Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Cult of Antinous
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:40:52 -0000

Salve,

The Cult of Antinous has little to do with his or Hadrian's sexual
orientation. What exactly occured in October of 130 CE is not known,
and I doubt that we will ever really know. Augusta writes
simply, "he [Hadrian] lost his Antinous along the Nile." and Hadrian
himself "He fell into the Nile." Whether Antinous death occured by
accident, murder, or suicide is unimportant to where he died.

Antinous drowned in the Nile regardless of how he wound up in the
waters. It is known that the two previous floodings of the Nile had
been less than satisfactory to replenish the fertility of the land.
There was an ancient Egyptian tradition to send a sacrifice to drown
in the river to influence the river gods to send a better flood. It
was also Egyptian custom that those who drowned in the Nile became
minor dieties in the afterlife.

Antinous was often depicted as an aspect of the god Osiris (who also
drowned in the Nile. This depiction tends to support that Antinous
was first diefied amongst the Egyptians. By Egpytian standards the
deification of Antinous would have been prefectly normal. That
Hadrian latched on to this belief for comfort in his grief is
understandable. However the temple recently uncovered is anything
but "a temple of gay love." It is a temple to a diety, one of many
in the ancient world. That Hadrian had a personal connection to this
diety is undeniable, but it is not a temple erected to celebrate
human sexuality. The concepts of human sexuality that we have today
ie "gay/straight polarity" were completely foreign concepts to the
Romans.

Where the remains of Antinous are is unknown at this time. That
Antinous died in Egpyt and he was considered a minor diety it is most
probable that he was embalmed as this was considered necessary by the
Egyptians to survive the afterlife. His tomb may rest somewhere in
Egypt. It is also possible that Hadrian brought Antinous' body back
to Rome with him and perhaps his body will be found near the site of
the temple that was recently uncovered. There is a burial obelisk for
Antinous but it has been moved numerous times throughout history.
Since there is an obelisk it is most probable that Antinous' body was
not left in Egypt. On the obelisk that Hadrian had constructed
states that after his death, Antinous was, "raised again to life" to
become a god, much like another diety then rising in popularity,
Jesus the Christ.

His cult, while centered in Antinioopolis in Egypt was fairly
widespread throughout the Empire. In the Hellenistic world Antinous
was really a "local boy who made good." Relics of Antinous have been
found as far away as the Danube, Holland, Portugal, Gaul, Malta,
Lebanon, and the shores of the Black Sea. This implies that he must
have had a least a few followers even in these far reaches of the
Empire.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:03:50 -0000

Q. Cassius Calvus provided a masterful explanation of
the cult of Antinous.

I'll add that for many centuries there was a constellation named
Antinous. It appears on Bayer's map of the heavens drawn in the
18th century. It was discarded in the 19th century when the
International Astronomical Union divided the sky into 88 standard
constellations. The modern constellation Delphinus (the dolphin)
contains the stars that were once attributed to Antinous.

A look at the old sky charts will show that Antinous was depicted
wearing flowing, diaphnous robes very similar to those shown on
Virgo and Andromeda. The celestial cartographers pretty clearly
thought that he wasn't just folding Hadrian's socks.

-- Marinus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Another Question for the Candidates
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:12:34 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., Jamie Johnston <jamiekjohnston@y...> wrote:
> Moreover, under the
> current wording of the constitution the under-age
> citizen has no rights at all (and with all due respect
> to Marcius Rex, whose judicial acumen is far superior
> to mine, I still cannot see that there are any two
> ways about it given the actual wording of the
> constitution) - this is a very serious problem.
>

Salve Jamie,

I am of course flattered by such praise, but I guess I did not make
myself clear enough. The constitution as you read it in the
Tabularium is INCOMPLETE. The left out passage which is the relevant
one (because the display in the Tabularium has no legal significance
as such) indeed means that impuberes DO have (some) rights under the
constitution.

Please read again:
"a. The paterfamilias may, at his discretion, exercise the rights
ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this Constitution on behalf of
impuberes in their gens, with the exception of the right to vote
(paragraph II.B.3.) and the right to join the Ordo Equester
(paragraph II.B.8.)."

Under the Constitution Impuberes carry the ability to hold most of
the rights under the constitution but not the ability to exercise
them until they reach the age of 18. Before this age they need their
pater/materfamilias who may exercise the rights on their behalf. This
form of curatorship is not unusual even in macronations. I see no
problem whatsoever with this.

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex
Candidate for Tribune


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Temple to Gay Love
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:41:56 -0600

I doubt Hadrian would have built a temple to the guy unless there was something more than just being his "favourite", whatever that means. Romans will argue about anything.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Javier Mardones
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:55 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Temple to Gay Love

Salve Quirites,

Very agree about that point. The cult of Antinoo was
focused in himself as the tragic hero died young. The cult was spread
around the roman world (and the Hadrian's help) syncretazing with
other cults, for example, the young Dyonisios and Osiris...

In other hand, Catholic christianity still worship the
figure of Saint sebastian (the young martir murdered in Diocletian's
times) In Some part of latin america this saint is portraited like
young boy (instead like an adult in Europe) an his cult is very
alive...

Marcus Cornelius Chilensis

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> A Very misleading headline.
>
> The short lived cult of Antonius was directed at the
> Emperor's favorite, the person, and not at the bond
> between them.
>
> --- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@k...>
> wrote:
> > http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_710095.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
> > 417 East 13th Street
> > Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> > (816).471.2111
> > (816).510.0072(cell)
> > (816).471.8412(Fax)
> > The information contained in this e-mail message is
> > attorney privileged and confidential information
> > intended only for the use of the individual or
> > entity named. If the reader of this message is not
> > the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
> > responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
> > you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> > distribution or copying of this communication is
> > strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> > communication in error, please immediately notify
> > the sender by using the contact information in the
> > "reply to" field above and return the original
> > message to the sender. Thank you.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> "Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
> (A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
> Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] re: The first Provinciae Italiae meeting
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:00:02 -0500

Marcus Iulius, thank you so very much for sharing this event with us!
It sounds like a wonderful day, and I wish I weren't so many hundreds
of miles away!

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Temple to Gay Love
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:51:06 -0800 (PST)

--- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
wrote:
> I doubt Hadrian would have built a temple to the guy
> unless there was something more than just being his
> "favourite", whatever that means. Romans will argue
> about anything.
>
If the Headline had said "Temple to a Gay Lover" it
would have been accurate. "Temple to Gay Love" makes
it sound like the temple was dedicated to the concept
of Gay Love, which it was not. The Temple was
dedicated to the person, not to a celebration of the
nature of the relationship.

If you are looking for a shrine associated with Gay
Love, look in Athens. I Recall reading that the
reputed tomb of Herakles lover Iolaus was visited by
Gay Lovers who wished to formalize a relationship with
the hero as a witness. I can't recall the source for
this however.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
Seneca, Letters to Lucilius

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] New Moravii
From:	"Ian Elliott" <ianelliott@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:46:10 -0800

Thanks, Sister Arnamentia! I look forward to exploring the many facets of the Republic, and will do so as soon as I have reduced my E-mail stack from other groups!

Your brother Moravian,
Quintus
----- Original Message -----
From: Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:52 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] New Moravii

Welcome Demetreus and Quintus! Very glad to have you
here!

your sister,
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:48:52 +0100
> From: "Diana Moravia Aventina"
> <diana@gensmoravia.org>
> Subject: New Moravii !!
>
> Salvete!
>
> An official welcome to two new citizens of Gens
> Moravia: Demetreus Moravius
> Barbaricus, known to all who attended the NR Rally
> and to Quintus Moravius
> Cunctator, a good friend of mine from my
> macronational duties as a Pagan
> Federation officer.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?trial_for_myself?=
From:	"=?utf-8?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:48:27 +0100

Sorry everybody, just a little post to try if everything's working!

Gallus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Latin Literature
From:	"caius_iulius_verona" <caius_iulius_verona@yahoo.it>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:34:58 -0000

Hello Everybody.

If you're intersted in Latin literature, check this out:

http://www.intratext.com/LAT/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:23:38 -0600

hahaha. did Hadrian wear socks?

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous

Q. Cassius Calvus provided a masterful explanation of
the cult of Antinous.

I'll add that for many centuries there was a constellation named
Antinous. It appears on Bayer's map of the heavens drawn in the
18th century. It was discarded in the 19th century when the
International Astronomical Union divided the sky into 88 standard
constellations. The modern constellation Delphinus (the dolphin)
contains the stars that were once attributed to Antinous.

A look at the old sky charts will show that Antinous was depicted
wearing flowing, diaphnous robes very similar to those shown on
Virgo and Andromeda. The celestial cartographers pretty clearly
thought that he wasn't just folding Hadrian's socks.

-- Marinus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Temple to Gay Love
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:22:33 -0600

Well, I didn't write the headline, just passed it along. And its arguable
that it was a temple to their "gay love".

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and
confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or
entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received
this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using
the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the
original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Temple to Gay Love

>
> --- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
> wrote:
> > I doubt Hadrian would have built a temple to the guy
> > unless there was something more than just being his
> > "favourite", whatever that means. Romans will argue
> > about anything.
> >
> If the Headline had said "Temple to a Gay Lover" it
> would have been accurate. "Temple to Gay Love" makes
> it sound like the temple was dedicated to the concept
> of Gay Love, which it was not. The Temple was
> dedicated to the person, not to a celebration of the
> nature of the relationship.
>
> If you are looking for a shrine associated with Gay
> Love, look in Athens. I Recall reading that the
> reputed tomb of Herakles lover Iolaus was visited by
> Gay Lovers who wished to formalize a relationship with
> the hero as a witness. I can't recall the source for
> this however.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> "Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
> (A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.)
> Seneca, Letters to Lucilius
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Taverna!
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:09:42 -0800 (PST)

Marinus--A Roman bar like Callahan's? Ooh! Sign me
up, and I'd like a good, chilled pint of Bass, please.

And Piotr may drive me home and stay over, any time he
wants. (g)

---
Renata Corva

=====
Chantal
http://www.4dw.net/aerden/theran/theranweyr.html

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:06:43 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> hahaha. did Hadrian wear socks?
>
>Salve Gai,

Possibly he did. Underclothes - "Evidence for underclothes is
limited, but a loin cloth was worn in Rome and Italy and women
sometimes wore a breast band and bikini type underclothes,
occasionally of soft leather. There is some evidence for socks and
stockings."

Now given Hadrian's preferences, he may well have liked women's
attire including socks or stockings.

Reference: Handbook To Life In Ancient Rome - Adkins & Adkins

Vale,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>
>
> The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
> 417 East 13th Street
> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> (816).471.2111
> (816).510.0072(cell)
> (816).471.8412(Fax)
> The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney
privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of
the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to
deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in
error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact
information in the "reply to" field above and return the original
message to the sender. Thank you.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> To: Nova-Roma@y...
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:03 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
>
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus provided a masterful explanation of
> the cult of Antinous.
>
> I'll add that for many centuries there was a constellation named
> Antinous. It appears on Bayer's map of the heavens drawn in the
> 18th century. It was discarded in the 19th century when the
> International Astronomical Union divided the sky into 88 standard
> constellations. The modern constellation Delphinus (the dolphin)
> contains the stars that were once attributed to Antinous.
>
> A look at the old sky charts will show that Antinous was depicted
> wearing flowing, diaphnous robes very similar to those shown on
> Virgo and Andromeda. The celestial cartographers pretty clearly
> thought that he wasn't just folding Hadrian's socks.
>
> -- Marinus
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@y...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Taverna?
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:22:26 -0500

>From Flavi Galeri Aureliani to Marini. Salve.

As soon as the Pompeiian wine is released next year, I'll buy an amphora for the house. Save a seat near the balneum for me.

Vale.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Male-Male Love / Cult of Hercules
From:	Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:04:12 -0800

Salvete omnes:

I've just recently begun digging into various sources concerning ancient
sexual practices versus gender-role beliefs (which, then as now, didn't
always match up). Re Drusus' comment below:

>If you are looking for a shrine associated with Gay Love, look in Athens. I
Recall reading that the
reputed tomb of Herakles lover Iolaus was visited by Gay Lovers who wished
to formalize a relationship with the hero as a witness. I can't recall the
source for this however.<

I too ran across an offhand comment made by someone (without sources
attached so I didn't bother to record who said it) that the Cult of
Herakles/Hercules was "renowned" for male-male love in the ancient world. I
have googled myself into a lather but cannot find any, decent or indecent,
information on this cult, or even a good bibliography. If anyone has any
information about the beliefs, rituals, etc. of this rather wide-spread
cult, I'd appreciate the references. Thanks a bunch.

Salvete,

Cn Iulius Strabo


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Taverna!
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:27:55 -0000

Renata Corva writes:

> Marinus--A Roman bar like Callahan's? Ooh! Sign me
> up, and I'd like a good, chilled pint of Bass, please.

And indeed, you have it now.

> And Piotr may drive me home and stay over, any time he
> wants. (g)

I haven't seen any customers quite like Callahan's Piotr
yet, but if one shows up I'll pass the word. (And it is
*so* nice to know you share my affection for those stories.)

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Taverna?
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:30:22 -0000

Flavius Galerius writes:

> As soon as the Pompeiian wine is released next year, I'll buy an
> amphora for the house. Save a seat near the balneum for me.

You've got it! Come on over. The Place is open now.

NR_Taverna@yahoogroups.com

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	"arlarosa" <arlarosa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:54:17 -0000

Salve,

if all is about a NEW temple, let�s arquelog. works and after we can
mantain or modify our criteria about this particuar subject.

Hadrianus was a very interesting person and take things for real in
advance is not fair with him. We really can�t imagine his final
intention to build this temple

By other hand, moderns gay people doesn�t need a Roman Temple, Greek
history and 20Th century is enough

Vale,

Q. Octavius Hispanicus

---
In Nova-Roma@y..., "quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@a...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> The Cult of Antinous has little to do with his or Hadrian's sexual
> orientation. What exactly occured in October of 130 CE is not
known,
> and I doubt that we will ever really know. Augusta writes
> simply, "he [Hadrian] lost his Antinous along the Nile." and
Hadrian
> himself "He fell into the Nile." Whether Antinous death occured by
> accident, murder, or suicide is unimportant to where he died.
>
> Antinous drowned in the Nile regardless of how he wound up in the
> waters. It is known that the two previous floodings of the Nile
had
> been less than satisfactory to replenish the fertility of the
land.
> There was an ancient Egyptian tradition to send a sacrifice to
drown
> in the river to influence the river gods to send a better flood.
It
> was also Egyptian custom that those who drowned in the Nile became
> minor dieties in the afterlife.
>
> Antinous was often depicted as an aspect of the god Osiris (who
also
> drowned in the Nile. This depiction tends to support that Antinous
> was first diefied amongst the Egyptians. By Egpytian standards the
> deification of Antinous would have been prefectly normal. That
> Hadrian latched on to this belief for comfort in his grief is
> understandable. However the temple recently uncovered is anything
> but "a temple of gay love." It is a temple to a diety, one of many
> in the ancient world. That Hadrian had a personal connection to
this
> diety is undeniable, but it is not a temple erected to celebrate
> human sexuality. The concepts of human sexuality that we have
today
> ie "gay/straight polarity" were completely foreign concepts to the
> Romans.
>
> Where the remains of Antinous are is unknown at this time. That
> Antinous died in Egpyt and he was considered a minor diety it is
most
> probable that he was embalmed as this was considered necessary by
the
> Egyptians to survive the afterlife. His tomb may rest somewhere in
> Egypt. It is also possible that Hadrian brought Antinous' body
back
> to Rome with him and perhaps his body will be found near the site
of
> the temple that was recently uncovered. There is a burial obelisk
for
> Antinous but it has been moved numerous times throughout history.
> Since there is an obelisk it is most probable that Antinous' body
was
> not left in Egypt. On the obelisk that Hadrian had constructed
> states that after his death, Antinous was, "raised again to life"
to
> become a god, much like another diety then rising in popularity,
> Jesus the Christ.
>
>
> His cult, while centered in Antinioopolis in Egypt was fairly
> widespread throughout the Empire. In the Hellenistic world Antinous
> was really a "local boy who made good." Relics of Antinous have
been
> found as far away as the Danube, Holland, Portugal, Gaul, Malta,
> Lebanon, and the shores of the Black Sea. This implies that he
must
> have had a least a few followers even in these far reaches of the
> Empire.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Taverna II
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:08:43 -0500 (EST)

In the early days of Nova Roma, there was a "Taverna" where all gathered
to talk over the days thoughts and business. I had even compiled a
detailed descriprtion of the inside and outside of the Taverna, and
provided it to the webmistress. This was in the days before the present
"back alley" with it's filthy talk and political manuevering.

It was a pleasant place, just off a "back alley" somewhere in Rome. I
was often pleased to find a seat there on the "shady side" with a goblet
of Falernian and some friends.

The "Taverna" of those days is no longer alive , having been usurped by
something much less pleasing and more of a open sewer than a place to
meet one's friends. As the Honorable Junior Consul has been so eager to
remind all, I once again returned to "back alley" seeking the place that
I had remembered and finding unfortunately something very different.

Your idea, therefore has merit, and I should again like to rest these
weary bones on padded bench on the "shady side". and again savor the
flavor of Falerian served in "redware" cup. However, I suspect that
without a significant amount of effort such an undertaking might well
turn into another "back alley" which would be unfortunate indeed, in my
humble view.

As I have said however, the idea certainly has merit, and I would be
pleased to at least try once again to find some relaxation with good
friends without being surrounded by gutter language and political
wrangling.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:57:31 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@y..., "arlarosa" <arlarosa@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> if all is about a NEW temple, let�s arquelog. works and after we
can
> mantain or modify our criteria about this particuar subject.
>
> Hadrianus was a very interesting person and take things for real in
> advance is not fair with him. We really can�t imagine his final
> intention to build this temple
>
> By other hand, moderns gay people doesn�t need a Roman Temple,
Greek
> history and 20Th century is enough
>
> Vale,
>
>
> Q. Octavius Hispanicus

Salve,

I posted that archeologists have uncovered the remains of a temple
dedicated to Antinous on the grounds of what was then Hadrian's Villa
with a link to yahoo's uk news. (MSG 5270 Temple to Antinous
found.) Two days later Gaius Basilicatus Agricola reported the same
thing (MSG 5338 Temple to Gay Love) with a link and a slightly more
provocative headline. I did some research at this point to show that
while Hadrain and Antinous were most probably lovers, the temple and
Cult of Antinous had nothing to do with sexuality and calling
it "Temple to Gay Love" was misleading. Personally I found the
article that Gaius Basilicatus Agricola leaning towards interpeting
history to make it fit a modern political agenda rather than
interpeting the finds in the context of Hadrian's time.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:52:42 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
>
>Now given Hadrian's preferences, he may well have liked women's
>attire including socks or stockings.
>
Hadrian's preference appears to have been Greek. And that is gay-as-despise-women, not gay-as-like-women. I doubt anyone outside the modern era thought along such strange lines at all, except in the Platonic context of women as inferiors. They were all of course also military men.
It is a very strange thing when one thinks about it: those who most prefer the habits of the other sex are assumed to be homosexual exclusively while those always with their own and disparaging the other are considered paradigms of heterosexuality. Perhaps this has more to do with social conditioning dependent upon a distinct anti-sensual history than on natural tendencies? One would not for instance consider the epitome of a gorgeously attired traditional Padishah or Samurai effeminate - not for long anyway!
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:15:10 -0000

Q. Octavius Hispanicus writes:

> By other hand, moderns gay people doesn�t need a Roman Temple, Greek
> history and 20Th century is enough

While there's something to be said for this, I think that modern
Roman gay men just might need (for some value of need fairly well
up Maslow's Hierarchy) a Roman temple which promotes ethical and
honest practices while enshrining the good aspects of men who
are attracted to men.

(I'll note that I'm an odd choice to be saying this, as a flaming
heterosexual, but I do support the rights of others to love whomever
they wish.)

-- Marinus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Cult of Antinous
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:33:49 -0000

Salve Vibi,

True,

But there are some cross dressers and drag queens who are indeed
hetero and others that are gay. Some gays are effiminate yet others
are very masculine and tough as nails. A gorgeously dressed Sumari's
clothes were not feminine by oriental standards and quite different
from the kimomos worn by the women. Similarily other than Barbarians,
and Roman calvary or soldiers working in cold areas, tunics and togas
were the norm. I think tunics and the like were worn to the 1500's
afterwhich pants became the norm. Still, I say it is possible that
Hadrian could have worn socks.Emperors like Caligula were reported to
b AC - DC and dress in feminine attire on occasion.

Quintus

> Hadrian's preference appears to have been Greek. And that is gay-as-
despise-women, not gay-as-like-women. I doubt anyone outside the
modern era thought along such strange lines at all, except in the
Platonic context of women as inferiors. They were all of course also
military men.
> It is a very strange thing when one thinks about it: those who
most prefer the habits of the other sex are assumed to be homosexual
exclusively while those always with their own and disparaging the
other are considered paradigms of heterosexuality. Perhaps this has
more to do with social conditioning dependent upon a distinct anti-
sensual history than on natural tendencies? One would not for
instance consider the epitome of a gorgeously attired traditional
Padishah or Samurai effeminate - not for long anyway!
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
> --
> Personalised email by http://another.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Chariot Races on Cable TV
From:	Charlie Collins <cotta@spamcop.net>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:27:29 -0600

The Learning Channel(TLC) on cable is going to have Chariot
Races on December 1st at 8pm(CT). I just saw the ad on TV.
They showed a Pit Crew(like NASCAR) working on a Chariot.
It looks like it should be very interesting.

Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
Propraetor
America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
Nova Roma

iChat/AIM: WyrdCharlie
YahooMsgr: iguard2


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Taverna II
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:22:51 -0000

Marcus Minucius Audens writes:

> As I have said however, the idea certainly has merit, and I would be
> pleased to at least try once again to find some relaxation with good
> friends without being surrounded by gutter language and political
> wrangling.

Come on over!

As for the potential of such a place to deteriorate through a
too-loose policy of moderation, I'll remind you that I'm also
a retired US Marine. People who want to get out of line will
quickly discover that my place is a place where I'm the proprietor,
and behaving badly will get one slapped into moderated status
quickly. I have no problem with flinging repeat offenders out
into the street either.

-- Marinus