Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:25:36 -0000

Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:

[In reply to Quintus Fabius Maximus]

> There is a way to know. If you let the People actually *vote* on a
> proposal, you would know how many of them do support that proposal.
>
> But as consul Sulla *vetoed* the presentation of such proposals to
> the People, and *vetoed* as well the presentation of such proposals
> to the Senate, with your constant and inconditional support in both
> occasions, I guess we will have to believe in your "instinct".

No, dear Astur, we have another choice. We can, as a nation, insure
that on January 1st of 2756 a.u.c., when the two new consuls take
office, neither of them is Quintus Fabius Maximus. That way he will
not have a consular veto to interpose, and our current junior consul
will have departed his office. With Fortunatus and Quintilianus as
consuls, the People *will* be able to vote on the proposal, as you
suggest.

-- Marinus (who thinks the world and all of QFM as a historian,
but would rather he not be consul)

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:09:21 EST

In a message dated 11/12/02 4:01:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:

> But as consul Sulla *vetoed* the presentation of such proposals to the
> People, and *vetoed* as well the presentation of such proposals to the
> Senate, with your constant and inconditional support in both occasions,
> I guess we will have to believe in your "instinct".

Well, of course Tribune Salix. Since the Senate never asked for the peoples'
referendum, most Senators being ill informed on the actual merits of what we
discussing with all sorts of rhetoric about bondage, mistreatment and the
like, if I had the power I would have vetoed it as well.
When one rushes to a judgment, one invariably ends up paying the price. The
people would have ended up being asked to vote on something they really did
not understand, except through "buzz" words. And these "buzz" words had
nothing to with the actual problem the Senior Consul wished to resolve. It
was resolved with an edictum from the Censors, though I wanted it placed as a
Consular edictum.
I believe the bulk of the populace here is content with the status quo. I
need more than twenty people to convince me otherwise.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:11:13 EST

In a message dated 11/12/02 4:27:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
equitius_marinus@yahoo.com writes:

> Marinus (who thinks the world and all of QFM as a historian,
> but would rather he not be consul)
>
>

Why because I was one and you are not...pretty petty of you, Manius.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:32:53 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com escribió: > In a message dated 11/12/02
4:01:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> salixastur@yahoo.es writes:
>
>
> > But as consul Sulla *vetoed* the presentation of such proposals to
> > the People, and *vetoed* as well the presentation of such proposals
> > to the Senate, with your constant and inconditional support in both
> > occasions, I guess we will have to believe in your "instinct".
>
> Well, of course Tribune Salix. Since the Senate never asked for the
> peoples' referendum, most Senators being ill informed on the actual
> merits of what we discussing with all sorts of rhetoric about
> bondage, mistreatment and the like, if I had the power I would have
> vetoed it as well.
> When one rushes to a judgment, one invariably ends up paying the
> price. The people would have ended up being asked to vote on
> something they really did not understand, except through "buzz"
> words. And these "buzz" words had nothing to with the actual problem
> the Senior Consul wished to resolve.

Let me see if I have understood your line of reasoning correctly.

What you are saying is that the senatores of Nova Roma were not able to
make the right decision, and thus needed to be "guided" by you and the
iunior consul. Is that correct? Is this inability to take the right
decision linked to the fact that you and the iunior consul did not like
the decision they were going to take?

Do you think that this will happen again in the future? Perhaps the
next time that a large part of the Senate thinks in a way that is
different to your own way?

> It was resolved with an edictum from the Censors, though I wanted it
> placed as a Consular edictum.

No, it is not solved. The gens system is not what it should be.

> I believe the bulk of the populace here is content with the status
> quo. I need more than twenty people to convince me otherwise.

How many people do you need, senator? Or are you going to "guide" the
People through consular veto, to make sure that they make the "right" decision?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A New question for candidates and for voters
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:40:22 -0500

Friends, Romans, Countryman lend me your EYES ( with apologies to Will S.)
I would like to start a discussion on the Nova Roma marketing campaign and strategy for bring about more public awareness of our nation and its goals. We have at this time a GREAT website, and the main list plus other lists and chat rooms for both internal and external communications. If I am successful in my bid to be elected Curator Differium and with everybody's help I get the Eagle newsletter flying again, we will have one more piece for a marketing strategy and campaign.

But to what end? How is the newsletter tied in with the web site, and the other communication organs of the state? What information will we be presenting to the world at large. Will we have a newsletter version of the discussions on the main list? (HOPE NOT) Will it simply be a list of upcoming events and after action reports, Will the Quaestors give monthly reports on our finances?
I guess my biggest question is what do you the citizens of Nova Roma want in the Eagle . What do the candidates who will be next years leaders want in the Eagle? I am currently looking at an Email newsletter instead of a paper one. Do you support this approach? What should the newsletter have that the website does not have? How much should we charge for new subscriptions? I hope this gets a good discussion going on a marketing plan for Nova Roma.

Hoping to see you at the ballot box,

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Candidate For Curator Differium and Quaestor
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Marcus Octavius Germanicus for Censor?
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:08:25 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Indeed, there are few things that would please me more than to see
Vado,Ericius, Lucius Marius, and a few others come back. Although it has
aroused the ire of their enemies, I'll keep trying.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>

I am glad you openly express your desire to see the embezzler who made
off with NR money return.

Nerva

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath of Office as Praetrix Suffecta
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:02:24 -0500

I, Patricia Cassia (Patricia J. Bradford), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Patricia Cassia, swear to honor the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life. In addition, as Priestess
of Minerva, I make offering to the Goddess of Wisdom and ask that She
bless me and all of us in Nova Roma, that we may serve with honor and
effectively advance the goals of our nation.

I, Patricia Cassia, swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as
the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Patricia Cassia, swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Patricia Cassia, further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Praetrix to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Praetrix and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Given this 12th day of November in the year of the Consulship of Marcus
Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, the 2755th year
a.u.c.

-----
Patricia Cassia
Praetrix Suffecta
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:13:33 -0000

Earlier, I signed off with:

> > Marinus (who thinks the world and all of QFM as a historian,
> > but would rather he not be consul)

Quintus Fabius Maximus asked:

> Why because I was one and you are not...

Since you ask, no. I've no objection in general to consulars serving
a second term, though I do think those consulars should spend the
traditional 10 years between terms. Nor is my aversion to your taking
office a second time based on your having held the office in the
past.

> pretty petty of you, Manius.

I'm not sure who Manius might be, but assuming you meant me, and just
can't spell, then no, it's not pettiness. It *is* a concern for the
direction of our republic, and my conviction that your vision of the
future of Nova Roma is very different from mine. Furthermore, my
observations have convinced me that you are an opportunist and a
hypocrite, and while such persons often excel as academics, they are
ill suited to public office.

-- Marinus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Latin Question
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:18:30 -0800 (PST)

Hello,
Can anyone tell me what the Latin is for North and South?
Thanks

Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

---------------------------------
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:39:53 -0000

Salvete,

An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that splitting
Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could go
it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own laws.
No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups in South
America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own continent.

The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They could
remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both Republics. But if
Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this would
create a problem. A better solution would be to have a citizen who
resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias become a new
Paterfamilias on his own.

I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
it would be better to welcome it.

Nerva


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Latin Question
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:23:49 -0500

Sp. Postumius Tubertus M. Bianchio Antonio S.P.D.

Salve,

North(-ern, I assume)=septemtrionalis, septemtrionale
South(-ern, again, assumed)=australis, australe

Optime Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus
Retiarius Lacuum Magnorum
Scriba Curatoris Araneae
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" -- Q. Horati Flacci

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Nova Roma Scholarships et Al.
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:25:16 -0500

Sp. Postumius Tubertus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete Amici,

The post of the Praetor Patricia Cassia made me think about something I have been contemplating for a while now. I know Nova Roma doesn't have the money at the moment, but perhaps we should look into, at a later date, offering scholarships to accredited universities worldwide for students of Graeco-Roman arts and such. I know it would at least be a good way to get us out into the general public, specifically as a benefactor, and, as well, perhaps attract more citizens.

As well, rather than type up a whole new header and new everything to make another message, I'd like to start up a research group, for anyone who's interested. Just a small group of people, perhaps even a fully chartered sodalitas, who have come together for the sole purpose of researching various topics relating to Rome and Roman related material, and perhaps publishing such research into the form of real research papers, journals, and so on. Also, another way to get our name out there with good connotation, and another, possible, source of income.

However, with this second proposal (the second paragraph, that is), I'm not sure, and perhaps a good lawyer or someone who knows this can tell me, as to our maintaining status as a non profit corporation. Perhaps someone could fill me in on this.

Anyway, that's all from the Postumian Thought-Pot for now. I'll keep you posted as to what comes out next.

Optime Valete Amici,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus
Retiarius Lacuum Magnorum
Scriba Curatoris Araneae
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" -- Q. Horati Flacci

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Latin Question
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:24:03 -0600

Salve Marce Bianchi

> Can anyone tell me what the Latin is for North and South?

As nouns:
septentriones et meridies

As adjectives:
septentrionalis et australis

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Latin Question
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:29:34 -0800 (PST)

Thanks
Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org> wrote:Salve Marce Bianchi

> Can anyone tell me what the Latin is for North and South?

As nouns:
septentriones et meridies

As adjectives:
septentrionalis et australis

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

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Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

---------------------------------
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U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:35:45 EST

In a message dated 11/12/2002 10:11:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gcassiusnerva@cs.com writes:

> I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
> America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
> it would be better to welcome it.

Personally, I think a schism would be the bad way to go. We, as a people,
NEED to learn to cooperate and work together. I don't mean we should agree
all the time, but we should be able to work together in a spirit of
community.

There are many in Europe that have my utmost respect, just as there are many
in the US that I respect as well. But there are some in Europe that I have
little respect for, as there are in the US. I have not been around as long
as some have, but I do not see this tension.

Perhaps, Nerva, you should stay out of the rumor mongering sewer of the Back
Ally. If you swim in negativity, it will eventually overcome you.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:46:28 -0600 (CST)

Salve Nerva,

> An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that splitting
> Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could go
> it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own laws.
> No more American-European tension.

What tension? I haven't noticed any. Some of my best friends in Nova Roma
are Swedes, Spaniards, Belgians... - and Americans.

There was a quarrel a year ago regarding languages on the main list. The
most vocal partipants on both sides - Vedia and Apollonius - have both
departed, and the matter was settled amicably.

> The smaller NR groups in South
> America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
> choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
> and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own continent.

Which would benefit the other "side" not at all. Two Novae Romae, each
trying to use the name, with separate web sites and separate Senates?
That would create chaos and confusion, nothing more.

> I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
> America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
> it would be better to welcome it.

I shall strive to ensure that that evil day never comes.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"Daniel" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:49:42 -0000

Salvete omnes.
I would like to express my strongest opposition to the idea of
splitting NR. It would be too much distressing. We must remain united
despite the differences, which, by the way will always exist. Lets
dream for a better Nova Roma.
Valete bene
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Proprætor provincialis Argentinæ
Candidate for Tribunus Plebis
Factio Veneta (Crux Australis)

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@c...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that
splitting
> Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could
go
> it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own
laws.
> No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups in South
> America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
> choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it
easier
> and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own
continent.
>
> The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They could
> remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both Republics. But
if
> Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this would
> create a problem. A better solution would be to have a citizen who
> resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias become a new
> Paterfamilias on his own.
>
> I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
> America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting
it,
> it would be better to welcome it.
>
> Nerva

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:33:36 -0000

Gaius Cassius Nerva tells us that he was

> ... thinking that splitting Nova Roma would not be a bad thing.

I'm sure there are many people who would like to drive a wedge
between different geographical portions of our republic, yes.

> If this happened, Europe could go it's own way, have her own
> magistrates and senate, have her own laws.

Interesting that you see it as a fundamentally European/American
issue. I think you may be missing some nuances. My observation is
that the principle questions which people here in NR polarize over
have more to do with whether they want to see NR as a modern
reestablishment of the Roman republic, or a more strict recreation
which turns back the clock as much as possible.

While I do think it's fair to suggest that more Europeans would
come down on the former position, with a number of fairly vocal
Americans on the later, I'm not at all convinced that it's anywhere
near absolute. Furthermore, I think that very few people are so
bothered by the difference of viewpoint that they would want to
sunder the republic because of it. Nova Roma will grow, and as time
goes by it will grow in a way that is determined by the collective
will of the Senate and the People.

While some of the more insular Americans among us might have a hard
time seeing things from the perspective of our European, South
American, African, and Australian citizens (or our Canadian citizens
for that matter) I do think that many of us who live in the US manage
to do so reasonably well. I enjoy several excellent friendships with
citizens from around the world. Senator Audens seems to do so also.
I know there are others, many of us military veterans who have lived
overseas and lived at first hand in different cultures, but also many
who simply have the patience and empathy to reach out in an effort
to bridge the gulfs which divide us. I know the non-English speaking
citizens make a tremendous effort to be accomodating to us, and I
try to do what I can to reciprocate that effort. (Even if my Latin
is horrid.)

-- Marinus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:41:38 EST

In a message dated 11/12/02 5:33:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:

> What you are saying is that the senatores of Nova Roma were not able to
> make the right decision, and thus needed to be "guided" by you and the
> iunior consul. Is that correct? Is this inability to take the right
> decision linked to the fact that you and the iunior consul did not like
> the decision they were going to take?
>

Tribune Salix. Obviously we are on two sides of the fence here. But what
about the rights of the Paterfamilias? What about the rights of those Gens
members who don't want to be independent and would be against their wish?
Who speaks for them? Many Paterfamilias have invested time and money and
even pride in their Gens. Yet you would ignore their voice? I would
certainly hope not.

> Do you think that this will happen again in the future? Perhaps the
> next time that a large part of the Senate thinks in a way that is
> different to your own way?
>
> > It was resolved with an edictum from the Censors, though I wanted it
> > placed as a Consular edictum.
>
> No, it is not solved. The gens system is not what it should be.

Tribune Salix. Who made you the Emperor here? Why is your vision so
friggin' right and mine so wrong? It was resolved.
If you recall the biggest concern of the Senior Consul and members of the
Senate was that Gens members were being held against their will by "abusive"
Paterfamilias.
The censors issued an edictum allowing all gens members that felt they were
under duress the ability to leave.
As I said before the historical argument falls flat on its face, when you
consider the other a-historical things that happen here. Yet you would put a
people through upheaval that many may not want, and worse deprive citizens of
their rights, simply because you think you are right? That's scary...

>
> > I believe the bulk of the populace here is content with the status
> > quo. I need more than twenty people to convince me otherwise.
>
> How many people do you need, senator? Or are you going to "guide" the
> People through consular veto, to make sure that they make the "right"
> decision?
>

Very good of you to put words into my mouth. My concern is all the parties
involved here, Tribune. Not just people that agree with you.
Like I said. If the majority of the people wish this done, it will be done.
But it will be done carefully and deliberately, there will be no rush to
judgment that will cause more problems in the long run.

The Iuniore Consul was concerned with the wording of the Cassian proposal.
When no satisfaction was forecoming, he did the only thing he felt he could
do.
Veto. And if you condemn him for it, then you do not understand the Roman
system of checks and balances by how we operate.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
(Titles too numerous to list)

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:51:44 EST

In a message dated 11/12/02 7:14:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
equitius_marinus@yahoo.com writes:

> Furthermore, my
> observations have convinced me that you are an opportunist and a
> hypocrite, and while such persons often excel as academics, they are
> ill suited to public office.
>
>

Ohh that hurt. I'm neither. And you are right. I misspelled your name.
Sorry.
I am believer in Flavius Vedius' vision. And I believe in a reconstructed
Rome as close as physically possible, not a modern reconstruction. I'm sorry
that that vision does not agree with yours.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:17:57 -0800 (PST)

I thought we had to become an Empire and get really going for a 150 years or so before we split into the western half and the....umm....farther western half.
MBA
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> wrote:
Salve Nerva,

> An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that splitting
> Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could go
> it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own laws.
> No more American-European tension.

What tension? I haven't noticed any. Some of my best friends in Nova Roma
are Swedes, Spaniards, Belgians... - and Americans.

There was a quarrel a year ago regarding languages on the main list. The
most vocal partipants on both sides - Vedia and Apollonius - have both
departed, and the matter was settled amicably.

> The smaller NR groups in South
> America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
> choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
> and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own continent.

Which would benefit the other "side" not at all. Two Novae Romae, each
trying to use the name, with separate web sites and separate Senates?
That would create chaos and confusion, nothing more.

> I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
> America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
> it would be better to welcome it.

I shall strive to ensure that that evil day never comes.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 04:27:25 -0000

Earlier, I wrote (to QFM):

> > Furthermore, my
> > observations have convinced me that you are an opportunist and a
> > hypocrite, and while such persons often excel as academics, they
> > are ill suited to public office.

Quintus Fabius Maximus replied:

> Ohh that hurt.

I apologise for the hurt, but not for answering you plainly when
you asked. Had I the wit to answer you as plainly in a way that
would not be likely to hurt, I assure you I'd have chosen that means.

> I'm neither.

I look forward to the future observations of your behavior which
will prove my working hypothesis incorrect. I would feel much
better if I could admire you in all respects, rather than the
conditional admiration I feel for you now. But for the moment, I
have only what I can perceive from your posts that I have read,
and such as I can gather about you from discussions with our common
associates. I know this must be an incomplete and imperfect picture,
and would hope that we may meet in person sometime in the future.
Please be assured that my opinions of your ethical shortcomings are
just that, opinions based on observations. I am quite willing to
change them based on new information.

> And you are right. I misspelled your name. Sorry.

Apology fully accepted. Thank you for being gracious.

> I am believer in Flavius Vedius' vision. And I believe in a
> reconstructed Rome as close as physically possible, not a modern
> reconstruction.

On this I think we can disagree with mutual respect. I think your
vision is shared by L. Sicinius Drusus, a man I find highly
admirable in character. It is not the difference in vision which
causes the greatest gulf between you and me in my mind, sir.

-- Marinus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 04:47:41 -0000

My name is Julilla Sempronia, and I have borne that nomen and
praenomen since April of 1997. I am writing to illustrate the
position that I and slightly fewer than 200 other cives NovaRomani
face: the closure of our gens to new brethren. Granted, that is a
small percentage of our total population, and sadly, we grow smaller
every day.

I am NOT happy with the status quo of our current gens system, and I
am convinced that this affects too many of my fellow cives to ignore,
as illustrated below.

As of this writing, Nova Roman has 1,601 cives in 413 gens. Of these,
100 Gens are closed to new members, affecting 195 cives within
(approximately 12% of the current population). A few of these closed
gentes have several cives, but most grew to only 1-2 before they were
closed to new admissions.

I was accepted into gens Sempronia and NovaRoma on 19 March of 2001,
and that only after persistently writing the gens paterfamilias,
Tiberius Sempronius Licinius -- I applied 1 January 2001. His
acceptance was the last communication I have had with him, and
shortly after I was allowed in, gens whose pater or materfamilias
failed to respond to applications were closed. I wrote to my
paterfamilias subsequently, but he never responded, and the URL to
the site listed for our gens is now a dead link.

I am a Sempronia. I am proud of my nomen. It is who I am. But I have
no-one else to share in this pride, the history of the name, the
fellowship.

Cives, if I were the only person in these straights, I would remain
silent. But gens Sempronia is NOT alone. Many other ancient and
illustrious names, bearing as rich a heritage as the spiritual
descendents of Tiberius and Caius Sempronius Gracchus are doomed to
die out unless gens reform becomes a reality.

What is to become of gens Antonia, Aurelia, Caecilia, Drusa, Furia,
Livia, Marcella, Portia, Ulpia, Valeria, Vedia, and the rest? Must we
remain forever locked out from the fellowship of family members?

I was deeply disappointed to see senatorial discussion of this
critical issue vetoed earlier this fall. I urge candidates and cives
to join together to find full and fair resolution to the problems
with our gens system.

Gratias plurimas for listening.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 05:18:36 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@b...> wrote:
>
> Our current gens system is not historical and I support efforts to
> reform it, however, I would not favor any proposal that would force
> exisitng gens relationships to change over the objections of the
> gens members.
>
> The Tribune's veto (in my opinion) should only be used to protect
> the people from abuses of power. If a gens reform law was
> promulgated that forced civies to change their current gens
> arrangement against their will, as Tribune I would consider a veto
> if so appealed to by those cives.
>
> Valete,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas
> Consular Quaestor
> Candidate for Tribune

Avete omnes

I too am basically in favor of gens reform (I have - of course - a
history in this matter).

Would I use my Veto? I tend to say: No.

Whether I would use my veto power on this issue is of course a tricky
question. Tribunes are to use their veto power to protect people from
abuses of power, I can certainly agree with that statement by my co-
candidate.

However, a gens reform includes necessarily a change in the
Constitution itself with a (collegially) unopposed Consul (or under
certain circumstances also a Praetor) necessary to promulgate the
bill followed by both a vote by the Senate (2/3 majority) and a
Comitia centuriata vote (taken all together quite adequate safeguards
against abuse). Tribunes have no power to initiate legislation to
change the Constituion themsleves (because they cannot call to order
the Comitia Centuriata). If a Tribune vetos an attempt to change the
Constitution according to established legal procedures it would be a
pure policy move rather than a protection of the Constitution itself
(because it allows for changes).

I personally do not believe that the policy-making powers of the
Tribunes reach just that far to allow them to interfere in proposed
constitutional amendments. They should just be extra-vigilant that
all procedures are followed to the letter and spirit of the
Constitution and the law. One cannot think of all possible
circumstances now but I would most probably not interfere with my
Veto, unless someone pointed out convincingly to me the wrongs of my
logic (e.g. because he/she can convince me that certain principles in
the Constitution reign supreme over others and/or are immutable)

Avete et Valete

Marcus Marcius Rex
Candidate for Tribune

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:45:02 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

There is a tension in Nova Roma, one between the
Reconstructionists and the Modernists. There seems to
be more of the former in America and the later in
Europe, but you can't simply draw a line on a map to
seperate the two view points.

One reason this tension erupts into discord from time
to time is both sides have attempted to write thier
viewpoint into law, forcing the others to be the
"right" kind of Nova Roman.

Unless both sides in this dispute are willing to use
more persusion and less force, then one day there will
be two Nova Romas, a Reconstructionist Nova Roma and a
Modernist Nova Roma. You can't force someone to to be
the "right" kind of Roman. We don't have a "Berlin
Wall" around our nation, citizens are free to leave
any time they wish, and they will leave if you attempt
to force them to be Modern or Reconstructionist
against thier will.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roma Scholarships et Al.
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:01:31 -0500

Salve ,Sp. Postumius Tubertus Quiritibus S.P.D.

In my announcement for Quaestor I stated that it was my goal to establish two funds in NR during my term. One would be a disaster relief fund to help with something like the earthquakes in Italy in October. The second fund would be a scholarship to students studying Classics, or Ancient history, or any other field of study we wanted to give money to. We could start off small and give one scholarship per province of say $100.00 US. This would help to get our nose in the tent as it were and build on that. At any Nova Roma events a special collection for that province that more events the more scholarship fund could be raised. We could also work to come up with other funding sources for this will be a work in progress and once established will last as long as NR lasts (1229 years)?

Vale,

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Candidate for Quaestor and Curator Differium
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: Sp. Postumius Tubertus
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:38 PM
To: Main List
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roma Scholarships et Al.

Sp. Postumius Tubertus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete Amici,

The post of the Praetor Patricia Cassia made me think about something I have been contemplating for a while now. I know Nova Roma doesn't have the money at the moment, but perhaps we should look into, at a later date, offering scholarships to accredited universities worldwide for students of Graeco-Roman arts and such. I know it would at least be a good way to get us out into the general public, specifically as a benefactor, and, as well, perhaps attract more citizens.

As well, rather than type up a whole new header and new everything to make another message, I'd like to start up a research group, for anyone who's interested. Just a small group of people, perhaps even a fully chartered sodalitas, who have come together for the sole purpose of researching various topics relating to Rome and Roman related material, and perhaps publishing such research into the form of real research papers, journals, and so on. Also, another way to get our name out there with good connotation, and another, possible, source of income.

However, with this second proposal (the second paragraph, that is), I'm not sure, and perhaps a good lawyer or someone who knows this can tell me, as to our maintaining status as a non profit corporation. Perhaps someone could fill me in on this.

Anyway, that's all from the Postumian Thought-Pot for now. I'll keep you posted as to what comes out next.

Optime Valete Amici,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus
Retiarius Lacuum Magnorum
Scriba Curatoris Araneae
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" -- Q. Horati Flacci

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:23:37 -0500

Salve, L. Sicinius Drusus

When we have the billions of dollars or euros we will need to build the city of Nova Roma we can build two ,one "modern" and one "ancient". Then we can offer the best of both to the most people. We will also make billions from the tourist that will surely show up to
"see " what Rome looked like and how it might have look had the Republic lived to modern times .

Vale, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Candidate for Quaestor and Curator Differium

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:12 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two

Salvete Quirites,

There is a tension in Nova Roma, one between the
Reconstructionists and the Modernists. There seems to
be more of the former in America and the later in
Europe, but you can't simply draw a line on a map to
seperate the two view points.

One reason this tension erupts into discord from time
to time is both sides have attempted to write thier
viewpoint into law, forcing the others to be the
"right" kind of Nova Roman.

Unless both sides in this dispute are willing to use
more persusion and less force, then one day there will
be two Nova Romas, a Reconstructionist Nova Roma and a
Modernist Nova Roma. You can't force someone to to be
the "right" kind of Roman. We don't have a "Berlin
Wall" around our nation, citizens are free to leave
any time they wish, and they will leave if you attempt
to force them to be Modern or Reconstructionist
against thier will.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Germanicus pro Censor
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <piparskegg@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:27:53 -0800 (PST)

Avete Omnes,

Venator scripsit:

I do not often comment in the Forum.

I am constrained by friendship in this case.

I support Marcus Octavius Germanicus for Censor.

He is a good man and true in my eyes.
He is a Roman of the first water.
He has been a guest in my home and is welcome back.

In Amicus sub Fidelis - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"M. Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:50:28 +1100

Yes, because as we all know, the world can be divided between Europe and
America......

on behalf of the cives of my Province, and the Provinces of other
non-northern provinces.....

Marcus Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:39 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two

> Salvete,
>
> An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that splitting
> Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could go
> it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own laws.
> No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups in South
> America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
> choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
> and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own continent.
>
> The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They could
> remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both Republics. But if
> Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this would
> create a problem. A better solution would be to have a citizen who
> resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias become a new
> Paterfamilias on his own.
>
> I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
> America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
> it would be better to welcome it.
>
> Nerva
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:28:13 -0800 (PST)

Salve Cassius Nerva,

> I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
> America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
> it would be better to welcome it.

I thought, Honorable Nerva, that we were Romans before anything else. Don't you share
this view? I am quite surprised, and somewhere saddened, to read that this obvious
principle might not be shared by all Nova Romans. If you do not consider yourself as
being Roman before anything else, then what are you doing in Nova Roma?
You have posted quite a few of surprising, negative and destructive messages recently. I
am still sure that you can do better than this and that you can come back to more
reasonable and balanced ideas.

Vale,

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Candidate for Quaestor

My program at: http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] To Congratulate and to release a Scriba.
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:32:47 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Omnes,

I join Illustrious Senator Caeso Fabius Quintilianus in his congratulations for the
election of these two admired and honored magistrates.
I would like also to thank the Senate to have made this important choice.

Valete,

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Candidate for Quaestor

My program at: http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 289
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:17:39 +0200

Salve,

As I happen to live in the other continent you are referring in your
message I feel that I have to state my opinion on this matter.

I'm personally against your proposal to divide NR into different
parts. The way I see it is that we all are Novaromans. If your
suggestion of dividing the NR should be put under voting and I will
have right to vote I will vote against it.

Vale,

>Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:39:53 -0000
> From: "gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
>Subject: Dividing Nova Roma into Two
>
>Salvete,
>
> An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that splitting
>Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could go
>it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own laws.
> No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups in South
>America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
>choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
>and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own continent.
>
>The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They could
>remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both Republics. But if
>Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this would
>create a problem. A better solution would be to have a citizen who
>resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias become a new
>Paterfamilias on his own.
>
>I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
>America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
>it would be better to welcome it.
>
>Nerva

--
Caius Curius Saturninus

Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Scriba Aedilis (Caeso Fabius Q.) Concursus Primus

Caeso For Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul

e-mail: c.curius@welho.com
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:32:15 +0000 (GMT)

Salve Cai Cassi et Omnes,

>I feel that eventually an NR split will come between
>Europe and America. The tensions have long been
>there. Instead of fighting it, it would be better to
>welcome it.

Rather than repeat myself, I shall merely paste my
opinion as stated in the back alley.

In the back alley, I wrote:

"This really is counter productive. We are all NR
citizens....we should work
on what unites us rather than looking for divisions
which I don't believe
exist, at least for the majority of us. As a European,
I will be voting for
at least 2, and maybe as many as 4, US candidates. I
also expect to receive,
as candidate for Quaestor, a large proportion, if not
a majority of my votes
(If I get any <grin>) from US citizens".

"Any evidence of potential voter fraud that anyone has
should be declared and
presented to the Praetor for investigation, but please
let us stop creating
and exacerbating divisions (ableit the political ones
that are the nature of
the beast) and work together for the common interest
of NR".

It is a shame Cai Cassi, that you do not share this
desire for Nova Roma. I for one, will join with others
and do all in my power to prevent the disintregration
that you advocate.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform
From:	Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:25:45 -0800 (PST)

Maybe we should not allow more gens to be created.
Julilla Sempronia Magna <curatrix@villaivlilla.com> wrote:My name is Julilla Sempronia, and I have borne that nomen and
praenomen since April of 1997. I am writing to illustrate the
position that I and slightly fewer than 200 other cives NovaRomani
face: the closure of our gens to new brethren. Granted, that is a
small percentage of our total population, and sadly, we grow smaller
every day.

I am NOT happy with the status quo of our current gens system, and I
am convinced that this affects too many of my fellow cives to ignore,
as illustrated below.

As of this writing, Nova Roman has 1,601 cives in 413 gens. Of these,
100 Gens are closed to new members, affecting 195 cives within
(approximately 12% of the current population). A few of these closed
gentes have several cives, but most grew to only 1-2 before they were
closed to new admissions.

I was accepted into gens Sempronia and NovaRoma on 19 March of 2001,
and that only after persistently writing the gens paterfamilias,
Tiberius Sempronius Licinius -- I applied 1 January 2001. His
acceptance was the last communication I have had with him, and
shortly after I was allowed in, gens whose pater or materfamilias
failed to respond to applications were closed. I wrote to my
paterfamilias subsequently, but he never responded, and the URL to
the site listed for our gens is now a dead link.

I am a Sempronia. I am proud of my nomen. It is who I am. But I have
no-one else to share in this pride, the history of the name, the
fellowship.

Cives, if I were the only person in these straights, I would remain
silent. But gens Sempronia is NOT alone. Many other ancient and
illustrious names, bearing as rich a heritage as the spiritual
descendents of Tiberius and Caius Sempronius Gracchus are doomed to
die out unless gens reform becomes a reality.

What is to become of gens Antonia, Aurelia, Caecilia, Drusa, Furia,
Livia, Marcella, Portia, Ulpia, Valeria, Vedia, and the rest? Must we
remain forever locked out from the fellowship of family members?

I was deeply disappointed to see senatorial discussion of this
critical issue vetoed earlier this fall. I urge candidates and cives
to join together to find full and fair resolution to the problems
with our gens system.

Gratias plurimas for listening.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:45:39 -0800 (PST)

If we continue to chase people off by trying to force
them to be the "right" kind of Roman, we won't have
billions of Dollars and we won't have any land. All we
will have is two small internet groups that hate each
other.

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:
> Salve, L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> When we have the billions of dollars or euros we
> will need to build the city of Nova Roma we can
> build two ,one "modern" and one "ancient". Then we
> can offer the best of both to the most people. We
> will also make billions from the tourist that will
> surely show up to
> "see " what Rome looked like and how it might have
> look had the Republic lived to modern times .
>
> Vale, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Candidate for Quaestor and Curator Differium
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Sicinius Drusus
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:12 AM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> There is a tension in Nova Roma, one between the
> Reconstructionists and the Modernists. There seems
> to
> be more of the former in America and the later in
> Europe, but you can't simply draw a line on a map to
> seperate the two view points.
>
> One reason this tension erupts into discord from
> time
> to time is both sides have attempted to write thier
> viewpoint into law, forcing the others to be the
> "right" kind of Nova Roman.
>
> Unless both sides in this dispute are willing to use
> more persusion and less force, then one day there
> will
> be two Nova Romas, a Reconstructionist Nova Roma and
> a
> Modernist Nova Roma. You can't force someone to to
> be
> the "right" kind of Roman. We don't have a "Berlin
> Wall" around our nation, citizens are free to leave
> any time they wish, and they will leave if you
> attempt
> to force them to be Modern or Reconstructionist
> against thier will.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> "Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis
> telum est."
> (A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the
> killer's hand.)
> Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:03:39 EST

In a message dated 11/13/02 2:26:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
stakor2000@yahoo.com writes:

> Cives, if I were the only person in these straights, I would remain
> silent. But gens Sempronia is NOT alone. Many other ancient and
> illustrious names, bearing as rich a heritage as the spiritual
> descendents of Tiberius and Caius Sempronius Gracchus are doomed to
> die out unless gens reform becomes a reality.
>
>

Thank you. So what you are saying that those inactive Paterfamilias are
stifling the growth of Gens and indirectly the growth of NR. This makes
sense. So what do we do with those active Gens members and their active
Paterfamilias? There are a few, actually more than a few. We wanted to pass
a lex about inactive Paters, but someone blocked it last year.
I agree that this must be handled and the Censors and Senate will have to
look into it.
But it can be handled by a lex, we do not have to destroy the whole system to
repair one part.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Oath of Office as Curule Aedile
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:47:18 +0100

Congratulations Gnaeus Equitius Marinus !

And don't forget that we were friends before you became a VIP ;-)

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Oath of Office as Curule Aedile
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:30:58 -0000

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Gnaeo Equitio Marino S.P.D.

My congratulations, my friend and co-candidated!!!
I know you as well as possible because we have worked togheter for
our Illustrus Fabius Quintilianus and we "fight" for common goals.
So, I'm very happy for you and I'm sure we'll do great things as
Aediles!

PEOPLE, VOTE MARINUS AND ME AS CURULES ADILES !!!

Vale
FAC


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two-Growing Pains
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:35:06 +0100

Salvete colleagues!

NR was founded in the US and had been a US based micronation. Only lately
has it branched into the world as I am sure that everyone wanted. But
'branching out' also makes some people get nervous, and they worry that the
balance of power will shift somewhere else. This is quite natural. Changes
often come with a bit of growing pains.

Basically, I feel that a 'split' would work against both Nova Romans in
Europe and the US. And honestly, I have not seen any Europeans ever mention
that they wanted to split. Besides that, there are many Nova Romans in other
countries, who are being totally forgotten in this, who like me, don't want
to be part of one half or the other, but a part of the Greater Nova Roma.

To split our resources is not good. We just have to stay calm, not succomb
to paranoia and nervousness, and stick together. And even if Europeans and
Americans don't always agree 100%, there also will never be 100% agreement
between all Americans separately and all Europeans separately. And to me, a
European Nova Roma without Octavius' charisma, Nerva's sometimes outspoken
emails, & Maximus and Sulla's blunt and sometimes very funny comments in the
Back Alley would be a colorless one.

"Vive le difference"
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:41:18 -0000

Franciscus Apulus Caesar Nerva S.P.D.

I'm observing this proposal like the division after the death of
Teodosius between West and East Empire because the economical, social
and military situation was very bad.
Illustrus, do you remember the roman history?
The West Empire falled under the attacks of the barbarians unable to
find new sources, new political and social goals, etc.
The East building a new strong Empire able to live for another
millenium ...
I want a big strong world Nova Roma!

Vale
FAC

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:51:09 +0100

Salve Julilla Sempronia Magna,

[>] > the gens paterfamilias, Tiberius Sempronius Licinius -- I applied 1
January 2001. His
[>] > acceptance was the last communication I have had with him, and
[>] > shortly after I was allowed in, gens whose pater or materfamilias
[>] > failed to respond to applications were closed. I wrote to my
[>] > paterfamilias subsequently, but he never responded, and the URL to
[>] > the site listed for our gens is now a dead link.

I can sympathize with you 100%. Gens Moravia was also a 'dead' Gens when I
returned to NR in April. It was the same exact problem: a missing and
unresponsive Paterfamilias. No one has heard from the former Paterfamilias
since early 2001 and even then only one or two emails. Luckily, the old
records of when I first joined NR in 1999 were found and the Gens is now
open again.

I think the answer would be to shorten the period that it takes for a
Pater/Materfamilas to be declared inactive. If that is not possible, then
maybe a trusted high ranking citizen could be named 'temporary default'
Paterfamilias' in order to approve new citizens who like you and I have a
'missing' Paterfamilias. I don't know how that could be implemented, but it
is just an idea.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Scholarships
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:57:28 -0500

On Tuesday, November 12, 2002, at 10:49 PM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

> The post of the Praetor Patricia Cassia made me think about something
> I have been contemplating for a while now. I know Nova Roma doesn't
> have the money at the moment, but perhaps we should look into, at a
> later date, offering scholarships to accredited universities worldwide
> for students of Graeco-Roman arts and such.

A fund has already been started to endow such a scholarship, and for
the past couple of years each budget has added a little more money to
it. It is one of my hopes for Nova Roma that this project be allowed to
flourish. In fact, I'll take this opportunity to commend this goal to
all of the candidates for Consul, and to ask that they include it in
their agendas.

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Meeting New York Upstate
From:	CSSWarspite@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:52:11 EST

Salve
Is there anybody who resides in Ny york state /Northen New Jersey who
would like to meet?If so E mail me at CSSWarspite@AOL.COM

Marcus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Public praises to the Senate / Elogios públicos ao Senado
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lucius=20Arminius=20Faustus?= <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:18:09 -0300 (ART)

Salve,

Most gladly, I´m public praising the decision of the Senate about the taxes question. A unanimous decision sure re-entablish our faith on the Republic and hope of Nova Roma growing.

I´m shaking personaly the Senators hands. Many hands, I know... sensate hands!

Muito feliz, estou publicamente elogiando a decisão do Senado sobre a questão de taxas. Uma decisão unânime certamente reestabelece nossa fé na República e esperança de Nova Roma crescer.

Estou pessoalmente apertando as mãos dos senadores. Muitas mãos, eu sei... mãos sensatas!

Vale bene in pacem deorum,

L. Arminius Faustus

Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae, scriba tribuni plebis.

Member of Decuriae Interpretes - (portuguese chair)

Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html

Se de ócio estou, divirto-me escrevendo,

Entre os defeitos meus, este enumero...

Satira Quarta, Horácio

---------------------------------
Yahoo! GeoCities
Tudo para criar o seu site: ferramentas fáceis de usar, espaço de sobra e acessórios.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:23:11 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Nerva.

--- gcassiusnerva <gcassiusnerva@cs.com> escribió:
> Salvete,
>
> An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that
> splitting Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened,
> Europe could go it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate,
> have her own laws.
> No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups in South
> America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
> choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
> and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own
> continent.
>
> The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They could
> remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both Republics. But if
> Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this would
> create a problem. A better solution would be to have a citizen who
> resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias become a new
> Paterfamilias on his own.
>
> I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
> America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
> it would be better to welcome it.
>
> Nerva

Obviously, I am completely against your proposal, Nerva.
No matter how you try to divide Nova Roma, there will be different
individuals, and those individuals will eventually disagree. The only
way to have a unanimous Republic is to have a Republic of *one*
citizen.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:35:15 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

I have written a new essay, based on one of the most
interesting university courses I have ever followed!

----------

AN EXAMPLE OF QUANTITATIVE HISTORIOGRAPHY AND ITS
PROBLEMS: Military expenses of the emperors based on
literature and papyri.

----------

It can be found at my website:
http://www.geocities.com/consulromanus/contributions.html

It would be nice to hear some comments on this! Thank
you in advance for reading it ;-)

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:41:31 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com escribió:

<<snipped>>

> Tribune Salix. Obviously we are on two sides of the fence here. But
> what about the rights of the Paterfamilias? What about the rights of
> those Gens members who don't want to be independent and would be
> against their wish?
> Who speaks for them? Many Paterfamilias have invested time and money
> and even pride in their Gens. Yet you would ignore their voice? I
> would certainly hope not.

A gens reform does not imply *forcing* people to act against their
will.

> Tribune Salix. Who made you the Emperor here? Why is your vision so
> friggin' right and mine so wrong? It was resolved.

Because I want to hear what the People of Nova Roma have to say about
gens reform. You, meanwhile, support *silence* in this matter. You want
us to follow your *instinct*, instead of listening to the Vox Populi.
That, and that alone, makes my vision right and yours wrong.

And no, it was not resolved. It is true that some advances have been
made (against your constant opposition); but this problem is far from
being solved. It won't be solved until *real* gentes and *real*
familiae have a place in Nova Roma.

> If you recall the biggest concern of the Senior Consul and members of
> the Senate was that Gens members were being held against their will
by
> "abusive" Paterfamilias.
> The censors issued an edictum allowing all gens members that felt
> they were under duress the ability to leave.

Historically accurate familiae and gentes have no place in Nova Roma
yet. I will not stop fighting until they do.

> As I said before the historical argument falls flat on its face, when
> you consider the other a-historical things that happen here. Yet you
> would put a people through upheaval that many may not want, and worse
> deprive citizens of their rights, simply because you think you are
> right? That's scary...

Upheaval? I guess that is your instinct again. Deprive citizens of
their rights? What rights am I attacking, if I may know?

> Very good of you to put words into my mouth. My concern is all the
> parties involved here, Tribune. Not just people that agree with you.
> Like I said. If the majority of the people wish this done, it will
> be done.

And how are you ever going to know if the majority of the People wish
it done if you do not allow them to be asked what they wish?

> But it will be done carefully and deliberately, there will be no rush
> to judgment that will cause more problems in the long run.

When will that be? Or let me rephrase my sentence: will the People of
Nova Roma ever be ready, in your opinion, to express their opinion?

> The Iuniore Consul was concerned with the wording of the Cassian
> proposal.
> When no satisfaction was forecoming, he did the only thing he felt he
> could do.
> Veto. And if you condemn him for it, then you do not understand the
> Roman system of checks and balances by how we operate.

I do understand the Roman system of check and balances, senator.
Because I understand it, I know that consular intercessio is not there
to be used against the will of the People, of the Senate and of the
magistrates. Because I understand it, I did *not* veto your patron's
veto.

Your patron had other political choices beyond vetoing the proposal. He
made a mistake vetoing it.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:48:25 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com escribió:

<<snipped>>

> And I believe in a reconstructed Rome as close as physically
> possible, not a modern reconstruction.

You have said that a thousand of times. And then you attack a proposal
that would bring Nova Roma closer to ancient Rome, and support a
*modern reconstruction* like our current gens system.

I don't swallow it anymore, Maximus. You are not the protector of Roman
tradition you claim to be. You are not a Roman traditionalist; you are
using Roman tradition to further your own political agenda.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:58:58 -0000

Salve,

I try to always write on good humour, but that really pXSSXX me off!

" The smaller NR groups in South America and Asia would then be free
to align with whatever side they choose. "

What a disgusting statement! (Yes, that adjective, it is not a false
cognate with portuguese less-strong term ´desgostoso´!)

South America group? The South America group, if there is any, will
align itself to the ones who do not forget the existance of
novaromans on the South Hemisphere.

Or maybe because we have two great ´macronational boundary´ provinces
of Brasil and Argentina (instead of smaller ones as USA and Europe)
the appeals to provincial growing seems to form a group? So, I wanna
form ´that´ group. I want to fill NR with south americans assidui if
I can. So, I´ll try.

ALIGN?
We here are aligned with the Justice and our conscience. Why do we
have to align? There is someone to align? Maybe I am aligned and I
don´t know!

If the Europeans are strong on this elections, it is because they
have done their homework on events and gatherings. Its participation
on NR increased.

THINKING FOR THE FUTURE
Well, in my opinion, the two great problems of NR growing here on
Brasil are resolved:

I - The language - The translations increased the participation of
the ´not-so-good-on-english´ by having contact and undestanding
better (at least!) NR laws and principles... and also the dynamics
(asp/php) section of NR site (like citizen application and cista)

II - The taxes. - The taxes variation approved by the Senate made the
taxes as swift for us on our local money (R$ 12, on the worst
historical exchange rate) as the dollars for a US$ payer. The values
changed, but they are finnaly equalized on real income, ie, real
´pain-in-the-pocket´. And as a clever senator stated: ´Ten paying 1
has the same efect of one paying 10´ (this is not a SIC quote).

Salve, oh goddess Salus Publica!
I´m confident that my worries came away. But be aware when talking
about ´south america group´ or any group. On human relations,
noticing a ´potential division´ is doing a ´real division´. That´s
what my experience tells me.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Interpreter et three times scriba


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Offering a new essay for everyone's enjoyment!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:06:04 +0000 (GMT)


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Oath of Office as Curule Aedile
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:39:10 -0000

Franciscus Apulus Caesar writes:

> My congratulations, my friend and co-candidated!!!

Thank you, mi amici.

> I know you as well as possible because we have worked togheter for
> our Illustrus Fabius Quintilianus and we "fight" for common goals.
> So, I'm very happy for you and I'm sure we'll do great things as
> Aediles!

I look forward to you joining me in the curule chairs, dear Caesar.

> PEOPLE, VOTE MARINUS AND ME AS CURULES ADILES !!!

Why yes! Please do! What surprises shall we give them in the
Ludi, dear Caesar? It will be good.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:40:44 -0800 (PST)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
SNIP
>
> Your patron had other political choices beyond
> vetoing the proposal. He
> made a mistake vetoing it.
>

Salvete Quirites,

This is totaly misleading.

I Prepared a Gens reform plan for the Junior Consul.
It was an empowering lex. It would have legalized
families along with our current Gens, and would have
left it up to the Gens to continue in thier current
model or to persue a more historic model. It would
have allowed each Gens a choice rather than imposing a
model on people who are used to the current system.

Now I find it hard to beleave that the Junior Consul
would have vetoed the proposal that I drafted for him.
Someone would have had to introduced a counter
proposal that the Junior Consul found unacceptable and
vetoed.

Don't attempt to lay all the blame at the Junior
Consul's feet. WHY weren't we allowed to vote on the
proposal that I prepared for the Junior Consul? WHO
introduced the counter proposal? WHY is it the Junior
Consul's fault and not the people who introduced a
counter proposal?

Quirites you could have allready voted on the proposal
I drew up. Since some wish to lay all the blame on the
Junior Consul without telling the full story, I ask
that the plan I drew up and the plan that was vetoed
BOTH be made public.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 7
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:55:59 -0600

Augustus Primaporta

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
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The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 1:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 7

Salvete!

A new and exciting contest, offered by Aedilis Plebis
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix:

PHOTO CONTEST

A very simple contest: 10 photos of Roman-era
monuments to recognize.

10 days long one photo will be posted each day. The
photo will contain a whole monument, or a very large
part of it.

You can participate by sending an email to
consulromanus@yahoo.com (put "PHOTO" in the subject
line), with your Nova Roma name and the correct
answer.

Today's new photo can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/consulromanus/photo.html

NOTE: I admit it's a bit of a tough one this time...
But *double points* will be awarded for those who can
guess who it is (plus an extra point for those who now
*where* it is).

Different kind of answers are possible, as shown in
this example:
A photo of the Pantheon can be described as:
Pantheon
Pantheon, Rome
Temple of Agrippa
Pantheon, Italy
Agrippa's temple (Pantheon)
.
These are all correct answers; just make clear that
you recognize the monument on the photo!

All correct answers will be put together each day, and
my totally innocent two year old neighbour will pick
out a winner at random.

Everyone's results will be presented each day in a
hit-parade.

*********
Today's winner:
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Congratulations!!

All others who have also submitted a correct answer:
Jullila Sempronia Magna
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus
Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Marcus Marcius Rex

The correct answer:
Maison Carrée, a temple in Nîmes, France.

*********

So participate as much as possible to become the best
and greatest "monument-specialist"!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Oath of Office as Curule Aedile
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:36:08 -0000

Diana Moravia Aventina writes:

> Congratulations Gnaeus Equitius Marinus !

Thank you, dear Diana Moravia.

> And don't forget that we were friends before you became a VIP ;-)

How could I possibly forget you? As for the VIP aspect, heck,
you are a materfamilias. That is a far greater honor than a
curule magistracy in the traditional Roman view.

-- Marinus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:53:17 -0000

Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix writes:

> I have written a new essay, based on one of the most
> interesting university courses I have ever followed!

It's an impressive essay. Nicely put together, without excessive
flourishes. I'm reminded of the beautifully clear and tight articles
which appear in the Russian physics journals.

You mention in a footnote that HS stands for sestercius. The S
seems obvious, but what of the H? I know that a sestercius was a
brass coin, and I'm wondering if the H is somehow related to the
metal content.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:51:54 -0800

Avete Omnes,

For the record, I brought the proposal that my Accensus Propraetor Lucius Sicinius Drusus to the Senate. I would not have vetoed it at all. I supported the Sicinian proposal 100%. I was the one to reopen the entire gens reform debate in the Senate by bringing that proposal to the Senate. It was almost immediately side-tracked by the Cassian one. And then the Cassian Labienian one.

I would be very pleased to reintroduce the proposal of Propraetor Lucius Sicinius Drusus and promulgate it this very month.

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul of Nova Roma
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
SNIP
>
> Your patron had other political choices beyond
> vetoing the proposal. He
> made a mistake vetoing it.
>

Salvete Quirites,

This is totaly misleading.

I Prepared a Gens reform plan for the Junior Consul.
It was an empowering lex. It would have legalized
families along with our current Gens, and would have
left it up to the Gens to continue in thier current
model or to persue a more historic model. It would
have allowed each Gens a choice rather than imposing a
model on people who are used to the current system.

Now I find it hard to beleave that the Junior Consul
would have vetoed the proposal that I drafted for him.
Someone would have had to introduced a counter
proposal that the Junior Consul found unacceptable and
vetoed.

Don't attempt to lay all the blame at the Junior
Consul's feet. WHY weren't we allowed to vote on the
proposal that I prepared for the Junior Consul? WHO
introduced the counter proposal? WHY is it the Junior
Consul's fault and not the people who introduced a
counter proposal?

Quirites you could have allready voted on the proposal
I drew up. Since some wish to lay all the blame on the
Junior Consul without telling the full story, I ask
that the plan I drew up and the plan that was vetoed
BOTH be made public.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:14:35 +0000 (GMT)

Salve Marine!

First of all, I am glad you liked the essay!

About the HS: the H was originally II (2), and the S
stands for 'semis' (1/2). This was because the
sestertius was originally worth 2 1/2 asses (i.e.
before the second Punic War). A strange evolution ,
IMO,... They forgot the original meaning of their 'II
S' and started to write it as HS (in many inscriptions
this HS is mentioned).

--- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> wrote: > Tiberius
Apollonius Cicatrix writes:
>
> > I have written a new essay, based on one of the
> most
> > interesting university courses I have ever
> followed!
>
> It's an impressive essay. Nicely put together,
> without excessive
> flourishes. I'm reminded of the beautifully clear
> and tight articles
> which appear in the Russian physics journals.
>
> You mention in a footnote that HS stands for
> sestercius. The S
> seems obvious, but what of the H? I know that a
> sestercius was a
> brass coin, and I'm wondering if the H is somehow
> related to the
> metal content.

Vale bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:16:13 -0600 (CST)

Salve Luci Sicini,

> Someone would have had to introduced a counter
> proposal that the Junior Consul found unacceptable and
> vetoed.

Yes - Cassius wrote a proposal, Labienus suggested a modification to
it that would have allowed for people who preferred the old system to
make that choice for themselves.

> WHY weren't we allowed to vote on the
> proposal that I prepared for the Junior Consul?

No one with the imperium to put it up for a vote cared to do so.
I supported the Cassius/Labienus plan, and certainly wasn't about
to support an incompatible proposal.

But I did not veto it, or in any way act to kill it.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:40:59 -0800

Avete Omnes,

There is a law already on the books regarding paters/maters who are inactive or fail to respond:

It is the Lex Conelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis - http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html

Not only that, but there is a Praetorial edict from Praetor T. Labenius dealing with this issue as well:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2002-08-07.html

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Julilla Sempronia Magna
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform

My name is Julilla Sempronia, and I have borne that nomen and
praenomen since April of 1997. I am writing to illustrate the
position that I and slightly fewer than 200 other cives NovaRomani
face: the closure of our gens to new brethren. Granted, that is a
small percentage of our total population, and sadly, we grow smaller
every day.

I am NOT happy with the status quo of our current gens system, and I
am convinced that this affects too many of my fellow cives to ignore,
as illustrated below.

As of this writing, Nova Roman has 1,601 cives in 413 gens. Of these,
100 Gens are closed to new members, affecting 195 cives within
(approximately 12% of the current population). A few of these closed
gentes have several cives, but most grew to only 1-2 before they were
closed to new admissions.

I was accepted into gens Sempronia and NovaRoma on 19 March of 2001,
and that only after persistently writing the gens paterfamilias,
Tiberius Sempronius Licinius -- I applied 1 January 2001. His
acceptance was the last communication I have had with him, and
shortly after I was allowed in, gens whose pater or materfamilias
failed to respond to applications were closed. I wrote to my
paterfamilias subsequently, but he never responded, and the URL to
the site listed for our gens is now a dead link.

I am a Sempronia. I am proud of my nomen. It is who I am. But I have
no-one else to share in this pride, the history of the name, the
fellowship.

Cives, if I were the only person in these straights, I would remain
silent. But gens Sempronia is NOT alone. Many other ancient and
illustrious names, bearing as rich a heritage as the spiritual
descendents of Tiberius and Caius Sempronius Gracchus are doomed to
die out unless gens reform becomes a reality.

What is to become of gens Antonia, Aurelia, Caecilia, Drusa, Furia,
Livia, Marcella, Portia, Ulpia, Valeria, Vedia, and the rest? Must we
remain forever locked out from the fellowship of family members?

I was deeply disappointed to see senatorial discussion of this
critical issue vetoed earlier this fall. I urge candidates and cives
to join together to find full and fair resolution to the problems
with our gens system.

Gratias plurimas for listening.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Splitting & Spitting
From:	"L. Didius Geminus Sceptius $E-mail$" <sceptia@yahoo.es>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:57:04 +0100

Salve Quirites

As Candidate to the Tribunus Plebis office, I can't be away of the two main
Topics, Gens Reform and Dividing NR.

About Gens Reform I know that are historical views that are used quite
wrongly. Oh yes, historically the Paterfamiliaes could even kill his own
sons and daughters... historically and before the 12 tables relationship
between paters substituted the relationships between individuals. And
privilegia is before the 12 tables rules. Historically there were slaves and
the pater could make to them almost everything... Historically there were
many wrong things in ancient Rome. Do we want to repeat them? Maximus seems
to be on that way...
I strongly recomend to hear those who are trying to work on a fair refor.
That means, Tribunus Gn. Salix Astur, candidate to Pratorship, and Senator
Q. Fabius Quintilianus, candidate to Consulship. Those who spit at
everything built for the people are not working for the people... and is not
the case of these two citizens.

About splitting in two Nova Roma is just a nonsense. Well, the republic and
furthermore the empire had to deal with this many times, even at the
founding of the city and the disaster with the gauls... but why Rome
remained and become so powerful? Because of its great union... Carthage
didn't beat them because of the strong union they had in Italy, barbarians
didn't destroy the empire until it disgregate its own forces... and someone
suggest to split in two NR?

Union and balanced sense, aimed to the people, not to the individual
profits.

Vale bene,

L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
- Candidate to Tribunus Plebis -

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 8
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:25:49 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

A new and exciting contest, offered by Aedilis Plebis
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix:

PHOTO CONTEST

**********
You can participate by sending an email to
consulromanus@yahoo.com (put “PHOTO” in the subject
line), with your Nova Roma name and the correct
answer.
**********

A very simple contest: 10 photos of Roman-era
monuments to recognize.

10 days long one photo will be posted each day. The
photo will contain a whole monument, or a very large
part of it.

Today's new photo can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/consulromanus/photo.html

Different kind of answers are possible, as shown in
this example:
A photo of the Pantheon can be described as:
Pantheon
Pantheon, Rome
Temple of Agrippa
Pantheon, Italy
Agrippa’s temple (Pantheon)
…
These are all correct answers; just make clear that
you recognize the monument on the photo!

All correct answers will be put together each day, and
my totally innocent two year old neighbour will pick
out a winner at random.

Everyone’s results will be presented each day in a
hit-parade.

*********
Today's winner:
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus

Congratulations!!

It was indeed quite difficult this time... Only one
correct answer, from our winner.

The correct answer:
It was a statue of Caius Iulius Caesar, and it stands
in Velzeke, Belgium. Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus was
correct in seeing the small hint in the photo: behind
the statue there is the Flemish flag (the yellow flag
with the black lion)! He receives the double points,
and an extra point because he knew where the statue
stood.

*********

So participate as much as possible to become the best
and greatest “monument-specialist”!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:53:53 -0800 (PST)

ALIGN?

Why stop at dividing between Europe and N America. Why don't we just have each Propraetor choose who to align their provincia with. Then we can have many little Roman states! Just think of the fun....

Lacus Magni could get really annoyed at America Mediatlantica and declare war! We could invade and take over(notice the bias here)....it would be SOOOO Roman!

Sure would be tension then because America Mediatlantica would probably not enjoy that whole conquered thing, but once we sack and pillage them they will not really be in a postion to complain.

To be fair, Lacus Magni would only pillage to fund our upcoming war with America Medioccidentalis Superior.

Later, when the Propraetor of the aforementioned conquered territories raise rebellious armies, I would try to form some alliance. Probably a Triumvirate. Those seem to work reasonably well for a short time.....

We really would be pretty Roman.

My point, we seem to enjoy playing out the differences between us all. We should just be happy we are trying to make Nova Roma a pretty neat place that people want to join and help grow...together, not apart.

Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

---------------------------------
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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:29:27 -0700

Salve,

Well done and nicely written.

Vale,
Aeternia

-----Original Message-----
From: Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
[mailto:consulromanus@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:35 AM
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com;
Sodalitas_Militarium@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] An essay for everyone to enjoy!

Salvete!

I have written a new essay, based on one of the most
interesting university courses I have ever followed!

----------

AN EXAMPLE OF QUANTITATIVE HISTORIOGRAPHY AND ITS
PROBLEMS: Military expenses of the emperors based on
literature and papyri.

----------

It can be found at my website:
http://www.geocities.com/consulromanus/contributions.html

It would be nice to hear some comments on this! Thank
you in advance for reading it ;-)

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul!
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor!
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor!
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 10
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:46:03 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?

******************

Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don’t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting “QUIZ”
in the subject line.

******************

Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones…

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, …

The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 9:
1. Who wrote the works “Georgica” and “Bucolica” (full
Roman name)? (Publius Vergilius Maro)

2. How much is XXXIV? (34)

3. When was Hadrian's wall started? (AD 122)

4. Where did Hannibal come from (place of birth)?
(Carthage)

5. What two cities were destroyed in 146 BC? (Carthage
– Corinth)

-----
Points so far:
Julilla Sempronia Magna – 50
Sextus Apollonius Scipio – 49
Titus Labienus Fortunatus – 47
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus – 44
Quintus Lanius Paulinus – 34
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus – 29
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus – 28
Spurius Postumius Tubertus – 27
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus – 25
Marcus Octavius Germanicus – 19
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix – 18
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus – 13
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia – 13
Marcus Arminius Maior – 10
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola – 10
Lithia Cassia – 9
Vivius Ambrosius Caesariensis – 8
Aulus Octavius Serenus – 4

-----

Here are today's questions:

***************

1. Name the legendary seven hills of Rome.

2. Where was the Roman province of Dacia?
- Modern day France
- Modern day Germany
- Modern day Romania
- Modern day Greece

3. Which Emperor was killed in battle fighting the
Visigoths?
- Valens
- Gordianus II
- Maximinus Thrax
- Didius Julianus

4. Who is said to have written the following well
known phrases (one man wrote them all): “Mans sana in
corpore sano”, “Panem et circenses”, “Pecunia non
olet”, “Rara avis”, “Difficile est satiram non
scribere”, …

5. How much does MCCCIX mean?

***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Against Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:10:06 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

As I see it Nova Roma is and shall be one! I for one will will fight
any attempt to divide our Res Publica. I have never even thought of
the possibility of a split. Where does this talk about a split come
from? From Back Alley list? A list which isn't Roman, even if Romans
are active there. Why should we have to listen to people who are
nagging there, possibily because they lost an election or two?

Many of my best friends in Nova Roma are American and I continue to
gain more friends on the other side of the Atlantic.. In this
election there are 17 postions (except the plebeian ones). Because of
our voting system I can't vote for all positions, but I will support
Americans for more than half of these positions. I see a bright
future for Nova Roma if we continue to work together towards common
goals.
-----------------------------

I will be of the list for more than 24 hours, more or less, as I at
the moment is working with some kids with big problems and I must
take care of them first. I ask You all to forgive me for not
commenting on every issue at the moment.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:30:53 -0800

Ave, Colleague,

With your consent I would love to promulgate the Sicinian Plan for the Gens Reform in the Senate in December. Will you go along with that? I will be pleased to promulgate that law in my final summons of the Senate in December (or you can do it in November since we will have to be doing another summons for some other issues) And then I can bring it before the People in December.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters

Salve Luci Sicini,

> Someone would have had to introduced a counter
> proposal that the Junior Consul found unacceptable and
> vetoed.

Yes - Cassius wrote a proposal, Labienus suggested a modification to
it that would have allowed for people who preferred the old system to
make that choice for themselves.

> WHY weren't we allowed to vote on the
> proposal that I prepared for the Junior Consul?

No one with the imperium to put it up for a vote cared to do so.
I supported the Cassius/Labienus plan, and certainly wasn't about
to support an incompatible proposal.

But I did not veto it, or in any way act to kill it.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:44:53 -0600 (CST)

Salve Colleague,

> With your consent I would love to promulgate the Sicinian Plan
> for the Gens Reform in the Senate in December. Will you go along
> with that?

If we can also vote on the Cassius/Labienus plan, then yes.

We can put both to the Senate in late November, and see which
one gets more support.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:05:56 -0800 (PST)

Salve Pater,

> AN EXAMPLE OF QUANTITATIVE HISTORIOGRAPHY AND ITS
> PROBLEMS: Military expenses of the emperors based on
> literature and papyri.

well written and very interesting!! To be put in parallel with the Roman never ending
inflation...

Vale,

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Candidate for Quaestor

My program at: http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:34:56 -0600 (CST)

Salve Colleague,

> For the record, I brought the proposal that my Accensus Propraetor
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus to the Senate.

Right, you showed it to us; but did not call for a vote on it.

> I would not have vetoed it at all. I supported the Sicinian proposal
> 100%. I was the one to reopen the entire gens reform debate in the
> Senate by bringing that proposal to the Senate. It was almost immediately
> side-tracked by the Cassian one. And then the Cassian Labienian one.

Lucius Sicinius' proposal was itself introduced as an alternative to my
original idea, the proposed "Lex Octavia Salicia". This wasn't a case of
us hijacking your reform.

> I would be very pleased to reintroduce the proposal of Propraetor
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus and promulgate it this very month.

You can do that, if we can simultaneously vote on the Cassius-Labienus
proposal.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gens Reform
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:27:27 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

>From the on going debate I see that there are at least
three plans for Gens Reform. I Have no idea what's in
two of them.

I Know that the plan I drafted is minimal. It does no
more than amend the Constitution to make it possible
for a Gens to consist of multiple families.

Perhaps the other two plans go beyond that simplicity.
I have no way of knowing. If that is the problem then
I offer a compramise.

We have two plans. A Minimal plan like the one I
drafted and a more sweeping plan that builds apon the
minimal plan.

We have two votes. The first one on the Minimal plan
to determine if the people even desire Gens Reform. If
the Minimal plan passes then it would be followed by a
vote on the second plan that introduces more sweeping
changes.

This would allow the people to not only decide if they
wish to have Gens reform, but also to decide how far
the reforms will go.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:17:13 -0700

Salve,

Nerva this time, I'd have to respectfully disagree. Splitting Nova Roma
into two, would cut off circulation of cultures not only politically but
also
Socially. Another reason also, I could vision the Two Groups in total
constant competition, over achieving isn't too bad of a habit. (That is
just my opinion only) But when you have a superflous amount of it, in all
sorts of direction. Nothing positive can from it, at least in my opinion
only. Nerva,
Please reconsider this post, or at least look at it with different eyes.

Bene Vale,
R. Cornelia Aeternia

-----Original Message-----
From: gcassiusnerva [mailto:gcassiusnerva@cs.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:40 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two

Salvete,

An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that
splitting
Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened,
Europe could go
it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her
own laws.
No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups
in South
America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever
side they
choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find
it easier
and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their
own continent.

The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They
could
remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both
Republics. But if
Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this
would
create a problem. A better solution would be to have a
citizen who
resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias
become a new
Paterfamilias on his own.

I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe
and
America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of
fighting it,
it would be better to welcome it.

Nerva


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:45:00 -0000

Salvete L. Sicini Druse et omnes,

I have talked to quite a few Nova Romans off the ML about gens
reform. I posted several listings in the past so I need not repeat
myself. I just want to say that their "bottom line" regarding non
responding pater et mater famili is that they would like to see the
actions on this matter be sped up to a matter of weeks rather than
months. This would certainly boost the morale of citizens in waiting
as well as family members who can never get in touch with their
family heads.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

> We have two votes. The first one on the Minimal plan
> to determine if the people even desire Gens Reform. If
> the Minimal plan passes then it would be followed by a
> vote on the second plan that introduces more sweeping
> changes.
>
> This would allow the people to not only decide if they
> wish to have Gens reform, but also to decide how far
> the reforms will go.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> "Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
> (A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
> Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
> http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:54:12 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

We are all striving to recreate the Roman Empire, its virtues and
more positive values. The main idea is to put our energies toward
this and put Macronational sentiments and ideas on the back burner.
Individual Nova Romans cannot do much against the actions of their
governments. We cannot send legions or our consuls and senators to
stop them. (for now). The fact that our European brothers may not
like macronational policies of North America and vice - versa has
nothing to do in my opinion with NR. Such differences only take away
our time and energy from concentrating on building Nova Roma. I have
sometimes have been guilty of getting off topic like the other day
when I wanted to talk a little on the American Revolution tax revolt
but Senator Sulla and Drusus wisely and tactfully reminded me that it
was a discussion that would be off topic and better discussed
privately. Hopefully each NR (starting with me) can police himself
and try to keep the focus on Rome so as not to trigger an irrelavent
thread that goes on for a week or more.

Even though I am North American I would ideally like the capitol of
NR to someday be in Rome the enternal city. This would give the
Empire more interest and credibility throughout the world. I know we
must go through finding land where we can etc. but I am thinking in
terms many years down the road long after I am gone. Anyway, lets
bury our political Marconational differences and continue to work to
make NR a great reality. In a way I am happy that Nerva gave us a
good jolt bringing up this topic because it encourages many of us to
reflect about what we have done, are doing, and what division will do
to us in the future if our attitudes do not smarten up.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Yours respect


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gens Reform -- Gens Sempronia
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:18:18 -0500 (EST)

Materfamilias Julia Sempronia Magna;

I was very pleased to read your posting. I am Senator M.M. Audens, and
I appreciated your letter particularly because for the first time I am
beginning to understand a little bit more regarding Gens Reform and what
it means.

You see, altough I have been in NR for awhile and I do read and listen
to what is said, I very often do not understand everything that my
colleagues have to say about a given topic. They sometimes speak about
certain aspects of concerns which are a tad over my head. It is not, of
course, thier fault, but rather, I am in some areas a tad slow.

Your message was very interesting in that it provided a set of hard
information, the first of which that I can remember recieving in your
special format, and until now, I have been sort of "sitting on the
fence" since most of my Gens-Mates are pretty much individuals, and are
actively pursuing other aspects of Nova Roma. I do not have a large
Gens, but I am very pleased to see that many of my Gens-Mates are quite
active, vocal, and make a lot of sense in what they have to say. So, I
suppose that I have not been face-to-face with the situation as you have
described it.

I must apologize in that, I have made some commitments for this period
of time in areas outside of Nova Roma, and I must devote some time to
those commitments as well. However, I should like to discuss this
further with you, get your ideas, and share some of my views as well.
My apology is because I may not be able to respond immediately to your
postings.

So, if you would like to expand on the ideas that you have posted, and
correspond with me about them, I should be pleased and honored to hear
what you have to say. I can make this promise to you, that your
concerns will get my fullest attention, and a fair hearing, and that
when this topic is again brouht before the Senate, I shall (hopefully
with your help) be active in the discussion , and I will make every
effort to cast my vote (Good Lord Willin" and the Creeks Don't Rise---
Western Slang).

In closing, I thank you once again for your posting, and for your
comments. In a wider view, any other Citizens of NR that would wish to
post thier ideas regarding the question of Gens Reform, I should be more
than pleased to hear from you. I will make a folder of these messages
and comments, for my study, in preparation for the coming debate in the
Senate regarding this concen.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Paterfamilius -- Gens Minucia

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] *VENATIONES* 5th day!!!!!
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:37:40 -0800 (PST)

WE ARE IN THE CIRCUS FLAMINIUS AGAIN WITH THE MUSARUM
NETWORK FOR THE VENATIONES OF NOVA
ROMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, we must apologize because of the delay
in posting the results of the combats... unfortunately
Manius Constantinus Serapio, at the end of the Nova
Roma meeting in Rome (a great meeting!!!), had several
problems in coming back home.... (missing the train,
not sleeping to avoid stealing, etc...).
Anyway, at the end he managed to reach the Circus
Flaminius and to follow the combats. Here they
are!!!!!!!

By the way... I received some more information about
Latina's pilgrimage:

===============================
>>>LATINA'S ODYSSEY<<<

Latina reached the port of Corinthe.
She is actually walking toward Delphi to pose that
well-known question to the oracle.
She met a huge lion which wanted to eat her. However,
Latina showed the lion the sea monster she caught last
week in the Ionian Sea.
As a consequence they decided to eat together some
good rice salade and drank several glasses of Greek
wine.
I have also been asked to tell you that they are well,
that the weather in Geece is good and that they will
send us a postcard.
That's all. I will communicate you any further news.
===============================

Citizens of Nova Roma! This is an important day!!!
Today our richest citizen will have his venator
fighting against wild animals........

Ladies and Gentlemen:

...his fighter already won during past venationes.

...a buffalo died because of his venator's fury.

...the only winner of the Ludus Tauriscum.

...and...

48,000 SESTERTII IN HIS POCKET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...LUCIUS ARMINIUS FAUSTUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE CROWD HAILS HIM!
He tanks everybody.

Hey! Here he is........... THE VENATOR!!!!!!!!!

AQUINCA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A wonderful fighter of past edition! He comes from
Pannonia and now trains in our best gymnasium: the
Ludus Matutinus.

Oh, Iuppiter! His task won't be easy at all!!!
He will have to face THREE BUFFALOS!!! Perhaps they
want to avenge their like which was killed by Aquinca
during past venationes?
Hmm....

Well! The combat begins!

Aquinca is in the middle of the Circus. The three
buffalos are all around him.

THEY RUN TOWARD HIM!!!

AQUINCA CROUCHES DOWN! THE THREE BUFFALOS HIT
HIM!!!!!!

Poor Aquinca!!!!!!!!

.....

.............

.....................

HEY! AQUINCA STANDS!!! AND TWO BUFFALOS LIE ON THE
GROUND!!!
They move, thay are still alive!

Aquinca has now 33 resistance points. The three
buffalos have 9, 5 and 10.

But the third buffalo is ready to attack again! AND IT
DO IT!!!

IT RUNS AGAINST AQUINCA! Aquinca seizes it by the
neck!

The buffalo kicks! It is really furious!!!

HEY! THE OTHER BUFFALOS ARE GETTING UP!!!

Aquinca just saw them...

OUCH!!! HE TIGHTENED HIS GRIP ON THE NECK AND BROKE
IT!!!
The body falls full length to the ground...
what a bad end!

The other two buffalos attack Aquinca. He is ready to
face them.

HE DODGES IT AND SOCKS IT ONE ON THE SKULL!!!!!!!!
THE BUFFALO FALLS DOWN!
IT'S DEAD!!!!!!!!!

AQUINCA SEIZES THE OTHER BUFFALO BY THE HORNS!

WHAT A STRENGTH!!!!!! THE BUFFALO PUSHES OUR VENATOR
AGAINST THE WALL OF THE CIRCUS!
AQUINCA IS TRAPPED!!!!!

THE BUFFALO PUSHES AND ITS HORNS ARE NEARLY HITTING
AQUINCA'S STOMACH!!!!!!

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!! ONE OF THE HORNS HIT AQUINCA AND IS
NOW SLOWLY PIERCING HIS FLESH!!!

AQUINCA TRIES TO RESIST, HE DOESN'T SCREAM. BUT THE
BUFFALOS SEEMS TO BE IS STRONGER.
AND THE HORN PUSHES!!!

AQUINCA PUTS HIS LEFT HANDS BETWEEN THE TWO HORNS.

WITH THE OTHER ONE HE SEIZES THE BUFFALO'S THROAT!!!

A STIFLED CRY!

THE BUFFALO SUCCUMBS!

THE CROWD GET CRAZY!!! THEY NEVER SAW ANYTHING LIKE
THAT!!!!!!

Aquinca still has 28 resistance points!!!

He is the winner!!!!
AQUINCA DEFEATED THREE FOES!!!!!!!! HE WAS ALONE!
OH, HERCULES! I REALLY DIDN'T THINK IT COULD BE
POSSIBLE!!!!!

CONGRATULATIONS TO AQUINCA AND TO LUCIUS ARMINIUS
FAUSTUS!!!! Another great success!!!! :)

See you soon for other combats!!!!!!!!!!

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform -- Gens Sempronia
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:36:02 -0800

Ave,

And no budget was needed for the Gens Registration. Respectfully you are confusing it with the Census. And in the matter of the Census there was nothing to prevent the Censors for coming to the Senate and requesting reimbursement on any expenses they paid. There was even a procedure authorized by the Senate to present such expense.

Censor Equitius disputed Preator Pomepia Cornelia's edict. Not Praetor T. Labineus's. Hence Diana Moravia is now Materfamilias of the Gens Moravia. :)

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Julilla Sempronia Magna
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:12 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform -- Gens Sempronia

Julilla Sempronia Magna (no materfamilias, I fear) Marcum Minucium
Audem et omnibus SPD

Nothing would please me more than to participate in a dialogue (on
list, offlist or chat) on the subject of gens reform with anyone
interested in the subject. I am most gratified for your thoughtful
words on what has been a personally frustrating issue for me. As a
matter of fact, it was not until I sat down and reflected with the
gentes list in front of me that I realised that I was not alone in my
predicament and stepped forward.

Junior Consul Lucis Cornelus Sulla Felix recently mentioned two leges
which were passed earlier this year. The first, Lex Cornelia de
Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html) was
passed on 27 February of this year, and I was quite hopeful, as I
added it to the list of leges in the Tabularium, that by 30 June the
matter of inactive patres and matresfamiliae would be resolved.

Unfortunately, the censors, on whom the burden of reporting gens
census responses fell, were not given a budget for their work, to my
knowledge (there is no published budget for this year), and no census
was published.

The second of the two leges mentioned, the Edictum Praetoricum --
Praetores May Act on Behalf of Absent Patresfamiliae
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2002-08-07.html),
proposed by Titus Labienus Fortunatus and passed on 7 July of this
year, allows cives to petition the praetors if they are unable to
contact their pater or materfamilias (petition them to do what is
unclear to me).

This edicta was challenged by Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus on 5
September. He rightly pointed out that the edicta was at odds with
our constutution, section II paragraph 3,
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution.html) and said, "The
edict was an attempted stop-gap measure to correct a problem that
needs to be addressed by a Constitutional amendment."

I know that Cincinnatus was not happy to have to do this, and he has
been wonderfully supportive and helpful from the day I joined Nova
Roma (and, I should say, the two-or-so months before then). He is a
man of the highest integrity and will act to uphold existing leges
until better leges are crafted.

It seems quite clear to me, affected as I am by the problem, that
substantive change is necessary to resolve the limbo in which I and
200 of my fellow cives find ourselves cast into, and to build and
maintain strong, viable gentes.

Gratias,

---

@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea Part II-Response to Caius Minucius Scaevola
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:42:30 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Caius Minucius Scaevola. Salvete.

I believe that my missive may not have been clear about my noble "ancestor" who served as Consul in Old Rome. The engineering work of the Old Romans was the cornerstone of the great physical infrastructure of the Roman State. My "ancestor" helped keep the City great by his efforts and, as such, I am humbled because I have so much to attempt to live up to. The name of Galeria is one of the thirty-five voting tribes of Old Rome and had many inscriptions spread throughout the ancient world and were mentioned by a number of ancient authors. I hold it a tremendous honor to be of the Galeriae. Valete.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform -- Gens Sempronia
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:12:13 -0000

Julilla Sempronia Magna (no materfamilias, I fear) Marcum Minucium
Audem et omnibus SPD

Nothing would please me more than to participate in a dialogue (on
list, offlist or chat) on the subject of gens reform with anyone
interested in the subject. I am most gratified for your thoughtful
words on what has been a personally frustrating issue for me. As a
matter of fact, it was not until I sat down and reflected with the
gentes list in front of me that I realised that I was not alone in my
predicament and stepped forward.

Junior Consul Lucis Cornelus Sulla Felix recently mentioned two leges
which were passed earlier this year. The first, Lex Cornelia de
Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html) was
passed on 27 February of this year, and I was quite hopeful, as I
added it to the list of leges in the Tabularium, that by 30 June the
matter of inactive patres and matresfamiliae would be resolved.

Unfortunately, the censors, on whom the burden of reporting gens
census responses fell, were not given a budget for their work, to my
knowledge (there is no published budget for this year), and no census
was published.

The second of the two leges mentioned, the Edictum Praetoricum --
Praetores May Act on Behalf of Absent Patresfamiliae
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2002-08-07.html),
proposed by Titus Labienus Fortunatus and passed on 7 July of this
year, allows cives to petition the praetors if they are unable to
contact their pater or materfamilias (petition them to do what is
unclear to me).

This edicta was challenged by Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus on 5
September. He rightly pointed out that the edicta was at odds with
our constutution, section II paragraph 3,
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution.html) and said, "The
edict was an attempted stop-gap measure to correct a problem that
needs to be addressed by a Constitutional amendment."

I know that Cincinnatus was not happy to have to do this, and he has
been wonderfully supportive and helpful from the day I joined Nova
Roma (and, I should say, the two-or-so months before then). He is a
man of the highest integrity and will act to uphold existing leges
until better leges are crafted.

It seems quite clear to me, affected as I am by the problem, that
substantive change is necessary to resolve the limbo in which I and
200 of my fellow cives find ourselves cast into, and to build and
maintain strong, viable gentes.

Gratias,

---

@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:49:52 -0500 (EST)

Propraetor Nerva;

Well, I'll say this for you, you certainly have a unique way of
generating extensive comment!!!

I do NOT agree with your solution to the 'tensions" that you see around
you. I guess it's just me, but I have been looking for these tensions
snce you have mentioed them, and I can't seem to find them.

I have poked around the Academia which enjoys a number of Europeans on
staff, but I see no "tensions" such as you describe there. I served on
staff for one of the Aedile contests and reported to a European. Not a
problem there either. Several staff members in the Sodalitas Militarium
and the Sodalitas Egressus are Europeans, and I am extremely proud of
thier efforts, and thier obvious friendship. No luck in digging up any
"tensions" there! Darn!!!!! I then turned to the Senate, where there
are a number of European Senators, and I was greeted there with some
very nice responses, but no "tensions." Hmmmmmmmm!!! I am not doing
well at all. This morning's mail on the Main List has brought almost a
total rejection of your idea, and most of these rejections are from
Europeans. Since I am honored to be a Senator, very often people who
have concerns have in the past contacted me. No "tension" contact there
either.

Well, I guss I am stumpted, Where can I go to find this tension of which
you speak? Where is the festering sore of European dissatisfaction that
you have assured the Main List that is extent in NR?

I know!!!! I have forgotten to look into a place where much of that
sort of thing is debated and "handed out" ------ The Back Alley List, of
course!!! How silly of me, not to recognize a product from a list which
has establised no civil limitations. I cannot go there because I do not
belong. As the Junior Consul has so thoughtfully reminded all, I did
belong at one time but the language, humor, and opinions registered on
that list, were a little too ripe for me.

However, I certainly recognize your right to propose new ideas from that
source, as you desire, but I just as strongly oppose the details of this
particular proposal, as I have done in the past. What you propose is
similar to the beginnings of the Great American Civil War, which came
about from insular attitudes and the unwillngness of one side to see the
needs of the other side. To that extent, this can certainly happen in
NR, if we let it, or if we force it by showing everyone a 'tension"
which does not exist. Recently the Senate has passed a change to the
tax laws which brings the taxes more in line with the ability of all to
contribute to NR as they are able. This was brought to the attention of
the Senate by a European, and the Senate has followed through on his
concerns. We are presently wrestling with a Gens issue which will touch
all of us, and which is as germaine to Europeans as it is to North
Americans. Those Europeans are just as vocal, just as intelligent, and
just as clever, and have just as good a set of ideas as we in the
Western Hemisphere. We will listen to thier ideas as well,and together
we shall do what needs to be done.

Regarding "tensions", I cannot imagine that the South American,
Australian, North African, and Canadian Citizens of NR appreciate being
"tossed off" in such an offhand manner, and "allowed' to choose to which
side they shall adhere. Were I among those, I believe I would most
certainly express a little "tension" of my own. These Citizens everyone
are individuals and they should be treted as such, not divided into
political boundaris and labeled with a tired and erroneus set of
attributes concieved by "Ugly Foreigners!"

No, Nerva, the division of NR is not something to contemplate, even for
the invisible 'tensions" that you would have the citizens of NR be
concerned with. Certainly, in 1,600+ citizens there will be some
differing opinions, and there will arise problems, many of which will be
generated by loose and offensive discussions. My Gosh!!!! How to deal
with these insurmountable problems that we supposedly face? Perhaps we
might try something totally new in our arsenal of social weapons. I
list below some very unique ideas for dealing with "your tensions:"

--Listen carefully to your opponent, and try to view his ideas from his
viewpoint. Pick out the good ideas, and address thier possibilities as
though they are your own;

--Always meet your opponent not halfway, but more than half way, not 50%
-- 50%, but rather 60% -- 40%;

--Realize that any posting that you make, that in your estimation might
cause someone some hurt, then it most surely will;

--Remember that another's needs are as important to them as yours are to
you;

--Remember that the U.S. is one of many countries, and the Lady Liberty
in New York Harbor which signals to all peoples everywhere our American
principles was presented to us by a European Country. Let's try to live
up to the ideals carved in stone on the base of her pedestal;

--Read the Roman Virtues, and as a Nova Roman try to live up to them to
the best of your ability;

--Contact a Nova Roma Citizen, not of the U.S., strike up a friendship,
tell him or her how much you appreciate thier being in NR, and perhaps
even (gasp) compliment them.

In my small and humble opinion, should the above ideas be tried, the
effort being sincere, I would suppose that most of those "tensions" that
are all around you, but which I can't seem to find, might miraculously
fade away!

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LVDI PLEBEI *** BUILD NOVA ROMA!!!!!!!!!
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:05:34 -0000

AVETE OMNES!!!!!!!!!!

One more game for the Ludi Plebei!!!!!!!!!!
It is really easy! ;)

Every citizen can send us a "brick" per day to build a symbolical
temple façade.

The "brick" is a word (e.g. a virtue), a date (e.g. the date of a
battle) or a name (e.g. a Roman general or the place of a battle)
wich you deem important to Nova Roma and Her culture.

The "bricks" can be sent to consulromanus@yahoo.com during the Ludi
Plebei until the temple façade is completed. Remember to put "BRICK"
in the subject line!

The temple façade will be built at
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/aediliscicatrix/build.html

Every citizen can only send one "brick" per day.

This building, as you can understand, is very important to Nova Roma.
It has a high symbolical meaning. That is why we strongly suggest you
to send your brick at "Build Nova Roma"!

OPTIME VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
-------------------------------
VISIT MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:09:31 +0000

>From: Gaius Noviodunus <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!
>Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:58:41 +0100
>
>Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix wrote:
>
> > About the HS: the H was originally II (2), and the S
> > stands for 'semis' (1/2). This was because the
> > sestertius was originally worth 2 1/2 asses (i.e.
> > before the second Punic War). A strange evolution ,
> > IMO,... They forgot the original meaning of their 'II
> > S' and started to write it as HS (in many inscriptions
> > this HS is mentioned).
>
>Salve Tiberi,
>
>Thanks for this great contribution and the explanation about HS. I
>probably knew it once, but forgotten in the mean time ;-) So much about
>"forgetting". By the way, I guess I've forgotten too what the S stands
>for in $. I know £ is an L and stands for Libra, latin name of pound.
>But what about the dolar? Anyone knows? I know this is not specifically
>Roman, but it's always nice to make comparisons between Roman times and
>today's times.
>
>Vale bene,
>G. Noviodunus Ferriculus
>

Actually, the "$" sign came from the SH. The H superimposed over the S.

Galerius Peregrinator.

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform -- Gens Sempronia
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:17:38 -0800

Ave Julilla Sempronia

Its quite alright. :) We all get confused at times. I would have written to you privately but I assumed that if your confused I am certain there are others who might be as well.

And in case your wondering about the Senatus Consultum regarding reimbursment for expenses it is right here:

http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2000-12-31-iv.html

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Julilla Sempronia Magna
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:09 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform -- Gens Sempronia

Julilla Sempronia Magna Lucium Cornelium Sullam SPD

I freely admit there is much in life that confuses me, particularly
in the matter of gens registration.

You are right, the praetoria edicta I referred to was proposed by
Praetor Titus Labienus Fortunatus here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/1554, and he did
indeed call on it to allow Diana Moravia, already a civis NovaRomanae
into gens Moravia:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/1680

And the message by then Praetor Pompeia Cornellia Strabo, here

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/2133, refering to a
new citizen application, for gens Fabricia did indeed call on an
edicta she proposed on 2 September, which was indeed overturned.

I freely admit, I remain in a state of confusion as to what is the
true state of affairs in the area of gens registration, dormant
gentes, AWOL patresfamilias, etcetera. I have lived in this state for
some time, so am getting used to it.... but giving driving directions
is terrible, believe me!

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] *VENATIONES* 7th day!!!!!
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:42:56 -0800 (PST)

AVETE OMNES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TODAY WE HAVE ANOTHER GREAT PARTICIPANTS!!!!!
OUR CONSUL MARCUS OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS BOUGHT A
FIGHTER, WHICH WILL FIGHT TODAY IN THE CIRCUS
FLAMINIUS!!!!!!!

He is DEMETRIUS!!!!!!!!!
By the way..... I would just let you know that
Germanicus still has 3,000 sestertii... hmm... not a
lot, but we shall also consider that he is a new entry
in the Venationes of Nova Roma! :)

DEMETRIUS ENTERS THE CIRCUS!
He comes from Iudaea (southern part of Israel) and has
a strength of 31 and a resistance of 29. He actually
trains in Ludus Leontinum. A nice gymnasium!

BUT HIS FOES ARE REALLY STRONG!!!!!!!!

What? foeS???? YEAH!!!!!!!! They are two!!!!!!!!!!!
TWO HUGE BRUINS CAUGHT LAST SUMMER IN GALLIA!!!!!!
The first one has a strength of 30 and a resistance of
32, while the second one has 34 and 33!

THE CROWD HAILS THE CONSUL AND DEMETRIUS!!!

Demetrius thanks the people.

This fighter wears a bear fur... and our two bruins
don't seem to appreciate it...
I can't understand them. Fashion is fashion!

No. The bruins get hungry. They both attack
Demetrius!!!
Demetrius dodges them! THEY ARE FURIOUS!!!!!!!!

ooooops.... I forgot to feed them yesterday..... sorry
Demetrius... it could be my fault. Anyway... :D

Hey! They are having a good fight!

Demetrius has now 19 resistance poits. The first bruin
24. The second one 30.

So, well. Yesterday my dear little bears had to eat
two pigs each.... six rabbits...

(Demetrius 11. First bruin 17. Second bruin 23)

Unfortunately I was very tired... I also forgot to
sing them to sleep... hmm... yes, this fact could
probably have an influence on their mood...

(Demetrius 7. First bruin 7. Second bruin 13)

In addition... HEY!!!!!!!! OH! SORRY FOLKS!! I WAS
WONDERING ABOUT MY FAULTS!!!!!!!
Ouch..... those three beings in the middle of the
circus look a mess!

DEMETRIUS BITE ONES OF THE BRUINS!
THE OTHER BEAR BITES DEMETRIUS!!!

That's not nice at all...

Demetrius lifts the bruin he was biting... AND HURLS
IT AGAINST THE OTHER ONE!!!!!!

The bruin is dead!!!!!!!!!!
But the other one is still alive.

Demetrius has now only 3 resistance points!!!!!!! AND
ALSO THE BRUIN HAS ONLY THREE POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEY SEIZE EACH OTHER!!!!
THEY TRY TO PUSH TE FOE!!!

OUCH!!!!!!!!!! IT SEEMS A MOVIE!!!!!!! DEMETRIUS
HEATBUTTED THE BRUIN!!!!!!!!!!!

THE BRUIN FALL DOWN!!!!!!!!! IT'S DEAD!!!!!!!!!!

OH, NO!!!!! DEMETRIUS FALLS DOWN TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a sad day.... we have no winner in this
combat.....

I am sorry for our Consul.... these things will
happen...

Several men enter the circus to remove the three
bodies.

Hey...

What's that?

One of those men is trying to say something....

DEMETRIUS IS ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DEMETRIUS STILL HAVE ONE RESISTANCE POINT!!!!!!!
THE LAST POINT!!!!!!!!!!!
HE ISEXHAUSTED, BUT HE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!

DEMETRIUS VICTOR!!!!!!!!!

THE CROWD GO CRAZY!!!!!!

He will surely need a long convalescence now!!!

THAT'S ALL FOR TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SEE YOU SOON WITH NEW COMBATS!!!!!!

__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform -- Gens Sempronia
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:09:12 -0000

Julilla Sempronia Magna Lucium Cornelium Sullam SPD

I freely admit there is much in life that confuses me, particularly
in the matter of gens registration.

You are right, the praetoria edicta I referred to was proposed by
Praetor Titus Labienus Fortunatus here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/1554, and he did
indeed call on it to allow Diana Moravia, already a civis NovaRomanae
into gens Moravia:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/1680

And the message by then Praetor Pompeia Cornellia Strabo, here

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/2133, refering to a
new citizen application, for gens Fabricia did indeed call on an
edicta she proposed on 2 September, which was indeed overturned.

I freely admit, I remain in a state of confusion as to what is the
true state of affairs in the area of gens registration, dormant
gentes, AWOL patresfamilias, etcetera. I have lived in this state for
some time, so am getting used to it.... but giving driving directions
is terrible, believe me!

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] *VENATIONES* 6th day!!!!!
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:40:45 -0800 (PST)

A WARM WELCOME TO YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!
AGAIN FROM THE CIRCUS FLAMINIUS FOR THE VENATIONES!!!

Today we have a new entry of our combats...

PRIMA RUTILIA NOCTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Her venator, Prodromus, is a top-quality fighter! He
has 30 strength points and 30 resistance points.
This man comes from the well-known town of
Herculaneum!!!!!!! And the name of his city tells us
the kind of fighter he is! ;)

Rutilia has been wise: she kept 2,500 Sestertii, but
also sent her fighter to the Ludus Matutinus. A
wonderful gymnasium, believe me! ;)

Hey! But also our little animal is a top-quality
enemy!
A huge rhinoceros made its entry into the Circus!!!
It has a strength of...46!!!!!!!!
And a resistance of.......48!!!!!!!!!

Oh poor Prodromus! It seems to be an impossible task.
Our rhino is really stronger than the venator...
hmm.....

The fighting starts!

The rhino attacks Prodromus.

Prodromus crouches down! (he probably saw Aquinca's
combat...)

OUCH! NOT A WISE DECISION AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!
Prodromus isn't as strong as Aquinca...

Prodromus lies now on the ground....
he has a resistance of 22, while the rhino still has
48 points!!!!

THE RHINO ATTACKS AGAIN! IT START PUSHING PRODROMUS
THROUGH THE ARENA!!!!!!!!!

HEY! PRODROMUS START SINGING!!!!! HAAAAAAA!!! WHAT'S
THAT!!!!
IT'S HIDEOUS!!!!!!
HE'S DEFINITELY OUT OF TUNE!!!!!!! HIS VOICE IS
HORRIBLE!!!!!!!
DEAR ME!!!!!
He should study at the Conservatory!

Our rhino is bewildered...
it tries to stop its ears, but it doesn't seem to be
so easy for a rhino...

Hey, it has been a good weapon! :)

Prodromus has now 16 points: the rhino 45

The rhinostart walking with its hind legs. HEY, DID
YOU EVER SEE "FANTASIA" BY WALT DISNEY?? Hmm... this
scene is similar... we just would need some nice music
AND THE ONE PRODROMUS IS SINGING IS REALLY NOT THE ONE
I AM REFERRING TO!

Oh, well. The rhino jumped upon Prodromus! (which
stopped singing).
Prodromus: remember the Conservatory... it's a nice
place...

Prodromus 10. The rhinoceros 43.

The rhino is now waiting for Prodromus doing
something.

PRODROMUS WANTS TO REACT! YEAH! I SEE HIM!!!!!

NO!!! HE SINGS!!!!!!!

GO RHINO!!! GO! GO!! STOP HIM!

Ok. Very good. The rhino trampled on the fighter (is
he really a fighter?)

Prodromus 3. The rhino 42.

BUT PRODROMUS IS STILL ALIVE.

HE
OPENS
HIS
MOUTH!!!

NOOOOOOOOO!!! I am a musician!!! I can't hear such!

The rhino seems to understand my points...

Oh, the rhino pushes Prodromus in the corner.
Nobody can see more.
We must admit that this rhino has been very tactful
with us.

I am sorry Rutilia...
I am sure your man was a very good fighter.... but he
was a very bad singer!!!

The rhino is the winner with still 42 reistance
points, while Prodromus succumbed...
(You could go to the conservatory before showing your
"abilities" in the circus! Couldn't you?)

WELL, WE ARE HAVING OTHER COMBATS!!!!! FOLLOW THE
VENATIONES!!!!!!!!! :)

=====
Legatus Externis Rebus Provinciae Italiae
Dominus Praefectus Sodalitatis Egressus
Scriba Aedilis Plebis Cicatricis
Scriba Translationum Primus Academiae Thules
-----------------------------
AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	Gaius Noviodunus <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:58:41 +0100

Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix wrote:

> About the HS: the H was originally II (2), and the S
> stands for 'semis' (1/2). This was because the
> sestertius was originally worth 2 1/2 asses (i.e.
> before the second Punic War). A strange evolution ,
> IMO,... They forgot the original meaning of their 'II
> S' and started to write it as HS (in many inscriptions
> this HS is mentioned).

Salve Tiberi,

Thanks for this great contribution and the explanation about HS. I
probably knew it once, but forgotten in the mean time ;-) So much about
"forgetting". By the way, I guess I've forgotten too what the S stands
for in $. I know £ is an L and stands for Libra, latin name of pound.
But what about the dolar? Anyone knows? I know this is not specifically
Roman, but it's always nice to make comparisons between Roman times and
today's times.

Vale bene,
G. Noviodunus Ferriculus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RES: Venationes
From:	"Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:41:12 -0200

Salve L. Faustus!

It was really an amazing and exciting fight!
And your venatio is really GREAT!!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!

______________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae

tagenialis@yahoo.com.br
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ#: 75873373
______________________________________________

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Endorsements for Tribunis Plebis
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:19:12 +0100

Salvete friends!

Even though I am also running for the position on Tribunis Plebis, I would
like to offer my endorsement of the following 3 candidates. If I am elected
as well, it would be my pleasure to work with the following gentlemen:

Gaius Modius Athanasius : I have read many emails from Athanasius lately and
it is clear that he is a genuinely honorable person wth some great ideas to
improve Nova Roma. His ideas for local groups have shown the initiatives
that he takes in order to promote our micronation. As Gaius Modius
Athanasius stated in his declaration, I truly believe that he will
"cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best interests of Nova
Roma".

Marcus Marcius Rex has previously been a Senator of Nova Roma, where he no
doubt gained a great deal of experience as to the ins and outs of how our
government works. His experience in government affairs and law in the
macronational world is an asset to all Nova Romans. Marcus Marcius Rex is an
honorable man and surely would do an excellent job as Tribunis Plebis!

Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius is another great candidate. Since his
citizenship in 2001, he has been extremely active in Provincia Hispania. His
enthusiasm for Nova Roma is quite contagious and as Legatus Externis Rebus,
he is in charge of recruiting new citizens and in general promoting Nova
Roma in a positive way through the website and personal contact. He has also
done a great deal of work in the Academia Thules as the Praeceptor of
Philosophy. If elected Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius will surely do a great
job as Tribunis Plebis!

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

Quintilianus for Consul!
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor!
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] splitting Novaroma
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:01:26 +0000

What is this talk about splitting Novaroma, and this idea of differences
between Novaromani according to macronational groups?

I don't see it, am I missing something here?

But I can see something else, and that is, as somebody who is wiser than
me once pointed out in an earlier post, just keep repeating it till you make
it so.

I'll have no part in it.

Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Recomending a Book
From:	"Circe Aeaea" <osculum@bigpond.com.au>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:25:24 +1100

Salve

>>From Lepella, To All Salvete!
I just finished a very interesting and amusing book: "Route 66A.D.
On the Trail of Ancient Roman Tourists", by Tony Perrottet<<

Yes I read this recently and thought it was excellent. I had hoped for a bit
more time in Italy however - but didn't Naples and Baiae sound fascinating,
the interesting mosaics in the Bay of Naples and the way that a lot of that
area such as bits of Baiae just crunbles into the sea. He made contemporary
Egypt sound hilarious and quite intriguing - what with the 'Film Noir'
ambience.

Vale

Tullia Sentia Silvana.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:53:00 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gaius Noviodunus <Gaius.Noviodunus@iseli.org>
>> sestertius was originally worth 2 1/2 asses (i.e.
>> before the second Punic War). A strange evolution ,
>> IMO,... They forgot the original meaning of their 'II
>> S' and started to write it as HS (in many inscriptions
>> this HS is mentioned).
>
the 2.5 isn't entirely crazy when you put it together as one quarter of a Denarius and again ten Sestertii = One Aureus = 2.5 Denarii. Weird but no doubt practical. I often regret the lack of what was a 25 Pence and is now a 25 Cent piece.

>But what about the dolar? Anyone knows? I know this is not specifically
>Roman, but it's always nice to make comparisons between Roman times and
>today's times.
>
The only explanation I've seen is a poor one that before the Joachimsthaler silver coin was imported as a US standard anything was circulating but patriots prefered the Mexican Peso to the English Pound. $ is /supposed/ to originate from a very elaborate form (as they tended to flourish writing in those days) of either P or P+S. It should have two vertical strokes, one down, one up and then would have had a kind of forward, backward then forward again bow going down.
Vibius.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:19:44 -0800

Actually the Eastern Roman Empire survived 12 Centuries (337 ce til May
29th, 1453). I do not think you can say both disappeared quickly. The
weaker (Western Empire) broke up into various germanic states within 150
years.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:20 PM
Subject: RES: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two

Salvete,

I got only one and simple thing to say about it.
In moments of troblues, we try to find in Ancient Rome a solution, right?
Well, if I can remember correctly, I have already seen something like this
happen in Ancient Rome.
Roman Empire was divided into Occidental Rome and Oriental Rome (Bizantin
Empire), and everybody knows what happend after.
Both disappeared soonly...
So let us please try to have understanding one with the others and to finish
these arguments.

May Concordia and Pax watch over us.

Respectfully,
______________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae

tagenialis@yahoo.com.br
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ#: 75873373
______________________________________________

-----Mensagem original-----
De: gcassiusnerva [mailto:gcassiusnerva@cs.com]
Enviada em: terça-feira, 12 de novembro de 2002 20:40
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two

Salvete,

An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that splitting
Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could go
it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own laws.
No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups in South
America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own continent.

The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They could
remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both Republics. But if
Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this would
create a problem. A better solution would be to have a citizen who
resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias become a new
Paterfamilias on his own.

I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
it would be better to welcome it.

Nerva

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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:52:27 EST

In a message dated 11/13/02 5:42:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:

> Because I understand it, I did *not* veto your patron's
> veto.
>
>

Cornelius Sulla my Patron? That's a good one. I don't think so.
You did not veto. That was admirable. You were thinking about it though. I
remember our discussions on that subject.

Well, Tribune Salix, we have been debating this for two days now,
and I have heard from one citizen on this list. And her concern was for
inactive Paterfamilias, not whole sale breakups. So the rest of the
citizenry are free
to express their view. After all this is their Forum. And I am not
advocating silence corresponds to consent. Still one has to wonder, as I
told Marcus Cassius, if there is
this huge problem why haven't we heard more about it? Has all the "abusive"
Paterfamilias
muzzled these protesters? As for your contention that the people will find
a voice only when we present a lex to vote on, is nonsense. This list is
plenty vocal when it wants to be.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RES: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two
From:	"Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:20:11 -0200

Salvete,

I got only one and simple thing to say about it.
In moments of troblues, we try to find in Ancient Rome a solution, right?
Well, if I can remember correctly, I have already seen something like this
happen in Ancient Rome.
Roman Empire was divided into Occidental Rome and Oriental Rome (Bizantin
Empire), and everybody knows what happend after.
Both disappeared soonly...
So let us please try to have understanding one with the others and to finish
these arguments.

May Concordia and Pax watch over us.

Respectfully,
______________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae

tagenialis@yahoo.com.br
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ#: 75873373
______________________________________________

-----Mensagem original-----
De: gcassiusnerva [mailto:gcassiusnerva@cs.com]
Enviada em: terça-feira, 12 de novembro de 2002 20:40
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma into Two

Salvete,

An interesting Back Alley discussion got me thinking that splitting
Nova Roma would not be a bad thing. If this happened, Europe could go
it's own way, have her own magistrates and senate, have her own laws.
No more American-European tension. The smaller NR groups in South
America and Asia would then be free to align with whatever side they
choose. Also, there Europeans, with their Euro, would find it easier
and more desirable to pay into a micronation based on their own continent.

The only remaining issue would be concerning gentes. They could
remain as they are, comprising of citizens of both Republics. But if
Europe and America went different ways on gens reform, this would
create a problem. A better solution would be to have a citizen who
resides on a different continent from the Paterfamilias become a new
Paterfamilias on his own.

I feel that eventually an NR split will come between Europe and
America. The tensions have long been there. Instead of fighting it,
it would be better to welcome it.

Nerva

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Mensagem enviada está livre de vírus.
Enviada por GNBS através do MSO2K.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 19/9/2002

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Sestertius etc. (was:Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!)
From:	"Gnaeus Octavius Noricus" <cn.octavius.noricus@gmx.at>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:13:48 +0100

Vibius writes:
<<$ is /supposed/ to originate from a very elaborate form (as they tended to flourish writing in those days) of either P or P+S.>>

I have read that the Dollar sign is (more or less) directly derived from HS (sestertius): Just superimpose H and S - You arrive at something like a "S" with two vertical strokes ($).

Optime valete!
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:42:00 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com escribió:
> In a message dated 11/13/02 5:42:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> salixastur@yahoo.es writes:
>
>
> > Because I understand it, I did *not* veto your patron's
> > veto.
> >
> >
>
> Cornelius Sulla my Patron? That's a good one. I don't think so.
> You did not veto. That was admirable. You were thinking about it
> though. I remember our discussions on that subject.

I did think about it. But I didn't veto. That is the difference between
you and I.

> Well, Tribune Salix, we have been debating this for two days now,
> and I have heard from one citizen on this list. And her concern was
> for inactive Paterfamilias, not whole sale breakups. So the rest of
> the citizenry are free to express their view. After all this is
> their Forum. And I am not advocating silence corresponds to
> consent. Still one has to wonder, as I told Marcus Cassius, if there
> is this huge problem why haven't we heard more about it? Has all the
> "abusive" Paterfamilias muzzled these protesters? As for your
> contention that the people will find a voice only when we present a
> lex to vote on, is nonsense. This list is plenty vocal when it wants
> to be.

The fact is that our current gens system *does* have several problems:

1.- It goes *against* Roman tradition.

2.- It treats grown up adults like children.

3.- It does not allow us to practice Roman religious rites properly.

4.- It is unnecessarily complex.

5.- It promotes "role playing", instead of real family values.

6.- Many prospective citizens are lost because of its quirks.

These are a few flaws taken off the top of my head.

As for People declaring their willingness to follow a gens reform, I
have seen many, many more than just one. Anyway, the only way to know
what the People of Nova Roma actually *think* about gens reform is to
have a serious discussion about it (that means not vetoing discussions
about the subject), and then to have a votation about it (that means
not vetoing votations). As simple as that.

No matter how you try to put it, there was no excuse for that veto.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Gens Reform
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:07:16 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> I Know that the plan I drafted is minimal. It does no
> more than amend the Constitution to make it possible
> for a Gens to consist of multiple families.

Apologize for the heavy snippage, but this is the one thing I wish to
talk about. I think this is probably the best plan and let each gens
decide for itself whether it wishes to remain unified under one
mater/pater or if it wishes to divide into multiple families and if
so who belongs to which, the mater/pater of each, ect. Coupled with
the Censorial Edict concerning leaving a gens, anyone in a gens that
decides to remain a unified whole who wishes to be a seperate family
could join a gens that has adopted to divide.

The only problem I can forsee, and this is a problem that could occur
with any plan other than the status quo, is in the election laws.
Currently in all assemblies tied centuries/tribes the mater/pater
status of candidates must be taken into consideration in breaking the
ties. A simple clerical error (and being human clerical errors can
and will happen) could result in a tie being broken wrongly. In the
case of it coming down to 1 century/tribe the legally incorrect
candidate being declared as elected.

The obvious solution that comes to mind is amending the LEX CORNELIA
OCTAVIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM CENTURIATORUM and LEX CORNELIA VEDIA DE
RATIONE COMITIORUM POPULI TRIBUTORUM to do away with the pater/mater
status clauses and go with the throwing of lots in all cases of tied
candidacies. The current laws regarding ties in the
adoption/rejection of legislation would obviously not be effected.
If I remember correctly the Plebian Assembly would have to amend the
LEX LABIENIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM to effect the
pater/mater status in the Plebian Assembly as well.

Just some more ramifications of gens reform that need to be
considered as well as the effect on the gens structures themselves.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:15:12 +0100 (CET)


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] *VENATIONES* 5th day!!!!!
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:56:17 +0100

Salve Serapio,

Thanks for bringing us another exciting day from the Circus Flaminus!

Latina and her new lion friend have eaten the Sea Monster and found that it
was really yummy with a bit of fresh garlic and a twist of lemon. And Latina
is now sporting a SeaMonster tooth necklace, quite fashionable I hear with
the Venatrix-es!

CONGRATULATIONS TO AQUINCA AND TO LUCIUS ARMINIUS
FAUSTUS!!!! Another great success!!!! :)

Vale!
Diana Moravia Aventina

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