Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:05:03 EST

In a message dated 11/13/02 5:49:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:

> You have said that a thousand of times. And then you attack a proposal
> that would bring Nova Roma closer to ancient Rome, and support a
> *modern reconstruction* like our current gens system.

Man, it is like we speak two versions of English here. I know you are an
intelligent man. So why are you being so dense?
As I told Marcus Cassius we should have started this from the very beginning.
In fact when I first joined NR long before you ever did, I informed Flavius
Vedius
the system was wrong.
His answer was he wanted to develop Roman community. By forging this
Paterfamilias/filafamilius bond he felt he was just doing that. And I have
tried to follow in his foot steps. I tried to forge the same bond with all
my gensmates.
I try and help them when asked, and leave them alone when they don't.
Now that we have it, people have become dependent on it, and although some
obvious problems, inactive Paterfamilias, the slow acceptance into Nova Roma
community, can be solved without total dislocation of the system.
And we will move towards families one day. I already see some Roman families

here, Equitius' for an example. But 1400 is just not enough. You need more
people that are normal families, to be Roman families. I really do not see
how
1400 people formed into 1400 individual families solves our problem.
The Gentes was the start of the Roman clans Salix. The families sprang from
them not vice versa. We have seen the same thing with the Celts, and the
Welsh.
First there were clans, then later families. If we break this up where is
the fierce pride generated that made the Iulians, Fabians, Cornelians and the
Aemilians such movers and shakers of the republic? The Families will come.
One thing I was impressed with was how the Apollonians would spring to the
defense of their Paterfamilias on this main list. That demonstrates pride.
And that to me is one of the defining factors of what Roman community is all
about.
>
> I don't swallow it anymore, Maximus. You are not the protector of Roman
> tradition you claim to be. You are not a Roman traditionalist; you are
> using Roman tradition to further your own political agenda.
>

Actually, I never thought you swallowed anything I said. In fact you have
scorned me from the beginning.
But I have to ask. What political agenda? The one where the most modern
thing I want in Rome is a telephone line and a DSL connection. Damn you.
You found me out.
Of course I'm a Roman traditionalist. I have studied Rome for twoscore
years. I was writing SPQR when I was thirteen. When my mother, a labor
lawyer, was working I was appalled by the number of law suits she had to
handle in a year, and thought how much more efficient Rome handled the
problem.
We had a remarkable opportunity here. We could study the function of the
Republic from the inside, all the nuts and bolts of function, desirability
and form. The children of Rome have forgotten their heritage. Western
philosophers have submerged the message in rights of the individual, and
selfishness. Rome is about the Gods, Country, Honor, Duty.
Such a message should be expected from such a strong warrior nation. And we
have forgotten it.
Let me level with you, Tribune Silax. I did not wish to run for consul.
Actually I wanted
to run for censor, with the upcoming census being a defining moment in NR
history, I wanted to be a part of it. Alas, Pompeia Cornelia who was to run
for consul resigned in the unfortunate incident on the main list, and I
stepped into the vacuum.
But if I lose, I still stay true to our Founder's goals, and utter one of his
favorite quotes "Next year in the Forum." Nova Roma will succeed.
Persistence and patience will make it so. And I have both.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:41:02 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com escribió:
> In a message dated 11/13/02 5:49:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> salixastur@yahoo.es writes:
>
>
> > You have said that a thousand of times. And then you attack a
> > proposal that would bring Nova Roma closer to ancient Rome, and
> > support a *modern reconstruction* like our current gens system.
>
>
> Man, it is like we speak two versions of English here. I know you
> are an intelligent man. So why are you being so dense?
> As I told Marcus Cassius we should have started this from the very
> beginning.
> In fact when I first joined NR long before you ever did, I informed
> Flavius Vedius the system was wrong.
> His answer was he wanted to develop Roman community. By forging this
> Paterfamilias/filafamilius bond he felt he was just doing that. And
> I have tried to follow in his foot steps. I tried to forge the same
> bond with all my gensmates.
> I try and help them when asked, and leave them alone when they don't.
>
> Now that we have it, people have become dependent on it, and although
> some obvious problems, inactive Paterfamilias, the slow acceptance
> into Nova Roma community, can be solved without total dislocation of
> the system. And we will move towards families one day. I already see
> some Roman families here, Equitius' for an example. But 1400 is
> just not enough. You need more people that are normal families, to
> be Roman families. I really do not see how 1400 people formed into
> 1400 individual families solves our problem.

Well, we are finally getting to the point here.

Our gens system, as you have pointed out, has not followed historical
practice since day one. I have spoken with Cassius Iulianus (you know,
the other founder, the one that can answer back because he has never
left Nova Roma), and he has told me that they simply made a mistake
when they decided how the gens system was going to be. No more, no
less.

Perhaps Vedius tried to justify it later on, but it was still an
*involuntary* error. And Cassius Iulianus is currently one of the
strongest supporters of gens reform.

Are we dependent on our current gens system? In my opinion, we are not.
Nothing would stop gens members to speak with each other, to cooperate
with each other, to help each other if they were part of different
familiae within a same gens. And, besides, those willing to do so could
join a common familia (have you read the Cassius/Labienus proposal? It
does not *force* people to form different familiae!).

In exchange, we would have a gens system that would follow Roman
practice more closely. And our gens system would be far more flexible
as well. Many current *serious* problems would be solved.

You say you want to change our gens system later on, when we have more
citizens. That would be disastrous. The longer we wait, the more
difficult it will be to change it.

So, given that a historically accurate gens system would grant us so
many benefits, and that those willing to be under their current pater
would be allowed to do so (once again, have you read the
Cassius/Labienus proposal?), why are you against this necessary reform?

> The Gentes was the start of the Roman clans Salix. The families
> sprang from them not vice versa.

That is just your personal hypothesis; it is not supported by serious
data.

And even if that were true, what? Familiae existed *before* the
Republic. Do you want to build a New Rome or simply a Latian village?

> We have seen the same thing with the Celts, and the Welsh.

Clans are Scottish, not Welsh :-).

> First there were clans, then later families. If we break this up
> where is the fierce pride generated that made the Iulians, Fabians,
> Cornelians and the Aemilians such movers and shakers of the
> republic?

The movers and shakers were the Iulii Caesares, the Fabii Maximi, the
Cornelii Scipiones, the Aemilii Pauli. They were familiae, not gentes.

> The Families will come.

When? And who is to decide that? You?

> One thing I was impressed with was how the Apollonians would spring
> to the defense of their Paterfamilias on this main list. That
> demonstrates pride.
> And that to me is one of the defining factors of what Roman community
> is all about.

One can be proud of many things. One does not need to have a single,
unhistorical Apollonian pater to be proud to be an Apollonian.

In fact, I have always believed that pride is better expressed among
equals.

> > I don't swallow it anymore, Maximus. You are not the protector of
> > Roman tradition you claim to be. You are not a Roman
> > traditionalist; you are using Roman tradition to further your own
> > political agenda.
> >
>
> Actually, I never thought you swallowed anything I said. In fact you
> have scorned me from the beginning.
> But I have to ask. What political agenda? The one where the most
> modern thing I want in Rome is a telephone line and a DSL
> connection. Damn you. You found me out.

Given that our current gens system is a modern invention, you are
defending a modern concept against a traditional one. That's a funny
way to defend Roman tradition.

<<snipped>>

> But if I lose, I still stay true to our Founder's goals, and utter
> one of his favorite quotes "Next year in the Forum." Nova Roma will
> succeed.

Nova Roma has *two* founders, Maxime. One is still with us, and he
publicly disagrees with your point of view. The other one is no longer
with us, and we can't go to ask *him* if he disagrees with you
(although he did it quite often when he was here). It is funny that you
try to justify your opinions in such a way. I wonder what you would do
if Vedius was still with us.

As for Nova Roma's success, I have no doubt about it. Currently, our
gens system is one of the major blocks in the road to success. But do
not worry; we will be able to jump that obstacle.

> Persistence and patience will make it so. And I have both.

So do I.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Tiberius Apollonius' essay
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:17:17 -0500

I thought this was a very enlightening piece, and wanted to know more!
How much did the soldier in the final example make per year? Did the 60
denarii for his slaves represent the cost of the slaves themselves, or
the cost of their upkeep? The rate of taxes (if that is what "payments
to the public treasury" are) seems very low -- about 1.5%. Were
soldiers taxed at a lower rate than the rest of the citizenry?

Thank you for doing this!

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Reply to Geminus Sceptius
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:30:06 EST

In a message dated 11/13/02 6:57:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sceptia@yahoo.es writes:

> About Gens Reform I know that are historical views that are used quite
> wrongly. Oh yes, historically the Paterfamiliaes could even kill his own
> sons and daughters... historically and before the 12 tables relationship
> between paters substituted the relationships between individuals.

You are simplifying. And I never advocated Pater Potestas to that extent.
Not once.
Check your facts

> And privilegia is before the 12 tables rules. Historically there were slaves
> and
> the pater could make to them almost everything... Historically there were
> many wrong things in ancient Rome. Do we want to repeat them? Maximus seems
> to be on that way...
>
Historically there was many wrongs based on modern thinking. It was a
pastoral economy that slowly became slave based economy using conquests to do
so. However, recall, it was the way of nations in those days.
The Tables of XII was set up for a pastoral community, which would not be our
final model anyway.

Do we want to repeat them? Maximus seems to be on that way...

Now let's be realistic. If I believed in Pater Potestas 100% I'd be paying
Caeso Fabius' bills.
Now I like Fabius, and if he ever asked me for loan I'd certainly try to
accommodate him, because of my position, but to pay his bills, put him to
death, banish him from the Gens, really!
That's too absurd to even contemplate.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:15:54 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> escribió:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Just a comment on some of Astur's comments about the gentes.
>
> The fact is that our current gens system *does* have several
> problems:
>
> 1.- It goes *against* Roman tradition.
>
> Sulla: When Nova Roma gets rid of Materfamilia you can come back and
> cite that as a valid excuse. When Nova Roma has animal sacrifice you
> can use that as a valid excuse. When Nova Roma changes the website
> from using the "Best" of Rome to reconstructing Rome as closely as it
> was in the time of the ancients you can use that excuse. It does not
> wash with me. When Nova Roma promulgates a TRULY accurate
> gens/familia reform that was in line with true Roman Tradition you
> can use that as an excuse. The system we have currently in place is
> not correct nor is the system that was debated on the ML and the
> Senate.

Not too long ago, you said that the gens reform proposal was attacking
Roman tradition. You claimed to be the defender of the Mos Maiorum. Now
you seem to have changed your mind.

As for other Roman traditions, I never said that we should follow Roman
tradition in every single aspect. However, having a gens system that is
closer to Roman practice is not on the same level as animal sacrifice
or slavery. I think that you will agree with that.

> 2.- It treats grown up adults like children.
>
> Sulla: Since the promulgation of the Censor edict our adults can
> leave any gentes they are currently in at any time. So, our adults
> are very powerful to act on their own if they see the need. And
> based on your First flaw you pointed out we should not even have our
> adults have their ability to leave gentes because as you state it is
> against Roman Tradition. So where do you stand on this exactly?

Yes. Thankfully, gens members can now leave a gens if they are not
happy in it. I remember that you opposed that reform as well.

But no one can still found a real familia. I want that those who want
to establish real Roman familiae be able to do it. That is where I
stand.

> 3.- It does not allow us to practice Roman religious rites properly.
>
> Sulla: Oh it does not does it? How do you know Oh Paterfamilias?

I do not own a gens like you do; you are right. I do not want to. If I
had wanted to own one, I think I would have been able to found my own
gens.

I am not a paterfamilias (neither you are), and that's why I want that
*real* patresfamilias become legal in Nova Roma; to found a *real*
Roman familia and to practice the rituals of the familiar cult
*properly*.

> 4.- It is unnecessarily complex.
>
> Sulla: Complex? How? A prospect has the choice to join an existing
> gens or create a new one. If that prospect decides to join an
> existing one he gets pater/mater approval. How complex is that? I
> guess to complicated for you. But then you went through the same
> process.

Maybe he doesn't get that pater/mater approval. Maybe he has to wait
for months. Yes; it is complicated for me. But I think that some others
find it complicated as well.

> 5.- It promotes "role playing", instead of real family values.
>
> Sulla: Oh care to ask any Cornelian if they are role playing.
> Before you start throwing insults that might affect other gentes I
> think you should tread carefully. Just becuase you are role playing
> does not mean the rest of us are. Some of us take our duties very
> seriously. Its a shame you obviously do not.

I did not mention your name. I did not mention your gens. I did not
mention how seriously you may take your duties.

> 6.- Many prospective citizens are lost because of its quirks.
>
> Sulla: Again this has been dealt with already with the promulgation
> of the Lex Cornelia and the Praetorial edict. If that isnt enough we
> can always find away to deal with inactive paters. But it should not
> affect those who currently are.

Prospective citizens still have to wait for too long. It is obvious
that the system does not work.

> These are a few flaws taken off the top of my head.
>
> Sulla: Your flaws are not really flaws.

I don't think so.

> As for People declaring their willingness to follow a gens reform, I
> have seen many, many more than just one. Anyway, the only way to know
> what the People of Nova Roma actually *think* about gens reform is to
> have a serious discussion about it (that means not vetoing
> discussions
> about the subject), and then to have a votation about it (that means
> not vetoing votations). As simple as that.
>
> Sulla: I have not seen anyone say we want gens reform to get it
> historically accurate. I have seen people say they want to deal with
> the inactive pater/mater issue and with that I can also throw my
> complete support with. I have not seen anyone state they want to
> break down the gens structure.

Well; you should dive into the list archives, then.

> No matter how you try to put it, there was no excuse for that veto.
>
> Sulla: I had complete right to veto. The proposed law was not
> right for Nova Roma. It would have caused much more damage to Nova
> Roma then the current system we have in place.

How was it supposed to cause "much more damage to Nova Roma"? What kind
of damage?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] TITUS LABIENUS FOR CONSUL
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:20:31 -0600 (CST)

Salvete Cives Novae Romae,

Today, I come before you to express my endorsement of a fellow
candidate.

My involvement in Nova Roma began in mid-2753, as Curule Aedile
and as Scriba Censoris. In the latter role, I worked with another
Censor's scribe, Senator Titus Labienus Fortunatus. I quickly
recognized him as a hard worker and scrupulously honest person.
In the years to come, my admiration for Senator Labienus has
grown.

In 2754, after an election season that saw a great deal of hostility
from many individuals, Titus Labienus was elected Tribune. This was a
difficult assignment; the mood in the Senate was very tense in the early
part of that year, and Tribune Labienus's colleague in office was a
controversial figure. Titus Labienus upheld the dignity of his office
through his colleague's resignation and replacement; said replacement
(a self-admitted "client" of another magistrate) soon disappeared,
leaving Labienus to shoulder the burden of the Tribuneship by himself.
He did this superbly, authoring several laws, convening the Comitia,
and keeping vigilant watch over the rights of citizens, effectively
working without a colleague.

At the end of that year, Labienus was elected Praetor. He performed
moderation duties on the mailing list, provided legal advice to
the Senior Consul, and was a major participant in Senatorial debates.
During the most divisive debate of this year, concerning Gens Reform,
it was Praetor Labienus who suggested an alteration to one of the
proposals, addressing concerns that the rights of citizens were being
overlooked. I hope that, as my successor, he and his colleague will
give you the opportunity to vote on this important issue.

I consider Senator Titus Labienus Fortunatus to be a model of
Roman Virtue. He demonstrated Industria by serving as Rogator
in 2752, filling an important position that required him to put his
further advancement on hold for the next year. His calm nature
and mild temper are a fine example of Clementia. His knowledge of
history, Latin, and Stoic philosophy demonstrate Humanitas. And,
he has contributed to public Concordia, by acting as a moderate
voice in the Senate. Indeed, I know of no virtue in which he is
lacking.

This November, I ask you to elect Titus Labienus Fortunatus as
Consul. I have the utmost confidence and respect for this
dedicated magistrate and fine example of Roman Virtue.

Valete,
M. Octavius Germanicus,
Consul.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:17:12 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Just a comment on some of Astur's comments about the gentes.

The fact is that our current gens system *does* have several problems:

1.- It goes *against* Roman tradition.

Sulla: When Nova Roma gets rid of Materfamilia you can come back and cite that as a valid excuse. When Nova Roma has animal sacrifice you can use that as a valid excuse. When Nova Roma changes the website from using the "Best" of Rome to reconstructing Rome as closely as it was in the time of the ancients you can use that excuse. It does not wash with me. When Nova Roma promulgates a TRULY accurate gens/familia reform that was in line with true Roman Tradition you can use that as an excuse. The system we have currently in place is not correct nor is the system that was debated on the ML and the Senate.

2.- It treats grown up adults like children.

Sulla: Since the promulgation of the Censor edict our adults can leave any gentes they are currently in at any time. So, our adults are very powerful to act on their own if they see the need. And based on your First flaw you pointed out we should not even have our adults have their ability to leave gentes because as you state it is against Roman Tradition. So where do you stand on this exactly?

3.- It does not allow us to practice Roman religious rites properly.

Sulla: Oh it does not does it? How do you know Oh Paterfamilias?

4.- It is unnecessarily complex.

Sulla: Complex? How? A prospect has the choice to join an existing gens or create a new one. If that prospect decides to join an existing one he gets pater/mater approval. How complex is that? I guess to complicated for you. But then you went through the same process.

5.- It promotes "role playing", instead of real family values.

Sulla: Oh care to ask any Cornelian if they are role playing. Before you start throwing insults that might affect other gentes I think you should tread carefully. Just becuase you are role playing does not mean the rest of us are. Some of us take our duties very seriously. Its a shame you obviously do not.

6.- Many prospective citizens are lost because of its quirks.

Sulla: Again this has been dealt with already with the promulgation of the Lex Cornelia and the Praetorial edict. If that isnt enough we can always find away to deal with inactive paters. But it should not affect those who currently are.

These are a few flaws taken off the top of my head.

Sulla: Your flaws are not really flaws.

As for People declaring their willingness to follow a gens reform, I
have seen many, many more than just one. Anyway, the only way to know
what the People of Nova Roma actually *think* about gens reform is to
have a serious discussion about it (that means not vetoing discussions
about the subject), and then to have a votation about it (that means
not vetoing votations). As simple as that.

Sulla: I have not seen anyone say we want gens reform to get it historically accurate. I have seen people say they want to deal with the inactive pater/mater issue and with that I can also throw my complete support with. I have not seen anyone state they want to break down the gens structure.

No matter how you try to put it, there was no excuse for that veto.

Sulla: I had complete right to veto. The proposed law was not right for Nova Roma. It would have caused much more damage to Nova Roma then the current system we have in place.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Endorsements for Tribunis Plebis
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:27:28 EST

Diana Moravia Aventina:

Thank you for your very kind words. I believe that working together is
extremely important. By working together, and understanding both sides of
every coin can great things come to light. I hope we can both serve as
Tribunes together. It would be an honor to work with you Diana!

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 11/13/2002 3:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
diana@pandora.be writes:

>
> Even though I am also running for the position on Tribunis Plebis, I would
> like to offer my endorsement of the following 3 candidates. If I am elected
> as well, it would be my pleasure to work with the following gentlemen:
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius : I have read many emails from Athanasius lately
> and
> it is clear that he is a genuinely honorable person wth some great ideas to
> improve Nova Roma. His ideas for local groups have shown the initiatives
> that he takes in order to promote our micronation. As Gaius Modius
> Athanasius stated in his declaration, I truly believe that he will
> "cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best interests of Nova
> Roma".
>

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Nova Roma - Dividing in Two
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:19:19 -0800 (PST)

Centurian M. Bianchius Antonius said:
"...Lacus Magni could get really annoyed at America
Mediatlantica and
declare war! We could invade and take over(notice the
bias here)....it would be SOOOO Roman!"

Renarta: LOL!!! Yeah, but then, our folks in America
Austroccidentalis would have to go up there and whup
your butts--

One riot, one Ranger, no problem... :)

---
Renata Corva

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Research journal
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:04:19 -0500

On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 08:22 AM,
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> As well, rather than type up a whole new header and new everything to
> make another message, I'd like to start up a research group, for
> anyone who's interested. Just a small group of people, perhaps even a
> fully chartered sodalitas, who have come together for the sole purpose
> of researching various topics relating to Rome and Roman related
> material, and perhaps publishing such research into the form of real
> research papers, journals, and so on. Also, another way to get our
> name out there with good connotation, and another, possible, source of
> income.
>
> However, with this second proposal (the second paragraph, that is),
> I'm not sure, and perhaps a good lawyer or someone who knows this can
> tell me, as to our maintaining status as a non profit corporation.
> Perhaps someone could fill me in on this.
>

I think this is a great idea, and I do not believe this could affect
our nonprofit status. Many such journals are run by nonprofit
organizations or universities. I would suggest, however, that the
journal be open to submissions from scholars outside the group or even
outside NR. If we could assemble a committee of real scholars to create
a "peer-reviewed" journal, with non-scholars doing the copy editing,
layout, printing and distribution, we would be doing a real service to
the world of scholarship and to NR.

I would be very interested in such a project, though I have little time
to contribute because of my own studies (alas, not in Roman history,
but in my professional field, journalism).

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Endorsements for Tribunis Plebis
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:02:00 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Diana Moravia Aventina:
>
> Thank you for your very kind words. I believe that working
together is
> extremely important. By working together, and understanding both
sides of
> every coin can great things come to light. I hope we can both
serve as
> Tribunes together. It would be an honor to work with you Diana!
>
> In Fellowship:
>
> G. Modius Athanasius

Salve Diana et Salve Gaie Modi!

Thank you very much and I too would be most honoured to work with
you, in case we all got elected (which of course is still in the
voters' hands).

Avete et Valete

Marcus Marcius Rex


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Apologies to Everyone
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:22:23 -0000

Gaius Cassius Nerva wrote:

> And also apologies to Equitius Marinus...I am putting
> you back on the provincial mailing list, since my abrupt
> cancellation of your subscription was unfair.

You WHAT?!? You cancelled my subscription to an official
provincial mailing list, did you? I think it was rather more
than unfair.

> Please send me you email addy so I
> can do that before going bed tonight.

Use gawne AT cesmail DOT net

> I would like to get back "in the rights" with everyone

It's going to take more than this. But I do appreciate that
life is being difficult for you right now. Get some sleep.
Have a good Thanksgiving.

-- Marinus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] An Essay for You to Enjoy
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:44:41 -0800 (PST)

Greetings, T. Apollonius Cicatrix--

I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your
essay. It was pretty interesting to see how the Roman
economy seems to have fluctuated over time.

As a side note--Do you have any information on how
Roman army physicians were paid? Was it by stpiendia,
or byt other means? It is information I would be
interested in posting on the Sodalitas Medicum list.

Vale,

Renata Corva

=====
Chantal
http://www.4dw.net/aerden/theran/theranweyr.html

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Research Journal and a Formal Calling
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:22:26 -0500

Sp. Postumius Tubertus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete Amici,

<Ex Litteris Praetoris Patriciae Cassiae> I think this is a great idea, and
I do not believe this could affect our nonprofit status. Many such journals
are run by nonprofit organizations or universities. I would suggest,
however, that the journal be open to submissions from scholars outside the
group or even outside NR. If we could assemble a committee of real scholars
to create a "peer-reviewed" journal, with non-scholars doing the copy
editing, layout, printing and distribution, we would be doing a real service
to the world of scholarship and to NR.

I would be very interested in such a project, though I have little time to
contribute because of my own studies (alas, not in Roman history, but in my
professional field, journalism).
</>

That said, I would like to now formally call for all those interested,
"scholars" and non-scholars alike, to contact me _privately_ (that is,
postumius @ gmx.net). We'll have to see what we can come up with (catchy
name, slogan, icon, etc.). I think we can do some nice things here.

As well, perhaps we can add this in with the Eagle, perhaps an article or
two from this 'group' (for lack of a better word, at present) with each
publication? Just more from the Postumian Thought-Pot.

Optime Valete,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus
Civis Novae Romae

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Apologies to Everyone
From:	"gcassiusnerva" <gcassiusnerva@cs.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:06:53 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
> You have posted quite a few of surprising, negative and destructive
messages recently.

Salvete,

Guys, Sextus Apollonius Scipio is right.

I have to offer Nova Roma in general a very real and sincere
apology. Over the last few days I *have* been lashing out, in all
the wrong directions. I make no excuses. Suffice it to say my issues
right now are not about Nova Roma. But you guys made a quick and easy
target, and that is very wrong.

In addition to Nova Roma in general, I also offer personal apologies
top Marcus Octavius Germanicus for recent postings here and in the BA.
And I suspect I have also hurt the feelings of Cassius and Patricia
too. Since they have never been anything but friendly to me, this is
unexcusable. And also apologies to Equitius Marinus...I am putting
you back on the provincial mailing list, since my abrupt cancellation
of your subscription was unfair. Please send me you email addy so I
can do that before going bed tonight.

I would like to get back "in the rights" with everyone. But first I
am going to take a leave of absence till after the Thanksgiving
holiday to see about getting matters in better control.

Gaius Cassius Nerva


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] What is it worth?
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:19:41 -0000

Salve,

Gens reform has reared its head again, though not suprisingly given
that the "silly season" has descended upon us. I'm sure if it
weren't this it would be some other issue. No one can argue that the
current system is historical, but is that it is unhistorical really
worth the current political bloodletting? Is the current system so
horrible that it must be changed in an overnight storm of finger
pointing, rather than through reasoned calm discussion? I'm sure
that Nova Roma will endure this storm as it has many others that I
have studied of her past and the few tempests I've seen come and go.
However I have to wonder is gens reform in what ever form it
ultimately takes really worth the hurt feelings, anger, and bitter
divisiveness and the pouring of poison into the political well?

Vale,

Q. Cassius CAlvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Plebeian citizens!!!
From:	"Daniel" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:25:51 -0000

Salvete quirites novaromani!
I offer my experience as provincial propraetor of Argentina for
almost two years. That´s what I´ve already done for the betterment of
Nova Roma. Now it´s time to offer my efforts at the Central
administration!!!!.
The oldest citizens know my quiet but loyal job as proprætor!. I´m a
man of few words, but if I am elected as tribunus plebis I´ll do my
best honestly the same way as I do as propraetor.
Vivant Novam Romam et provinciam Argentinam!!

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

Propraetor provincialis Argentinae
Candidate for tribunus plebis
Factio Veneta (Crux Australis)

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Apologies to Everyone
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:20:02 -0600 (CST)

Salve Nerva,

> In addition to Nova Roma in general, I also offer personal apologies
> top Marcus Octavius Germanicus for recent postings here and in the BA.

Thanks... let us consider it forgotten.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Local Group Idea Part II-Response to Caius Minucius Scaevola
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:45:39 -0500

On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 01:42:30PM -0500, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com wrote:
> From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Caius Minucius Scaevola. Salvete.

Salve, F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus!

> I believe that my missive may not have been clear about my noble
> "ancestor" who served as Consul in Old Rome. The engineering work of
> the Old Romans was the cornerstone of the great physical
> infrastructure of the Roman State. My "ancestor" helped keep the City
> great by his efforts and, as such, I am humbled because I have so much
> to attempt to live up to.

Ah - thank you for the clarification. I now see your point, and can only
agree; living up to (and perhaps surpassing) great deeds, whether those
of an ancestor or an "ancestor", is an admirable goal. I can only wish
you the best of luck in the endeavor.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
Let him who wishes for peace prepare for war.
-- Vegetius. Also quoted "si vis pacem, para bellum" - if you desire peace, prepare
for war.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Congratulations!!
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:18:27 -0500

On Tue, Nov 12, 2002 at 09:14:29PM -0000, danedwardsuk wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> My congratulations to honourable Gnaeus Equitius Marinus, Curule
> Aedile of Nova Roma. I'm sure you will do an excellent job both this
> year and next.

A belated followup on my part -

Salve, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Amice! My heartiest congratulations on
your accession to office; it is, in my opinion, well deserved and
admirably suited to your abilities, knowledge, and experience. I am
happy and proud that you have won this honor... and I believe Nova Roma
is the better for it.

My best wishes,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magna vis veritatis quae facile se per se ipsa defendat.
Great is the power of truth that can easily defend itself with its own force.
-- N/A


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Temporarily off-list
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:47:27 -0500

Salvete, quirites -

As of tomorrow morning (Nov 15), I'll be taking off on a long and rather
difficult single-handed sailing passage (Maryland to Florida). The most
likely scenario for my Net access is that I will not have any for a
couple of weeks, then "reappear" on the Nova Roma radar. :)

Happy upcoming holidays to those who observe them. Keep the fires of
Nova Roma burning bright, my fellow cives... I wish all of you health,
love, and peace.

Until we meet again,

Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Arte et Marte.
With peaceful effort and warlike feats.
-- N/A


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Apologies to Everyone
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:25:25 -0500

On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 12:06:53AM -0000, gcassiusnerva wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@y..., Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> <scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
> > You have posted quite a few of surprising, negative and destructive
> messages recently.
>
> Salvete,
>
> Guys, Sextus Apollonius Scipio is right.

<dryly> Thank you for addressing only the male side of NR. Are you
excluding our female citizens from your apology?

HINT: if you're attempting to apologize, it pays to be extra _extra_
careful about how you word things; the people you're apologizing to are
already understandably edgy in regard to your actions and
communications, and it takes a very little slip to fan the flames.
I, for one, find it a bit annoying that you have not taken that care
after your offensive act, particularly since your statement shows that
you *intended* it to be offensive.

> I have to offer Nova Roma in general a very real and sincere
> apology. Over the last few days I *have* been lashing out, in all
> the wrong directions. I make no excuses. Suffice it to say my issues
> right now are not about Nova Roma. But you guys made a quick and easy
> target, and that is very wrong.

This particular target shoots back, with devastating effect: since the
coin in which most people trade on discussion lists is respect, you've
managed to make yourself significantly poorer (certainly in my opinion
and estimation.) Keep firing at this "quick and easy target", and you're
likely to find yourself shot down in flames, and dirt-poor in the above
coin to boot.

> I would like to get back "in the rights" with everyone.

In my opinion, insulting the people that you're purportedly apologizing
to ("quick and easy target"... does that imply gullible, naive, stupid,
or all three and more?) is _not_ the way to go about it.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare.
Anybody can err, but only the fool persists in his fault.
-- Cicero, "Philippicae orationes".


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Apologies to Everyone
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:59:19 -0800 (PST)

Salve Gaius Cassius Nerva Omnesque,

> I would like to get back "in the rights" with everyone. But first I
> am going to take a leave of absence till after the Thanksgiving
> holiday to see about getting matters in better control.

We all go through rough times and sometimes we lose control. Let's say this is over.

Vale,

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Candidate for Quaestor

My program at: http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Temporarily off-list
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 05:25:59 -0500

Salve,

Good luck, Godspeed, and to quote our eminent Pater Familias:

"Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!"

Bene vale in pace Deorum,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin A. Okopnik [mailto:ben@callahans.org] On Behalf Of Caius
Minucius Scaevola
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 1:47 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Cc: SodalitasMilitarium@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Temporarily off-list

Salvete, quirites -

As of tomorrow morning (Nov 15), I'll be taking off on a long and rather
difficult single-handed sailing passage (Maryland to Florida). The most
likely scenario for my Net access is that I will not have any for a
couple of weeks, then "reappear" on the Nova Roma radar. :)

Happy upcoming holidays to those who observe them. Keep the fires of
Nova Roma burning bright, my fellow cives... I wish all of you health,
love, and peace.

Until we meet again,

Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Arte et Marte.
With peaceful effort and warlike feats.
-- N/A


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dividing Nova Roma
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:44:25 -0800 (PST)

--- jmath669642reng@webtv.net wrote:
SNIP
> Recently the Senate has
> passed a change to the
> tax laws which brings the taxes more in line with
> the ability of all to
> contribute to NR as they are able. This was brought
> to the attention of
> the Senate by a European, and the Senate has
> followed through on his
> concerns.

Actually It was a South American who bought up the
subject of taxes, wanting them reduced, and an USA
citizen (myself) who bought up the idea of basing
citizen's taxes on the figures provided by the CIA.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A question for condidates and a question for voters 1
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:01:19 EST

In a message dated 11/13/02 5:45:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:

> Do you want to build a New Rome or simply a Latian village?
>
>

Right now, we have just enough people for a Latin village. As for Cassius'
memory, it is just as selective as Vedius. Besides, I believe that Vedius
wanted Roman community, even though he himself locked his Gens to his
immediate family only, yet he encouraged Gens recruitment. This ignorance
thing won't hunt either. I informed Vedius in Aug '88, he said what I said
earlier in on this list. I assumed he informed Cassius. If they wanted to
change it, then was the time when we were operating for 7 months and had 113
members. They decided against it. Maybe in March of 88, that was the
excuse, but in June 89, when Vedius was dictator he could have changed it
then as well. He knew the facts by then. I had sent him several papers on
the subject in Nov. '98. He didn't. He preferred his system.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 06:12:26 EST

In a message dated 11/13/02 3:45:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:

> there was no excuse for that veto.
>
>

IN YOUR OPINION!!!
Again you are fond of making absolute statements. Well God I think you are
wrong. Four Senators thought you were wrong, and 87 Nova Romans think you
are wrong. So I guess it is a tie...
You did not lift the veto, because you weren't sure that Lucius Cornelius
wasn't right and it would be bad for Rome. If you were sure, you would have.
I can never be a Tribune, I'm a patrician, but yours is the toughest job.
You have to protect the people from abuse and bad laws against the spirit of
the Constitution. You did the right thing.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Apologies to Everyone
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:09:59 +0100

Salve Nerva,

I think that you aplology was very honorably done and was very sweet.
And I enjoy your posts: you are certainly full of fire ! I admit that
sometimes I don't agree with them, but then again, who agrees with everyone
100% of the time?

Vale and looking forward to hearing from you when you come back and Happy
Thanksgiving!
Diana Moravia Aventina

PS-- Thanksgiving is my favorite US holiday, because it is non-religious and
it is good for everyone once a year to remember whatever good things they
have in this life. A very DOWN side of living in Europe as a US citizen is
that Thanksgiving is not a holiday here: no big turkey, no stuffing and the
biggest heartbreaker of all.... no pumpkin pie! :-(((((((((

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: gcassiusnerva [mailto:gcassiusnerva@cs.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 14 november 2002 1:07
Aan: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [Nova-Roma] Apologies to Everyone

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
> You have posted quite a few of surprising, negative and destructive
messages recently.

Salvete,

Guys, Sextus Apollonius Scipio is right.

I have to offer Nova Roma in general a very real and sincere
apology. Over the last few days I *have* been lashing out, in all
the wrong directions. I make no excuses. Suffice it to say my issues
right now are not about Nova Roma. But you guys made a quick and easy
target, and that is very wrong.

In addition to Nova Roma in general, I also offer personal apologies
top Marcus Octavius Germanicus for recent postings here and in the BA.
And I suspect I have also hurt the feelings of Cassius and Patricia
too. Since they have never been anything but friendly to me, this is
unexcusable. And also apologies to Equitius Marinus...I am putting
you back on the provincial mailing list, since my abrupt cancellation
of your subscription was unfair. Please send me you email addy so I
can do that before going bed tonight.

I would like to get back "in the rights" with everyone. But first I
am going to take a leave of absence till after the Thanksgiving
holiday to see about getting matters in better control.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Apologies to Everyone
From:	"sceptia" <sceptia@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:29:05 -0000

Salve Aventina!

First of all, thanks a lot for your supoport, I think being in the
offcie with you as partner could be a great honor. So in return I say
to all, vote her!! :-D

And a little question. You say Thanksgiving is not religious, but I
thought it was. Wasn't the first pray gave by the pilgrims in
Massachussets to the Christian God in 1623? Something related to
their harvest, I guess...
And yes, Europe has no Thankgiving day. In exchange, in Spain we have
to suffer Christmas day and the most hated holiday... Holy Week!! :(
You know, more than a half are religious holidays... for an atheist
sceptic as I am, it is really painful, except for being it a non
working day. :-D

Vale bene,

L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
- Candidate to Tribunus Plebis -

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@p...> wrote:
> PS-- Thanksgiving is my favorite US holiday, because it is non-
religious and> it is good for everyone once a year to remember
whatever good things they> have in this life. A very DOWN side of
living in Europe as a US citizen is> that Thanksgiving is not a
holiday here: no big turkey, no stuffing and the> biggest
heartbreaker of all.... no pumpkin pie! :-(((((((((

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS IX PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM EDICTUM
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 05:31:54 -0800 (PST)

EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM
EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS IX

Effective ante diem XVIII Kal. DECEMBRAS MMDCCLV
(14 November 2002), I, Marcus Bianchius Antonius,
Propraetor of the Provincia Lacus Magni,
issue this edict concerning the organization of

Great Provincia of Lacus Magni:

Item I – The Regionis Orientalis (Eastern Regio) and the

Regionis Occidentalis (Western Regio) are dissolved and

will be replaced with the organization detailed in Item II.

Item II – The provincia will be divided into three Regio.

Lacus Magni Regionis Orientalis will consist of Ohio and West Virginia.

Lacus Magni Regionis Occidentalis will consist of Indiana, Illinois, and Kentucky.

Lacus Magni Regionis Septemtrionalis will consist of Michigan and Wisconsin.

This will be a transitional structure until each state reaches 20 citizens and can

support its own Legate representation.

Item III – A. Propraetor is the Provisional Governor and the authority flows

downward from him.

B. Each region with 20 or more Citizens shall have its own Legate. The

Propraetor has the right to overrule this if he feels it necessary.

C. Each region with 50 or more Citizens shall have a Procurator, which

shall act as a Senior Legate. The Propraetor has the right to overrule

this if he feels it necessary.

Item IV - The rights and responsibilities of a Legate are:

1. To govern their respective Regio under the direction of the

Propraetor.

2. To communicate their activities to the Propraetor in a timely manner.

They may communicate with members of their respective Regio in the

name of the Propraetor.

3. Shall act as a councilor to the Propraetor, especially when it pertains

to their region.

Item V - The Procurator shall function as a Senior Legate who governs a more

populated region. The Procurator has all the privileges of the Legate with the

addition of the below rights and responsibilities:

I. With the instructions of the Propraetor, the Procurator (Senior

Legate) may act in the name of the Propraetor Lacus Magni in order to:

1. Obtain information

2. Obtain goods for the Provincia

3. Contact non-magisterial citizens

II. With the written instructions of the Propraetor, the Procurator

(Senior Legate) may act in the name of the Propraetor in order to:

1. Contact Magistrates and other Governors of Nova Roma

2. Speak out on public forum of Nova Roma on behalf of the Propraetor

Lacus Magni.

3. Contact and discuss with and instruct other Legati Lacus Magni.

The Procurator can appoint (as he sees fit) local administrators (scribes) to help him

carry out his duties effectively. The scribes the Procurator appoints are accountable to

the Procurator and to the Propraetor if necessary.

Item VI – Only the Propraetor can appoint Legates. A Legate is viewed as a

representative of the Propraetor.

Only the Propraetor can appoint a Procurator, who is viewed as a representative

of the Propraetor.

The Legates and Procurator are ultimately accountable to the Propraetor,

who has the sole ability to appoint and un-appoint the Legate and Procurator as

he sees fit.

Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

---------------------------------
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS X PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM EDICTUM
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 05:37:20 -0800 (PST)

EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS PROVINCIAE LACUUM MAGNORUM
EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS X

Effective ante diem XVIII Kal. DECEMBRAS MMDCCLV
(14 November 2002), I, Marcus Bianchius Antonius,
Propraetor of the Provincia Lacus Magni,
issue this edict as a follow up to Edict IX:

I. Legate Appointments:

Note: These Regions currently has less than 50 citizens total.

Lacus Magni Regionis Occidentalis shall be administered by Prima Fabia Drusila.

Lacus Magni Regionis Septemtrionalis shall be administered by Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator.

They are granted all the rights and responsibilities that said title and position contains.

II. Procurator Appointment:

Note This Region currently has more than 50 citizens total.

Lacus Magni Regionis Orientalis shall be administered by Gaius Modius Athanasius

He is granted all the rights and responsibilities that said title and position contains.

III. Scriba Propraetoris Appointment:

Octavia Bianchia Crispiana is appointed Scriba Proptaetoris for Lacus Magni.

IV. Retiarius Appointment:

Spurius Postumius Tubertus is to continue as Retiarius.

Signed,

Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

---------------------------------
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Congratulations!!
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:55:55 -0000

Caius Minucius Scaevola:

> Salve, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus Amice!

Salve, my friend.

> My heartiest congratulations on
> your accession to office; it is, in my opinion, well deserved and
> admirably suited to your abilities, knowledge, and experience. I am
> happy and proud that you have won this honor... and I believe Nova
> Roma is the better for it.

Thank you so much, especially since you've known me far longer
than any of the others here. I shall endeavor to live up to your
high expectations, and to serve our republic well.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Thanksgiving
From:	"Diana Aventina- Pagan World" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:29:21 +0100

Salve Sceptius,

>And a little question. You say Thanksgiving is not religious, but I
>thought it was.
Thanksgiving was pretty religious when it began, but when I lived in the US,
I found that everyone celebrated it as a US holiday without a specific
religion being the focus.

>except for being it a non working day. :-D
That's always an advantage in a Catholic Country :-)

Vale!
Diana

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gens Reform
From:	labienus@novaroma.org
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:28:40 US/Central

Salvete Quirites

Quite a lot has been said about gens reform lately, and many good points have
been made. The most important, in my opinion, being the words of Q Cassius
Calvus. "Is the current system so horrible that it must be changed in an
overnight storm of finger pointing, rather than through reasoned calm
discussion?" The answer is no. Nothing that means so much to so many cives
should be rushed. It is a subject that requires deliberation and sensitivity.
I would expect the effort to take at least another five or six months of
opinion-gathering and careful consideration of options from all sides of the
issue.

My personal opinion on the issue, which is no more or less important than
anyone else's opinion, is that some gens reform which recognizes the fact that
our gentes are only families in the loosest sense of the word is desirable.
The proper objects of pietas are one's actual ancestors, and paternal and
maternal authority should only extend to one's actual descendants. (Nota bene:
I include adopted descendants and ancestors in there, but only if the adoption
involves an actual break with the biological family of the adoptee.) The
recognition of real Nova Roman familiae is therefore primarily a religious
issue for me. A Res Publica dedicated to the restoration of the Religio Romana
and the Roman culture--a culture that was centered in many ways around the
household cult--needs systems which recognize and foster the practices of that
religion and culture.

And note that it is a fact that the forms of our institutions affect how we do
things. They set the mood, if you will, for the way that Nova Roma functions.
If our gentes were not defined in the constitution as families, and our gens
leaders not called patres and matres familias, would the members of our various
gentes refer to each other as "brother" or "sister"? Would they salute their
gens leader as "pater" or "mater" and act in such a familial manner? In like
manner, naming our consules "presidents" and our censores "secretaries" would
substantially change the way in which our institutions were viewed and treated.

Now, there is an immense benefit to Nova Roma from the current system, namely
the feeling of familial bonding that some of our gentes enjoy. I do not want
to lose this! However, we have also had periodic problems as the leaders of
our gentes are confused with people who have the rights of parents over the
members of their gentes. Witness Cornelius Consul's strident demands for the
Mos Maiorum in opposition to the Lex Octavia Salicia. I fully believe that it
is possible to come up with a system that preserves the positive aspects of our
current gentes while paying heed to the ancient ways.

Additionally, I am quite concerned with the bonds that our cives have formed to
date. My opponent's point that many people are more than comfortable with the
status quo does not fall on deaf ears. Any reform package *must* take this
into account. As M Octavius pointed out earlier, I was one of the people
working hard to come up with a successful compromise during the recent Senate
debate over the issue. I attempted to incorporate L Sicinius' desire for
choice into the Cassian proposal's call for history. Further, I worked with Q
Fabius and Pompeia Cornelia in an effort to retain the beneficial aspects of
the current system for all of our cives.

None of the packages presented to date is, in my opinion, adequate. We need a
gens system that fosters community, pays heed to history, recognizes religious
duties for those that practice the Religio Romana without impinging upon our
cives' freedom of religion, retains the bonds that currently exist among our
cives, and steers Nova Roma toward Her goal of nationhood. This is a tall
order, and it will not be achieved quickly or easily. But it *is* a goal worth
working for.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A question for candidates and a question for voters
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:42:22 -0800 (PST)

(Had to reply to this thread, because the subject line
has driving me batty for days!) :)

I'm probably on the outer fringe of the Modernist view
on this gens issue. The main problem I see with Nova
Roman gentes is that we are trying to make them into
something they (in my opinion) cannot be, in most
cases. At least the current system, in which a
prospective citizen writes to the pater to apply for
gens membership before he can become a citizen, seems
to me to promote this situation. I have seen
proposals for allowing citizens to test the waters a
bit before joining a gens, and that solves a lot of
the problem.

The Reconstructionist view, if I understand it
correctly (and I am not at all certain that I do), is
that current NR gentes are meant to be the foundation
of real-world families. In other words, current gens
members' children would be members of their parents'
gens as part of their parents' familia (or as part of
the pater's famila) within that gens.

In other words, if I had children, they would grow up
as members of gens Corva. I hope I understand this
correctly.

Where all of this falls apart, in my opinion, is the
issue of children, and it is illustrative of why I
prefer the modernist view to what I perceive as the
reconstructionist one.

While I certainly intend to instill in my children a
love of Roman culture and values, they might very well
grow up having no interest whatsoever in Nova Roma.
And, even if they did grow up and want to become a
part of NR, they might very well decide that they
don't want to be Corvi; they would rather be Cassii,
instead, or Licinii, and so on. As I understand it,
they would perfectly free to do this.

In real Rome, the gens a person was born into was his
gens. Yes, he could be adopted into another gens, or
she might marry into another, but overall, people
remained members of the gens into which they were
born. Our children, however, will be free to leave
the gens of their birth at will, or to have no part of
the gens system at all, by not becoming citizens of
Nova Roma, should they so choose.

So the notion of our current gentes being the
foundations of real Roman gentes, with familiae, etc.,
just doesn't wash, with me. In my opinion, our gentes
can never be like true Roman ones, because our
children will not grow up, in most cases, thinking of
themselves first as Nova Romans. They will grow up,
in general, thinking of themselves as French,
American, Argentinian, or whatever. And they will
think of themselves as Thibauts, Smiths, or Torreses
first, rather than Corvi, Cassii, or Licinii.

Right now, Nova Roma is an ideal, given life by many
very dedicated people. It is not necessarily the
reality in which our children will grow up. Maybe,
someday, it will be.

For this reason, I support the idea of the gens system
being adapted more toward the modern age than toward
the ancient one. I know some gentes are run quite
well and successfully along the ancient lines--and I
think that's wonderful! But I would prefer for the
overall organization of it--the assigning of people to
gentes--to be more modern.

Anyway...This has probably aroused the ire of half the
people on this list, and I do apologize. But I saw
the list of someone's opinions of what the flaws of
the gens system are, and I disagreed. I think this
one here is the root issue.

Of course, if I got the reconstructionist notion
wrong, then I have just wasted about 40 minutes of my
time, writing this...(g)

I probably should have had another cup of Earl Grey.

---
Renata Corva

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] on-line dictionary
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:43:57 +0000

Salvete

Could anybody recommend a good on-line English-Portuguese dictionary.
Also an English-Italian.

Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Thanksgiving
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:15:44 -0500

Salve,

Yes thanksgiving is a religious holiday in origin and many Americans still keep it as such.
The early Americans were giving thanks to God for all the good things they had. Today
it is also a day to be around family and friends and eat turkey and watch football on TV.

Here are three web sites that will give a more detailed history of Thanksgiving in America
and contrary to popular belief the first Thanksgiving in America was held in Virginia before the Pilgrims ever left Europe.

www.naplesnews.com/todayneapolitan/d114564a.html
www.night.net/thanksgiving/first-proc.html
www.night.net/thanksgiving/1782proc.html
www.night.net/thanksgiving/kwash-11.html
Vale and Happy Thanksgivings to all in Nova Roma
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] on-line dictionary
From:	"Diana Aventina- Pagan World" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:31:50 +0100

Salve Galerius Peregrinator,

> Could anybody recommend a good on-line English-Portuguese dictionary.
>Also an English-Italian.

Have a look at http://www.freedict.com

It has both English-Portuguese and English-Italian distionaries.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for condidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:03:58 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com escribió:
> In a message dated 11/13/02 3:45:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> salixastur@yahoo.es writes:
>
>
> > there was no excuse for that veto.
> >
> >
>
> IN YOUR OPINION!!!
> Again you are fond of making absolute statements. Well God I think
> you are wrong. Four Senators thought you were wrong, and 87 Nova
> Romans think you are wrong. So I guess it is a tie...
> You did not lift the veto, because you weren't sure that Lucius
> Cornelius wasn't right and it would be bad for Rome. If you were
> sure, you would have.

No. I was sure that Lucius Cornelius was not right. I had no doubt
about that. As I have no doubt now (what happened with the other
senators, Maxime? Only *four* knew that I was wrong? Only the 87
Cornelians? That's not too impressive).

But, even knowing that, I knew that vetoing the use of consular
intercessio would be a bad thing. What would happen if consular
intercessio had to be used in the future to really *protect* the
Constitution of Nova Roma? Would my action be taken as a precedent in
that case?

My decision had nothing to do with Sulla, in fact. I know that this may
come as a surprise to you, but there is some people that have a little
thing called *ethics*.

> I can never be a Tribune, I'm a patrician, but yours is the toughest
> job.
> You have to protect the people from abuse and bad laws against the
> spirit of the Constitution. You did the right thing.

Thank you. But that proposal was not a "bad law".

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for candidates and a question for voters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:29:17 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Renata Corva.

--- "Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com> escribió:
> (Had to reply to this thread, because the subject line has driving me
> batty for days!) :)
>
> I'm probably on the outer fringe of the Modernist view on this gens
> issue. The main problem I see with Nova Roman gentes is that we are
> trying to make them into something they (in my opinion) cannot be, in
> most cases. At least the current system, in which a prospective
> citizen writes to the pater to apply for gens membership before he
> can become a citizen, seems to me to promote this situation. I have
> seen proposals for allowing citizens to test the waters a
> bit before joining a gens, and that solves a lot of the problem.
>
> The Reconstructionist view, if I understand it correctly (and I am
> not at all certain that I do), is that current NR gentes are meant to
> be the foundation of real-world families. In other words, current
> gens members' children would be members of their parents' gens as
> part of their parents' familia (or as part of the pater's famila)
> within that gens.
>
> In other words, if I had children, they would grow up as members of
> gens Corva. I hope I understand this correctly.
>
> Where all of this falls apart, in my opinion, is the issue of
> children, and it is illustrative of why I prefer the modernist view
> to what I perceive as the reconstructionist one.
>
> While I certainly intend to instill in my children a love of Roman
> culture and values, they might very well grow up having no interest
> whatsoever in Nova Roma. And, even if they did grow up and want to
> become a part of NR, they might very well decide that they
> don't want to be Corvi; they would rather be Cassii, instead, or
> Licinii, and so on. As I understand it, they would perfectly free to
> do this.
>
> In real Rome, the gens a person was born into was his gens. Yes, he
> could be adopted into another gens, or she might marry into another,
> but overall, people remained members of the gens into which they were
> born. Our children, however, will be free to leave the gens of their
> birth at will, or to have no part of the gens system at all, by not
> becoming citizens of Nova Roma, should they so choose.
>
> So the notion of our current gentes being the foundations of real
> Roman gentes, with familiae, etc., just doesn't wash, with me. In my
> opinion, our gentes can never be like true Roman ones, because our
> children will not grow up, in most cases, thinking of themselves
> first as Nova Romans. They will grow up, in general, thinking of
> themselves as French, American, Argentinian, or whatever. And they
> will think of themselves as Thibauts, Smiths, or Torreses
> first, rather than Corvi, Cassii, or Licinii.
>
> Right now, Nova Roma is an ideal, given life by many very dedicated
> people. It is not necessarily the reality in which our children will
> grow up. Maybe, someday, it will be.
>
> For this reason, I support the idea of the gens system being adapted
> more toward the modern age than toward the ancient one. I know some
> gentes are run quite well and successfully along the ancient lines--
> and I think that's wonderful! But I would prefer for the
> overall organization of it--the assigning of people to gentes--to be
> more modern.
>
> Anyway...This has probably aroused the ire of half the people on this
> list, and I do apologize. But I saw the list of someone's opinions
> of what the flaws of the gens system are, and I disagreed. I think
> this one here is the root issue.
>
> Of course, if I got the reconstructionist notion wrong, then I have
> just wasted about 40 minutes of my time, writing this...(g)
>
> I probably should have had another cup of Earl Grey.
>
> ---
> Renata Corva

Thank you for expressing your point of view, Renata. Even if I am a
strong supporter of a historically based gens system, and thus believe
that such a system has some merit, I do understand your concerns pretty
well.

Thank you for bringing us back to "Earth, 2002" for a while :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Apologies to Everyone
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:15:13 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, amice optime Scepti.

--- sceptia <sceptia@yahoo.es> escribió:
> Salve Aventina!
>
> First of all, thanks a lot for your supoport, I think being in the
> offcie with you as partner could be a great honor. So in return I say
> to all, vote her!! :-D
>
> And a little question. You say Thanksgiving is not religious, but I
> thought it was. Wasn't the first pray gave by the pilgrims in
> Massachussets to the Christian God in 1623? Something related to
> their harvest, I guess...
> And yes, Europe has no Thankgiving day. In exchange, in Spain we have
> to suffer Christmas day and the most hated holiday... Holy Week!! :(
> You know, more than a half are religious holidays... for an atheist
> sceptic as I am, it is really painful, except for being it a non
> working day. :-D
>
> Vale bene,
>
> L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
> - Candidate to Tribunus Plebis -

There is a lighter side of the Holy Week for us romanophiles, and that
is that every year they put classic Roman films on TV: "Ben Hur" and
the like :-).

But all added up, it would be nice to have a Thanksgiving day. I love
turkey! :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ancient Rome, Cinema, and History
From:	lanius117@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:48:06 EST

Salvete omnes,

For the past 20 years or so I have extremely fascinated with the depiction of
Ancient Rome on the silver screen. I'm sure we have all seen such epics such
as Quo Vadis, Spartacus, Cleopatra, and, more recently, Gladiator. For most
of us these film representations, such as they are, enable us to visualize
what it was like to live at that time. Some critics will say that some of
these films distort history and bear very little resemblance to actual
events. No matter; the images brought to "life" before our eyes attract many
viewers and help to spark an interest in Ancient Rome.

For those of you who would like to know more about the relationship among
Ancient Rome, cinema, and history, I refer you to a book I recently finished:
PROJECTING THR PAST: Ancient Rome, Cinema, and History, by Maria Wyke
(1997), published by Routledge, London. In this book Ms. Wyke uses four case
studies to point out how Italian and American filmmakers have used the
history of Ancient Rome for their own benefit. These are
1) Spartacus: Testing the Strength of
the Body Politic
2) Cleopatra: Spectacles of Seduction
and Conquest
3) Nero: Spectacles of Persecution and
Excess
4) Pompeii: Purging the Sins of the City

It is a very interesting and enlightening book and I recommend it to anyone
who enjoys film studies, Ancient Rome, and/or history.

Vale, respectfully

Gaius Lanius Falco
Acting Praefectus Sodalitas Egressus, Provincia Britannia

Reference:

Wyke, M. 1997. Projecting The Past: Ancient Rome, Cinema, and History.
Routledge, London. 237 pp.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Gens Reform
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:45:03 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Labiene.

--- labienus@novaroma.org escribió:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> Quite a lot has been said about gens reform lately, and many good
> points have been made. The most important, in my opinion, being the
> words of Q Cassius Calvus. "Is the current system so horrible that
> it must be changed in an overnight storm of finger pointing, rather
> than through reasoned calm discussion?" The answer is no. Nothing
> that means so much to so many cives should be rushed. It is a
> subject that requires deliberation and sensitivity.
> I would expect the effort to take at least another five or six months
> of opinion-gathering and careful consideration of options from all
> sides of the issue.
>
> My personal opinion on the issue, which is no more or less important
> than anyone else's opinion, is that some gens reform which recognizes
> the fact that our gentes are only families in the loosest sense of
> the word is desirable.
> The proper objects of pietas are one's actual ancestors, and paternal
> and maternal authority should only extend to one's actual
> descendants. (Nota bene: I include adopted descendants and ancestors
> in there, but only if the adoption involves an actual break with the
> biological family of the adoptee.)
> The recognition of real Nova Roman familiae is therefore primarily a
> religious issue for me. A Res Publica dedicated to the restoration
> of the Religio Romana and the Roman culture--a culture that was
> centered in many ways around the household cult--needs systems which
> recognize and foster the practices of that religion and culture.
>
> And note that it is a fact that the forms of our institutions affect
> how we do things. They set the mood, if you will, for the way that
> Nova Roma functions.
> If our gentes were not defined in the constitution as families, and
> our gens leaders not called patres and matres familias, would the
> members of our various gentes refer to each other as "brother"
> or "sister"? Would they salute their gens leader as "pater"
> or "mater" and act in such a familial manner?
> In like manner, naming our consules "presidents" and our censores
> "secretaries" would substantially change the way in which our
> institutions were viewed and treated.
>
> Now, there is an immense benefit to Nova Roma from the current
> system, namely the feeling of familial bonding that some of our
> gentes enjoy. I do not want to lose this! However, we have also had
> periodic problems as the leaders of our gentes are confused with
> people who have the rights of parents over the members of their
> gentes. Witness Cornelius Consul's strident demands
> for the Mos Maiorum in opposition to the Lex Octavia Salicia. I
> fully believe that it is possible to come up with a system that
> preserves the positive aspects of our current gentes while paying
> heed to the ancient ways.
>
> Additionally, I am quite concerned with the bonds that our cives have
> formed to date. My opponent's point that many people are more than
> comfortable with the status quo does not fall on deaf ears. Any
> reform package *must* take this into account. As M Octavius pointed
> out earlier, I was one of the people working hard to come up with a
> successful compromise during the recent Senate debate over the
> issue. I attempted to incorporate L Sicinius' desire for choice into
> the Cassian proposal's call for history. Further, I
> worked with Q Fabius and Pompeia Cornelia in an effort to retain the
> beneficial aspects of the current system for all of our cives.
>
> None of the packages presented to date is, in my opinion, adequate.
> We need a gens system that fosters community, pays heed to history,
> recognizes religious duties for those that practice the Religio
> Romana without impinging upon our cives' freedom of religion, retains
> the bonds that currently exist among our cives, and steers Nova Roma
> toward Her goal of nationhood. This is a tall order, and it will not
> be achieved quickly or easily. But it *is* a goal worth working for.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus

Once again, illustrissime Fortunate, I have to bow in front of your
reasoning. You have expressed my own feelings better than I could, and
you have even enlightened me in some points.

With all respect due to all involved parties, I think that Fortunatus
and Cassius Calvus are completely right. We have to take a calmer
approach to this issue. We will have time to discuss this issue further
on, perhaps on a more constructive mood.

Fortunate, I sincerely hope that *you* are finally elected consul. I
think that you are exactly the kind of consul Nova Roma needs right
now. In any way, I will be waiting for your next serious proposal for
gens reform (not that I did not like your last proposal on this issue);
I am sure that it will be both calm and reasonable, and that it will
have everyone interests at heart. I would be pretty surprised if I do
not end up defending that future proposal of yours to the limit :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Nerva's Statements / Apologies
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:52:19 -0500 (EST)

Propraetor Nerva;

I accept your apology, although as has been mentioned on this list it
was clumsily worded, and has left in it's wake misunderstanding and a
significant amount of bad feeling in and of itself. However, I know you
personnally, and I accept the meaning of your apology, and I make the
personal determination that the words used were not intended to further
inflame.

That said, I would respectfully remind you, that your abrupt statements
in the past, as evidenced by the response on the Main List, have upset
and insulted many of the Citizens here. If your intention was simply to
gain a significant response, you have certainly been successful.
However, you have diminished, as has been said, your dignity
significantly by so doing. If your intent was to delierently inflame
and upset the Citizens of Nova Roma with your words and thier apparent
source, then I would say that your apology rings hollow.

If your statements have been as a result of other concerns outside of
NR, then as I have chastised others on this net for outbursts / actions
owing to causes other than Nova Roma alone, then I must ask you to
please consider staying off the Main List until you can master these
"knee-jerk" comments and responses.

Your actions against individuals are also suspect in your office of
ProPraetor, and will not soon be forgotten, even though the Honored
Senior Consul has indicated that he is willing to do so. I believe that
as you publicly struck at these people in your "state of mind" at the
time, that at least you owe each one a public and individual apology, as
well as a statement of your restoration of thier former status and
privaledges. While your actions were vetoed. the sting of your intent,
I would suppose, still remains.

I have, in a most forward manner, provided you with a list of
methodolgies to better manage your view of "tensions" within Nova Roma.
May I be just as forward, in suggesting respectfully that you use them,
before your next posting to this list regarding that subject, and
further remember that there are those who attend here who value Nova
Roma highly, as it has been determined by it's Constitution, and we need
no such negative suggestions as you have promulgated to this list.
There are quite enough legitimate cncerns facing the electorate at the
moment.

Enjoy your Holiday Nerva. My best respects to very lovely wife, and may
you return a calmer and more thoughtful gentleman to our midst.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gone and Forgotten
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:48:36 -0500 (EST)

Senator Maximus;

I note that you have in past messages frequently referred to a past
member of Nova Roma, who has chosen to resign his honors herein, (not
once but twice) and who apparently has no further interest in NR.

I respectfully recall to your attention, your statement on this list
some time ago, that anyone resigning from Nova Roma was "Dead."
I objected to that terminolgy at the time, but since you seemed
determined to cling to that description, I will venture to use such
here, for your benefit, and to make clear my points below:

I must wonder then at your attempt to reserect this "Dead" man who has
chosen to cast his creation into the "wilderness of strangers" to sink
or swim at thier whim.

To me, the intents and ideas of this individual no longer matter to this
micronation as this individual has abandoned it and in so doing has done
significant damage to her. In my view we have a group of candidates,
who are certainly capable of making the determination for themselves
that you choose to take from your personal recollections of this man who
has deserted his creation. This while you engage in defaming the
creator who has remained steadfast at his station since the beginning,
and who has served Nova Roma, in his best manner, since it's inception.

Therefore, I must say in retrospect that I much prefer the
forward-looking views of Senators Quintillanus and Labienus than I do of
the backward-looking views using the personally reserected and selective
"thoughts" of a deserter.

Both Senator Quintillianus and Senator Labienus have proven themselves
to be quiet and effective leaders througout thier tenure in Nova Roma.
Senator Quintillianus as an inovator, and as a gentleman able to gather
around him leaders and thoughtful men in thier own right and provide the
necessary direction to let these gentlemen develop his ideas in a full
and complete way to the benefit of NR. But always being here, and
always being available, unlike the "Dead" man to whom you seem to cling.

Senator Labienus has served well as a Praetor, and as an active Senator
for a long period, throughout which he has been instrumental in many of
the past endeavors of both the Senate and Nova Roma proper. I have been
pleased to listen to his sage and politely delivered suggestions on many
occasions, and was thankful that I could rely on his presence. He has
not deserted Nova Roma but has been true to her standards and her
future. He too in my estimation, has the ability to see to the bright
future o Nova Roma, and does not need a "Dead" man's selective and
supposed meanings to guide him.

So, Senator Maximus, while I too, admire your ability as a Roman
Historian and as a shrewd military gamemaster and publisher, I must echo
the concerns of my colleague Magistrate Marinus, from yet another view,
that I believe that the best candidates for this year are the above
gentlemen who are both qualified and who seek the office for the express
purpose of moving Nova Roma forward. You, on the other hand. have
indicated that you want the post to complete a promise previously made.
Further you have stated publicly that you really did not wish to run for
Consul at all. To my mind Senator those statements are not statements
which ease my mind about your candidacy, nor does your stated reason
help me either. You did not complete the promised task as a Consul,
with my stated willingness to assist as your Co-Consul, and you did not
complete your promised task as a Praetor with myself as your assigned
Quaestor, and my again stated williness to help. I fully understand
that you faced certain situations that may have interfered with a
dedication to that promised task, but in my humble view, I must think
that the task which you promised must now pass to another, whose fresh
ideas and fresh proven methodolgy promises a brighter future for Nova
Roma.

We are colleagues in the Senate sir, and we have been friends in the
past, and I hope we will continue so, despite our individual failings
(mine have been stated often enough publicly) and many differences of
opinion, but I fear for this contest, that we find ourselves on opposite
sides of the "river." I have reviewed your ideas as I am wont to do,
and have urged those attributes of which I am aware and which I approve
upon those whom I support, hoping that my few words may, in some small
way, help NR. I do not claim the responsibility for any great
discovery, any great change or any great idea, as many do, but rather I
choose to move slowly and steadfastly for the benefit of NR and support
in my small way those whom I believe show the most promise to her for
the future.

With My Respect and Continued Friendship Honored Sir;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - photo 9
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:44:37 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

A new and exciting contest, offered by Aedilis Plebis
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix:

PHOTO CONTEST

A very simple contest: 10 photos of Roman-era
monuments to recognize.

**********
You can participate by sending an email to
consulromanus@yahoo.com (put “PHOTO” in the subject
line), with your Nova Roma name and the correct
answer.
**********

10 days long one photo will be posted each day. The
photo will contain a whole monument, or a very large
part of it.

Today's new photo (again a little difficult) can be
found at:
http://www.geocities.com/consulromanus/photo.html

Different kind of answers are possible, as shown in
this example:
A photo of the Pantheon can be described as:
Pantheon
Pantheon, Rome
Temple of Agrippa
Pantheon, Italy
Agrippa’s temple (Pantheon)
…
These are all correct answers; just make clear that
you recognize the monument on the photo!

All correct answers will be put together each day, and
my totally innocent two year old neighbour will pick
out a winner at random.

Everyone’s results will be presented each day in a
hit-parade.

*********
Today's winner:
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Congratulations!!

All others who have also submitted a correct answer:
Jullila Sempronia Magna
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus
Caius Tarquitius Saturninus

The correct answer:
Pont Du Gard, aquaduct in southern France.

*********

So participate as much as possible to become the best
and greatest “monument-specialist”!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] USA Thanksgiving
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:55:54 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

Since Nerva has reminded us of the USA Thanksgiving
Holiday in two weeks I wondering something.

Those of us who are Pagan may want to Thank the Roman
Gods on Thanksgiving. In many respects it's a harvest
holiday so I would think that we should remember Ceres
on that day. Ops also comes to mind.

So my question to the list is which Gods do you think
it would be appropiate for Pagans to offer thanks to
on the holiday?

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Serapio and Scipio
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:11:42 -0500 (EST)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

I come forward my friends to speak on behalf of both Serapio and scipio
as they enter the competition for the Honor of holding your appointment
as Magistrates.

Both genetlemen have served in the Sodalitas Egressus ad each hold the
position of Praefectus. Serapio holds the Position of Dominus
Praefectus, for his excellent work in both research for the Egressus,
and in the Egressus Outreach Program. Scipio has introduced and
maintained several very interesting and continuing efforts in Egressus
Outreach. Both are deeply involved in the Land Project in sorting
Citizen suggestions and with thier Scribae are looking into vaious
possble financial possibilities as well as looking into offered land
ideas.

The above is related to ou my friends simply because I believe that
thier past efforts in the above listed areas, indicates an affection for
NR, and a willingness and ability to do more, as well as a declared
desire to be considered for the poitions which are up for Candidates.
Yes, I consider both of these gentlemen to be my friends. I have
willingly offered to visit with Serapio should he be able to come to the
U.S. and I hope to meet both in Europe some time in the future.
However, aside from that, they are oth very hard workers, and they ave ,
in y humble estimation, earned the right to represent you the Citizens
of Nova Roma. They are bright, young, energetic and have excellent
ideas. Serapio has already indcated his very real interest in doing
reseach on the tasks of Quaestors before the election.. I don't believe
from my experience I can make a better recommendation for the office of
Quaestor.

So, with great respect for your excellent selections in the past, and in
recognition of the many honors and very kind and generous support that
you have given and shown to me, I humbly ask for your consideration of
these most deserving candidates for a beginning Magistry.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 11
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:48:21 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?

**********
Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don’t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting “QUIZ”
in the subject line.
**********

Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones…

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, …

The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 10:
1. Name the legendary seven hills of Rome. (Esquilinus
– Palatinus – Aventinus – Capitolinus – Caelius –
Quirinalis – Viminalis)

2. Where was the Roman province of Dacia? (Modern day
Romania)

3. Which Emperor was killed in battle fighting the
Visigoths? (Valens)

4. Who is said to have written the following well
known phrases (one man wrote them all): “Mans sana in
corpore sano”, “Panem et circenses”, “Pecunia non
olet”, “Rara avis”, “Difficile est satiram non
scribere”, … (Decimus Iunius Iuvenalis)

5. How much does MCCCIX mean? (1309)

-----
Points so far:
Julilla Sempronia Magna – 55
Sextus Apollonius Scipio – 54
Titus Labienus Fortunatus – 52
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus – 49
Quintus Lanius Paulinus – 34
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus – 33
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus – 33
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus – 29
Spurius Postumius Tubertus – 27
Marcus Octavius Germanicus – 19
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix – 18
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus – 13
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia – 13
Marcus Arminius Maior – 10
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola – 10
Lithia Cassia – 9
Vivius Ambrosius Caesariensis – 8
Aulus Octavius Serenus – 4

-----

Here are today's questions:

***************

1. How many cohorts were in each legion ?
(10)

2. Which is greater in value: MDXCIX or MDLXXXVIII?
(1599 1588)

3. Which is the strongest cohort in the battle line of
a legion?
(1st Cohort)

4. Which of these Emperors never came to Britain?
- Claudius
- Vespasian
- Galba
- Augustus

5. Which of these is the Roman number 500?
- M
- L
- X
- D

***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman army physicians
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:56:56 +0000 (GMT)

Salve Renata Corva!

> As a side note--Do you have any information on how
> Roman army physicians were paid? Was it by
> stpiendia,
> or byt other means? It is information I would be
> interested in posting on the Sodalitas Medicum list.

I don't have any exact information on physicians. But
since almost all physicians were slaves (mostly
Greeks), they will possibly have been treated as other
slaves. They served their masters, and they could buy
themselves free after some time.

Maybe someone from the Sodalitas Militarium can answer
this (that's why I CC this message to the SodMil
list)...

Vale bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ancient Rome, Cinema, and History
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:40:33 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., lanius117@a... wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> It is a very interesting and enlightening book and I recommend it
to anyone
> who enjoys film studies, Ancient Rome, and/or history.
>
> Vale, respectfully
>
> Gaius Lanius Falco
> Acting Praefectus Sodalitas Egressus, Provincia Britannia
>

Salvete Gai et omnes,

Good to here from my "dad"! Thank you for the information Gai. I just
ordered the book "Projecting the Past" from Chapters.ca and it will
be here in a few days.

I guess that historical innacuracies pop up in many movies about all
the different eras. The only reasonably accurate movie about Rome in
my opinion seems to be Cleopatra with Richard Burton and Elizabeth
Taylor (1963). Still, I believe that these movies are great
stimulators just the same. They helped me as a child to develop a
keen interest in history of Rome as well as the British Empire and
American civil war. For example after watching Caligula hate
Christians(doubt if he even heard of them) and die in front of a
cheering crowd in the arena in the
Robe and Demitrius & The Gladiators, seeing Nero in the Colesseum
(not built till well after his death),
John Wayne using a winchester 73 and colt peace maker early in the
civil war, I would go and hit the books and find out these situations
were false. At least my curiosity was aroused and they often do
generate more interest in history and Rome as Gaius says.

Regards - Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Tiberius Apollonius' essay
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:20:36 +0000 (GMT)

Salve Patricia Cassia!

Unfortunately I cannot give the exact information you
wanted to know. What I did in my essay was simply
translating (as good as possible, knowing that I first
have to translate Latin in Dutch, and then Dutch into
English). I can however answer some of your questions:

> How much did the soldier in the final example make
> per year?

In our example it says he received at the 'stipendium'
of January 257 denarii; with three 'stipendia' this
would mean 771 denarii per year (3084 sestertii).

> Did the 60
> denarii for his slaves represent the cost of the
> slaves themselves, or
> the cost of their upkeep?

I am not quite sure about this, but I guess this money
was some kind of 'rent money' he had to pay to 'use'
the slaves. Tha latin text says: "solvit tesseras
baronum denarios LX". A 'tessera' is known as a
'ticket' (eg. Tessera Frumentaria: ticket used to
receive food); but it is most likely used here in
another meaning.

> The rate of taxes (if that
> is what "payments
> to the public treasury" are) seems very low -- about
> 1.5%. Were
> soldiers taxed at a lower rate than the rest of the
> citizenry?

Not exactly, the "payment to the central treasury" are
his costs, for example new shoes he received, or a
repair to his armour. Such costs were always kept back
from their 'stipendia'. I have no idea at all if
soldiers had to pay taxes, but I think I heard
somewhere before that they did not pay taxes during
their term as a soldier (but I am not at all sure on
this). Maybe someone else here knows more on this?

PS: Thanks to everyone for your positive comments on
my essay! This encourages me to continue, I will try
to write some more soon.

Vale bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] on-line dictionary
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:49:26 +0000

>From: "Diana Aventina- Pagan World" <diana@pandora.be>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] on-line dictionary
>Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:31:50 +0100
>
>Salve Galerius Peregrinator,
>
> >Have a look at http://www.freedict.com
>
>It has both English-Portuguese and English-Italian distionaries.
>
>Vale,
>Diana Moravia Aventina
>

Salve Moravia Aventina, and thank you kindly for the reference.

Actually, I use that site and was hoping for another. I am constantly
looking for words and can't find them listed in those languages, in that
site. But I appreciate it.

Vale

Galerius Peregrinator.

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Serapio and Scipio
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:50:39 -0000

Salvete Senator Audens et omnes,

Well spoken senator. I say amen to that. From what I have seen of
their dedication, hard work and creative ideas, I am sure they will
do their offices proud as you say.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> I come forward my friends to speak on behalf of both Serapio and
scipio
> as they enter the competition for the Honor of holding your
appointment
> as Magistrates.
>
> Both genetlemen have served in the Sodalitas Egressus ad each hold
the
> position of Praefectus. Serapio holds the Position of Dominus
> Praefectus, for his excellent work in both research for the
Egressus,
> and in the Egressus Outreach Program. Scipio has introduced and
> maintained several very interesting and continuing efforts in
Egressus
> Outreach. Both are deeply involved in the Land Project in sorting
> Citizen suggestions and with thier Scribae are looking into vaious
> possble financial possibilities as well as looking into offered land
> ideas.
>
> The above is related to ou my friends simply because I believe that
> thier past efforts in the above listed areas, indicates an
affection for
> NR, and a willingness and ability to do more, as well as a declared
> desire to be considered for the poitions which are up for
Candidates.
> Yes, I consider both of these gentlemen to be my friends. I have
> willingly offered to visit with Serapio should he be able to come
to the
> U.S. and I hope to meet both in Europe some time in the future.
> However, aside from that, they are oth very hard workers, and they
ave ,
> in y humble estimation, earned the right to represent you the
Citizens
> of Nova Roma. They are bright, young, energetic and have excellent
> ideas. Serapio has already indcated his very real interest in doing
> reseach on the tasks of Quaestors before the election.. I don't
believe
> from my experience I can make a better recommendation for the
office of
> Quaestor.
>
> So, with great respect for your excellent selections in the past,
and in
> recognition of the many honors and very kind and generous support
that
> you have given and shown to me, I humbly ask for your consideration
of
> these most deserving candidates for a beginning Magistry.
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] About the future...
From:	"csorik janos" <csorikjanos@hotmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:38:40 +0200

Greetings to the citizens of the great Republic of Rome.

I agree that we should by any means (or lets say almost any means) increse
the income and avoid elections fraud but i do not think that it would be
wise nor productive to ask for a fee to join NR. In a strange way it
remembers me the times of the early empire when welthy greeks, gauls, jews
could become roman citizens just because they could afford it.
Of course now we live in diffrent times with diffrent expectations. However
we must consider our priorities wich in my opinion are:

more publicity - more citizens - and just after that more money --- and in
that order.

As you can see each of them is the direct result of the precedent. In that
ideea we must invest the most of our energy and resources in means of
broadening our nation.
If the number posted on NR home page is correct our current population is
1601, wich is a very small number if we consider the number of the people
interested in Rome. Most of these people would gladly join Nova Roma if they
would now just a little more about us. I think that with a very good
publicity NR could reach a population of 10.000 or so in a couple of years.
But this would mean that we change a little bit our policies regarding the
acceptance of new citizens.

Thank you for your time and please excuse my gramar mistakes ... yes i now
that i have some ...but i do not master english very well yet.

GAIUS MARIUS CRASSUS

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Serapio and Scipio
From:	"Diana Aventina- Pagan World" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:11:27 +0100

Salve Marcus Minucius Audens,

Well said! Serapio and Scipio are indeed hard workers as well fine
gentlemen. I wish them good luck in the election!

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 11 NEW QUESTIONS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:17:12 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

I am sorry... I left some of the answers in the
previous quiz. I have written some new questions (see
below). Once again my excuses.

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?

**********
Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don’t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting “QUIZ”
in the subject line.
**********

Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones…

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, …

The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 10:
1. Name the legendary seven hills of Rome. (Esquilinus
– Palatinus – Aventinus – Capitolinus – Caelius –
Quirinalis – Viminalis)

2. Where was the Roman province of Dacia? (Modern day
Romania)

3. Which Emperor was killed in battle fighting the
Visigoths? (Valens)

4. Who is said to have written the following well
known phrases (one man wrote them all): “Mans sana in
corpore sano”, “Panem et circenses”, “Pecunia non
olet”, “Rara avis”, “Difficile est satiram non
scribere”, … (Decimus Iunius Iuvenalis)

5. How much does MCCCIX mean? (1309)

-----
Points so far:
Julilla Sempronia Magna – 55
Sextus Apollonius Scipio – 54
Titus Labienus Fortunatus – 52
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus – 49
Quintus Lanius Paulinus – 34
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus – 33
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus – 33
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus – 29
Spurius Postumius Tubertus – 27
Marcus Octavius Germanicus – 19
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix – 18
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus – 13
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia – 13
Marcus Arminius Maior – 10
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola – 10
Lithia Cassia – 9
Vivius Ambrosius Caesariensis – 8
Aulus Octavius Serenus – 4

-----

Here are today's questions:

***************

1. Which emperor conquered Armenia and Mesopotamia?

2. What is a 'quincunx' (Roman military)?

3. Who wrote the stories about Philemon and Baucis,
Piramus and Thisbe, Midas and Pan, etc. (full Roman
name)?

4. Which of these Emperors never came to Britain?
- Claudius
- Vespasian
- Galba
- Augustus

5. Which of these is the Roman number 500?
- M
- L
- X
- D

***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

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Subject:	Re: Sestertius etc. (was:Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: An essay for everyone to enjoy!)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:10:40 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gnaeus Octavius Noricus <cn.octavius.noricus@gmx.at>
>
>I have read that the Dollar sign is (more or less) directly derived from HS (sestertius): Just superimpose H and S - You arrive at something like a “S“ with two vertical strokes ($).
>
That does make a bit more sense. Pity they didn't call it Sesterce as well, though possibly so many other Dollars have come about in imitation. S for Shilling incidently, has nothing to do with Sestertius (or probably with Shilling). It's likely Constantine's Solidus and the later French Sol or Sou, before we get on to that one as well.
Vibius.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] USA Thanksgiving
From:	Jenny Harris <J.Harris@awgais.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:46:05 -0700

Salve,

I'd have to agree with you Propraetor Sicinius, and also add the suggestion
of Vesta .

Vale,
Aeternia

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus [mailto:lsicinius@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:56 AM
To: Nova Roma
Subject: [Nova-Roma] USA Thanksgiving

Salvete Quirites,

Since Nerva has reminded us of the USA Thanksgiving
Holiday in two weeks I wondering something.

Those of us who are Pagan may want to Thank the Roman
Gods on Thanksgiving. In many respects it's a harvest
holiday so I would think that we should remember Ceres
on that day. Ops also comes to mind.

So my question to the list is which Gods do you think
it would be appropiate for Pagans to offer thanks to
on the holiday?

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's
hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman movies
From:	lanius117@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:59:13 EST

Salve, Diana

Sounds like a nice addition to your website. Currently I am working on a
list of films that portray ancient Rome in some way. Details will include
title, director, the top two actors, year of release, and any Academy Award
nominations. Due to the length of the list (plus the fact I have not seen
most of these films) I have decided not to do reviews. Perhaps we could
collaborate on a piece for the Sodalitas Musarum. What do you think?

Vale,

Gaius Lanius Falco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: USA Thanksgiving
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:59:22 -0000

Salve

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:

> So my question to the list is which Gods do you think
> it would be appropiate for Pagans to offer thanks to
> on the holiday?

I don't see why not. Christianity hardly holds the "patent" on the
concept of a communal celebration to thank the communties Diety(ies).

One of the symbols of the Thanksgiving Season is the cornucopia. The
original cornucopia was a curved goat's horn filled to overflowing
with fruit and grain. It symbolizes the horn possessed by Zeus's
nurse, the Greek nymph Amalthaea, which could be filled with whatever
the owner wished.

Ceres would be a good choice for the followers of the Religio, Vesta
comes to mind, the household Penates. I'm sure those who have
a "working relationship" with the Religio will come up with more than
I who only maintains a "scholarly relationship" in respect to the
Religio.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Gnaeus Salix Astur for Praetor!
From:	"sceptia" <sceptia@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:02:12 -0000

Furthermore, Aventina, I must say that I know quite well Astur, and
he is one of the most active and intelligent citizens I have ever
known.
Astur mentored me and explained everything when I got to Nova Roma.
Astur's job has been so impressive that in the new Consilium that
helps our Propraetor we couldn't say anything but praise words.
Improving Nova Roma requires, as any other Nation, being micro or
macro, changes. And changes can be done just in the very moment that
a blocking system shows its own futility. Ancient Rome took many
things from the countrys, peoples and cultures they meet. The Gladio
were from Hispania, the pteridges, greek, helmet, mixing greek and
gaul, chain armor, celt, Gods, taken from every single culture they
meet (To congraciate with them), and assimilation is at last the key
to the roman culture... taking always the best of "the others" they
showed no conservative manners but progresist.
Gn. Salix Astur is a roman and a nova roman... and he deserves the
office of Praetor. I strongly recomend him for it. Won't be
dissapointed, citizen. :-)

Vale bene,

L Didius Geminus Sceptius.
- Legatus Externis Rebus Hispaniae Provinciae -
- Praeceptor Academiae Thules -
- Decurio Hispano -

**Candidate to Tribunus Plebis**

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Diana Aventina- Pagan World" <diana@p...>
wrote:
> Salvete colleagues,
>
> Even though there are some excellent candidates for the position
of Praetor
> in this year's election, I would like to offer my support for
Gnaeus Salix
> Astur. Basically, he is one of the finest Nova Romans I have ever
known. He
> is obviously intelligent, has some excellent ideas to improve Nova
Roma and
> is a very hard worker.
>
> Surely this micronation will be a better place with Gnaeus Salix
Astur as
> Praetor!
>
> Valete,
> Diana Moravia Aventina
>
>
>
> Quintilianus for Consul!
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
> Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
> Serapio for Quaestor!
> http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
> Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman movies
From:	"Diana Aventina- Pagan World" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:25:13 +0100

Salve Gaius Lanius Falco,

Thanks for the book tip! It's a nice coincidence that you posted on Roman
movies, because I have had Roman movies on my mind a lot these last few
days. I am in the process of making a page for my website with reviews of
Roman movies

I've already written the reviews for Spartacus, Cleopatra, Caligula, and the
Gladiator, but if anyone would like to write a review for any movies that I
am missing (Quo Vadis for example), feel free to send it to me at
diana@pandora.be Even reviews of movies such as Ben Hur and the Robe are
welcomed. Basically if Rome is part of the story, I'll include it.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Gone but not Forgotten
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:42:05 EST

In a message dated 11/14/02 10:51:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jmath669642reng@webtv.net writes:
> I respectfully recall to your attention, your statement on this list
> some time ago, that anyone resigning from Nova Roma was "Dead."
> I objected to that terminolgy at the time, but since you seemed
> determined to cling to that description, I will venture to use such
> here, for your benefit, and to make clear my points below:
>
> I must wonder then at your attempt to reserect this "Dead" man who has
> chosen to cast his creation into the "wilderness of strangers" to sink
> or swim at thier whim.
>

That's funny, proconsul. My dead comment at that time was to point out that
"dead" men could not testify in a hearing. To hear it spoken about Flavius
Vedius Germanicus is, I think,
disrespectful.
Where would we all be right now without Vedius' vision? I'd probably be
involved in Cassius' Iullian society which was the basis of the original Nova
Roma but that is all.
True, he resigned once during our formation because he had a vision from his
Germanic gods so seeing this he told us he could no longer be involved, since
he could not follow his own oath.
The second time was the father of his country award, which he saw as a token
to keep him silent of his protests. I certainly felt he deserved it, he saw
it as a sop so he wouldn't complain much while the liberals dismantled his
organization. While there might be some truth in that, I think he was just
lashing out at his former friends that had abandoned him in his hour of need.
Vedius was a high strung individual. Most people of vision are. It was
unfortunate that he left us in the lurch, but that is also a trait of the
genius. It then falls to us calm and placid types to do the heavy lifting.

To use an analogy here, Marcus Municius, let's say Benedict Arnold had
invented a labor saving device for your beloved navy. Then he gives up West
Point to the British. Do we abandon his device because he is a traitor?

A good example of this was Hardy's Infantry Tactics the drill book of the US
Army before the American Civil War. The Union did not like the fact that the
author was now a Major General in the Confederate Army of Mississippi. So
they had Brig. Gen. Silas Casey rewrite it, so they could now call it Casey's
Infantry Tactics.

People who know me in real life know I, Stephen Phenow am a liberal. I'm a
Democrat and we got our ass kicked in last Tuesday's election except here in
CA. For some reason we Demos swept all the offices. But then CA has always
been a step out of sync with the United States.

So why I'm a Roman conservative? Consider what we are trying to do here. We
are trying to bring an ancient Republic back to life, in a time when such a
vision is pretty antiquated.
But I disagree. I believe we can exist in this 21st century as intact as we
were in the 3rd cent BC. I believe the Roman message Gods, Country, Duty,
Honor has validity today.
Romans themselves were conservative. They disliked change. It follows if
you have change, it should be implemented slowly, and carefully. Not slam it
home, no matter what the consequences. How could the republic survive her
many setbacks, otherwise? Not if she changed to a new policy everytime she
lost. Stability is important.

I offer the voters a conservative choice. Though my "enemies" claim I'm
against change, I am not. I am against rapid change and poorly unwarranted
change. I want our changes to be good ones, not ones done just for change
sakes, to modernize Rome. We become just like any other nation when that
happens, and do we want that?

As for me lacking vision, I wanted to finance Nova Roma's land growth by
building a theme park. That to me is vision. NR's status would not allow
it, however. Too bad that was the case.

Thank you again for allowing me to express my views.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gnaeus Salix Astur for Praetor!
From:	"Diana Aventina- Pagan World" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:32:40 +0100

Salvete colleagues,

Even though there are some excellent candidates for the position of Praetor
in this year's election, I would like to offer my support for Gnaeus Salix
Astur. Basically, he is one of the finest Nova Romans I have ever known. He
is obviously intelligent, has some excellent ideas to improve Nova Roma and
is a very hard worker.

Surely this micronation will be a better place with Gnaeus Salix Astur as
Praetor!

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina

Quintilianus for Consul!
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor!
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] dictionary
From:	Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

http://www.freetranslation.com
is also good.

Arnamentia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Gone but not Forgotten
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:41:41 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Fabi,

> The second time was the father of his country award, which he saw as a token
> to keep him silent of his protests. I certainly felt he deserved it, he saw
> it as a sop so he wouldn't complain much while the liberals dismantled his
> organization.

I never knew he perceived it as such.

It was a legitimate honor that I had been planning for months before becoming
Consul, and long before the conflict that eventually caused his departure began.

> Vedius was a high strung individual. Most people of vision are. It was
> unfortunate that he left us in the lurch, but that is also a trait of the
> genius. It then falls to us calm and placid types to do the heavy lifting.

I like to think that our two Patres Patriae were the equivalents of
Romulus and Numa Pompilius; one bold and aggressive, the other calm
and wise.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for candidates and a question for voters
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:11:29 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “Chantal G. Whittington“ <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
>
>For this reason, I support the idea of the gens system
>being adapted more toward the modern age than toward
>the ancient one. I know some gentes are run quite
>well and successfully along the ancient lines--and I
>think that's wonderful! But I would prefer for the
>overall organization of it--the assigning of people to
>gentes--to be more modern.
>
This has to be taken into account. If there ever is a New Rome, it will be in a modern context, not some Amish-like reversion. It could not be both for practical hygiene/medical and safety reasons and in a very obvious respect, how much Latin appears on this list? Rome depended on slave labour. The only way to reproduce that freedom for citizens today is by some form of automation combined with compulsory State service in small doses, perhaps for a probationary couple of pre-citizenship years and it would need to be orgainsed on a communal basis.
The Gens system was fine for a small city-state, as was its government. Both were unable to cope with expansion even into Italy. What would it mean for a gens member from Sicily to retire to Cologne? Where would descendents fit in? It would be similar to the distant relatives across the Atlantic and Pacific of modern times. By the 3rd century the old Praenomen-Nomen system has fallen out of practical use. There is certainly good reason to keep affiliations but to restore the entire cultural basis, as far as anybody wants to restore absolute power of life and death or irate fathers hauling their consul sons from the Senate for a beating, nobody wants to and that would be only absurd false reconstruction.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The "S" Word
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:59:02 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

It must be election time! I Can tell because the "S"
word is starting to show up more often.

Slavery.

It seems that every time a Comitia meets some
modernists drag out thier favorite strawman the "S"
word, with accusations that the Reconstructists want
to introduce slavery into our Res Publica. No mention
is made of just WHO favors slavery. Nothing to back up
the absurd claim, just an emotion laden word in place
of a rational argument.

Slavery existed in Antiquita so the Reconstructionists
have to be in favor of it! A wild charge that ignores
that no one has called for slavery.

Here's an example that is equally absurd. Mussalini
called his government the new Roman Empire, so anyone
who favors a Modern Nova Roma favors a facist
dictatorship.

Facist? Slavery?
Two emotion laden words for those who are unable to
offer a rational argument to support thier views.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Gnaeus Salix Astur for Praetor!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:47:55 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Diana.

--- Diana Aventina- Pagan World <diana@pandora.be> escribió:
> Salvete colleagues,
>
> Even though there are some excellent candidates for the position of
> Praetor in this year's election, I would like to offer my support for
> Gnaeus Salix Astur. Basically, he is one of the finest Nova Romans I
> have ever known. He is obviously intelligent, has some excellent
> ideas to improve Nova Roma and is a very hard worker.
>
> Surely this micronation will be a better place with Gnaeus Salix
> Astur as Praetor!
>
> Valete,
> Diana Moravia Aventina

Thank you very much for your kind words, Diana. If I get elected, I
will try to work as hard as possible to avoid disappointing you! :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Mosaics of Ancient Rome
From:	lanius117@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:58:49 EST

Salvete omnes,

One of the greatest treasures we still have the privilege of observing and
enjoying are the many mosaics made throughout the Roman world. Even though
mosaics did not begin with Romans, they brought this art form to such a high
level of craftsmanship and beauty that it is associated with them. More
examples of mosaics exist today than any other form of Roman art. They can
be found across the span of the former Roman Empire. Mosaics can tell us
about how the Romans lived, loved, and made war. We appreciate them for the
history they provide, and some of us simply are spellbound by their artistic
excellence. Roman mosaicists had a flair for combining color, shading, and
composition in their work; we should consider ourselves fortunate that so
many examples remain with us today.

As you may have guessed by now, one of my Roman passions is mosaics. I would
like to share that passion with you. Attached to this email is a list of
websites where you can view ancient Roman mosaics, learn how to make a mosaic
yourself, and find out more in general about mosaics. Peruse these websites
at your leisure; discover the fascinating treasure that awaits you. Perhaps
you will be inspired to try your own hand at recreating a little bit of
ancient Rome!

Vale, respectfully

Gaius Lanius Falco
Acting Praefectus Sodalitas Egressus, Provincia Britannia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]