| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:06:00 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Scepti.
--- sceptia <sceptia@yahoo.es> escribió:
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Citizens, I have heard many differente voices claiming for a Gens
> Reform and against it. I'd like to say that I have cleared my mind,
> but it is as dark as night.
>
> I think we need a reform, yes. What way? I ask to those who reject it
> or support it. I think present system doesn't work properly if denys
> individuals to change from Gens to Gens. Actually, I think voting
> system is a mess in many ways. So, humbly, and be conscious that I'm
> running for being one of the five Tribunus Plebis, I ask those
> implied on the gens reform. What is the goal? How can we get it?
>
> Bitter answers of illustrous Fabius Maximus, who replied me privately
> when I thought it necessary, and combative reasonings of Salix Astur,
> have made me think of what the problem is. What is the core problem?
The core problem is that we currently have a gens system that creates
many problems (like delays in citizenship applications, for example)
and that is not even historically accurate. The objective is to reform
our system while keeping its current virtues. I sincerely believe that
a system closer to the Roman historical model (like the one proposed in
the Cassius/Labienus proposal) would attain that goal. And, since we
are here to bring back "the best of Rome", I think that such a solution
would be extremely appropriate.
> As far as Maximus and Astur are running for important offices, and
> Maximus put the finger on the Religion problem and Astur on Judicial
> System, seems that Astur's views are more worried about Gens Reform
> than Maximus's. As a voter, that gave my a slight idea of who is
> working for the growing of the Republic and who for his own power
> manteinance.
>
> As Tribunus Plebis, if I were elected, I wouldn't use my intercessio
> right if a Gens Reform were done in clear terms and favourizing real
> democracy. And I would use it if a Gens Reform were done in dark
> wills of manteining or creating oligarchical powers.
>
> Of course, as Salix Astur has said, I do would use intercessio if he
> is trying to make the second possibility, because I don't mind who,
> but what he or she is trying to do.
Your duty as a tribunus plebis would be to protect the rights of the
citizens of Nova Roma. If a certain legislative proposal goes against
the rights of the citizens of Nova Roma, then you should certainly veto
it.
> So I have exposed my doubts. I wait mainly from candidates an answer.
>
> A clear, simple, directly done answer. And I recognize Honesty when I
> see it.
I hope that you find my answer clear enough. If you don't, please tell
me and I will try to do it better :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:18:28 -0000 |
|
Salve,
Three fire extinguishers? I hope you aren't that careless with
fire! Ok, time to be serious.
This is a completely strawman attack. I am surprised that you ignore
the real substance here, being fund the Census laws. Or maybe I'm
not so surprised. After all with a funded Census the problem of
inactive mater/paters goes away and one of the most poignant reasons
for the gens reform goes away with it. That would rip a mighty big
hole in some political factional platforms now wouldn't it?
Where was I before I began to go off on a tangent. Oh yes. I would
think that a candidate (even an unopposed one) for Censor would think
that funding the Census is a greater priority than changing a gens
system that has somehow managed to function since the inception of
Nova Roma. The Census laws on the other hand have not functioned
since their inception. My opinion is either fund the Census laws as
they are or abolish/amend them and replace them with Census laws that
can be funded at a lesser drain on the public purse.
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > The Edictum Censoribus de Libertate Gentilium takes care of the
> > problem of people being stuck in a gens they don't wish to be a
part.
> > Since the enactment of that Edict I don't know of any cases of
gens
> > changing occuring. Which kind of begs the question,
> > "Was there really a problem to be solved?"
>
> I have three fire extinguishers in my house, for which I paid about
> thirty dollars each... yet I've never had a fire! Were they a waste
> of money?
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
> Candidate for Censor 2756:
> http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:24:26 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
In regards to funding the Census there will be a line item in the budget for the funding of the Census. I have personally requested it to be $300.00. Since we do not have a benchmark to go on I think it would be a good estimate to start off with. The most expensive form of communication (phone calls) can be the last form of contact used. If the costs exceed the $300, there is always the Senatus Consultum on requesting reimbursement that can be utilized to cover overages.
Very Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:18 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best
Salve,
Three fire extinguishers? I hope you aren't that careless with
fire! Ok, time to be serious.
This is a completely strawman attack. I am surprised that you ignore
the real substance here, being fund the Census laws. Or maybe I'm
not so surprised. After all with a funded Census the problem of
inactive mater/paters goes away and one of the most poignant reasons
for the gens reform goes away with it. That would rip a mighty big
hole in some political factional platforms now wouldn't it?
Where was I before I began to go off on a tangent. Oh yes. I would
think that a candidate (even an unopposed one) for Censor would think
that funding the Census is a greater priority than changing a gens
system that has somehow managed to function since the inception of
Nova Roma. The Census laws on the other hand have not functioned
since their inception. My opinion is either fund the Census laws as
they are or abolish/amend them and replace them with Census laws that
can be funded at a lesser drain on the public purse.
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > The Edictum Censoribus de Libertate Gentilium takes care of the
> > problem of people being stuck in a gens they don't wish to be a
part.
> > Since the enactment of that Edict I don't know of any cases of
gens
> > changing occuring. Which kind of begs the question,
> > "Was there really a problem to be solved?"
>
> I have three fire extinguishers in my house, for which I paid about
> thirty dollars each... yet I've never had a fire! Were they a waste
> of money?
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
> Candidate for Censor 2756:
> http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:28:25 -0000 |
|
Salve,
As much as it pains me, a Cassian, to actually publically thank not
just a Cornelian but >>>the<<< Cornelian <GRIN> I do thank you for
that information, Sulla.
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> In regards to funding the Census there will be a line item in the
budget for the funding of the Census. I have personally requested it
to be $300.00. Since we do not have a benchmark to go on I think it
would be a good estimate to start off with. The most expensive form
of communication (phone calls) can be the last form of contact
used. If the costs exceed the $300, there is always the Senatus
Consultum on requesting reimbursement that can be utilized to cover
overages.
>
> Very Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] US thanksgiving |
| From: |
Joanne Shaver <merlinia@comcast.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:31:23 -0500 |
|
Salvete, all! Merlinia Ambrosia here, sending Greetings.
More weird stuff has been attached to the US Thanksgiving holiday than
just about anything else.
President Lincoln started it, setting the 4th Thurs. in Nov.as
a day to give thanks for The End Of The War Between The States, or Civil
War, or whatever you wish to call it.
Then, some Dude painted a picture of ' the first Thanksgiving',
using a vignette from the Pilgrims of Mass. Bay Colony records,and away
it went.
(the Indians ate deer & succotash, and had never even heard of apples,
let alone apple pie)
Valete!
-M.
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:34:58 -0800 |
|
LOL! Thank you very much!
And thats not all I am working on. I am hoping by the end of this weeked to have an edict promulgated establishing a Temple Fund and being partically funded from our gross revenue (2% to be precise). This will co-exist with the land fund that we currently have. Also, citizens will be able to donate money specifically to the Temple fund as well, if they so desire.
Vale,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 4:28 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best
Salve,
As much as it pains me, a Cassian, to actually publically thank not
just a Cornelian but >>>the<<< Cornelian <GRIN> I do thank you for
that information, Sulla.
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> In regards to funding the Census there will be a line item in the
budget for the funding of the Census. I have personally requested it
to be $300.00. Since we do not have a benchmark to go on I think it
would be a good estimate to start off with. The most expensive form
of communication (phone calls) can be the last form of contact
used. If the costs exceed the $300, there is always the Senatus
Consultum on requesting reimbursement that can be utilized to cover
overages.
>
> Very Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:42:31 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Cassi Calve.
--- quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com> escribió:
<<snipped>>
> Gens Reform can wait, a funding for a real Census can not.
I personally think that *both* are pretty important issues. If you
don't mind, I would like to say a few things about the Census.
A Census would be an excellent tool for a more accurate knowledge of
Nova Roma's real citizenry, which in turn could be used to improve the
service provided by the government of Nova Roma to the citizenry. So I
am completely in favour of a Census.
The problem is that our current censores can not be blamed for not
bringing the Census in due time. Have you read our current census law?
It requires the censores to actually send snail mail letters and to
make phone calls. Nova Roma's citizenry is spread all around the globe.
Can you imagine the phone bill? I am not sure if the amount held in the
aerarium publicum (Nova Roma's treasury) would be enough to pay such an
expense.
So, what can we do? I think that we have to change the census law to
make it less expensive. Perhaps involving our provincial
administrations would be a good idea.
Anyway, it will take some time. But I promise you that, after the
elections, I will dedicate some time to this issue. I also would like
to have a national census next year.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:01:25 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Sulla.
--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> escribió:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> In regards to funding the Census there will be a line item in the
> budget for the funding of the Census. I have personally requested it
> to be $300.00. Since we do not have a benchmark to go on I think it
> would be a good estimate to start off with. The most expensive form
> of communication (phone calls) can be the last form of contact used.
> If the costs exceed the $300, there is always the Senatus Consultum
> on requesting reimbursement that can be utilized to cover overages.
>
> Very Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul
I would like to review your estimate cost, if you don't mind.
Let's see; Nova Roma has around 1,400 citizens. Of those, around 600
(I am being pretty optimistic here) will probably answer the census
normally, thus requiring no further expenses.
Of the remaining 800, some will answer the snail mail letter, and some
won't. Let's put it in a 50%, which is a pretty optimistic prespective
as well. Of those 400, around a 25% (a low amount) will live outside
the U.S. That will mean that each letter will cost, I don't know, one
US dollar? That gives us a 100 US$ expense, and we are not counting
those inside the U.S. For those 300, let's say that each letter costs
25 cents. That gives us 75 US$. So we have spent 175 US$, and we
haven't began with phone calls yet.
On the remaining 400, we have already spent 175 US$ in letters, so we
have a total of 350 US$. Now we begin with phone calls. A phone call
within the U.S. will cost, I don't know, half a dollar? That would give
us a 150 US$ "local" expense, for a 75% US residents. How much can cost
an intercontinental phone call? 2 dollars? Well, that gives us an
amount of 200 US$ expense in intercontinental calls. The total amount
is 700 US$, which is slightly higher than 300 US$, and I am being VERY
conservative in my numbers. The actual amount could be much, much
higher.
I don't know which is the actual amount held in the aerarium, but I
believe that it is not much over 2,000 US$. That means that a cheap
census following our current rules would cost about a 35% of our
budget. A 35%! Which nation can afford a census at such a price?
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
_______________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:07:34 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve Quinte Cassi,
> Three fire extinguishers? I hope you aren't that careless with
> fire! Ok, time to be serious.
One for the kitchen... one for the room at the opposite end, where I burn
incense... and one for out back, where I deep-fry whole turkeys.
> This is a completely strawman attack. I am surprised that you ignore
> the real substance here, being fund the Census laws. Or maybe I'm
> not so surprised. After all with a funded Census the problem of
> inactive mater/paters goes away and one of the most poignant reasons
> for the gens reform goes away with it. That would rip a mighty big
> hole in some political factional platforms now wouldn't it?
Inactive patres/matres are only one of several problems the reform was
intended to address; the "hole" ripped in the platform is insignificant.
The other problems are the difficult of leaving a gens (temporarily
solved by the Censores' edict, which I will renew and extend in
January), the lock on famous names by individuals whose only claim to
it is that they arrived slightly earlier, the loss of name that would
come with expulsion from a gens, and the complete lack of any resemblance
to historical reality that our current system has.
> Where was I before I began to go off on a tangent. Oh yes. I would
> think that a candidate (even an unopposed one) for Censor would think
> that funding the Census is a greater priority than changing a gens
> system that has somehow managed to function since the inception of
> Nova Roma.
Changing the system will not be something that is within my power
next year, as I will not be able to propose laws. The best I can do
is encourage the Consuls to do so.
Inactive patresfamilias are a very small problem, and as Censor, I intend
to use the registration and census laws to alleviate this somewhat - even
though it will be a case of treating the symptom and ignoring the disease.
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:12:21 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve,
> And thats not all I am working on. I am hoping by the end of this weeked to
> have an edict promulgated establishing a Temple Fund and being partically
> funded from our gross revenue (2% to be precise).
Point of law, Consul! The Senate has complete control of the treasury,
and Consuls cannot issue edicts that control how the money is used. The
most we can do is ask the Senate to allocate money toward such a fund.
Having said that, however, I do think it's a good idea and will vote in
favor of it when you propose it to the Senate.
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] My questions: Thanks |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:14:08 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Greetings all, and apologies for my absence of several
days.
Many thanks to all those candidates who answered my
questions. Yes, it was correctly pointed out that
there were actually two questions - apologies for my
poor arithmetic, and for my misspelling of
'candidates' in the subject line, which was also
mentioned. I believe we have yet to hear Senator
Maximus' 'yes or no' answer to the question 'would you
veto the bill if it were put again this coming year?',
so I shall look forward to that.
My further thanks to all those who expressed views on
the general issue of gens reform. It is an issue in
which I have a small interest. I considered applying
for citizenship about a year ago, and, conceiving a
desire to be a Sempronius (I'm a fan of C. Sempronius
Gracchus and of the earlier Sempronius who wrote a
commentary on constitutional practice), I tried to
contact the paterfamilias. Talking to various people,
I heard that he was AWOL, and that as the gens was
closed, there was nothing anyone could do to help me
join it. I was disheartened and lost interest. It is
true that I renewed my interest a few months ago and
have re-applied for a different gens, but this could
very nearly not have happened, and I just wonder how
many potential citizens have been lost for this
reason.
I'm slightly disappointed to have had no answers at
all to the question of whether those who intend to
withold their taxes will be using their votes. Perhaps
we may cheerfully take this to mean that those people
have changed their minds, and there is now no one to
answer the question. :)
So, thanks again, and I hope Consul Sulla is pleased
that I inadvertently generated some of the debate he
asked for.
Jamie
=====
www.strategikon.org
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:13:26 -0800 (PST) |
|
--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
SNIP
>
> The core problem is that we currently have a gens
> system that creates
> many problems (like delays in citizenship
> applications, for example)
> and that is not even historically accurate. The
> objective is to reform
> our system while keeping its current virtues. I
> sincerely believe that
> a system closer to the Roman historical model (like
> the one proposed in
> the Cassius/Labienus proposal) would attain that
> goal. And, since we
> are here to bring back "the best of Rome", I think
> that such a solution
> would be extremely appropriate.
DRUSUS: It's fairly easy to suport the secrective
Cassius/Labienus proposal since no one outside the
Senate has the slightest idea exactly what is in that
proposal. For all any of us know the Junior Consul
vetoed it over a clause that the Paterfamilis of
Cornelia have a steak driven through his heart. ;o)
Simply stating support for a proposal that few of us
have seen tells the voters nothing about what you are
actualy supporting.
I Favor a system where each Gens has the option of
continuing with the present ahistoric system or of
moving to a more historic model. Being a
Reconstructionist I personaly favor a historic model,
and hope that all our Gens choose that option, but I
insist that the choice be placed in the hands of the
Gens, not the state. Our current Gens may be
ahistoric, but so is a lex that puts the state in the
postion of making organizational decesions at the Gens
and Family level.
>
SNIP
>
> Your duty as a tribunus plebis would be to protect
> the rights of the
> citizens of Nova Roma. If a certain legislative
> proposal goes against
> the rights of the citizens of Nova Roma, then you
> should certainly veto
> it.
>
This is incorrect. The duties of the historic office
of Tribune were to protect the rights of the Plebs.
For better or worse the Nova Roman office differs from
the historic office. Here the duties of the Tribunes
are to insure that actions do not violate the
Constitution or Laws of Nova Roma, Not to protect
unnamed "rights" or to attempt to limit a Consuls
right to make policy decesions. A Tribune may think a
Consuls proposal is the dumbest idea in the history of
Nova Roma, if he attempts to Veto that proposal on any
grounds other than a violation of the Constitution or
the Law then he has exceeded the authority of his
office and violated his oath.
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:20:43 +0000 (GMT) |
|
L. Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> DRUSUS: It's fairly easy to suport the secrective
> Cassius/Labienus proposal since no one outside the
> Senate has the slightest idea exactly what is in
> that
> proposal.
My memory may be faulty, but I believe it was this
proposal which was shown verbatim on the main list
soon after the veto was imposed.
I am certain I've seen it, and I can't think where
else it would have been, since I'm not on any other NR
e-mail lists and am not in touch with anyone who was
involved in the bill, so far as I know.
Jamie
=====
www.strategikon.org
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:16:23 -0800 |
|
I am aware. :)
You and I also have talked about this off the list and this is why I have not promulgated any edict in regards to it. I am soley waiting for the Senate to be summoned so it too can be presented as well.
Vale,
Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best
Salve,
> And thats not all I am working on. I am hoping by the end of this weeked to
> have an edict promulgated establishing a Temple Fund and being partically
> funded from our gross revenue (2% to be precise).
Point of law, Consul! The Senate has complete control of the treasury,
and Consuls cannot issue edicts that control how the money is used. The
most we can do is ask the Senate to allocate money toward such a fund.
Having said that, however, I do think it's a good idea and will vote in
favor of it when you propose it to the Senate.
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:30:25 -0800 |
|
Avete Tribune,
Certainly you can review this. Here is how I would conduct the Census, if I was still Censor.
First you subtract those citizens who pay the tax.
Second you subtract those citizens who voted in the December Election (this election).
Third you subtract those Paters who responded to the yearly registration.
Fourth you subtract those citizens who came in during the calender year.
This takes out about 600 people (maybe more considering the new citizen numbers). But for safety sake we will say 600 people are removed, leaving 1000 left to be "counted."
First thing I would do would be to set up a page on the website and advertise on the ML for all citizens to go there and verify their citizenship. (this complies with Section E of the Lex Cornelia.).
Second thing I would do is the bulk email. To all citizens who have failed to respond to the Census request. Give that about a or two week(s) to give people enough time to respond. Then filter out the names who responded and do a second bulk email. With the mass mailing that went out with our new voter codes we have already gotten at least 3 resignations.
Third, I would request the assistance of all active Paterfamili in having them get in touch with their gens members. Since most Paterfamili should have some contact information on their gens members, this would be a convinent way to save money.
I would hope that by utilizing these measures most of our citizens will be reached. However, it is very likely given the numbers that not all of them will be contacted. Then we can get into the bulk surface mail. And as a last resort phone calls. Again, if the cost of the census exceeds the budget the Senate has already approved a reimbursement procedure.
I freely recognize that this first census will be the most expensive and the worst considering we have never done a Census before. However, once the first Census is completed all future census counts will be alot easier because we will have experience to build on and most likely a smaller number of citizens.
Personally, I only see Nova Roma having maybe 700-800 citizens total. I expect to see the number on the Album Civium drop dramatically once the Census is properly done.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best
Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Sulla.
--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> escribió:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> In regards to funding the Census there will be a line item in the
> budget for the funding of the Census. I have personally requested it
> to be $300.00. Since we do not have a benchmark to go on I think it
> would be a good estimate to start off with. The most expensive form
> of communication (phone calls) can be the last form of contact used.
> If the costs exceed the $300, there is always the Senatus Consultum
> on requesting reimbursement that can be utilized to cover overages.
>
> Very Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Consul
I would like to review your estimate cost, if you don't mind.
Let's see; Nova Roma has around 1,400 citizens. Of those, around 600
(I am being pretty optimistic here) will probably answer the census
normally, thus requiring no further expenses.
Of the remaining 800, some will answer the snail mail letter, and some
won't. Let's put it in a 50%, which is a pretty optimistic prespective
as well. Of those 400, around a 25% (a low amount) will live outside
the U.S. That will mean that each letter will cost, I don't know, one
US dollar? That gives us a 100 US$ expense, and we are not counting
those inside the U.S. For those 300, let's say that each letter costs
25 cents. That gives us 75 US$. So we have spent 175 US$, and we
haven't began with phone calls yet.
On the remaining 400, we have already spent 175 US$ in letters, so we
have a total of 350 US$. Now we begin with phone calls. A phone call
within the U.S. will cost, I don't know, half a dollar? That would give
us a 150 US$ "local" expense, for a 75% US residents. How much can cost
an intercontinental phone call? 2 dollars? Well, that gives us an
amount of 200 US$ expense in intercontinental calls. The total amount
is 700 US$, which is slightly higher than 300 US$, and I am being VERY
conservative in my numbers. The actual amount could be much, much
higher.
I don't know which is the actual amount held in the aerarium, but I
believe that it is not much over 2,000 US$. That means that a cheap
census following our current rules would cost about a 35% of our
budget. A 35%! Which nation can afford a census at such a price?
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:32:36 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve Luci Sicini,
> DRUSUS: It's fairly easy to suport the secrective
> Cassius/Labienus proposal since no one outside the
> Senate has the slightest idea exactly what is in that
> proposal.
Actually, it was posted here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/2599
> For all any of us know the Junior Consul
> vetoed it over a clause that the Paterfamilis of
> Cornelia have a steak driven through his heart. ;o)
That part was eliminated in committee.
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:55:22 -0800 (PST) |
|
Well I can certainly see problems with this lex.
First of all the 10% minimum quota for Patricians is
absurdly high. By the Late Republic there were roughly
55 Patricain families in a city with a population of
between 600,000 and 1,000,000.
I Prefer my Proposed maxium of 5% of the population
with no new Patrician families beyond that figure, and
truefully even that 5% is far too high to be historic.
This section is by far the worst part.
"1. Each physically separate household led by a
Citizen of legal age shall be considered a separate
and independent familia of 'sui iuris' status. Each
Citizen of Nova Roma must be a member (or leader) of a
familia.
The Roman family was what is now called an extended
family. It didn't just consist of two adults and some
children. It was multi-generational. If you define a
modern household as a family this law has the same
effect as the present system. It creates legal
roadblocks for those who wish to set up a true Roman
family.
This is just replacing one ahistoric model that
citizens are locked into with another ahistoric model
that citizens are locked into.
--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> > DRUSUS: It's fairly easy to suport the secrective
> > Cassius/Labienus proposal since no one outside the
> > Senate has the slightest idea exactly what is in
> that
> > proposal.
>
> Actually, it was posted here:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/2599
>
> > For all any of us know the Junior Consul
> > vetoed it over a clause that the Paterfamilis of
> > Cornelia have a steak driven through his heart.
> ;o)
>
> That part was eliminated in committee.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
> Candidate for Censor 2756:
> http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/
>
>
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:58:51 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salve, L. Sicini.
--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> escribió:
>
> --- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> SNIP
> >
> > The core problem is that we currently have a gens system that
> > creates many problems (like delays in citizenship applications, for
> > example) and that is not even historically accurate. The objective
> > is to reform our system while keeping its current virtues. I
> > sincerely believe that a system closer to the Roman historical
> > model (like the one proposed in the Cassius/Labienus proposal)
> > would attain that goal. And, since we are here to bring back "the
> > best of Rome", I think that such a solution would be extremely
> > appropriate.
>
> DRUSUS: It's fairly easy to suport the secrective Cassius/Labienus
> proposal since no one outside the Senate has the slightest idea
> exactly what is in that proposal. For all any of us know the Junior
> Consul vetoed it over a clause that the Paterfamilis of Cornelia have
> a steak driven through his heart. ;o)
>
> Simply stating support for a proposal that few of us have seen tells
> the voters nothing about what you are actualy supporting.
I have found a message on this very same list where you will be able to
read Cassius Iulianus's initial proposal:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/2599
Labienus suggested changes to that proposal were in the line of
allowing those willing to remain under a certain paterfamilias to do
so, and to implement a historically based adoption system. I am sorry,
but I haven't found Labienus's proposal outside of the Senate mailing
list. I will keep looking, just in case.
> I Favor a system where each Gens has the option of continuing with
> the present ahistoric system or of moving to a more historic model.
Then you favour the Cassius/Labienus proposal :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:08:21 -0800 (PST) |
|
--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> Salve, L. Sicini.
>
> --- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
> escribió:
> >
> > --- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>
> wrote:
> > SNIP
> > >
> > > The core problem is that we currently have a
> gens system that
> > > creates many problems (like delays in
> citizenship applications, for
> > > example) and that is not even historically
> accurate. The objective
> > > is to reform our system while keeping its
> current virtues. I
> > > sincerely believe that a system closer to the
> Roman historical
> > > model (like the one proposed in the
> Cassius/Labienus proposal)
> > > would attain that goal. And, since we are here
> to bring back "the
> > > best of Rome", I think that such a solution
> would be extremely
> > > appropriate.
> >
> > DRUSUS: It's fairly easy to suport the secrective
> Cassius/Labienus
> > proposal since no one outside the Senate has the
> slightest idea
> > exactly what is in that proposal. For all any of
> us know the Junior
> > Consul vetoed it over a clause that the
> Paterfamilis of Cornelia have
> > a steak driven through his heart. ;o)
> >
> > Simply stating support for a proposal that few of
> us have seen tells
> > the voters nothing about what you are actualy
> supporting.
>
> I have found a message on this very same list where
> you will be able to
> read Cassius Iulianus's initial proposal:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/2599
>
> Labienus suggested changes to that proposal were in
> the line of
> allowing those willing to remain under a certain
> paterfamilias to do
> so, and to implement a historically based adoption
> system. I am sorry,
> but I haven't found Labienus's proposal outside of
> the Senate mailing
> list. I will keep looking, just in case.
>
> > I Favor a system where each Gens has the option of
> continuing with
> > the present ahistoric system or of moving to a
> more historic model.
>
> Then you favour the Cassius/Labienus proposal :-).
>
Now that I've seen it I do not.
It locks us into using a modern household as a family
and that is ahistoric. The Roman family was what is
refered to as an extended family in modern terms. It
was multi-generational. I Have no qualms with those
who are willing to settle for a less than accurate
household model for thier family structure, but those
who wish to have true multigenrational families
shouldn't have any legal roadblocks placed in thier
way.
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:22:04 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salve, consul Sulla.
--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> escribió:
> Avete Tribune,
>
> Certainly you can review this. Here is how I would conduct the
> Census, if I was still Censor.
>
> First you subtract those citizens who pay the tax.
> Second you subtract those citizens who voted in the December Election
> (this election).
> Third you subtract those Paters who responded to the yearly
> registration.
> Fourth you subtract those citizens who came in during the calender
> year.
>
> This takes out about 600 people (maybe more considering the new
> citizen numbers). But for safety sake we will say 600 people are
> removed, leaving 1000 left to be "counted."
>
> First thing I would do would be to set up a page on the website and
> advertise on the ML for all citizens to go there and verify their
> citizenship. (this complies with Section E of the Lex Cornelia.).
>
> Second thing I would do is the bulk email. To all citizens who have
> failed to respond to the Census request. Give that about a or two
> week(s) to give people enough time to respond. Then filter out the
> names who responded and do a second bulk email. With the mass
> mailing that went out with our new voter codes we have already gotten
> at least 3 resignations.
Ah, I forgot about this one, you're right.
> Third, I would request the assistance of all active Paterfamili in
> having them get in touch with their gens members. Since most
> Paterfamili should have some contact information on their gens
> members, this would be a convinent way to save money.
I know that you are a very active paterfamilias, Sulla; but many
paterfamilias are not so active. In fact, we have over 100 inactive
paterfamilias that will probably not answer the call.
Besides, many gentes have members in several continents. It would cost
less to NR, but do you really think that many paterfamilias would use
their own money to pay for intercontinental phone calls? Yes, yes; I
know you would... but how many more?
> I would hope that by utilizing these measures most of our citizens
> will be reached. However, it is very likely given the numbers that
> not all of them will be contacted. Then we can get into the bulk
> surface mail. And as a last resort phone calls. Again, if the
> cost of the census exceeds the budget the Senate has already approved
> a reimbursement procedure.
>
> I freely recognize that this first census will be the most expensive
> and the worst considering we have never done a Census before.
> However, once the first Census is completed all future census counts
> will be alot easier because we will have experience to build on and
> most likely a smaller number of citizens.
I think that it would be much simpler to include provincial
organizations (for whom phone calls will be local) into the formula.
*That* would be a good way to cut down costs.
> Personally, I only see Nova Roma having maybe 700-800 citizens total.
> I expect to see the number on the Album Civium drop dramatically
> once the Census is properly done.
In this we (unfortunately) agree. We have to be realistic, after all.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
_______________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:27:35 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salve, Druse.
--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> escribió:
> Well I can certainly see problems with this lex.
>
> First of all the 10% minimum quota for Patricians is
> absurdly high. By the Late Republic there were roughly
> 55 Patricain families in a city with a population of
> between 600,000 and 1,000,000.
I didn't like that part either. I think that it was reduced in the
Labienian version, but I can't be sure.
> I Prefer my Proposed maxium of 5% of the population
> with no new Patrician families beyond that figure, and
> truefully even that 5% is far too high to be historic.
I prefer that maximum too.
> This section is by far the worst part.
>
> "1. Each physically separate household led by a Citizen of legal age
> shall be considered a separate and independent familia of 'sui iuris'
> status. Each Citizen of Nova Roma must be a member (or leader) of a
> familia.
>
> The Roman family was what is now called an extended family. It didn't
> just consist of two adults and some children. It was multi-
> generational. If you define a modern household as a family this law
> has the same effect as the present system. It creates legal
> roadblocks for those who wish to set up a true Roman family.
I agree. Extended families (grandparents, brothers, even cousins and
uncles) should be taken into account.
> This is just replacing one ahistoric model that citizens are locked
> into with another ahistoric model that citizens are locked into.
That's pretty strong, don't you think?
You have just found *two* small flaws (two flaws that I, for instance,
would like to correct as well) into a pretty long proposal.
Boy, do you have high standards... I guess that you always vote "NO" to
legislative proposals :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: My questions: Thanks |
| From: |
"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:31:52 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Jamie Johnston <jamiekjohnston@y...> wrote:
<snipped>
>
> My further thanks to all those who expressed views on
> the general issue of gens reform. It is an issue in
> which I have a small interest. I considered applying
> for citizenship about a year ago, and, conceiving a
> desire to be a Sempronius (I'm a fan of C. Sempronius
> Gracchus and of the earlier Sempronius who wrote a
> commentary on constitutional practice), I tried to
> contact the paterfamilias. Talking to various people,
> I heard that he was AWOL, and that as the gens was
> closed, there was nothing anyone could do to help me
> join it. I was disheartened and lost interest. It is
> true that I renewed my interest a few months ago and
> have re-applied for a different gens, but this could
> very nearly not have happened, and I just wonder how
> many potential citizens have been lost for this
> reason.
Well now THIS news breaks my heart, for I have admired your
thoughtful and intelligent speech, and it would have indeed been a
great honour to call you "frater," feeling as I do about the brothers
Gracchi (Caius is likewise my favourite of the two famous reformers).
I know you have an application in the works, but is there any
possible way you would consider contacting the praetors for admission
into gens Sempronia by citing the Edictum Praetoricum --
Praetores May Act on Behalf of Absent Patresfamiliae?
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2002-08-07.html
*sigh* It would be SO good to have company!
---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:33:56 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salve, Druse.
--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> escribió:
<<snipped>>
> > Then you favour the Cassius/Labienus proposal :-).
> >
> Now that I've seen it I do not.
> It locks us into using a modern household as a family
> and that is ahistoric. The Roman family was what is
> refered to as an extended family in modern terms. It
> was multi-generational. I Have no qualms with those
> who are willing to settle for a less than accurate
> household model for thier family structure, but those
> who wish to have true multigenrational families
> shouldn't have any legal roadblocks placed in thier
> way.
Let me see if I have understood it correctly.
I am sure that this is more a wording problem than anything else, and
that the writers of this proposal would surely accept a different
wording, now that you have pointed that mistake out. But, even then,
you are rejecting a whole proposal because it is historically
innacurate. Because of a small wording problem, you prefer to have a
*completely* inaccurate system than this one.
I am beginning to have doubts about your good will and impartiality
towards this issue, Druse :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:32:09 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
See, the Lex Cornelia de Censo is definately written from a Censor's point of view. :) But let me just comment a bit on Tribune Salix's responses a bit.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best
Salve, consul Sulla.
--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> escribió:
> Avete Tribune,
>
> Certainly you can review this. Here is how I would conduct the
> Census, if I was still Censor.
>
> First you subtract those citizens who pay the tax.
> Second you subtract those citizens who voted in the December Election
> (this election).
> Third you subtract those Paters who responded to the yearly
> registration.
> Fourth you subtract those citizens who came in during the calender
> year.
>
> This takes out about 600 people (maybe more considering the new
> citizen numbers). But for safety sake we will say 600 people are
> removed, leaving 1000 left to be "counted."
>
> First thing I would do would be to set up a page on the website and
> advertise on the ML for all citizens to go there and verify their
> citizenship. (this complies with Section E of the Lex Cornelia.).
>
> Second thing I would do is the bulk email. To all citizens who have
> failed to respond to the Census request. Give that about a or two
> week(s) to give people enough time to respond. Then filter out the
> names who responded and do a second bulk email. With the mass
> mailing that went out with our new voter codes we have already gotten
> at least 3 resignations.
Ah, I forgot about this one, you're right.
Sulla: I know. You are not the only one to make this error. Which is precisely why I wrote my response based on if I was still Censor. It gives a nice structure, IMHO.
> Third, I would request the assistance of all active Paterfamili in
> having them get in touch with their gens members. Since most
> Paterfamili should have some contact information on their gens
> members, this would be a convinent way to save money.
I know that you are a very active paterfamilias, Sulla; but many
paterfamilias are not so active. In fact, we have over 100 inactive
paterfamilias that will probably not answer the call.
Sulla: Well, in this I am not certain. Our Censors claim to have completed the Gens registration (based on an email where Censor Caius Flavius closed quite a few gentes). So, we should assume those who have not been closed are active. They should respond.
Besides, many gentes have members in several continents. It would cost
less to NR, but do you really think that many paterfamilias would use
their own money to pay for intercontinental phone calls? Yes, yes; I
know you would... but how many more?
Sulla: Tribune not all gentes have 93 members of their gens. Our average gens has 2-3 members iirc. If they cannot make 2-3 phone calls to their Gens members then I think we have a deeper problem in Nova Roma. I am more than willing to call every single member of the Gens Cornelia if I must (and I know I have about 35 inactive Cornelians so far).
> I would hope that by utilizing these measures most of our citizens
> will be reached. However, it is very likely given the numbers that
> not all of them will be contacted. Then we can get into the bulk
> surface mail. And as a last resort phone calls. Again, if the
> cost of the census exceeds the budget the Senate has already approved
> a reimbursement procedure.
>
> I freely recognize that this first census will be the most expensive
> and the worst considering we have never done a Census before.
> However, once the first Census is completed all future census counts
> will be alot easier because we will have experience to build on and
> most likely a smaller number of citizens.
I think that it would be much simpler to include provincial
organizations (for whom phone calls will be local) into the formula.
*That* would be a good way to cut down costs.
Sulla: If the Paters and Maters took accountability for their gentes the costs for NR would be even less. And it would be doing a great thing, building up Gens relationships. Which is the foundation of Nova Roma.
> Personally, I only see Nova Roma having maybe 700-800 citizens total.
> I expect to see the number on the Album Civium drop dramatically
> once the Census is properly done.
In this we (unfortunately) agree. We have to be realistic, after all.
Sulla: I understand.
Vale,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] A question for Maximuse -Maximus statement |
| From: |
qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:57:20 EST |
|
In a message dated 11/15/02 12:07:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
diana@gensmoravia.org writes:
> So why are you running for Consul Maximus? Since you have stated yourself
> that the position of Consul isn't what interests you, a bit of a
> clarification is in order I think.
>
> And by "vacuum", what do you mean? Your statement insinuates that you are
> running only to make sure that someone who can not be intimidated by you
> doesn't win.
>
> Diana Moravia Aventina
>
Salve Diana Moravia et al.
<Sigh> To clarify. Yes, I wanted to run for Censor. Yes, I was asked by
Pompia Cornelia to run for Consul instead, since we had worked closely
together this year. Yes, I'm the conservative choice, since I believe the
people should have a choice, in the tradition of Republic.
I do not favor quick and hasty Gens reform. Why cause disruption if it is
not needed? This is not a life or death matter. There will be Gens reform,
we cannot keep the current system. But as Minucius says and I hope I'm not
misquoting him, we need imput from the people before we write a lex, because
we cannot keep revisiting this problem.
Yes, you are correct Gemius, I want to protect everybody's rights, from the
lowly Filiusfamilias to the Paterfamilias during this reform. Because that
is fair. And Labienus is correct in that the Religio is strengthened by the
reform.
I spoke to Labienus during the weeks we were writing a proposal, he knows my
concerns and I his.
First don't we have take the census? Is not that the one most important
factor in our lives right now in the Republic? Are you not curious to know
how many citizens are active and inactive? Through that we can eliminate
inactive PFs, something that was the number one concern of all the people who
wrote me, and which also seems the vocal concern on this list.
We must set up the courts. We must bind the Nova Roma citizens to the cause.
They must respect all magistrates, they must want to pay their dues. We
need all these things to work if we are to carry out our Sacred mission to
activate the nation of Rome, physically. We have proven it will work
virtually, now we must get it to work physically.
I keep quoting Virgilus. "Rome was not built in a Day." I repeat, we must
move forward, but at a sober pace.
I appreciate your vote.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:33:49 -0800 (PST) |
|
--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
SNIP
>
> I am beginning to have doubts about your good will
> and impartiality
> towards this issue, Druse :-).
>
Oh, I freely admit to being partial towards
multigenrational families because of my macronational
family history.
In 1929 My Great Grandfater lost $600,000 in the stock
market crash. My Grandfater took on the burden of
suporting his parents and his brothers and sisters,
but continued to recognize his fater as the head of
the family.
When My Great Grandfater died in 1953, my Grandfather
had earned so much respect that he was recognized as
the head of the family and his brothers and sisters
continued to come to him for advice.
My Father was the oldest son, and when My Grandfater
died in 1980 he had the respect of the rest of the
family and was the person everyone came to for advice,
His brothers and his sister and thier children as well
myself and my siblings.
Since I am the oldest son,When My Father died last
month I found myself with the task of holding a
multi-genrational family intact, and I intend to live
up to this obligation.
When you ask me to support a law that fails to
recognize a multi-genrational family you are asking me
to recognize a law that would break up my
Macronational Family if it were a Nova Roman family.
That is asking too much.
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] The election |
| From: |
"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:42:10 -0500 |
|
Salvete, Sodalis Quirites
I hope this finds everyone in good health with the time and means to enjoy it.
As the voting to elect next years magistrates are about to commence I've seen a number of people give their choices for various offices. Since I've been around for a little while and I've seen the comings and goings of Nova Roma since the founding, I thought that some citizens may find my opinions of use. Who knows they may even agree with me ;-)
Anyway, the most exciting thing to me is that we actually have some debates over issues!
That and we have many worthy candidates, both newer and older citizens. This will be the best election yet!
I've already made a statement for total support of Marcus Octavius as candidate for Censor.
Even though no one took up the challenge I urge everyone to vote for him in spite of this.
He deserves our backing despite my poor ability to translate my feelings and thoughts.
In the matter of Consul, I offer what little support I have to Titus Labienus Fortunatus. He has been a pillar of virtue since I've known him. He is ethical to a fault (I know that doesn't make sense as I write it, but I think he knows what I mean ;-) He is hard working and dependable. Beholding to no 'faction', he will do what is best for the Republic regardless of his personal desire. He has my utmost trust.
For Praetor, all candidates are worthy, but Marcus Arminus has shown himself to be a most worthy example of Romanitas. He has been of great assistance to the Censores and a tireless worker doing many tasks behind the scenes, if you look around the website you will be amazed at the things he has done. For starters check out the Provincia links and the histories, very impressive. Gnaeus Salix Astur has been a very active Tribune and has shown that he also has the best interests of all the people in mind. They would make a formidable duo.
Both candidates, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus et Franciscus Apulus Caesar for Aedilis Curulis deserve our support, they have done a tremendous amount of work to promote Nova Roma and have real talent for the office they seek.
I don't think it would be appropriate for me to endorse any of the candidates for Tribune Plebis, but I do have thoughts on the people I know. Lucius Pompeius Octavianus Propraetor Argentina has worked hard to promote Nova Roma despite the horrific conditions that plague his country presently. Marcus Marcius Rex may is one of the most knowledgeable citizens we have in matters of law and he is also someone whom can be trusted to do what is best for the republic before personal considerations. Gaius Popillius Laenas has been Quaestor for this year and he did a tremendous job assisting the Consul implementing the tax levy. He handled the monies in a professional manner and is someone I hope to meet in person soon. Diana Moravia Aventina is someone I've worked with as Censor that has displayed the kind of character that is indicative of a real leader, I look forward seeing her earn a prominent place in Nova Roma and hopefully I will be able to meet all these people in person one day.
Well, since the other offices are unopposed I hope we will give the candidates our support and vote them all in well with our votes. I'm really pleased that so many people have chosen to serve,especially newer citizens, despite our differences and the sometimes heated discussions. Optimam Fortunam Omnibus.
Mars nos protegas!
Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: House for sale |
| From: |
Joanne Shaver <merlinia@comcast.net> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:45:07 -0500 |
|
Well, it's still up for sale; It has a new coat of paint,flashings,
a new driveway, and the basement has been sealed & looks good.
He's asking $200.+ now, but it is still low for Maplewood.(our town
taxes went down,too).
Joanne Shaver wrote:
>
> Clan naBheithir communique:
> -------------------------------------
>
> Salvete, all. Merlinia here.
> My next door neighbor, Anna, is not going to come home, so her family
> is selling the house. It has 3 rooms & bath upstairs, 2 rooms, kitchen,
> & heated porch on 1st floor. basement gets moist when we Really have
> rain. Shaded yard, small garage. Gas fired steam heat. Asking $195,000.
> The number is 1 (908) 273-3594 ; I think it's her Nephew.
> Valete!
> -M.
> ---
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.bheithir.org <<<< new and improved
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] ***VENATIONES*** 9th day!!!!! |
| From: |
Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:45:12 -0800 (PST) |
|
WELCOME BACK TO THE VENATIONES!!!!
THE MUSARUM NETWORK IS AGAIN WITH YOUTO FOLLOW THESE
GREAT COMBATS!!!!!!!!!
Hey! We have an old friend in the Circus Flaminius! A
winner of past edition!
Tiberius Annaeus Otho, which after his wonderful
wedding, now tries to cover his name with glory for
the second time! ;)
Tiberius actually owns 5,833 Sestertii. No bad!
Well! I see his fighter! He just entered the circus!
TINGIS!!!!!!!!!
This fighter comes from Mauretania (West of North
Africa). He trained up to now in the Ludus
Matutinus... and we can notice the results!!!!!!!!
He is a strength of 46!!!!!! And a resistance of
39!!!!!!!!!!
In his curriculum vitae he already has a victim: a
ravenous bruin!
Who will be his next foe?
..............
.............
A HIPPOPOTAMUS!!!!!!!!!!
Hippo has been recently caught in Aegyptus. Hippo has
30 strength pointa and 33 resistance points. Good luck
Hippo! Tingis is really not easy to defeat!!!
Hippo smiles. Hippo is really nice.
Tingis approaches Hippo.
Hippo doesn't seems to understand what's happening.
Hippo just looks for affection and love.
(Hey, who brought us this pet?)
BUT TINGIS IS PITILESS AND STABS HIPPO IN THE BACK!!!
Tingis still has 39 resistance points. Hippo only 17!
Hippo is a bit resentful. Hippo scolds Tingis and
bites him.
So TINGIS STABS HIPPO AGAIN!!!!!!!!!
OUCH!
Tingis 38, Hippo 3!
Hippo goes angry. Hippo walks toward the crowd and ask
the Praetor for justice, according to the Lex
Iudiciaria.
The Praetor aswers that Hippo must wait fot the Lex to
by voted by the Comitia. This will happen soon.
Hippo expresses his concerns on this matter. Hippo
isn't completely sure that Tingis will be willing to
wait until that day.
Hippo is right.
Tingis approaches Hippo and stabs him for the third
time.
Just before dying, Hippo makes the Praetor notice that
Hippo was right: Tingis hasn't been patient at all.
Hippo curls up.
Tingis has 37 resistance points. Hippo... hasn't.
TINGIS VICTOR!!!!
He wins another combat!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey! It means that Tiberius will get other
Sestertii... :)
Congratulations!
=========================
Well, while waiting for the circus to be prepared for
next combat, I read a new press release about
Latina's pilgrimage.
--------------------------------------
>>>LATINA'S ODYSSEY<<<
Latina and the lion passed the night in front of the
Oracle's home. The Sea Monster tasted delicious.
In the morning the Oracle came back. The Oracle had
been in the city to do the shopping and to buy several
gadgets to give as a present to those who come to
consult it.
The Oracle offered a coffee to Latina and the lion.
They kindly refused.
After a nice conversation Latina posed her question to
the Oracle, and the Oracle gave its response.
Latina was also presented with "the Oracle's watch", a
nice gadget. You ask "What's the time?" and it answers
"It depends".
Latina thanked the wise Oracle and started walking
toward her ship in order to come back to Nova Roma.
We will know the Oracle's response as she arrives.
-------------------------------
And we hope she's arriving soon! :)
==================================
AVETE OMNES!!!!!!!!
We are here to follow the last "normal" fighting. In
fact after this combat we will have the Venatio Magna,
3 men against 10 crocodiles!!!!!!
But let's see what will our next fighter do!
Ladies and Gentlemen, directly from Cilicia (South of
Turkey),
after strongly training in the Ludus Matutinus...
a very clever man.
strength: 28
resistance: 24
He's LONCHUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
His Dominus is a new entry of the Nova Roma
Venationes, Titus Arminius Genialis...
Is this citizen trying to emulate his "relative"
Lucius Arminius Faustus, that great winner?
Hey! This relationship is a good point for Genialis!
On the other hand... somebody could remember a certain
Arminius.... not a nice name for those who know a bit
about Teutoburg....
Anyway, that's not the case! Our Gens Arminia is one
of the noblest in Nova Roma! ;)
I know that Lonchus and Aquinca (Lucius Arminius
Faustus' fighter) were planning to train together to
improve their abilities. Unfortunately they had no
time.
Well, her it is. The foe!
Someone could still rememeber this Numidian animal...
Do you rememeber that fighter in past edition, Mageri?
He was killed by this huge.....
Rhinoceros!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Strength.......... 49!!!!!!!!!!
Resistance.............. 37!!!!!!!!!
Hmm..... not a nice situation.....
Lonchus brandishes his pilum. He's ready for the
combat.
The Rhino slowly approaches. It seems to be rather
calm.
Lonchus doesn't want to wast his time: he takes aim
and.... HE THROWS HIS PILUM!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUT THE RHINOCEROS SUDDENDLY START RUNNING TOWARD
LONCHUS!!!!!!!
OUR FIGHTER IS COMPLETELY OUT OF BALANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And in the very moment where the pilum hits the
ground, the horn of the rhinoceros transfixes Lonchus'
chest.
The crowd lets out a yell.
Lonchus is astonished.
The beast remains motionless, while the fighter tries
to seize its head...
... but he loses heart, and closes his eyes.
The rhinoceros rouses itself. The body falls on the
ground.
This is really not the kind of combats we would like
to see.
Perhaps Lonchus was still inexperienced to fight in
the circus. We also must consider that his enemy was
*really* strong.
An another fighter will have to face this beast during
next edition of the Venationes...
Cives of Nova Roma: the Rhinoceros still has 37
resistance points.
Lonchus... is dead.
Genialis, don't worry. You have been wise. You still
owns 4,500 Sestertii, the right amount of Sestertii
you need to buy another fighter and introduce him/her
into a gymnasium. You will have the opportunity to do
that just before next venationes!
As to next combats......... THE VENATIO MAGNA
APPROACHES!!!!!!!!!!
WE STRONGLY INVITE YOU TO FOLLOW THIS GREAT
COMBAT!!!!!!!!!
VELETE OPTIME!!!!!!
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Reminder: LVDI PLEBEI *** BUILD NOVA ROMA!!! (and right URL) |
| From: |
Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:49:19 -0800 (PST) |
|
AVETE OMNES!!!!!!!!!!
One more game for the Ludi Plebei!!!!!!!!!!
It is really easy! ;)
Every citizen can send us a "brick" to build a
symbolical temple façade.
The "brick" is a word (e.g. a virtue), a date (e.g.
the date of a battle) or a name (e.g. a Roman general
or the place of a battle) wich you deem important to
Nova Roma and Her culture.
The "bricks" can be sent to consulromanus@yahoo.com
during the Ludi Plebei until the temple façade is
completed. remember to put "BRICK" in the subject
line!
The temple façade will be built at
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/build.html
Every citizen can only send one "brick".
This building, as you can understand, is very
important to Nova Roma. It has a high symbolical
meaning. That is why we strongly suggest you to send
your brick at "Build Nova Roma"!
OPTIME VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
***Candidate for Quaestor***
Scriba Aedilis Plebis (Ti.Apo.Cicatrix)
-------------------------------
VISIT MY WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:03:09 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Druse.
--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> escribió:
<<snipped>>
> When you ask me to support a law that fails to recognize a multi-
> genrational family you are asking me to recognize a law that would
> break up my Macronational Family if it were a Nova Roman family.
> That is asking too much.
I think I have expressed myself incorrectly :-).
I completely agree with your point of view towards extended families. I
also believe that both Cassius and Labienus agree with your point of
view as well (that is my personal belief; I could be wrong. But they
are both very reasonable gentlemen, so I really do think that they
agree with you there).
You have spotted a wrong wording in this proposal. Thank you very much!
If I am allowed to take a part in the writing of the next version of
this proposal, I would like to include the extended family concept you
have been asking for, and I would like to revise the concept of a
minimum number of patrician familiae.
As you know, no proposal can be absolutely perfect. It is through
constructive criticism that we can improve a certain proposal.
My question is: would you support a proposal that included those
provisions? Do you agree with the basic intent of this proposal?
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Research Journal |
| From: |
"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 08:59:00 -0500 |
|
Sp. Postumius Tubertus Quiritibus S.P.D.
Salvete,
Getting back to the research journal, I finally got around to putting things together (momentarily; things will surely change). So, that said, a new Yahoo! group has been created for the Nova Roma Research Journal (name used now for lack of a better word). If you haven't already subscribed, I urge and encourage all interested parties, citizens and non-citizens alike, to subscribe over at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Research/ or NR_Research-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.
Optime Valete,
Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Retiarius Lacuum Magnorum
Scriba Praetoris
Scriba Curatoris Araneae
Discipolus Anno Tertio Linguae Latinae
Civis Lacuum Magnorum Provinciae
Civis Patriae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima
"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" -- Q. Horati Flacci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - end of photo contest |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:33:49 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete!
The photo contest has ended! Many thanks to everyone
who participated!
The last photo was an interior view of the Theatre at
Orange (France).
Our last winner: Gallus Solaris Alexander
Others who have submitted a correct answer:
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus
Jullila Sempronia Magna
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
********************
And here are the final results of the photo contest;
who is our greatest monument-specialist?
WINNER: Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus - 21 points
2. Sextus Apollonius Scipio - 20
3. Julilla Sempronia Magna - 20
4. Tiberius Galerius Paulinus - 11
5. Caius Tarquitius Saturninus - 9
6. Spurius Postumius Tubertus - 6
7. Titus Labienus Fortunatus - 5
8. Tiberius Annaeus Otho - 5
9. Quintus Quinctilius Varus Galili - 5
10. Gallus Solaris Alexander - 3
11. Diana Moravia Aventina - 3
12. Titus Licinius Crassus - 2
13. Marcus Marcius Rex - 2
14. Caius Basilicatus Agricola - 2
15. Alexander Tarquitius Sulla - 2
16. Aeternia - 2
How are these points calculated:
- two points for each correct answer.
- one extra point for each of our random winners.
- three extra points for those who participated every
time.
- Our winner also received two bonus points for
guessing our one very difficult photo correct (the
statue of C. Iulius Caesar in Belgium)
Congratulations!!!
Thank you all for participating!
Valete bene
=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 07:01:17 -0800 (PST) |
|
--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, Druse.
>
> --- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
> escribió:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > When you ask me to support a law that fails to
> recognize a multi-
> > genrational family you are asking me to recognize
> a law that would
> > break up my Macronational Family if it were a Nova
> Roman family.
> > That is asking too much.
>
> I think I have expressed myself incorrectly :-).
> I completely agree with your point of view towards
> extended families. I
> also believe that both Cassius and Labienus agree
> with your point of
> view as well (that is my personal belief; I could be
> wrong. But they
> are both very reasonable gentlemen, so I really do
> think that they
> agree with you there).
>
> You have spotted a wrong wording in this proposal.
> Thank you very much!
> If I am allowed to take a part in the writing of the
> next version of
> this proposal, I would like to include the extended
> family concept you
> have been asking for, and I would like to revise the
> concept of a
> minimum number of patrician familiae.
>
> As you know, no proposal can be absolutely perfect.
> It is through
> constructive criticism that we can improve a certain
> proposal.
>
> My question is: would you support a proposal that
> included those
> provisions? Do you agree with the basic intent of
> this proposal?
>
I Agree with the basic idea of Gens reform and have
supported it since I became a Roman citizen. Since
this involves an admendment to the Constitution I
favor being very careful to insure that we get it
right the first time. If it is just a lex then mostly
right or a move in the right direction is reason to
support it. The standards are higher when you are
amending the Constitution, then it has to be right the
first time.
I Call on the Senate to appoint a group of citizens to
form a working group that will write a recomendation,
and that this group consist of equal numbers of
citizens with modernist and reconstructionist views. I
Am willing to serve on this group if asked.
Gens reform has the potential to be the most
disruptive action that this nation has ever
undertaken. I do NOT want to see a repeat of the
Gender episode that saw over a year of fighting,
resignations, and mistrust between the groups that
lasts to this day. I Want to get this right the first
time instead of having a series of fights over the
Gens and the Family's place in Nova Roma.
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:57:07 EST |
|
In a message dated 11/15/2002 8:04:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:
> I don't know which is the actual amount held in the aerarium, but I
> believe that it is not much over 2,000 US$. That means that a cheap
> census following our current rules would cost about a 35% of our
> budget. A 35%! Which nation can afford a census at such a price?
In the United States a person can get calling plans were they can get
unlimited long distance. It would be cheaper to do a census via e-mail and
phone calls than through Snail Mail.
But as I have stated before....a census should include the Provincial
Magistrates. They are the ones who know their Provinces...
G. Modius Athanasius
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Temple to Antinous found. |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:18:12 -0000 |
|
Salve,
Archeologists have discovered ruins of a temple near Rome that is
dedicated to the youthful slave historians believe was a homosexual
lover to the Roman emperor Hadrian.
The temple to Antinous dates to 134 A.D., four years after he died at
the age of 21.
The temple was discovered during excavations on Hadrian's villa,
about 20 miles east of Rome. Archeologists reportedly found planters
and fountains for interior gardens and marble fragments with
hieroglyphics.
More information at: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/021114/80/deno8.html
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: My questions: Thanks |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Johnston?= <jamiekjohnston@yahoo.co.uk> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:40:07 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Julilla Sempronia Magna wrote:
> I know you have an application in the works, but is
> there any
> possible way you would consider contacting the
> praetors for admission
> into gens Sempronia by citing the Edictum
> Praetoricum --
> Praetores May Act on Behalf of Absent
> Patresfamiliae?
If I had known about this edict at the time of my
first attempt, I would certainly have tried it. I
think this is worth drawing to the attention of those
who say, 'but there are measures in place to deal with
such problems' - the measures may have been there, but
they were not clear and accessible, and one surely
can't expect every potential applicant to trawl
through the entire tabularium to find a way round the
problem.
But on a personal note, thank you very much for your
concern and encouragement; I'm honoured by your
invitation. I'm afraid, however, that I must decline,
as my application is now concluded, awaiting only the
end of the election period; I shall contact you
off-list to elaborate on the ins and outs of my
application process, which would be of little interest
to most list members.
With thanks,
Jamie
=====
www.strategikon.org
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Sometimes the simple solutions are the best |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:12:04 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Athanasi.
--- AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com escribió:
> In a message dated 11/15/2002 8:04:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> salixastur@yahoo.es writes:
>
> > I don't know which is the actual amount held in the aerarium, but I
> > believe that it is not much over 2,000 US$. That means that a cheap
> > census following our current rules would cost about a 35% of our
> > budget. A 35%! Which nation can afford a census at such a price?
>
> In the United States a person can get calling plans were they can get
> unlimited long distance. It would be cheaper to do a census via
> e-mail and phone calls than through Snail Mail.
Ah, it is good to know that. Thank you :-).
> But as I have stated before....a census should include the Provincial
> Magistrates. They are the ones who know their Provinces...
That is certainly true :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] New Question |
| From: |
"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:20:39 -0500 |
|
Salve,
I have noticed a number of offices and titles that people use when they sign their names. Some I know Consul, Praetor, Quaestor, etc. Is there a list of all titles and offices with a brief description of what they do? The constitution lists the "24" what are these?
Vale,
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Statement for voters |
| From: |
"L. Didius Geminus Sceptius \(E-mail\)" <sceptia@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:26:41 +0100 |
|
Salve quirites
I think the misunderstunding about the Tribunician duties has been
provocated because of my english. Not being it my mathertongue, I want to
apologyze for the poor language used because I haven't made myself clear. My
excuses for it.
The primary and unique wish I have running for the Tribunus Plebis office is
to uphold the observation of our Constitution. I would humbly add that the
citizen rights set in our law as it follows are included in the protection
of our Constitution making it a whole. It says:
"- II.b. The following rights of the Citizens who have reached the age of 18
shall be guaranteed, but this enumeration shall not be taken to exclude
other rights that citizens may possess:
1. Complete authority over their own personal and household rites, rituals,
and beliefs, pagan or otherwise; except where this Constitution mandates
participation in the rites of the Religio Romana, such as the case of
magistrates and Senators;
2. The right and obligation to remain subject to the civil rights and laws
of the countries in which they reside and/or hold citizenship, regardless of
their status as dual citizens of Nova Roma;
3. The right to vote in elections as members of their various comitia on
matters brought before the People in such manner as described in this
Constitution;
4. The right to participate in all public forums and discussions, and the
right to reasonably expect such forums to be supported by the State. Such
communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by the
State, except where they represent an imminent and
clear danger to the Republic. Such officially sponsored forums may be
expected to be reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining order
and civility;
5. The right of provocatio; to appeal a decision of a magistrate that has a
direct negative impact upon that citizen to the comitia populi tributa;
6. The right to remain sovereign and secure within one's own home, person,
and property;
7. The right to seek and receive assistance and advice from the State in
matters of religious and social dispute occurring both within and outside
the direct jurisdiction of Nova Roma; and,
8. The right to pursue business enterprises within Nova Roma through the
institution of the ordo equester (equestrian order), and the right to
receive reasonable encouragement to build a strong economy through
Roman-oriented commerce; the only restrictions being those informational and
other materials copyrighted by the State, which shall remain the property of
the State."
I hope then, and wish again, that any question referred to my candidature
shall be cleared now. However, I shall be pleased to clarify as much as I
can any aditional question referring to my candidature or intention. :-)
I humbly believe that the achievement of a great Res Publica should be our
main goal. It certainly is my goal.
If any of my words, now and before, have been understood on some other way
or aren't clear enough, humbly hope this explanations will clarify them. :-)
Vale,
L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
- Candidate to Tribunus Plebis -
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] The election |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:15:11 +0100 |
|
Salvete Quirites!
I choose to state my support for the following candidates during the
coming elections.
CONSUL
Here my shyness forbids me to state any name.
PRAETOR
I support Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur, because of his tremendous
work in his Provincia, in the Academia and in the Tribunate. He is a
very honest, hardworking and knowledgeable person.
I also support Illustrus Marcus Arminius Maior, who has done a great
job as a Censorial Scriba and as a Senator and Propraetor.
AEDILIS CURILIS
It is a great joy for me to be able to support both candidates as I
do think that we here have to do with two of the future leaders of
Nova Roma. I have had the privilege to work together with both of
them in my Cohors Aedilis, where I have found them to be two very
good and active men. Illustrus Franciscus Apulus Caesar has done a
_huge_ work in reviving the Provincia Italia and in his work with the
Ludi that were my responsibility. Illustrus Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
has done great job with my Aedilian edicta and also in Sodalitas
Militarium. I think that You will find these two candidates to be a
very good team.
QUAESTORS
All of the candidates will be elected, if there were more candidates
than postions I really would like to have the lex proposed by
Illustris Gnaeus Salix Astur (LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN COMITIA
POPULI TRIBVTA) active. Now I will have the luxury to support more
than one candidate as if that lex is active and will do so.
First of all I support Illustrus Sextus Apollonius Scipio, who have
done a spendid job as the Propraetor of Gallia, a Scriba in the
Academia and as a Praefectus of Egressus. He has created a Financial
Plan that I have re-worked a bit and fully support.
I met Honorable Manius Constantinus Serapio at the Nova Roman Rally
in Belgium this summer. He is very effective whereever You ask him to
work, be it Provincia Italia, the Academia, as Scriba Aedilis or in
the Egressus. A man of action. The kind of citizen that I prefer.
Honorable Gnaeus Octavius Noricus is a citizen that I have got to
know lately. He has made a very good impression on me and I am sure
that he will do a splendid job as Quaestor.
I have worked with Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus, the Propraetor
of Britannia, on the project of the Sodalitas Iurisprudence, I learnt
to trust him there. Even if we don't share all political views I
respect him and hope to work with him in the future.
As a patrician I can't vote for any plebeian magistrati. Still I must
say that we have a few candidates that I have shown my confidence in
in other cirumstances and I will be very proud to see them elected.
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 13 |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:47:22 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete!
QUIZ
Who knows most on Ancient Rome?
**********
Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don’t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting “QUIZ”
in the subject line.
**********
Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones…
Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, …
The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!
Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!
-----
The correct answers of quiz 12:
1. Which of these was a Roman coin? (Denarius)
2. Which of these was a small town found outside a
Roman fort? (Vicus)
3. Which river did Caesar famously cross in 49 BC to
declare his bid for power over Rome? (Rubicon)
4. Which Roman city was destroyed by an eruption of
Mount Vesuvius? (Pompeii)
5. Who wrote "The Beginnings Of Rome. Italy and Rome
from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars"? (TJ Cornell)
-----
Points so far:
72 Julilla Sempronia Magna – 72
66 Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus – 66
63 Sextus Apollonius Scipio – 63
57 Titus Labienus Fortunatus – 57
49 Quintus Lanius Paulinus – 49
42 ST GA Tiberius Galerius Paulinus – 42
41 Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus – 41
39 Gnaeus Equitius Marinus – 39
27 Spurius Postumius Tubertus – 27
19 Marcus Octavius Germanicus – 19
19 Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia – 19
18 Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix – 18
15 Vivius Ambrosius Caesariensis – 15
13 Marcus Arminius Maior – 13
13 Gnaeus Octavius Noricus – 13
10 Gaius Basilicatus Agricola – 10
09 Lithia Cassia – 9
04 Aulus Octavius Serenus – 4
04 Alexandria Iulia Agrippa – 4
03 Virius Nicomacus Flavianus – 3
-----
Here are today's questions:
***************
1. Which Roman leader was the first ever to use troops
under his command against Rome itself?
2. Who competes in an amphitheatre?
- Actors
- chariot racers
- gladiators
3. Who conquered Dacia?
4. Who did Cicero attack in "The Philippics"?
- Julius Caesar
- Octavian
- Mark Anthony
- Brutus
5. Who founded Rome (according to the legend)?
***************
Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!
Valete bene
=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] update century points and offices |
| From: |
"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:56:27 +0100 |
|
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
During the last month I have readen that the album civium within century
points and offices should be updated before the elections.
Is it done? I have checked our official website and for example I don't see
2 Scribae in Provincia Italia.
Thank you very much.
Valete
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
§ VOTE ME AS CURULE AEDILE §
http://italia.novaroma.org/fac/index.htm
-------------------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Quaestor Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Cohors Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus -
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] New Question |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:58:24 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salvete Quirites, et Tiberius Galerius
--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> escreveu: >
> Salve,
>
> I have noticed a number of offices and titles that
> people use when they sign their names. Some I know
> Consul, Praetor, Quaestor, etc. Is there a list of
> all titles and offices with a brief description of
> what they do? The constitution lists the "24" what
> are these?
MAIOR: I believe that you is talking about the
Vigintisexviri, the "26". In Nova Roma, their
functions are defined by the following leges:
VI-Lex Vedia Vigintisexviri
XXIII-Lex Minucia de Rogatoribus
XXX-Lex Labienia de Edictium Vigintisexviris
Currently, we have 6 vigintisexviri: The two Curatores
and the four Rogatores (the interpretes are in one of
the Decuria of Scribes).
LII-Lex Octavia de Sermone
In our Tabularium:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/index.html
To Roma Antiqua, i have a link:
http://37.1911encyclopedia.org/V/VI/VIGINTISEXVIRI.htm
(roll down a bit)
> Vale,
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior
(and here is my own list of titles)
Paterfamilias Arminiae
Senator of Nova Roma
Propraetor Brasiliae
Tribunus Plebis
Scriba of Curator Araenae
Scriba censorialis
Lictor Curiati
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] attn. argentinos novaromanos /novaromans from Argentina |
| From: |
"Daniel" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:38:09 -0000 |
|
Salvete novaromani argentini
Mañana empiezan las elecciones! 18:00 hora de Roma (16:00 hora
Argentina). No se olviden de votar!!!.
Tomorrow elections begin 18:00 Rome time (16:00 local time Argentina).
Do not forget to vote!!!.
Benete valete et habeatis fortunam optimam
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provincialis Argentinae
Candidato a / Candidate for Tribunus Plebis
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] US thanksgiving |
| From: |
me-in-@disguise.co.uk |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:00:58 +0000 (GMT) |
|
-----Original Message-----
>From : Joanne Shaver <merlinia@comcast.net>
> (the Indians ate deer & succotash, and had never even heard of apples,
>let alone apple pie)
Salve honorabilis Materfamilias!
What no turkey! I think it's this side of the Atlantic that should be giving thanks. I can live without cardboard turkey but no tomatoes, potatoes, custard marrow squash, chillies, peppers, beans except for broads, the list is endless and horrific to contemplate having to return to an ancient Roman diet! No wonder their chefs were so keen on disguising things to look like what they weren't.
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
--
Personalised email by http://another.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] New file uploaded to Nova-Roma |
| From: |
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com |
| Date: |
16 Nov 2002 22:02:31 -0000 |
|
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.
File : /provedic.doc
Uploaded by : marminius <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Description : List of edicts of the provinces of Nova Roma
You can access this file at the URL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/provedic.doc
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
marminius <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] update century points and offices |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:02:51 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salve, illustrious propraetor italiae, Franciscus
Apulus Caesar
You is right, Francisce, i missed two of your edicts:
Edict XI and XII, naming Aurelia Iulia Pulcra and
Sempronia Solaria Messalina as scribes propraetorici,
in 13 sept..
They are updated now.
By the way, im uploading a list of provincial edicts
to the files section of the website. If my colleagues
propraetores see that there are some edict missing,
please contact me.
The archive (provedic.doc) is in the MS Word format,
and have the titles of approx. 300 provincial edicts.
Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior
Scriba censorialis
Tribunus Plebis
--- Franciscus Apulus Caesar
<sacro_barese_impero@libero.it> escreveu:
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> During the last month I have readen that the album
> civium within century
> points and offices should be updated before the
> elections.
> Is it done? I have checked our official website and
> for example I don't see
> 2 Scribae in Provincia Italia.
> Thank you very much.
>
> Valete
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
_______________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform, many Doubts |
| From: |
Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org> |
| Date: |
Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:18:37 -0600 |
|
Salvete Luci Sicini omnesque
> I Call on the Senate to appoint a group of citizens to
> form a working group that will write a recomendation,
> and that this group consist of equal numbers of
> citizens with modernist and reconstructionist views.
This was, in fact, exactly my intent. Any reformation of the gentes
must take into consideration the concerns of all parties. It must be
flexible enough to allow our cives to form and maintain the bonds they
desire, and historical enough to foster the growth of the Religio Romana
and capture the spirit of the best aspect of the ancient familia. I
fully believe that this is possible, but it will not be easy and it will
not be achieved quickly.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"
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|
| Subject: |
RE: [Nova-Roma] The election |
| From: |
"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@gensmoravia.org> |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:47:18 +0100 |
|
Salve Caeso,
Salvete everyone,
>Franciscus Apulus Caesar (snip)and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus!
>I think that You will find these two candidates to be a very good team.
I'll second that.
As for Quaestors, I know Sextus Apollonius Scipio and Manius Constantinus
Serapio pretty well and they're both great men. And Serapio has me laughing
out loud every time he gives the play-by-play from the arena!
[>] Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus, the Propraetor
of Britannia,
Shame on me, I didn't realize who this was until I read this email.
The best of luck to you in the elections Decimus Iunius Silanus!!
The elections begin in only a few hours and there are so many good &
honorable people to choice from. The winners of course will be honored, but
when the results are finally announced, I hope that the non-winners (the
word "loser' has such negative connotations) also feel good that they
participated in these elections. They each have came forward and volunteered
their time and hearts in order to make Nova Roma a better place, which to
me, is a very honorable thing indeed!
I wish the best of luck to everyone.
Valete!
Diana Moravia Aventina
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Roman Philosophy list |
| From: |
"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@gensmoravia.org> |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:55:38 +0100 |
|
Salvete,
A few days ago, I posted to this list asking if there was a NR Philosophy
list. I think that it was Jenny who sent me a link, but unfortunately it
didn't work. I've just received a link from Caius Curius Saturninus that a
Roman Philosphy list has just been created. Here's it is is for anyone is
interested :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/romanphilosophy
But if there is already a specifically NR Philosophy list, could someone let
me know? There's no sense 'recruiting' for a Roman Philosphy list if we
already have one!
Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman Philosophy list |
| From: |
"J. Meuleman" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:58:19 +0100 |
|
Salve Diana,
There once was an NR Philosophy list (hosted by yours truly :o)) but I deleted the list because, even though two or three people were trying to keep it alive, nothing of real interest happened there, provided that *something* was happening... So, since it was collecting dust, I deleted it... The sad story of a newsgroup :o(.
Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris
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