Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Roman Philosophy list
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@gensmoravia.org>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:19:03 +0100

Salve Solaris,

Waarom zijn we nog wakker? (=why are we both still awake).Must be that
nothing interesting is on Kanaal 2 of VT4 tonight :-)

>There once was an NR Philosophy list (hosted by yours truly :o)) but I
>deleted the list because, even though two or three people were trying to
>keep it alive, nothing of real interest happened there, provided that
>*something* was happening... So, since it was collecting dust, I deleted
>it... The sad story of a newsgroup :o(.

I hope that Saturninus' list has more success, but I am not too hopeful
after reading your email :-)

Slaap lekker!
vale,
Diana




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?DON'T_FORGET_1670_years_ago!!!?=
From:	"=?utf-8?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:25:41 +0100

Spectati Cives Omens

I would like to remember to everybody that today, 15 Kal Dec is the
1670th anniversary day of the birth of the beloved Emperor FLAVIUS
CLAUDIUS IULIANUS. Please remember him, take your time to read at list
something that he wrote, put flowers around his portrait if you have
one, try to speak about him at least to a friend or gather if you may,
drink and be happy for this a glorious day!

By the way, I certainly do not forget today is Dies Natalis Divi
Vespasiani. He gave us among the biggest glories in all Roman History
and certainly deserves a grain of incense too.

Gallus Solaris Alexander
Bononia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Voting Stations
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:39:47 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

This is my first time voting. Is there going to be a site posted on
this ML telling us where to go to vote tomorrow?

Thanks - Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voting Stations
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:46:59 -0800

Ave,

There will be a link to the main website page for the Cista. Make sure you visit www.novaroma.org/main.html

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:39 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Voting Stations


Salvete Omnes,

This is my first time voting. Is there going to be a site posted on
this ML telling us where to go to vote tomorrow?

Thanks - Quintus


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Endorsement
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:54:05 -0000

Salvete Quirites,

As a candidate myself, I hesitate to make an endorsement post.
Also, I know many of the candidates to be fine people who would be
excellent magistrates.

That said, let me urge you to support Propraetor Lucius Sicinius
Drusus for Praetor.

Lucius Sicinius had doen much great work for Nova Roma that has not
necessairily been in the spotlight, but that has been very
beneficial. He is fair, of outstanding integrity, and is a supurb
student of history and the law.

I urge you again to give him your support.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Three Goddesses
From:	"elinla02" <gmarilde@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:08:42 -0000

Salvete Gemmae Tiberis:

Sorry to take you into the bitter world news.
As you may heard, in the last message from al-qaeda there is, besides
the usual threats, an invitation for all the Americans to convert to
Islam. Well, let me invite you to remeber and pray to the three pre-
islamic Arab Goddesses: ALLAT, MANAT and UZZA.
Remember also that politheism ended in Arabia by the VII century AD.
Have you read that? VII AD!!! That's not too long ago.
I don't know how the prayers would have been like, but the superior
beings understand our thoughts.

May the Three Goddesses feel they are not forgotten.

Valete bene in pax Deorum.
Valeria Constantina Iuliana.





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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting Stations
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:40:45 -0000

Salve Lucius,

Thanks, I'll watch for the link.

Quintus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> There will be a link to the main website page for the Cista. Make
sure you visit www.novaroma.org/main.html
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> To: Nova-Roma@y...
> Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:39 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Voting Stations
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> This is my first time voting. Is there going to be a site posted
on
> this ML telling us where to go to vote tomorrow?
>
> Thanks - Quintus
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@y...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Three Goddesses
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:06:53 -0800 (PST)

Salve,

I Remind you of the fate of the Bhuddas in Afghanistan
under the Taliban. Priceless works of art dynamited
for being "pagan idols". If Al Qaeda has it's way,
what little remains of the Pagan art from antiquita
will suffer the same fate as the Afghan Bhuddas.

--- elinla02 <gmarilde@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Salvete Gemmae Tiberis:
>
> Sorry to take you into the bitter world news.
> As you may heard, in the last message from al-qaeda
> there is, besides
> the usual threats, an invitation for all the
> Americans to convert to
> Islam. Well, let me invite you to remeber and pray
> to the three pre-
> islamic Arab Goddesses: ALLAT, MANAT and UZZA.
> Remember also that politheism ended in Arabia by the
> VII century AD.
> Have you read that? VII AD!!! That's not too long
> ago.
> I don't know how the prayers would have been like,
> but the superior
> beings understand our thoughts.
>
> May the Three Goddesses feel they are not forgotten.
>
> Valete bene in pax Deorum.
> Valeria Constantina Iuliana.
>
>
>
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:19:22 -0000

Salve Druse,

I might add, as I just wrote to Constantina that God or Gods help
Religio Romano, Wiccan or other pagan religions if Al Queda gets its
way. They have some respect for Christianity since they are the
children of the book of Abraham but utter contempt for Pagans. I read
earlier today that you can face beheading in Saudi Arabia for
apostasy (turning your back on Islam) or practicing witchcraft. I
have the Koran beside me, checked it out and these points are made
clear; respect the Christians and Jews but open season on paganism.
Hopefully the secular governments in some of the more powerful
Islamic countries will be in power for some time to come.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:33:50 -0800 (PST)

As Bad as Saudi Arabia is, Al Qaeda considers them too
lax. They hate the Saudi government for even allowing
non-Muslams to "defile" Arabia by setting thier feet
on it's "sacred" soil.

If they win, no Pagan's life will be safe. If you
think they have no chance, in 1924 few thought that
the man who tried to sieze power in a German Beerhall
was a threat. 15 years later he launched a world war.

--- Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:
> Salve Druse,
>
> I might add, as I just wrote to Constantina that God
> or Gods help
> Religio Romano, Wiccan or other pagan religions if
> Al Queda gets its
> way. They have some respect for Christianity since
> they are the
> children of the book of Abraham but utter contempt
> for Pagans. I read
> earlier today that you can face beheading in Saudi
> Arabia for
> apostasy (turning your back on Islam) or practicing
> witchcraft. I
> have the Koran beside me, checked it out and these
> points are made
> clear; respect the Christians and Jews but open
> season on paganism.
> Hopefully the secular governments in some of the
> more powerful
> Islamic countries will be in power for some time to
> come.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:51:09 -0000

Salve Druse,

I agree, its a good possibility. That German Beerhall speaker always
got a barrage of beer mugs flying at him from the socialist elements
during the climaxes of his "early" speeches. Al Qaeda is far ahead of
him in their "actions" rather than talk within the 15 year time
frame. Its scary how history can repeat itself!

PS; With regards to destroying Buddist statues etc: To quote Leo Genn
(Nero's advisor in Quo Vadis) _ Burn your buildings, corrupt the
government, murder and butcher your people but please!... Do not
desecrate, destroy or corrupt the arts!

Vale bene,

Quintus



--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> As Bad as Saudi Arabia is, Al Qaeda considers them too
> lax. They hate the Saudi government for even allowing
> non-Muslams to "defile" Arabia by setting thier feet
> on it's "sacred" soil.
>
> If they win, no Pagan's life will be safe. If you
> think they have no chance, in 1924 few thought that
> the man who tried to sieze power in a German Beerhall
> was a threat. 15 years later he launched a world war.
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:52:47 -0500

Salve,

The art work of the last 2000 years of human history would be put to the torch if any Al Queda like group came to power anywhere. The Pantheon and St Peters in Rome would go. Much more would follow.

"Hopefully the secular governments in some of the more powerful
Islamic countries will be in power for some time to come."

The only secular government in the Muslim world is Turkey. The Saudi and Egyptian governments encourage the fundamental movements because it takes the blame away from the ruling elites that the Arab world is no longer the center of the universe.

The Saudis could have sent every Palestinian to the top 5 universities in the world for free and build each one a house and built industries but they wanted the ISSUE of a Palestinian state not a solution to the problems of the Palestinians.

Does any one ever remember the Egyptians or the Jordanians setting up a Palestinian State between 1948-1967 when THEY controlled Gaza and the West bank? The Muslin world needs but has never had a REFORMATION. The good news is that the Iranian people, who are Muslim but not Arabs, have learned for themselves that they do not like having the Mullahs run the government. In a short time Iran will have another revolution that will bring about a secular and hopefully Democratic government.

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Fortuna Favet Fortibus





From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:19 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses

Salve Druse,

I might add, as I just wrote to Constantina that God or Gods help
Religio Romano, Wiccan or other pagan religions if Al Queda gets its
way. They have some respect for Christianity since they are the
children of the book of Abraham but utter contempt for Pagans. I read
earlier today that you can face beheading in Saudi Arabia for
apostasy (turning your back on Islam) or practicing witchcraft. I
have the Koran beside me, checked it out and these points are made
clear; respect the Christians and Jews but open season on paganism.
Hopefully the secular governments in some of the more powerful
Islamic countries will be in power for some time to come.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Poll results for Nova-Roma
From:	Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date:	17 Nov 2002 08:35:45 -0000

The following Nova-Roma poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: In recent posts we have been discussing
ways to prevent duplicate citizenships.
What I would like to know is what sort
of check would you prefer? (Poll will
be open for 10 days)

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- The implementation of the $3.00 application fee., 16 votes, 34.78%
- Banning all freebie type email addresses (Yahoo, Hotmail, Swrivemail, Lycos, etc), 5 votes, 10.87%
- Phone contact (paid for by the central treasury), 12 votes, 26.09%
- None of these, the system works well enough now., 13 votes, 28.26%



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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] More comments on question for candidates
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:43:11 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Jamie Johnston <jamiekjohnston@y...> wrote:
> Greetings all, and apologies for my absence of several
> days.

I was out of town myself and am only now able to respond to your
question which I shall repost below.

>The first is to all the candidates for magistracies
>which include the power of veto (Tribunes, Praetors
>and Consuls, I believe): What are the views of the
>candidates on the 'gens reform' bill which was
>recently put to the Senate, and how would they react
>if the same bill were to be proposed again during
>their term of office?

It depends upon which bill you are referring to. The original
Cassius/Labienus bill I of course am opposed to. It would radically
turn the current system upside down for the sake of "reform." Reform
in this case is not a good thing. It would replace a gens system,
that while admittedly unhistorical, has served Nova Roma quite well
for 5 years with a new system that is little more historical than the
old and which would cause deep divisions in our society. Why? For the
sake of being seen to be doing something in the name of reform.
Towards the end of the gens reform discussion a proposal was put
forward by then Praetor Pompeia that took into consideration all the
concerns of those on both sides of the gens reform issue. It was a
good beginning towards compromise though the bill had flaws and was
not well written. Consular candidates Quintus Fabius Mamiximus and T.
Labienus Fortunatus spoke highly of it and gave input into its
creation. If a revised version of this bill were carefully considered
and crafted I would support it. Though as praetor I would not likely
deal with such a situation, if a bill such as the original
Cassius/Labienus was hastily put forward by a colleague without
adequate consideration and input I would oppose it. I am in favor of
taking small steps, that way not too much damage can be done through
governmental overaction. It is better for a government to do too
little rather than do too much and cause damage. There is no need for
haste on this topic. Nova Roma has survived this long, it will
survive a little longer. Some form of gens "reform" is inevitable. I
am in favor of a bill that takes into consideration all sides.

Both Consular candidates Fortunatus and Quintus Fabius have expressed
support towards proceeding slowly and carefully in the spirit of
compromise on this issue and I believe they will.

You may take this as a general statement on how I will proceed as
praetor. Carefully, fairly, taking into consideration all points of
view. Festina lente, make haste slowly as the expression goes.

Thank you for asking your questions and I hope to have your vote for
praetor.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator
Candidate for Praetor

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Endorsements of Decius Iunius Palladius
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:09:31 -0000

Salvete,

For what they are worth, I offer my enorsements of the following
candidates for this election:

Consul: Quintus Fabius Maximus

Quintus Fabius Maximus has served Nova Roma well for years. He served
as praetor twice, as Curule Aedile and as Consul. He puts the needs
of Nova Roma above his own personal ambition and is a steadfast
example of Romanitas. His knowledge of Roman law and history is
unsupassed and he understands the word compromise which is vital for
a politician. He will not make hasty steps that might lead to
disaster but he will listen and he will lead. Quintus Fabius is good
at both. Do not be fooled by negative attacks. Careful consideration
is not obstructionism, do not let people confuse you otherwise.
Quintus Fabius Maximus for Consul!!

Since one can only vote for one candidate for consul I will not
formally endorse another but I will point out that Titus Labienus
Fortunatus is also a fine candidate. He too understands the
importance of compromise and of listening to all views. He has been
involved with the creation of Nova Roman law for years and
understands our system quite well.

Praetor: Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus (that would be me :) for
Praetor! Yes, I shamelessly endorse myself. ;-)

Quaestor: Decimus Iunius Silanus

While all candidates for quaestor will be elected, let me point out
that Decimus Iunius Silanus has served Nova Roma well from almost the
first moment he got here. He has served as scribe and propraetor ad
has excelled as both. Nova Roma is lucky to have him and he deserves
your vote.


Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator Consularis,
Candidate for Praetor


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Sea-change?
From:	"danedwardsuk" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:20:51 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

Maybe it's just me, but all of a sudden I am becoming aware of an ever increasing factionalisation and political polarisation within Nova Roma. Concepts and ideologies defined by new terminologies such as 'modernist' and 'reconstructionist' are being banded about with some ferocity, and, at first sight it seems evident that the 'modernists' are holding sway.

I rather thought that I was detecting a sea-change in Nova Roman politics, prompted by a quite dramatic groundswell of support for candidates who espouse this more modernist point of view. This perception has rather been encouraged by the heavy traffic of post generated on this list endorsing these very same candidates. On closer observation, however, it seems that these endorsements mostly emanate from those who hold this point of view most dear to their hearts. All well and good, of course, but it seems to me that this only serves to exacerbate the factionalism that exists within Nova Roma.

Of course, who am I to judge. It's only natural I suppose, the nature of endorsements being what they are, but it does all rather appear self congratulating. Further, I do wonder if this heavy traffic of endorsements actually translates into support at the polls. Are the 'modernists' really as prevailing as these posts lead us to believe. A week to go till we find out, I suppose.

Just a sunday morning reflection that I thought I'd share with you. With just three hours to go before voting commences I'd like to personally wish all candidates the best of luck in these elections.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 14
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:49:09 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?

**********
Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don’t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting “QUIZ”
in the subject line.
**********

Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones…

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, …


The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 13:
1. Which Roman leader was the first ever to use troops
under his command against Rome itself? (Lucius
Cornelius Sulla)

2. Who competes in an amphitheatre? (gladiators)

3. Who conquered Dacia? (Traianus)

4. Who did Cicero attack in "The Philippics"? (Marcus
Antonius)

5. Who founded Rome (according to the legend)?
(Romulus and his brother Remus, though Remus was
killed by his brother, after which Romulus named the
city after himself).


-----
Points so far:
Julilla Sempronia Magna – 77
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus – 71
Sextus Apollonius Scipio – 63
Titus Labienus Fortunatus – 62
Quintus Lanius Paulinus – 54
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus – 46
Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus – 46
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus – 39
Spurius Postumius Tubertus – 32
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis – 19
Marcus Octavius Germanicus – 19
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia – 19
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix – 18
Marcus Arminius Maior – 17
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus – 13
Gaius Basilicatus Agricola – 10
Lithia Cassia – 9
Gallus Solaris Alexander – 8
Aulus Octavius Serenus – 4
Alexandria Iulia Agrippa – 4


-----


Here are today's questions:

***************

1. Who had the second wall across Britain built?

2. Who had, before becoming emperor, destroyed the
Great Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem?

3. Who is said to have been the father of Romulus and
Remus?

4. Who killed the emperor Claudius I ?
- his wife
- his son
- his brother
- his daughter

5. Who put down the slave revolt of Spartacus in 71
BC?


***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!

PS: we are going in a bit of a hurry... The Ludi are
soon ending the 15 quizzes should be done by then.

Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LAW CASE CONTEST - 1st case results
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:01:28 -0800 (PST)

AVETE OMNES

Here are the results of the Law Case
Contests!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We had 5 wonderful participants:
-Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
-Renata Corva
-Spurius Postumius Tubertus
-Marcus Marcius Rex (judged the first case only)
-Quintus Fabius Maximus

The 4 cases and our citizens' judgements will be
published in 4 messages (this is the first one). A
final message will communicate the complete results
and the winner.
After each case you will also find the historical
judgement given by a Roman jurist.

Please, note that only a few people here have daily to
deal with law, both the participants and the jury.
After each judgement you will find the mark given by a
jury composed of three citizens: Tiberius Apollonius
Cicatrix (Aedilis Plebis), Gnaeus Salix Astur
(Tribunus Plebis) and Manius Constantinus Serapio
(Scriba Aedilis Plebis).

Well, enjoy the game! ;)

--------------------------------
>>>Case #1: The Barber

"While several persons are playing ball, the ball
having been struck too violently it should hit the
hand of barber who is shaving a slave at the time, in
such a way that the throat of the latter is cut by the
razor, the party responsible for negligence is liable
under the Lex Aquila."

Is the barber responsible for injury to someone he is
shaving in a location where it is customary to play
ball or is it the responsibility of the customer to
place himself in a safe position?

>>>Historical judgement:
Proculus judged: That the barber was to blame, and
indeed, if he had the habit of shaving persons in a
place where it is customary to play ball, or where
there was much activity, he is in a certain degree
responsible, although it may not improperly be held
that where anyone seats himself in a barber's chair in
a dangerous place, he has only himself to blame.

--------------------------------

>>>Gnaeus Equitius Marinus judges:
The customer must go to where the barber does
business, if the customer is to obtain the needed
service. Ergo, it is the responsibility of the barber
to provide fair value for payment received, and that
includes a safe shave, without fear of a cut throat. I
find the barber liable for damages due to negligence
under the Lex Aquila.

points: 26/30

---------------------------------
>>>Renata Corva judges:
I must confess my ignorance here on the business
practices of Roman barbers. Presuming they shaved
their customers outdoors, on demand, it is the
barber's responsibility to set up his business in a
location that does not put his customers in undue
danger of injury. However, if the barber worked
indoors, then liability for the slave's injury would
fall on the ball players, for, in such a case, the
barber could be considered to have adequately seen to
his customers' safety by providing an indoor location
for them to receive shaves.

points: 24/30

----------------------------------
>>>Spurius Postumius Tubertus judges:
I would respond to this that the barber is not
responsible for the striking of the ball being too
violently that it should hit his hand and cause the
death or injury of the slave who is the customer of
the barber, and thus, were the barber on trial, I
would vote him not guilty. However, were it the slave
on trial for his own injury, I would too rule him not
guilty in that it is not his responsibility that the
ball was struck too violently. But, the
responsibility, too, is of both parties. The
responsibility is of the barber, for enterprising in
an area known for child play, however of the injured,
in bringing himself to such a place where he knows of
the possibility of injury. I thereby rule that neither
are responsible, and hence, there are no liable
parties under the Lex Aquila.

points: 15/30

---------------------------------------

>>>Marcus Marcius Rex judges:
Before I go into the details of the dangers of Roman
street-life, I will have to write a small preface in
order not to give further credence to the assumption
that all lawyers are shysters, ambulance chasers or
simply just scum of the earth who are willing to
cynically discuss anything without compassion for the
persons involved (and maybe only their wallets in
mind). This of course refers to the fact that the case
concerns the killing of a slave.

SLAVERY
The Lex Aquilia reads in its first Chapter as
following:
Si quis servum servamve alienum alienamve
quadrupedemve pecudem iniuria occiderit, quanti id in
eo anno plurimi fuit, tantum aes dare domino damnas
esto. (roughly translated, forgive my Latin: If
someone, through "iniuria occidere" [MMR: an important
term subject to interpretation] has caused the death
of a male slave belonging to others or a female slave
belonging to others or a four legged herds animal he
shall be sentenced to hand over to the owner as much
money as the object was most worth during that year.)
The Lex Aquilia deals with the question of damages for
objects NOT the injury of persons. This was not always
the case as e.g. the Twelve Tablets Law still treated
the injury of a slave (bone breaking) as a form of
personal injury (8.3. manu fustive si os fregit
libero, CCC, si servo, CL poenam subito). When the Lex
Aquilia was passed in 286BC (as tradition tells us;
more modern research dates it around 200BC) this
attitude had changed to reflect the different social
status slaves had aquired in the meantime. They were -
from then on - regarded as "belongings", for whom you
had to pay a reparation to the owner if you unlawfully
injured or killed them. So when I lay out the case
here it has to be taken in context. One must always be
reminded that it does not in any way mean that I
support slavery or that I do not pity what happened to
the poor guy who just wanted a clean shaven face. The
Lex Aquilia and its case law provided the very
foundation for the continental system of the law of
damages. It is simply these principles I would like to
explore a bit further (although I can barely scratch
the surface here).

THE USUAL SUSPECTS
So, where to begin then? Something has been damaged so
someone must be blamed for it. Or so it seems at least
when watching US TV court room dramas. The story of
the unusual killing of this slave that has survived
until our time would almost certainly have guaranteed
it an episode in sLAve Law. However, it is worth
remembering that the very basic principle with regard
to damaged property is that the owner HIMSELF has to
suffer its consequences. It is only the exception
(e.g. when someone unlawfully contributed to the
occurrence of the damage) that someone else should pay
for it. Lawyers, on the other hand, make a good living
out of exceptions. So the basic assumption to depart
from is that the owner will have to suffer the
financial consequences of his slave being killed. This
is, so to speak, the default position, which will
apply if we do not establish that other people were
involved and are responsible under the law for what
has happened. From the point of view of the owner of
the deceased slave this now could take two directions:
Either towards the barber who led the razor blade or
towards the group of people who so violently played
ball (it must have been a version of soccer judging by
the love of Italians for that game today).

THE PLAYERS
Funny enough the only possible culprit discussed by
Ulpian and Proculus, the two jurists commenting on the
case in Digesta 9.2.11, is the barber (and of course
the poor slave himself). The wording does not exclude
it, of course, but no one seemed to have seriously
considered that the players themselves would be liable
although they clearly provided a cause for the slave's
death. Paulus states in 9.2.10: "For a dangerous game
should be classed as an act of negligence". Maybe he
meant only games like chariot racing, where high risk
of injury is implicit, but why exactly Ulpian and
Julian never took up the liability of the players is
anybody's guess. It could be explained, of course, by
another remark recorded in the digesta: 9.2.52.4
"Where several persons were playing ball, one of them
pushed a small slave while he was trying to pick up
the ball, and the slave fell and broke his leg. The
question arose whether the owner of the slave could
bring suit under the Lex Aquilia against the party
who, by pushing him, had caused him to fall. I
answered that he could not, as this seemed to have
been done rather through accident than through
negligence." Very much like in our modern legal system
the act leading to death must be caused unlawfully
("iniuria") either with intent to achieve the
prohibited result or with negligence (failing in a
duty of care to avoid the prohibited result). Ulpian
and Proculus probably regarded the unintentional
striking of the ball towards the barber as an
"accident" and not as negligent behavior. It obviously
happened near a site, where people had customary
permission to play ball. Therefore no particular duty
of care existed for them to see to it that the ball
was not thrown off field. Hence they did not break the
law in what they were doing. And merely providing a
cause for death is not enough for the Lex Aquilia to
apply: 9.2.3. "Where a male or a female slave has been
unlawfully killed, the Lex Aquilia is applicable. It
is added with reason that it must be unlawfully
killed, as it is not sufficient for it to be merely
killed, but this must be done in violation of law."
BARBER
Having this in mind the case looks a bit different for
the barber of course. Someone wielding a razor before
someone's throat certainly has to take due care not to
cut his customer's throat (of course there is also a
contract involved here, which I will not explore any
further). But did he really cause the death of the
slave? In terms of natural science one would say yes,
as he set a conditio sine qua non for his untimely
demise. However for the Lex Aquilia, which contains an
element of blame, we should only be held accountable
for acts that our will can potentially control. Being
hit by a ball does not seem to qualify as such a
willful act. So in that sense, the barber did not ACT
to cause the death when his hand led the blade and was
hit by the ball. But the barber certainly comes close
to negligence (failing in a duty of care) when he
placed his stool near a site were no diligent barber,
aware of the obvious dangers, would have placed it in
order to perform his business. It is THIS willful act
we have to investigate further. Now to place the stool
near the pitch and to accept the slave as customer
certainly was a conditio sine qua non for his death.
So the barber did cause the death of the slave after
all. It is also evident that no diligent barber would
have placed the stool there, as it is common knowledge
that balls frequently are struck out of field. To
place your barber stool near such a danger and to
offer your services there creates an obvious risk. The
very basic prohibition of negligence implies that you
should not create unlawful risks that might harm other
people's property (and other rights for that matter).
What is lawful and what not depends on leges and on
what sorts of duties of care exist (mainly based on
the experience and deducted by comparison to the acts
of a diligent person engaged in the same activity). As
a duty of care evidently exists and the failure to
follow it caused the death of the slave Proculus
believes that the barber is to blame and liable under
the Lex Aquilia (in my> solution it would only allow
for an "actio in factum", but that would be too
complicated to explain). However Ulpian noted that
there is a factor present here that even though the
barber acted against a duty of care, the slave (whose
behavior we have to attribute to his master) in the
very knowledge of the risk still agreed to be shaved.
The prohibition of negligence is trying to protect you
from risks OTHER people create. It is not trying to
protect you from your own risky behavior. So if it can
be said that your own risky behavior is the real cause
of death (because the very risk you took
materialised), no one else should be blamed for their
otherwise negligent behavior. This is simply not the
intention of the law. It is something else of course
where intent is in play. Another case in the digesta
illustrates this elegantly: 9.2.9.4 "Again, where a
slave is killed by parties who are practicing with
javelins for amusement, the Lex Aquilia is applicable;
but where others are practicing with javelins, and a
slave crosses the place the Lex Aquilia will not
apply, because he should not have rashly crossed the
field where this practice was going on; but still, if
anyone intentionally casts a javelin at him, he will
be liable under the Lex Aquilia."

JUDGEMENT
So who should we follow then, Proculus or Ulpian? It
will depend on whether the slave can be said to have
voluntarily taken over the risk offered by the barber.
If so it became his own (and thereby his master's) and
we will release the barber from liability. If the
barber misled the slave about the risk (e.g. by
telling him that a ball never is struck out of field)
we might find otherwise. So basically it is a
situation of "non liquet". Not enough facts are known
to adequately determine who was right or wrong. As we
lawyers say: "It depends….". Judgment therefore goes
against the one with the burden of proof in the
case….but that is a another bedtime story.

points: 18/30

---------------------------
Quintus Fabius Maximus judges:
This would be a fun one to debate because it turns on
several key points.

The ball players were at fault.
The barber is at fault.
Tycho is at fault.

Since the ball players were too close to the barber
and victum one could argue culpa, and fine them
accordingly. The barber was not at fault except
through casus. And there would be no casus if the ball
players were not there. Barbers usually had
preselected spots that they plied their trade from.
One could toss a ball anywhere in the streets of Rome.


Fine the ball players.

points: 9/30

---------------------------
The 2nd case in next message!

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LAW CASE CONTEST - 2nd case results
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:03:38 -0800 (PST)

>>>Case #2: Mules and Wagons

"Mules were hauling two loaded wagons up the
Capitoline Hill, and the drivers were pushing the
first wagon, which was inclined to one side, in order
that the mules might haul it more easily. In the
meantime the upper wagon began to go back, and as the
drivers were caught between the two wagons they jumped
out of the way and the last wagon was struck by the
first. The second wagon then moved back, crushing a
slave boy who belonged to someone."

Are the men responsible to the owner of the slave for
dangerous action and driving of wagons or is the owner
of the mules responsible for owning and using unstable
and fractious mules?

>>>Historical judgement:
Proculus judged: That it depended on circumstances,
for if the drivers who had hold of the first wagon
voluntarily got out of the way, and the result was
that the mules could not hold the wagon and were
pulled back by its weight, then no action would lie
against the owner of the mules, but an action under
the Lex Aquila could be brought against the men who
held the wagon; for if a party, while he was
supporting something, by voluntarily releasing his
hold enabled it to strike someone, he nevertheless
committed damage, as for instance, where anyone was
driving an ass and did not restrain it, or where
anyone were to discharge a weapon or throw some other
object out of his hand.
But if the mules gave way because they were
frightened, and the drivers, actuated by fear of being
crushed, released their hold on the wagon, then no
action can be brought against the men, but one could
be brought against the owner of the mules. And if
neither the mules nor the men were the cause of the
accident, but the mules could not hold the load, or
while striving to do so slipped and fell and this
caused the wagon to go back, and the men were unable
to support the weight when the wagon was inclined to
one side, then no action could be brought against the
owner of the mules or the men. This, however, is
certain, that no matter what the circumstances were,
no action would lie against the owner of the mules
that were in the rear, as they did not go back
voluntarily, but because they were struck.

------------------------------------------
>>>Gnaeus Equitius Marinus judges:
The mules being dumb animals, they had no way to know
that the men would suddenly stop helping them. Nor is
there any proof offered that the owner of the mules
provided unstable or fractious mules. The drivers are
the ones who knew the weight of the load, and once
they decided to compel the mules up the slope, even
helping them, then the drivers took on the
responsibility for public safety. Ergo, the drivers
are responsible for the injury to the slave.

points: 23/30
----------------------------------

>>>Renata Corva judges:
Anyone who knows mules knows that they are unstable
and fractious by nature. Their owner cannot be blamed
for his mules being what they are. In addition,
nothing in the description of this case states that
the mules were fractious.

My opinion is that the slave owner should be
recompensed by the drivers of the first wagon, who
jumped out of the way, rather than attempting to
lighten the wagon's load or do their job of driving
the mules.

points: 23/30

-------------------------------

>>>Spurius Postumius Tubertus judges:
Here, the case is quite odd, and hopefully never
happened too much. However, it seems to me that the
two men are responsible to the owner of the slave, for
dangerous action. In wedging themselves between the
two wagons, though to haul it more quickly up the
hill, they were negligent of the potential movement of
the second wagon, as well as what such movement may
cause. However, the slave boy himself shares in some
of the responsibility, for placing himself so close
behind the second wagon as it should have been known
or expected that it may revert and have the potential
to therefore strike him violently and in a manner very
unwelcome. My ruling, then, is against the two men,
whom I find responsible for the events that happened.

points: 21/30
-----------------------

>>> Quintus Fabius Maximus judges:
While the details are lacking, I assume that the mules
were owned by the same person who owed the wagons. The
drivers being freemen. By losing control of the wagons
by using a risky process to drive them, the drivers
were clearly at fault. Granted the mules caused the
original situation, but the drivers acted poorly in
fixing the problem and used a risky solution. The
drivers are guilty of culpa in the situation of mule
control, and had they known that the mules were
unreliable before they started out up hill I'd even
argue dolus. However since I want a conviction I'll go
with culpa and fine them accordingly.

points:24/30

-------------------------------
The 3rd case in next message!

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman Philosophy list
From:	"J. Meuleman" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:27:11 +0100

Salve Diana!
Waarom zijn we nog wakker? (=why are we both still awake).Must be that
nothing interesting is on Kanaal 2 of VT4 tonight :-)

MOS: Hmm... Altijd een beetje een nachtuil geweest. Mijn bioritme tijdens de week zal er ook wel iets voor tussen zitten :). (Hmm... Always been a bit of a night owl. My biorhythm during the week will also have had something to do with it :)).

I hope that Saturninus' list has more success, but I am not too hopeful
after reading your email :-)

MOS: As long as there's hope, there's life!

Vale bene!
Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LAW CASE CONTEST - 3rd case results
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:05:54 -0800 (PST)

>>>Case #3: Hogs and Wolves

"Wolves carried away some hogs from my shepherds; the
tenant of an adjoining farm, having pursued the wolves
with strong and powerful dogs, which he kept for the
protection of his flocks, took the hogs away from the
wolves. . . . [The] shepherd claimed the hogs."

Are the hogs the legal property of the shepherd who
saved them or are they still the rightful property of
their original owners?

>>>Historical judgement:
Promponius judged: That as where the animals were
captured on sea or land and regained their natural
freedom, they ceased to belong to those who took them,
so, where marine or terrestrial animals deprive us of
property, it ceases to be ours when the said animals
have escaped beyond our pursuit. . . . Property
continues to be ours as long as it can be recovered. .
. . Anything which is taken away by a wolf will
continue to be ours as long as it can be recovered. .
. . [The man] did not restore the hogs to [the]
shepherd when he demanded them; he is held to have
suppressed and concealed them, and therefore I think
that he will be liable to an action on the ground of
theft, as well as to produce the property in court.

-----------------------------------

>>>Gnaeus Equitius Marinus judges:
Possession is 99% of the law. Especially so in this
case, where the original owners could not protect
their property from the wolves. Once the wolves took
possession of the hogs by force, the lives of the hogs
would reasonably be forfeit. Ergo, the hogs belong to
the man who courageously rescued them from the wolves.


points: 9/30

------------------------------
>>>Renata Corva judges:
The hogs remain the property of their original owner.
However, the owner might out of courtesy be gracious
enough to give out of gratitude a gift to the person
who saved his hogs, either of meat or of stud service.
However, a court cannot and will not force someone to
give a gift.

points: 29/30

-----------------------------------
>>>Spurius Postumius Tubertus judges:
As ambiguous a ruling as one could give regarding
this, I feel greatly conflicted as to what sort of a
ruling to give on this, and such I am glad that I
weren't alive to preside over this case whenever it
was brought to court. However, reading the case, it
would appear that both sides have valid claims to the
hogs. In the first place, the shepherds had rightfully
owned them to begin with, and therefore have their
claim to the hogs. But, in the second place, the
tenant shepherd also has valid claim to the hogs,
himself having gone through troubles of his own will
to obtain the hogs from the wolves whom had taken
them. In this we can easily see the ambiguity.
Thus, my ruling is that the hogs shall be confiscated,
and sold by the State for an amount concurrent with
the time and economic status of things, and the amount
thus obtained by the State from the sale of such hogs
shall then be divided between the shepherds and the
tenant.

points: 15/30

---------------------------------
>>>Quintus Fabius Maximus judges:
No, with the failure of the owner to protect his
property and and with the hogs lost anyway, the tenant
earned them. However, if barter was requested for
their return, I'd allow that.

points: 8/30

--------------------------
The last case in next message!

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LAW CASE CONTEST - 4th case results
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:07:58 -0800 (PST)

>>>Case #4: Jewels--the Will, and the Heir

"I gave pearls and gold to Antonia Tertylla. She
afterwards took possession of the jewels and then died
without the valuables being listed in her will. Her
heir converted the pearls and gold into a necklace for
her own use. I asked if these valuables, since they
were not in their original form, had been added to,
were not listed in the will, and did not belong to the
heir should be returned to me."

Do the jewels belong to the gift giver because they
were not listed in the will or are all properties
owned by Antonia now possessions of her heir?

>>>Historical judgement:
Marcellus judged: That the demand [for the jewels
(pearls and gold)] cannot be made. For how can a
legacy or a trust be held to exist when what is given
by a will does not retain its original character? For
the bequest is, as it were, extinguished, so that in
the meantime it is lost sight of, and hence by this
dismemberment and change the intention of the
bequestor also appears to have been altered.

-----------------------------------
>>>Gnaeus Equitius Marinus judges:
A gift is just that, a gift. Once given, the property
passes into the possession of the person the gift has
been given to. If that person dies and leaves her
estate to an heir, then under the law the entirety of
her estate, and not just such parts are may be
enumerated in her will, belong to the heir. Had the
plaintiff wished to have the pearls and gold returned
later, she should have executed a contract with
Antonia making this clear. A gift freely given ought
not, under the law, ever be required to be returned to
the giver. Ergo, the gold and pearls - having been
part of Antonia's estate at the time of her death -
are rightfully now the property of her heir.

points: 29/30

-------------------------------------
>>>Renata Corva:
The jewels and gold remain part of Antonia Tertylla's
estate. When one gives a gift, one does not give it in
expectation of receiving it back; a gift is a gift
forever. As the remainder of Antonia Tertylla's wealth
was bequeathed to her heir, one could presume by
induction that she would in all likelihood have also
bequeathed the gift in question to her heir, as well.
Thus, the heir is entitled to keep the jewels, even
though they were not listed in the will.

points: 29/30

-----------------------------------
>>>Spurius Postumius Tubertus judges:
This case is clearly one of personal judgement, to be
done by the private citizens, and not to be handled as
an affair of the State. However, since it has become
one, we must judge it as fairly as we may. The giver
of the gift has no rightful claim to the jewels,
having given them to Antonia Tertylla. The heir of
Antonia Tertylla, I would submit, has thus rightful
claim to all objects of her ancestor that were not in
the will, being that it is customary and accepted that
the heir has claim to the belongings of the ancestor,
unless the ancestor explicitly states otherwise, and
in this case, the ancestor did not do so.
Therefore, I rule that the heir of Antonia Tertylla
rightfully owns the possessions sought by the gift
giver.

points: 27/30

-----------------------------------
>>>Quintus Fabius Maximus judges:
Why weren't they listed? Since wills were an important
part of Roman life, all feared of dying in intestate.
Anyway he had donated the jewels. According to the lex
Cincia, they become her property. But the heir changed
their form. That invlidates the lex, her death
intestate invilidates the heirs claim. The donar may
exercise his right and demand the return. However
under donationis exceptio the heir may offer to buy
the jewels for fair market value.

points:11/30

---------------------------------
The final results in next message!

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] ***LAW CASE CONTEST*** FINAL RESULTS!!!
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:12:20 -0800 (PST)

AVETE OMNES

Here below you can find the general results of the Law
Case Contest.

>>>Case #1 - The Barber
-Gnaeus Equitius Marinus: 26/30
-Renata Corva: 24/30
-Spurius Postumius Tubertus: 15/30
-Marcus Marcius Rex: 18/30
-Quintus Fabius Maximus: 9/30

The winner of the first case if Gnaeus Equitius
Marinus!

>>>Case #2: Mules and Wagons
-Gnaeus Equitius Marinus: 23/30
-Renata Corva: 23/39
-Spurius Postumius Tubertus: 21/30
-Quintus Fabius Maximus: 24/30

The winner of the second case is Quintus Fabius
Maximus!

>>>Case #3: Hogs and Wolves
-Gnaeus Equitius Marinus: 9/30
-Renata Corva: 29/30
-Spurius Postumius Tubertus: 15/30
-Quintus Fabius Maximus: 8/30

The winner of the third case is Renata Corva!

>>>Case #4: Jewels--the Will, and the Heir
-Gnaeus Equitius Marinus: 29/30
-Renata Corva: 29/30
-Spurius Postumius Tubertus: 27/30
-Quintus Fabius Maximus: 11/30

The winners of the foruth case are ex aequo Gnaeus
Equitius Marinus and Renata Corva!

>>>FINAL RESULTS<<<

WINNER - Renata Corva: 24+23+29+29 = 105
2nd - Gnaeus Equitius Marinus: 26+23+9+29 = 87
3rd - Spurius Postumius Tubertus: 15+21+15+27 = 78
4th - Quintus Fabius Maximus: 9+24+8+11 = 52
5th - Marcus Marcius Rex: 18

Congratulations to Renata Corva!!!!!!!! :)

Thank you for taking part to the Law Case Contest of
the Ludi Plebei!!!!!!!!!

OPTIME VALETE

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:33:19 EST

In a message dated 11/17/2002 12:20:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mjk@datanet.ab.ca writes:

> I might add, as I just wrote to Constantina that God or Gods help
> Religio Romano, Wiccan or other pagan religions if Al Queda gets its
> way. They have some respect for Christianity since they are the
> children of the book of Abraham but utter contempt for Pagans. I read
> earlier today that you can face beheading in Saudi Arabia for
> apostasy (turning your back on Islam) or practicing witchcraft. I
> have the Koran beside me, checked it out and these points are made
> clear; respect the Christians and Jews but open season on paganism.
> Hopefully the secular governments in some of the more powerful
> Islamic countries will be in power for some time to come.

Islam has no real tolerance for Paganism. I have been to the United Arab
Emirates, and to Saudi Arabia both. In Saudi they don't play games. A very
influential school of though in Saudi Arabia is Wahabbism after a man named
Abd al-Wahabb. It is the school of thought that produced Osmama Bin Laden,
and other extremists. They interpret the Quran very fundamentally, which can
be scary.

Paganism in Arabia was very harsh, and not the virtue filled faith some may
think. Islam did a great service to the Arab peoples in the way of morals
and ethics, giving woman the right to inherit property, and did away with
female infanticide. However, over the years much of Arab cultural baggage
has crept back into their lives under the guise of Islam (ie., female
circumcision and wearing the burqa), which is a horrible thing.

I do agree completely, however, that fundamentalist Islam (just like
fundamentalist Christianity or Judaism) would not think twice to eliminate
all signs of Paganism. I will give the Catholics my respect, they did
preserve a lot (not as much as I would have liked -- but a great deal).

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:38:32 EST

In a message dated 11/17/2002 12:52:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
spqr753@msn.com writes:

> The only secular government in the Muslim world is Turkey. The Saudi and
> Egyptian governments encourage the fundamental movements because it takes
> the blame away from the ruling elites that the Arab world is no longer the
> center of the universe.

Turkey was not always secular. When the sacked Constantinople they converted
the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque, but did not change any of the frescos. They
took down the Iconostasis, but left much of the wall ornamentation. This is
very interesting indeed.

Regarding secular governments...Syria is secular, and so is Jordan, Iraq, and
Indonesia I believe. I am not as "up" on these things as I once was.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:32:22 -0000

Salvete Gentlemen,

Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, even Iraq, Indonesia
and many of the African contries have secular governments which have
jailed or imprisoned Islamic fundementalist leaders. They are more
lack, you can even buy alcoholic berverages as a tourist etc.

I just checked a little on Idol destruction. It seems to be more of a
disease of fundementalist Islamics. The priniciple of Islam is that
forced conversion is worthless. In fairness the Muslims ruled Hindu
India for 1000 years and did not destroy the statues. Similarily the
Sphinx and statues in Egypt are still there. The Koran commands
Muslims not to insult the "false" Gods worshiped by other peoples
lest they retaliate and hurl insults at God in their ignorance.
Mohammed did order the destruction of idols in Arabia. He did however
make treaties with the Christians and Zorastians. This did bind the
Muslim community to protect the statues of Jesus and the shrines to
the fire god so in future Muslim armies came into a land they left
the idols alone.

The Taliban argued that there were no minority religions left in
Afghanistan and no Buddists for 1000 years. Since no one was left
there to worship the statues they could rightly be destroyed.(Talk
about technicalities)

Well - that may explain Haiga Sophia, Modius. Looks like a lot of
those fundementalists ought to go back to school and get some more
lessons on the Koran. Good to hear from you again!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

References :Koran, Idiots Guide to Understanding Islam - Yahiha
Emerick - 2002




--- In Nova-Roma@y..., AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/17/2002 12:52:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> spqr753@m... writes:
>
> > The only secular government in the Muslim world is Turkey. The
Saudi and
> > Egyptian governments encourage the fundamental movements because
it takes
> > the blame away from the ruling elites that the Arab world is no
longer the
> > center of the universe.


>
> Turkey was not always secular. When the sacked Constantinople they
converted
> the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque, but did not change any of the
frescos. They
> took down the Iconostasis, but left much of the wall
ornamentation. This is
> very interesting indeed.
>
> Regarding secular governments...Syria is secular, and so is Jordan,
Iraq, and
> Indonesia I believe. I am not as "up" on these things as I once
was.
>
> In Fellowship:
>
> G. Modius Athanasius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Elections Have Arrived.
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:09:43 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

Today marks the start of voting for the magistrates
who will lead the Res Publica for the comming year.
The Cista will soon be opened, and will allready have
been opened by the time many of you read this post.

The Election guide at
http://www.novaroma.org/election/2755/
contains statements from all the canidates. If you
haven't decided who to support I recomend reading this
guide prior to voting.

I Will not make a plea for your vote at this time, for
myself or any other canidate, My Plea is that you take
part in the voting, for our Res Publica is doomed if
it's citizens become apathetic about selecting our
magistrates.

The Canidates have spoken, now it's time for you, the
citizens of Nova Roma to reply by casting your votes.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:06:32 +0100

Salve Quirites and Salve Honorable G. Modius Athanasius!

Making the Arabic culture or Islam the Adversary will not be correct.
We need some effort to be correct and balanced here. It is good to
see You Honorable G. Modius Athanasius providing such a point of view.

> > I might add, as I just wrote to Constantina that God or Gods help
>> Religio Romano, Wiccan or other pagan religions if Al Queda gets its
>> way. They have some respect for Christianity since they are the
>> children of the book of Abraham but utter contempt for Pagans. I read
>> earlier today that you can face beheading in Saudi Arabia for
>> apostasy (turning your back on Islam) or practicing witchcraft. I
>> have the Koran beside me, checked it out and these points are made
>> clear; respect the Christians and Jews but open season on paganism.
>> Hopefully the secular governments in some of the more powerful
>> Islamic countries will be in power for some time to come.
>
>Islam has no real tolerance for Paganism. I have been to the United Arab
>Emirates, and to Saudi Arabia both. In Saudi they don't play games. A very
>influential school of though in Saudi Arabia is Wahabbism after a man named
>Abd al-Wahabb. It is the school of thought that produced Osmama Bin Laden,
>and other extremists. They interpret the Quran very fundamentally, which can
>be scary.

Yes, this is correct. Still no one know how many in Saudi-Arabia who
want a change. At times it seems as if there is a weak democratic
movement even there. I think it is our duty to support them. Still
the Western countries need the oil and thus supports the dictatorship
of the royal family in Saudi-Arabia.

>Paganism in Arabia was very harsh, and not the virtue filled faith some may
>think. Islam did a great service to the Arab peoples in the way of morals
>and ethics, giving woman the right to inherit property, and did away with
>female infanticide. However, over the years much of Arab cultural baggage
>has crept back into their lives under the guise of Islam (ie., female
>circumcision and wearing the burqa), which is a horrible thing.

Yes it is true, again. ;-) Islam once meant progress. Our
mathematical numbers come through the Arabs, they were great
mathematicians, medical scientists and astronomers. When the
Crusaders hit the Middle East, the Arabs had a culture that was much
higher in some respects.

>I do agree completely, however, that fundamentalist Islam (just like
>fundamentalist Christianity or Judaism) would not think twice to eliminate
>all signs of Paganism. I will give the Catholics my respect, they did
>preserve a lot (not as much as I would have liked -- but a great deal).

Fundamentalism and extremism of any kind is a threat to civilization
and democracy where ever it is found. Be it in Europe, Amerca, Asia
or anywhere or be it Christian, Muslim, Pagan or any other kind of
fundamentalism or extremism.

>In Fellowship:
>
>G. Modius Athanasius

Still I am afraid that we by starting such a discussion will slide
slightly and further off topic. I have stated my position, but don't
intend to drive this issue further. As I have no intension to hurt
any one by a discussion on religion, a field were I try to be as
tolerant as possible.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
The Campaign-site of "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for Consul 2756"
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman Philosophy list
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:14:04 -0600

All sensible Romans should stay away from philosophy







The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Roman Philosophy list


Salve Solaris,

Waarom zijn we nog wakker? (=why are we both still awake).Must be that
nothing interesting is on Kanaal 2 of VT4 tonight :-)

>There once was an NR Philosophy list (hosted by yours truly :o)) but I
>deleted the list because, even though two or three people were trying to
>keep it alive, nothing of real interest happened there, provided that
>*something* was happening... So, since it was collecting dust, I deleted
>it... The sad story of a newsgroup :o(.

I hope that Saturninus' list has more success, but I am not too hopeful
after reading your email :-)

Slaap lekker!
vale,
Diana




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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:33:15 -0800 (PST)

--- Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:
> Salvete Gentlemen,
SNIP
>
> The Taliban argued that there were no minority
> religions left in
> Afghanistan and no Buddists for 1000 years. Since no
> one was left
> there to worship the statues they could rightly be
> destroyed.(Talk
> about technicalities)
>

Groups like the Taliban can make the same argument
about the "idols" in Egypt, North Africa, and Turkey.

Right now Turkey is the prime concern. An Islamic
party has won the recent elections there. They have
toned done thier rhetoric of late, but the party's
leader has been arrested in the past for attacks on
the Secular Repubic. It remains to be seen if they
will attempt to follow the more radical concepts they
have espoused in the past, and if they do if the
Turkish Military will respond to a threat to the
Secular nature of the Turkish goovernment as it has in
the past, by assuming power.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Election Days!
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:53:12 -0000

Savete omnes,

Good luck to all the candidates! Just remember to do your civic duty
and vote. Those who cannot be bothered to vote should have nothing to
say or complain about to our government over the next year.

Vale bene!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"sceptia" <sceptia@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:59:10 -0000

Salve quirite

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> All sensible Romans should stay away from philosophy
>

Why this statement? Philosophy is quite important for the development
of an accurate world. If we should be away from it, no sciences, no
ethics, no laws could be created.
Imagine Roma without those insensible romans like Seneca, Marcus
Aurelius, Horatius, Plinius the young, Lucretius, the stoics, the
sceptics... our world can't be wihtout, and the most sensible citizen
is this one who tries to understand the incredible world that
sorrounds him. So I invite you and any other citizen to this list.
Don't be afraid!! :-D

Vale,

L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
- Legatus Externis Rebus Hispania Provinciae -
- Praeceptor Academiae Thules -
- Decurio Hispano -

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:05:40 -0800 (PST)

--- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@telia.com> wrote:
> Salve Quirites and Salve Honorable G. Modius
> Athanasius!
>
> Making the Arabic culture or Islam the Adversary
> will not be correct.
> We need some effort to be correct and balanced here.
> It is good to
> see You Honorable G. Modius Athanasius providing
> such a point of view.
>
The battle with Islamic Fundementalism is no more a
fight against the Arabian peoples and Culture than the
battle against Nazism was a fight against the German
people and culture

It is a fight against a group that uses a sick
ideology to obtain power within a larger culture and
to use that power to obtain domination over other
nations.

Al Qaeda makes no secrect of it's long term goals, to
unite the Islamic world under a new Calphiate which
would be similar to the Taliban government of
Afghanistan, and for this new power to resume the
Conquests of other nations like the Caliphs did in the
8th Century CE.

The Islamic Fundementalist movement is as big a threat
as Nazism was, and it's goals are a threat to the
goals of Nova Roma along with the rest of Western
Civilazation.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:08:15 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Groups like the Taliban can make the same argument
> about the "idols" in Egypt, North Africa, and Turkey.
<snip>

At the risk of sliding further off topic; "the three pre-
islamic Arab Goddesses: ALLAT, MANAT and UZZA". The one lesson we
should learn from history is that fundamentalism in any form is
dangerous to free thought, artistic expression, and human development
when those that embrace a fundamentalist mindset use physical force
rather than sound intellectual arguments to spread their religious
and political belief system.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Please Vote
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:09:34 -0000

Salve,

Election Day is upon us. Please exercise your right to vote. If you
don't vote you have no one to blame but yourself when things don't
turn out the way you wished.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:14:32 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> All sensible Romans should stay away from philosophy

Why is this? Logic is a philosophy. Without Logic there would be no
science, law, or even basic common sense.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:19:40 -0000

Salvete omnes,

No, there's no need for religious debate at all. The main point here
is that if the Caliphate of Al Qaueda ever got into power throughout
the world someday all Nova Romans would suffer. We would never be
able to realize our dreams, have our cities and culture and that goes
for polytheists and monotheists as well.

Vale - Quintus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Voter Codes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:30:35 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Quirites,

Remeber to check your voter codes!

I Recived a new voter code earlier this week, and I
assume that the rest of you also got a new code. If
you didn't check with the Censors before trying to
vote.

Make your vote count.
Use the new Voter Code.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voter Codes
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:35:24 -0600 (CST)

Salve Luci Sicini,

> Remeber to check your voter codes!
>
> I Recived a new voter code earlier this week, and I
> assume that the rest of you also got a new code. If
> you didn't check with the Censors before trying to
> vote.

The old codes were three letters followed by three digits.

The new codes are one digit, three letters, two digits.

The format was changed so that the software could easily detect
the use of the old codes, and present an error message rather
than a ballot form. It won't be possible to place a vote with
last year's codes.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Codes
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:36:24 -0000

Salve Druse,

I got mine several days ago. What time (I'm Rocky mountain time)are
the voting locations going up?

Thanks - Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Codes
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:39:57 -0600 (CST)

> I got mine several days ago. What time (I'm Rocky mountain time)are
> the voting locations going up?

11.01 central (22 minutes from now).

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Candidate for Censor 2756:
http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voter Codes
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:52:03 -0000

Salve Marce>Octavi!

Thank you!

Quintus --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
> Candidate for Censor 2756:
> http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor/


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:47:03 -0600

There is logic, and there is reality and Ultimate Truth, both of which defy logic in many instances. All philosophies are futile because they only lead to inaction.






The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:14 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list


Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> All sensible Romans should stay away from philosophy

Why is this? Logic is a philosophy. Without Logic there would be no
science, law, or even basic common sense.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus




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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:30:25 -0500

Salve G. Modius Athanasius

Modern Turkey, the nation set up as a result of WWI, was set up as a SECULAR NATION with the military given the responsibly to enforce secularism written in the Constitution .

Vale,
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 8:39 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses

In a message dated 11/17/2002 12:52:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
spqr753@msn.com writes:

> The only secular government in the Muslim world is Turkey. The Saudi and
> Egyptian governments encourage the fundamental movements because it takes
> the blame away from the ruling elites that the Arab world is no longer the
> center of the universe.

Turkey was not always secular. When the sacked Constantinople they converted
the Hagia Sophia to a Mosque, but did not change any of the frescos. They
took down the Iconostasis, but left much of the wall ornamentation. This is
very interesting indeed.

Regarding secular governments...Syria is secular, and so is Jordan, Iraq, and
Indonesia I believe. I am not as "up" on these things as I once was.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:45:18 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Omnes,

> The battle with Islamic Fundementalism is no more a
> fight against the Arabian peoples and Culture than the
> battle against Nazism was a fight against the German
> people and culture

your statement is not accurate and dangerous.
I was born in Marseille, France, where 30% of the population is islamic. I know a lot of
islamic people and 99,99% of them are against Al Quaeda.
I am now living in Germany, my Dad has been deported in a camp during the war, and I can
tell you that not all German were nazi and that the war was against an idea and not
against the German people.
If you want more information, write me off list, as this topic is not appropriate here.

Vale,

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Candidate for Quaestor

My program at: http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"J. Meuleman" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:49:21 +0100

Salve Gai Basilicate,
<< There is logic, and there is reality and Ultimate Truth, both of which defy logic in many instances. All philosophies are futile because they only lead to inaction.>>

Prove it.

Vale bene,
Solaris


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:46:25 -0600

Seneca: Wasn't he the tutor of that great Emperor Nero? He did good work on that one.
Marcus Aurelius: His reputation is shadowed by his persecution of Christians, whom he considered superstitious and immoral. The fierce cruelty, with which the persecution was carried out in Gaul, was not consistent with his
writings. And he didn't follow of the example of the adoptive Emperors in choosing the best man to succeed him, but allowed his son to rule, who turned out to be the worst of the bad Emperors. For all his philosophy, Aurelius spent most of his life at war and killing his fellow man. Although he tried where he could to put his philosophy into action, most notably his lenient treatment of Cassius, his writings are more like the hopeful pronouncements of how life should be, than how it really is.
Horatius: Augustan butt kisser
Pliny the Younger: Never considered him a philospher. Historian, letters of advice to young men, notes of greeting and inquiry, and descriptions of scenes of natural beauty or of natural curiosities. On occasion initiates a moral discussion of a problem.
Lucretius: I had to read de rerum natura in the latin in college. Good lord it was awful. An Epicurean, where the "Wise Man" lives by means of a kind of hedonistic calculus, to estimate the comparative value of the different kinds of pleasurable affections so as to win for himself the maximum of mental satisfaction and repose throughout his life. Virtue, and the special virtues, are of value only in so far as they contribute to this end. Right and wrong become matters of merely subjective feeling. Religion was abolished as the cause of intolerable mental "perturbation," and the gods were banished to the intermundia. Hmm.

Don't get me wrong. Philosophy is fun, no doubt about it. It is semi-useful. I believe most non-organic mental illness to be attributed to a wrong "life philosophy". My statement was meant to be more a joke than anything. But many of our ancient forefathers would have wholeheartedly agreed with my original statement, and no error.

Vale!

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola









The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: sceptia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 9:59 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list


Salve quirite

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> All sensible Romans should stay away from philosophy
>

Why this statement? Philosophy is quite important for the development
of an accurate world. If we should be away from it, no sciences, no
ethics, no laws could be created.
Imagine Roma without those insensible romans like Seneca, Marcus
Aurelius, Horatius, Plinius the young, Lucretius, the stoics, the
sceptics... our world can't be wihtout, and the most sensible citizen
is this one who tries to understand the incredible world that
sorrounds him. So I invite you and any other citizen to this list.
Don't be afraid!! :-D

Vale,

L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
- Legatus Externis Rebus Hispania Provinciae -
- Praeceptor Academiae Thules -
- Decurio Hispano -


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:47:36 -0600

Which part do youy disagree?







The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Meuleman
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list


Salve Gai Basilicate,
<< There is logic, and there is reality and Ultimate Truth, both of which defy logic in many instances. All philosophies are futile because they only lead to inaction.>>

Prove it.

Vale bene,
Solaris


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:57:29 -0800 (PST)

You mistake my meaning, I'll try to make it clearer.

The battle against Islamic Fundementalism is a fight
against those who hold a dangrous and bigoted view,
NOT against all Arabs or Muslams, most of whom are
repulsed by travesty that Al Qaeda preaches as Islam.

The fight against Nazism was NOT directed at the
German people, rather one of it's goals was to
liberate the German people from a dangrous and bigoted
group that had taken control of the German state.

--- Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> > The battle with Islamic Fundementalism is no more
> a
> > fight against the Arabian peoples and Culture than
> the
> > battle against Nazism was a fight against the
> German
> > people and culture
>
> your statement is not accurate and dangerous.
> I was born in Marseille, France, where 30% of the
> population is islamic. I know a lot of
> islamic people and 99,99% of them are against Al
> Quaeda.
> I am now living in Germany, my Dad has been deported
> in a camp during the war, and I can
> tell you that not all German were nazi and that the
> war was against an idea and not
> against the German people.
> If you want more information, write me off list, as
> this topic is not appropriate here.
>
> Vale,
>
> =====
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
>
> Propraetor Galliae
> Candidate for Quaestor
>
> My program at:
> http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Halteres
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:51:56 -0600

Check this out. I tried to get an unergraduate research grant to study this subject at KU. The powers that be said "no".
http://www.msnbc.com/news/834626.asp




The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] ATTENTION INVALID VOTER CODES
From:	"rabotnik@" <rabotnik@wp.pl>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:58:22 -0000

Salvete!

votes nr 23005, 24007, 21007 are invalid with unknown voter codes
voters! pay attention please for codes you write down

Valete bene!

Petrus Domitianus AL
Rogator NR

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Temple to Gay Love
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:54:07 -0600

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_710095.html







The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Attention Voters! How Rogators handle invalid voter codes
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:11:22 -0000

Attention cives NovaRomani!

Elections have commenced, and you will occasionally receive notices
from the Rogatores about voting, as Rogator Petrus Domitianus has
done; this will be the first in a series that will be issued while
elections are taking place.

New voter codes have been issued, so it is of vital importance that
you enter your voter code exactly as given. New codes are one digit,
three UPPERCASE letters, two digits, thus: 9AA999.

Voter codes may be obtained by logging in to your NovaRoma profile:

First, visit the Album Civium page:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/gentes

Find you gens, then click on the number of cives. Find your name and
click on it to open your citizen profile. Click on "get voter code"
and follow the instructions. Your voter code will be e-mailed to you
(so this would be an excellent time to ensure your correct e-mail
address is listed in your profile).

For questions not covered by my attempts here, or if your voter code
does not arrive within a couple of hours, write the censors: censors
@ novaroma dot org.


Bonam Fortunam to all the candidates!

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 14
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:11:49 -0600

Salve

Titus Labienus Fortunatus

> 1. Who had the second wall across Britain built?

Antoninus Pius

> 2. Who had, before becoming emperor, destroyed the
> Great Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem?

Titus Flavius Vespasianus

> 3. Who is said to have been the father of Romulus and
> Remus?

Mars

> 4. Who killed the emperor Claudius I ?

- his wife
> 5. Who put down the slave revolt of Spartacus in 71
> BC?

Marcus Licinius Crassus

Vale
Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Three Goddesses
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:15:26 -0800 (PST)

Salve Druse,

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You mistake my meaning, I'll try to make it clearer.
>
> The battle against Islamic Fundementalism is a fight
> against those who hold a dangrous and bigoted view,
> NOT against all Arabs or Muslams, most of whom are
> repulsed by travesty that Al Qaeda preaches as Islam.
>
> The fight against Nazism was NOT directed at the
> German people, rather one of it's goals was to
> liberate the German people from a dangrous and bigoted
> group that had taken control of the German state.

My mistake, it is clear now!!

Vale,


=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Propraetor Galliae
Candidate for Quaestor

My program at: http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] vote fac
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:15:13 +0100

v o t e
||||||||||||| |||||| ||||||||||||
||| ||| ||| |||
|||||||||| |||||||||||||| |||
||| ||| ||| |||
||| ||| ||| |||||||||||||
____________________
@ F.APVLVS CAESAR @
@ for @
@ CURULE AEDILE @
@ __ __@
|| § § § § § § § ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
|| | | | | | | | ||
----------------------------
PANEM ET CIRCENSES
----------------------------



§ VOTE ME AS CURULE AEDILE §
http://italia.novaroma.org/fac/index.htm



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:22:16 -0600

Salve Gai Basilicate

> There is logic, and there is reality and Ultimate Truth, both of
> which defy logic in many instances. All philosophies are futile
> because they only lead to inaction.

Any honest philosopher will freely admit that there is a limit to both
our knowledge and the applicability of logic. However, philosophy is as
much about self-examination and discovering how to live well as it is
about contemplating navels. The vast majority of beneficial human
advances, in science and otherwise, are attributable to philosophy.
Indeed, the teachings of the Cynics and Stoics form the foundation of
Roman law and, by extension, the laws of the modern West. The Pax
Deorum was and is at its root a philosophical concept.

Yes, there will always be things we do not understand, but philosophy in
all its myriad forms is what allows us to better our condition and our
selves.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 14
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:26:29 -0600

Salvete

My apologies for sending my responses to the list. Yet more proof that
I'm only human.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Attention Voters! Invalid voter codes
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:30:31 -0000

The cives with the following codes have submitted invalid or
malformed voter codes:

#23013 and #24019

Please refer to my previous posting for instructions on obtaining a
valid voter code.

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Temple to Gay Love
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:52:13 -0800 (PST)

A Very misleading headline.

The short lived cult of Antonius was directed at the
Emperor's favorite, the person, and not at the bond
between them.

--- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
wrote:
> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_710095.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
> 417 East 13th Street
> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> (816).471.2111
> (816).510.0072(cell)
> (816).471.8412(Fax)
> The information contained in this e-mail message is
> attorney privileged and confidential information
> intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity named. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
> responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
> you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please immediately notify
> the sender by using the contact information in the
> "reply to" field above and return the original
> message to the sender. Thank you.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Elections
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:03:46 -0500

Romans! Romans!
Elect! Elect! Elect!

Tiberius
Galerus

Paulinus

Quaestor and
Curator Differium
PLEASE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: update century points and offices
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:22:46 +0100

Franciscus Apulus Caesar M Arminius Maior S.P.D.

> You is right, Francisce, i missed two of your edicts:
> Edict XI and XII, naming Aurelia Iulia Pulcra and
> Sempronia Solaria Messalina as scribes propraetorici,
> in 13 sept..
> They are updated now.

Thank you very much!

> By the way, im uploading a list of provincial edicts
> to the files section of the website. If my colleagues
> propraetores see that there are some edict missing,
> please contact me.
> The archive (provedic.doc) is in the MS Word format,
> and have the titles of approx. 300 provincial edicts.

Well done, Amice. I'll check it as soon as possible and I'll give you news
about.

And good luck for your elections!

Vale
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
§ VOTE ME AS CURULE AEDILE §
http://italia.novaroma.org/fac/index.htm
-------------------------------------------
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Quaestor Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Cohors Aedilis C. Fabius Quintilianus -
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"J. Meuleman" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:35:37 +0100

Salve Gai Basilicate,

Most of the philosophers (although I agree that Plinius doesn't qualify one, and I have my doubts about Horatius) you mention, you attack on their personality, and not on what they thought...
Don't get me wrong. Philosophy is fun, no doubt about it. It is semi-useful. I believe most non-organic mental illness to be attributed to a wrong "life philosophy". My statement was meant to be more a joke than anything. But many of our ancient forefathers would have wholeheartedly agreed with my original statement, and no error.


Perhaps. Many of them might have disagreed as well... ;)

Vale bene!
Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] attention Lex repeated at comitia plebis & comitia populi
From:	"Daniel Villanueva" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:57:24 -0300

Salvete omnes.
The Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione is repeated both at the Comitia Plebis Tributa & the comitia Populi Tributa, which means we are voting twice for that lex.
I realized that after voting.
Valete bene
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Proprætor provincialis Argentinæ
Candidate for Tribunus Plebis



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform,
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:08:19 -0500

Salve,

I just made a quick check of the Gens list (and stopped counting a 50) at all the one person Gens. I guess this is my basic question is how does one person, even if call pater or mater of a Gen, constitute a " Family"? Are all these heads of families widows and widowers with no children? Just something to make one go HMMMMMMMMM!!

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

PS Don't forget to vote! It's easy, its painless and its the law. ( well it should be)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] attention Lex repeated at comitia plebis & comitia populi
From:	"Gnaeus Octavius Noricus" <cn.octavius.noricus@gmx.at>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:07:14 +0100

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
<<The Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione is repeated both at the Comitia Plebis Tributa & the comitia Populi Tributa, which means we are voting twice for that lex. I realized that after voting.>>

I think that should be this way: Since this lex concerns the inner workings of both Comitia, it must be passed by both.

Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
Candidate for Quaestor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Quiz 15 (last)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:33:28 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

QUIZ

Who knows most on Ancient Rome?

**********
Send your answers to consulromanus@yahoo.com (don’t
forget to include you Nova Roma name), putting “QUIZ”
in the subject line.
**********

NOTE: I decided to post the new questions already,
since the answers were by accident posted on the main
list (and most of our regular participants already
answered them)

Very simple: five questions each day, some multiple
choice and some not; some difficult ones and some easy
ones…

Questions covering all aspects of Roma Antiqua:
military, history, literature, …


The results will be posted each day on the main list,
so participate as much as you can!

Answers to the previous questions cannot be sent
anymore!

-----

The correct answers of quiz 14:
1. Who had the second wall across Britain
built?(Antoninus Pius)

2. Who had, before becoming emperor, destroyed the
Great Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem? (Titus)

3. Who is said to have been the father of Romulus and
Remus? (Mars)

4. Who killed the emperor Claudius I ? (his wife)


5. Who put down the slave revolt of Spartacus in 71
BC?
(Marcus Licinius Crassus)

-----
Points so far:
82 Julilla Sempronia Magna – 82
76 Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus – 76
67 Titus Labienus Fortunatus – 67
63 Sextus Apollonius Scipio – 63
59 Quintus Lanius Paulinus – 59
51 ST GA Tiberius Galerius Paulinus – 51
51 Hadrianus Rutilius Bardulus – 51
39 Gnaeus Equitius Marinus – 39
32 Spurius Postumius Tubertus – 32
22 Marcus Arminius Maior – 22
19 Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis – 19
19 Marcus Octavius Germanicus – 19
19 Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia – 19
18 Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix – 18
13 Gnaeus Octavius Noricus – 13
10 Gaius Basilicatus Agricola – 10
09 Lithia Cassia – 9
08 Gallus Solaris Alexander – 8
04 Aulus Octavius Serenus – 4
04 Alexandria Iulia Agrippa – 4


-----


Here are the last questions:

***************

1. Who sacked Rome in 390 BC?
- The Goths
- The Gauls
- The Etruscans
- The Greeks

2. Who should have said "Vae Victrix" (Woe to the
conquered)?
- Julius Caesar (when he invaded Britain)
- Claudius (when he invaded Britain)
- Alaric the Visigoth (when he sacked Rome)
- Brennus the Gaul (when he sacked Rome)

3. Who screamed "Varus! Give me back my eagles!"
- Anthony
- Claudius
- Tiberius
- Augustus

4. Who was NOT a member of the first Triumverate?
- Marcus Antonius
- Caesar
- Pompeius
- Crassus

5. Who was the second Roman king?
- Servius Tullius
- Numa Pompilius
- Ancus Marcius
- Romulus


***************

Take part in the quiz, and see who knows most on
Ancient Rome!!


Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Emperors and Capitol Punishment
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:41:25 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

I just have a question regarding capitol punishment in the Imperial
age of Rome.

Could an Emperor who took a dislike to a Roman person (not including
his slaves) simply order him killed in a snap of a finger for
amusement at a feast or whatever or would the person have to have
been accused, tried and justly or unjustly convicted first? I checked
various references and I'm not clear on that matter. Are stories we
hear about Caligula and Nero doing this greatly exagerated? Any ideas?

Thank You,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Plebeii - Epigram contest award!!!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:42:25 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete!

It is with great pleasure that I announce the results
of the Epigram Contest. First of all many thanks to
all who participated in this contest! You've all done
a great job!

Also many thanks to the jury of this contest:
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus
Manius Constantinus Serapio
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo


AND HERE ARE THE RESULTS:

WINNER: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus - 80%

2. Numerius Cassius Niger - 79%
3. Lithia Cassia - 73%
4. Tiberius Annaeus Otho - 71%
5. Renata Corva - 70%
6. Spurius Postumius Tubertus - 52%


Many congratulations to all participants, and
especially to our winner, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus!

As promised, our winner will receive the book "A
Garden Of Roman Verse".


HERE IS THE WINNING EPIGRAM:
"Of arms and man I sing," once Virgil boldly wrote
then told Aeneas' tale, still learned by mouldy rote.
His labors long indeed, the students sadly note,
The teachers know, for they were once in the same
boat.


This, and all other epigrams, will soon be available
on our Ludi Plebeii website!


Valete bene

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
----------
Aedilis Plebis
Quintilianus for Consul! http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
Octavius for Censor! http://romanrepublic.org/octavius/censor
Serapio for Quaestor! http://www.geocities.com/mcserapio/Serapio_for_Quaestor.html
Scipio for Quaestor! http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Quaestorship

__________________________________________________
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Emperors and Capitol Punishment
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:49:46 -0600

Ave

I believe no Emperor ever took a Roman citizen's life without at least some pre-text of justification and due process of law. As marginalized as the Senate may have seemed during the Imperial Era, no Emperor died a natural death if the Senate was against him: A tradition began with Julius Caesar and repeated often in Roman history. Those that flouted Senate authority and killed indiscriminately died long before their time. The popular conception that Emperors ruled with absolute unchallenged authority don't realize the symbiotic and dynamic relationship between Senate and Emperor. Emperors that had no clear realization of this paid with their lives, eventually.

Vale

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola







The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:41 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Emperors and Capitol Punishment


Salvete Omnes,

I just have a question regarding capitol punishment in the Imperial
age of Rome.

Could an Emperor who took a dislike to a Roman person (not including
his slaves) simply order him killed in a snap of a finger for
amusement at a feast or whatever or would the person have to have
been accused, tried and justly or unjustly convicted first? I checked
various references and I'm not clear on that matter. Are stories we
hear about Caligula and Nero doing this greatly exagerated? Any ideas?

Thank You,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:57:02 -0600

I don't believe I attacked their personalities, rather how they turned, or failed to turn, their philosophies into real life applications. I never said "Marcus Aurelius was a hypocrite", rather I pointed out actions of his that might leave a reasonable person to conclude that he was a hypocrite.

And I'm sure many illustrious forefathers would disagree with my statement. Bi-partisianship was a ridiculous and foriegn idea to Romans, I'm sure.







The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Meuleman
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list


Salve Gai Basilicate,

Most of the philosophers (although I agree that Plinius doesn't qualify one, and I have my doubts about Horatius) you mention, you attack on their personality, and not on what they thought...
Don't get me wrong. Philosophy is fun, no doubt about it. It is semi-useful. I believe most non-organic mental illness to be attributed to a wrong "life philosophy". My statement was meant to be more a joke than anything. But many of our ancient forefathers would have wholeheartedly agreed with my original statement, and no error.


Perhaps. Many of them might have disagreed as well... ;)

Vale bene!
Solaris


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] voting question
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:58:03 -0600

yeah, why aren't there two consuls? And I thought the censor appointed senators, why do we vote on them?







The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:52 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] voting question




Salvete:

I thought there are multiple candidates for multiple offices. How come
I could vote for only one candidate, as only one Tribunus and only one
Consul?

Galerius Peregrinator



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] 3ed Try for meeting
From:	CSSWarspite@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:37:54 EST

ATTENTION
Any one who resides between Albany New York and New York City please
contact me off list. I am trying to get meeting/talking going on in this
area, and have no idea who is out there.

Marcus Ambrosia Incendium


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] voting question
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:52:04 +0000

Salvete:

I thought there are multiple candidates for multiple offices. How come
I could vote for only one candidate, as only one Tribunus and only one
Consul?

Galerius Peregrinator



_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] voting question
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:01:52 -0300 (ART)

Salvete

--- Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
<gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com> escreveu: >
>
> Salvete:
>
> I thought there are multiple candidates for
> multiple offices. How come
> I could vote for only one candidate, as only one
> Tribunus and only one
> Consul?

MAIOR: Our current law systems states that every
citizen has the right to vote only once for each
position. However, the Tribus or Centuria vote, as a
whole, for all positions available.
For example, each tribe will give one vote for each of
the five most voted candidates for Tribune.

> Galerius Peregrinator

Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] For Gens Reform,
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:48:45 EST

In a message dated 11/17/2002 3:11:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spqr753@msn.com writes:

> Are all these heads of families widows and widowers with no children?

Every Gens out there had to start with one. There has to be a starting
point....

G. Modius Athanasius
(Currently in a Gens of one)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Attention Voters! Invalid voter codes
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:49:21 -0000

The following voter tracking numbers indicate that an invalid or
malformed voter code was used:

#21045, #23030, #24045

Please check the procedures I recommended earlier for obtaining your
voter code:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339

... or contact the censors.


Gratias!

---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Emperors and Capitol Punishment
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:59:33 -0000

Salve Gai,

Very interesting. Thank you for your reply.

Quintus


--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> Ave
>
> I believe no Emperor ever took a Roman citizen's life without at
least some pre-text of justification and due process of law. As
marginalized as the Senate may have seemed during the Imperial Era,
no Emperor died a natural death if the Senate was against him: A
tradition began with Julius Caesar and repeated often in Roman
history. Those that flouted Senate authority and killed
indiscriminately died long before their time. The popular conception
that Emperors ruled with absolute unchallenged authority don't
realize the symbiotic and dynamic relationship between Senate and
Emperor. Emperors that had no clear realization of this paid with
their lives, eventually.
>
> Vale
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
> 417 East 13th Street
> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> (816).471.2111
> (816).510.0072(cell)
> (816).471.8412(Fax)
> The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney
privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of
the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to
deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in
error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact
information in the "reply to" field above and return the original
message to the sender. Thank you.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus
> To: Nova-Roma@y...
> Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:41 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Emperors and Capitol Punishment
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I just have a question regarding capitol punishment in the
Imperial
> age of Rome.
>
> Could an Emperor who took a dislike to a Roman person (not
including
> his slaves) simply order him killed in a snap of a finger for
> amusement at a feast or whatever or would the person have to have
> been accused, tried and justly or unjustly convicted first? I
checked
> various references and I'm not clear on that matter. Are stories
we
> hear about Caligula and Nero doing this greatly exagerated? Any
ideas?
>
> Thank You,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@y...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] voting question
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:21:03 +0000

Well, I voted the first time: for censor there is only one candidate,
and it is no problem there. Then there is Consul and I could have only one
choice, but they're supposed to be 2 positions and 3 candidates. Then there
were the tribuni..etc, and again I could only check one candidate. So I
went back again, and tried it again, and I voted again for the same people,
Tribunus and Consul..etc. It doesn't seem right. I think I could vote a
third time but haven't tried it. There are positions without enough
candidates, why then am I restricted to one check in?

Galerius Peregrinator.


>From: M Arminius Maior <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] voting question
>Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:01:52 -0300 (ART)
>
>Salvete
>
> --- Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
><gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com> escreveu: >
> >
> > Salvete:
> >
> > I thought there are multiple candidates for
> > multiple offices. How come
> > I could vote for only one candidate, as only one
> > Tribunus and only one
> > Consul?
>
>MAIOR: Our current law systems states that every
>citizen has the right to vote only once for each
>position. However, the Tribus or Centuria vote, as a
>whole, for all positions available.
>For example, each tribe will give one vote for each of
>the five most voted candidates for Tribune.
>
> > Galerius Peregrinator
>
>Vale
>Marcus Arminius Maior
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Yahoo! GeoCities
>Tudo para criar o seu site: ferramentas fáceis de usar, espaço de sobra e
>acessórios.
>http://br.geocities.yahoo.com/


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] attention Lex repeated at comitia plebis & comitia populi
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:39:01 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

--- Gnaeus Octavius Noricus <cn.octavius.noricus@gmx.at> escribió:
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> <<The Lex Salicia de Tribunicia Comitiorum Convocatione is repeated
> both at the Comitia Plebis Tributa & the comitia Populi Tributa,
> which means we are voting twice for that lex. I realized that after
> voting.>>
>
> I think that should be this way: Since this lex concerns the inner
> workings of both Comitia, it must be passed by both.
>
> Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
> Candidate for Quaestor

Thank you for your explanation, Cn. Octavi Norice.

As Cn. Octavius has pointed out, this proposal affects *both* Comitia.
That is why I have decided to present it to both.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:47:13 -0500

Salve,



I must disagree with your assessment. To the ancients, and especially
the Romans, philosophy had a very practical side, apart from the attempt
to unravel the mysteries of the universe and the divine. Philosophy
provided a guide to proper though and action, a roadmap to living your
life. It was more than just some esoteric, academic mumbo-jumbo to be
debated endlessly at the Baths and Stoas, it was a way of life to those
that practiced it. It provided answers to moral and ethical questions,
that ancient Religion did not. Stoicism provided Emperor Marcus Aurelius
with the moral guidance he needed to govern the Empire with fairness and
wisdom.



Vale,



C. Minucius Hadrianus







-----Original Message-----
From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola [mailto:jlasalle@kc.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:47 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list



There is logic, and there is reality and Ultimate Truth, both of which
defy logic in many instances. All philosophies are futile because they
only lead to inaction.






The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged
and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual
or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error, please immediately
notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to"
field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:14 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Philosophy list


Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> All sensible Romans should stay away from philosophy

Why is this? Logic is a philosophy. Without Logic there would be no
science, law, or even basic common sense.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus




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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] voting question
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:54:51 -0300 (ART)

Salvete

--- Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
<gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com> escreveu: > Well, I
voted the first time: for censor there
> is only one candidate,
> and it is no problem there. Then there is Consul
> and I could have only one
> choice, but they're supposed to be 2 positions and 3
> candidates. Then there
> were the tribuni..etc, and again I could only check
> one candidate. So I
> went back again, and tried it again, and I voted
> again for the same people,
> Tribunus and Consul..etc. It doesn't seem right. I
> think I could vote a
> third time but haven't tried it. There are
> positions without enough
> candidates, why then am I restricted to one check
> in?

M.ARMINIUS: Well, our leges says that every citizen
can vote only once for every position. So, you can
only vote for one Censor, one Consul, one Tribune, one
Quaestor... but this can change with both Leges
Salicia de Sufragii approved. Then, you cold vote for
four Questores, two Tribunes and two Rogatores.


> Galerius Peregrinator.
> >From: M Arminius Maior <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
> >Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] voting question
> >Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:01:52 -0300 (ART)
> >
> >Salvete
> >
> > --- Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
> ><gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com> escreveu: >
> > >
> > > Salvete:
> > >
> > > I thought there are multiple candidates for
> > > multiple offices. How come
> > > I could vote for only one candidate, as only one
> > > Tribunus and only one
> > > Consul?
> >
> >MAIOR: Our current law systems states that every
> >citizen has the right to vote only once for each
> >position. However, the Tribus or Centuria vote, as
> a
> >whole, for all positions available.
> >For example, each tribe will give one vote for each
> of
> >the five most voted candidates for Tribune.
> >
> > > Galerius Peregrinator

Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior


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