Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea...Response to G. Modius Athanasius
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 9 Nov 2002 19:40:44 EST

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to G. Modius Athanasius. Salvete.

It is very gratifying to see the idea of local NR groups picking up on the
list. I believe that the lex concerning such organizations would have to be
very detailed as we already have some different structures connected with NR
at present. We have the various legion/cohort formations with their attached
dependents & associates; gens located primarily in a specific locality, and
large urban cities with a mix of both military and civilians. I think we
should also consider who will be the official representative for NR in a new
colonia or municipa--the provincial governor, elected magistrates, military
officers, senators, pontiffs OR should we have local decurions and tribunes
as the officials? These are questions that will require a great deal of
thought. It boggles the mind!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining? A response to my Galeria cousin.
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:48:11 EST

Salve, cousin.

I believe we should hold off on colleges unless we have a citizen who is a
member of the faculty or is a student. We definitely should make sure that
all Roman re-enactment groups and related historical re-enactment
organizations get a copy. Many of the legios do not know about us and there
are many groups like the SCA, Kingdom of Acre, Celtica, and such who have
sound and scholarly interest in Rome but do not know us yet. Please remember
that no minor may join NR without their parents' permission and since we are
a religious organization (as well as cultural) this might be a violation of
the US Constitution. I know that three county & city school rejected free
literature (books on Wicca & Paganism) because of the possible repercussions.
Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Action & Responsibility
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:54:44 -0800 (PST)

Good God Woman Engish Please some of us are as dumb as a tack.mainly just me!
Jamie Johnston <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
C. Minucius Scaevola wrote:

> Surely, then, your own inaction in not committing every single second of
> your life to fighting for world peace makes you responsible for all the
> deaths that would not have occurred otherwise? In, say, fifty years of
> concerted effort, surely you would have saved at least one life, and
> very likely more. Shouldn't your inaction count legally as the action of
> murder?

Well, there are three issues here that I can see at first glance. One is whether inaction counts as action. The second is whether consequently responsibility can be assigned for the results of inaction. Thirdly, whether failing to prevent something carries the same degree of moral culpability as causing the thing to occur. You also raise the equivalent question of legal culpability, but I hope you will permit me simply to state that I don't consider the purpose of law to be to enforce morality, and therefore I'm content to let that particular issue lie outside my contribution to this discussion.

On the first issue, as I've made clear, I think that inaction is action, and choosing not to act is a choice, and choosing not to choose is the same as choosing not to act.

On the second issue, I have a less fully formed view, but I feel inclined to accept the implication of Prof. Chomsky's quotation (the one that started this discussion) that one is responsible for the predictable consequences of one's inaction. However, if actions can (and often do) have unpredictable consequences, certainly inactions must almost necessarily have a huge array of consequences which no one could reasonably be expected to foresee. Thus, for instance, I would not hold anyone responsible for failing to prevent the death of someone they didn't know was in danger of death. I would, however, hold them to some extent responsible for the death of someone they knew was likely to die if they did not act.

But how responsible should they be held? Well, this is the third issue. In the case of murder, which you raise, I would be inclined to say that there is a (reasonably) clear hierarchy of responsibility. The person most reponsible is the person who is or brings about the immediate medical cause of death, in most cases. But to determine how responsible someone is for the death of another person, I would suggest that one would assess two things: first, how easily could the person have prevented the death, and second, how far could the person be expected to know (or perhaps simply how far did the person know) the answer to the first part? Therefore in answer to your suggestion that one is responsible for every death that occurs in the world, I would say that this is not so. One is, however, to some extent responsible for any death which meets these two criteria, 1 - that one was able to prevent it, and 2 - that one knew one was able to prevent it. One is more responsible for a death which one could easily have prevented and which one knew one could easily have prevented than for a death which one knew about but could not prevent, or could have prevented but did not know that one could prevent.

To apply this to a few hypothetical cases: for the murder of a person I didn't know was being attacked but could have prevented, I am not responsible. For the death from illness of a person who I knew was dying of illness but whose death I did not have the medical competence to prevent, I am not responsible. For the execution of a prisoner on death row in the United States whose case I had read about, I am to a very slight degree responsible, because I was aware of it, and I could have prevented it; but the responsibility is only very slight, because I would have had to either mount a successful appeal, which would be extremely difficult and unlikely to succeed as I am not a lawyer, I live in the U.K., I cannot readily afford to travel to the States, and it would in any case probably be too short notice for an appeal, or else I could travel to the States (see above difficulties) and attempt to illegally free the prisoner from jail and help him or her escape to somewhere whence he or she could not be extradited. Assuming the prison to have reasonable security, this too I would find very difficult. Moreover, if I supported the death penalty (which I do not) and believed the person guilty, then I might be willing to accept that small amount of responsibility as the price for seeing the sentence carried out.

I shan't carry on with more examples, as I'm sure these are clear enough. I hope I haven't bored you.

> I suggest putting on heavy gloves before digging any further into this
> topic, and thorough disinfection afterwards. It smells to high heaven.

As you can see, my gloves are well strapped on, and I'm prepared to wade through as much muck as I need to to have this interesting and important debate.

Jamie




www.strategikon.org




---------------------------------
Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:03:02 +0000

>From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
>Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:35:07 EST
>
>In a message dated 11/9/2002 9:59:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com writes:
>
> > Then they are in the wrong place because Novaroma is still a project.
> >
> > Galerius Peregrinator.
>
>I do not think I fully understand the meaning of your statement.
>
>G. Modius Athanasius
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Salve Modii, and I hope you win that election. Now as to the issue at
hand, Novaroma is an ongoing project that needs the efforts of the people
who join it. Everything is done as volunteer work. NR is being built by
volunteers, many of whom, contributed countless hours and personal
resources, and nobody is expecting a return other than seeing NR become a
reality. And if somebody will say I'll pay my tax, but I want something in
return, then he is not serious about Novaroma, and that means he is in the
wrong place because NR simply can't afford it.

Vale

Galerius Peregrinator.

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Declaration of Philosophy for Gens.
From:	BiggPoppaPump420@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:41:58 EST

Here's an idea. I have had VERY VERY deep studies in all kinds of
philosophy[From Ancient to Modern]. I think it would be neat for the
Patarfamillia to declare an order of philosophy for the gen.

-Gaius Cassius Marius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Fee for joining?
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:55:31 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 12:03:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com writes:

> Salve Modii, and I hope you win that election. Now as to the issue at
> hand, Novaroma is an ongoing project that needs the efforts of the people
> who join it. Everything is done as volunteer work. NR is being built by
> volunteers, many of whom, contributed countless hours and personal
> resources, and nobody is expecting a return other than seeing NR become a
> reality. And if somebody will say I'll pay my tax, but I want something in
>
> return, then he is not serious about Novaroma, and that means he is in the
> wrong place because NR simply can't afford it.

I disagree with your statement, and I will tell you why. When I say return
on your investment I mean "perceived" value of Nova Roma.

There are citizens out that who I am sure do not care much about Nova Roma.
They are citizens but do not follow the lists, and who do not particularly
care what goes on. They are not getting a "return."

Then there are those of us who enjoy the interaction with others, and who
want to see great things happen within Nova Roma. These are the people who
spend countless hours working on ways to make the Republic better. They MUST
be enjoying what they do, or they have a drive to see their vision take
shape. This is the return on investment I am talking about. To some people,
a return is tangible (newsletters, et al.) To other people it is a sense of
purpose, and belonging, and a feeling that they are making a difference.

By adding a local element into Nova Roma (more so than what we have now) we
make it possible for more people to get involved, more visions to take shape,
and more involvement. Some people might not be cut out for politics, but
they might be able to host a feast or a local event. These people are just
as important to the survival of Nova Roma.

As New Romans we need to build up our culture, and not an ancient and extinct
culture or a cyber culture. But the new culture of New Romans. Those Romans
who walk between the worlds of classical life, and modern life
simultaneously.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] New poll for Nova-Roma
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 9 Nov 2002 22:48:59 -0800 (PST)

Can anyone tell me who these people are?
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
Nova-Roma group:

Are tired of polls?

o Yes
o No
o Depends on whether I get free food as part of the focus group
o What's a poll?
o Do polls exist?
o The creator of this poll has WAY too much free time on his hands


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/surveys?id=10963880

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!







To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Frauds and Trolls
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 01:59:55 -0600

Salvete

I have one point to make in response to L Sicinius' post, which I
otherwise agree with entirely.

> In the unlikely event that I was caught, the only
> thing that could be done is a Censorial Nota for
> morality because right now there are no Leges
> regarding multiple citizenships or defrauding the Res
> Publica by voting each of the alter egos.

Actually, any civis who wished could petition a praetor to hold a trial
against you in order to exact a fine. Additionally, even in the absence
of a law, a consul or praetor could hold a trial to have you expelled
from Nova Roma. The precedent would be a dangerous one, and would need
to be carefully defined by the magistrate in question, but it could be
done. IOW, we are essentially in the position of the very early
Republic, in which much law was formed and performed on an ad hoc basis.

> This situation is clearly unacceptable. We need a Lex
> covering Voter fraud, however we also need to take the
> time to study the problem and carefully look at the
> consequances that go with the proposed soulations.

As I said, I do agree.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Frauds and Trolls
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:50:08 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Fortunatus <labienus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> I have one point to make in response to L Sicinius' post, which I
> otherwise agree with entirely.
>

Salvete

I too agree with what was so well put by Lucius Sicinius Drusus on
this matter. The system - as it is set up now - indeed makes it
absurdly simple to defraud it. Even though I doubt that any serious
attempt has been made so far, changes are advisable: faced with a
serious risk the hassle of prevention is always preferrable to
regret afterwards.

Thinking about the consequences of our possible actions on this
matter I believe a reasonable balance must be struck between the risk
of voter fraud and the magisterial workload/expenses necessary to
avoid it. We should be realistic and avoid a second Census Law that
will not be implemented because of lack of funds or time.

Taking into account our current state of development the proposal of
Consul Germanicus (I believe it was him) to simply amend the Senatus
Consultum on taxation in such a way that new cives will be put in the
Capite Censi category first, would already achieve most of what we
want at this time: making it extremely costly and unattractive to
open several new citizen "vote accounts".

A lex on voter fraud carrying adequate punishments (including - in
serious cases - also removal of citizenship) seems a must as well and
was argued for by several citizens already.

For the sake of staying within realistic dimensions every magisterial
action beyond that should in my mind be reactive rather than
preventive, meaning it should only be undertaken if and when
suspicious activities are uncovered (e.g. by the rogatores during an
election or in the course of a future census). Governors, as those
magistrates closest to the citizens, should of course play a major
role in this.

What I cannot support however is the following statement by Praetor
Labienus:

> Additionally, even in the absence
> of a law, a consul or praetor could hold a trial to have you
expelled
> from Nova Roma. The precedent would be a dangerous one, and would
need
> to be carefully defined by the magistrate in question, but it could
be
> done. IOW, we are essentially in the position of the very early
> Republic, in which much law was formed and performed on an ad hoc
basis.

The argument, if I understand it correctly, goes that a Consul or
Praetor may find law based on an ad hoc basis in accordance with the
mos maiorum in the early stages of Roma antiqua.

As much as I can sympathize with this approach when Civil Law cases
are the focus of attention, I must point out that in my view because
of the definition in Title I.a. all "laws" explicitly mentioned in
the Constitution are ONLY those passed by the relevant Comitiae.

Our constitution in II.a.4 states that "Citizenship may be
involuntarily revoked by those means that shall be established by
law".

The dangerous precedent Praetor Labienus mentions, whom I value as an
elegant jurist and thinker, therefore would be that a Consul or
Praetor could take over the competence of a comitia to define what is
necessary to expel a citizen. This is no power I believe the
Constitution wanted to grant to any one magistrate except in
extraordinary circumstances (hence in cases where a Senatus Consultum
Ultimum was passed or a Dictator appointed).

If I were Tribune I would therefore feel compelled to veto any such
attempt.

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex
Candidate for Tribune


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Frauds and Trolls
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:41:25 -0800 (PST)

--- rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., Fortunatus <labienus@n...>
> wrote:
> > Salvete
> >
> > I have one point to make in response to L
> Sicinius' post, which I
> > otherwise agree with entirely.
> >
>
> Salvete
>
> I too agree with what was so well put by Lucius
> Sicinius Drusus on
> this matter. The system - as it is set up now -
> indeed makes it
> absurdly simple to defraud it. Even though I doubt
> that any serious
> attempt has been made so far, changes are advisable:
> faced with a
> serious risk the hassle of prevention is always
> preferrable to
> regret afterwards.
>
> Thinking about the consequences of our possible
> actions on this
> matter I believe a reasonable balance must be struck
> between the risk
> of voter fraud and the magisterial workload/expenses
> necessary to
> avoid it. We should be realistic and avoid a second
> Census Law that
> will not be implemented because of lack of funds or
> time.

DRUSUS: I Agree that balance is needed. Our
Magistrates are voulenters, and we can't ask so much
of them that it becomes a full time unpaid job. That
would make it impossible for most of our citizens to
serve the Res Publica. Our Goal has to be to make it
unlikely that fraud can determine the outcome of an
election rather than the imposible task of eliminating
fraud.
>
> Taking into account our current state of development
> the proposal of
> Consul Germanicus (I believe it was him) to simply
> amend the Senatus
> Consultum on taxation in such a way that new cives
> will be put in the
> Capite Censi category first, would already achieve
> most of what we
> want at this time: making it extremely costly and
> unattractive to
> open several new citizen "vote accounts".

Placing new citizens who don't pay the tax into the
Capite Censi is a good start. It would place all of my
30 mythical citizens in a single Century (unless I was
willing to spend $360.00 to buy the election)
lessening the impact on offices elected in that
Century. We can't over look the importance of the
Urban Tribes however. Controling 30 votes in the 4
urban tribes would allow me to dominate them rather
than just influance the outcome. A Canidate I suported
for Tribune would only have to win 14 of the Rural
tribes in addition to the Urban Tribes I had in my
pocket. A Canidate that I didn't support would have to
win 18 Rural tribes to get elected. The proposal to
allow multiple votes would allow me to back two
tribunes rather than one making it worse.

Placing all the Capite Censi in a single Urban tribe
would lessen the clout someone with a mass of
fraudlant citizens would have in a tribal assembly.
The other three Urban tribes can be for citizens who
failed to vote in the previous election, but who paid
the Tax.
>
> A lex on voter fraud carrying adequate punishments
> (including - in
> serious cases - also removal of citizenship) seems a
> must as well and
> was argued for by several citizens already.

I Favor up to one year of banishment for each
fraudlant voter as the punishment. This means my 30
alter egos could result in a 30 year banishment from
Nova Roma.
(Some may consider that desirable in my case without
the fraud ;o) ).

>
> For the sake of staying within realistic dimensions
> every magisterial
> action beyond that should in my mind be reactive
> rather than
> preventive, meaning it should only be undertaken if
> and when
> suspicious activities are uncovered (e.g. by the
> rogatores during an
> election or in the course of a future census).
> Governors, as those
> magistrates closest to the citizens, should of
> course play a major
> role in this.
>
> What I cannot support however is the following
> statement by Praetor
> Labienus:
>
> > Additionally, even in the absence
> > of a law, a consul or praetor could hold a trial
> to have you
> expelled
> > from Nova Roma. The precedent would be a
> dangerous one, and would
> need
> > to be carefully defined by the magistrate in
> question, but it could
> be
> > done. IOW, we are essentially in the position of
> the very early
> > Republic, in which much law was formed and
> performed on an ad hoc
> basis.
>
> The argument, if I understand it correctly, goes
> that a Consul or
> Praetor may find law based on an ad hoc basis in
> accordance with the
> mos maiorum in the early stages of Roma antiqua.
>
> As much as I can sympathize with this approach when
> Civil Law cases
> are the focus of attention, I must point out that in
> my view because
> of the definition in Title I.a. all "laws"
> explicitly mentioned in
> the Constitution are ONLY those passed by the
> relevant Comitiae.
>
> Our constitution in II.a.4 states that "Citizenship
> may be
> involuntarily revoked by those means that shall be
> established by
> law".
>
> The dangerous precedent Praetor Labienus mentions,
> whom I value as an
> elegant jurist and thinker, therefore would be that
> a Consul or
> Praetor could take over the competence of a comitia
> to define what is
> necessary to expel a citizen. This is no power I
> believe the
> Constitution wanted to grant to any one magistrate
> except in
> extraordinary circumstances (hence in cases where a
> Senatus Consultum
> Ultimum was passed or a Dictator appointed).
>
> If I were Tribune I would therefore feel compelled
> to veto any such
> attempt.
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
> Candidate for Tribune
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Frauds and Trolls
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:56:41 -0800 (PST)

--- Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> I have one point to make in response to L Sicinius'
> post, which I
> otherwise agree with entirely.
>
> > In the unlikely event that I was caught, the only
> > thing that could be done is a Censorial Nota for
> > morality because right now there are no Leges
> > regarding multiple citizenships or defrauding the
> Res
> > Publica by voting each of the alter egos.
>
> Actually, any civis who wished could petition a
> praetor to hold a trial
> against you in order to exact a fine. Additionally,
> even in the absence
> of a law, a consul or praetor could hold a trial to
> have you expelled
> from Nova Roma. The precedent would be a dangerous
> one, and would need
> to be carefully defined by the magistrate in
> question, but it could be
> done. IOW, we are essentially in the position of
> the very early
> Republic, in which much law was formed and performed
> on an ad hoc basis.
>
This path is very dangrous to the future of the Res
Publica. A Massive voter fraud plot like the one I
outlined would cause wide spread anger, and decesions
made in the heat of passion are not always wise. I
Think it's likely that emotions would result in more
intrest in doing whatever was nessacary to banish me
than in thinking of the long term results.

Our Ancestors started with extra legal murders of
Radical Tribunes. Marius expanded this into wide
spread extra leagal murders of his foes when he took
Roma. Sulla formalized it into prescriptions. Cicero
made it an act of the Senate rather than an act by an
indiviual during the Catalina affair. By the time the
Empire took over a Maiestas charge was a death
sentance rather than the prelude to a trial. In each
case someone took the earlier precedent and expanded
it to a higher level.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Membership Fraud + Phone call.
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:39:28 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

This was what I suspected. All this "hullabaloo" about Illustrus
Gnaeus Salix Astur discovering citizenshp fraud was no more than "a
hen made out of a feather or a mountain from a mole hill"!

Could we now stop the discussion about the admission fee and as a
solution of the so called citizenship fraud question. I am dead
against the the admission fee, because the adminstration and cost of
the admission fee for many living outside of US, seem to be too much
to many and this will lead to dimishing recruitment.

What shall we do then?

I would prefere a phone call or maybe a snail mail from the
_applicant_ to the Governor or legate of the Provincia or Regio*. I
would say that that sending a snail mail will be a disadvantage to
many who are used to the quickness of the Internet. Still I could
accept it as a voluntary alternative to the phone call. This way ther
would be no cost for Nova Roma and the applicant would have to be
active to become a citizen. Still contacting someone in your own
country is easier than contacting the Censors. Remember that many new
citizens don't have English as their native language.

Added to this I think that Illustrus Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Illustrus Lucius Sicinius Drusus and Honorable Marcus Marcius Rex
each and together have defined a good path to follow. All new
citizens should be put into the Capiti Censi, the last Century and
the 35th tribe. Now we have a rather acceptable system, that will not
drive good new citizens from us and give us a chance to check who
they are before they become full (tax paying) citizens.

We have also got rid of this unwieldly and contraproductive
"admission fee" as an alternative and found an acceptable defence
against voter's frauds.

*This way solving the problems with Provinciae consisting of many
macronations, for instance Thule, Germania, Pannnia and Gallia.

>Since my name has been mentioned in the late discussion about
>membership fraud, I guess it is time to express my opinion on this
>issue.
>
>First of all, let me say that it is true that, one year ago, I
>"uncovered" a case of membership fraud here in Nova Roma. That, I must
>say, was more of a mistake than a voluntary fraud, and it was
>satisfactorily solved.
>
>It is true that we, as an organization, have no way to protect
>ourselves to a *hypothetical* malicious membership fraud. That is a
>serious issue, because we base our organization on votes.
>
>However, I think that an "admission fee" is NOT the solution to this
>problem. After all, we have no reason to believe that membership fraud
>is an extended practice, and we would create a problem far more serious
>than the one we are trying to solve. Let me please explain myself.
>
>When I first encountered Nova Roma, I did not know much about it. There
>were many things I simply did not understand. If Nova Roma had asked me
>to pay a fee for joining, I probably would not have joined (I get asked
>for money *everyday* on the Internet). This comes from someone who has
>voluntarily paid taxes to the Nova Roma treasury, and who has put
>further money for the growth of the Hispania province. And I am a
>student (i.e., I am not rich).
>
>I think that an "entrance fee" would probably reduce the number of
>prospective citizens. It would hinder Nova Roma's growth; it could even
>mean Nova Roma's death in the long term, since, without the constant
>"new blood" we get from new citizens, Nova Roma would probably become a
>reduced, inbred group where new ideas would never appear. And, besides,
>an "entrance fee" would NOT make "membership fraud" impossible; it
>would simply make it more expensive.
>
>So, how can we avoid the problems created by a *hypothetical*
>"membership fraud" problem? I think that the answer lies in our
>provincial and local administrations.
>
>I, for instance, have personally met a high percentage of the citizens
>of my province (Hispania) in several occasions. I know the faces behind
>the names of many Hispanici, so to say :-). I *know* that those names
>are not false.
>
>So I guess that the answer is to create a *national census* based on a
>cooperation between the censores and the provincial administrations.
>And we need more "real life" experiences here in Nova Roma. That would
>solve this hypothetical problem, and it would grant us many more
>advantages besides that.
>
>=====
>Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Tribunus Plebis
>Triumvir Academiae Thules
>Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
>Lictor Curiatus.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Yahoo! Messenger
>Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis!
>Descárgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea...
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:09:01 +0100

Salve Honorable G. Modius Athanasius!

The idea with "local groups" is a good one and I think that it is
very compatible with my idea about the creation of Roman Houses/camps.

Vedius had a proposal about this (2001 13th of January). He was not a
very diplomatic person, but I will freely admit that he had quite a
few good ideas. In stead of copying his proposal and trying to sell
it as mine, I just give You this (which is just a part of a longer
proposal) as a base for a continuing discussion about local groups. A
discussion that I really appreciate. I prefer constructive
discussions to the rather destructive discussions I have seen lately
and ignored.

>In a message dated 11/9/2002 11:14:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:
>
>> I Do like the idea of setting up local groups, but we
>> also have to think of long term problems that can
>> arise if this isn't done carefully. Before the
>> governers start setting up these local organizations
>> it would be desirable to have a Lex that authorizes
>> Nova Roma to charter local groups. This will insure
>> that they can share Nova Roma's NPC status instead of
>> each group having to apply sepratly for NPC status or
> > face paying local taxes.

..............................................
..........................................

>I agree 100%. It is nice to see someone taking an interest in the concept of
>local groups. I much prefer talking about something that will help our
>Republic, than some of the discussion that has been going on as of late.
>
>Perhaps a discussion can be started off list by a few of the interested
>parties, who could then send a recommendation to the senate? I am very much
>interested in having local groups, and I especially like your Polis idea.
>
>G. Modius Athanasius
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:24:55 +0100

Salve Honorable G. Modius Athanasius!

Here is the proposal of Vedius:
===============

I. Local chapters

I spoke extensively about the question of local chapters a few months
ago, and indeed here in New Jersey we have a prototype of such a
chapter already ramping up (Civitas Boreocaesarium). In addition, I
know that similar efforts are at least being discussed in Germania,
Thule, and one or two provincia here in the United States.

Local chapters would consist of citizens who live within a given
geographic area, who get together on a regular basis to hold events,
sponsor activities, recruit new citizens, study Roman arts and
sciences, etc. etc. etc. They could be in a given urban area, a
larger suburban/rural area, or even on a single college campus.
Naturally informal groups of cives can already do these sorts of
things, but the local chapter would be for those people who wanted to
do such on a regular basis, with some sort of structure and official
support.

I envision a two-tier system for local chapters. The first tier would
be for chapters just starting out, which I call the "civitas". It
would be very dependent on the provincial governor for support,
organization, etc. and would stay in this level for at least a year
while it starts to hold regular events, get a feel for the social
dynamics of the group (including how much time members have to
commit), etc. Once a certain threshold was reached (X number of
events in a year, Y number of cives willing to commit to the chapter,
etc.) it could petition the governor to be promoted to the next tier,
which I call the "municipium".

The municipium would have a much greater degree of independence from
the provincial governor (although never completely cut loose from the
provincial administration). It would elect its own council and
magistrates (duumviri, aediles, quaestores, etc.), be allowed to
maintain its own bank account, hold its own events without prior
approval, etc.

I can foresee such local chapters springing up all over the place,
affording cives the opportunity for regular face-to-face interaction,
without necessarily requiring a huge commitment (unless one wanted
to).

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Membership Fraud
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:36:47 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Helvetice.

--- "A. Hirtius Helveticus" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de> escribió:
> Salvete Quirites, et salve honoured Tribunus
>
> --- Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:
> <snip>
> > First of all, let me say that it is true that, one
> > year ago, I
> > "uncovered" a case of membership fraud here in Nova
> > Roma.
>
> Thank you for that clarification, Astur.

You're welcome.

> > However, I think that an "admission fee" is NOT the
> > solution to this
> > problem.
>
> I am pretty sure, that most people here now agree with
> that. It definitely is NOT an option.

I am happy to hear that :-).

> > So, how can we avoid the problems created by a
> > *hypothetical*
> > "membership fraud" problem? I think that the answer
> > lies in our
> > provincial and local administrations.
>
> I could not agree more! As I already pointed out
> during this topic, I think, it would be best to
> implement a two step application procedure involving
> the provincial authorities.

That would be good, IMHO. Our provincial administrations are extremely
powerful tools; let's get a better use for them.

> Also, a regular census would be nice, but, as was
> pointed out already, this creates a lot of
> difficulties (at the moment).

I think that a well planned census (like the one Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus proposes) would not be so difficult to implement. But we
will see...

> Now, Quirites, we have seriously discussed this issue
> of possible voting fraud here. The problem mainly is,
> that no-one knows, how big this a problem actually is.

In my opinion, it is not *that* big. And I am sure that we will be able
to find some solution.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis!
Descárgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Frauds and Trolls
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:36:07 -0600

Salvete

> The argument, if I understand it correctly, goes that a Consul or
> Praetor may find law based on an ad hoc basis in accordance with the
> mos maiorum in the early stages of Roma antiqua.

Just so.

> As much as I can sympathize with this approach when Civil Law cases
> are the focus of attention, I must point out that in my view because
> of the definition in Title I.a. all "laws" explicitly mentioned in
> the Constitution are ONLY those passed by the relevant Comitiae.
>
> Our constitution in II.a.4 states that "Citizenship may be
> involuntarily revoked by those means that shall be established by
> law".

Yes. However, you will note that III.b.3 effectively declares the
Comitia Centuriata to be the only body which is competent to try cases
in which the removal of citizenship is at stake. In effect, the praetor
or consul in question would be asking the people of Nova Roma to pass a
law which exiled a specific person. In this way, the magistrate in
question would not be usurping the competence of the comitia.

I, too, hope that the tribuni plebis would veto any attempt to remove
someone's citizenship through any means other than the Comitia Centuriata.

Nota bene: the reason I said that it would be a dangerous precedent is
exactly that noted by L Sicinius. Precedents tend to be built upon,
which would certainly be undesirable in this case. The constitution
rather fortunately limits the trend in the case of the removal of
citizenship, but a lex passed before the fact is clearly preferable.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] about LEX IVDICIARIA
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:50:18 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Constantine.

Sorry for the delay, Constantine. Your post kept me thinking for a
couple of days before answering it :-).

--- Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it> escribió:
> AVE OPTIME GNAEE SALIX ASTVR
>
> You work seems very good to me. Thank you!
> Now, just a few thoughts:
>
> 1-As you know in ancient Rome commercial justice was
> administered by the Curule Aediles. Given that our
> Constitution states that also the Curule Aediles have
> the power and obligation to administer the law,
> perhaps commercial justice should fall under their
> tasks. By "commercial" I mean marketplaces like world
> wide web based businesses operated by members of the
> Ordo Equester, businesses operating at sponsored Nova
> Roma events, and any other business activity carried
> out with express knowledge that Nova Roma citizens are
> involved, whether by Nova Roma citizens or by
> associates who knowingly do business with Nova Roma.
> Your proposed law could define that commercial justice
> doesn't falls under the Praetors' competence
> (paragraph II.a).
> I studied the office of the Curule Aediles in the
> Republic, and I have a raher clear idea of the means
> these magistrates used to administer commercial
> justice. I think I would be able to write a draft for
> a specific law dealing with this matter.

I completely agree with your point of view.
However, nothing in my proposal prevents a citizen from asking an
aedilis to step in to solve a commercial justice case. My proposal just
handles what to do when a *praetor* is asked to act; nothing more, and
nothing less. In my opinion, a praetor can (and should) direct the
demanding citizen to an aedilis, if the aedilis is better suited to
solve his problem. Perhaps we will need a different law for that :-).

> 2- In paragraph VI you mention three sources, but then
> I read only two: Lex and Iurisprudentia.

A typographic mistake :-). I will try to correct it immediately.

> 3- In paragraph XV you give the iudices the
> opportunity to give two judgements: Absolvo or
> Condemno, but in ancient Rome there was also "non
> liquet" when they deemed the case unclear. perhaps it
> would be right to put this option in our judicial
> system too?

I know that Roman iudices could pronounce a "non liquet" veredict.
I have decided not to include that possibility, to further enforce the
"in dubio pro reo" principle. If a iudex is not sure of someone's
guilt, the iudex should vote "absolvo". It is a minor deviation from
Roman practice, but I sincerely think that it represents an
improvement.

> 4- In paragraph XVII A. you propose the Multa
> Pecuniaria to be paid to the Treasury of Nova Roma.
> What if a citizen has to pay a compensation for a
> moral or material damage to another citizen? Should he
> send money to the Treasury ans the Treasury would pass
> money to the second citizen? Or could the citizen send
> money directly to the other citizen providing
> documents to the Praetor? In this case a small
> modification should be done to that paragraph.

I think that the Multa Pecuniaria should *never* be understood as a
form of "compensation" for the defendant. It is a punishment inflicted
by the State, and its only purpose is to deter people from breaking the
law.

In cases where a certain amount of money is due to the actor, that
money should not be considered a multa.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis!
Descárgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea...
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:52:11 +0100

Salvete,

I read G. Modius AthanasiusAthanasius' posts on local groups a few days ago
and agree with Caeso Fabius Quintilianus that the idea is an excellent one.

But how do we proceed from here in order to implement this? In any case,
count me in if you need help.
Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Lex Salicia Iudiciaria (correction)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:53:28 +0100 (CET)

LEX SALICIA IVDICIARIA

PRAEFATIO.

The intent of this law is to establish a judicial system in Nova Roma,
setting the legal procedures that must be followed to present a case to
a court and to constitute that court. This judical system shall be
based on the imperium of the praetores, thus pursuing to fulfill
article IV.A.3.b. of the Constitution of Nova Roma.

These procedures are based on the Roman republican procedural model,
both because it probably is the model that best suits Nova Roma and
because it is the basis for all the procedural systems of modern
Western nations. Some concessions to Nova Roma's particular structure
have had to be made; but, in spirit, it follows the ancient Roman
procedure.

PARS PRIMA: DE PETITIO ACTIONIS.

I. Any citizen of Nova Roma shall be able to bring an action against
another citizen of Nova Roma. The plaintiff shall be adressed in this
law as "actor". The defendant shall be adressed as "reus".

II. The actor must announce the action he is intending to exert to one
of the praetores ("editio actionis"), and then the actor must ask the
praetor to start the procedure ("petitio actionis"). The praetor shall
decide, within 72 hours, if the petitio actionis shall be presented to
a court or if it shall be dismissed. A praetor can dismiss a petitio
actionis if and only if one of the following cases applies:

a. The praetor has no competence in the issue.

Example: a praetor can not mediate between two foreign parts, for his
competence is limited to the citizens of Nova Roma.

b. The parts are not sui iuris in Nova Roma.

Example: a minor can not play the part of an actor.

c. The claim is incongruent.

Example: "Ticius must be expelled from Nova Roma because he is bearded"
is an incongruent claim, for it is not supported by law, precedent or
common sense.

III. If the claim is dismissed by the praetores, the actor shall be
able to present his case again to the praetores in the future, waiting
for two new praetores to be elected by the Comitia if necessary.

IV. If the claim is approved by the praetores, it shall be presented to
a court of justice defined according to this law. The reus shall be
informed of the nature of the claim presented against him and of the
identity of the actor within 36 hours after the claim's approval.

PARS SECVNDA: DE FORMVLA.

V. Once a claim has been accepted by a praetor, that same praetor shall
prepare a formula to present to the iudices. The formula shall consist
of a logical statement that instructs the iudices on the decision they
must take. The formula shall be structured into four parts: institutio
iudicis, intentio, demonstratio and condemnatio. An explanation of each
part follows:

a. INSTITUTIO IVDICIS: this clause appoints a certain iudex to judge
the case (see below).

b. INTENTIO: this part expresses the pretension of the actor; i.e., it
shall express what the actor seeks by petitioning the praetor. There
are two kinds of intentio: intentio certa, when the facts that lead to
the actor's pretension are so obvious that they do not need to be
proved, and intentio incerta, when the actor must prove the facts that
justify his pretension.

Example:
Intentio Certa:
"According to the contract signed by Titius..."
Intentio Incerta: "If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius 1,000
sestertii, Gaius shall pay Ticius that same amount".

c. DEMONSTRATIO: it is the clause that further defines an intentio
incerta.

d. CONDEMNATIO: it is the clause that allows the iudices to condemnate
or absolve.

Example: a formula could be something like this:
"Let Sulpicius be the iudex. If it is proved that Ticius owes Gaius
1,000 sestertii, you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000
sestertii to Gaius; else, you shall acquit Ticius."

The clauses would be:
Institutio Iudicis: "Let Sulpicius be the iudex."
Demonstratio: "If it is proved that ..."
Intentio: "... Ticius owes Gaius 1,000 sestertii ..."
Condemnatio: "... you, iudex, shall condemn Ticius to pay 1,000
sestertii to Gaius; else, you shall acquit Ticius."

VI. To write down a formula, a praetor shall base himself in one of
these two sources:

a. Lex: the intentio and the condemnatio shall never be in disagreement
with the current laws of Nova Roma. They must follow these laws when
the situation is explicitly treated by them.

b. Iurisprudentia: in those cases were the laws do not present an
explicit treatment of a certain situation, a praetor shall create
iurisprudentia (jurisprudence) applicable to all similar situations.
Iurisprudentia is an expression of the Imperium of the praetor, and it
has the same legislative power of a praetorial edictum. Because of
this, laws approved by the Comitia shall always supercede
iurisprudentia, and a certain praetor can alter previous iurisprudentia
through an official edictum whenever common sense dictates that such a
course of action is necessary.

PARS TERTIA: DE IVDICIBVS.

VII. Once the formula is ready, iudices (judges) shall be appointed
from the album iudicium, a list of all the citizens that can legally
judge a case. The album iudicium shall include the names of all the
assidui citizens that have been citizens of Nova Roma for over a year.

VIII. The number of iudices that shall make up the tribunalis (court of
justice) for a certain case shall be decided by the praetor according
to the following guidelines:

a. The tribunalis shall be composed of ten (10) iudices whenever the
intentio includes accusations of lesa patria (seriously threatening the
well-being of the Republic), bribery, embezzlement of public funds,
prevarication, electoral fraud, attacks to dignitas, slander or libel,
or whenever the sententia might imply the loss of citizenship for one
of the parts.

b. In all other occasions, the tribunalis shall be composed of a single
iudex.

IX. The praetor shall aleatorily take a number of names equal to the
number of iudices from the album iudicium. The following considerations
apply:

a. If the praetor considers that some of the iudices thus appointed are
obviously related by ties of interest to one of the parts, then the
praetor shall, at his own discretion, dismiss those iudices and cast
lots to appoint different iudices from the album iudicium.

b. A citizen thus appointed to a court shall be able to ask for an
exemption from that judicial work if there are factors that do not
allow him to serve in that position. That exemption must be asked to
the praetor within 36 hours of the official announcement of that
appointment; the praetor shall grant that exemption to his own
discretion, or he shall deny it, thus forcing the appointed iudex to
serve or face an accusation of contempt.

c. Each part shall be able to dismiss a maximum of three (3) iudices,
forcing a new iudex to be aleatorily taken from the album iudicium with
each veto. Once both parts agree with a certain group of iudices, or
both have already spent their three vetoes, the remaining iudices shall
be the final iudices, unless one of the preceding paragraphs applies.

d. If both parts can agree on a certain citizen(s) of Nova Roma to
judge their case before a definitive group of legal iudices has been
appointed, then the praetor shall include that citizen (or those
citizens) among the iudices for the current case.

PARS QVARTA: DE IVDICIO

X. Once a tribunal has been appointed, the praetor shall inform the
iudices of the formula that they shall apply. The praetor shall decide
if the trial is going to be conducted under the public scrutiny or,
should the dignitas of innocents be at stake, declare a secret summary
and move the trial away from public scrutiny.

XI. Any of the parts can choose to appoint an advocatus (advocate or
barrister) to speak for them in front of the iudices, or they can
choose to speak by themselves. An advocatus shall not receive a fee for
his services.

XII. The actor shall present evidence to back his demands, and then the
reus shall present evidence to back his defense. Evidence shall consist
of anything that is relevant to the case, including written text,
visual evidence and the statements of witnesses or experts. In the case
of statements, each part shall have the right to ask questions to the
witnesses and experts presented by the other part.

XIII. The praetor shall be the final judge to determine what pieces of
evidence are relevant to the case.

XIV. Once both parts have presented their evidences, each part shall
have the opportunity to make one final allegation in front of the
iudices, with the actor speaking in the first place. Then the praetor
shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the iudices, according to
paragraph XV, reminding the iudices that, in case of doubt, they must
*not* condemn the reus.

PARS QVINTA: DE SENTENTIA

XV. Once the praetor has called for a sententia, the iudices shall have
72 hours to deliberate; within those 72 hours, the iudices shall
individually issue one of the following sentences:

A. ABSOLVO: if the tribunal's majority decision is "absolvo", the reus
shall be acquited.

B. CONDEMNO: if the tribunal's majority decision is "condemno", the
reus shall be condemned according to the formula previously established
by the praetor.

Should there be a draw in the tribunal's votes, the reus shall be
acquited.

XVI. Once all the iudices have issued their sententiae, the praetor
shall immediately inform the parts of the sententia, and shall enforce
any penalties through his imperium.

PARS SEXTA: DE POENA

XVII. In those cases where the laws of Nova Roma or the praetor's sense
deem it necessary, the formula shall include one or several of the
following penalties to be inflicted upon a convicted reus:

A. MVLTA PECVNIARIA: a fine payable to the treasury of Nova Roma. The
convicted reus shall be counted among the capita census until the fine
has been paid.

B. DECLARATIO PVBLICA: the convicted reus shall publicly recognize the
actor's intentio, in any public fora indicated in the formula. The
convicted reus shall suffer inhabilitatio (see below) until the
declaration has been made to the praetor's satisfaction.

C. INHABILITATIO: the convicted reus shall be desqualified to vote, to
hold a magistracy or to exert a certain right for a set period of time
or until a certain condition is met; any condition or time period must
be explicitly stated in the formula.

D. EXACTIO: the convicted reus shall loose his Novoroman citizenship
and all the rights and duties associated with it for a set (but not
necessarily limited) period of time, or until a certain condition is
met; any condition or time period must be explicitly stated in the
formula.

PARS SEPTIMA: DE PROVOCATIONE AD POPULUM

XVIII. In those cases where a sententia implies a loss of citizenship,
the reus shall have the right to publicly claim a confirmation vote
from the Comitia Centuriata. Once the reus claims this right, the
consules shall call the Comitia Centuriata within fifteen (15) days to
vote upon the reus's expulsion. Should the Comitia Centuriata confirm
the sententia, the sententia shall be applied. Should the Comitia
Centuriata vote against the sententia, the sententia shall be
nullified.

XIX. Once a reus has been absolved, either by a tribunalis or by the
Comitia Centuriata, he shall not be judged again under the same
accusations.




=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
Nueva versión: Webcam, voz, y mucho más ¡Gratis!
Descárgalo ya desde http://messenger.yahoo.es

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea...
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:26:25 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 12:52:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
diana@pandora.be writes:

> But how do we proceed from here in order to implement this? In any case,
> count me in if you need help.
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia Aventina

I think the best way we can get the local group idea implemented is to KEEP
discussing it, and try to get as many people as we can on board with the
idea. There will be some who will oppose the idea, for their own personal
political reasons, and then there will be others who will silently support
the idea -- waiting for others to come out and show their support.

Lets keep talking about it, and get others involved in the "thinking tank"
process. What do people want?

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:59:28 EST

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus:

I think this is a good starting point for discussion of the local group idea.
However, I think it is important not to forget the Religio. Since the
Religio is an important part of Nova Roma I think it should be a facet of the
local group idea. This is one of the things that will make us different from
groups like the SCA. They take on personas and pretend, we take on Roman
names but we don't (or shouldn't at least) pretend we are a Roman citizen
from Ancient Rome. G. Modius Athanasius is not my Nova Roma persona, it is
who I am and is synonymous with the person that makes up G. Modius
Athanasius.

I do UNDERSTAND and WELCOME/CHERISH the diversity within Nova Roma. Not
everyone within our Republic believes in the Religio, some are Christian,
Jewish and in the future might be Muslim, Hindu, or other world religions (as
we continue to grow around the globe). However, I still feel that the
Religio should be incorporated somehow into the local group idea

Perhaps there could be three levels of local groups?

A Proto-version (civitas) which would be dependent on the Provincial Governor
and Legates. Would be administered directly by the Governor, with the local
organizer as a vicar until they qualify to upgrade to a municipium.

A Provisional version (municipium) which would be semi-independent from the
Provincial Governor.

A Fully chartered version (colonia?) which would be similar to provisionally
chartered but would also contain a local Sacerdos who would maintain the
local "temple."

There wouldn't be much difference between a Municipium and a Coloniae in this
model, but the extra status of a Coloniae vs. Municipium. This would also
make it easy for Roman Reconstructionist Pagans to know were local worshiping
groups of Nova Romans are located, so if they were traveling they could
contact them and ask for information on their next feast/ritual.

Nova Roma needs to be able to attract those Pagans who want to worship the
Gods of Rome (instead of simply reading about them), and Nova Roma needs to
be able to attract those non-Pagans who would make excellent citizens and
contribute to the whole of the Micronation. No one should feel alienated.

It nice to see people discussing the idea of local groups. I think local
groupings of citizens is really what is going to take Nova Roma WAY into a
successful future!

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


In a message dated 11/10/2002 12:26:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
christer.edling@telia.com writes:

> Local chapters would consist of citizens who live within a given
> geographic area, who get together on a regular basis to hold events,
> sponsor activities, recruit new citizens, study Roman arts and
> sciences, etc. etc. etc. They could be in a given urban area, a
> larger suburban/rural area, or even on a single college campus.
> Naturally informal groups of cives can already do these sorts of
> things, but the local chapter would be for those people who wanted to
> do such on a regular basis, with some sort of structure and official
> support.
>
> I envision a two-tier system for local chapters. The first tier would
> be for chapters just starting out, which I call the "civitas". It
> would be very dependent on the provincial governor for support,
> organization, etc. and would stay in this level for at least a year
> while it starts to hold regular events, get a feel for the social
> dynamics of the group (including how much time members have to
> commit), etc. Once a certain threshold was reached (X number of
> events in a year, Y number of cives willing to commit to the chapter,
> etc.) it could petition the governor to be promoted to the next tier,
> which I call the "municipium".
>
> The municipium would have a much greater degree of independence from
> the provincial governor (although never completely cut loose from the
> provincial administration). It would elect its own council and
> magistrates (duumviri, aediles, quaestores, etc.), be allowed to
> maintain its own bank account, hold its own events without prior
> approval, etc.
>
> I can foresee such local chapters springing up all over the place,
> affording cives the opportunity for regular face-to-face interaction,
> without necessarily requiring a huge commitment (unless one wanted
> to).
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Voter Fraud
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:08:44 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

There has been some discussion about what should or
shouldn't be done to combat posible voter fraud. We
need something a little different to decide how to
combat the problem.

In an Earlier post I outlined a method to commit a
fairly large vote fraud scam. It would be helpful if
citizens would think about what they would do if they
wanted to set up a fraudulant voter "plot", and post
thier "plots" on this list.

Then we can compare the frauds with the sugestions
that have already been made, and decide which plans
will stop certain frauds, and which plans aren't worth
the effort of implementing.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] ANNOUNCING CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:10:56 EST

>From Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to SPQNR. Salvete.

After a period of meditation, consultation with family, having made
sacrifice, and observed the auguries, I have donned the white toga of
candidacy and step to the rostrum to ask for your votes for the position of
quaestor of the Republic. I have been a citizen of NR for over one year and
have been an active (if not always wise) participant on the main list during
that time.

I believe that I have skills that could be of service to the Republic with
some talent in fund-raising and the administration of monies in a
constructive manner. I own two successful businesses that have grown over
the last six years despite the sometimes harsh economy of the modern world.
I have studied the Constitution and other pertinent sections of the
Tabularium and believe that I satisfy all the requirements for this office.
I believe in the importance of working closely with the Senate to use funds
wisely for the good of the Republic and develop NR on a world wide basis. I
have shared many of my thoughts on taxation, membership fees, and the
development of local groups on the main list so I hope that many of you
already know some of my ideas.

On a personal note, I am 42 years of age and have lived in Tennessee my
entire life (save for several periods of work out-of-state on the Renaissance
Faire Circuit or on some archaeological digs). I have been employed in
several capacities by the state department of human services for the last 16
years. I own a tobacco shop in the Historic District of Nashville, Tennessee
and also operate an internet business supplying living history goods to
American Civil War reenactors (www.thehaversack.com). I have been involved
with Living History (ECW & ACW) and the Society of Creative Anachronisms,
Inc. for over 25 years. I have been an administrator or worker at many
living history & SCA events over the years and want to see more local Roman
events in the provinces.
I practice the Religio on a regular basis and have been the High Priest of a
local pagan group for about 10 years. My wife is my high priestess and owns
one of the most successful metaphysical shops in Nashville. Together we have
developed the largest (and, in our opinion, the most enjoyable) pagan unity
festival in the southeastern US.

My email address is listed on my profile if anyone has any questions about my
candidacy and ideas if I am elected to this office. Valete.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Frauds and Trolls
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:16:56 EST

I do not know if we need a lex on voter fraud quite yet, dear citizen.
Personally, if anyone were to expend the time necessary to become a citizen,
join a gens, and try stuffing the ballot box, that person would have too much
time on their hands. Further, if said person were ever to be discovered,
there would follow such a period of social ostracism not to mention what the
censors would do to them, they would never be trusted again. I would say
that we should wait until we actually have more than one or two confirmed
cases of voter fraud before we should burden the senate and people of NR with
another lex.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:21:29 +0100 (MET)

Salvete!
I think this is a brilliant idea. The three-layered system would be even
better. But I would rather give names to the individual Groups by thei number
rather. If a "civitas" had e.g. 10 ACTIVE(!!) members it could be upgraded...
By upgrade certain rights are gained for the group, as proposed.
Valete, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus


--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:30:35 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 2:22:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
caiustarquitius@gmx.de writes:

> I think this is a brilliant idea. The three-layered system would be even
> better. But I would rather give names to the individual Groups by thei
> number
> rather. If a "civitas" had e.g. 10 ACTIVE(!!) members it could be
> upgraded...
> By upgrade certain rights are gained for the group, as proposed.

Exactly. I think a civitas (as a Proto-group) could be a group of one or a
few people just starting out, and trying to get a local group up and running.
Once they meet the minimum requirements they can progress to the
classification of local group, and have more autonomy.

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Action & Responsibility
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:35:22 +0000 (GMT)

C. Porticus Brutis wrote:

> Good God Woman Engish Please some of us are as dumb
> as a tack.mainly just me!

Lol. Thank you for your comments! I try my very best
to write in accurate and grammatical English, but if
this isn't what I'm writing, many apologies. When
dealing with complicated issues it's sometimes
necessary to use complicated language to express them
without becoming confusing. If anyone finds they can't
understand what I've written, I hope they'll feel free
to e-mail me privately and ask me to explain it more
clearly.

Oh, incidentally, 'Jamie' is only a woman's name in
American. In English it's a diminutive of James. It
was invented in Scotland. It seems to have had a
sex-change half-way across the ocean, for some reason.

Jamie

=====


www.strategikon.org


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:37:49 -0800 (PST)

--- AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com wrote:
SNIP
>
> I do UNDERSTAND and WELCOME/CHERISH the diversity
> within Nova Roma. Not
> everyone within our Republic believes in the
> Religio, some are Christian,
> Jewish and in the future might be Muslim, Hindu, or
> other world religions (as
> we continue to grow around the globe). However, I
> still feel that the
> Religio should be incorporated somehow into the
> local group idea

DRUSUS: In Antiquita each city had a Patron Dieity, ie
Athena for Athens, Iupiter for Roma, who was honered
above all others. Each Local group should be required
to select the City's Patron God and to Honor that God.

>
> Perhaps there could be three levels of local groups?
>
> A Proto-version (civitas) which would be dependent
> on the Provincial Governor
> and Legates. Would be administered directly by the
> Governor, with the local
> organizer as a vicar until they qualify to upgrade
> to a municipium.
>
> A Provisional version (municipium) which would be
> semi-independent from the
> Provincial Governor.

DRUSUS: Frist of all a semi-independant municipium is
ahistoric. All decessions of the municipium were
subject to approval or disaproval by the Governer,
with the municipium retaing the right to appeal the
Governer's decession to the Senate. We should retain
that organization. The Municipiae will be set up by
Nova Roma, and Nova Roma will be liable for actions
performed by them. Oversight by the Board of Directors
(Senate) through thier designated representive
(Governer) is a nessicity.

Second, The Roman Empire contained both the Roman
Municipia and the Greek Polis. I Think each local
group should have the option of organizing as a
Municipia or a Polis.

>
> A Fully chartered version (colonia?) which would be
> similar to provisionally
> chartered but would also contain a local Sacerdos
> who would maintain the
> local "temple."
>
> There wouldn't be much difference between a
> Municipium and a Coloniae in this
> model, but the extra status of a Coloniae vs.
> Municipium. This would also
> make it easy for Roman Reconstructionist Pagans to
> know were local worshiping
> groups of Nova Romans are located, so if they were
> traveling they could
> contact them and ask for information on their next
> feast/ritual.
>
> Nova Roma needs to be able to attract those Pagans
> who want to worship the
> Gods of Rome (instead of simply reading about them),
> and Nova Roma needs to
> be able to attract those non-Pagans who would make
> excellent citizens and
> contribute to the whole of the Micronation. No one
> should feel alienated.
>
> It nice to see people discussing the idea of local
> groups. I think local
> groupings of citizens is really what is going to
> take Nova Roma WAY into a
> successful future!
>
> In Fellowship:
>
> G. Modius Athanasius
>
>
> In a message dated 11/10/2002 12:26:30 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> christer.edling@telia.com writes:
>
> > Local chapters would consist of citizens who live
> within a given
> > geographic area, who get together on a regular
> basis to hold events,
> > sponsor activities, recruit new citizens, study
> Roman arts and
> > sciences, etc. etc. etc. They could be in a given
> urban area, a
> > larger suburban/rural area, or even on a single
> college campus.
> > Naturally informal groups of cives can already do
> these sorts of
> > things, but the local chapter would be for those
> people who wanted to
> > do such on a regular basis, with some sort of
> structure and official
> > support.
> >
> > I envision a two-tier system for local chapters.
> The first tier would
> > be for chapters just starting out, which I call
> the "civitas". It
> > would be very dependent on the provincial governor
> for support,
> > organization, etc. and would stay in this level
> for at least a year
> > while it starts to hold regular events, get a feel
> for the social
> > dynamics of the group (including how much time
> members have to
> > commit), etc. Once a certain threshold was reached
> (X number of
> > events in a year, Y number of cives willing to
> commit to the chapter,
> > etc.) it could petition the governor to be
> promoted to the next tier,
> > which I call the "municipium".
> >
> > The municipium would have a much greater degree of
> independence from
> > the provincial governor (although never completely
> cut loose from the
> > provincial administration). It would elect its own
> council and
> > magistrates (duumviri, aediles, quaestores, etc.),
> be allowed to
> > maintain its own bank account, hold its own events
> without prior
> > approval, etc.
> >
> > I can foresee such local chapters springing up all
> over the place,
> > affording cives the opportunity for regular
> face-to-face interaction,
> > without necessarily requiring a huge commitment
> (unless one wanted
> > to).
> >
> > --
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:42:05 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 2:39:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:

> Second, The Roman Empire contained both the Roman
> Municipia and the Greek Polis. I Think each local
> group should have the option of organizing as a
> Municipia or a Polis.

In your opinion how would a Municipia and a Polis be governed? How would
they be different? How would they be similar?

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:44:22 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 2:39:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:

> DRUSUS: In Antiquita each city had a Patron Dieity, ie
> Athena for Athens, Iupiter for Roma, who was honered
> above all others. Each Local group should be required
> to select the City's Patron God and to Honor that God.

Athens was dedicated to Athena, but they had festivals honoring several
deities, and not all of her (ie., Athens) priests/priestesses were dedicated
strictly to her (Athena) worship. I think it is a good idea for a local
group to have a Patron, but I don't think that would prohibit them from
honoring other deities.

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:11:41 +0100

Salvete Omnes,


> It nice to see people discussing the idea of local groups. I think local
> groupings of citizens is really what is going to take Nova Roma WAY into a
> successful future!

The more I read about this idea and the more I like it!!
The local recognition process will create a real culture within Nova Roma. I
said "real" because of course there is nothing like face to face meeting.
We should keep on talking about this, I think something really interesting will
emerge.

Valete,

--
Sextus Apollonius Scipio for Quaestor

My program at http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
Come and Read!!

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through MailService.MS -> http://www.MailService.ms

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:15:37 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 3:12:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
scipio_apollonius@mailservice.ms writes:

> The local recognition process will create a real culture within Nova Roma.

This is the core of local groups. Right now Nova Roma is primarily on
on-line sub-culture. I would like to see the On-Line Nova Roma become the
minority. We cannot build up a culture until we starting working together
locally with people.

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:16:52 EST

Very well thought out, G. Modius. I agree with your thoughts on this matter.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:22:28 EST

During some reading on the digs at Caesarea Maritime in Israel, I noted that
cities had a genius for their cities as well as patron dieties. Also, the
township founded by the Romans near the current city of Bath was dedicated to
Sulis-Minerva. Sulis was a Celtic goddess who had attributes of healing,
death, and prophecy; so it was perfectly acceptable to the Romans to equate
her with Minerva, who also had attributes of healing and knowledge of things
hidden.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:23:32 -0800 (PST)

--- AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/10/2002 2:39:20 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > Second, The Roman Empire contained both the Roman
> > Municipia and the Greek Polis. I Think each local
> > group should have the option of organizing as a
> > Municipia or a Polis.
>
> In your opinion how would a Municipia and a Polis be
> governed? How would
> they be different? How would they be similar?
>

Basicly the Polis was more Democraticly orientied with
the assembly having more powers, while the municipia
placed more power in the hands of the magistrates. IE
in a municipia the Magistrates could decide on the
budget, in a Polis they would have to submit the
spending proposals to an assembly.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 15:41:56 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 3:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:

> Basicly the Polis was more Democraticly orientied with
> the assembly having more powers, while the municipia
> placed more power in the hands of the magistrates. IE
> in a municipia the Magistrates could decide on the
> budget, in a Polis they would have to submit the
> spending proposals to an assembly.

Thank you for the clarification. Makes perfect sense to me, from my
understanding the Polis was the Greek mode of civil administration.

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 2
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:56:10 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

A new and exciting contest, offered by Aedilis Plebis
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix:


PHOTO CONTEST

A very simple contest: 10 photos of Roman-era
monuments to recognize.


10 days long one photo will be posted each day. The
photo will contain a whole monument, or a very large
part of it.


You can participate by sending an email to
consulromanus@yahoo.com (put “PHOTO” in the subject
line), with your Nova Roma name and the correct
answer.


Today's new photo can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/consulromanus/photo.html


Different kind of answers are possible, as shown in
this example:
A photo of the Pantheon can be described as:
Pantheon
Pantheon, Rome
Temple of Agrippa
Pantheon, Italy
Agrippa’s temple (Pantheon)
…
These are all correct answers; just make clear that
you recognize the monument on the photo!


All correct answers will be put together each day, and
my totally innocent two year old neighbour will pick
out a winner at random.

Everyone’s results will be presented each day in a
hit-parade.


*********
Today's winner:
Titus Labienus Fortunatus

Congratulations!!


All others who have also submitted a correct answer:
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Jullila Sempronia Magna
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus
Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Titus Licinius Crassus


The correct answer:
Hadrian's wall, in Northern England.

*********

So participate as much as possible to become the best
and greatest “monument-specialist”!


Valete bene



=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] WITHDRAWL OF CANDIDACY FOR QUAESTOR
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:58:24 EST

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to SPQNR. Salve, omnes.

I must regretfully withdraw my bid for candidacy for quaestor. I have been
informed that I am ineligible at the current time. This is the correct and
lawful decision of the consuls. Good fortune to the other candidates. Vale.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 3
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:03:47 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?


Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones…

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, …

Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don’t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting “QUIZ”
in the subject line.

The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 6:
1. What does DXIV equal? (514)

2.What is ‘lorica segmentata’? (a type of armour)

3. This emperor, was blamed for a fire... (Nero)

4. What is a ‘ballista’? (giant crossbow, siege
weapon)

5. What is a ‘pilum’? (spear, used by infantry)

-----
Points so far:
Sextus Apollonius Scipio – 35
Titus Labienus Fortunatus – 30
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus – 30
Julilla Sempronia Magna – 30
Spurius Postumius Tubertus – 27
Quintus Lanius Paulinus – 22,5
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus – 20
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus – 20
Marcus Octavius Germanicus – 19
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix – 18
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus – 15
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus – 13
Marcus Arminius Maior – 10
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola – 10
Lithia Cassia – 9
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia – 8
Vivius Ambrosius Caesariensis – 5
Aulus Octavius Serenus – 4


And the first one to answer the bonus question correct
was Quintus Lanius Paulinus; congratulations! The
correct answer:
Cuneus = irregular calvalry unit // wedge formation

-----


Here are today's questions:

***************

1. What is a gladiator?

2. This emperor was known for his systematic and
intense persecution of Christians. During his reign,
he required citizens of the empire to carry papers
certifying that they had offered sacrifices to Roman
deities before official witnesses. Who was he?

3. What relationship was Augustus to Julius Caesar?
- Great-nephew and adopted son
- Grandson and adopted son
- Son
- Nephew and adopted son

4. What tribe did Boudicca lead ?
- Iceni
- Eburones
- Nervii
- Bituriges

5. What was a ‘scutum’?

***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!


Valete bene



=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 3
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:07:08 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete...

The subject line should of course be "Quiz 7" and not
3... My excuses.

Valete bene


--- Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
<consulromanus@yahoo.com> wrote: > Salvete!
>
> QUIZ
>
> Who knows most on Ancient Rome?
>
>
> Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
> choice and some not; some difficult ones and some
> easy
> ones…


=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	CSSWarspite@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:14:31 EST

Ok
Well I have been looking at all this and as I said before great idea.But
say like my wife and myselfs Rennie group hops in re-adjust everthing to
NovaRoma standerds for Goverment and has over 10 people who become
members.Now wouldnt this set up a quick Civium or city state ((Not sure what
to call it)) in a resently empty area?Also what about limation on amount of
time a person can maintain office.SCA wise there is a fellow who has held
office for about 30 years and is a bit loony?
Ok just my 2 denri on the subject.

Marcus Ambrisoi Incendium


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:24:13 EST

In a message dated 11/10/2002 5:17:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CSSWarspite@aol.com writes:

> Well I have been looking at all this and as I said before great idea.But
> say like my wife and myselfs Rennie group hops in re-adjust everthing to
> NovaRoma standerds for Goverment and has over 10 people who become
> members.Now wouldnt this set up a quick Civium or city state ((Not sure
> what
> to call it)) in a resently empty area?Also what about limation on amount of
>
> time a person can maintain office.SCA wise there is a fellow who has held
> office for about 30 years and is a bit loony?
> Ok just my 2 denri on the subject.
>
> Marcus Ambrisoi Incendium

All of these things should be addressed. But my opinion would be that if the
requirements are met then you could have the necessary status, regardless of
time.

The "proto-version" would be for those who are "trying" to establish
something. If someone already has a working group and wants to affiliate
with Nova Roma, I think they should have to meet some criteria, but once that
is met then they should have the status applied for.

The issue of local leadership is an interesting issue. Perhaps some leeway
could be given to each local group.

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea... Part II-Response of M. Ambrisoi
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:31:37 EST

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus. Vale.

Having been in the SCA for 26 years as of the end of October, I can
definitely agree with your assessment of some of our long-term barons. Some
of them have been on their seats for so long they believe they actually are
hereditary noblemen. It was something of a humbling experience for me to
learn that the only Old Roman Galeri ever to be consul is chiefly remembered
for his work on Rome's sewer system. I expect that the foundation of local
groups in NR will give all the participants a much better understanding of
how the Constitution actually should work. Vale.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]