favor. It is your votes that determine Nova Roma's course.
A slight turn at an early stage in the journey can make a huge
difference by the time the ship reaches its destination. Consider your
options well and be sure that your voice is heard.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:23:52 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Its unfortuante that this site is biased. It fails to mention that in reality he had no real grounds for a lawsuit. He did not have custody of his daughter. And his ex-wife is a monotheist and according to the local news they attended Church Regularly (according to Channel 9 news).

No wonder the rest of the country views the 9th circuit court of appeals as a joke. After this case there was serious debate on breaking up the 9th circuit. Lets face some facts, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has the most decisions overturned by the US Supreme Court in comparision to any other Division of the Court of Appeals. (http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/scourt.html)

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Brighn (Paul Kershaw)
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism

Salve, Fabia:

In reference to the fellow in California I mentioned, his name is Michael Newdow. He sued (with the ACLU) on behalf of his daughter. http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/pledge2.htm has a write-up on the court case and the Federal government's reaction to it.

It was a sad day indeed for religious tolerance, to see the huffing and puffing our Federal representatives over two little words.

-- Festus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	"fabia_agoria" <artemisiakore@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:47:17 -0000

<<Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.>>

Having said all that in my last post, I readily relinquish my
soapbox.....

Vale!

Fabia Agoria

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Subject:	Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	Artemisia <artemisiakore@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:13:56 -0800 (PST)

<<--- "Brighn (Paul Kershaw)" <brighn@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In reference to the fellow in California I mentioned,
his name is Michael Newdow. He sued (with the ACLU) on
behalf of his daughter.
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/pledge2.htm has a
write-up on the court case and the Federal
government's reaction to it.>>

Thanks, Festus.

Vale!

Fabia

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Religious Tolerance: Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
From:	"g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 03:47:12 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> No wonder the rest of the country views the 9th circuit court of
appeals as a joke.

I don't think that they are a joke, and neither do my friends. We
love the ninth circuit. They had the bravery to strike the
detestable "under god" words out of our pledge.

Those words don't belong there. This is not a nation under
anyone's "God". This government does not endorse any religion. "God"
is a commonly used and 'loaded-with-judeo-christian connotations'
word in the western world- it clearly implies Jehova/Allah of the
christians and jews and muslims.

I am not christian, jew, or muslim. But I am an American, and proud
to be one- and I pay taxes and I have a constitutional right to not
have to have my children "pledge allegiance" to the monotheist God. I
don't pay for public schools to teach my kids to "pledge allegiance"
to a nation "under god".

It's called seperation of church and state, and it is time that this
country woke up to the reality of it. I love the ninth circuit court
of appeals.

Galus Agorius Taurinus

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Subject:	Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:14:36 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

The "under God" wasn't even part of the original
pledge. These words were added in 1956 to show the USA
was different than the Athest USSR. They are a protest
against a state that no longer exists.

The 9th's decession is a short term gain for sepration
of church and state and a long term disaster. There is
allmost zero chance that the US Supreme Court will
uphold the 9th, and in the meantime it has given the
fundementalists a new rallying point, and one that is
so popular that mainstream politicans that would
normally shun them are in agreement with them.

The option still remains from a 1943 US Supreme Court
decession. The Jehovah Witnesses consider the Pledge
and saluting the Flag to be "Idol Worshipping" and
they bought a suit against manditory participatian in
the ceremony. The Court ruled that no student can be
forced to take part.

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Its unfortuante that this site is biased. It fails
> to mention that in reality he had no real grounds
> for a lawsuit. He did not have custody of his
> daughter. And his ex-wife is a monotheist and
> according to the local news they attended Church
> Regularly (according to Channel 9 news).
>
> No wonder the rest of the country views the 9th
> circuit court of appeals as a joke. After this case
> there was serious debate on breaking up the 9th
> circuit. Lets face some facts, the 9th Circuit
> Court of Appeals has the most decisions overturned
> by the US Supreme Court in comparision to any other
> Division of the Court of Appeals.
>
(http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/scourt.html)
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brighn (Paul Kershaw)
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:05 PM
> Subject: Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma]
> Polytheism and Monotheism
>
>
> Salve, Fabia:
>
> In reference to the fellow in California I
> mentioned, his name is Michael Newdow. He sued (with
> the ACLU) on behalf of his daughter.
> http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/pledge2.htm has a
> write-up on the court case and the Federal
> government's reaction to it.
>
> It was a sad day indeed for religious tolerance,
> to see the huffing and puffing our Federal
> representatives over two little words.
>
> -- Festus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: OT comment on: Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	"Brighn $Paul Kershaw$" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 00:20:11 -0500

Salvete,

Drusus writes:
"The "under God" wasn't even part of the original
pledge. These words were added in 1956 to show the USA
was different than the Athest USSR."

The irony of this is that the original Pledge was written by a Socialist who left his church and, according to family reports, lived the remainder of his life bitter about organized religion. So the words "under God" don't just show a disregard for the First Amendment, they show a disrespect for the author of the original piece.

On the other hand, while I feel that "Under God" should be removed from the "official, legal" Pledge (at least as mandatory), and "In God We Trust" should be removed from the money, I agree with Drusus' implication that some battles aren't worth the social fall-out of fighting them. Before the Ninth Court's decision was made public, I lived in a naive world where I felt that, had the topic come up, some of our representatives in the Senate might agree that the words were in violation, or at least be somewhat indifferent to the topic. Within hours of the Court's decision, the Senate had voted, 99-0 (Sen. Helms was out that day, and would almost certainly have made the vote 100-0), to express their opinion that the Ninth District was wrong. Economic problems, terrorism problems, environmental problems... the entire activity of the Senate floor came to a screaching halt for this Dire Emergency. The overbearing histrionics of the Congressional Record over something that seemed so relatively minor -- how many adult Americans SAY the Pledge more than once a year, after all? -- woke me up to the depth of the religious fever that still exists.

When mosques are being vandalized because of 9/11/01, gays are being killed because of intolerant Paulist interpretations, Catholic priests are being ridiculed because of the actions of a few perverts, parents are losing custody of their children because of lifestyle choices others disagree with... all on U.S. soil, while it seems so very logical and obvious to me that "under God" has no place in the Federal government, some battles are just more important than others.

It still disturbs me that one of the most widely mocked quotable quote of the last decade or so was also the most poignant and wise: "Why can't we all just get along?" (Rodney King)

Ok. Enough histrionics. This was supposed to be a short post, but it's a topic I get passionate about. =)

Valete,
Festus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Candidiacy for Tribunus Plebis
From:	Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:40:39 -0800 (PST)

I am announcing my Candidiacy for Tribunus Plebis
Gaius Geminius Germanius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] *VENATIONES* 1st day!!!!!
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:29:38 -0800 (PST)

LET THE VENATIONES COMMENCE!!!

Welcome, live from the Circus Flaminius, Home of the
Ludi Plebei from Antiquita Roma to Nova Roma....

Roma Aeterna Est!!!

I am your commentator,Dippea Magna, bringing you
live and up to date coverage of these fabulous games,
courtesy of Musarum Television Network.

It may be noted that the beautiful and successful
owner and foundress of this network, Aeterna
Cornelia, affectionately known around the world as
TINK, has taken to participation in these games, in
another episode...something to look forward too,
folks; we shall see if this beautiful business icon is
as successful in choosing and sponsoring a venator as
she is in running the largest television network
here in Nova Roma!!

As an added bonus, the participating Gymnasiums have
donated $25,000......yes......$25,000 Sestertii to
be divided amongst the winners of these spectacles.

Let us go now to the opening parade.....many scriba,
servants, dancing girls parade around the officials
and celebrants of the Ludi Plebei.

The crowd is unrelenting in their cheers....you can
'feel' the ecstacy, and 'taste' the exitement in the
air!!!!!

A model of the Pantheon is being placed in the
center of the circus, with members of the Collegium
Pontificium in attendance.

Now, statues of Gn Pompeius Magnus and Marcus Lucinius
Crassus are being carefully presented to the centre
of the Circus Flaminius. History tells us these two
consuls restored power to the Tribunii Plebis way
back in 70 BCE.

Flowers are being thrown, the smell of incense
abounds!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH THE CROWD GOES
WILD!

THE GUESTS OF HONOUR HAVE ARRIVED!!

The hosts of this wonderful game, the Plebian
Aediles have arrived: Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
and
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, adorned in white
togas trimmed in gold, with gold caligae......they
look
wonderful. The two wave to a crowd responding in
unrelenting cheers.....AVE!!!!!!

THE TRIBUNES ARE BEING SUNG IN BY A CHORUS OF LATIN
HYMNS OF PRAISE TO THE GODS FOR THE MAGNIFICENT MEN
WHO PROTECT AND DEFEND THE PEOPLE OF ROME!!

Gnaeus Salix Astur
Salix Davianus
Manius Constantius Limitanus
Lucius Mauricius Procopius
Marcus Arminius Maior

These illustrious officials take their place along
side the Senate and Consuls of Rome.

At this moment, the crowd, knowing a solemn moment
is soon to start, is quieting a bit.......the Pontifex
Maximus raises his arms to the crowd.

It is time for the Offering to the Gods prayers of
praise, gratitude and the best for the future are
about to be offered...........

The National Anthem of Nova Roma is being sung by
the Back Alley Boys.

Followed by an Offering of appreciation of the Plebs
by the popular Spice Amicae, who are about to sing
their own version of an old 'motown favourite' of
all things:

NOTHING YOU CAN DO CAN MAKE ME UNTRUUUUUEEE TO MY
PLEB (my pleb))))

NOTHING YOU CAN BUY CAN MAKE ME TELL A LIE TO MY
PLEB (my pleb))))

AS A MATTER OF OPINION I THINK HE'S TOUGH; MY
OPINION IS HE'S THE CREAM OF THE CROP.......AS A
MATTER OF *TASTE* TO BE *EXACT*, HE'S MY FINE DEAR AS
A MATTER OF FACT!

NOOOOOOOO RICH PATRICIAN MAN CAN EVER TAKE THE PLACE
OF MY PLEBBBBBB (my pleb))))

NO HANDSOME GLAD COULD EVER TAKE THE PLACE OF MY
PLEBBB (my pleb)))).....oooh yeah......

.....one of the singing girlies rushes up to Tribune
Procopius and gives him a BIG HUG......the crowd
goes wild...

AND PROCOPIUS DOESN'T SEEM TO BE HAVING A BAD TIME
OF IT EITHER!!!

88888888888888888888888888888888888888

AND NOW.......THE COMBATS!!!!

Our First Entry......is citizen
ARTORIUS ARIUS SARMATICUS, a winner of a past
contest, who spent $1500 sestertii to introduce his
fighter into the Ludus Tauriscum. He has a tidy sum
of
$6,833 to play with!!

His Venator: The ever popular VICTOR OF NUMIDIA,
who is remembered for his defeat of a rhinocerus at
the
Ludi Apollonares. Victor presents with a strength of
49 and a Resistance of 35.

Let's see how he does with his beast competitor...a
TIGER .....caught in Syria, with a strength of 42
and a resistance of 34. This tiger has an extra stripe
in his hide, so to speak, in that he has killed a man
in previous combat.

The combat ensues........

Victor is armed with a net and a pilum......the
tiger growls and stays stationery.

Quickly Victor wields his net and catches a paw of
the tiger, snagging him....

Victor resistance 33, our Tiger, resistance 24

Victor proceeds to tug at the net, as he knows the
Tigers left front limb is caught, snagged in the
net, Victor pulls, weakening the tiger, who is
struggling to release himself..

Victor resistance 31, our Beast resistance 15

Victor grabs his pilum and with an easy aim and
throw, lands the pilum in back of the tiger

Victor resistance 30 and the Tiger 3

The beast appears to be gasping for breath. With a
couple of tugs of the net, and the fate of having a
pilum in his chest cavity, the beast is no more.

Victor resistance 30, our Tiger...0

VICTOR VICTORIUS!!!

AS IS ARTORIUS!!

HEY THAT RHYMES....WHY THE HECK DIDN'T I ENTER THE
EPIGRAM CONTEST??????

??????????????????????????????

Our Second Combat.......

OUT COMES........OH WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT FOR
THIS CROWD TO SETTLE DOWN.....IT IS THE GOVERNOR OF
ITALIA FRANCISCUS APULUS CAESAR.....

Ahh, the fans and citizens love the Italian
Propraetor, the 'geographic' host of these games!!!

He has entered the ludi once again, a victor in the
past many times over......you have to love the
shades and the Pepsodente smile of this illustrious
magistrate.

He has entered his fighter at a cost of $2500
sestertii and has $6,333 to spare...where does
Apulus get all this money???

His Fighter, from the Ludus Matutinus, Aurum from
Baetica, has killed a buffalo in the past, and has a
strength of 47 and a resistance of 35.

He is one big fella, weighing in at 492 LB.

He fights today an elephant from Africa, with a
strength of 20 and a resistance of 62.

He has also opened up a fast food chain, called
Garum of Aurum, and sells french fries with Garum like
there is no tomorrow....and making a
killing...something
'in' that garum, people say...there must be when you
see crowds of people lined up in their chariots to
'drive through' for FF and G......hmmm......

How do people get 'fished' into these gimmicks????
the suckers!!! (LOL)!!!!

The action begins....

Our elephant prances out and lets a screech out of
him.....oh, no....cheap trick.....Aurum places a
heafty heeping helpin' of French Fries and Garum
across the arena.......the elephant ventures toward
the feast.......our fighter runs toward the beast
and vigorously pulls his tale, while assuming a
defensive stance with a ball and chain and a
gladius.....

Ouch!! Aurum resistance 33, and the elephant (the
stupid elephant), a resistance of 50

This made our beast a bit upset, who has turned
around to challenge our fighter, only to get his snout
smacked with a heavy ball and chain with a
formidable swing behind it....

Aurum, resistance 30 and our elephant 41

Another blow with the ball.....

Aurum resistance 30 and the elephant 26.....

Another......

Our fighter resistance 28 and the elephant 15....

Our fighter appears to have damaged his arm...let's
hope not too much......

The elephant is stunned......the ball or the
garum????
Aurum tugs on the beast's trunk, and at this point
the elephant is failing fast.....

Our fighter a resistance of 27 and our beast 1.

Aurum completes the encounter with a thrust of the
gladius into the beast.....the elephant has
succumbed.

AURUM IS VICTORIOSUS.......Let's hope there is no FF
and G Vendor at this contest today....please?????

Our Provincia Italia Propraetor rejoices with his
amicii in his private viewing area.......

The third and final contest of the day.......

Our entry is made by a frequent participant of
Ludi....Salix Galacus.....another winner of past
Ludi.

He has spent $2,000 sestertii to enter his fighter
into the Ludus Leontirum, but fear not, he has
17,666 to spare!!!

AND HE MAY NEED IT!!

His fighter, Astacius of Hispania, who has killed a
bear in the past, endeavors to fight two Panthers
caught in Aegyptus.....

The Venator Astacius has a strength of 31 and a
resistance of 34.

Panther one,a female, has a strength of 32 and a
resistance of 39

Panther two, a male, has a strength of 30 and a
resistance of 33.

The fighting (suicide?) continues

(I don't want to look)

Our Feline female has taken quite a shine to our
venator, by lunging immediately toward him, and in
her attempt to give "affection", renders him a
blood-drawing swipe across the face. A tad 'catty'
isn't she? Papa, a bit jealous perhaps, joins the
fun, but doesn't connect like the female did

Astacius resistance 26, Panther female resistance
33, and Panther male, resistance 24

This time, our male panther swipes at our fighter's
face and proceeds to bite his right upper arm.
Astacius normally wields his net and gladius more
acutely, but in this game, the beasts were just too
quick to make their first move. The female is
mauling Astacius.....

Astacius resistance 14, the female a resistance of
30, and the male a resistance of 24.

The mauling and the lack of fighting agility of the
venator continues:

Astacius resistance 10, the female, resistance 29
and the male panther a resistance of 13.

Astacius manages to thrust his gladius into the
male, which mildly connects with the beast to make him
even more angry with our venator....the female's anger
is increasing.....the male is on top of Astacius, and
the female bites our Venator in the midrift...

Astacius resistance 6, mama, resistance 29, and
papa, resistance 32 :(

Astacius with all but depleted strength, manages to
remove the gladius from the male panther, and stabs
him again......he seems to have hit the
bullseye.....the male panther is dead......

Astacius, unable to move, and showing alot of blood
loss, and signs of acute shock......dies....

THE FELINE MATRONA IS THE VICTRIX WITH A RESISTANCE
OF 25.

It is always a sad day when our Venators do not win,
but this was a contest clearly against all odds, and
I am sure Astacius knew that this might happen.

The feline unpredictibility and swiftness is a
formidable weapon in itself, as unfortunately, we
have witnessed today...

May he be safely journeyed across the River
Styx.....

And that is the action for today, and this ends our
live coverage of the Ludi Plebei of 2755 AUC

FOR THE MUSARUM TELEVISION NETWORK, I BID YOU AVE!!

=====
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Italiae
Dominus Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressus
Scriba Aedilis Plebis Cicatricis
Scriba Translationum Primus Academiae Thules
-----------------------------
AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] about LEX IVDICIARIA
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:32:25 -0800 (PST)

AVE OPTIME GNAEE SALIX ASTVR

You work seems very good to me. Thank you!
Now, just a few thoughts:

1-As you know in ancient Rome commercial justice was
administered by the Curule Aediles. Given that our
Constitution states that also the Curule Aediles have
the power and obligation to administer the law,
perhaps commercial justice should fall under their
tasks. By "commercial" I mean marketplaces like world
wide web based businesses operated by members of the
Ordo Equester, businesses operating at sponsored Nova
Roma events, and any other business activity carried
out with express knowledge that Nova Roma citizens are
involved, whether by Nova Roma citizens or by
associates who knowingly do business with Nova Roma.
Your proposed law could define that commercial justice
doesn't falls under the Praetors' competence
(paragraph II.a).
I studied the office of the Curule Aediles in the
Republic, and I have a raher clear idea of the means
these magistrates used to administer commercial
justice. I think I would be able to write a draft for
a specific law dealing with this matter.

2- In paragraph VI you mention three sources, but then
I read only two: Lex and Iurisprudentia.

3- In paragraph XV you give the iudices the
opportunity to give two judgements: Absolvo or
Condemno, but in ancient Rome there was also "non
liquet" when they deemed the case unclear. perhaps it
would be right to put this option in our judicial
system too?

4- In paragraph XVII A. you propose the Multa
Pecuniaria to be paid to the Treasury of Nova Roma.
What if a citizen has to pay a compensation for a
moral or material damage to another citizen? Should he
send money to the Treasury ans the Treasury would pass
money to the second citizen? Or could the citizen send
money directly to the other citizen providing
documents to the Praetor? In this case a small
modification should be done to that paragraph.

That's all, I think! these are my considerations.

BENE VALE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Legatvs Externis Rebvs Provinciae Italiae
Dominvs Praefectvs Sodalitatis Egressvs
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
Scriba Translationvm Academiae Thvles
Scriba Areanae et Sermonis Societatis Ivventvtis
Romanae
-----------------------------------------------------
***VISIT MY WEBSITE***
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
PROVINCIA ITALIA
http://italia.novaroma.org
GENS CONSTANTINIA
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/constantinia-en.html
SOCIETAS IVVENTVTIS ROMANAE
http://www.geocities.com/nr_sir/index.html
***CAESO FABIVS QVINTILIANVS FOR CONSVL***
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus for Praetor
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 08:45:53 -0000

Salvete Cives! I stand before you in the toga candida to announce my
candidacy for the office of PRAETOR. I am not a stranger to the
office, or to our system. I have been involved in Nova Roman politics
since before the official Founding of Nova Roma. I am a Founding
Senator of Nova Roma, the only one remaining besides Marcus Cassius
Iulianus. I was the first Praetor of Nova Roma (then called Praetor
Urbanus), and held this office from the Founding through 31 December
2751 (1998). When Flavius Vedius Germanicus resigned the first time
in September of that year, the senate appointed me to take his place
as Censor, which I held until 31 December 2752 (1999). I was elected
Consul for the year 2752 along with Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus. When
Flavius Vedius Germanicus was appointed Dictator by the senate in
July of 2752, he retroactively declared those elections null and
void. I was then appointed by dictatorial edict to remain in the
office of consul. At the end of that year I ran for Curator Differum
and held that office for the year 2753 (2000). Since then I have not
sought elected office but continued to serve as Senator, Lictor,
scriba and accensus. I ask you now to return me to the Curule Chair
and put my experience back to work in service to the Republic.

I am well suited for this position as much of our legal
system bears my imprint; few in Nova Roma understand our political
system as well as I do. I was closely involved in the creation of the
final drafts of the first Nova Roman Constitution, assisting Flavius
Vedius Germanicus to sharpen that document, rewriting and revising
sections where needed. During the dictatorship I was instrumental in
assisting the Dictator in completely rewriting the Constitution, as
well as aided him with the system of laws he put into place. After
the dictatorship, as sole consul, and then with my co-consul Lucius
Cornelius Sulla Felix, I promulgated a series of laws to continue the
work of making our system function. I am proud to say it has worked
well ever since. Since my consulship, I assisted magistrates in the
creation of laws, some of which have borne my name. No one except
Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Lucius Corneleius Sulla Felix have
their names on more laws than I do. I was a key collaborator in
creating many other laws in the tabularium--over 25%. I look forward
this coming year to continuing the ongoing work of establishing a
functional Nova Roman legal system.

I will also serve well in the praetor's role as moderator. While I am
moderate to slightly conservative politically, I am evenhanded and am
thought of as fair by people of all political stripes in Nova Roma. I
have never taken part in the "personal" politics that have
unfortunately become a feature of our system. I think this reputation
and the ability to remain above the fray will be an asset as
moderator. I will not be afraid to delegate authority as needed to
ensure there is list coverage and I will keep in mind that freedom of
speech is paramount, as long as the safety of the Republic is not
threatened. I will use as light a touch as possible to moderate
discussion.

I ask you to allow me to put my experience to work and continue my
service to the Republic as your next praetor.

Valete,

In Service to Rome,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator Consularis
Candidate for Praetor


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 1
From:	Thomas "H�nzi" <tiberius_ann@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 02:26:31 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

Hier der erste Tag des QUIZ!

Antworten an consulromanus@yahoo.com mit r�mischem
Namen und dem Betreff 'QUIZ'.

Resultate werden jeden Tag auf der Mainlist
ver�ffentlicht!

Hier die Fragen (Keine �bersetzung, da die Antworten
f�r die �berpr�fung auch Englisch sein m�ssen!):

> ***************
>
> 1. Approximately how many legionaries were there in
> one �centuria�?
> - 50
> - 80
> - 100
> - 120
>
> 2. At which battle was Hannibal finally defeated?
> - Cannae
> - Trasimene
> - Zama
> - Trebia
>
> 3. By whom was Rome sacked first?
>
> 4. Fabius Maximus' nickname was?
> - The Destroyer
> - The Delayer
> - The Determinator
> - The Deliverer
>
> 5. How did Titus Manlius Torquatus punish his son?
> - he slapped him across the face
> - he ordered his head cut off
> - he threw him in the Tiber
> - he married him to an ugly woman
>
>
> ***************
>
> Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
> Ancient Rome!!
>
>
> Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO)
Lictor curiatus
Translator linguae Germanicae
Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris
Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 1 / Sorry wrong list
From:	Thomas "H�nzi" <tiberius_ann@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 02:28:57 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

Sorry, but that was the wrong list. It was supposed to
go to nrgermania!!!!

=====
Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO)
Lictor curiatus
Translator linguae Germanicae
Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris
Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] *LAW CASE CONTEST* about Lex Aquila
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 11:15:08 -0000

AVETE OMNES

I have privately been asked for information about the Lex Aquila,
which is mentioned in the cases you have to judge.

Lex Aquila introduced civil liability for willfully/negligently
killing or injuring another man's beast or slave.

In the first case, the barber is shaving a slave, that's why the
issue falls under this Lex.

OPTIME VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
-------------------
VISIT MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] F. APULUS CAESAR FOR CURULE AEDILE
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:53:49 +0100

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

I PROMISE YOU PANEM ET CIRCENSES !!

� http://italia.novaroma.org/fac/index.htm �

What does this mean? It means I can offer you what you want like ancient
roman Magistrates did: growth of Nova Roma and entertainment !

PANEM:
In my opinion the growth of our Res Publica must proceed by engagement in
the academic, historical, reenatcment fields. We have to show Nova Roma as
the most important organization in the world for Classical Culture, able to
create and realize "live" projects. My goals are to continue the jobs of
Quintilianus working on the project of restoration of famous ruins, like the
Temple of Magna Mater and the Library of Herculaneum.
We could do it by contacting the local institutions and the experts about
these subjects, making donations, and having an important role in this
field!
However we have to advertize Nova Roma and we can do it by entering ourself
in the reenactement �lite. My first goal is to organize the 2nd European
Nova Roman Rally in Bologna (Italy - August 2003), inviting all the most
important reenactors and making it like an Ancient Roman live-Forum.

CIRCENSES:
During the last year I have served as Quaestor to our wonderful Curule
Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, the man who has changed the idea of
Magistracy and especially Aedileship. In this period I organized 4 Ludi
within virtual races; movies; cultural, military and fashion contests;
religious events; concerts and shows.
Now I would like to continue my job organizing more big and exciting games
for you all. My goal is to make Nova Roma the most exciting and fun
experience for a lover of Roma. How? First of all I'll increase the sport
event: Ludi Circenses (chariot races), Munera Gladiatoria (gladiatores fight
gladiatores), Venationes (gladiatores against animals), Naumachiae (virtual
naval battles) are a little part of what I can do. And at the end of the
year the most important event: the PROVINCIAL OLYMPIC GAMES !!!
Next, I would like to increase the culture and theatre in our community,
developing better and more movies, organizing cultural contests and maybe
being a bit satirical ;-) The best way to promote the culture and at the
same time to underline our faults is the Satire, just like our ancient
fore-fathers did it!

My last goal is about legal issue. This is a very important point because we
have to start managing our little economy. With my colleague Illustrus
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus (running for Curule Aedile too) and in accordance
with the next Praetor, I would like to improve the juridical and commercial
administration. Following tradition, the Curule Aediles have to check the
commerce of the Res Publica investigating faults, crimes, etc. I'm sure our
commercial citizens in the Macellum are hard-working as well as honest,
however we have to prevent problems and create a fixed juridical and
investigation system.
In the same way, the Curule Aediles have "to ensure order at public
religious events, to see to the maintenance of any real public facilities
that the State should acquire, and to administer the law". In collaboration
with the next Praetor, I would like to create a basis for legal
administration into which the future magistrates could build traditions upon
and where every citizen could ask for justice!

VOTE FRANCISCUS APULUS CAESAR

Vale
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
� VOTE ME AS CURULE AEDILE �
http://italia.novaroma.org/fac/index.htm
-------------------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Quaestor Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Cohors Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus -
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Calendar of the combats
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:58:49 +0100

Salve MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO,

My fighter Latina and I are quite happy that she will be fighting a lion.
After all, they are just very big pussycats, something that we both have a
fondness for :-)
We already have our strategy planned, which is basically to put a little
whipped cream on the arena floor. Like any other cat, the lion will run to
lap up the yummy whipped cream, never seeing Latina coming up behind him and
knocking him out with the hilt of her sword.Easy pickin's!

I am already writing Latina's victory speech;-)
Vale,
Diana & Latina

[>] >Well! We are ready! Now you will find out which animal (or animals?)
your fighter will combat against and when!!!

>>NOVEMBER 6TH -Diana Moravia Aventina
[>] LATINA (str44-res36) will combat against a ravenous LION (str40-
[>] res39) caught in Numidia. Be careful Diana: this nice friend already
[>] ate a fighter during past Venationes, but he is hungry again...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Religious Tolerance: Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
From:	"William Rogers" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:17:17 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@y...>
wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > Avete Omnes,
> >
> I don't think that they are a joke, and neither do my friends. We
> love the ninth circuit. They had the bravery to strike the
> detestable "under god" words out of our pledge.
******If you don't like the words, move to another macronation. The
United States of America was FOUNDED with those words attached on
almost all initial founding documentation. I have not delved into
this discussion, and I hesitate to do so now. The United States of
America was NOT founded as a Democracy, and it is NOT a Democracy
today. It is a REPUBLIC. A REPUBLIC rules based upon what the
MAJORITY has decided as their lifestandards and biases. It does NOT
make it right, it just makes it law.

And Sulla was right, over 60 percent of all state governments and the
federal government considers the 9th district a joke. A bad joke, but
a joke. ALL decisions they now make are AUTOMATICALLY reviewed by a
member of the SUpreme Court now...the ONLY district to suffer that
indignity I might add. (It's nice to know an intern there)

Now if the 9th district actually FOLLOWED the COnstitution and
stopped placing their personal views in there, I am sure they would
be considered less of a joke. But when a member of that court spoke
openly last year about how they intend to "update" the constitution
on their own, it SHOULD scare you. A lot. What is to stop them from
deciding you can no longer smoke in YOUR home? What is to stop them
from deciding you cannot kiss your mate in your home? The U.S.
Constitution, that's what!

>
> Those words don't belong there. This is not a nation under
anyone's "God". This government does not endorse any religion. "God"
is a commonly used and 'loaded-with-judeo-christian connotations'
word in the western world- it clearly implies Jehova/Allah of the
christians and jews and muslims.
*****You need to go back and read what George Washington, James
Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and others
wrote about the term "In God We Trust." They were not speaking
(ESPECIALLY Jefferson) to a specific "God", they were acknowledging a
supreme being, whom the felt them find a way to create this nation.
Nothing more.

> I am not christian, jew, or muslim. But I am an American, and proud
> to be one- and I pay taxes and I have a constitutional right to not
> have to have my children "pledge allegiance" to the monotheist God.
I don't pay for public schools to teach my kids to "pledge
allegiance" to a nation "under god".
*****What are you afraid of, showing an outward support for the
veterans (like myself) who have been shot at or killed JUST because I
or they wore a specific uniform or flag? If you cannot openly show
support for your government, move. Considering the hundred of
thousands of men and women who have sacrificed and DIED to give you
that pledge, flag, and your freedom, I proudly say it in honor of
them. I don't say it to honor anyone othere than those who have given
all they are for one purpose...so I can have the RIGHT to express
myself openly, and not sue someone every time I am "offended" by
three words.

Welcome to America....the land where the desires of a few are
opressing the will of the majority.

I humbly apologize to everyone in advance, as I am sure someone SHALL
be offended, even though it was not my intent. May you be blessed,
and have a wonderful day.

Publius T. Rufus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Declaration of Candidacy: Praetor
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:23:26 +0100 (CET)

Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

I hereby declare my intention to run for the praetorship in this year's
elections.

Having worked to create a judicial system legislative proposal, I think
that it is logical to continue working on the establishment of a
serious judicial system in Nova Roma.

I think that we all agree in that such a system is necessary, both to
avoid the kind of problems that we have suffered in the past as to
further advance in our way towards a full nation.

As such, I promise to work hard on the establishment of such a system
if I am elected. It is my intention to create a group of legal experts
to discuss Nova Roma's necessities in the judicial field and the
possible solutions, keeping always in mind Nova Roma's compromise with
the recreation of the Roman past.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Hispaniae
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: F. APULUS CAESAR FOR CURULE AEDILE
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:29:10 -0000

>
> VOTE FRANCISCUS APULUS CAESAR
>
> Vale
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> -------------------------------------------
> � VOTE ME AS CURULE AEDILE �
> http://italia.novaroma.org/fac/index.htm
> -------------------------------------------
> Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
> Quaestor Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus
> Scriba Curatoris Araneum
> -------------------------------------------
> Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
> Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
> Cohors Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus -
> http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis
> Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
> Yahoo Messanger: fapulus

Salve,
Franciscus Apulus Caesar

Welcome to the race. Nova Roma is honored by your addition as a
choice for Curule Aedile. Should we both be awarded by the voters,
know that Nova Roma will assuredly grow and prosper.

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius Epulone

For Curule Aedile
" Ludi in every Province "


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: *VENATIONES* 1st day!!!!!
From:	"Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@inicia.es>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 15:00:33 -0000

> His fighter, Astacius of Hispania, who has killed a
> bear in the past, endeavors to fight two Panthers
> caught in Aegyptus.....
>
> Astacius, unable to move, and showing alot of blood
> loss, and signs of acute shock......dies....
>
> THE FELINE MATRONA IS THE VICTRIX WITH A RESISTANCE
> OF 25.
>
>
Two panthers against my nice Astacius? This is an abuse! My good
venator, he was so sensitive... sigh, so there is no who saves
money :-)

Salix Galaicus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religious Tolerance: Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:55:22 -0500

Salve,

(Quotes are from Rufus except where indicated)

"The United States of America was FOUNDED with those words attached on
almost all initial founding documentation."

Provide documentation that the words "Under God" appear on any government
documentation before the 1950s.

"It is a REPUBLIC. A REPUBLIC rules based upon what the MAJORITY has decided
as their lifestandards and biases. It does NOT make it right, it just makes
it law."

Yes, and the majority at the time agreed that one immutable right of every
American citizen is the right to worship as they see fit without government
pressure. That's not a malleable right, that's a right that was put in the
Constitution for posterity.

"You need to go back and read what George Washington, James Madison, Thomas
Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and others wrote about the term 'In
God We Trust.'"

By all means, provide some of their quotes. That specific phrase is
generally traced back to Francis Scott Key's poem, "The Star-Spangled
Banner," written during the war of 1812 ("In God is our trust," fourth
stanza: http://www.treefort.org/~rgrogan/web/usa1.htm), and framed in the
current version just prior to the Civil War (and so admits our own
government,
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html).
Franklin and Washington were both dead by the War of 1812, and all of them
were dead by the Civil War, so I'd be interested in seeing what they had to
say about that specific phrase.

The Declaration of Independence refers to "the God of Nature" and "the
Creator," so I disagree with your claim that Jefferson was referring to a
specific God. He *was*, as you yourself say in the same paragraph:

"they were acknowledging a supreme being, whom the felt them find a way to
create this nation."

This is further supported by "Annuit Coeptis" ("Providence, favor our
undertakings" [http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/coeptis.html]) on the Great
Seal, and Thomas Paine's paean, "The Liberty Tree"
(http://www.thomaspaine.org/archive/tree.html).

But the "God" in Founding Father writings and the "God" in "Under God" and
"In God We Trust" simply isn't the same God. In Rev. Watkinson's letter to
Salmon Chase to put "In God We Trust" on American currency (op cit), he
writes: "I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our
coins. You are probably a Christian." If there is a clearer indication of
the intent of the coiner of the phrase as to what he meant by "God," I don't
know what it would be: The "God" of "In God We Trust" is YHWH.

Jefferson's fault in this issue was his own arrogance that he could redefine
a common word by usage alone and have that change stick. He called himself a
Christian, but clearly wrote that people who go to church on Sundays are not
proper Christians. He wrote of "the God of Nature" assuming people would
understand the distinction between that and the Judeo-Christian "God," and
while many of his contemporaries did, most people today don't.

As to the Constitution of the United States, reference to God, the Lord,
etc., appears only once: In the datestamp at the bottom, in the then-rote
phrase, "In the year of our Lord."

"What are you afraid of, showing an outward support for the veterans (like
myself) who have been shot at or killed JUST because I or they wore a
specific uniform or flag? If you cannot openly show support for your
government, move."

This is a histrionic irrelevancy. Newdew and his supporters (like me) want
to feel COMFORTABLE saying the Pledge and otherwise supporting the
government. I respect our nation's veterans, and would like to be able to
support them without being reminded that, as a non-monotheist, I'm a
second-class citizen. Atheists and polytheists have died defending the
United States, too.

"so I can have the RIGHT to express myself openly, and not sue someone every
time I am "offended" by three words."

(Two words.) So if by some series of civil events, the majority religion
became Satanism and the words were changed to "under Satan," you'd support
that fully?

"Welcome to America....the land where the desires of a few are opressing the
will of the majority."

More histrionics. The Constitution provides that it can be voted out of
existence. If the majority is unhappy with the First Amendment, they can
vote to amend it, or to get rid of the Constitution entirely. It may be the
desire of a few, but it's the will of the majority that those few be allowed
to express their opinions.

-- Publius V. S. Festus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gaius Modius Athanasius for TRIBUNUS PLEBIS
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 07:27:07 -0800 (PST)

I would like to formally endorse Gaius Modius Athanasius for Tribunus Plebis.

I have only known him for a short time, but I find that he is a well tempered man of his word. In my mind, he will serve the Roman People well.

Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Declaration of Candidacy: Praetor
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 16:09:10 -0000

Gnaeus Salix Astur writes:

> I hereby declare my intention to run for the praetorship in this
> year's elections.

Congratulations! I shall be pleased to vote for you.

-- Marinus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gnaeus Equitius Marinus for Curule Aedile in 2756 a.u.c.
From:	equitius_marinus@yahoo.com
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:15:46 -0500

Salvete Quirites!

Wearing my white toga candida, I stand before you today, and ask that
you elect me Curule Aedile of Nova Roma for the coming year, 2756
a.u.c.

If elected, I will continue the high standard of Curule Aediliship
established by my predecessor, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus. I will
bring you Ludi to delight, amaze, and amuse you. I will work closely
in concert with my co-candidate, Franciscus Apulus Caesar to raise
even higher the expectations Nova Romans have of their games and
religious festivals.

Our three point plan for this upcoming year:

1. Further growth of Nova Roma through face to face meetings,
including reenactment events and archeological projects.

2. Ludi more entertaining than even those we've seen this year!

3. Expansion of the jurisdictional and commercial administration
functions which are properly part of the Curule Aedile's duties
according to the practices of antiquity.

I give you my solemn word that I will serve the full term of my
office, barring death or disaster. I will not, of my own free will,
resign my office until the end of the year when it is time for
me to account for my full year's service before the Senate and
the People of Nova Roma. Additionally, I give you my word that
if elected to the Curule Aediliship in 2756 I will not run for
any magistracy for 2757, following the example of our forebearers
from Roma Antiqua.

I've been a citizen of Nova Roma since June of 2754. From the very
beginning I've been active in the Sodalitas Militarium, working
closely with the Praefectus of the Militarium, Senator Marcus
Minucius Audens. I've also been a participating member of the
Sodalitas Musarum, and a quiet observer in a number of other
sodalites. I'm active in NovaRomaLaws, where I'm currently
involved with the effort to revise the unfortunately ambiguous
blasphemy clause in our constitution.

For the past year I've been an active member of the Cohors Aedilis of
Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus. I am the Scriba
Aedilis Iuridicalis Primus to our current Senior Curule Aedile,
responsible for advising him on matters of law. I was closely involved
in the drafting of Quintilianus' legal edicta covering Investigation of
Charges & Complaints, Law Enforcement and Prosecution, and Fair
Business Practices. If elected, I will continue to exercise these
edicta, and keep the Curule Aedile's office a proactive magistracy
dedicated to the protection of the peace in the open forums and
marketplaces of our republic.

I am the quiet side of the Caesar/Marinus team. Together with the rest
of the wonderful Cohors Aedilis, Franciscus Apulus Caesar and I are
justifiably proud of this year's accomplishments under the leadership
of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus. Caesar is the flamboyant one, and I
endorse him heartily. We will give you bread and circuses, but we will
also give you firm and certain leadership, good laws, and good
governance.

A 'vir militaris', I retired from the US Marine Corps in 1995 after 22
years service. I currently work in space based astronomy in Baltimore
Maryland USA, where I am the senior mission planner for a flight
operations team and an adjunct professor of physics and astronomy.

On November 21st of this year, I'll celebrate my 30th anniversary of
marriage. In those 30 years my wife Paula and I have raised two
daughters, and we have recently become grandparents.

Each of you can only vote for one of us. Caesar will have strong
support among his European friends and associates. I would ask my
American friends and associates especially to vote for me.

You may read about me, and my plans for the upcoming year, at my
campaign website: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne/marinus.html

Bene Valete in pace deorum,

Gnaeus Equitius Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A. Hirtius Helveticus for Rogator
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:43:10 +0100 (CET)

Aulus Hirtius Helveticus Quiritibus S.P.D.

After a long and serious period of consideration and
discussion within my home province, I hereby humbly
declare my candidacy for the position of Rogator for
the year 2576 a.u.c.

I have been a citizen of Nova Roma now for some 8
months during which I mainly took an active part in my
provincia (Germania). On top of that I am a member of
the Sodalitas Militarium and I follow the main list
actively.

In my daily life I am a doctorate student of history
(modern economic and social history) with an M.A. in
History and Mass Media Science. But I am also - as you
may have guessed - very interested in Roman military
history.

As a macronational citizen of a state with a long
tradition of direct democracy (Switzerland) I am very
aware of the importance of votes and elections for a
functioning system. I therefore pledge to you,
Quirites, the following things:

- I will follow strictly our nations legislation.
- I will ensure that every vote will be counted.
- I will do everything that is in my power to backup
our Res Publica.

I thank you for your time and ask you, my fellow
citizens, for your support.

Salodurum, Non. Novembras MMDCCLV a.u.c.

Curate ut valeatis,
NOVA ROMA VICTOR!

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------

__________________________________________________________________

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] OT: 9th Circuit Court of Appeals
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:51:05 -0800 (PST)

I would have respected Michael Newdow far more, if he
had been honest enough to admit that he was filing
suit against the words 'under God' in the US pledge of
allegiance on his OWN behalf, rather than lying and
saying that he was doing it on behalf of his daughter.

If I recall correctly, Madeleine Murray O'Hare did the
same sort of thing--raised a ruckus against prayer in
schools for her child, who eventually became a
Baptist. I don't approve of enforced prayer in
schools, except for ceremonial occasions, but I object
to a parent stepping in and claiming offense for a
child who couldn't care less about the issue.

I will respect people like this more when they admit
to having their own agendas from the start and stop
using their children as political pawns.

Anybody who wants to chat about this with me, please
feel free to email me privately; I won't clutter the
list with anything more from me on this topic.

---
Renata Corva

=====
Chantal
http://www.4dw.net/aerden/theran/theranweyr.html

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] OT: 9th Circuit Court of Appeals
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 12:06:27 -0500

"I will respect people like this more when they admit
to having their own agendas from the start and stop
using their children as political pawns.

Renata Corva"

I'll agree with that in a heartbeat. My understanding was that Newdow was originally going to go after "In God We Trust" on the money on his own behalf, but discovered that he couldn't get sufficient backing from the ACLU, so he went after the "oppressed child" heartstrings. While I agree (to an extent) with Newdow's ends, I certainly don't agree with his tactics. As somebody on this thread already mentioned, "under God" is optional anyway. Children are allowed to skip the entire Pledge, or say the Pledge but stay silent during "under God." My preference would be that the law were changed to make "under God" overtly optional, instead of relying on Court precedent, but that's just my opinion.

Personally, I think that NR's approach is better, and sounder in the long run: Identify the state religion, and put on the citizens the only restriction that they can't blaspheme the state Gods, allowing their private worship to be just that, private. If the United States had codified into the Constitution that it was a monotheist country, overtly, and that while private citizens were free to exercise their own religions (or lack thereof) freely, they were expected to at least recognize the single God in public government-oriented functions, we wouldn't be having the sorts of divisive national debates we're having. The atheists and the polytheists would be disgruntled, but would have to deal with it. (In other words, if I were writing the First Amendment today, I'd take out "regarding the establishment of religion," rewriting to simply: "Congress shall make no law regarding the free exercise of religion.")

-- Festus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] SERAPIO STANDS FOR QUAESTOR
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:25:27 -0700

Salve,

Serapio, you have my full support. Your hard work has not gone un-noticed.
Congrats!

Bene Vale,
Aeternia

-----Original Message-----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
[mailto:mcserapio@yahoo.it]
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:14 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] SERAPIO STANDS FOR QUAESTOR

Citizens of Nova Roma!

A few days ago the Senate of our Republic officially gave me
the
opportunity of going in a new direction, which is the way of
a most
Honorable office of Quaestor.

In reality, it is not a completely a new direction. Many of
you
remember when several months ago, I presented my candidacy
to replace
a Quaestor who resigned his citizenship. You nearly choose
me but I
discovered I was breaking a law by running for that office
at the age
of 20 (the minimum age is 21) and immediately withdrew the
candidacy.

That Quaestor position would have been assigned to Plebeian
Aedile,
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix. That is why before withdrawing
my
candidacy I presented a list of engagements related to his
office but
I withdrew my candidacy. However, given that you had nearly
chosen me
as your Quaestor, I felt the obligation to Nova Romans of
pursuing
those targets just the same.

Do you remember past Ludi Apollinares? Had not I promised to
offer
you the Venationes, the combats between gladiators and wild
animals?
I am sure you still remember them as they were very
successful and
you will see them again during next Ludi for sure!
You also visited the website which was created by me for the
Ludi
Apollinares which will still be used for next Ludi. You can
find it
at:

http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/aediliscicatrix.html

I am collaborating with Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix for the

organization of the Ludi Plebei, with other Venationes and
new games!

Well, that concerned the first part of my purposes as
Quaestor before
withdrawing my candidacy. I also had a second purpose, which
was more
related to the real historical role of Quaestors in ancient
Rome.
They had to deal with financial matters. Our Constitution
says that
the Quaestors "shall have the power and obligation to
administer
those funds that shall be allocated to them ( to the
magistrates they
are assigned ) by the Senate in its annual budget. As you
know our
magistrates have no funds yet so our Quaestors (except those
assigned
to the Consuls who deal with the budget) have no way of
administering
them.
They would, however, definitely have the opportunity of
dealing with
financial matters. Perhaps in the future Nova Roma will
regularly
allocate funds to her magistrates and then our Quaestors
will
administer them. Until that day they must work to create the
right
conditions.

During this period I worked with several citizens within
Provincia
Italia on an innovative project, that is an Aerarium and
type of
Macellum on a provincial basis.We discussed much on this
issue and
found solutions to a series of problems. We finally managed
to create
the following new elements: In a nutshell, Provincia Italia
will
start a series of commercial and financial activities. The
bulk of
the incomes will be used to finance provincial projects such
as
meetings, advertisements, etc. while a percentage will be
sent to the
central Aerarium of Nova Roma. This could be considered as a
trial
for our Republic. Should this model bare fruit, I am sure it
will be
adopted by other provinces.

Now I believe our Quaestors should deal with these kinds of
matters.
They should study and elaborate, thus enabling new ways of
managing
the financial policies for Nova Roma.
We could and should have Quaestors dealing with a specific
area of
finance. Here I mean taxes. Our consular Quaestors already
have done
an amazing job on this issue and we all should thank them
more than
we do. You probably remember that they discussed this matter
with me
in this Forum. We all knew (and still know) that there is
nothing
that cannot be improved and their aim, my aim and our aims
are to
make tax payments easier, faster, and less expensive for
everyone. I
am not speaking of paying fewer taxes since that is not a
Quaestor's
task but rather of paying lower commission fees.

Citizens of Nova Roma, in ancient Rome Quaestors wore a toga
with the
famous purple strip. It meant that their office is not easy
to hold
at all. Our Republic needs people who are competent (like
Sextus
Apollonius Scipio, whose candidacy for Quaestorship is fully

supported by me) and are determined to honor Her with their
time,
efforts and loyalty.
I offer you my varied experience within and outside Nova
Roma,
swearing to dedicate myself to the office of Quaestor with
the same
fervor I have given to my Gens in Provincia Italia,
Sodalitas
Egressus, the North Africa Project, the Nova Roma Land
Project, the
Academia Thules, the Plebeian Aedile's staff as well as many
other
areas of our Republic.

OPTIME OMNES VALETOTE IN PACE DEORVM

MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
*****Candidate for Quaestor*****
Legatvs Externis Rebvs Provinciae Italiae
Dominvs Praefectvs Sodalitatis Egressvs
(Italiae Evropaeqve Orientalis atqve Africae
Septentrionalis)
Scriba Aedilis Plebis Ti.Apo.Cicatricis
Scriba Translationvm Primvs Academiae Thvles
Rector Academiae Italicae
----------------------------------------
>>AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html
>>PROVINCIA ITALIA
http://italia.novaroma.org
>>LVDI PLEBEI
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/plebei.html
>>GENS CONSTANTINIA
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/constantinia-en.html


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	"aarmpa" <regpoli@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 04:39:51 -0000

This discussion is becoming quite tiresome and seems to have no end
in sight. I am going to put my final two cents in it and take a break
from Nova-Roma. Perhaps I need to check out other groups on the net
that concentrate more on Roman History and less on debating on whose
religion is better? But I digress, I take issue with L. Cornelius
Sulla's statement (#4380). "I was under the impression that
Christians hate and/or fear Pagans because they are taught to" Why do
you say that? I have never heard of such a thing. I can't speak for
other Christians but as a Roman Catholic for 36 years I have never
heard a priest say that during a sermon. Several people on this list
have made comments about the Christian faith that couldn't be further
from the truth. Before you post try to research observations if they
are accurate. I know nothing about paganism so I would never presume
to write impressions without a thorough understanding of what I would
want to post. I realize in every religion there are individuals that
pontificate their interpetation of their faith but there is no reason
to generalize. I believe most people of whatever religion are
tolerant of those of different faiths. I'm not going to leave the
group yet but if I see that this discussion doesn't end shortly and
other topics aren't raised I have no choice.

aarmpa

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Endorsement of Manius Constantinus Serapio
From:	"Ianus Minicius Sparsus" <jfernandez50@yahoo.es>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:35:29 -0000

Ave Quirites,

In the last months I have been Quaestor. In the election my rival
candidate was Manius Constantinus Serapio.

I haven't dedicated to my office how it had pleased to me by lack
of
time and I would have resigned if it wasn't worth the trouble to
summon new elections by so short time.

In the next year I will dedicate my time and efforts especially in my
province, Hispania, but before I want to say a thing. I know very
well the work of Serapio, because I have been member of the
Administratio of Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix and Serapio have made a
very good work and I am sure that if he's chosen Quaestor he will
be
a extraordinary Quaestor.

Please, confide in Serapio for the office of Quaestorship in the next
elections: you won't repent it!.

I. Minicius Sparsus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] USA Symbols
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:30:36 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

I See we have a debate over "God" and the USA
Government. Let's see, the Monotheists have two words
in the pledge to the flag. Pagans have a huge statue
of the Goddess Libertas sitting in New York harbor. I
Think we Pagans got the better part of that deal.

The Monotheists have the Ten Commandments in some
courthouses. Most courthouses also have a statue of
the Goddess of Justice, or at the very least the
scales that are her symbol. Again the Pagans have the
better deal.

The Monotheists have "In God we trust" on the money,
while the word "money" is derived from Juno Montea,
the Monotheists have the better deal here.

The Pagans take two out of three and win the Symbol
Series.

Before you start supporting the Atheists over
Monotheistic Symbols in Public, don't forget that the
USA Government also uses many Pagan symbols that are
part of our Roman heiratage. Do you really want to
encourage the Fundementalists to start stripping our
symbols out of public life in an act of vengance?

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] My Apologies
From:	"Gator" <legio_vi@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 05:34:54 -0000

Salve,
My dear friends, I need to apologize for my lack of communication
and activity. As you see, my current wife seems to have run off
with another man, and I am facing a divorce. But now, my life is
free of such distractions and annoyances. The Propraetor of America
Austroccidentalis is back in action to serve the Empire. Feel free
to call upon me if you need anything.

With warmest regards,
Pontius Sejanus Marius
legio_vi@msn.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] USA Symbols
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 12:43:10 -0500

Salve Drusus,

"Before you start supporting the Atheists over
Monotheistic Symbols in Public, don't forget that the
USA Government also uses many Pagan symbols that are
part of our Roman heiratage. Do you really want to
encourage the Fundementalists to start stripping our
symbols out of public life in an act of vengance?"

You raise an excellent point. The issue is also one of truth, though. The most prominant Christian perspective -- and this isn't just Fundamentalists -- is that this is a Christian nation, and that the defence for that is the Christian references in the Founding Fathers' documents. As you point out (and there are many more details than the ones you give), if we could identify a single state religion based on the Founding Fathers and our landmarks, it would be closer to that of Rome than that of Jerusalem.

In addition to the Statue of Liberty, "Annuit Coeptis" and the all-seeing eye on the money (as well as "New World Order" [Novus Ordo Seclorum], possibly a sidewise reference to the Roman Empire as the Old World Order), most Federal buildings have architecture deliberately based on Roman architecture, Washington's monument is an obelisk (an Egyptian marker reserved for Human Gods), Mount Rushmore is the type of memorial normally reserved for quasi-deified ancestors (the Buddha has quite a few similar carvings in his honor), Liberty and (arguably) Mercury have appeared on our coinage, and so forth.

So every time someone insists that this started as a Christian nation, I feel disgust.

But yes, the question is, is it worth suing over? No, probably not. I try to educate when it's worthwhile to do so, and otherwise try to let it go. All the same, I agree with Newdow's ends (albeit not his means), and will share that opinion.

-- Festus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] My Apologies
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:52:38 -0700

Salve,

Welcome back Propraetor, as a member of your provincia I am looking forward
To your posts.

Vale,
R. Cornelia Aeternia

-----Original Message-----
From: Gator [mailto:legio_vi@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:35 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] My Apologies

Salve,
My dear friends, I need to apologize for my lack of
communication
and activity. As you see, my current wife seems to have run
off
with another man, and I am facing a divorce. But now, my
life is
free of such distractions and annoyances. The Propraetor of
America
Austroccidentalis is back in action to serve the Empire.
Feel free
to call upon me if you need anything.

With warmest regards,
Pontius Sejanus Marius
legio_vi@msn.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:39:59 -0800

Avete,

I never made that statement. That was Fabia Agoria. I stated the following:

Sulla: You mean you cannot do that now? And I must say your impression is
not accurate based on my experiences in Nova Roma. Maybe exposure to Nova Roma
will broaden your paradigm.

Please, if you are going to quote my statements please quote them correctly.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: aarmpa
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:39 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Polytheism and Monotheism

This discussion is becoming quite tiresome and seems to have no end
in sight. I am going to put my final two cents in it and take a break
from Nova-Roma. Perhaps I need to check out other groups on the net
that concentrate more on Roman History and less on debating on whose
religion is better? But I digress, I take issue with L. Cornelius
Sulla's statement (#4380). "I was under the impression that
Christians hate and/or fear Pagans because they are taught to" Why do
you say that? I have never heard of such a thing. I can't speak for
other Christians but as a Roman Catholic for 36 years I have never
heard a priest say that during a sermon. Several people on this list
have made comments about the Christian faith that couldn't be further
from the truth. Before you post try to research observations if they
are accurate. I know nothing about paganism so I would never presume
to write impressions without a thorough understanding of what I would
want to post. I realize in every religion there are individuals that
pontificate their interpetation of their faith but there is no reason
to generalize. I believe most people of whatever religion are
tolerant of those of different faiths. I'm not going to leave the
group yet but if I see that this discussion doesn't end shortly and
other topics aren't raised I have no choice.

aarmpa

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Endorsement of Manius Constantinus Serapio
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 18:00:30 -0000

Salve Minici,

Estoy de acuerdo contigo 100%. Voy a ayudar Constantine en su oficina
en el futuro. Como nos dijiste, Manius ha trabajado muy fuerte por
Nova Roma. El es un hombre de accion, no solamente palabras! Muchas
gracias por tu confidencia en Manius y buena suerta con tu trabajo en
NR espana en el futuro!

- Just telling Minici thanks a lot for his confidence and
endorsement for Manius Constantine Serapio -

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

> time and I would have resigned if it wasn't worth the trouble to
> summon new elections by so short time.
>
> In the next year I will dedicate my time and efforts especially in
my
> province, Hispania, but before I want to say a thing. I know very
> well the work of Serapio, because I have been member of the
> Administratio of Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix and Serapio have made
a
> very good work and I am sure that if he's chosen Quaestor he will
> be
> a extraordinary Quaestor.
>
> Please, confide in Serapio for the office of Quaestorship in the
next
> elections: you won't repent it!.
>
>
> I. Minicius Sparsus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (An Open Letter to Publius T. Rufus)
From:	"Numerius Cassius Niger" <menippus@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 18:17:55 -0000

Salve, Publi T. Rufus!

In your last post, you correctly identified the American government
as a Republic; however, you incorrectly defined what a republic is,
and unfortunately this lead to grevious errors in your line of
reasoning. I do not blame you; rather I blame the poor education in
Civics that most Americans receive in public school due to a
combination of local school board prejudices and Federal level
attempts at political indoctrination.
In your definition of what a republic is you state "A REPUBLIC rules
based upon what the MAJORITY has decided as their lifestandards
[sic] and biases." While your definition contains a kernel of truth,
it is imprecise and does not get at the radix of what is the
essential nature of a republic.

Aristotle discussed this in his "Politics"
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%
3A1999.01.0058>. He makes a distinction between mere Democracy
(which is what you define as a Republic) and authentic
Republicanism. Aristotle felt that Democracy was a debased form of
rule by the many due to the fact that the poor, who are usually the
majority, would consistently foment political instability in seeking
a form of socio-economic equality that would stifle individual
economic initiative and free enterprise. Whereas, a Republic has the
quality of "polity" (politeia in the Greek, if memory serves me
right) where the interests of the middle class serve to temper the
conflict between the rich and poor.

Now we fast forward to James Madison, who following the Aristotelian
definition of a Republic, felt that to establish polity in American
government that the rights of the minority would have to be
protected from the effects of majority factions. This inherently
different than the mob rule of Democracy that you confuse with
Republicanism. Instead of relying on a middle class to establish
polity, Madison created what he termed as the "extended republic"
where various interests would control each other through a system of
checks and balances; furthermore, Madison defined the extended
republic as employing elected representatives by the people. By
placing the majority of the power in elected representatives and
officers, Madison felt that the public good would less likely been
sacrificed to the will of the /majority/ [italics mine].

It is only with this information that we can correctly understand
definitions 2a. and 3 of "republic" in the Oxford English Dictionary:

2. a. A state in which the supreme power rests in the people and
their elected representatives or officers, as opposed to one
governed by a king or similar ruler; a commonwealth. Now also
applied loosely to any state which claims this designation.

3. fig. and transf. a. Any community of persons, animals, etc.,
in which there is a certain equality among the members.

As you can see, Rufus, nowhere did your definition of a republic
appear. I would humbly suggest that if you truly are a believer in
the republican spirit, then you should do further study as to what
the true nature of a republic is and then compare and contrast it to
our macronational political situation today.

Cura ut quam rectissime valeas!
N. Cassius Niger


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 13:30:52 -0000

Salvete,

I think Nova Roma has become large enough that we should be more
careful in the accepting of applications. Therefore, I suggest the
following as new procedures.

1. All applicants must be personally contacted by phone and snail
mail in order to verify that the addresses are real, and that the
individuals are who they claim to be.

2. No anonymous email email addresses {yahoo, hotmail, etc} will be
premitted in NR forums unless the actual provider address is listed in
the citizens profile. Yes, this means no more options for keeping the
email address private. In other words, if gcassiusnerva@cs.com is not
visible, then gcassiusnerva@yahoo.com is not permitted.

3. An application processing fee to be paid by the applicant up
front. This will cover the cost of making contact by phone and
verifying the address, as well as discouraging trolls.

G. Cassius Nerva

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Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Nova-Roma]_Blasphemy?=
From:	"=?utf-8?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:07:02 +0200

>
> --- me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From : �L. Sicinius Drusus� <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > >If you aren't a dictator and you think the state is
> > >your servant, you are a fool.
> > >
> > If you aren't a dictator and you expect the State to
> > be your master your Fascist master it is.
>
> "Facism" is a term that has lost any real meaning
> since assorted Leftists have watered it down by using
> it as a generalized attack against any who disagree
> with them.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Spectatus Sicinius Drusus

Yes, I totally agree with you.
Fascism is today a useless word. If somebody speaks about the party and
the philosophy or praxis it had in Italy between 1919 and 1945 it means
really something, otherwise is a simple insult.
And this given I would advise to stop using it: it's verbal abuse.
I don't think any citizen of NR was member of the National Fascist
Party. Being italian myself is a little bit easier to think of fascism:
many vestiges are still visible here. But it is something precise: it
is not anything a communist or a "leftist" dislike.
Moreover, the relation between FAscism and ancient Rome would be quite
problematic to investigate. But again, for us useless. Unless for
historical study.

Gallus Solaris Alexander
>

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"Paul Kershaw" <brighn@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:19:07 -0500

My sole active email address is brighn@yahoo.com (which, incidentally, I pay for, so I can use POP). Our ISP is Comcast (a cable provider), and they don't automatically set up email accounts. While it wouldn't be a significant hassle to get one (they're free to subscribers), I'm not sure it would be appropriate or productive to ask people to do so for this specific purpose.

-- Festus
----- Original Message -----
From: gcassiusnerva
2. No anonymous email email addresses {yahoo, hotmail, etc} will be
premitted in NR forums unless the actual provider address is listed in
the citizens profile. Yes, this means no more options for keeping the
email address private. In other words, if gcassiusnerva@cs.com is not
visible, then gcassiusnerva@yahoo.com is not permitted.

G. Cassius Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] For Pontius Sejanus Marius
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 18:18:56 -0000

... My heart goes out to you at this difficult time. Please accept my
best wishes for your health and happiness, and may your amicae
rally 'round you to give additional comfort and support.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:46:27 +0100

Salve Nerva,

I agree with you 100% that something should be done to verify that
applicants are real applicants. But I think that calling may be expensive,
especially when you need to verify a person living in a country that is not
the US. And even if you did call, it wouldn't stop the problem. The caller
would have to be able to recognize that the voice on the other line doesn't
belong to a pre-existing citizen, nearly impossible with the amount of
citizens that we have.

My idea: How about having the applicant snailmail a photocopy of their
identity card, passport or driving licence? This is certainly personal,
nearly impossible to fake (unless your a pro) & something that you would
never photocopy and give to just anyone.

>3. An application processing fee to be paid by the applicant up
>front. This will cover the cost of making contact by phone and
>verifying the address, as well as discouraging trolls.

Sounds good to me as I mentioned in a previous email that in my opinion,
taxes should be made when a citizen joins NR. That would a) ensure that NR
gets some well needed funds and b) drastically reduce the number of
pseudo-new applicants.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Reminder
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 18:57:22 +0000

Salvete omnes:

I look at the list of candidates, and feel at loss to which candidate to
vote. The Gods have been generous, and everyone in that list is more than
qualified to do a superb job, so I can't really pick one over another, but
these I decided to support.

First, I am glad that Consul Germanicus is running for office. He is an
asset to our Republic, his services are too numerous to list, and we're
fortunate to have him, and he certainly gets my vote.

For Consul I like Fabius Quintilianus for his knowledge of Roman
history, and he is also dedicated. He gets my vote.

I am also glad that in the latino side we have the outstanding presence
of Arminius Faustus, running for quaestor, who did a magnificent job of
translating Novaroma texts, and is a writer himself in his own right, and is
not shy to speak out. furthermore, Latin America is an area with great
potentials that needs work, and Arminius has shown energy and dedication,
and he certainly gets my vote.

I am also glad that Constantinus Serapio is running. Here is somebody
who has been a perfect Roman gentleman with comitas, pietas, and dignitas.
His knowledge of Rome is extensive. He has been tireless in his service to
NR. He is dedicated and he gets my vote.

I am also glad that Marcius Rex is running, for tribunus, and if the
government of Austria thinks he is qualified to represent Austria he
certainly is more than qualified to represent me, and is not shy to speak
out, and will certainly get my vote.

I am also for Modius Athanasius for Tribunus. He is not shy to speak
out. I've heard him speak, and he gets my vote.

I am for Galaicus for Praetor. He has been tireless in his dedication
to NR. His knowledge of Rome is extraordinary, and we're lucky to have him.
He certainly gets my vote.

At the end I am not a magistrate, and who cares what I think. But I
think you'd preffer to see my vote to that religious fight still going on.
Maybe they'll change subject, and start talking about the elections,
instead.

Valete
Galerius Peregrinator.

>From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Election Reminder
>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:09:18 -0600 (CST)
>
>
>Salvete Cives Omnes,
>
>As a reminder, the list of candidates for each office can be
>found at:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/election/2755/
>
>This can be considered the official listing - it is what will
>be used when writing the edict to call the election, and the
>configuration file for the voting software is generated as a
>by-product of the creation of this page. Therefore, it is
>in the best interests of every candidate to check that you are
>correctly listed there. Names should appear there within a day
>of the declaration of candidacy.
>
>Titus Octavius Pius, scriba curatoris, is maintianing this list.
>
>Valete, Octavius.
>
>--
>Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
>Candidate for Censor 2756:
> http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] My Apologies to L.. Cornlius Sulla
From:	"aarmpa" <regpoli@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 18:31:17 -0000

I am sorry that I directed my comments to you, I apologize and I will
try not to do that again.

aarmpa


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (An Open Letter to Publius T. ...
From:	serenusnova@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:11:10 EST

Salve Cassi et omnes,

Thank you for your intelligent definition of what Republic means. I am
somewhat puzzled however to see that you didn't comment on the latin root of
republic that is "Res Publica" or "the Public Thing". It is my understanding
that the priority given to Public matters over personal interests is also one
of the main definition of the concept as opposed to Oligarchy, monarchy etc
and even to some extent Democracy where the will of the majority does not
cover necessarily the needs of ALL citizens.
Perhaps in our modern times a Republican (Not the party, the idea ;-)) should
represent a system where basic public services (water and power such as
electricity distribution, transports...) are free and available to all. What
do you think?
I am looking forward to you comments.

Optime Vale

A. Octavius Serenus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religious Tolerance: Ninth Circuit Court of A
From:	Dana Chivers <dana.chivers@ohr.int>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:48:40 +0100

Excellent words !
It's good to hear someone unabashedly pro-American around here. Where I work
I am surrounded by leftist Internationals and socialist nationals, so your
words came as a good close to my day. Keep it up.
Thanks for the words about veterans too..........

Dana D. Chivers
Project Coordinator
USAID / Brcko
(049) 217-666, xt.322
Mobile: 065.920-954

> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Rogers [SMTP:wlr107@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 3:17 PM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Religious Tolerance: Ninth Circuit Court of
> Appeals
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "g_agorius_taurinus" <g_agorius_taurinus@y...>
> wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> > > Avete Omnes,
> > >
> > I don't think that they are a joke, and neither do my friends. We
> > love the ninth circuit. They had the bravery to strike the
> > detestable "under god" words out of our pledge.
> ******If you don't like the words, move to another macronation. The
> United States of America was FOUNDED with those words attached on
> almost all initial founding documentation. I have not delved into
> this discussion, and I hesitate to do so now. The United States of
> America was NOT founded as a Democracy, and it is NOT a Democracy
> today. It is a REPUBLIC. A REPUBLIC rules based upon what the
> MAJORITY has decided as their lifestandards and biases. It does NOT
> make it right, it just makes it law.
>
> And Sulla was right, over 60 percent of all state governments and the
> federal government considers the 9th district a joke. A bad joke, but
> a joke. ALL decisions they now make are AUTOMATICALLY reviewed by a
> member of the SUpreme Court now...the ONLY district to suffer that
> indignity I might add. (It's nice to know an intern there)
>
> Now if the 9th district actually FOLLOWED the COnstitution and
> stopped placing their personal views in there, I am sure they would
> be considered less of a joke. But when a member of that court spoke
> openly last year about how they intend to "update" the constitution
> on their own, it SHOULD scare you. A lot. What is to stop them from
> deciding you can no longer smoke in YOUR home? What is to stop them
> from deciding you cannot kiss your mate in your home? The U.S.
> Constitution, that's what!
>
>
>
> >
> > Those words don't belong there. This is not a nation under
> anyone's "God". This government does not endorse any religion. "God"
> is a commonly used and 'loaded-with-judeo-christian connotations'
> word in the western world- it clearly implies Jehova/Allah of the
> christians and jews and muslims.
> *****You need to go back and read what George Washington, James
> Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and others
> wrote about the term "In God We Trust." They were not speaking
> (ESPECIALLY Jefferson) to a specific "God", they were acknowledging a
> supreme being, whom the felt them find a way to create this nation.
> Nothing more.
>
> > I am not christian, jew, or muslim. But I am an American, and proud
> > to be one- and I pay taxes and I have a constitutional right to not
> > have to have my children "pledge allegiance" to the monotheist God.
> I don't pay for public schools to teach my kids to "pledge
> allegiance" to a nation "under god".
> *****What are you afraid of, showing an outward support for the
> veterans (like myself) who have been shot at or killed JUST because I
> or they wore a specific uniform or flag? If you cannot openly show
> support for your government, move. Considering the hundred of
> thousands of men and women who have sacrificed and DIED to give you
> that pledge, flag, and your freedom, I proudly say it in honor of
> them. I don't say it to honor anyone othere than those who have given
> all they are for one purpose...so I can have the RIGHT to express
> myself openly, and not sue someone every time I am "offended" by
> three words.
>
> Welcome to America....the land where the desires of a few are
> opressing the will of the majority.
>
> I humbly apologize to everyone in advance, as I am sure someone SHALL
> be offended, even though it was not my intent. May you be blessed,
> and have a wonderful day.
>
> Publius T. Rufus
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:39:24 -0800

Avete Omnes,

I would be pleased to consider promulgating such legislation in my remaining summons in December. I also liked Diana Moravia's suggestion (and I believe that Censor Equitius came up with something similar years ago) about having incoming citizens pay a small fee to enter Nova Roma.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: gcassiusnerva
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 5:30 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants

Salvete,

I think Nova Roma has become large enough that we should be more
careful in the accepting of applications. Therefore, I suggest the
following as new procedures.

1. All applicants must be personally contacted by phone and snail
mail in order to verify that the addresses are real, and that the
individuals are who they claim to be.

2. No anonymous email email addresses {yahoo, hotmail, etc} will be
premitted in NR forums unless the actual provider address is listed in
the citizens profile. Yes, this means no more options for keeping the
email address private. In other words, if gcassiusnerva@cs.com is not
visible, then gcassiusnerva@yahoo.com is not permitted.

3. An application processing fee to be paid by the applicant up
front. This will cover the cost of making contact by phone and
verifying the address, as well as discouraging trolls.

G. Cassius Nerva

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?q?attn._argentinos_Spanish/English_Espa=F1ol/Ingl=E9s?=
From:	"Daniel" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:46:41 -0000

Espa�ol /Spanish
Salvete omnes cives argentini novaromani.

Como propr�tor de la provincia novaromana de Argentina les invito a
que proyectemos encuentros y/o chats para el a�o pr�ximo.
1) �Qu� les parece hacer encuentros bimestral o trimestralmente a
partir de Marzo ?
2) Coordinar para tener chats en d�as y horas a convenir. �sto �ltimo
les puede interesar especialmente a quienes viven en el interior del
pa�s o est�n habitando fuera de nuestra naci�n.
Les invito a que hagan sugerencias en la lista oficial provincial de
Argentina :

http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Argentina

(primeramente hay que suscribirse a la misma).
Dicho sea de paso, en la secci�n "Archivos" o "Files" de la lista
encontrar�n planos interesantes del Coliseo y del Foro romanos.
Les recuerdo tambi�n que la p�gina oficial provincial argentina se
encuentra en :
http://argentina.novaroma.org
.

Bene valete et habeatis fortunam optimam.

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propr�tor provincialis Argentin�
Candidato a Tribunus Plebis
Factio Veneta (Crux Australis)

English/Ingl�s

Salvete omnes cives argentini novaromani.
As provincial propr�tor I invite all novaroman citizens from
Argentina to make proyects of meetings and chats for next year.
1) What do you think of bi- or trimonthly meetings beginning in
March ?
2) Coordination of scheduled chat meeting. This would be very helpful
for people living outside Buenos Aires and even abroad.
I invite you all to make suggestions to the official provincial
mailing lists (in Spanish)at:
http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Argentina (first you must
subscribe).
By the way you can see interestings maps of the Coliseum and the
Forum Romanum at the "Files" section of the list.
I remind you that the provincial website is located at:
http://argentina.novaroma.org .

Bene valete et habeatis fortunam optimam.

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propr�tor provincialis Argentin�
Candidate for Tribunus Plebis
Factio Veneta (Crux Australis)

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Religious Tolerance: Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
From:	"William Rogers" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:48:14 -0000

Paul, niely written! I have just a few notes, and they are contained
below...Publius T. Rufus
>
> Salve,
>
> (Quotes are from Rufus except where indicated)
>
> "The United States of America was FOUNDED with those words attached
on almost all initial founding documentation."
****Go the the library of congress, they can provide them. I gave my
copies to my school where I taught in South Carolina 2 years ago,
otherwise, I would gladly make you a copy. Heck, I have to admit, I
DO miss teaching!
>
> "It is a REPUBLIC. A REPUBLIC rules based upon what the MAJORITY
has decided as their lifestandards and biases. It does NOT make it
right, it just makes it law."
>
> Yes, and the majority at the time agreed that one immutable right
of every American citizen is the right to worship as they see fit
without government pressure. That's not a malleable right, that's a
right that was put in the Constitution for posterity.
*****EXACTLY RIGHT! I COMPLETELY agree with you there!

> "You need to go back and read what George Washington, James
Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and others
wrote about the term 'In God We Trust.'"
>
> By all means,...The Declaration of Independence refers to "the God
of Nature" and "the Creator," so I disagree with your claim that
Jefferson was referring to a specific God. He *was*, as you yourself
say in the same paragraph:
******You misread. What the founding fathers were referring to the
god of nature, as you wrote above. Those guys were ALL OVER the place
on their view on who "God" was. Heck, one Penn State professor told
us that I *think* Jefferson may have believed that nature itself
was "God", like the native indian beliefs, and Ben Franklin believed
that if there was a "God" he was simply watching us and enjoying the
joke we made of our lives down here. I do not believe for a SECOND
that ANY of them (or more than two or three of them at the most
agreed) on any belief in "God". Their meaning was to acknowledge the
beliefs of some of the members in the Contential Congress who wanted
the words there, or there would have been NO 13-0 vote on the
declaration of Independence, let alone much of a hope to work
together on REAL problems....so Jefferson, Franklin and others
acquieced (i am so sure I misspelled that) (or gave in) to allowing
the words to appear on the documents. Meaning of the words for those
guys? I can't say....I don't know of any writings where any of them
speak specifically to those areas.

> Jefferson's fault in this issue was his own arrogance that he could
redefine a common word by usage alone and have that change stick. He
called himself a Christian, but clearly wrote that people who go to
church on Sundays are not proper Christians. He wrote of "the God of
Nature" assuming people would understand the distinction between that
and the Judeo-Christian "God," and while many of his contemporaries
did, most people today don't.
*****That was something I have heard before. It was almost as if hes
saying one thing, meaning another, and yet (with his arrogance)
actually doing a third...he is TRULY an eginma.

> "What are you afraid of, showing an outward support for the
veterans (like myself) who have been shot at or killed JUST because I
or they wore a specific uniform or flag? If you cannot openly show
support for your government, move."
>
> This is a histrionic irrelevancy. Newdew and his supporters (like
me) want to feel COMFORTABLE saying the Pledge and otherwise
supporting the government. I respect our nation's veterans, and would
like to be able to support them without being reminded that, as a non-
monotheist, I'm a second-class citizen. Atheists and polytheists have
died defending the United States, too.
I don't consider anyone a second-class citizen because of their
beliefs on religion. The only way I personally consider
someone "second-class" is when they enjoy the freedoms others
provide, then use those freedoms to harm others.

The republic was founded on self-determination, equity for ALL
citizens, and a determination to ensure our freedoms are protected
from a tyrannical government, or a tyrannical majority/minority. Once
someone FORCES their views upon someone else, you are impinging upon
their rights to freely express themselves. If you tell me to "go
away, I don't want to hear your tripe", I need to leave. If I stay
and force you to listen, I break YOUR right to freedom of expression,
WHATEVER you choose to express. And the reverse is true also.
>
> "so I can have the RIGHT to express myself openly, and not sue
someone every time I am "offended" by three words."
*****Local Georgia joke....sorry. We have a local politician who says
it's three words....*shakes head* the man's wearing off on me! :-)

> (Two words.) So if by some series of civil events, the majority
religion became Satanism and the words were changed to "under Satan,"
you'd support that fully?
*****I wouldn't repeat those words, as I find them offensive, but
since it will not be happening in my lifetime, I will worry about it
when it happens, not before.
>
> "Welcome to America....the land where the desires of a few are
opressing the will of the majority."
>
> More histrionics. The Constitution provides that it can be voted
out of existence. If the majority is unhappy with the First
Amendment, they can vote to amend it, or to get rid of the
Constitution entirely. It may be the desire of a few, but it's the
will of the majority that those few be allowed to express their
opinions.
*****Not histronics, fact. We have ONE parent in a local school take
a school board over the fact the school teaches both "sides" on
the "origin of man" issue (creationism vs darwinism was how the paper
put it I think). Hey, if you don't want your child to learn that, you
DO have the right as a parent to remove your child for that day, and
bring them back...you DO NOT have the right to force your views upon
the rest of the class. After the court suggested he do the above, he
actually did it, and the case was dropped. The courts are NOT the
place to run and quibble over petty self-serving views. They are
places where real crimes need to be addressed. Just my view, and I
shall leave the discussion. Nice job...and I liked the links! :-)
Publius T. Rufus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] My Apologies
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:46:10 +0100

Salve Colleague!

Welcome back, I have been looking for You. I was a bit worried by
your sudden disappearance. I wish You Luck and a new Good Start in
life!

>Salve,
>My dear friends, I need to apologize for my lack of communication
>and activity. As you see, my current wife seems to have run off
>with another man, and I am facing a divorce. But now, my life is
>free of such distractions and annoyances. The Propraetor of America
>Austroccidentalis is back in action to serve the Empire. Feel free
>to call upon me if you need anything.
>
>With warmest regards,
>Pontius Sejanus Marius
>legio_vi@msn.com

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] List conflict (was Poll)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:45:56 +0000

>On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 06:29 AM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>wrote:
>
> > I am a new member and I don't understand why there is such acrimony
> > on this site? I joined this group because of my love of Rome and all
> > things Roman but I am disappointed that the majority of the posts
> > seem to be concentrating on religion (paganism vs. Christianity)and
> > nothing else. Aren't there other topics that are discussed in this
> > group? Why can't everyone agree to disagree and move on to less
> > heated subjects????
> >
>
Salve:

Had I subscribed to the forum before becoming a Novaroma citizen, I
would have said adios amigos and dropped out.
Yes, there are those who are brutish and nasty, but don't take them too
seriously. They don't speak for Novaroma, and don't reflect the general
sentiment of the Novaromani. Most Novaromani are good people, and will make
you proud to be in their company.
True, you see a lot of the rotten ones, but after awhile they grow on
you, and you get to like them, too.

Vale

Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (An Open Letter to Publius T. Rufus)
From:	"William Rogers" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:59:36 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Numerius Cassius Niger" <menippus@a...> wrote:
> Salve, Publi T. Rufus!
>
(SNIP!)

Heck, and I just went forward on the basis that most folks already
knew what a republic was....I utilized the word, not defined it, but
that's okay, I did learn some cool stuff! :-) Nice links, thanks!

Publius T. Rufus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 2 - small mistake
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:57:17 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

A small correction...

--- Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
<consulromanus@yahoo.com> wrote: > Salvete!
>
> QUIZ
>
> Who knows most on Ancient Rome?
>
>
...
> Answers to the previous questions may still be sent!

This should of course have been: "Answers to the
previous questions cannot be sent anymore!"

Pretty obvious since the correct answers of the
previous quiz follow right after this sentence...

>
> -----
>
> The correct answers of quiz 1:

My excuses for this little mistake...

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 2
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:52:11 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?

Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones�

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, �

Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don�t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting �QUIZ�
in the subject line.

The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions may still be sent!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 1:
Approximately how many legionaries were there in one
�centuria�? - 80

At which battle was Hannibal finally defeated? - Zama

By whom was Rome sacked first? - The Gauls

Fabius Maximus' nickname was? - The Delayer

How did Titus Manlius Torquatus punish his son? - he
ordered his head cut off

-----
Results:
Julilla Sempronia Magna - 5
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus - 5
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus - 5
Sextus Apollonius Scipio - 5
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix - 4
Lithia Cassia - 4
Spurius Postumius Tubertus - 3

-----

Here are today's questions:

***************

1. How many men were there in a legion?
a. approximately 1,800
b. approximately 3,800
c. approximately 5,800
d. approximately 10,800

2. In which month was Julius Caesar killed?

3. In which year did Claudius invade Britain?
a. AD 69
b. 44 BC
c. AD 64
d. AD 43

4. LX means � and XL means �.

5. Ruling from 161 to 180 CE, this adopted son of
Antoninus Pius was more of a philosopher than an
emperor. He wrote a work called The Meditations in
which he laments the plight of humans as "puppets on
the strings of desire." Who was he?

***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:23:23 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites

--- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:
> My idea: How about having the applicant snailmail a
> photocopy of their
> identity card, passport or driving licence? This is
> certainly personal,
> nearly impossible to fake (unless your a pro) &
> something that you would
> never photocopy and give to just anyone.

We have discussed this already a few months ago here.
There are two problems:

1. In certain countries it is illegal to make copies
of official documents.

2. How do the censors know what a driving licence
looks like in f.ex. Gabun?

> >3. An application processing fee to be paid by the
> applicant up
> >front.

This, I think, is OK.

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] USA Symbols
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 16:17:10 -0500

Salvete,

To me, the Jefferson and Lincoln memorials in Washington D.C. have
always look suspiciously like Temples to deified Emperors. Pagan Rome
strike again?

Valete,

Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus [mailto:lsicinius@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 12:31 PM
To: Nova Roma
Subject: [Nova-Roma] USA Symbols

Salvete Quirites,

I See we have a debate over "God" and the USA
Government. Let's see, the Monotheists have two words
in the pledge to the flag. Pagans have a huge statue
of the Goddess Libertas sitting in New York harbor. I
Think we Pagans got the better part of that deal.

The Monotheists have the Ten Commandments in some
courthouses. Most courthouses also have a statue of
the Goddess of Justice, or at the very least the
scales that are her symbol. Again the Pagans have the
better deal.

The Monotheists have "In God we trust" on the money,
while the word "money" is derived from Juno Montea,
the Monotheists have the better deal here.

The Pagans take two out of three and win the Symbol
Series.

Before you start supporting the Atheists over
Monotheistic Symbols in Public, don't forget that the
USA Government also uses many Pagan symbols that are
part of our Roman heiratage. Do you really want to
encourage the Fundementalists to start stripping our
symbols out of public life in an act of vengance?

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: USA Symbols
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:21:30 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Before you start supporting the Atheists over
> Monotheistic Symbols in Public, don't forget that the
> USA Government also uses many Pagan symbols that are
> part of our Roman heiratage. Do you really want to
> encourage the Fundementalists to start stripping our
> symbols out of public life in an act of vengance?

You forgot a few, The fasces in the House of Representatives, The
Eagle on the National Seal (legionary standards), and on the obverse
the Eye of Providence (Provedentia a Roman Virtue), in the Rotunda
of the Capital the ceiling fresco by Constantino Brumidi, "Apothoesis
of Washington" features Washington surronded by Roman dieties, the
Jefferson Memorial bears a striking resemblence to the Temple of
Vesta, the Lincoln Memorial bears a striking resemblence to the
Temple of Saturne. I think when it comes to incorporation of Roman
Pagan symbolism into American culture, Roman Pagans easily trump "In
God We Trust."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: USA Symbols
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:26:34 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> To me, the Jefferson and Lincoln memorials in Washington D.C. have
> always look suspiciously like Temples to deified Emperors. Pagan
Rome
> strike again?
> Hadrianus

LOL, just as you were posting this I was typing up: ", the
Jefferson Memorial bears a striking resemblence to the Temple of
Vesta, the Lincoln Memorial bears a striking resemblence to the
Temple of Saturne."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:31:20 -0000

Salve,

Has this been a big problem? Has there been a significant run on Nova
Roma regarding fake i.d.'s?

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius Epulone

Independant

" FOR Curule Aedile "

"Doing it on his own ;on no one's coat tails"

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> --- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@p...> wrote:
> > My idea: How about having the applicant snailmail a
> > photocopy of their
> > identity card, passport or driving licence? This is
> > certainly personal,
> > nearly impossible to fake (unless your a pro) &
> > something that you would
> > never photocopy and give to just anyone.
>
> We have discussed this already a few months ago here.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:36:22 -0800

Ave,

It has happened on more than one occasion. Even affecting magistrates. Our tribune Gn. Salix Asatur, who is running for Praetor, informed me that there are others he knows about but he was unwilling to act on it. So yes, I believe it is an issue that needs to be addressed. We are talking about voter fraud. Because what would the purpose of having multiple citizenships do for someone? It would give them more votes.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul of Nova Roma
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank & K.C.
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:31 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants

Salve,

Has this been a big problem? Has there been a significant run on Nova
Roma regarding fake i.d.'s?

Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius Epulone

Independant

" FOR Curule Aedile "

"Doing it on his own ;on no one's coat tails"

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> --- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@p...> wrote:
> > My idea: How about having the applicant snailmail a
> > photocopy of their
> > identity card, passport or driving licence? This is
> > certainly personal,
> > nearly impossible to fake (unless your a pro) &
> > something that you would
> > never photocopy and give to just anyone.
>
> We have discussed this already a few months ago here.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:38:41 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> It has happened on more than one occasion. Even affecting
magistrates. Our tribune Gn. Salix Asatur, who is running for
Praetor, informed me that there are others he knows about but he was
unwilling to act on it. So yes, I believe it is an issue that needs
to be addressed. We are talking about voter fraud. Because what
would the purpose of having multiple citizenships do for someone? It
would give them more votes.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul of Nova Roma

Salve, Senator

Thanks for the info. I missed that in the past. Regretably it seems
that I learn everday of something else that has no place here in Nova
Roma.

A.Silvanius Virbius Epulone


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:41:24 -0600 (CST)

Salve Consul,

> It has happened on more than one occasion. Even affecting magistrates.

Yes. There have also been many instances of a suspicious flurry of
applications from similar addresses in a brief time; some of those are
an entire family signing up at once, but just as often it's an attempt
at fraud.

> We are talking about voter fraud. Because what would the purpose of having
> multiple citizenships do for someone? It would give them more votes.

One solution to this would be to change the lex regarding Assidui and Capite
Censi so that first-year citizens are no longer considered Assidui, until
they've paid. Thus, the fraudsters who have multiple identities would still
have multiple votes, but the votes would be nearly useless.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:44:56 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants

Salve Consul,

Ave Consul,

> It has happened on more than one occasion. Even affecting magistrates.

Yes. There have also been many instances of a suspicious flurry of
applications from similar addresses in a brief time; some of those are
an entire family signing up at once, but just as often it's an attempt
at fraud.

> We are talking about voter fraud. Because what would the purpose of having
> multiple citizenships do for someone? It would give them more votes.

One solution to this would be to change the lex regarding Assidui and Capite
Censi so that first-year citizens are no longer considered Assidui, until
they've paid. Thus, the fraudsters who have multiple identities would still
have multiple votes, but the votes would be nearly useless.

Sulla: That is an excellent idea. I will definately add that into the law I am preparing on this very matter.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Elections
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 16:57:25 -0500 (EST)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

I am very pleased to see such a wide variety of new faces in the white
Candidate Togas for this Election Season. It says to me that the NR
Citizens are growing tired of the same people running for office over
and over again, under the mistaken belief that it is only thier old
ideas and thier old abiities that are the ones which can propel Nova
Roma forward. I would tend to agree, in that many times, in the last
two years, I have been more than pleased to become acquainted with new
people in Nova Roma, who have displayed all the hard work, intelligence,
and ability that is necessary to take on the task of a Magistrate. Men
and women who have entered the lists and who have given thier time,
effort and abilities to NR.

I say give them thier chance, let them try thier hand at the helm of a
Magistry, and let them deal with the two-edged sword of "Imperium." I
predict that they will do just as well as our "Old Hands" and in some
cases, far far better.

By all means, every Citizen should have the right to attain the Cursus
Honorium, and serve as Censor if that is his / her wish and capability.
Then having attained a Senate Seat devote thier energies to the support
of new blood , who will bring new ideas and new methodology to NR, as
well to the needs of the micronation. Certainly, there are items which
remain to be accomplished, but in my humble view, the new hardworking
and aspiring citizens of Nova Roma will be able to deal with those
concerns just as well as those who have served previously and who have
not finished thier work, for whatever reasons. I too, have left work
unfinished during my NR service, and had my term been five times as
long, I would still have been forced to leave somthing undone, simply
because a dedicated Magistrate does not stop working for those who have
elected him / her, when that Magistrate's personal agenda is complete,
but rather continues the work, of the Citizens, until the end of his
/her term as is indicated in the Magistrate's Oath.

In the remaing days before the Citizens of NR go to the polls, I will be
pleased to discuss various of these new candidates who in my
view, hold forth such promise for Nova Roma in the future, and who I
have had the honor to know and work beside. These are not "hollow
people" whom I have congratulated and made empty awards to, as some
people have accused me of, but rather real hard-working and industrious
people who have kept thier commitments, who have unfailing dealt
politely with the electorate, (which I believe the electorate can
expect), and who have studied the ways of Nova Roma for the express
desire to serve her.

I do not expect to stand for a Magistry this year. I had been asked for
the last two years to stand as Quaestor and to serve as an Asst. to a
Praetor. For whatever reason, those promised usages did not come to
pass (criticise no-one for that happenstance), and so I will pass my
former standard to another who will seek your approval, in my place. I
am a poor candidate as a long-term politician anyway, as I tend to say
what I think, I tend to argue my points regardless of the grandness of
my opponents, and I wear my heart on my sleeve, and my attitude on my
face. I am a lousy Poker player as a result, as well as a poor
politician. I do not have the smooth exterior of a practised political
personage, nor do I have the sleek reasoned logic to say something far
different than I mean. My vocabulary suffers from the "Lower Deck" of
my early years, and my education was primarily involved to further a
Naval Management Career, rather that a set of political promises. My
early trtaining was in a submarine where you had better say what you
mean, or men could die. I have never gotten over that training, and I
probably never will.

Those to whom I shall be pleased to speak with you about in the days to
come are such people as myself, in many aspects, who are who they are,
and not someone else hiding a whole set of unusual problems. They are
honest and straightforward people, whom I am privaledged and honored to
call friend, and people to whom the term of "Honor" and meaning of the
"Roman Virtues" are not just words, but which are attitudes to be
striven actively to gain.

There are those who will criticize my words, I am sure, and they
certainly have the right to do so, however, I respectfully ask the
Citizens of Nova Roma, to give consideration to these, my humble words,
and then, as always, make your own choices as you have so wisely done in
past years. I do not ask for your vote, simply because it is not my
right to do so, bu it is both my right and duty, to which you have
raised me, to bring to you, for your careful consideration, my views of
momentuous events in Nova Roma. This years elections will have a
significant impact in the the coming year and perhaps years in Nova
Roma, and I am proud to be involved in that "momentuous event" even in
this very small and insignificant way.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"Frank & K.C." <shamrock@cros.net>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:58:31 -0000

Salve ,

Thank you both , Senators.

I returned back here shortly after the last discussions regarding the
gens, so I guess I'm going to have to brush up on the history of this
problem and also the problems regarding gens behaviour. I have always
been a strong advocate of the pay to play philosophy and as I
mentioned in my campaign promise , that I intend that all my Gens
members will be pais as soon as I can make it so. I will also not
allow any new members unless they have can prove that they have
become Assidui. There is a lot of pride and passion found on this
list and I would only hope that those that "dwell" here remember that
fact when it is time to find their checkbooks. I don't mean to be
brusque, but the entertainment and education present here is cheap at
half the price.

Ambosius Silvanius Virbius Epulones

Independent for Curule Aedile

" doing it on his own; on no one's coat tails"

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Avoiding Trolls/Verifying Applicants
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:32:35 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@p...> wrote:
that we have.
>
> My idea: How about having the applicant snailmail a photocopy of
their
> identity card, passport or driving licence? This is certainly
personal,
> nearly impossible to fake (unless your a pro) & something that you
would
> never photocopy and give to just anyone.

While a good idea, unfortunately it is also illegal in most
jurisdictions, passports especially!

> Sounds good to me as I mentioned in a previous email that in my
opinion,
> taxes should be made when a citizen joins NR. That would a) ensure
that NR
> gets some well needed funds and b) drastically reduce the number of
> pseudo-new applicants.

Actually that makes sense, as new citizens are enrolled as assidui
anyway there is nothing wrong with them actually having paid the tax,
Personally I think it should be prorated so that someone joining
right after the annual tax collection would pay more in taxes than
someone who has to pay taxes again two months later.

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Candidacy for Quaestor
From:	"Claudius Salix Davianus" <salixdavianus@terra.es>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 23:31:00 +0100

salvete cives,

iam multi vestrum me congnoscistis tamquam Tribunus. Pergratum mihi est
mittere meam candidaturam ad quaesturam.
Most people in NR know may performance as Tribunus ... now it is grateful
present here my candidacy as quaestor.

Cl. Salix Davianus
=========================
Tribunus Plebis Novae Romae
Decurio-Translator Linguae Latinae
Caput Doctrinae Academiae Thules

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] HISPANIA - EDICTVM XI - DE NOVO CONSILIO PROVINCIALEM
From:	"Lucius Minicius Laietanus" <laietanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 05 Nov 2002 22:41:33 -0000

============================================================
EDICTVM PROPRAETORICIVM XI - DE NOVO CONSILIO PROVINCIALEM
Relativo a la renovaci�n anual del Consilium.

Ex Oficio Propraetoris Hispaniae

I. Nuevos nombramientos.
De acuerdo con los resultados de los Comitia Provincialia para la
renovaci�n anual del Consilium, mediante este edicto son nombrados
para ocupar los diferentes cargos previstos en la administraci�n
provincial los siguientes ciudadanos:

* LVCIVS DIDIVS GEMINVS SCEPTIVS como LEGATUS Externis Rebus

* IANVS MINICIVS SPARSVS como LEGATUS Internis Rebus

* AGRIPINA MINICIA TIBVLA como SCRIBA Propraetoris Procurator Retis

* TITVS MINICIVS MARIANVS como SCRIBA Propraetoris ad Latinitatem

* CAIVS ARGENTINVS CICERO como SCRIBA Propraetoris ad Anglinitatem

* MARCVS DVRMIVS SISENNA como SCRIBA Propraetoris Arenae

* HADRIANVS RVTILIVS BARDVLVS como SCRIBA Propraetoris Praeco Actae

* LVCIVS FABIVS VERVS POMPAELIANVS como SCRIBA Propraetoris Militarium

* MARIANVS ADRIANVS SARVS como SCRIBA Propraetoris Curatore
Confabulatorii

* CAIVS IVLIVS BARCINVS CICONIVS como SCRIBA Propraetoris Sociorum

II. Reconocimiento p�blico a todos los miembros del Consilium
saliente.
Deseo tambi�n hacer p�blico el reconocimiento a la labor
desarrollada hasta hoy por los ciudadanos que han formado parte del
Consilium saliente, en especial a los legati GNAEVS SALIX ASTUR y
CLAVDIVS SALIX DAVIANVS por hacer llegar su entusiasmo y su compromiso
con el proyecto de Novaroma a todos los ciudadanos de la provincia.

Promulgado con el soporte previo de la Curia Hisp�nica, hoy
non. Nov. MMDCCV auc, a�o del consulado de Marcus Octavius
Germanicus y Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.

Lucius Minicius Laietanus
Propraetor Hispaniae

==========================================================
EDICTVM PROPRAETORICIVM XI - DE NOVO CONSILIO PROVINCIALEM
Concerning to the Consilium annual relay

Ex Oficio Propraetoris Hispaniae

I. New appointments
According to the results of the Comitia Provincialia for the Consilium
annual relay, through this edict the following cives are appointed to
cover the different offices of the provincial administration:

* LVCIVS DIDIVS GEMINVS SCEPTIVS as LEGATUS Externis Rebus

* IANVS MINICIVS SPARSVS as LEGATUS Internis Rebus

* AGRIPINA MINICIA TIBVLA as SCRIBA Propraetoris Procurator Retis

* TITVS MINICIVS MARIANVS as SCRIBA Propraetoris ad Latinitatem

* CAIVS ARGENTINVS CICERO as SCRIBA Propraetoris ad Anglinitatem

* MARCVS DVRMIVS SISENNA as SCRIBA Propraetoris Arenae

* HADRIANVS RVTILIVS BARDVLVS as SCRIBA Propraetoris Praeco Actae

* LVCIVS FABIVS VERVS POMPAELIANVS as SCRIBA Propraetoris Militarium

* MARIANVS ADRIANVS SARVS as SCRIBA Propraetoris Curatore
Confabulatorii

* CAIVS IVLIVS BARCINVS CICONIVS as SCRIBA Propraetoris Sociorum

II. Public agreement to all members of the outgoing Consilium
I also want to make public acknowledgement to all members of the
outgoing Consilium for their efforts and their extraordinary task.
Special mention to both outgoing Legati GNAEVS SALIX ASTVR and
CLAVDIVS SALIX DAVIANVS for their enthusiasm and their commitment with
the project of Novaroma and its development in Hispania.

This edict is issued with the previous support of the Curia
Hispanica, today, non. Nov., MMDCCV auc, in the year of
Marcus Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
consulship.

Lucius Minicius Laietanus
Propraetor Hispaniae

=======================================================

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Polytheism and Monotheism
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 22:48:20 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Artemisia <artemisiakore@yahoo.com>
>
>The people that bother me most are the ones who claim
>to be �God-fearing Christians� and then slander the
>Middle Easterners. Do they really think their religion
>came from Europe originally? Yeah, and Jesus was
>blonde-haired and blue-eyed.
>
the KKK published a tract called Jesus and other Klansmen in the 1920s I believe! Much easier than listening to a word attributed to him.
Vibius.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Religious Tolerance: Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 22:51:35 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : g_agorius_taurinus <g_agorius_taurinus@yahoo.com>

>love the ninth circuit. They had the bravery to strike the
>detestable �under god� words out of our pledge.
>
Well *this* nation has the Pope written into the Constitution! Few Americans seem aware that the 'Under God' was added in 1956 thanks to MacCarthy - some crazy idea that 'Gaadless Cummies' would be stricken dead if they tried to say it something. Since it didn't go through the usual channels for constitutional change it presumably is unconstitutional.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] On Some of Those Who Have Declared
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:44:45 -0500

Spurius Postumius -f. A.n. Tubertus Quiritibus Novae Romae S. P. D.

Salvete,

For the Office of Censor: Marcus Octavius Germanicus.

With this man, I have had the pleasure of working for the past four months. I am currently serving as one of his scribes and have, in September, recently taken over his duties as Retiarius of the Lacus Magni provincia. Most would think that these things would allow for a clouding of judgement. And perhaps it has. But I truly believe it hasn't.

Among the many things I have observed from the current Consul, I have come to know him to be one of the most intelligent people I know, if not the most intelligent. I would not, and will not, hesitate to call the man a genius. Consul Octavius has designed numerous websites, and maintains them quite well. Among the things he has done with these websites, he has been able to find utilities that make the duties of not only himself, but his scribes, and other magistrates, as well as those of us common citizens, considerably easier. Since he has been creating utilities for the Censors, I would most likely be beyond death to find even one former or current Censor say that his utilities do not make their duties easier and more practicable.

Similarly, let me speak about his temperance, and reason. Marcus Octavius Germanicus, as we all know, is a man of great patience and understanding, as has been shown numerously. Holding the office of Censor requires both patience and understanding. It requires that one be patient, in dealing with patres- and matresfamiliae. It requires that one be understanding of one's statements and meanings, as well as one's interpretation of the public virtues, before issuing notae against citizens and senators. It requires all the virtues that I have come to see in the Consul Octavius, not at all to imply that any prior censor lacked these virtues. Rather, perhaps they did and do. My point is simply that Octavius is well suited for the office of the Censor. He has all the virtues needed of a censor, and I have no doubt that his virtues will develop even further, if it is quite possible (his virtues being as great as they are), during a term as Censor, as they have done during his term as Consul.

For these reasons, my fellow citizens and friends, I urge you all to elect our good friend and Consul Marcus Octavius Germanicus to the Censorship.

For the Office of Consul: Caeso Fabius Quintillianus

I have, for some time, aspired to campaign for a Capitoline magistracy. And I still do, though I am not permitted to yet. However, too I have worked with the current Aedilis Curulis Caeso Fabius Quintillianus. Though, unfortunately, I have never had the pleasure of meeting this man face to face, I could quite easily and honestly say that Quintillianus is both a man of his word, and a man of high dignitas. I could go on endlessly about his morals and such, but that does not relate much to the consulship.

The office of the Consul requires administrative skills of the utmost magnitude. These, the Aedilis has. We have all seen the Cohors of the Aedilis (if not, let me direct you to view his website, at http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/). He has this organized in such a way that if, for some reason, any macronation wished to look at our own "Cabinet," were they to look solely at his Cohors, I know for a fact that no country would look down at it, rather, quite the opposite.

My friends, I have no doubts that Caeso Fabius will prove a grandiose candidate for the Consulship.

For the Office of Quaestor: Manius Constantinus Serapio and Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Manius Constantinus Serapio, if I am correct, is currently a scriba for the good Aedilis Plebeius, Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix. I have seen, for the time I've been here, the games put on by the good Aedilis. I am certain that they do not cost as small a fee as many would like (although I could be wrong). And, though I know him more for his web skills than his financial skills, I would highly doubt that he has not had some financial experience working on Cicatrix's staff.

Even still, I know, if nothing else, that Manius Constantinus is a great manager with many things, and I would not at all contrive this man to be frivolous with money. Though the duties of the quaestors are not as demanding as those of other magistracies, let us consider what would happen if there were not responsible quaestors holding magistracies. I'll not get into them all here, but I am sure we are all intelligent enough to notice what may happen to our finances were there not responsible quaestors in office, even with the Senate overviewing the Treasury.

I know Manius Constantinus to be a man who is true to his word and his undertakings. I know that Manius Constantinus is a responsible man, and one of nothing short of grandiose judgement in all things.

As well, I also would like to speak of the candidate Sextus Apollonius Scipio. This man, also of similar qualities as Manius Constantinus Serapio, is currently serving as the financial prefect of the Land Project Department of the Sodalitas Egressus, of which Serapio is the Dominus Praefectus. Let me say this, _The Man Knows His Finances_ !!!

What else can I say, vote for one of them!

I leave the voters to make their decisions.

Optime Valete Cives Amicique Mei,

Spurius Postumius -f A. n. Tubertus
Retiarius Lacuum Magnorum
Scriba Curatoris Araneae
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" -- Q. Horati Flacci

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