Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Away for the weekend
From:	Bill Gawne <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:06:27 -0500

Salvete,

I'll be away (from home, work, and keyboards) until late Sunday.
Before I depart, I *will* look up those references about the
historical duties of the Aediles, as promised earlier today.
Otherwise, if there's something you want me to see, it might be
a good idea to e-mail me a copy of it.

Valete,

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
Caeso For Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Marinus for Curule Aedlie - http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne/marinus.html


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Citations wrt Aedelian duties in antiquity
From:	Bill Gawne <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:36:16 -0500

The duties of the aediles are set forth in Cicero's work. I was even
able to find an online reference, which quotes him extensively.

See especially the passage I've marked out with ** asterisks **

Quoting from:

http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/brit_AE.txt

Aedile (Lat. aedilis), in Roman antiquities, the name of certain Roman
magistrates, probably derived from aedis (a temple), because they had the care
of the temple of Ceres, where the plebeian archives were kept. They were
originally two in number, called ``plebeian'' aediles. They were created in
the same year as the tribunes of the people ([[494 BC]]), their persons were
sacrosanct or inviolable, and (at least after until they were elected at the
Comitia Tributa out of the plebeians alone. Originally intended as assistants
to the tribunes, they exercised certain police functions, were empowered to
inflict fines and managed the plebeian and Roman games. According to Livy (vi.
42), after the passing of the Licinian rogations, an extra day was added to the
Roman games; the aediles refused to bear the additional expense, whereupon the
patricians offered to undertake it, on condition that they were admitted to the
aedileship. The plebeians accepted the offer, and accordingly two ``curule''
aediles were appointed--at first from the patricians alone, then from
patricians and plebeians in turn, lastly, from either--at the Comitia Tributa
under the presidency of the consul. Although not sacrosanct, they had the
right of sitting in a curule chair and wore the distinctive toga praetexta.
They took over the management of the Roman and Megalesian games, the care of
the patrician temples and had the right of issuing edicts as superintendents of
the markets. But although the curule aediles always ranked higher than the
plebeian, their functions gradually approximated and became practically
identical.

Cicero (Legg. iii. 3, 7) divides these functions under three heads:--(1) Care
of the city: the repair and preservation of temples, sewers and aqueducts;
street cleansing and paving; regulations regarding traffic, dangerous animals
and dilapidated buildings; precautions against fire; superintendence of baths
and taverns; enforcement of sumptuary laws; punishment of gamblers and usurers;

**the care of public morals generally,**

including the prevention of foreign superstitions. They also punished those
who had too large a share of the ager publicus, or kept too many cattle on the
state pastures. (2) Care of provisions: investigation of the quality of the
articles supplied and the correctness of weights and measures; the purchase of
corn for disposal at a low price in case of necessity. (3) Care of line games:
superintendence and organization of the public games, as well as of those given
by themselves and private individuals (e.g. at funerals) at their own expense.
Ambitious persons often spent enormous sums in this manner to win the popula1
favour with a view to official advancement.

In 44 Caesar added two patrician aediles, called Cereales, whose special duty
was the care of the corn-supply. Under [[Augustus]] the office lost much of
its importance, its juridical functions and the care of the games being
transferred to the praetor, while its city responsibilities were limited by the
appointment of a praefectus urbi. In the 3rd century [[A.D.]] it disappeared
altogether.

Authorities.--Schubert, De Romanorum Aedilibus ([[1828]]); Hoffmann, De
Aedilibus Romanis ([[1842]]); Goll, De Aedilibus sub Caesarum Imperio
([[1860]]); Labatut, Les Ediles et les moeurs ([[1868]]); Marquardt Mommsen,
Handbuch der romanischen Altertumer, ii. ([[1888]]); Soltau, Die ursprungliche
Bedeutung und Competenz der Aediles Plebis ([[Bonn]], [[1882]]).

--
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus - candidate for Curule Aedile
Scriba Aedilis Iuridicialis Primus to Senior Curule Aedile
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/
Caeso For Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Poor Taste
From:	"lithia_cassia" <mscommunication@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 01:10:34 -0000

I think I may have missed a posting.. is there in fact a Back Alley
message board for Nova Roma? If not, I think we need one. ;)

>
> In a message dated 11/7/02 12:14:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> alexious@e... writes:
>
>
> > Remember if you decide to try the back alley, no toga's allowed.

>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:18:03 -0800

Ave,

I would love to implement that option, but it has been made clear that at least in Australia that would be illegal. And, we do not know what other countries have such legislation in affect.

Such a shame...I like that solution too.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:38 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma

AVE CONSVL SVLLA

I sent my vote, but I have some doubt.

I don't think any of the three solutions is the right one.

-Paying for citizenship would lower the number of new incoming
citizens.

-Banning free e-mail providers would nearly get the same result.
"Ok, you can become a citizen of Nova Roma, but you have to pay an e-
mail provider because we don't consider you free one."
My e-mail provider works well, and it is free, as well as the ones of
many other citizens.

-A telephone call to each new citizen would be too expensive for our
Treasury. We have a few money and we must use it to reach financial
stability.

However, the fourth option says "Things run well as they are", and
this is not the case. Without any doubt things must be changed.

Isn't it possible to realize Diana Moravia's proposal?
Within the end of the year (for those who join Nova Roma in December,
within following December) new citizens should send by e-mail a
scanned copy of a personal document (Photo + data: therefore even the
supermarket-card would be ok) to the Censores.
It isn't impossible to have something scanned today.

OPTIME VALE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] These Polls...
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 01:48:59 +0000 (GMT)

Just a general reflection on the use polls are being put to (I hope this won't be a long message, so I shan't write an abstract):

Anyone who wants to put a bill to the Senate and / or the People is of course perfectly entitled to seek advice in whatever way they want, but it strikes me that to have a sort of informal referendum on what one ought to propose is not really necessary or very much in tune with the way this republic (and others which use elected representative systems) is designed to work.

The electorate votes for people to serve as magistrates based on the respect they have for the good sense, wisdom, political experience and sound judgment of those people. They effectively say to those they elect, 'we trust you to do this job better than we could do it'. So it is reasonable to suppose that they want the people they elect to put forward their suggestions as to the best course of action, so that they can, as the supreme legislative body, decide whether to accept the suggestion or not. The electorate expects magistrates to tell it what they think, not to ask it what it thinks and then suggest that they follow their own advice. After all, if they don't like an idea, they can just vote against it when it comes to the assembly.

No honour is lost by putting a proposal before the People which they choose not to accept, and no great kudos is to be gained from repeating the views of the People back to the People. So I would say to any magistrate, yes, seek the advice of those whose individual good sense you value, but there is really no need to ask the whole populace what proposal they think you ought to put before them - by electing you, they gave you in advance their whole-hearted blessing to give them whatever proposals you want.

Not criticism; just a suggestion from the top of my head. Thanks for listening,

Jamie

www.strategikon.org

---------------------------------
Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Cool Roman Commercial?
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Thu, 7 Nov 2002 22:24:02 -0500

Salvete,

Does anyone have a link to a site with the video clip for the commercial
that came out awhile back, showing NYC as the capital of a modern Roman
Empire?

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 05:15:17 +0000

>Isn't it possible to realize Diana Moravia's proposal?
>Within the end of the year (for those who join Nova Roma in December,
>within following December) new citizens should send by e-mail a
>scanned copy of a personal document (Photo + data: therefore even the
>supermarket-card would be ok) to the Censores.
>It isn't impossible to have something scanned today.
>
>OPTIME VALE
>MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
>
>
Yes it is impossible for many people to have something scanned, and as
to copying documents it has already been pointed out it is illegal in some
countries.

Galerius Peregrinator.
>

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 05:32:44 +0000

Salvete:

My understanding is that Novaroma is an open book. Anyone with a
computer could access novaroma.org and see everything there is to see. The
forum too, you don't have to be a citizen to participate. So what's wrong
with having a simple token requirement, to be agreed on, for those who want
to become citizens. It would simply make the act a serious undertaking, and
require some commitment. Isn't that what we want? people willing to make
the commitment? Isn't it better than to end up with 5,000 citizen, but only
500 with known addresses?

And since we are in the subject, I have a word to say about the main
list. Many GOOD PEOPLE are being turned away by what goes on. It is our
showcase, and it doesn't look good.

Galerius Peregrinator.

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 4
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:48:13 -0500

Here are today's questions:

***************

1. This notorious tyrant who squandered state Ans Caligula
resources on orgies for the Roman aristocracy ruled
from 37 to 41 CE. He was responsible for several acts
of bloody violence and came to power after killing his
father. The judgment of history seems to be that he
was worthless as an emperor. Who was he?

2. What did the Romans call Spain? Ans A
a. Hispania
b. Britannia
c. Dacia
d. Parthia

3. What does ‘salve’ mean? HAIL

4. What does MCMLXXXII mean? 1982

5. This proponent of Christian orthodoxy outlawed Ans Theodosius
paganism in the empire, but nevertheless ended up
excommunicated from the Church by Ambrose of Milan
after he had thousands of Thessalonians put to death
for killing a barbarian military leader. Who was he?

***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Unavailable until 11/10 or 11/11
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 02:00:50 -0500

Salvete,

I will be out of town and away from a computer Friday 11/08 until Sunday
11/10 or Monday 11/11.

I will return any emails as soon as possible after that.

November 10, Happy Birthday to all fellow former Marines! Semper Fi!

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator,
Candidate for Praetor

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Law & Morality (WAS: Action & Responsibility)
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 02:24:23 -0500

Salve, Jamie -

On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 09:36:08PM -0000, jamiekjohnston wrote:
> C. Fabia Livia has wisely pointed out to me that my posts can often
> be extremely long, and that casual readers might benefit from an
> abstract to help them see whether they're interested in reading on or
> not, so here is the abstract:

They are a bit longer than usual, but (IMO) this does not detract. I,
for one, enjoy reading your posts, even though I don't always agree with
your conclusions: you seem to give your words serious consideration
before writing them, and I value that in others as well as in myself.

Since you have shifted focus to a broader issue (one that I think is
important and pertinent to NR), I'll take a shot at it, despite the late
hour (it's well after 0100 here); tomorrow, I'll be on the road again,
and probably won't get a chance to read this list until Monday.

> Well, then, the main gist of your last message on this subject was, I
> think, that we ought to tackle the question of the relationship
> between law and morality, and how the ideas of moral responsibility
> I've been advocating ought to relate to the law.

Not exactly, although it's a topic that I find very interesting. <grin>
So, however it came about, feel free to expound.

> Initially I was
> unwilling, not because I don't find it interesting but because I
> thought it was quite a long way away from the original topic. But it
> is an important question, especially in light of some of the debate
> which has been going on recently about other more practical matters.
> It's also because of its relevance to these matters that I've
> postponed suggesting we take it off the list, because although it's
> only the two of us at the moment, others may feel they want to join
> in.
>
> You commented, 'once you _are_ responsible, and the law _does_ take
> cognizance of the fact, then you _must_ be punished according to the
> measure. There does not seem to be any space in the above discussion
> to afford the /de minimis non curat lex/ principle; you're either
> responsible, to whatever degree, or you're not.'
>
> Is it necessarily true that the law must inflict punishment on
> everyone responsible for anything to any degree?

In current legal systems of which I am aware, the key word in the above
is "cognizance". If a policeman clearly Does Not See You (however much
effort is necessary for him to do so), then e.g., jaywalking is not a
crime. If, however, he does, and does not cite you, then he is violating
his mandate, that of upholding the law.

In my opinion, a system that requires its guardians to violate it in
order to make the job tenable (or even possible) is broken from the
start.

[ Snip ]

> A penalty can be justified on various grounds: it is to
> protect society from a dangerous individual; it is to protect an
> individual from himself; it is to reform an individual; it is to
> discourage others from committing the same crime; it is to discourage
> the convict from re-offending; it is to provide expression and
> release for society's desire for revenge; it is to force the offender
> to make a contribution to society, or to the injured party, to
> compensate for his offence. These are the ones I can think of at the
> moment. I do not include anything about morality, because to
> say 'this action was immoral and must be punished' is not in itself a
> justification: we then ask, why must an immoral action be punished,
> and why must the state do it? This question must be answered by a
> subsidiary answer like the ones above.

<Nod> A reasonable requirement. Note that this does not presume a
"correct" answer; the state may well espouse a morality (or, more
correctly, an ethical position) which it decides to enforce. It is even
arguable that this may be a reasonable thing to do, depending on the
definition of "ethical" or "moral".

> But if a penal system isn't founded on a single philosophy of
> justice, then there is really no point in discussing whether any
> penalty is just or unjust, because there are no agreed principles
> according to which the issue can be decided, and the decision will be
> essentially arbitrary, depending on the views of whoever makes the
> decision.

Well... I have to disagree, at least mildly. In English and US law, at
least, the principle of equity generally supercedes the principle of
justice (at least in my somewhat fuzzy recollection), which means that
there are at least two sets of principles that may apply to a situation
- and yet, the penalties may be (and mainly are) just.

> Moreover, some of the answers I suggested above cannot
> apply to some punishments. For instance, one cannot seriously justify
> the imposition of a death penalty on the basis that it will reform
> the person concerned, and neither can it be fully justified by saying
> that it protects society or that it discourages the convict from re-
> offended, because there are other ways of doing that which, while
> more expensive, could be considered more humane.

Hmm... is it justification for the punishment or for the means of
punishment you're looking for? In the one case, the death penalty _is_
justified, because it _is_ effective at preventing recidivism. In the
other, it's not: if murder is wrong when done by an individual, it's
just as (or perhaps even more) wrong when done by the state.

> So then, let us consider the hypothetical case I suggested in my last
> message: Person A has heard on the news that a convict in another
> country has been sentenced to death. He does not make any effort to
> prevent that sentence from being carried out. The convict in the
> other county is executed, and the state in which A lives uses my
> suggested procedure for determining how responsible A is for the
> death of that convict (I don't know why the state does this - perhaps
> the convict was also a citizen of this state). Applying the
> procedure, they find that A was indeed to some extent responsible for
> the death of the convict, and they must now decide what to do about
> it. Their decision will be determined by the philosophy which lies
> behind their penal system (I assume this to be an ideal state in
> which a single philosophy underlies the whole of the law).
>
> 1. If the intention of punishment in this state is to protect society
> from a dangerous individual, well, there would be very little they
> could do, as any attempt to limit A's freedom would make it even more
> difficult for him to assist any person who might be in danger of
> death in the future. They might indeed consider that A is not in any
> normal sense 'dangerous', as all he did was nothing, and people do
> this all the time.
>
> 2. If they wanted to protect A from himself on the grounds that my
> failing to act he might allow himself to come into danger, there is
> also not very much they could do about this, as it is true of
> everyone, and as they couldn't easily make him act if he didn't want
> to act; moreover, it is likely that in the case of danger to himself
> he would be more inclined to act, and would find it easier.
>
> 3. If they wished to reform him, then he could be obliged to take
> lessons in ethics according to a set syllabus.

...and *that* is an example of the ethics clause I mention above. If I
understand correctly, Japan's legal system has a fairly large component
of this (pretty scary stuff, actually, from what I've heard.)

> 4. If they wished to discourage others from committing the same
> offence, then they would presumably inflict the harshest possible
> penalty on A, or at any rate the harshest penalty they felt was worth
> the cost to the state of inflicting it.

A teeth-chilling aspect of old Soviet law: "you're not being punished
_for_ - you're being punished _so others will remember._"

> 5. If they wished to discourage A from re-offending, they could
> hardly kill, incarcerate or fine him, as these would all be
> detrimental to his ability to avoid committing the same offence
> again. They could reprimand him, or threaten him (though threats
> would be ineffective because he would know they would react in just
> the same way the next time he did it. Or rather, didn't do it), but
> that's about all.
>
> 6. If they wanted to give expression and release to society's desire
> for revenge, they would inflict punishment on him proportional to
> society's sense of outrage at his offence. This would most likely be
> minimal, as a large number of other citizens would also be guilty of
> the same crime (though admittedly hypocrisy is not unknown in human
> beings).
>
> 7. If they wanted to force him to make recompense to society or to
> the convict's family, then they would presumably impose on him fines
> or civic duties proportional to the loss suffered by society. If they
> were literal about it, they might insist that he father a child
> immediately.

Heh... <irony> to carry on the father's criminal tendencies, no doubt.
</irony>

> My personal belief is that the purpose of punishment should be the
> protection of society in general, its particular members and the
> order and integrity of the state.

Agreed.

> I do not believe that the purpose
> of law is to enforce morality, because I do not accept the right of
> any person or group of people to impose their moral views on others
> by force (though I entirely support the right of every person to
> judge others by their own moral standards, for otherwise what use are
> moral standards at all?)

That's a very slippery one. What if a group of people who believe in a
given moral stance form a nation with that as one of its main
principles? Shouldn't anyone wishing to join that nation subscribe to
that morality, or at least give full credence and support to it? Or,
what if ethical behavior is defined as doing your duty to the state,
since that is what supports the existense of that ethos? For myself, I
think that the duties of the state to the citizen *and* of the citizen
to the state should be clearly described, as a part of an _overt_
agreement and social compact (something that, in my opinion, does not
require tremendous complexity among people of good will.)

> I would be interested to know the views of others on this matter, and
> in particular those of Minucius Scaevola on which of the above seven
> approaches he personally would take, or whether he has another which
> I have failed to notice.

To rephrase your statement above, the appropriate action would be
whatever contributes the most to the integrity of the state (isn't it
interesting that this presumes a morality?) and the protection of
society and its members. We have a number of good examples of working
systems (or at least systems that would work well if not overloaded...);
I believe we can draw on their lessons and the virtues of our spiritual
ancestors in Ancient Rome to create a balanced system of justice and
equity for all our citizens.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Illi robur et aes triplex circa pectus erat, qui fragilem truci commisit pelago
ratem primus.
As hard as oak and three times bronze was the heart of him who first committed a
fragile vessel to the keeping of wild waves.
-- Horace, "Carmina"

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Coffee Rules
From:	scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:55:09 +0100

Salve Diana,

> So then you are on your third cup sometime around 8:00 AM? :o)

No, with three children you do not even time to get any coffee in the morning!!
(but an aspirine at night....) ;O)

vale,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Poor Taste
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 03:16:16 -0500 (EST)

In response to Master Sulla, Yes, unfortunately I did venture into the
"Back Alley List" for a short period of time. The result was that a
good friiend left the list and Nova Roma because of specific comments
regarding his beliefs. I left the list simplly because of the foul
language and hateful messages posted there. I try to steer clear of
such in my world, and I feel that I can well get along without those
kind of expresssions.

I am well aware Master Sulla that our tastes in amusement differ widely.
The "story" to which you refer was both embarassing and a travesty of an
experience that I had shared with the author. It was written and posted
without my knowledge or permission and drew from myself to the author
privately, a very stiff response. The author also has left Nova Roma,
his real reasons unknown to me. He and I were friends and I wish he had
not left but that was his decision.

Believe me I am quite capable of writing similar material about those
whom I dislike, or disagree wih, however, I choose not to, as in my view
to deliberately embarrass another person is not only rude, but is
counterproductive, and the results last for a long long time.

In my view, I am far more comfortable with people who have left Back
Alley, than those who remain on it, simply because of the above sated
preferences.

I have no doubt that you think that Back Alley provides a service to
Nova Roma. Perhaps it does. However, my hope was and is that the
elements of Back Alley should not be brought to the Main List. You and
I have disagreed on much in our mutual experence, and this is just one
more item. Your enjoyment of another's embarrassment is certainly your
business, but it is not something that I either enjoy or wish to be
associated with.

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:19:05 +0100

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

I have been reading this discussion since the beginning. It is of course a very
important subject as it will set up the first contact for the new comers to
Nova Roma. You may know, if you read my financial platform (did you? ;O) ) that
NR'S recognition in the macroworld is very dear to me.
I fully understand both sides: the need to ask for a token for getting in so
that undesirable people stay away and the difficulty that some good citizens
might have to pay 2 or 3$.
Something strikes me. Why should this token be financial? We could easily ask
new comers to do a small work for Nova Roma during the first weeks of presence,
like a translation task, writing an essay, gathering some information etc...
IMO, this will be acceptable and understandable for both sides and furthermore
might accelerate the involvement of the new citizens in the life of our
Republic.
I am humbly asking the Honored Consul Sulla to consider this proposal in the
new set of laws to come.

Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Callimorius' new career?
From:	Andy Pearson <andy.pearson@nrpb.org>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:28:07 -0000

Tiberius Claudius Lucentius Vindex Scribae Manio Constantino Serapio SPD:

(I hope that's right)

Many thanks for your reply: An auction might be good (for me, hopefully)
though I ain't setting a reserve price on the open list - that might depress
the bidding! I mean, he's a bit roughed up at present, but hey! this guy's a
veteran - he's butchered more meat than the average kebab shop owner.

Vale
Vindex

This e-mail transmission is strictly confidential and intended
solely for the person or organisation to whom it is
addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential
information and if you are not the intended recipient,
please do not copy, distribute or take any action in
reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error,
please notify the sender as soon as possible and delete
the message.

Please note that NRPB monitors incoming and outgoing
e-mail for compliance with its Acceptable Use Policy. This
will include scanning incoming e-mails to detect viruses
and key-words and may in some circumstances result in
the manual monitoring of the content of messages.

National Radiological Protection Board
E-mail: nrpb@nrpb.org
Web site: www.nrpb.org
--------------------------------------------

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] *VENATIONES* 4th day!!!!!
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 01:50:39 -0800 (PST)

THE CIRCUS FLAMINIUS AND "THE MUSARUM NETWORK" WELCOME
YOU TO THE FOURTH DAY OF THE VENATIONES!!!!!!!

Before starting our commentary of the combats, I must
read a press release:
-----------------------
>>>LATINA'S ODYSSEY<<<

Latina's ship has been attacked in the Ionian Sea by a
furious striped sea monster. This monster declared to
be a distant relation of the tiger Latina killed
during the Venationes. As a consequence, the monster
wanted vengeance.
Latina, having no weapon, asked the ship's company for
the laces of their caligae. With them she created a
strong rope, and used it as a lasso.
The monster has been captured. Therefore, the tigers
which still have to combat in the Circus Flaminius
jointly decided to be much more nasty during next
combats of the venationes.
However, Latina reached the Gulf of Corinthe and will
berth at a quay very soon.
-------------------------

That's all. We hope to get more information about
Latina's pilgrimage as soon as possible!

Well, we are here, waiting for well-known citizen.
Oh, yeah! I see him!
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN........... SEXTUS APOLLONIUS
SCIPIO!!!!!!!!!!

Our dear Propraetor Galliae always meets with the
public's approval (especially the feminine one!).
But given that nothing succeeds like success, whe are
waiting for Scipio's great fighter!

HERE HE IS!!!!! CRISPINUS!!!!!!!!!!!
This wonderful Venator comes from the cold regions of
Sarmatia! (today known as Russia) There he started his
hard training, as he always desired to become a strong
fighter. At the age of 10 he was moved to Rome where
he entered a good gladiatorial school. Unfortunately,
during a civil war, he was captured and offered to the
Forum Boarium, the slave and gladiator (and bovine)
market.
Just before past Ludi Apollinares (Crispinus was 19
years old), Sextus Apollonius Scipio was strolling
about, looking for somebody to send to the Arena for
the first Venationes of Nova Roma. And he saw him!

We could say that it has been love at first sight.
Crispinus started working at Scipio's service. Our
dear citizen introduced his fighter to the Ludus
Leontinum.
However, Scipio only had a few Sestertii....
...up to Crispinus' victory.
During past Venationes Crispinus defeated a strong
bull. As a consequence, today Scipio owns 17,666
Sestertii. He is one of our richest citizens, while
Crispinus is very strong. He has 35 strength points
and 36 resistance points. Nice story, isn't it?

Hey! I was speaking, but Crispinus is no longer alone!
He will face one of the tigers the press release
referred to!

Wow! THIS TIGER LOOKS VERY RAVENOUS! It has been
recently caught in Numidia. It has 38 strength points
and 47 resistance points. It didn't had breakfast this
morning... hmm.... it's dangerous!

THE COMBAT BEGINS!!!

They are studying each other.
Crispinus is armed with a..... WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO
HAVE A *NORMAL* WEAPON FROM TIME TO TIME???????
PROBABLY NO!
Crispinus is armed whit a blowpipe!

The tiger runs against him. Crispinus blows hard.
The beast manages to lightly scratch him, but it has
been hit by Crispinus's nail.

Crispinus has a resistance of 32; the tiger 40.

The same scheme is repeated for the second time! It
seems to be difficult for Crispinus to avoid the
tiger's attacks!

Crispinus 29; the tiger 31.

Again! Every time the tiger approaches, Crispinus hit
it with one or more nails!

Crispinus 27; the tiger 21.

The tiger is now licking its wounds. But it lasts only
a few seconds! IT IS READY AGAIN! IT ATTACKS CRISPINUS
WHICH DIDN'T PUT THE NAILS INTO THE BLOWPIPE YET!
CRISPINUS FALLS DOWN! HE IS UNDER THE TIGER!
HE FREES HIMSELF BY THRUSTING A HANDFUL OF NAILS INTO
THE TIGER'S ABDOMEN!

Crispinus has now a resistance of 23; the tiger 15!

CRISPINUS IS DRIPPING WITH BLOOD! (what a sanguinary
commentary today! Really Roman!)

HEY! CRISPINUS HAS NO MORE NAILS!!!! He is looking for
but he can't find them!

He is asking now for a new weapon. He wants a...
AGAIN? HE ASKS FOR A FITCHEW!
No, Crispinus. I guess people didn't like that kind of
"weapon" yesterday.

THE TIGER ATTACKS AGAIN!
THEY ARE FIGHTING WILDELY!!!!!

Crispinus has difficulties in freeing himself!

Hey! WHAT A GREAT IDEA! CRISPINUS IS TICKLING THE
TIGER!
THE TIGER ROLLS ABOUT! IT CAN'T STOP LAUGHING!
HEY! THAT'S A SUFFERING! (I am veeeery ticklish! ;) )

19 resistance points for Crispinus; 8 for our big cat!

Tickling goes on! That's really merciless, but people
seem liking it! The tiger is in hysterics!

Crispinus 15; the tiger 2.

Oh, Crispinus stopped!
The tiger is exhausted by strong laughter, and is
still loughing a bit.

It is trying to recompose itself, but...

What is Crispinus doing?

He is showing something to the crowd...

IT'S A TWINKLING NAIL! Maybe he just picked up one.

He also picks up his blowpipe.

He puts the nails into the blowpipe. He brings it
nearer his mouth....

------------------ - - - - - - - >>>>>

ouch!.... absolutely pitiless....

He exactly hits the tiger between its eyes....
Crispinus has now 11 resistance points. He is rather
weak, while the tiger.... succumbs.

Our people never saw something like that but... THE
CROWD GET CRAZY!!!
THEY HAIL CRISPINUS!
CRISPINUS VICTOR!!!!!!!

That was a great combat!!!!!!! Congratulation
Crispinus, and congratulation Scipio!

TODAY WE ARE HAVING ANOTHER COMBAT. NOW JUST A SHORT
PAUSE. WE WILL BE BACK IN A SECOND!!!!

===================================
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
===================================

WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE ARE READY FOR ANOTHER EXCITING COMBAT!!!

Oh, yeah! A new fighter for our venationes! His name
is "MEMOR" and comes from the warm Mauretania, in
North Africa. (hey, do you already know the Africa
Septentrionalis website? grin!)
He has been bought by our dear Lucius Aulus
Octavianus!
This citizen is a bit poor now (only 1,000 Sestertii),
but he expects to increase his fortune by winning this
battle.
And Memor can definitely realize this expectation! He
is a very strong fighter: 45 strength points and 35
resistance points. In addition, he trains in our best
gymnasium, the ludus Matutinus. Wow!

Women look at him... hmm... is he surpassing Sextus
Apollonius Scipio? ;)

YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!!!!!!!
A huge pachyderm made its entry in the Circus
Flaminius! That's really *not* an easy foe to defeat!
This ELEPHANT has been caught in Illyricum. It has a
strength of 22 (hmm... not so much) and a resistance
of 60 (REALLY A LOT!!!!!!!).

THE COMBAT BEGINS!

Memor approaches the elephant. He irritate it, he
tries to provoke it.

THE ELEPHANT BURSTS OUT! Memor has ben wounded!

OUCH!!!! WHAT A STRENGTH!!!!! MEMOR MANAGED TO GRAB
THE ELEPHANT'S TUSKS AND TO PULL OUT THEM!!!!!!!!

Memor has a strength of 34; the elephant 46.

Oh! Poor elephant! It's really suffering! :(

Memor put the tusks on his head (hmm... that's not
nice to see!) ...AND CHARGES OUR BIG BIG FRIEND!!!!

Memor 33; the elephant 32!

What is he doing now? Memor grasped its proboscis! He
is using it to tie up its legs!

Now he strongly grasp its tail AND START TWIRLING!!!

THEN HE LETS GO HIS HOLD!!!!!!! THE ELEPHANT "FLIES"
AND.......

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! IT IS FALLING ON THE CROWD!!!!!!!!!!!
But people manage to move over!!!!!
Oh, it would have been a disaster!

MEMOR ENTERS THE TERRACE AND REACH THE ELEPHANT
AND.......

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!! HE LIFTS THE ELEPHANT USING
THE TUSKS AS A COUPLE OF CHOPSTICKS! AND HE HURLS IT
INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE CIRCUS!!!!!

Memor has now 30 resistance points; the elephant 26!

Hey! The elephant tries to free itself.... but its
legs are tied!

Memor is near the animal again! He grasp its ears ans
start running through the whole Circus Flaminius!
(Where does he found such a strength?)

Memor 28, the elephant 16!

Memor lets go of.

The elephant looks lost.

Memor.... MEMOR FREES A LITTLE MOUSE!!! The mouse
approaches the pachyderm, which get crazy! IT TRIES TO
TRUMPET, BUT THE MORE IT TRUMPETS, THE MORE THE
PROPOSCIS-KNOT IMMOBILIZES IT!

The elephant has a heart attack!

Memor has still 28 resistance points, while the
elephant only 1!

Memor catches the mouse.

The elephant seems to be thankful.

Now Memor approaches the pachyderm and whispers
something in its ear.

HEY! THE ELEPHAT TRIED TO TRUMPET AGAIN AND....
IT'S DEAD!!!!!!!!!

NOBODY UNDERSTOOD WHAT HAPPENED BUT PEOPLE HAIL MEMOR!
A GREAT FIGHTER! A REAL VENATOR!!!!!!!!!!!

HE STILL HAS 28 RESISTANCE POINTS!!! MEMOR IS THE
WINNER!!!!

WHAT A GREAT COMBAT!!!!!!

THE CROWD IS EXCITED! Everyone congratulates Lucius
Aulus Octavianus!

Just a moment please.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

OK, MY FELLOW CITIZENS! I AM HERE WITH MEMOR!!!!!!!!!

a-A great combat, Memor. What is your secret?
b-Mouses
a-Mouses?
b-Of course. I learned my way of fighting looking at
them.
a-Wow, that's intriguing! Sorry, Memor, everybody
wants to know it. The elephant died after you
whispered something in its ear. What did you say?
b- Oh, well... I squeaked!

HEY FOLKS! THAT'S REALLY A GREAT FIGHTER! WHAT A
TECHNIQUE!!!

Well, that's all for today!
I must inform you that we will have a short pause
during this weekend in order to allow Manius
Constantinus Serapio to take part to a Nova Roma
meeting in Provincia Italia.

WE WILL BE BACK NEXT MONDAY WITH NEW COMBATS!!!!!!

ENJOY THE VENATIONES! ENJOY THE LUDI PLEBEI!!!!!!!!

BENE VALETE IN PACE DEORUM!!!!!!!

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Apollonia Acta -- Weekly Roman News and Archeology
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:54:40 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

please find this week Roman news at:

http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Archeology/

With the discovery of an unknown temple dedicated to Antinous and the fight of
RosiaMontana.org (may be we should join?...)

Enjoy,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus Academiae Thules
Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] *VENATIONES* 4th day!!!!!
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:01:14 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

Crispinus is armed with a..... WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO
HAVE A *NORMAL* WEAPON FROM TIME TO TIME???????
PROBABLY NO!
Crispinus is armed whit a blowpipe!

This is a gift from an icenian friend!!

Thank you for your story, great games!!

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Fee for joining?
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:09:01 -0000

Salvete, tireless fortunate consule and optime amice Arminii Geniali,

I think we can kill two rabbits with just one shoot (How this saying
translated became strange!)

We must make very clear on the application for citizenship that NR
has taxes for the citizens. It will have two good results:

1 - It will stop the deception from discoverig AFTER joining that you
do have to pay taxes, what I saw happening a lot of times with my
friends.

2 - The text will not say WHEN the taxes shall be paid. So the Trolls
will hardly join, not knowing when they will be hurted on the pocket
(maybe they think it will be soon), but knowing they will be hurted,
they will not enter... pay just for mock? A surely displeasing
taste!

L. Arminius Faustus
Remember, FAUTUS FOR QUESTOR, FAUSTUS FOR PLEBEIAN AEDILE!

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> I understand your disagreement. This is why I created the poll in
the first place. I want to know the preference of the People before
I promulgate this law. I do not have a preference in the three
choices given. The one that wins the poll will be the one that will
be incorporated into the proposed law, and will be presented to the
People in the December summons of the Comitia Populi.
>
> But I stand by my previous posts that it is very common that not
for profit corporations charge fees to join. It might be distasteful
to you, and that is understandable, I really do sympathize. But I
would rather take steps to protect the voice of the People who are
already citizens than to have the system abused by citizens who
willfully manipulate and abuse the system.
>
> I would really like to know the scope of this problem and again I
would really like Tribune Gn. Salix Astur, candidate for Praetor to
address this issue on the ML publically. I believe the people of
Nova Roma have a right to know about this. I do not think I am the
only one interested.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Titus Arminius Genialis
> To: Nova-Roma@y...
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:20 PM
> Subject: RES: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
>
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> I agree completely with L. Faustus and I think most of you do too.
> It is simply RIDICULOUS asking non-citizens to pay for getting
their
> citizenship.
> Our need is to GET NEW CITIZENS, and not to make it MORE
DIFFICULT for them
> to be novaromans.
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Arminius Genialis.
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: Lucius Arminius Faustus [mailto:lafaustus@y...]
> Enviada em: quinta-feira, 7 de novembro de 2002 07:38
> Para: LISTONA
> Assunto: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
>
>
>
> Salve,
>
> I don�t usually annoy you with my opinion for nothing, but
sometimes I
> really don�t believe in what I read on that list.
>
> PAY just for JOIN?
>
> Well, we do have problems to the payment of the taxes from the
old and
> compreensive citizens, we would put this height for the newbies
also?
>
> And seems that there is people that still forget that NR is
INTERNATIONAL.
> If sending US$12 is a problem (I�d say 'a pain in the XXX' )
imagine just
> US$3 !!!
>
> Why do we prevent Trolls to enter? I really don�t have the
definitive
> answer, but paying for join is against the Law... of good sense!
>
> Vale bene in pacem deorum,
>
>
>
> L. Arminius Faustus
>
> Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae, scriba tribuni plebis.
>
> Member of Decuriae Interpretes - (portuguese chair)
>
> Visit my office at
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Fee for joining?
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:15:43 +0100

Salve L. Arminius Faustus,

I understand your points. But the ones from the Honored Consul are good too!!
Did you read my proposal?

Vale,

> 2 - The text will not say WHEN the taxes shall be paid. So the Trolls
> will hardly join, not knowing when they will be hurted on the pocket
> (maybe they think it will be soon), but knowing they will be hurted,
> they will not enter... pay just for mock? A surely displeasing
> taste!

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Callimorius' new career?
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:19:39 -0000

MANIVS CONSTANTINVS SERAPIO TIBERIO CLAVDIO LVCENTIO VINDICI S.P.D.

Tiberius Claudius Lucentius Vindex Scribae Manio Constantino Serapio
SPD:
>
> (I hope that's right)

Well, nearly right! Just add NI at the end of SERAPIO! ;)

> Many thanks for your reply: An auction might be good (for me,
hopefully)
> though I ain't setting a reserve price on the open list - that
might depress
> the bidding! I mean, he's a bit roughed up at present, but hey!
this guy's a
> veteran - he's butchered more meat than the average kebab shop
owner.

Oh, ok... Perhaps you should wait for your fighter to train and get
new strength and resistance points! In this way you will get a higher
amount of Sestertii.
Well, I will study this opportunity for next Venationes! :)

BENE VALE
SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
-------------------
VISIT MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
CAESO FABIUS QUINTILIANUS FOR CONSUL!!!


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Verifying citizenships/free providers
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:36:36 +0100

Salve Serapio,

[>] > -Banning free e-mail providers would nearly get the same result.
[>] > "Ok, you can become a citizen of Nova Roma, but you have to pay an e-
[>] > mail provider because we don't consider you free one."
[>] > My e-mail provider works well, and it is free, as well as the ones of
[>] < many other citizens.

There is another reason why banning free email addresses wouldn't change
much. Some of us who pay, can have as many email addresses as we want. For
example, with my provider, I get 20 email addresses. I have 4 different IP
addresses. If I were dishonest, I could sign up for 20 citizenships. An IP
trace would prove that I wasn't 20 people, but 4 people, but in reality it
is just me. If I paid another 5 Euros per month, I could have another 20
email addresses with 4 more IP's. Again, even with an IP trace, I could be
4 more citizens. A fast way to make Gens Moravia increase it's citizenships
by 300 percent overnight, but not an honest one :-)

Vale!
Diana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Renata Corva Cantrix for Rogator!
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:51:06 +0100

Salvete!

It is with great enthusiasm that I offer my support for my fellow female
Nova Roman, Renata Corva Cantrix! I have had a lot of contact with her
off-list, and she is certainly more than capable of performing the position
of Rogator. She is strong minded as well as kind and intelligent.

This year's elections are filled with extremely intelligent and honorable
men, but in a government dominated by men, a woman's point of view may offer
a different insight into any situation!

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Some thoughts on voting abuse
From:	"danedwardsuk" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:21:49 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

I find it pertinent at this stage to voice my opinion on how we should proceed in order to diminish the apparent abuse in our voting system that currently exists. Several options have been discussed and considered on this list, prompted by a poll issued by Consul Sulla.

Admission charge: This seems to be the favoured option of many, but I agree that too many people will just walk away from Nova Roma if this is implemented. Many have already stated that they would have done so, yet have gone on to become active and productive citizens. These are the life blood of Nova Roma and, as a consequance, I will find it difficult to support any measure that could inhibit recruitment. The difficulties experienced by many to pay such a paltry amount must also be acknowledged.

Email restrictions: This is an awkward and unwieldy proposal. In practice, I would imagine that at least a couple of hundred citizens would need to change their email addresses, and I would guess that many would resent doing so.

Official identification: It has already been pointed out that reproducing ID is, in many countries, illegal. In addition, I would, at the least, have felt uneasy about sending a copy of my passport or driving license to an organisation that was not legally registered in my own country (we do not have oficial ID cards in the UK...yet).

Time commitment: As as alternative to an admission charge, honourable Sextus Apollonius Scipio advocated implementing some sort of community service as a condition of entry. In fairness, to organise such a policy would require a 'government department' in order to organise and provide appropriate work. This is providing that the applicant has the time to contribute. I certainly didn't when I joined. Sorry Sexte Apolloni, again, an unweildy proposal that inhibits membership.

Telephone contact: This has more merit I believe. Telephone or even snail mail contact could be initiated by governors and their provincial staff who could then verify an applicants validaty with the powers that be. If maintained at a local level, costs would be kept to a minimum.

Capiti Censi: Another better way, already suggested I believe by Consul Octavius, is to place all new citizens immediately amongst the capiti censi. The votes of potential fraudsters are thus greatly diluted until the next financial year, when taxes are again due. If an individual then wishes to pay their tax two, three or even more times for a couple of extra votes, then so be it to the benefit of the treasury. Of course, I in no way advocate multiple voting, I just approach the problem in a realistic manner. If an individual is determined enough, they will defraud the system no matter what checks we have in place. In actual terms, a couple of extra votes would, in all probability, make very little difference to an election outcome.

Finally, I would like to echo a call made by Consul Sulla. Gnaus Salix Astur, as a magistrate of our republic and as a candidate for one of our most illustrious of offices, I urge you to do all in your power to reduce any activity of voting fraud that currently exists that you are aware of. I make no judgements in your direction as I do not know the details of the case alluded to. I just trust that you will act in the best interests of Nova Roma.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Candidate for Quaestor.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Coffee Rules
From:	"William Rogers" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:27:48 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> How about those who are over sixty and do not drink coffee? Since
I do
> not fit into your "coffee" categories, and I would suppose there
might be a few others. perhaps you should also consider tea
drinkers, "Coke" drinkers and those few us us who enjoy Chili-Con-
Carne and Hot Tamales for breakfast.
****Make that three cokes then, or tamalaes with with juat a
little "extra" hot sauce...then we will know you are awake! :-)
(And probibly looking for bread to cool down the tongue!)

My wife has indicated her thought that such puts me in a
> unique category, and so I introduce such as perhaps a "special
group" with VERY special needs (Grin!!!!!!!).
*****If you ever come to atlanta, I have GOT to try that for
breakfast sometime!

Publius T. Rufus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] These Polls...
From:	"danedwardsuk" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:28:48 -0000

....are a useful method of determining how the populace of NR feel about specific proposals so as to enhance the chance of successful promulgation of a law (if correctly worded of course). If Roma of antiquity still existed, I'm sure opinion polls would be a fact of every day life, just as they are today most of the world over.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Fee for joining?
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:43:52 -0000

Salve, Appolone,

Yes, now I�m seeing. I liked a lot! Cultural job is a excellent fee!
Just a little research, very easy to Roma lovers (Nova Roma is anemic
of its blood, a good cultural supply). I liked also the personal
letter to the governor. Or donate a roman book to a public library.

Do everything, just don�t put another duty on the pockets... this is
the most sensive piece of the human body. It may seems strange that a
candadate for the questorship whines constantly about taxes and
money, but taxes have the power to be the great flow control valve of
new citizens. And if the valve is too close, only the the most
capable $$$ will join... NR is for all.

And I�m very afraid of getting people out... specially of the poor
countries.

L. Arminius Faustus
FAUSTUS FOR QUESTOR!

-- In Nova-Roma@y..., Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@m...> wrote:
> Salve L. Arminius Faustus,
>
> I understand your points. But the ones from the Honored Consul are
good too!!
> Did you read my proposal?
>
> Vale,
>
> > 2 - The text will not say WHEN the taxes shall be paid. So the
Trolls
> > will hardly join, not knowing when they will be hurted on the
pocket
> > (maybe they think it will be soon), but knowing they will be
hurted,
> > they will not enter... pay just for mock? A surely displeasing
> > taste!
>
> --
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor
>
> My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
> Come and Read!!
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some thoughts on voting abuse
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:19:54 +0100

Salvete Omnes and honorable Decimus Iunius Silanus,

> Time commitment: As as alternative to an admission charge, honourable Sextus
> Apollonius Scipio advocated implementing some sort of community service as a
> condition of entry. In fairness, to organise such a policy would require a
> 'government department' in order to organise and provide appropriate work.

I disagree. The Acadmia would love having more materials, the translators team
would appreciate some help, Apollonia Acta needs more researchers... All those
tasks can be implemented very simply and at once. No need to implement anything
special for this.

> This is providing that the applicant has the time to contribute. I certainly
> didn't when I joined. Sorry Sexte Apolloni, again, an unweildy proposal that
> inhibits membership.

The time to be given to those tasks will not be enormous. Just a few hours, if
not minutes. Just enough to keep the undesirable people at bay. Furthermore any
Rome lovers will appreciate to contribute to the community and may even find it
so enjoyable that they will stay active.
Too many citizens do not know how to participate or sometimes hesitate of doing
so. This could as well liberate a lot of energy.

This proposal is just a replacement of the fee system advocated by our honored
Consul. Any other mean to keep bad people away and so limitate the voting abuse
is welcome.

Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:37:02 -0800

Ave,

To have such a subjective requirement is prone to even more abuse. Laws should be written objectively. Ie. the 3.00 fee, or no freebee email addresses as a point of contact, or some direct phone contact are objective benchmarks that can be applied to anyone. Something akin to a cultural job can be entirely subjective and can alienate even more potential citizens. I am not convinced that this is a better choice at this point in time. I base this on my experience and recent termination of two of Senator Caeso Fabius's scribes. Not many citizens in NR want to "work" but observe and get their feet wet before becoming active. Each citizen (and pending citizen) should have the freedom to decide if they want to contribute their time to Nova Roma.

I understand your concerns but we must have something that is equitable across the board that will effect everyone equally. In the end, forcing someone to work for their citizenship (to be approved) sounds suspiciously like slavery to me.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

I have been reading this discussion since the beginning. It is of course a very
important subject as it will set up the first contact for the new comers to
Nova Roma. You may know, if you read my financial platform (did you? ;O) ) that
NR'S recognition in the macroworld is very dear to me.
I fully understand both sides: the need to ask for a token for getting in so
that undesirable people stay away and the difficulty that some good citizens
might have to pay 2 or 3$.
Something strikes me. Why should this token be financial? We could easily ask
new comers to do a small work for Nova Roma during the first weeks of presence,
like a translation task, writing an essay, gathering some information etc...
IMO, this will be acceptable and understandable for both sides and furthermore
might accelerate the involvement of the new citizens in the life of our
Republic.
I am humbly asking the Honored Consul Sulla to consider this proposal in the
new set of laws to come.

Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some thoughts on voting abuse
From:	"danedwardsuk" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:37:54 -0000

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

>> Time commitment: As as alternative to an admission charge, honourable Sextus
>> Apollonius Scipio advocated implementing some sort of community service as a
>> condition of entry. In fairness, to organise such a policy would require a
>> 'government department' in order to organise and provide appropriate work.
>
>I disagree. The Acadmia would love having more materials, the translators team
>would appreciate some help, Apollonia Acta needs more researchers... All those
>tasks can be implemented very simply and at once. No need to implement anything
>special for this.

Sure, but we are talking about a couple of hundred applicants a year, if not more. Someone would have to co-ordinate such an effort, and to be honest it is quite a large undertaking. I guess that it would take at least three people to manage such a project effectively. Such a scheme would probably come under the jurisdiction of the censors, so I'd be interested to hear their comments.

>> This is providing that the applicant has the time to contribute. I certainly
>> didn't when I joined. Sorry Sexte Apolloni, again, an unweildy proposal that
>> inhibits membership.
>
>The time to be given to those tasks will not be enormous. Just a few hours, if
>not minutes. Just enough to keep the undesirable people at bay. Furthermore any
>Rome lovers will appreciate to contribute to the community and may even find it
>so enjoyable that they will stay active.
>Too many citizens do not know how to participate or sometimes hesitate of doing
>so. This could as well liberate a lot of energy.

Also remember that some citizens do not wish to contribute time for whatever reason, personal or otherwise. When I first joined NR time was at a premium for me. I was, at the time, a nurse working a horrible shift pattern. In addition, I was coming towards the end of studying for a degree. I really could not have donated time to NR, even if I had wished to. I fully support any effort to encourage activity within NR, but it should remain voluntary.

>This proposal is just a replacement of the fee system advocated by our honored
>Consul. Any other mean to keep bad people away and so limitate the voting abuse
>is welcome.

And on this we agree :-)

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Candidacy for Rogator
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:08:12 -0000

Salve,

Welcome to the Rogators race. Wish you the best at the polls and its
is nice to see Nova Roma's women stepping up to the political table.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete omnes--
>
> After careful thought, I come before you today to
> announce my candidacy for the position of Rogator in
> Nova Roma.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:13:26 +0100

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

> To have such a subjective requirement is prone to even more abuse. Laws
> should be written objectively. Ie. the 3.00 fee, or no freebee email
> addresses as a point of contact, or some direct phone contact are objective
> benchmarks that can be applied to anyone.

They can obviously be applied to anyone but might not be accepted. Especially
the 3$ fee. We have already a lot of citizens decrying this in the principle
but as well in the implementation.

> Something akin to a cultural job
> can be entirely subjective and can alienate even more potential citizens. I
> am not convinced that this is a better choice at this point in time. I base
> this on my experience and recent termination of two of Senator Caeso Fabius's
> scribes. Not many citizens in NR want to "work" but observe and get their
> feet wet before becoming active. Each citizen (and pending citizen) should
> have the freedom to decide if they want to contribute their time to Nova
> Roma.

If people have to give something to get in, I think they might be more willing
to give some time rather than some money.

> I understand your concerns but we must have something that is equitable
> across the board that will effect everyone equally. In the end, forcing
> someone to work for their citizenship (to be approved) sounds suspiciously
> like slavery to me.

I am thinking of the people to whom 3$ means a lot. And unfortunately there is
a lot of them. Maybe we could propose a mix to let new citizens in, they could
pay the fee or do a small cultural job.

Very Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some thoughts on voting abuse
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:28:08 +0100

Salve Iunii Silani et Omnes,

> >I disagree. The Acadmia would love having more materials, the translators
> team
> >would appreciate some help, Apollonia Acta needs more researchers... All
> those
> >tasks can be implemented very simply and at once. No need to implement
> anything
> >special for this.
>
> Sure, but we are talking about a couple of hundred applicants a year, if not
> more. Someone would have to co-ordinate such an effort, and to be honest it
> is quite a large undertaking. I guess that it would take at least three
> people to manage such a project effectively. Such a scheme would probably
> come under the jurisdiction of the censors, so I'd be interested to hear
> their comments.

I agree with your statement.

> >> This is providing that the applicant has the time to contribute. I
> certainly
> >> didn't when I joined. Sorry Sexte Apolloni, again, an unweildy proposal
> that
> >> inhibits membership.
> >
> >The time to be given to those tasks will not be enormous. Just a few hours,
> if
> >not minutes. Just enough to keep the undesirable people at bay. Furthermore
> any
> >Rome lovers will appreciate to contribute to the community and may even find
> it
> >so enjoyable that they will stay active.
> >Too many citizens do not know how to participate or sometimes hesitate of
> doing
> >so. This could as well liberate a lot of energy.
>
> Also remember that some citizens do not wish to contribute time for whatever
> reason, personal or otherwise. When I first joined NR time was at a premium
> for me. I was, at the time, a nurse working a horrible shift pattern. In
> addition, I was coming towards the end of studying for a degree. I really
> could not have donated time to NR, even if I had wished to. I fully support
> any effort to encourage activity within NR, but it should remain voluntary.

I see your point. However, the fact to ask somebody to do or pay something
before getting in is the best way to keep bad people at bay.
In your case, you became citizen despite your difficult time. (I praise this!!)
However,I presume that you did not have much time even to read the Forum.
Furthermore, the Forum is opened to anyone, so there is no need to be a citizen
in order to participate. Becoming a citizen is a willing action. So I suspect
that willing people to become citizen would not mind giving some time on a
small task.

Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:39:03 +0100

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

>> I am thinking of the people to whom 3$ means a lot. And unfortunately there
>> is a lot of them. Maybe we could propose a mix to let new citizens in, they
>> could pay the fee or do a small cultural job.
>
> Sulla: I understand, but quite frankly this is a quarter (25%) of our
> yearly tax. I think we need to keep this in perspective. My original idea
> was $10.00, that is about 80% of our tax. If our new citizens are unwilling
> to pay 25% of their tax upon joining NR, then what is the likelyhood they
> would be their yearly tax? None.

This is my main concern about the fee system. So far, the tax is not compulsory
and people can be citizen without paying it. If we implement a fee to get
citizenship, then we make the tax, or part of it, being compulsory. This is
surely a good way to have more revenue but is as well a big change in our
policy. We might then change the reluctance of most of our citizens to pay the
tax to the reluctance of most people to seek for citizenship.
Imho, the risk reward on such a fee is negative.

Very Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:26:32 -0800

Avete Omnes,
----- Original Message -----
From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

> To have such a subjective requirement is prone to even more abuse. Laws
> should be written objectively. Ie. the 3.00 fee, or no freebee email
> addresses as a point of contact, or some direct phone contact are objective
> benchmarks that can be applied to anyone.

They can obviously be applied to anyone but might not be accepted. Especially
the 3$ fee. We have already a lot of citizens decrying this in the principle
but as well in the implementation.

Sulla: We have some people decrying it, I agree. This is why there are other objective benchmarks that have been suggested in the poll.

> Something akin to a cultural job
> can be entirely subjective and can alienate even more potential citizens. I
> am not convinced that this is a better choice at this point in time. I base
> this on my experience and recent termination of two of Senator Caeso Fabius's
> scribes. Not many citizens in NR want to "work" but observe and get their
> feet wet before becoming active. Each citizen (and pending citizen) should
> have the freedom to decide if they want to contribute their time to Nova
> Roma.

If people have to give something to get in, I think they might be more willing
to give some time rather than some money.

Sulla: That is possible, again, this is why I created the poll to gauge the response of the people. Personally I am torn between banning freebie email address (I am aware that wont fix the problem either) and instituting the $3.00 fee. I believe the $3.00 fee is at this point the best choice because that $3.00 can go to help offset the cost for conducting our Census (per the Lex Cornelia de Censo). Thus any need for the Censor office to rely on our central treasury would be diminished (if not eliminated altogether).

> I understand your concerns but we must have something that is equitable
> across the board that will effect everyone equally. In the end, forcing
> someone to work for their citizenship (to be approved) sounds suspiciously
> like slavery to me.

I am thinking of the people to whom 3$ means a lot. And unfortunately there is
a lot of them. Maybe we could propose a mix to let new citizens in, they could
pay the fee or do a small cultural job.

Sulla: I understand, but quite frankly this is a quarter (25%) of our yearly tax. I think we need to keep this in perspective. My original idea was $10.00, that is about 80% of our tax. If our new citizens are unwilling to pay 25% of their tax upon joining NR, then what is the likelyhood they would be their yearly tax? None.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul

Very Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:51:52 -0800

Avete Propraetor et Omnes,
----- Original Message -----
From: Sextus Apollonius Scipio
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

>> I am thinking of the people to whom 3$ means a lot. And unfortunately there
>> is a lot of them. Maybe we could propose a mix to let new citizens in, they
>> could pay the fee or do a small cultural job.
>
> Sulla: I understand, but quite frankly this is a quarter (25%) of our
> yearly tax. I think we need to keep this in perspective. My original idea
> was $10.00, that is about 80% of our tax. If our new citizens are unwilling
> to pay 25% of their tax upon joining NR, then what is the likelyhood they
> would be their yearly tax? None.

This is my main concern about the fee system. So far, the tax is not compulsory
and people can be citizen without paying it. If we implement a fee to get
citizenship, then we make the tax, or part of it, being compulsory. This is
surely a good way to have more revenue but is as well a big change in our
policy. We might then change the reluctance of most of our citizens to pay the
tax to the reluctance of most people to seek for citizenship.
Imho, the risk reward on such a fee is negative.

Sulla: I understand your concern on it. However, approving new citizenships is substantially different then the annual tax. We have a problem in that it is extremely easy for citizens to create duplicate citizenships. Get a free email address and within minutes you can have another citizenship (and this can happen multiple times). And, as it currently exists (and hopefully will be changed) those citizens are placed in Assuidi Centuries and Rural Tribes (ie. powerful votes). As I have stated before the implementation of a citizenship application fee is very consistent with other not-for-profit corporations. I can assure you that I will not support any attempt to make the annual tax payment a requirement. Again, I really think we need to keep some perspective. The Tax payment is an annual event. This citizenship application fee is a one time fee. Not only that but it will not be retroactive. Those of us who are citizens will not be required to pay. I hope this reassures you.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul

Very Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 15:40:11 -0000

Salve,

As a candidate for Rogator, I have been carefully monitoring the
discussion concerning spurious citizens and elimination of the
problem.

>From the postings I can not gauge how wide spread a problem that Nova
Roma has with spurious voters. The estimates that I can make ranges
from 10 spurious citizens to up to 1200 spurious citizens.

Some ideas to halt this practice include a small joining fee, banning
of certain email domain names, various forms of ID check, phone
contact paid for by Nova Roma's treasury, certification by provincial
governor. In the case of the last two if we can't afford to fund
the census laws to purge the rolls of spurious citizens, I suspect
that Nova Roma can ill afford to pay for long distance phone calls.
In many macronational jurisdictions the photocopying of
identification cards and/or electronic transmission is a felony.
Banning certain domain names is fairly useless as even a elementary
student can fake an email address and have replies to it rerouted
back to the "correct" email address. A small joining fee could
backfire and become an "immigration barrier" against legitimate
potential citizens as it is in effect the innocent paying a "fine."

I suggest a more realistic solution to the problem. A simple lex
that states "No person shall hold citizenship under more than one
Nova Roman name, nor shall possess more than one valid voter code.
Any person found in violation shall be assessed a fine of no less
than the equivilant of US$100.00 nor greater than US$1000.00 for
each falsely held citizenship."

It does not inflict the innocent with a fine under the guise of a
membership application fee. It does not cost the Nova Roman treasury
a single penny.

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebei - epigram reminder
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:13:13 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

Only a few days to go!! Take part in the epigram
contest!! Closing on November 10th!

To participate in this contest you have to write an
epigram, composed of two or four verses, with the
following scheme:
A: 13-15 syllables
B: 11-15 syllables

B must be shorter than A
An epigram with four verses should consist of ABAB

Some examples:

MARTIALIS:
Aspicis incomptis illum, Deciane, capillis,
cuius et ipse times triste supercilium,
qui loquitur Curios adsertoresque Camillos?
Nolito fronti credere: nupsit heri.

SAMUEL TAYLOR COLERIDGE:
What is an epigram? A dwarfish whole;
Its body brevity, and wit its soul.

PRESTON:
No humorist laughs at his own wheeze:
A snuff-box has no right to sneeze.

HILAIRE BELLOC:
Of old when folk lay sick and sorely tried,
The doctors gave them physic, and they died.

But here's a happier age; for now we know
Both how to make men sick and keep them so.
The Devil, having nothing else to do,
Went off to tempt My Lady Poltagrue.

My Lady, tempted by a private whim,
To his extreme annoyance, tempted him.
When I am dead, I hope it may be said:
His sins were scarlet, but his books were read.

The jury of this contest:
-Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
-Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus
-Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
-Manius Constantinus Serapio

Following categories will be used in judging:
-Roman theme � 10 points
-Content: humour, cleverness, � - 10 points
-Scheme � 5 points
-Language � 5 points

To participate, send an email (with your epigram and
Nova Roma name) to consulromanus@yahoo.com, with
"EPIGRAM" in the subject line.
Last day to submit an epigram is November 10th.

Participate in this contest!

A wonderful prize will be granted to the winner: The
winner of this contest will receive this nice book
(from Amazon): "A Garden of Roman Verse" (J Paul Getty
Museum Pubns); 1998; Hardcover; 80 pages

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 3
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:57:16 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

A new and exciting contest, offered by Aedilis Plebis
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix:

PHOTO CONTEST

A very simple contest: 10 photos of Roman-era
monuments to recognize.

10 days long one photo will be posted each day. The
photo will contain a whole monument, or a very large
part of it.

You can participate by sending an email to
consulromanus@yahoo.com (put �PHOTO� in the subject
line), with your Nova Roma name and the correct
answer.

Today's new photo can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/consulromanus/photo.html

Different kind of answers are possible, as shown in
this example:
A photo of the Pantheon can be described as:
Pantheon
Pantheon, Rome
Temple of Agrippa
Pantheon, Italy
Agrippa�s temple (Pantheon)
�
These are all correct answers; just make clear that
you recognize the monument on the photo!

All correct answers will be put together each day, and
my totally innocent two year old neighbour will pick
out a winner at random.

Everyone�s results will be presented each day in a
hit-parade.

*********
Today's winner:
Julilla Sempronia Magna

Congratulations!!

All others who have also submitted a correct answer:
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Tiberius Annaeus Otho
Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Quintus Quinctilius Varus Galili
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus
Alexander Tarquitius Sulla

The correct answer:
Arch of Constantine, in Rome

*********

So participate as much as possible to become the best
and greatest �monument-specialist�!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:46:10 -0800

Avete Omnes,

That is also in the works as well. My accensus Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, candidate for Praetor is working on something similar. Once completed my colleague will be able to review it in time for the December summoning of the Comitia Populi.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 7:40 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Voter Fraud and a simple solution

Salve,

As a candidate for Rogator, I have been carefully monitoring the
discussion concerning spurious citizens and elimination of the
problem.

From the postings I can not gauge how wide spread a problem that Nova
Roma has with spurious voters. The estimates that I can make ranges
from 10 spurious citizens to up to 1200 spurious citizens.

Some ideas to halt this practice include a small joining fee, banning
of certain email domain names, various forms of ID check, phone
contact paid for by Nova Roma's treasury, certification by provincial
governor. In the case of the last two if we can't afford to fund
the census laws to purge the rolls of spurious citizens, I suspect
that Nova Roma can ill afford to pay for long distance phone calls.
In many macronational jurisdictions the photocopying of
identification cards and/or electronic transmission is a felony.
Banning certain domain names is fairly useless as even a elementary
student can fake an email address and have replies to it rerouted
back to the "correct" email address. A small joining fee could
backfire and become an "immigration barrier" against legitimate
potential citizens as it is in effect the innocent paying a "fine."

I suggest a more realistic solution to the problem. A simple lex
that states "No person shall hold citizenship under more than one
Nova Roman name, nor shall possess more than one valid voter code.
Any person found in violation shall be assessed a fine of no less
than the equivilant of US$100.00 nor greater than US$1000.00 for
each falsely held citizenship."

It does not inflict the innocent with a fine under the guise of a
membership application fee. It does not cost the Nova Roman treasury
a single penny.

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:14:46 +0100

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

>> This is my main concern about the fee system. So far, the tax is not
>> compulsory and people can be citizen without paying it. If we implement a
>> fee to get citizenship, then we make the tax, or part of it, being
>> compulsory.This is surely a good way to have more revenue but is as well a
>> big change in our policy. We might then change the reluctance of most of our
>> citizens to pay the tax to the reluctance of most people to seek for
>> citizenship.
>> Imho, the risk reward on such a fee is negative.
>
> Sulla: I understand your concern on it. However, approving new
> citizenships is substantially different then the annual tax. We have a
> problem in that it is extremely easy for citizens to create duplicate
> citizenships. Get a free email address and within minutes you can have
> another citizenship (and this can happen multiple times). And, as it
> currently exists (and hopefully will be changed) those citizens are placed in
> Assuidi Centuries and Rural Tribes (ie. powerful votes). As I have stated
> before the implementation of a citizenship application fee is very consistent
> with other not-for-profit corporations. I can assure you that I will not
> support any attempt to make the annual tax payment a requirement. Again, I
> really think we need to keep some perspective. The Tax payment is an annual
> event. This citizenship application fee is a one time fee. Not only that
> but it will not be retroactive. Those of us who are citizens will not be
> required to pay. I hope this reassures you.

We know most of our citizens do not pay the tax. I guess something like 2/3 of
them. If on top of that, we impose a fee at the entrance, I am afraid that most
people will not join NR at all. It could be for principle reasons or for
financial reasons.

Very Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:24:33 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

>> This is my main concern about the fee system. So far, the tax is not
>> compulsory and people can be citizen without paying it. If we implement a
>> fee to get citizenship, then we make the tax, or part of it, being
>> compulsory.This is surely a good way to have more revenue but is as well a
>> big change in our policy. We might then change the reluctance of most of our
>> citizens to pay the tax to the reluctance of most people to seek for
>> citizenship.
>> Imho, the risk reward on such a fee is negative.
>
> Sulla: I understand your concern on it. However, approving new
> citizenships is substantially different then the annual tax. We have a
> problem in that it is extremely easy for citizens to create duplicate
> citizenships. Get a free email address and within minutes you can have
> another citizenship (and this can happen multiple times). And, as it
> currently exists (and hopefully will be changed) those citizens are placed in
> Assuidi Centuries and Rural Tribes (ie. powerful votes). As I have stated
> before the implementation of a citizenship application fee is very consistent
> with other not-for-profit corporations. I can assure you that I will not
> support any attempt to make the annual tax payment a requirement. Again, I
> really think we need to keep some perspective. The Tax payment is an annual
> event. This citizenship application fee is a one time fee. Not only that
> but it will not be retroactive. Those of us who are citizens will not be
> required to pay. I hope this reassures you.

We know most of our citizens do not pay the tax. I guess something like 2/3 of
them. If on top of that, we impose a fee at the entrance, I am afraid that most
people will not join NR at all. It could be for principle reasons or for
financial reasons.

Sulla: Its worse than that. Only 14% of our population paid the tax. And, I do not share your conclusion, I subscribe to the exact opposite conclusion. If our citizens paid an entrance fee at the beginning it shows commitment and that they value NR enough to pay a very small processing fee. I think that if we had this from the beginning (like we had when we had to surface mail our applications) we would have a larger number of active citizens, because it creates a vested interest. Lets look at it another way. Have you not noticed that there seem to be a large amount of citizens who are still active who were here in the very first months that NR was founded. I think there is a direct correlation between those of us who had to take the time and effort to mail out our applications and wait for a response. Unlike today when MANY of our citizens just fill out another form on the internet. I think that if our perspective citizens were genuinely interested in Nova Roma they not only would pay the application fee, but they would pay the tax as well and that this can only strengthen Nova Roma by bringing in dedicated and active citizens.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul

Very Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 5
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:33:14 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?

Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones�

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, �

Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don�t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting �QUIZ�
in the subject line.

The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 4:
This notorious tyrant who squandered state resources
on orgies for the Roman aristocracy... (Caligula)

What did the Romans call Spain? (Hispania)

What does �salve� mean? (hello, be well,...)

What does MCMLXXXII mean? (1982)

This proponent of Christian orthodoxy outlawed
paganism in the empire,... (Theodosius)

-----
Points so far:
Sextus Apollonius Scipio � 20
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus � 20
Julilla Sempronia Magna � 20
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus � 20
Spurius Postumius Tubertus � 18
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix � 18
Titus Labienus Fortunatus � 15
Marcus Octavius Germanicus � 14
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus � 13
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus � 10
Marcus Arminius Maior � 10
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola � 10
Quintus Lanius Paulinus � 9,5
Lithia Cassia � 9
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus � 5
Aulus Octavius Serenus � 4

-----

Here are today's questions:

***************

1. What does the phrase "sic transit gloria mundi"
mean?
a. I'm going to be sick on a journey
b. Wow! She's beautiful!
c. Thus passes the glory of the world
d. Thus did Gloria travel around the world

2. Who was NOT a member of the Second Triumverate?
a. Antonius
b. Octavianus
c. Cicero
d. Lepidus

3. Who was the last Emperor of The Western Roman
Empire according to Gibbon?

4. Who wrote a famous play about Julius Caesar?
a. Shakespeare
b. Milton
c. Marlowe
d. Johnson

5. Whom did Marcus Antonius (1st cent. BC) fall in
love with?

***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Candidacy for Rogator
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:48:38 +0100 (CET)

Salve, Renata Corva,

Welcome aboard! I'm glad to see, that there are also
women running for offices. All the best to you!

--- "Chantal G. Whittington" wrote:
> After careful thought, I come before you today to
> announce my candidacy for the position of Rogator in
> Nova Roma.

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------

__________________________________________________________________

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
M�chten Sie mit einem Gru� antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:59:19 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites

--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Some ideas to halt this practice include a small
> joining fee, banning
> of certain email domain names, various forms of ID
> check, phone
> contact paid for by Nova Roma's treasury,
> certification by provincial
> governor.

Well, I am not going to comment on this proposed
measures, since we all agree, that they are - except
the last one - impracticable. Nevertheless, what
speaks against the participation of the governors in
the process? Imho, this would be a simple but
efficient task for any governor who takes his/her
office serious.

> I suggest a more realistic solution to the problem.
> A simple lex
> that states "No person shall hold citizenship under
> more than one
> Nova Roman name, nor shall possess more than one
> valid voter code.
> Any person found in violation shall be assessed a
> fine of no less
> than the equivilant of US$100.00 nor greater than
> US$1000.00 for
> each falsely held citizenship."

A simple solution, I agree. And a good one, too. I
appreciated also honoured senator Sulla's posting
concerning this matter and I will look forward to this
new lex.

But as I stated above, I still think, that a small
change in the procedure involving the governors would
be useful. A future lex would then be the ultima
ratio, if still some spurious citizens appear.

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------

__________________________________________________________________

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
M�chten Sie mit einem Gru� antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:01:41 -0800 (PST)

--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> wrote:

> I suggest a more realistic solution to the problem.
> A simple lex
> that states "No person shall hold citizenship under
> more than one
> Nova Roman name, nor shall possess more than one
> valid voter code.
> Any person found in violation shall be assessed a
> fine of no less
> than the equivilant of US$100.00 nor greater than
> US$1000.00 for
> each falsely held citizenship."
>
> It does not inflict the innocent with a fine under
> the guise of a
> membership application fee. It does not cost the
> Nova Roman treasury
> a single penny.
>

Salve,
Having a law against Multiple citizenship will
certainly be better than the present situation,
however this Lex would do nothing more than set a
fine. It would still be easy to set up multiple
citizenships, and hard to catch unless someone was
unable to refrain from discussing the fraud.

Someone wishing to commit fraud could still create as
many bogus citizens as he wished, and the chances of
getting caught would be very low as long as he kept
his mouth shut.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 18:39:25 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> --- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@a...> wrote:
> <snip>

>
> Well, I am not going to comment on this proposed
> measures, since we all agree, that they are - except
> the last one - impracticable. Nevertheless, what
> speaks against the participation of the governors in
> the process? Imho, this would be a simple but
> efficient task for any governor who takes his/her
> office serious.

I lumped that one in the same bed as the phone calls solution. That
one is equally impractical as the rest. Not all provinces are
created equal. For example my home province, Nova Britannia consists
of 6 of the United States. Unless the governor gets lucky and the
person he/she is suppose to interview is a local the phone
calls/travel expenses can get very expensive. Imagine the problems
that the governor of Thule would encounter considering that his/her
province consists of 5 seperate macronations one of which (Iceland)
is half an ocean away from the other four). Even the most dedicated
governor could ill afford such expenses out of his/her own pocket.
Which goes back to the if Nova Roma can't afford to fund a lawful
census of the existing population.....

> A simple solution, I agree. And a good one, too. I
> appreciated also honoured senator Sulla's posting
> concerning this matter and I will look forward to this
> new lex.

I too look forward to seeing a lex drafted along those lines, and to
see what penalties will be imposed if found guilty of holding
multiple voter codes.

> But as I stated above, I still think, that a small
> change in the procedure involving the governors would
> be useful. A future lex would then be the ultima
> ratio, if still some spurious citizens appear.

There is some question as to how widespread a problem this may be.
The one group that might have an idea would be the current Rogators
who may notice strange voting patterns (ie voter codes xyzpdq,
elmnop, 123456, ect, ect ect, ALWAYS vote the same) that would
indicate an investigation may be warranted.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 18:57:04 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
> Having a law against Multiple citizenship will
> certainly be better than the present situation,
> however this Lex would do nothing more than set a
> fine. It would still be easy to set up multiple
> citizenships, and hard to catch unless someone was
> unable to refrain from discussing the fraud.
>
> Someone wishing to commit fraud could still create as
> many bogus citizens as he wished, and the chances of
> getting caught would be very low as long as he kept
> his mouth shut.

Laws are like locks, they only keep the honest people honest.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Fee for joining?
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 19:36:28 -0000

Salve,

I sniped all text below. A brief post to not tire anyone: You know
all my worries and many times I stated that we must watch carefully
the tax problema on a diverse tax, observing the situation of each
country and the exchange rates. This is my main flag on running for
questor (... and I�d love see the position of others candidates,
consules et praetores as well...). I will support this Senate measure
with all forces, to see my province and consequently Nova Roma
growing on 'tax-paid' Assidui more than one-year old.

None trusts Nova Roma just on the �first sight� to send money on
application time. There is a time for trusting. Many are suspitious
of NR, many still are suspitious on this very time. Many are thinking
if NR really is worthy of their anual tax just now. People is not so
naive... people try to not be so naive...

I�m always realistic adressing to you. Be aware of taxes, they can
kill the growing of NR. And remember the problems of transfering
money form country to country. If all anual tax (all citizens) just
one time sent (collected by the governor or questor) is filled of
problems, imagine antecipate the problem for small money, all times
on the year, on people that really doesn�t know much about Nova Roma.
On USA there isn�t much problem transfering money... on Europe the
problem grows... on Latin America we have a difference of exchange
rates killing (Oh, Iove Optimus Maximus, none remembers or cares that
to discuss, just me! What a hell! NR is not the neighboordhood
association!)... and Asia, Africa the situation of sending/exchange
rate must be worse.

Just think about... all citizens and candidates! I�m not arguing, I
pay for not arguing. If I was not concerned about this I�d not run
for questor. It is not a defiance. It is a worry. Think about, talk
about, not argue about, nor fight about...

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
FAUTUS FOR QUESTOR, FAUSTUS POR PLEBEIAN AEDILE!!!

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 3
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:33:32 +0100

[>] > The correct answer:
[>] > Arch of Constantine, in Rome

Salve Cicatrix,
But don't I get any points for saying yesterday that it was definitely not
the Arch of Titus ? :-)
Vale,
Diana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"M. Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Sat, 9 Nov 2002 07:01:59 +1100

Sulla,

I suspect that the legality of sending identity documents might be questionable in other places as well.

I have seen on this list several people say they have had copies made for their employers, universities, or whoever.

But here in Australia, it is common practice for government departments to photocopy drivers licenses etc, despite the illegality. So just because someone says "It must be legal here because this organisation took a copy of it" might not necessarily be a correct or fully informed opinion.

And realistically, these days, with the technology available to all of us, faking a photocopy of a drivers licence would not be very difficult at all - since things like its color, paper quality, lamination etc are all not observable in a photocopy.

And why are we even talking about photographic id when:
1) I can cut and paste on a scanned image of my photo licence to make my photo look like Elle McPherson and
2) I have never met a NR citizen face to face, and so would not know them from Emperor Claudius.

This pursuit of photo id's is pointless, and in more provinces than mine, illegal.

Marcus Flavius Aurelius
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
marcus.flavius@bigpond.com
ICQ: 4895187

Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma

> Ave,
>
> I would love to implement that option, but it has been made clear that at least in Australia that would be illegal. And, we do not know what other countries have such legislation in affect.
>
> Such a shame...I like that solution too.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:38 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
>
>
> AVE CONSVL SVLLA
>
> I sent my vote, but I have some doubt.
>
> I don't think any of the three solutions is the right one.
>
> -Paying for citizenship would lower the number of new incoming
> citizens.
>
> -Banning free e-mail providers would nearly get the same result.
> "Ok, you can become a citizen of Nova Roma, but you have to pay an e-
> mail provider because we don't consider you free one."
> My e-mail provider works well, and it is free, as well as the ones of
> many other citizens.
>
> -A telephone call to each new citizen would be too expensive for our
> Treasury. We have a few money and we must use it to reach financial
> stability.
>
> However, the fourth option says "Things run well as they are", and
> this is not the case. Without any doubt things must be changed.
>
> Isn't it possible to realize Diana Moravia's proposal?
> Within the end of the year (for those who join Nova Roma in December,
> within following December) new citizens should send by e-mail a
> scanned copy of a personal document (Photo + data: therefore even the
> supermarket-card would be ok) to the Censores.
> It isn't impossible to have something scanned today.
>
> OPTIME VALE
> MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some thoughts on voting abuse
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:07:51 EST

In a message dated 11/8/02 5:22:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk writes:

> Of course, I in no way advocate multiple voting, I just approach the problem
> in a realistic manner. If an individual is determined enough, they will
> defraud the system no matter what checks we have in place. In actual terms,
> a couple of extra votes would, in all probability, make very little
> difference to an election outcome.
>
>

Salvete

Actually it would. We use a system were one additional vote can change a
century result, giving that century's vote to the candidate the centuries did
not want to elect.
Currently the we on the law list are discussing leges to punish people who
are multiple voting.
But it would be better if the people simply acted with responsibility and
honesty.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
Consular Candidate

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some thoughts on voting abuse
From:	"danedwardsuk" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:49:56 -0000

Salve Quinte Fabi,

>Currently the we on the law list are discussing leges to punish people who
>are multiple voting.

What law list is this? I subscribe to NovaRomaLaws and I know of no such discussion....unless Yahoo is playing up again!

>But it would be better if the people simply acted with responsibility and
>honesty.

I can only agree most vehemently. If only it were so, alas.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:01:38 -0800

Avete M. Flavius et Omnes,

I know (I work for an ISP and am surrounded by computer geeks). I also own a scanner and am aware how easy it is to "improve" documents. And I agree that sending in legal documents might be illegal in other macronations (we just only know of Australia at the moment).

As I believe I have stated before I do not expect there to be a magic bullet to end this sort of corruption (that is really what it is). All I can do as Consul is to take steps to try to address the issue in a way that protects the voice of the People with minimal impact on the State. I have to weigh the balance between those of us who are already citizens of Nova Roma vs. those people who are not yet citizens. This is an important balancing act that I am not taking lightly. My primary objective is to protect the voice of the People. Would you like your vote to be diminished because another citizen made 10 duplicate citizenships? Currently that is exactly what is happening. None of us are aware how extensive the problem is, none of us except those who are doing it, that is.

It is unfortunate that this type of legislation even needs to be considered, but we must, to protect the voice of the People from having our voices diminished because of duplicate citizenships. If I did not care about new growth I would have tried to promulgate a lex that would remove the online citizenship application or I would have maintained my initial proposal of the $10 application fee. Or even made our tax payment compulsory upon admission to Nova Roma, no I have not taken such extreme measures. I like growth, but I am not all consumed by it. Numbers are not where our power lays, its the quality of citizens that is where our strength lies.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Flavius Aurelius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma

Sulla,

I suspect that the legality of sending identity documents might be questionable in other places as well.

I have seen on this list several people say they have had copies made for their employers, universities, or whoever.

But here in Australia, it is common practice for government departments to photocopy drivers licenses etc, despite the illegality. So just because someone says "It must be legal here because this organisation took a copy of it" might not necessarily be a correct or fully informed opinion.

And realistically, these days, with the technology available to all of us, faking a photocopy of a drivers licence would not be very difficult at all - since things like its color, paper quality, lamination etc are all not observable in a photocopy.

And why are we even talking about photographic id when:
1) I can cut and paste on a scanned image of my photo licence to make my photo look like Elle McPherson and
2) I have never met a NR citizen face to face, and so would not know them from Emperor Claudius.

This pursuit of photo id's is pointless, and in more provinces than mine, illegal.

Marcus Flavius Aurelius
Durovernium, Australia Orientalis Superior
marcus.flavius@bigpond.com
ICQ: 4895187

Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma

> Ave,
>
> I would love to implement that option, but it has been made clear that at least in Australia that would be illegal. And, we do not know what other countries have such legislation in affect.
>
> Such a shame...I like that solution too.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Manius Constantinus Serapio
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:38 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: New poll for Nova-Roma
>
>
> AVE CONSVL SVLLA
>
> I sent my vote, but I have some doubt.
>
> I don't think any of the three solutions is the right one.
>
> -Paying for citizenship would lower the number of new incoming
> citizens.
>
> -Banning free e-mail providers would nearly get the same result.
> "Ok, you can become a citizen of Nova Roma, but you have to pay an e-
> mail provider because we don't consider you free one."
> My e-mail provider works well, and it is free, as well as the ones of
> many other citizens.
>
> -A telephone call to each new citizen would be too expensive for our
> Treasury. We have a few money and we must use it to reach financial
> stability.
>
> However, the fourth option says "Things run well as they are", and
> this is not the case. Without any doubt things must be changed.
>
> Isn't it possible to realize Diana Moravia's proposal?
> Within the end of the year (for those who join Nova Roma in December,
> within following December) new citizens should send by e-mail a
> scanned copy of a personal document (Photo + data: therefore even the
> supermarket-card would be ok) to the Censores.
> It isn't impossible to have something scanned today.
>
> OPTIME VALE
> MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:30:41 +0100 (CET)

Salve Quinte Cassie

--- quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> Imagine the problems
> that the governor of Thule would encounter
> considering that his/her
> province consists of 5 seperate macronations one of
> which (Iceland)
> is half an ocean away from the other four). Even

I agree. But I myself wasn't thinking of a face to
face meeting with new citizens, and neither of
phonecalls. But what about a two step application:

1. online -> Censors hand the application to the
responsible governor.

2. the governor contacts the applicant through
snailmail and sends him a second form.

Imho, with this, most of the *smelly* cases could be
avoided - and it would have a nice side-effect: the
applicants get in touch staright away with their
provincia.

> the most dedicated
> governor could ill afford such expenses out of
> his/her own pocket.

Why his own pocket? Every provincia has to send in a
budget and has the right to claim a certain percentage
of its tax-income (which is btw another topic to be
discussed...). So, there is money around - not much,
but it should be enough, imho.

> Which goes back to the if Nova Roma can't afford to
> fund a lawful
> census of the existing population.....

That is, indeed a problem.

> There is some question as to how widespread a
> problem this may be.
> The one group that might have an idea would be the
> current Rogators
> who may notice strange voting patterns (ie voter
> codes xyzpdq,
> elmnop, 123456, ect, ect ect, ALWAYS vote the same)
> that would
> indicate an investigation may be warranted.

Yes, but what about the privacy? Just because two
fellow citizens always vote the same does not
necessarily indicate fraud. And, I do not think that
the rogators have the right to start any investigation
on their own. Maybe something, that should be
regulated in a law, too.

Vale bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------

__________________________________________________________________

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de
M�chten Sie mit einem Gru� antworten? http://grusskarten.yahoo.de


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 3
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:11:27 +0000 (GMT)

--- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:
> [>] > The correct answer:
> [>] > Arch of Constantine, in Rome
>
> Salve Cicatrix,
> But don't I get any points for saying yesterday that
> it was definitely not
> the Arch of Titus ? :-)
> Vale,
> Diana

Well... Because it's you... 0,5 points! OK?

Vale bene, amica mea!

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:39:35 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@y...>
wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassie

No need to be too formal, Calvus works for me. <G>

> 1. online -> Censors hand the application to the
> responsible governor.
>
> 2. the governor contacts the applicant through
> snailmail and sends him a second form.
>
> Imho, with this, most of the *smelly* cases could be
> avoided - and it would have a nice side-effect: the
> applicants get in touch staright away with their
> provincia.

I like that idea, even if its merely a form and a form letter
(optional) it does add a slightly more personal touch. The only
problem being money. While cheaper snail mail still costs, albeit a
lot less than international phone calls. Even if the budgeted money
runs out and the governor has to pony up out of his/her own pocket it
would be a much smaller dent on the wallet than calls and travel.

> Yes, but what about the privacy? Just because two
> fellow citizens always vote the same does not
> necessarily indicate fraud. And, I do not think that
> the rogators have the right to start any investigation
> on their own. Maybe something, that should be
> regulated in a law, too.

Voter privacy MUST be maintained 100% of the time, even if it means
that some voter fraud happens. I will address this further with you
privately and once you see my response you'll understand why. For
the list readers, what I am going to write privately is merely
patterns that rogators should be aware of that would indicate
potential voter fraud and in no way violates anyones privacy.

Personally, I don't think that Nova Roman voter fraud is a major
problem unless a one person holds a heck of a lot of citizenships.
Even if a person had 100 citizenship and voter codes those votes
would be spread out over the tribes and centuries. Unless through
dumb luck or some corruption that would be so extreme that even Helen
Keller could see it plain as day, that one person would be unlikely
to hold enough votes in any given tribe or century so as to greatly
influence the outcome of any individual tribal/centurian aggragate
vote.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:39:22 -0000


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Apologies for duplicate postings
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:42:28 -0000

Salve,

I did not mean to post the same thing twice. Yahoo "crashed" and I
since I wasn't sure it went through I posted it again.

Vale,

Q. Cassius CAlvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RES: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:29:46 -0200

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

>> I am thinking of the people to whom 3$ means a lot. And unfortunately
there
>> is a lot of them. Maybe we could propose a mix to let new citizens in,
they
>> could pay the fee or do a small cultural job.
>
> Sulla: I understand, but quite frankly this is a quarter (25%) of our
> yearly tax. I think we need to keep this in perspective. My original
idea
> was $10.00, that is about 80% of our tax. If our new citizens are
unwilling
> to pay 25% of their tax upon joining NR, then what is the likelyhood
they
> would be their yearly tax? None.

This is my main concern about the fee system. So far, the tax is not
compulsory
and people can be citizen without paying it. If we implement a fee to get
citizenship, then we make the tax, or part of it, being compulsory. This
is
surely a good way to have more revenue but is as well a big change in our
policy. We might then change the reluctance of most of our citizens to pay
the
tax to the reluctance of most people to seek for citizenship.
Imho, the risk reward on such a fee is negative.

Titus Arminius Genialis: And to complete Scipio's words, we must remember
that NR is a CULTURAL community, and not a FIANCIAL one.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Mensagem enviada est� livre de v�rus.
Enviada por GNBS atrav�s do MSO2K.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 19/9/2002

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RES: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:22:53 -0200

Salvete Consul et Onmes,

I think Sextus A. Scipio's idea is very interesting, although perhaps this
could inhibit citizens to join.
Some of them may be too shy or may not have knowledges of computering or
writing correclty to do this kind of works.
Perhaps these works could be "chosable", I mean, if the newcoming citizen
want to to this work, he gets some advantage (e.g. centuria points or tax
discount).
I don't, it's just a suggestion...

Valete,
Titus Arminius Genialis.
-----Mensagem original-----
De: Sextus Apollonius Scipio [mailto:scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms]
Enviada em: sexta-feira, 8 de novembro de 2002 05:19
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?

Salve Honored Consul and Omnes,

I have been reading this discussion since the beginning. It is of course a
very
important subject as it will set up the first contact for the new comers
to
Nova Roma. You may know, if you read my financial platform (did you? ;O) )
that
NR'S recognition in the macroworld is very dear to me.
I fully understand both sides: the need to ask for a token for getting in
so
that undesirable people stay away and the difficulty that some good
citizens
might have to pay 2 or 3$.
Something strikes me. Why should this token be financial? We could easily
ask
new comers to do a small work for Nova Roma during the first weeks of
presence,
like a translation task, writing an essay, gathering some information
etc...
IMO, this will be acceptable and understandable for both sides and
furthermore
might accelerate the involvement of the new citizens in the life of our
Republic.
I am humbly asking the Honored Consul Sulla to consider this proposal in
the
new set of laws to come.

Respectfully,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Mensagem enviada est� livre de v�rus.
Enviada por GNBS atrav�s do MSO2K.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 19/9/2002

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:45:12 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Lucius Equitius" <vergil@s...> wrote:
> Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD
>
> In the matter of multiple applications and fraudulent citizenship,
there is an Censorial Edict that
> does give us remedy

<snip for brevity>

Thank you honored Censor for this information and your wisdom.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution (A CORRECTION)
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:48:46 -0000

Salve,

Forgive me, I realized I made a typo:

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@a...> wrote:

> Personally, I don't think that Nova Roman voter fraud is a major
> problem unless a one person holds a heck of a lot of citizenships.
> Even if a person had 100 citizenship and voter codes those votes
> would be spread out over the tribes and centuries

That should read 10 citizenships, not 100. 100 would obviously fall
under holding a heck of a lot of citizenships catagory.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:52:18 -0800

Titus Arminius Genialis: And to complete Scipio's words, we must remember
that NR is a CULTURAL community, and not a FIANCIAL one.

Sulla: Actually that is not entirely accurate. If we were just a cultural
organization one wouldnt need to pay at all, because all of those features
in NR are free to anyone (the lists, the sodalitas, face to face meetings),
one does not need to be a citzen to participate freely in any of those
venues. The issue that is being discussed affects our laws and system of
government, a far different tanget than the cultural face of Nova Roma.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Mensagem enviada est� livre de v�rus.
Enviada por GNBS atrav�s do MSO2K.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 19/9/2002

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution (A CORRECTION)
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:55:17 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Even 10 duplicate applications can make a substantial difference when you compare it to our past voting turnout.

On average in December elections we have about a 30% voter turnout (250 people)

On non-magisterial elections we average about a 15% voter turnout (125 people).

The lowest voter turnout I can recall was 8%. Just 8%.

Please feel free to check the achieves.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 2:48 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution (A CORRECTION)

Salve,

Forgive me, I realized I made a typo:

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@a...> wrote:

> Personally, I don't think that Nova Roman voter fraud is a major
> problem unless a one person holds a heck of a lot of citizenships.
> Even if a person had 100 citizenship and voter codes those votes
> would be spread out over the tribes and centuries

That should read 10 citizenships, not 100. 100 would obviously fall
under holding a heck of a lot of citizenships catagory.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:34:42 -0500

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

In the matter of multiple applications and fraudulent citizenship, there is an Censorial Edict that
does give us remedy. We have used this to remove files of those who were found to be underage, but so far we have not discovered proof of multiple identities. We have had multiple applications that may have been attempts to join different Gens when the application was not responded to, or was denied on the first. Also, we have had attempted applications from nonexistent addresses.

Where there was suspicion of voter fraud checks were done on the source of votes. There was found attempts to cast multiple votes from single sources by 'trying out' various combinations of voters codes.

I also think that Xerox copies of Drivers License or Student ID's do not constitute what has been mentioned as unlawful "attempts to copy" photo ID's.

I still believe that signed application forms sent by 'snail mail', where a Citizen ID and Voters code would then be sent to the address of record, is the best solution for the time being. This might even be the best permanent solution. Once an address/identification is verified in this way further correspondence can be carried out via internet. This would cost little as it would be the applicant who would supply the Self Addressed Stamped Envelope (SASE). This would have the further benefit of reducing the number of 'frivolous' applications.

Applications from various continents could be sent to duly appointed Censorial Scribae in those continents to avoid excessive postage and delay.

Valete

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/censor-2000-04-24-ii.html
Censorial Edict
Beginning immediately any citizen who puts false information on a citizenship application will immediately have their citizenship removed and will be barred from reapplying for Nova Roman citizenship for a period of 2 years.

This means an additional spreadsheet will be prepared to house that information, and can at the discretion of the Censors be published on the Nova Roma website, since it does not fall under the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Fraud and a simple solution (A CORRECTION)
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:16:17 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Even 10 duplicate applications can make a substantial difference
when you compare it to our past voting turnout.
>
> On average in December elections we have about a 30% voter turnout
(250 people)
>
> On non-magisterial elections we average about a 15% voter turnout
(125 people).
>
> The lowest voter turnout I can recall was 8%. Just 8%.
>
> Please feel free to check the achieves.
>

Thank you for posting that, I am aware of the dismally poor voter
turnouts. Wonder how many were unaware just how bad it is. My
father had a saying, "If you can't be bothered to excercise your
right to vote, don't be bothered to exercise your right to b____."
Since I vote... <Grin>

That is another problem, while tied to voter fraud, but a seperate
problem that should be looked at. Why do so few Nova Romans actually
vote? Some ideas off the top of my head.

1) Many of the citizens on the censorial roles have long left Nova
Roma because they joined on a whim and lost interest.

2) Turned off by negative campaigning, and negative politics...

3) Think their opinion doesn't matter so why bother....

4) Don't understand the issue(s) so rather than make an ill-informed
decision don't vote.

I'm sure there are a few dozen other reasons.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Declaration of Candidacy for PRAETOR
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:56:04 -0300 (ART)

Salvete Quirites

I, Marcus Arminius Maior, declare that i am candidate
for the position of Praetor of Nova Roma, for the year
2756 a.u.c.

I am brazilian, and 31 years old. I joined Nova Roma
in july, 2753 auc (2000 AD), and since them i was
elected Aedilis Plebeius (2754) and Tribunis Plebis
(2755).
I'm Senator, Propraetor of Provincia Brasilia, and
censorial scribe.

If elected Praetor, i will put my efforts to the
improvement of our legal system.
I have made some small steps in this direction; i
revised our archives to confirm the texts of our
current laws, and discovered that one of our laws was
forgotten since 1999 (the Lex Iunia Cornelia). I put
all our 58 laws in a single MS Word archive, that is
the the 'files' section of the NovaRomaLaws group. My
plan is to build a glossary of terms, and working
groups to

Some attention will be put to our Tabularium.
Currently, im working in a index of edicts, provincial
edicts, decreta and Senatus Consulta to help the
scriba Julilla Sempronia to update the Tabularium.
Next year, i promise that the Tabularium will be
updated (currently, only the 'laws' section can be
considered fully updated).

The moderation of the main list is in charge of the
Praetores, so my proposal is to have a staff of
moderators, perhaps four or six, with half of this
staff choosen by each Praetor.

Well, Quirites, here are my proposals. I am at your
disposal to answer your questions, or to better
explain my platform.

Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Tribunus Plebis

_______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! GeoCities
Tudo para criar o seu site: ferramentas f�ceis de usar, espa�o de sobra e acess�rios.
http://br.geocities.yahoo.com/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/