| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizens and Senators |
| From: |
MarcusAudens@webtv.net |
| Date: |
Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:28:11 -0500 (EST) |
|
Master L. Didius Geminus Sceptius;
In response to Senator Maximus, I was his Co-Consul during the period
that he has mentioned. That year was a bad one for him, but he did not
miss a vote or his duies as Consul. In addition, I must mention that
this was the year in which I had part of my left foot amputated, and I
was laid up for nearly three weeks. During that time he was generous
enough to deal with my responsibilities for me until I could again gain
access to the internet.
I respect Senator Maximus for his strength during that period, and I
fully agree with him that the Senate Seat is not merely a place to sit
and vote. It is, as well, for some an inspiring position which drives
you to do a better job, look deeper into problems laid before you, and
move beyond your individual self to serve others first. Others, feel
nothing, and ignore the honor and the duty of thier position, while
still others seek the position as a summit from which to try and control
the actions of others. Being raised to the Senate affects different
people in different ways, and like other areas of increased
responsibility has a tendency to magnify your ethics, your attributes,
your strengths and your weaknesses, and your skills either for good or
ill. It certainly has for me, and many of my shortcomings have been
very kindly and firmly identified for me by my fellow citizens!!!!!!!
Your messages to Senator Maximus do attract a good deal of attention,
simply because he is a well-known member of the Senate, he has his own
views, which he is not loathe to share, and he has the ability and will
to think and speak for himself. Therefore, what he has to say is of
interest to many people.
All of this is not to say that you will not be capable of doing the same
thing or even better perhaps. The Senator is merely explaining to you
what you will face as a Tribune, in service to others, but held as well
to a firm line of the law which allocates your task and the areas of
your response. Every person faces the same requirements, but almost
no-one reacts to them in the same way.
I have some small insight into your work so far in Nova Roma, and some
idea of those who support you for this position. For my part I think
that you will do well. I am Patrician and so I cannot cast my vote for
this election, but I can recommend you to those who know me, and I do
so, sure that my faith in your ability will be justified in your taking
on this high office.
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Nova! |
| From: |
"T.lunivs Romanvs <titan_242002@yahoo.com>" <titan_242002@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:04:11 -0000 |
|
Thanks T.Labienvs
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, labienus@n... wrote:
> Salve Tite Iuni
>
> > ps how would feb.20,1967 and 2002 be written in Latin?
>
> A.d.X Kal Mar MMDCCXX AUC, which is short for ante diem decimum
Kalendas
> Martias MMDCCLV ab urbe condita. That translates to "the tenth day
before the
> Kalends of March, 2720 years after the founding of the city". 2002
is, indeed,
> MMDCCLV, or 2755. More traditionally, it's the year of the
consulship of M
> Octavius and L Cornelius.
>
> For a reasonably complete treatment of Roman dates, I suggest:
> http://www.geocities.com/~stilicho/day.html
> and:
> http://www.geocities.com/~stilicho/year.html
>
> Actually, I recommend the whole site as an excellent resource for
any beginning
> student of Roman history or Latin.
>
> > (both literally
> > and according to the Nova Roma dating of the years.)is it 2755
and
> > how do you come up with that?
>
> As implied above, the Nova Roman year 1 is 753 BCE, which is the
year we
> recognize for the founding of Rome. The actual date is, of course,
not known
> with any certainty, but 753 BCE is the traditionally accepted date
and one's
> calendar must start somewhere.
>
> Vale
> T Labienus Fortunatus
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Election for Tribune |
| From: |
"rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com>" <RexMarcius@aol.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 01:07:39 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia
<scriba_forum@h...>" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> ---Ave Gai Popilli Quaestor Nova Roma:
>
> I hope the plebian populace does not forget that you were one of
the
> two Quaestors who were first reponsible for the collection and
proper
> dispersement of taxes to the central treasury.
>
> If this doesn't speak for your honesty, skill and credibility, what
> does?
>
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia
>
Salve Pompeia!
Indeed noble work and Iuno Monetas will look favourably upon the
increased activity in her basement. However, I would prefer it to see
for myself than just hear it from you. Unfortunately it seems that
the publication of Quaestor reports in the Aerarium Saturni has
become somewhat out of fashion. Considering that we have so many
funds now I would prefer a little bit more transparency in this
respect (I am quite sure that everything is in order btw).
So for our new Quaestores I believe it would be well appreciated if
they took up again this old custom of publishing financial documents
on the Novaroma website.
Ave et Vale
Marcus Marcius Rex
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Election for Tribune |
| From: |
"rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com>" <RexMarcius@aol.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:41:21 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "metamorphosis2003
<metamorphosis2003@y...>" <metamorphosis2003@y...> wrote:
> ---Salvete Rex et Omnes:
>
> With due respect, you'd best be suggesting that 'everything is in
> order' in the absence of any evidence to the contrary :) It would
be
> better for your popularity.
SNIP
> >
> > Salve Pompeia!
> >
> > Indeed noble work and Iuno Monetas will look favourably upon the
> > increased activity in her basement. However, I would prefer it to
> see
> > for myself than just hear it from you. Unfortunately it seems
that
> > the publication of Quaestor reports in the Aerarium Saturni has
> > become somewhat out of fashion. Considering that we have so many
> > funds now I would prefer a little bit more transparency in this
> > respect (I am quite sure that everything is in order btw).
Salve Pompeia!
Thank you for your worries about my popularity :-) Does this amount
to an endorsement even? I could use some support for my Tribunician
campaign! But before you worry too much I suggest you read my post
again, particularly the last sentence above....As you can see I did
suggest that everything is in order. However, in a Post-Enron World I
believe as a taxpayer it is not too much too ask for transparency
from our financial officers.
Regarding the financial reports: I believe it is not up to the
Tribunes but up to the Quaestores (like G. Popillius Laenas) in
collaboration with the Curator Araneum to see to it that these
reports are published (I guess they are still delivered regularly to
the Senate as they should be).
Ave et Vale
Marcus Marcius Rex
Candidate for Tribune
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Election for Tribune |
| From: |
"metamorphosis2003 <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca>" <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 01:39:28 -0000 |
|
---Salvete Rex et Omnes:
With due respect, you'd best be suggesting that 'everything is in
order' in the absence of any evidence to the contrary :) It would be
better for your popularity.
I 'would imagine' if he were a reckless incompetant with Nova Roma's
funds the issue would have produced some semblence of evidence by now.
Regarding the financial reports per se, good idea. Perhaps this is
something you could work on with your fellow Tribunes next year.
Alas, I cannot attest to his 'perfection' but I do believe Gaius
Poplitius Laneus will do a hypersatisfactory work as Tribune, based
on my knowledge of him, and my working with him this year.
Didn't mean to get you all wound up, Marci.
Bene valete,
Po
In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@a...>"
<RexMarcius@a...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pompeia_cornelia
> <scriba_forum@h...>" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > ---Ave Gai Popilli Quaestor Nova Roma:
> >
> > I hope the plebian populace does not forget that you were one of
> the
> > two Quaestors who were first reponsible for the collection and
> proper
> > dispersement of taxes to the central treasury.
> >
> > If this doesn't speak for your honesty, skill and credibility,
what
> > does?
> >
> >
> > Bene valete,
> > Pompeia
> >
>
> Salve Pompeia!
>
> Indeed noble work and Iuno Monetas will look favourably upon the
> increased activity in her basement. However, I would prefer it to
see
> for myself than just hear it from you. Unfortunately it seems that
> the publication of Quaestor reports in the Aerarium Saturni has
> become somewhat out of fashion. Considering that we have so many
> funds now I would prefer a little bit more transparency in this
> respect (I am quite sure that everything is in order btw).
>
> So for our new Quaestores I believe it would be well appreciated if
> they took up again this old custom of publishing financial
documents
> on the Novaroma website.
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] My Fond Hopes |
| From: |
"pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:35:24 -0000 |
|
Salvete Omnes:
Yes, alas......allow me to jump on the bandwagon for just a few feet
here.....even to ride on the wheel...
I certainly hope, that by the time this incarnation passes, that I
acrue but a morsel of the virtue, fair play and honesty of Senator
Maximus.
Pompeia
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:04:37 -0800 |
|
By this Edict, I convene the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia
Populi Tributa for the purposes of conducting the runoff elections for Praetor, Quaestor, and the promulgation of 3 laws.
The Contio begins at 18:00 (6 pm) Roman Time, Monday December 10th, 2002.
Voting shall begin at 18:01 (6:01 pm) Roman Time Saturday December 15th, 2002
Voting shall end at 00:01 (12:01 am) Roman Time Friday December 21th.
COMIITIA CENTURIATA
Candidate for Praetor:
Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
Senator Marcus Arminius Maior
Gnaeus Salix Astur
COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA
Quaestor:
Decimus Iunius Silanus
Claudius Salix Davianus
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Law I: Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi
Preamble: The purpose of this amendment will be to revise section III. C of the Senatus Consultum on taxation and add an amendment to the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi, by placing all newly approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
This Lex has two key aims.
1. To modify the current status by placing all newly approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
2. To give new citizens the option to be reclassified as Assidui by paying the current year's tax in full.
I. All persons obtaining citizenship after this lex takes effect will have Capiti Censi status until and unless payment is made.
II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by paying the appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment is made during a contio or election, the change in status will take place after the election concludes.
III. Upon receipt of tax payment in full, the applicant is considered to assume the rights and privileges of Assidui as defined by the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi and the applicant will be allocated to a rural tribe and appropriate century allocation.
Law II: Lex Cornelia de suffragatoribus malis
Preamble: Voter fraud is acknowledged as a real and present danger to the republic of Nova Roma. The obtaining of additional fraudulent votes is currently an uncomplicated procedure.
This lex has three key aims:
1. To reduce significantly the ease and incidence by which additional fraudulent votes may be garnered.
2. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining such votes may be punished.
3. To define proxy votes and to prevent their potential abuse.
I. For the purpose of this lex, voter fraud is defined as: The use, or attempted use, of more than one vote by a single individual in any given election with the intent of defrauding the senate and the people of Nova Roma. Appropriate use of proxy voting is not considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex. However, inappropriate use of proxy voting would be considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex.
II. Defining a Proxy vote. A Proxy vote would be the voluntary release of one's voter code (with or without instructions) to another individual for the express purpose to cast a vote in the immediate election.) If instructions are included in the proxy, the recipient of the proxy must follow those instructions. If the instructions are not specific regarding a candidate or lex, the recipient must abstain in that vote. Failure to follow these instructions would constitute voter fraud under this law.
1.. It is up to the person who gave the proxy to request the Censors to change his/her voter code at the end of the election. However, if the person who received the proxy attempts to use the voter code in any subsequent election, then that person would be guilty of voter fraud.
II. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence of voter fraud results in an incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to one-year banishment from Nova Roma per fraudulent vote. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence of voter fraud results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to a minimum of five year to maximum life banishment from Nova Roma.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a third offence of voter fraud results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Third offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted of voter fraud retains the right of provocatio.
Law III: Lex Cornelia de multis civitatibus
Preamble: The system and process of becoming a citizen in Nova Roma is easy and with that ease there exists the possibility of abuse. The possibility of people creating multiple citizenships is a real and present danger to the Republic of Nova Roma.
This lex has two key aims:
1.. To establish and define what multiple citizenships are.
2.. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining multiple citizenships may be punished.
I. For the purpose of this lex, multiple citizenships will be defined as: The possession of more than one voter code or entry in the Album Civium by any individual.
II. Possession of a proxy voter code does not fulfill the multiple citizenship requirement.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence results in an incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to two-year banishment from Nova Roma. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence will result in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted under this law retains the right of provocatio.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Election for Tribune |
| From: |
"pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:46:32 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@a...>"
<RexMarcius@a...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "metamorphosis2003
> <metamorphosis2003@y...>" <metamorphosis2003@y...> wrote:
> > ---Salvete Rex et Omnes:
> >
> > With due respect, you'd best be suggesting that 'everything is
in
> > order' in the absence of any evidence to the contrary :) It would
> be
> > better for your popularity.
>
> SNIP
> > >
> > > Salve Pompeia!
Salve Fair Tribune Elect:
> > >
> > > Indeed noble work and Iuno Monetas will look favourably upon
the
> > > increased activity in her basement. However, I would prefer it
to
> > see
> > > for myself than just hear it from you. Unfortunately it seems
> that
> > > the publication of Quaestor reports in the Aerarium Saturni has
> > > become somewhat out of fashion. Considering that we have so
many
> > > funds now I would prefer a little bit more transparency in this
> > > respect (I am quite sure that everything is in order btw).
>
>
> Salve Pompeia!
>
> Thank you for your worries about my popularity :-)
Pompeia: I am just sitting here at the computer worried to death!
Grin....actually 'your' popularity never came into
question....frankly I never gave you a thought....but the Quaestors,
to my knowledge do not issue edictum regarding to whom the reports
are filed, atleast in Nova Roma; they file them as per established
edictum.
And no, it is not too much to ask where your money goes, O
candidate...but since the Quaestors have no control over this, the
Senate and Consuls of next year might be a good place to start.
By the way, I think you are very bright and will do a good job too!
But.....you have to get over having a 'male menopause' everytime one
renders a compliment on someone else.....AND.....
you have to come to terms with the fact that not all citizens of a
given nomen are your mortal enemies.......some even like
you :)..because, in keeping with your oath of office, such persons
are 'the Roman people' as well as the rest.....
AND on a personal note, aside from all of the above:
(Let's just get this nonsense overwith, and quite possibly, you and I
might just get along a little better ok?...consider it a group
therapy session of sorts)
I have never, in case this is a bee in your bonnet, so to speak, ever
had any emnity with the former Amici Dignatis. For one thing, I
wasn't politically involved......I was scriba to M. Minucius Audens
Consul.....and that's it.
Livia and I cried together when she left; I openly supported your
daughter where and when I could, and this is a matter of written
record. I sent her a Bday greeting this year.
Piscinus and I have traded friendly emails.......I do not discuss
Nova Roma politics with noncitizens, but we are on friendly
terms....he and I got along famously when he was in NR, and he gave
me a Bday greeting this year. He is no Agorius, he is like Graecus,
very spiritual.
Formosanus? Well, I tried to mediate between him and Pater....oil
and water, both essentials, unfortunately do not mix well. I do not
agree with all Formosanus has to say, but I don't always agree with
my Pater, either. I see the good in both of them.
I sent Formosanus a token of my affection in celebration of his
wedding. We both realized that NR wasn't happening for him
politically, but we left on friendly terms. I am not trying to convey
O Rex, that I am so wonderfully generous, merely that I do not send
overseas wedding gifts to those I don't give a *(&^ about :)
Vado? I have nothing against Vado....he talks too much, believes too
much of what he hears and he owes us money.....other than that, I
rest my case.
Fimbria? I thought the legislation effecting her wasn't terribly
necessary (one in 450 cases according to the DSM IV) but I wasn't in
office at the time, and I didn't know 'all' the dynamics behind that
one. I supported her as a friend and a Roman regardless, listening
to her feelings, etc.
Mind you I was not too pleased to hear that the URL she furnished to
Livia as a Private Chatroom was the URL to the chatroom on her public
message board, and advertised publicly. So Livia was lurked on, and
the information was fed to the Senate. Pretty sloppy of Fimbria,
being Legatus to Livia....what was she thinking? I know this because
I fed the URL to Livia via aim......Livi was stunned when I broke the
news to her. Now everyone, absolutely everyone, wants to blame this
particular bobump on Sulla, but he didn't do it. Fimbria got sloppy,
by fate or by design.
AND DON'T TELL ME THAT YOU ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT THESE THINGS (Big
toothy grin)........I wager you do! You jump on me everytime I come
on line......if I gave a recipe for Brownies you would find a problem
with that too. So, I thought I would give you the 'whole' story,
from Genesis to Revelation, Alpha to Omega, Homer to Ovidius..take
your pick.
Does this amount
> to an endorsement even? I could use some support for my Tribunician
> campaign! But before you worry too much I suggest you read my post
> again, particularly the last sentence above....As you can see I did
> suggest that everything is in order.
Pompeia: Oh, I know you suggested everything was in order :) And I
was suggesting to you that this is good! I am pleased that you
are 'not' suggesting otherwise. You are, let's face it, 'zeroing in'
on the qualifications of another candidate which I have said nice
things about, so we want to make sure everything is on the 'up and
up', right? Oh, once a Praetrix, 'always' a Praetrix.....alas...
However, in a Post-Enron World I
> believe as a taxpayer it is not too much too ask for transparency
> from our financial officers.
>
> Regarding the financial reports: I believe it is not up to the
> Tribunes but up to the Quaestores (like G. Popillius Laenas) in
> collaboration with the Curator Araneum to see to it that these
> reports are published (I guess they are still delivered regularly
to
> the Senate as they should be).
Pompeia: Well, before I had no choice but to take an exit from my
magisterial villae, yes, I do recall, oh, 'some' mention of a budget,
yea.......BUT, it is not up to the Quaestors, as far as my knowledge
extends, to enact legislation governing where and to whom reports are
delivered.....that would be up to the Senate, Consuls, and maybe even
YOU. But do correct me if I am wrong, and I am sure you will.
ALSO.....does all this mean that Gaius will make a lousy tribune? I
think not. Careful my dear, you might come across as being a little
nitpicky.
Now how is all the above for an endorsement, Marcus Marcius.......I
said YOU....that's good, no?
Cripes.........evening primose at bedtime helps a little.....
Well, Marce.......it's been a 'real'.....slice......:)
Pompeia
(Who doesn't think Rex is all that bad......just needs to learn that
not all people hate him and his chums as much as he thinks they
do....they are just too darned busy.......I wouldn't 'not' vote for
him......but he needs a strong cup of coffee and maybe a boom boom
pillow in the head once in a while, or a squirt gun IMHO)
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
> Candidate for Tribune
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Thanks |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:19:57 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
I would like to thank the following individuals for assisting me with the writing of the laws that are now presented before the Comitia.:
Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
Senator Lucius Sicinius Drusus
Decimus Iunius Silanus
I would also like to thank Consul M. Octavius Germancius and Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus for their assistance in proofing for grammar, continuity, and assisting in coming up with the Latin Titles for the laws.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul of Nova Roma
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Election for Tribune |
| From: |
"rexmarciusnr <RexMarcius@aol.com>" <RexMarcius@aol.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:59:12 -0000 |
|
Salve Pompeia!
>
> Salve Fair Tribune Elect:
MMR: Oh it is far too early for that. I did not even do that well in
the first round. But a nice thought nonetheless (Hint: Vote for
Marcus Marcius Rex as Tribune :-))
> Pompeia: I am just sitting here at the computer worried to death!
> Grin....actually 'your' popularity never came into
> question....frankly I never gave you a thought....but the
Quaestors,
> to my knowledge do not issue edictum regarding to whom the reports
> are filed, atleast in Nova Roma; they file them as per established
> edictum.
>
> And no, it is not too much to ask where your money goes, O
> candidate...but since the Quaestors have no control over this, the
> Senate and Consuls of next year might be a good place to start.
>
MMR: Well, just to tell you how I came up with my request: I read all
the just praise about G. Popilias Laenas (not just from you) and
simply wanted to see how good he (and Nova Roma) was doing. I went to
the Aerarium Saturni and what did I find? Not even a single report
displayed this year.
>
> But.....you have to get over having a 'male menopause' everytime
one
> renders a compliment on someone else.....AND.....
MMR: Well that is a bit over the top, would you not agree? ;-)
>
> you have to come to terms with the fact that not all citizens of a
> given nomen are your mortal enemies.......some even like
> you :)..because, in keeping with your oath of office, such persons
> are 'the Roman people' as well as the rest.....
>
MMR: Ahem, you once criticized me, when you were still Praetor that I
suppose too much in other people's postings (even though I phrased it
then with a lot of "ifs" and "guesses"). May I humbly return this
advice to you now?
> AND on a personal note, aside from all of the above:
>
> (Let's just get this nonsense overwith, and quite possibly, you and
I
> might just get along a little better ok?...consider it a group
> therapy session of sorts)
>
Well I have no problem with you! When I thought about returning to
Nova Roma I considered your election to the office of Praetor as a
real plus! So I can just repeat my (your) advice above!
SNIP (contained all sort of old, outdated gossip)
>
> AND DON'T TELL ME THAT YOU ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT THESE THINGS (Big
> toothy grin)........I wager you do! You jump on me everytime I
come
> on line......if I gave a recipe for Brownies you would find a
problem
> with that too. So, I thought I would give you the 'whole' story,
> from Genesis to Revelation, Alpha to Omega, Homer to Ovidius..take
> your pick.
>
MMR: Even though you may have trouble believing it, I was NOT
thinking about it! But I (as all other readers) have a fairly good
picture now of what goes on in YOUR mind. Let the past be the past
and please stop overreacting so much.
>
> Pompeia: Oh, I know you suggested everything was in order :) And
I
> was suggesting to you that this is good!
MMR: Please, then consider phrasing it so that I have a chance to
recognise it
Po scripsit: "With due respect, you'd best be suggesting
that 'everything is in order' in the absence of any evidence to the
contrary :) It would be better for your popularity."
MMR: Why not say: "It was good that you did not suggest etc. etc." if
you really meant that.
> I am pleased that you
> are 'not' suggesting otherwise. You are, let's face it, 'zeroing
in'
> on the qualifications of another candidate which I have said nice
> things about, so we want to make sure everything is on the 'up and
> up', right? Oh, once a Praetrix, 'always' a Praetrix.....alas...
>
MMR: If you consider pointing out that an old and useful custom like
the publication of Quaestor reports has indeed fallen into disuse is
a form of negative campaigning and should not be mentioned by another
candidate...well I guess then you should criticize L. Sicinius Drusus
even harder for making wrong allegations about another Tribunician
Candidate's actions to the public. I do not remember you speaking up
then so fervently.
>
> Pompeia: Well, before I had no choice but to take an exit from my
> magisterial villae, yes, I do recall, oh, 'some' mention of a
budget,
> yea.......BUT, it is not up to the Quaestors, as far as my
knowledge
> extends, to enact legislation governing where and to whom reports
are
> delivered.....that would be up to the Senate, Consuls, and maybe
even
> YOU. But do correct me if I am wrong, and I am sure you will.
MMR: I believe the Aerarium Saturni inscription
http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html says it best:
"In ancient Rome, the Aerarium Saturni (so called because it was
situated within the temple of Saturn beneath the Capitol) was the
repository for all the official financial documents of the State. It
also served as the official treasury. In Nova Roma, this function is
revived, with all official documents and treasury reports of the
quaestors available herein for the perusal of all at any time."
MMR: This was done, I believe, as an extralegal custom but is what I
consider good governance nonetheless. Please ask Patricia Cassia, who
was most diligent in this respect, how it was done!
Finally IF I am elected Tribune I do not plan to engage in
legislative activities. I personally believe the Consuls have the
policysetting priority in Nova Roma and only when the cart is stuck
in the mud (like when e.g. one Consul continually obstructs the other
against the perceived wishes of the wider political spectrum) the
Tribunes are really entitled to intervene to put a question to the
vote of the People and Senate of Nova Roma. Regarding the Budget only
the Senate can act.
>
> ALSO.....does all this mean that Gaius will make a lousy tribune?
I
> think not. Careful my dear, you might come across as being a
little
> nitpicky.
>
Again, IF Iam elected and IF G. Popillius is elected I hope we can
form excellent collegial relationships. What did you expect? It is a
collegium and no Tribune is an island! :-)
> Now how is all the above for an endorsement, Marcus Marcius.......I
> said YOU....that's good, no?
>
> Cripes.........evening primose at bedtime helps a little.....
>
> Well, Marce.......it's been a 'real'.....slice......:)
>
> Pompeia
>
> (Who doesn't think Rex is all that bad......just needs to learn
that
> not all people hate him and his chums as much as he thinks they
> do....they are just too darned busy.......I wouldn't 'not' vote for
> him......but he needs a strong cup of coffee and maybe a boom boom
> pillow in the head once in a while, or a squirt gun IMHO)
>
> >
Where I live now (Philippines) coffee is terrible, bombs are a
regular occurrence and people wear real guns all the time. So your
suggestions would be a welcome change indeed!
:-)
Ave et Vale
Marcus Marcius Rex
Candidate for Tribune
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Regarding inactive Augurs |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:07:57 -0800 (PST) |
|
I do have some questions regarding the Inactive
Augurs.
First of all, the Constitution (VI b 2) states
"The collegium augurum (college of augurs) shall be
the second-highest ranked of the priestly collegiae.
It shall consist of nine augurs, five from the
plebeian order and four from the patrician order. They
shall be appointed by the collegium pontificum, and
shall hold their offices for life, with no
exceptions."
Currently all the Augurs (including the inactive ones)
belong to Patrician Gens. Does this mean that all the
Patrician spots are filled and only Plebs can apply to
be named an Augur?
Also there are 5 Patrician Augurs listed. The
Constitution limits the number of Patrician Augurs to
4. Is this an oversight or the result of a Plebian
Gens with an Augur as a member being elevated?
If the Elevation of a Plebian Gens to Patrician status
causes the number of Patrician Augurs to exceed the
limit of 4 Patrician Augurs, then is that elevation
Constionual?
--- cassius622@aol.com wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> The facts regarding the 'inactive Augurs' listed on
> the Nova Roma website are
> simple enough.
>
> Unlike the position of Senator, which is political,
> being an Augur is a
> *skill* which is learned over time. In ancient Rome
> once a person became an
> Augur they held the position for life. One did not
> cease to be an Augur even
> if stripped of Citizenship and banished from Rome!
> Once the skill was learned
> it could not be unlearned. It made no difference
> whether or not one was
> practicing the skill publicly on behalf of Rome.
>
> If a person becomes an Augur, they are an Augur 'for
> life.' If they resign
> their Citizenship they may not be Augurs on behalf
> of Nova Roma, but they
> remain Augurs that were trained IN Nova Roma.
>
> As Pontiff Cincinnatus has said, this situation has
> come up before in the
> Collegium Pontificum. The definition of 'for life'
> in regard to uncontactable
> people will probably end up being timed out as it is
> for 'missing persons' in
> various macronations. Someone who has disappeared
> for five or seven years
> could easily be declared 'legally dead' and removed
> from the books. Such a
> formal definition has not been voted in yet simply
> because no former Augur
> has reached that point.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Pontifex Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
Roman Citizen
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Regarding inactive Augurs |
| From: |
cassius622@aol.com |
| Date: |
Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:08:20 EST |
|
Salvete,
The facts regarding the 'inactive Augurs' listed on the Nova Roma website are
simple enough.
Unlike the position of Senator, which is political, being an Augur is a
*skill* which is learned over time. In ancient Rome once a person became an
Augur they held the position for life. One did not cease to be an Augur even
if stripped of Citizenship and banished from Rome! Once the skill was learned
it could not be unlearned. It made no difference whether or not one was
practicing the skill publicly on behalf of Rome.
If a person becomes an Augur, they are an Augur 'for life.' If they resign
their Citizenship they may not be Augurs on behalf of Nova Roma, but they
remain Augurs that were trained IN Nova Roma.
As Pontiff Cincinnatus has said, this situation has come up before in the
Collegium Pontificum. The definition of 'for life' in regard to uncontactable
people will probably end up being timed out as it is for 'missing persons' in
various macronations. Someone who has disappeared for five or seven years
could easily be declared 'legally dead' and removed from the books. Such a
formal definition has not been voted in yet simply because no former Augur
has reached that point.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa |
| From: |
"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:25:40 -0500 |
|
Salve,
Are the voter codes we were issued in November still valid?
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:11 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa
By this Edict, I convene the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia
Populi Tributa for the purposes of conducting the runoff elections for Praetor, Quaestor, and the promulgation of 3 laws.
The Contio begins at 18:00 (6 pm) Roman Time, Monday December 10th, 2002.
Voting shall begin at 18:01 (6:01 pm) Roman Time Saturday December 15th, 2002
Voting shall end at 00:01 (12:01 am) Roman Time Friday December 21th.
COMIITIA CENTURIATA
Candidate for Praetor:
Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
Senator Marcus Arminius Maior
Gnaeus Salix Astur
COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA
Quaestor:
Decimus Iunius Silanus
Claudius Salix Davianus
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Law I: Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi
Preamble: The purpose of this amendment will be to revise section III. C of the Senatus Consultum on taxation and add an amendment to the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi, by placing all newly approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
This Lex has two key aims.
1. To modify the current status by placing all newly approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
2. To give new citizens the option to be reclassified as Assidui by paying the current year's tax in full.
I. All persons obtaining citizenship after this lex takes effect will have Capiti Censi status until and unless payment is made.
II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by paying the appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment is made during a contio or election, the change in status will take place after the election concludes.
III. Upon receipt of tax payment in full, the applicant is considered to assume the rights and privileges of Assidui as defined by the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi and the applicant will be allocated to a rural tribe and appropriate century allocation.
Law II: Lex Cornelia de suffragatoribus malis
Preamble: Voter fraud is acknowledged as a real and present danger to the republic of Nova Roma. The obtaining of additional fraudulent votes is currently an uncomplicated procedure.
This lex has three key aims:
1. To reduce significantly the ease and incidence by which additional fraudulent votes may be garnered.
2. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining such votes may be punished.
3. To define proxy votes and to prevent their potential abuse.
I. For the purpose of this lex, voter fraud is defined as: The use, or attempted use, of more than one vote by a single individual in any given election with the intent of defrauding the senate and the people of Nova Roma. Appropriate use of proxy voting is not considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex. However, inappropriate use of proxy voting would be considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex.
II. Defining a Proxy vote. A Proxy vote would be the voluntary release of one's voter code (with or without instructions) to another individual for the express purpose to cast a vote in the immediate election.) If instructions are included in the proxy, the recipient of the proxy must follow those instructions. If the instructions are not specific regarding a candidate or lex, the recipient must abstain in that vote. Failure to follow these instructions would constitute voter fraud under this law.
1.. It is up to the person who gave the proxy to request the Censors to change his/her voter code at the end of the election. However, if the person who received the proxy attempts to use the voter code in any subsequent election, then that person would be guilty of voter fraud.
II. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence of voter fraud results in an incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to one-year banishment from Nova Roma per fraudulent vote. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence of voter fraud results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to a minimum of five year to maximum life banishment from Nova Roma.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a third offence of voter fraud results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Third offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted of voter fraud retains the right of provocatio.
Law III: Lex Cornelia de multis civitatibus
Preamble: The system and process of becoming a citizen in Nova Roma is easy and with that ease there exists the possibility of abuse. The possibility of people creating multiple citizenships is a real and present danger to the Republic of Nova Roma.
This lex has two key aims:
1.. To establish and define what multiple citizenships are.
2.. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining multiple citizenships may be punished.
I. For the purpose of this lex, multiple citizenships will be defined as: The possession of more than one voter code or entry in the Album Civium by any individual.
II. Possession of a proxy voter code does not fulfill the multiple citizenship requirement.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence results in an incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to two-year banishment from Nova Roma. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence will result in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted under this law retains the right of provocatio.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizens and Senators |
| From: |
"L. Didius Geminus Sceptius \(E-mail\)" <sceptia@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:13:21 +0100 |
|
Salve Honorable Audens
Master L. Didius Geminus Sceptius;
In response to Senator Maximus, I was his Co-Consul during the period
that he has mentioned. That year was a bad one for him, but he did not
miss a vote or his duies as Consul. In addition, I must mention that
this was the year in which I had part of my left foot amputated, and I
was laid up for nearly three weeks. During that time he was generous
enough to deal with my responsibilities for me until I could again gain
access to the internet.
SCE: Sorrow is a part of human being, as we can see every day. I'm sorry now
because I didn't know that of your foot. There are always problems we have
to deal with.
I respect Senator Maximus for his strength during that period, and I
fully agree with him that the Senate Seat is not merely a place to sit
and vote. It is, as well, for some an inspiring position which drives
you to do a better job, look deeper into problems laid before you, and
move beyond your individual self to serve others first. Others, feel
nothing, and ignore the honor and the duty of thier position, while
still others seek the position as a summit from which to try and control
the actions of others. Being raised to the Senate affects different
people in different ways, and like other areas of increased
responsibility has a tendency to magnify your ethics, your attributes,
your strengths and your weaknesses, and your skills either for good or
ill. It certainly has for me, and many of my shortcomings have been
very kindly and firmly identified for me by my fellow citizens!!!!!!!
SCE: A certain man said once that "The measure of a Hero is proved in a
difficult circumstance". Being seated in a Senatorial seat is indeed a
privilege as far as a load too. I slightly disagree because is the
individual who acts, not the seat. But we feel almost the same about his
duties and work to do. However, having an ethic to deal with everyday live
is not merely for Senators, but for every who wants to be roman and stay in
this society created, Nova Roma.
Your messages to Senator Maximus do attract a good deal of attention,
simply because he is a well-known member of the Senate, he has his own
views, which he is not loathe to share, and he has the ability and will
to think and speak for himself. Therefore, what he has to say is of
interest to many people.
SCE: I do know now, I guess. But mainly (Maybe) because he is well-known and
his ideas are sometimes different from mines, I dialogue with him. But I
disagree that of "baiting" him... :-)
All of this is not to say that you will not be capable of doing the same
thing or even better perhaps. The Senator is merely explaining to you
what you will face as a Tribune, in service to others, but held as well
to a firm line of the law which allocates your task and the areas of
your response. Every person faces the same requirements, but almost
no-one reacts to them in the same way.
SCE: That's true!. The situation makes the actions of an individual
sometimes (Why you said you were not able to speak philosophy in the
NRPhilosophy list, Honorable Audens? Do not be afraid... :-D)
So it approaches my view of the individual, not the charge, acting. I think
so... :-)
I have some small insight into your work so far in Nova Roma, and some
idea of those who support you for this position. For my part I think
that you will do well. I am Patrician and so I cannot cast my vote for
this election, but I can recommend you to those who know me, and I do
so, sure that my faith in your ability will be justified in your taking
on this high office.
SCE: I feel quite impressed. Your kind words are something I wouldn't
expect, but now I say humbly that I thank you for them. We will see what it
can happens. :-)
Vale bene,
L. Didius Geminus Sceptius
___________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] NRLandPRoject -- We Need Your Input |
| From: |
Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:54:57 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete Omnes,
the NRLandProject continues!! And we need your help...
Please come to:
http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Land_Project/public/submission.html
and answer some questions.
We need our citizens' views in order to build up the structure of such a project.
Come along and participate!! (and it takes a few minutes only)
Thank you.
Valete,
=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France
Scriba Explorator Primus et Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae
French Translator
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
AW: Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa |
| From: |
<3s@hsk-net.de> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 05:40:51 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve, Tiberi Galeri.
Yes, they remain valid until re-issued.
Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Censor
-- Original Nachricht--
Von: Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com>
An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Senden: 06:25
Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa
Salve,
Are the voter codes we were issued in November still valid?
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:11 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi
Tributa
By this Edict, I convene the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia
Populi Tributa for the purposes of conducting the runoff elections for Praetor,
Quaestor, and the promulgation of 3 laws.
The Contio begins at 18:00 (6 pm) Roman Time, Monday December 10th, 2002.
Voting shall begin at 18:01 (6:01 pm) Roman Time Saturday December 15th,
2002
Voting shall end at 00:01 (12:01 am) Roman Time Friday December 21th.
COMIITIA CENTURIATA
Candidate for Praetor:
Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
Senator Marcus Arminius Maior
Gnaeus Salix Astur
COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA
Quaestor:
Decimus Iunius Silanus
Claudius Salix Davianus
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Law I: Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi
Preamble: The purpose of this amendment will be to revise section III. C of the
Senatus Consultum on taxation and add an amendment to the Lex Vedia de Assidui
et Capiti Censi, by placing all newly approved citizens in the classification of
Capiti Censi.
This Lex has two key aims.
1. To modify the current status by placing all newly approved citizens in
the classification of Capiti Censi.
2. To give new citizens the option to be reclassified as Assidui by paying
the current year's tax in full.
I. All persons obtaining citizenship after this lex takes effect will
have Capiti Censi status until and unless payment is made.
II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by paying the
appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment is made during
a contio or election, the change in status will take place after the election
concludes.
III. Upon receipt of tax payment in full, the applicant is considered to
assume the rights and privileges of Assidui as defined by the Lex Vedia de
Assidui et Capiti Censi and the applicant will be allocated to a rural tribe and
appropriate century allocation.
Law II: Lex Cornelia de suffragatoribus malis
Preamble: Voter fraud is acknowledged as a real and present danger to the
republic of Nova Roma. The obtaining of additional fraudulent votes is currently
an uncomplicated procedure.
This lex has three key aims:
1. To reduce significantly the ease and incidence by which additional fraudulent
votes may be garnered.
2. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining such votes may be
punished.
3. To define proxy votes and to prevent their potential abuse.
I. For the purpose of this lex, voter fraud is defined as: The use, or attempted
use, of more than one vote by a single individual in any given election with the
intent of defrauding the senate and the people of Nova Roma. Appropriate use of
proxy voting is not considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex.
However, inappropriate use of proxy voting would be considered voter fraud for
the purposes of this lex.
II. Defining a Proxy vote. A Proxy vote would be the voluntary release of one's
voter code (with or without instructions) to another individual for the express
purpose to cast a vote in the immediate election.) If instructions are included
in the proxy, the recipient of the proxy must follow those instructions. If the
instructions are not specific regarding a candidate or lex, the recipient must
abstain in that vote. Failure to follow these instructions would constitute
voter fraud under this law.
1.. It is up to the person who gave the proxy to request the Censors to change
his/her voter code at the end of the election. However, if the person who
received the proxy attempts to use the voter code in any subsequent election,
then that person would be guilty of voter fraud.
II. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence of voter fraud results in an
incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma.
For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to one-year
banishment from Nova Roma per fraudulent vote. However, the Praetors will retain
privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area
of jurisdiction.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence of voter fraud results in a
further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of
Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to a minimum of five year to
maximum life banishment from Nova Roma.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a third offence of voter fraud results in a
further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of
Nova Roma. Third offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova
Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted of
voter fraud retains the right of provocatio.
Law III: Lex Cornelia de multis civitatibus
Preamble: The system and process of becoming a citizen in Nova Roma is easy and
with that ease there exists the possibility of abuse. The possibility of people
creating multiple citizenships is a real and present danger to the Republic of
Nova Roma.
This lex has two key aims:
1.. To establish and define what multiple citizenships are.
2.. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining multiple
citizenships may be punished.
I. For the purpose of this lex, multiple citizenships will be defined as:
The possession of more than one voter code or entry in the Album Civium by any
individual.
II. Possession of a proxy voter code does not fulfill the multiple citizenship
requirement.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence results in an incurred
penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. For a
first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to two-year banishment
from Nova Roma. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of discretion to
determine the best course of punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence will result in a further
incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma.
Second offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted
under this law retains the right of provocatio.
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Regarding inactive Augurs |
| From: |
AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 05:57:50 EST |
|
In a message dated 12/10/2002 12:08:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:
> Currently all the Augurs (including the inactive ones)
> belong to Patrician Gens. Does this mean that all the
> Patrician spots are filled and only Plebs can apply to
> be named an Augur?
>
> Also there are 5 Patrician Augurs listed. The
> Constitution limits the number of Patrician Augurs to
> 4. Is this an oversight or the result of a Plebian
> Gens with an Augur as a member being elevated?
This was the primary reason for my concern over the issue. If we had an
unlimited slot for Augurs that would, of course, be one thing and it wouldn't
be nearly as much of an issue as it could be.
When I attended the Lacus Magni event in Ohio back in September I was talking
with our esteemed Senior Consul, Marcus Octavius, about his. I had mentioned
that there were more Patricians than seemed legal. Furthermore, In our
conversion I threw at him the following idea...If a person was an active
Augur for 2 years then they leave Nova Roma, for whatever reason, give them
the same amount of time on in-active status as they had when they were
active. After that time, in the example it would be 2 years, that person
could be presumed "deceased" and the slot could be re-opened.
The position of Augur has the potential of being a highly political
priesthood. Those patrician slots are important, just as those plebeian
slots are equally important. Additionally, since the main list is open to
non-citizens what would prevent a former citizen, who is still an official
augur, to return to the main list and start making declarations of
"unfavorability." Most people, I would imagine, would laugh it off...but it
would cheapen the role of the augur, and the collegium that augurs serve.
Of course, these are simply my ideas. I propose them, and bring it up for
discussion because these subjects are things I have thought about, and
because I care about our Republic. Contrary to the hopes of some, I have no
intentions of leaving Nova Roma if I do not get my way, or if my ideas and
opinions are ignored.
G. Modius Athanasius
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Open Letter to the Praetor (Third Attempt) |
| From: |
"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:00:26 +0000 (GMT) |
|
A. Apollonius Cordus to Pompeia Cornelia Strabo and to
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo wrote:
> I see you have failed to mention that, so I thought
> I would make the populace aware that this was not
> something I ignored
You're absolutely correct. I apologize sincerely for
failing to mention this. The reason for my omission
was that on the 30th of November I wrote to Praetor
Fortunatus to give him notice of the message I
intended to send to the main list, and I included a
cope of the message I was going to send. As it
happened, the Praetor responded directly to the main
list, making the message I'd drafted to send to the
main list redundant. I therefore didn't bother to post
it, and so the section of it which explained all this
never became public. But now that you point out that
I've failed to make things clear, I apologize again
and I post here the relevant section of that message
that I drafted, in the hope that it will belatedly
make some amends. Fortunatus will, I hope, agree that
this is a verbatim copy of what I sent to him. Here it
is:
"A few weeks ago (in message 3514 in the archives, and
see further message 3537) I made a request for a
Praetoral ruling on a point of order on this list. My
request was for two comments made by a citizen to be
ruled out of order, or alternatively for it to be made
clear how those remarks differ from those which were
ruled out of order in a previous ruling (see message
3537 for references).
At this time we had two Praetors. The one who was
dealing with my request, Cornelia Strabo, has recently
contacted me to explain that she took something I said
(in message 3594) to mean that I was happy for the
inquiry to be dealt with privately. What I actually
meant was that I was content to stop discussing the
matter and simply to wait for the ruling to be
announced. My statement wasn't clear however, and
Praetor Strabo's interpretation was entirely
legitimate - it is altogether my fault that I was
unclear. The Praetor, acting on her understanding that
the matter could be addressed privately, requested in
the Senate that any Senator who wished to take issue
with the remarks I was referring to should contact the
Praetors' office. When no one did so, she considered
the issue resolved.
As I've said before, it was altogether my fault that
the misunderstanding arose, and therefore the
non-response of both Praetors to my second 'open
letter' reiterating my request was entirely
reasonable. It was after my third 'open letter' that
Cornelia Strabo contacted me to explain the situation,
which in turn explains Praetor Fortunatus' inaction on
the matter, as he quite reasonably thought that the
issue had been dealt with (and must have been very
puzzled that I kept asking about it)."
Cordus
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Palladius for Praetor |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:55:32 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete Omnes,
The time is almost upon us once again when we must
cast our votes for our preference for those to fulfil
the office of praetor, in my opinion one of the most
important and distinguished of magistracies.
As a consequence, I feel compelled, for the benefit of
our republic, to urge you to cast your vote for none
other than Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus. This most
honorable of Romans has served Nova Roma tirelessly
from its inception and has never wavered in his
dedication and commitment. The ever increasing
importance of this office, in terms of judicial
practice and list moderation, requires a person with a
sense of fairness, justice and integrity. These I
believe are the qualities that best describe this man,
combined with a stature that will ensure an unswerving
commitment to impartiality, essential for any who
would aspire to assume this position.
Valete
Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae
Scriba Censoris
Lictor
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Candidate for AEDILIS PLEBIS needed |
| From: |
"William Rogers <wlr107@yahoo.com>" <wlr107@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:58:16 -0000 |
|
Ave Marcus Arminius Maior,
I thank you for accepting my candidency. I shall await the results of
voting, and await direction from yourself or the Aedile. I stand
ready to serve. I gratefully thank you for this opportunity.
Publius Tarquitius Rufus
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites, et salve Illustrious Publius
> Tarquitius Rufus
>
> --- William Rogers <wlr107@y...> escreveu: >
> > Sir,
> >
> > I am Publius Tarquitius Rufus. I live in Atlanta,
> > GA. I am a recent member of Nova Roma. If it is permitted, I shall
> > GLADLY stand forward to offer myself as a Candidate for the open
post. I am 40 years, so I meet that requirement easily. :-) I have
been a member less than six months, so I shall require a waiver on
that count.
>
> M.ARMINIUS: Thank very much for your offering, Rufe.
> However, according to the Lex Vedia de Curso Honorum,
> a waiver for lenght of citizenship is not allowed, but
> only for age. The same law allows you to candidate,
> but you can only take office after the six-months
> period. That is, you can be elected now, but you can
> only be the Aedilis Plebis in 23/april.
> However, due to a great lack of manpower, i accept you
> candidature, and i suggest that, in the meantime, you
> can work with the elected Plebeian Aedile as his
> scribe.
>
> > I see service as something I owe to Nova Roma, not
> > as a step to something else. I deeply believe that service to
> > what one loves is the best method of demonstrating our love of
that orgainzation/cause/purpose. Hence, I stand forth.
>
> M.ARMINIUS: Again, thank you very much, Rufe! Your
> comprimise to Nova Roma and your willingness to serve
> is an example for us.
>
> > In Humility,
> > Publius Tarquitius Rufus
>
> Vale
> Marcus Arminius Maior
> Tribunus Plebis
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa |
| From: |
"William Rogers <wlr107@yahoo.com>" <wlr107@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:59:58 -0000 |
|
Uhm, where can I get my old number....I forgot and trashed the e-
mail. Sorry.
Publius Tarquitius Rufus
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, <3s@h...> wrote:
>
> Salve, Tiberi Galeri.
>
> Yes, they remain valid until re-issued.
>
> Vale
> Caius Flavius Diocletianus
> Censor
>
> -- Original Nachricht--
> Von: Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@m...>
> An: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Senden: 06:25
> Betreff: Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and
Comitia Populi Tributa
>
> Salve,
>
> Are the voter codes we were issued in November still valid?
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:11 PM
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia
Populi
> Tributa
>
> By this Edict, I convene the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia
> Populi Tributa for the purposes of conducting the runoff elections
for Praetor,
> Quaestor, and the promulgation of 3 laws.
>
>
> The Contio begins at 18:00 (6 pm) Roman Time, Monday December 10th,
2002.
>
> Voting shall begin at 18:01 (6:01 pm) Roman Time Saturday December
15th,
> 2002
>
> Voting shall end at 00:01 (12:01 am) Roman Time Friday December
21th.
>
>
>
>
>
> COMIITIA CENTURIATA
>
>
>
> Candidate for Praetor:
>
>
>
> Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
>
> Senator Marcus Arminius Maior
>
> Gnaeus Salix Astur
>
>
>
>
>
> COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA
>
>
>
> Quaestor:
>
>
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus
>
> Claudius Salix Davianus
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
> Law I: Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi
>
>
>
> Preamble: The purpose of this amendment will be to revise section
III. C of the
> Senatus Consultum on taxation and add an amendment to the Lex Vedia
de Assidui
> et Capiti Censi, by placing all newly approved citizens in the
classification of
> Capiti Censi.
>
>
>
> This Lex has two key aims.
>
>
>
> 1. To modify the current status by placing all newly approved
citizens in
> the classification of Capiti Censi.
>
> 2. To give new citizens the option to be reclassified as
Assidui by paying
> the current year's tax in full.
>
>
>
> I. All persons obtaining citizenship after this lex takes
effect will
> have Capiti Censi status until and unless payment is made.
>
> II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by
paying the
> appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment is
made during
> a contio or election, the change in status will take place after
the election
> concludes.
>
> III. Upon receipt of tax payment in full, the applicant is
considered to
> assume the rights and privileges of Assidui as defined by the Lex
Vedia de
> Assidui et Capiti Censi and the applicant will be allocated to a
rural tribe and
> appropriate century allocation.
>
>
>
> Law II: Lex Cornelia de suffragatoribus malis
>
>
>
> Preamble: Voter fraud is acknowledged as a real and present danger
to the
> republic of Nova Roma. The obtaining of additional fraudulent votes
is currently
> an uncomplicated procedure.
>
>
>
> This lex has three key aims:
>
>
> 1. To reduce significantly the ease and incidence by which
additional fraudulent
> votes may be garnered.
> 2. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining such votes
may be
> punished.
>
> 3. To define proxy votes and to prevent their potential abuse.
>
> I. For the purpose of this lex, voter fraud is defined as: The use,
or attempted
> use, of more than one vote by a single individual in any given
election with the
> intent of defrauding the senate and the people of Nova Roma.
Appropriate use of
> proxy voting is not considered voter fraud for the purposes of this
lex.
> However, inappropriate use of proxy voting would be considered
voter fraud for
> the purposes of this lex.
>
>
>
> II. Defining a Proxy vote. A Proxy vote would be the voluntary
release of one's
> voter code (with or without instructions) to another individual for
the express
> purpose to cast a vote in the immediate election.) If instructions
are included
> in the proxy, the recipient of the proxy must follow those
instructions. If the
> instructions are not specific regarding a candidate or lex, the
recipient must
> abstain in that vote. Failure to follow these instructions would
constitute
> voter fraud under this law.
>
> 1.. It is up to the person who gave the proxy to request the
Censors to change
> his/her voter code at the end of the election. However, if the
person who
> received the proxy attempts to use the voter code in any subsequent
election,
> then that person would be guilty of voter fraud.
>
>
> II. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence of voter fraud
results in an
> incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors
of Nova Roma.
> For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to
one-year
> banishment from Nova Roma per fraudulent vote. However, the
Praetors will retain
> privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment
in this area
> of jurisdiction.
>
>
>
> III. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence of voter fraud
results in a
> further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the
praetors of
> Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to a minimum of five
year to
> maximum life banishment from Nova Roma.
>
>
>
> IV. Discovery and confirmation of a third offence of voter fraud
results in a
> further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the
praetors of
> Nova Roma. Third offence punishment equates to banishment for life
from Nova
> Roma.
>
>
>
> V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person
convicted of
> voter fraud retains the right of provocatio.
>
>
>
>
>
> Law III: Lex Cornelia de multis civitatibus
>
>
>
>
>
> Preamble: The system and process of becoming a citizen in Nova
Roma is easy and
> with that ease there exists the possibility of abuse. The
possibility of people
> creating multiple citizenships is a real and present danger to the
Republic of
> Nova Roma.
>
>
>
> This lex has two key aims:
>
>
>
> 1.. To establish and define what multiple citizenships are.
> 2.. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining multiple
> citizenships may be punished.
>
>
> I. For the purpose of this lex, multiple citizenships will be
defined as:
> The possession of more than one voter code or entry in the Album
Civium by any
> individual.
>
>
>
> II. Possession of a proxy voter code does not fulfill the multiple
citizenship
> requirement.
>
>
>
> III. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence results in an
incurred
> penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova
Roma. For a
> first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to two-year
banishment
> from Nova Roma. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of
discretion to
> determine the best course of punishment in this area of
jurisdiction.
>
>
>
> IV. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence will result in
a further
> incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors
of Nova Roma.
> Second offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova
Roma.
>
>
>
> V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person
convicted
> under this law retains the right of provocatio.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Senate doors (WAS: inactive senators and augurs) |
| From: |
"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:58:37 +0000 (GMT) |
|
A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Galerius Peregrinator and
to all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
C. Galerius Peregrinator wrote:
> And talking about the Senate, deliberations are made
> behind closed doors.
Abstract: I'm going to say that this wasn't the case
historically; that we should think about whether it
should be the case here; that it shouldn't be; how it
could be done otherwise.
On a historical note, I believe I'm right in saying (I
think I read it in Andrew Lintott's 'The Constitution
Of The Roman Republic') that in the ancient republic
the doors of the Curia (Senate-House) actually
remained open throughout meetings, and that members of
the public could thus come and watch through the
doorway. There were even occasions when a meeting was
disrupted by a crowd of people coming in from the
Forum! Of course, the number of people who could
realistically fit in the doorway to watch would have
been limited, but evidently it was considered
desirable, or at least not a problem, for meetings of
the Senate to be open to public scrutiny. (Anyone who
disagrees that any of this paragraph is accurate,
please disagree now.)
Now, some may have noticed that I don't generally make
historical points and then fail to comment. I don't
think we *should* fail to comment if we find that our
practice differs from that of the ancient republic: we
should consider whether it is a good or bad point on
which to differ. (Anyone who disagrees with this idea,
please comment now.)
So, should we depart from ancient practice in this
case? I don't want to state a very strong case,
because I simply don't know how meetings of our Senate
work (In a chatroom? On an e-mail list?) and therefore
how one would go about opening them to public view,
and what the implications would be. But my feeling in
principle is that we really should be able to see what
goes on in the Senate-House.
Firstly, because the ancients could, and what good
reason could there be for us to do differently in this
case?
Secondly, because a great deal of unnecessary
argument, speculation and even rancour can result from
the announcement of a Senate voting-result without any
exposition of the arguments that were heard on both
sides (we saw this with the gens reform bill veto: we
had to have the same argument on the main list as must
have been had already in the Senate, and the main list
version was probably a good deal more chaotic, I'd
like to imagine). Additionally to this point, if a
bill passes through the Senate and is then put to the
Assembly it would surely be extremely helpful for
ordinary voters to see the arguments of astute and
experienced statesmen on the subject.
Thirdly, because it is entirely in keeping with the
spirit of the Roman constitution, with its massive
emphasis on 'checks and balances', that the Senate
should be subject to the scrutiny of the people.
(Anyone who disagrees with any of the three above
arguments, please comment now.)
How could it be done? As I say, I don't know how
debates actually take place, but the easiest solution
would seem to me to be for the Tribunes to publish
(not to the main list, because the message would be
tediously large, but on the website) the minutes of
every meeting after the end of the meeting. This would
be consistent with their function as set out in the
Constitution IV.a.7.b, to whit, 'To be privy to the
debates of the Senate, and keep the citizens informed
as to the subjects and results thereof'. (Anyone who
considers this impractical or illegal please comment
now.)
Thanks for listening.
Cordus
=====
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa |
| From: |
"Gnaeus Octavius Noricus" <cn.octavius.noricus@gmx.at> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:28:37 +0100 |
|
> Uhm, where can I get my old number....I forgot and trashed the e-
> mail. Sorry.
> Publius Tarquitius Rufus
Salve!
That's no problem: Go to your Album Civium page at http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4726 and klick the "Get Voter Code" button + follow the instructions, your code will be mailed to you.
Vale!
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
Quaestor 2756
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi |
| From: |
Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:32:25 +0100 |
|
"William Rogers " wrote:
> Uhm, where can I get my old number....I forgot and trashed the e-
> mail. Sorry.
Salve, Publi Tarquiti Rufe.
Go to your profile on the Nova Roman website, here:
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=4726
There, click on the button labelled "Get Voter Code", and you'll get an
e-mail to your official e-mail address with your code, I believe.
Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Concerning Lex Cornelia de multis civitatibus |
| From: |
"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:38:48 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites, et salve Lucie Cornelie
I have one question concerning the Lex Cornelia de
multis civitatibus. Wouldn't it be better, if in
paragraph I it would say "The possession of more than
one voter code or _Citizen ID_ by any individual."?
As I already pointed out once here, obviously
sometimes the database behind the album civium makes
some mistakes (as it was the case with the now
resigned M. Varius Pullus and his wife: they both had
only one citizen ID but three entries in the album
civium each). Also, the ID is the one number that
identifies each citizen.
Valete bene,
=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------
__________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Just a thought on the inactive Augers |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:53:02 -0000 |
|
Salve,
If they didn't respond to the census (someday the Republic will be
able to afford to undertake one) and were removed from the Citzenship
rolls it would call the legality of their title into question.
I think it was a mistake to include too many of the details of the
Religio's internal structure in the Constitution rather than the
Religio having a seperate legal charter and let the Pontiffs, augers,
flamens handle the internal affairs of the Religio themselves. That
way if they needed to make a structural change they wouldn't have to
go through the political procedures that a constitutional amendment
requires.
Vale,
Q Cassius Calvus
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Quintus Cassius Calvus.
Salvete.
>
> Thank you for the reference. I was unsure if this could be applied
to those appointed "for life" if they became inactive as citizens.
Valete.
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Just a thought on the inactive Augers |
| From: |
PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:37:47 -0500 |
|
>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Quintus Cassius Calvus. Salvete.
Thank you for the reference. I was unsure if this could be applied to those appointed "for life" if they became inactive as citizens. Valete.
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa |
| From: |
"Julilla Sempronia Magna <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:35:20 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Are the voter codes we were issued in November still valid?
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Julilla Sempronia Magna Tiberium Galerium Paulinum omnibusque SPD
The new voter codes issued last month are indeed valid in this
election, and all Plebeians should exercise their duty by voting. If
any have mislaid their new code, obtain it by following the
procedures illustrated earlier today.
---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] The Third Consular Proposal |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:10:02 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites.
> Law III: Lex Cornelia de multis civitatibus
>
>
>
>
>
> Preamble: The system and process of becoming a citizen in Nova Roma
> is easy and with that ease there exists the possibility of abuse.
> The possibility of people creating multiple citizenships is a real
> and present danger to the Republic of Nova Roma.
>
>
>
> This lex has two key aims:
>
>
>
> 1.. To establish and define what multiple citizenships are.
> 2.. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining multiple
> citizenships may be punished.
>
>
> I. For the purpose of this lex, multiple citizenships will be
> defined as: The possession of more than one voter code or entry in
> the Album Civium by any individual.
>
>
>
> II. Possession of a proxy voter code does not fulfill the multiple
> citizenship requirement.
>
>
>
> III. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence results in an
> incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of
> Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended punishment should
> equate to two-year banishment from Nova Roma. However, the Praetors
> will retain privilege of discretion to determine the best course of
> punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
>
>
>
> IV. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence will result in a
> further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the
> praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to
> banishment for life from Nova Roma.
>
>
>
> V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person
> convicted under this law retains the right of provocatio.
Someone who actually haves more than one citizenship can be in one of
two situations:
1.- That person can have made a mistake, by requesting citizenship
*twice* (sometimes prospective citizens waiting for citizenship
approval can get nervous, and it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up
requesting citizenship twice, in the fear that their first request has
been ignored). In this situation, he will probably have used his real
name and data on both applications. The censores should have spotted
this; if they haven't (they are busy), then one of the citizenships
should be cancelled, and the citizen should not receive further
punishment.
2.- If someone requests several citizenships intentionally, then that
individual would be a danger to Nova Roma. He should be expulsed for life.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
___________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Regarding inactive Augurs |
| From: |
"Marcus Cassius Julianus <cassius622@aol.com>" <cassius622@aol.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:29:37 -0000 |
|
Salve,
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Currently all the Augurs (including the inactive ones)
> belong to Patrician Gens. Does this mean that all the
> Patrician spots are filled and only Plebs can apply to
> be named an Augur?
Cassius:
Not at all. The passage mentioned in the Constitution would surely be
for Augurs active within Nova Roma. The Augurs spoken of are people
holding active office, not merely people trained to read omens.
>
> Also there are 5 Patrician Augurs listed. The
> Constitution limits the number of Patrician Augurs to
> 4. Is this an oversight or the result of a Plebian
> Gens with an Augur as a member being elevated?
Cassius:
See above. There is only one 'active' Patrician Augur holding an
office at this moment.
>
> If the Elevation of a Plebian Gens to Patrician status
> causes the number of Patrician Augurs to exceed the
> limit of 4 Patrician Augurs, then is that elevation
> Constionual?
Cassius:
Again, see above. The Constitution speaks of active offices only. At
present Nova Roma has only one Augur - Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus.
The other names are 'listed but inactive', merely as an
acknowledgement.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Contra Legem Corneliam Octaviam de Assiduis et Capitibus Census |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:58:59 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete, Quirites.
Since the contio on the new consular proposals has already begun, I
think it is time for us to discuss on the *very important* issues that
these legislative proposals touch.
Let's begin with the first one:
> Law I: Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi
>
>
>
> Preamble: The purpose of this amendment will be to revise section
> III. C of the Senatus Consultum on taxation and add an amendment to
> the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi, by placing all newly
> approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
>
>
>
> This Lex has two key aims.
>
>
> 1. To modify the current status by placing all newly approved
> citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
>
> 2. To give new citizens the option to be reclassified as Assidui
> by paying the current year's tax in full.
>
>
> I. All persons obtaining citizenship after this lex takes
> effect will have Capiti Censi status until and unless payment is
> made.
>
> II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by paying
> the appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment
> is made during a contio or election, the change in status will take
> place after the election concludes.
>
> III. Upon receipt of tax payment in full, the applicant is
> considered to assume the rights and privileges of Assidui as defined
> by the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi and the applicant will be
> allocated to a rural tribe and appropriate century allocation.
In my opinion, to approve this proposal would be a *big* mistake.
The Lex Vedia de Assiduis et Capitibus Census established the principle
that new citizens should not be asked to pay taxes in their first year.
This was a wise decision, because it allowed new citizens to get some
familiarity with the way in which Nova Roma works before they were
asked to put money for its growth (they could always put money on the
treasury before tax season if that was their decision).
What is the purpose of this proposal? Is it to get more money? Right
now, Nova Roma needs more active citizens far more than it needs money.
Besides, I don't think that we will get much money from it. I think
that new citizens will fall into one of these three categories:
1.- Those who discover that there is a required "entrance fee" and
decide to pay rigth away. These citizens would probably pay as well in
their due time under our current legislation, so there would be no
gain.
2.- Those who discover that there is a required "entrance fee" and
decide not to pay (or who decide to leave NR altogether). These
citizens could have become tax payers in the regular tax season, after
knowing more about Nova Roma. In my opinion, this proposal would make
us loose many tax payers and many active citizens.
3.- Those who don't even discover that there is a required "entrance
fee". These will seldom become really active citizens (not to mention
tax payers), and this lex will not do much to improve their situation.
I think that Nova Roma should strive to have as many citizens as
possible counted among the Asssidui, and not the other way round.
Otherwise, we will be becoming a true oligarchy (I am not calling
names, I am talking about Nova Roma's political system), with the
*many* drawbacks that a government of a few, by a few and for a few has
(believe me, I know a little bit about that kind of government).
I will vote NO on this proposal. I do not see any benefits coming from
it. I do not see any reason to approve it.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
___________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Candidate for Tribune -- Marcus Martius Rex |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:06:00 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites.
--- jmath669642reng@webtv.net escribió:
> Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> I am pleased to come before you in support of a gentleman of the
> first order, who stands before you in the white toga of a Candidate
> for the position of Tribune. This gentleman is Marcus Martius Rex.
I can only concur with senator Audens's words. I have had the privilege
of cooperating with Rex in the Academia Thules, and I have to say that
he has seemed an extremely reasonable person to me. I think that he
would be a very good tribunus plebis, since he will be a guarantee of
justice and equality.
I would like to remind you all that, on the election for tribunus
plebis, you have two votes. My second vote will be for Lucius Didius
Geminus Sceptius. His English is not very good :-), but his heart is.
We live in the same city and I have had the pleasure to meet him
personally on several occasions. I am sure that you will not be
disappointed by his performance in the Tribunate.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
___________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Candidate for Tribune -- Marcus Martius Rex |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@webtv.net |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:11:56 -0500 (EST) |
|
Citizens of Nova Roma;
I am pleased to come before you in support of a gentleman of the first
order, who stands before you in the white toga of a Candidate for the
position of Tribune. This gentleman is Marcus Martius Rex.
I have known this gentleman from his first entrance into NR, and have
been privaleged to maintain a friendship and correspondence with him
from that time, both in and out of Nova Roma.
His obvious abilities and achievements in the larger world as a
financial repesentative to third world countries, and as an acknowledged
Doctor of Law, are well known, and I bring them to your attention again,
simply because they together represent an extensive experience in both
personal determination and in making difficult decisions.
He holds a senior position in the Academia Thule as the gentleman in
charge of the Law department of instruction. His work in the Academia
has been much commented upon in that area of endeavor, and he is held in
high esteem by those who administrate the Academia, as well as those who
are his students.
Now this gentleman stands before you asking for your consideration as a
Nova Roma Tribune.
I do not ask you for your vote, as that duty and privalage is certainly
yours to provide in your own time and wisdom. But I do ask for your
kind consideration of this gentleman's candidacy. My reason for asking
this of you, for this gentleman, is the result of two determinations on
my part;
--The first is that from my knowledge of him as a friend and as a hard
worker for NR, I am positive that he will be a great asset to NR as a
Tribune. His experience and education are both a very great plus, and
his close association with the Academia Thule and our Senior Consul
(Elect) Quintillianus is indicative that he will be able to work closely
with the Consuls and the elected Magistrates, of the coming year, to
deal with the concerns which need the attention of a gentleman with his
kind of background;
--The second is a selfish determination in that were I running this year
for office, I would be honored and most pleased to run for an office in
which I could have the privaledge of working closely with Marcus Martius
Rex. I have not had the privaledge of meeting this gentleman face to
face. This is, of course, unfortunate, but those who do know him and
who work with him have my complete respect and support. I am pleased to
note that such a person of intellect and honor will be seeking approval
from the Citizens of Nova Roma, and I support this gentleman strongly
for the important office of Tribune, here in NR.
In closing, Honored Citizens, I place before you my thoughts regarding
the Tribune Candidate Marcus Martius Rex, and ask for your kind
consideration in putting this gentleman's intelligence, eagerness,
training and experience to work for Nova Roma. He brings to the
Tribunate new ideas, new methodologies, and a new aspect of service,
strengthened by an excellent education and determination in working with
and in legal and political areas. He would be my choice for any
position or task that he felt himself qualified to stand for, and were
it possible for me to do so, it would indeed be an honor for me to serve
with him, as an equal or as his trusted staff associate.
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:57:49 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve Tribune,
> b) Why should we allow "proxies"?
Practically speaking, it's almost impossible to prevent. If someone
gives his voter code to another, there'd be no way to detect where the
vote came from without the Rogatores, Curator, and Censores illegally
sharing information, and even then the results would be inconclusive.
Nothing forbids the practice now; even if we tried to ban it, it would
be no more effective than a ban against voting while drunk.
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Censor-Elect 2756
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:45:03 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, amice.
--- "Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>"
<equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> escribió:
> Gnaeus Salix Astur asked:
>
> > b) Why should we allow "proxies"?
>
> Because sometimes citizens must be away from places where they
> have computer access, but still wish to vote in an election.
> The alternative would be to issue "absentee ballots" which would
> have to be mailed to some location, or to have citizens not vote
> for as long as they're unable to access the net.
>
> Suppose, for example, that I were recalled to active duty and sent
> to somewhere remote. I might still have occassional telephone
> conversations with Paulina Gratidia, and she could tell me about
> some upcoming vote. Then, if proxy voting is allowed, she could
> vote for me provided I had made all the arrangements for her to do
> that. That way my vote would be recorded. Otherwise, my vote would
> be lost for the duration of my time away from net access.
>
> -- Marinus
You are right that the best thing would be to have "absentee ballots".
I would certainly support that. I wonder if it would be actually
possible (certainly, our current technology would allow it). But voting
proxies? That raises many questions:
* How could you actually know that Paulina Gratidia has voted what you
wanted her to vote in your name? Votes are secret.
* Imagine you have not returned yet and there is an additional
votation. Is your proxy still valid? Can Paulina still vote in your
name without you giving specific instructions? Can she vote whatever
she wants in your name without you even knowing it? If the answer is
"no", then an absentee ballot would prove both more simple and secure.
If your answer is "yes", then I'm afraid that our conceptions on the
seriousness and importance of our democratic institutions are quite
divergent (and I think that that is not the case) :-).
In short, absentee ballots yes, proxies NO :-).
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
___________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:20:54 -0800 |
|
Ave,
They should be. I am not aware that the Censors have changed them.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa
Salve,
Are the voter codes we were issued in November still valid?
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:11 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Summoning the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia Populi Tributa
By this Edict, I convene the Comitia Centuriata and Comitia
Populi Tributa for the purposes of conducting the runoff elections for Praetor, Quaestor, and the promulgation of 3 laws.
The Contio begins at 18:00 (6 pm) Roman Time, Monday December 10th, 2002.
Voting shall begin at 18:01 (6:01 pm) Roman Time Saturday December 15th, 2002
Voting shall end at 00:01 (12:01 am) Roman Time Friday December 21th.
COMIITIA CENTURIATA
Candidate for Praetor:
Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
Senator Marcus Arminius Maior
Gnaeus Salix Astur
COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA
Quaestor:
Decimus Iunius Silanus
Claudius Salix Davianus
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Law I: Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi
Preamble: The purpose of this amendment will be to revise section III. C of the Senatus Consultum on taxation and add an amendment to the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi, by placing all newly approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
This Lex has two key aims.
1. To modify the current status by placing all newly approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
2. To give new citizens the option to be reclassified as Assidui by paying the current year's tax in full.
I. All persons obtaining citizenship after this lex takes effect will have Capiti Censi status until and unless payment is made.
II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by paying the appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment is made during a contio or election, the change in status will take place after the election concludes.
III. Upon receipt of tax payment in full, the applicant is considered to assume the rights and privileges of Assidui as defined by the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi and the applicant will be allocated to a rural tribe and appropriate century allocation.
Law II: Lex Cornelia de suffragatoribus malis
Preamble: Voter fraud is acknowledged as a real and present danger to the republic of Nova Roma. The obtaining of additional fraudulent votes is currently an uncomplicated procedure.
This lex has three key aims:
1. To reduce significantly the ease and incidence by which additional fraudulent votes may be garnered.
2. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining such votes may be punished.
3. To define proxy votes and to prevent their potential abuse.
I. For the purpose of this lex, voter fraud is defined as: The use, or attempted use, of more than one vote by a single individual in any given election with the intent of defrauding the senate and the people of Nova Roma. Appropriate use of proxy voting is not considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex. However, inappropriate use of proxy voting would be considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex.
II. Defining a Proxy vote. A Proxy vote would be the voluntary release of one's voter code (with or without instructions) to another individual for the express purpose to cast a vote in the immediate election.) If instructions are included in the proxy, the recipient of the proxy must follow those instructions. If the instructions are not specific regarding a candidate or lex, the recipient must abstain in that vote. Failure to follow these instructions would constitute voter fraud under this law.
1.. It is up to the person who gave the proxy to request the Censors to change his/her voter code at the end of the election. However, if the person who received the proxy attempts to use the voter code in any subsequent election, then that person would be guilty of voter fraud.
II. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence of voter fraud results in an incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to one-year banishment from Nova Roma per fraudulent vote. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence of voter fraud results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to a minimum of five year to maximum life banishment from Nova Roma.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a third offence of voter fraud results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Third offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted of voter fraud retains the right of provocatio.
Law III: Lex Cornelia de multis civitatibus
Preamble: The system and process of becoming a citizen in Nova Roma is easy and with that ease there exists the possibility of abuse. The possibility of people creating multiple citizenships is a real and present danger to the Republic of Nova Roma.
This lex has two key aims:
1.. To establish and define what multiple citizenships are.
2.. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining multiple citizenships may be punished.
I. For the purpose of this lex, multiple citizenships will be defined as: The possession of more than one voter code or entry in the Album Civium by any individual.
II. Possession of a proxy voter code does not fulfill the multiple citizenship requirement.
III. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence results in an incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended punishment should equate to two-year banishment from Nova Roma. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area of jurisdiction.
IV. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence will result in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person convicted under this law retains the right of provocatio.
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:39:05 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
Just a few comments for clarification.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 2:40 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal
Salvete quirites, et salve Astur mi amici,
Gnaeus Salix Astur writes:
> You are right that the best thing would be to have "absentee
> ballots". I would certainly support that. I wonder if it would
> be actually possible (certainly, our current technology would
> allow it).
We might ask the Rogators. They're the ones who would have to
deal with the pragmatic issues of counting the ballots.
Sulla: Exactly, the Rogators will have records of the voter code and how it was voted.
> But voting proxies? That raises many questions:
>
> * How could you actually know that Paulina Gratidia has voted what
> you wanted her to vote in your name? Votes are secret.
She could print out the page showing my vote, and save that for
later. That'd be conclusive proof, though in practicality I trust
her to vote for me as I'd ask her to. But I recognize that not
all proxies might enjoy such a level of trust.
Sulla: Every citizen, upon voting gets a receipt of their vote. I always save mine and print it out.
> * Imagine you have not returned yet and there is an additional
> votation. Is your proxy still valid?
I think a proxy could be specified to last for a given duration,
though I didn't see that specified in the proposed law.
Sulla: It is there, let me quote, "A Proxy vote would be the voluntary release of one's voter code (with or without instructions) to another individual for the express purpose to cast a vote in the immediate election."
> Can Paulina still vote in your name without you giving specific
> instructions?
It'd depend on the specifications of my proxy assignment to her.
> Can she vote whatever she wants in your name without you even
> knowing it?
Again, that would depend on how I assigned the proxy, and my
choice would depend on how long I expected to be out of touch
and how likely my chances of having at least some contact via
telephone.
Sulla: Exactly, if you give her specific instructions and she fails to follow them through, she would be in violation of the voting fraud law.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:26:23 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Marine.
--- "Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>"
<equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> escribió:
> Salvete quirites, et salve Astur mi amici,
>
> Gnaeus Salix Astur writes:
> > You are right that the best thing would be to have "absentee
> > ballots". I would certainly support that. I wonder if it would
> > be actually possible (certainly, our current technology would
> > allow it).
>
> We might ask the Rogators. They're the ones who would have to
> deal with the pragmatic issues of counting the ballots.
I would be very interested in knowing their opinion, as well as our
senior consul's opinion, about this possibility.
What do you think, gentlemen? Would this be possible?
<<snipped>>
> > If your answer is "yes", then I'm afraid that our conceptions on
> > the seriousness and importance of our democratic institutions are
> > quite divergent (and I think that that is not the case) :-).
>
> Oh, you're certainly correct there. I think that any assignment of
> proxies should incorporate the same care that exists in the
> assignment of proxies to vote shares of corporate stock.
Is there some macronational government that allows voting proxies? I
would be interested in knowing what *their* requisites are.
> I should probably make it clear that I'm not endorsing the
> proposed lex. I expect I'll be voting against it as it's
> currently written. But I do think it's a good idea to provide
> a process for citizens who must be without net access to be
> able to vote. I see the idea of proxies as a good step in
> that direction, provided that appropriate safeguards are
> instituted.
The problem is that they are not institued by this law.
Consul Sulla has stated that he vetoed the gens reform proposal because
it was "too hasty". It is my impression that, with these three laws,
consul Sulla has tried to present a hasty solution to important and
complex issues. One which, according to his own standards, should be
vetoed.
I am not against the general intents behind these legislative
proposals: voting fraud should be punished, multiple citizenships
should be banned, and a system of absentee voting should be
implemented. But the iunior consul's proposed solutions are simply not
good enough. That's why I will vote NO on these proposals.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de> |
| Date: |
Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:19:56 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites
--- "Gnaeus Equitius Marinus wrote:
> Salvete quirites, et salve Astur mi amici,
>
> Gnaeus Salix Astur writes:
> > You are right that the best thing would be to have
> "absentee
> > ballots". I would certainly support that. I wonder
> if it would
> > be actually possible (certainly, our current
> technology would
> > allow it).
>
> We might ask the Rogators. They're the ones who
> would have to
> deal with the pragmatic issues of counting the
> ballots.
As elected Rogator for the next year I clearly support
*proxy votes*. From my macronational experience
(Switzerland) this system - of course adapted to our
online community - works well. We here have 4 ballots
every year about different subjects. We get all the
ballot papers sent by mail and have to fill them in
and either send them back by mail or hand them in at
ballot sunday. Now, if one is not able to do so,
either out of sickness or something else, one can
designate someone who hands it in instead. In this
case, the designated person has to be specified on the
envelope and has to prove his identity when handing it
in.
The proposed *proxy votes* would offer the same
possibility. Of course there is space for fraud, but I
don't think that any citizen who cannot vote
him/herself would designate someone unthrustworthy to
so on his/her behalf.
Valete bene,
=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors (WAS: inactive senators and augurs) |
| From: |
"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:53:14 +0000 |
|
Salve Apollonii Corde:
Exactly my feeling. I still don't know what went on during the gens
debates. I think it was given out later on because of the controversy and
the nasty fights, but by then I was so tired trying to figure out what's the
issue, as they kept avoiding telling us it, that whenever I saw a post
headed by that gens debate I simply deleted it.
I thought there is a good reason for keeping deliberations behind closed
doors, and if we cannot be present and see what happens there, then let the
editor be there to tell us about it.
The Honourable Drusus mentioned that the tribuni are present at the
debates, but all they tell us about is the result of votes. We don't know
what was said. I think it is supposed to be secret, but what if a Senator
has in mind a project to feed us plebeians to the lions. It would be nice
to hear his arguments. (no reflection intended on the present Curia, as
they are all virteous and dedicated).
At the end, I don't want to be too loud about it. A great many
Novaromani, outspoken ones, don't seem to care much about being romans which
tends to put a damp on the whole thing (no connection whatsoever to above
issue). So for me, the company of the original romans and the latin
language are what's important, and there are novaromani who share that love,
and I'll keep to that, but I'll contribute an opinion here and there when
I can.
Thank you for your reply Apollonii Corde and Vale.
Galerius Peregrinator.
>From: "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@strategikon.org>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors (WAS: inactive senators and augurs)
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:58:37 +0000 (GMT)
>
>A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Galerius Peregrinator and
>to all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>C. Galerius Peregrinator wrote:
>
> > And talking about the Senate, deliberations are made
> > behind closed doors.
>
>Abstract: I'm going to say that this wasn't the case
>historically; that we should think about whether it
>should be the case here; that it shouldn't be; how it
>could be done otherwise.
>
>
>On a historical note, I believe I'm right in saying (I
>think I read it in Andrew Lintott's 'The Constitution
>Of The Roman Republic') that in the ancient republic
>the doors of the Curia (Senate-House) actually
>remained open throughout meetings, and that members of
>the public could thus come and watch through the
>doorway. There were even occasions when a meeting was
>disrupted by a crowd of people coming in from the
>Forum! Of course, the number of people who could
>realistically fit in the doorway to watch would have
>been limited, but evidently it was considered
>desirable, or at least not a problem, for meetings of
>the Senate to be open to public scrutiny. (Anyone who
>disagrees that any of this paragraph is accurate,
>please disagree now.)
>
>Now, some may have noticed that I don't generally make
>historical points and then fail to comment. I don't
>think we *should* fail to comment if we find that our
>practice differs from that of the ancient republic: we
>should consider whether it is a good or bad point on
>which to differ. (Anyone who disagrees with this idea,
>please comment now.)
>
>So, should we depart from ancient practice in this
>case? I don't want to state a very strong case,
>because I simply don't know how meetings of our Senate
>work (In a chatroom? On an e-mail list?) and therefore
>how one would go about opening them to public view,
>and what the implications would be. But my feeling in
>principle is that we really should be able to see what
>goes on in the Senate-House.
>
>Firstly, because the ancients could, and what good
>reason could there be for us to do differently in this
>case?
>
>Secondly, because a great deal of unnecessary
>argument, speculation and even rancour can result from
>the announcement of a Senate voting-result without any
>exposition of the arguments that were heard on both
>sides (we saw this with the gens reform bill veto: we
>had to have the same argument on the main list as must
>have been had already in the Senate, and the main list
>version was probably a good deal more chaotic, I'd
>like to imagine). Additionally to this point, if a
>bill passes through the Senate and is then put to the
>Assembly it would surely be extremely helpful for
>ordinary voters to see the arguments of astute and
>experienced statesmen on the subject.
>
>Thirdly, because it is entirely in keeping with the
>spirit of the Roman constitution, with its massive
>emphasis on 'checks and balances', that the Senate
>should be subject to the scrutiny of the people.
>
>(Anyone who disagrees with any of the three above
>arguments, please comment now.)
>
>How could it be done? As I say, I don't know how
>debates actually take place, but the easiest solution
>would seem to me to be for the Tribunes to publish
>(not to the main list, because the message would be
>tediously large, but on the website) the minutes of
>every meeting after the end of the meeting. This would
>be consistent with their function as set out in the
>Constitution IV.a.7.b, to whit, 'To be privy to the
>debates of the Senate, and keep the citizens informed
>as to the subjects and results thereof'. (Anyone who
>considers this impractical or illegal please comment
>now.)
>
>Thanks for listening.
>
>Cordus
>
>=====
>
>
>www.strategikon.org
>
>
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:40:58 -0000 |
|
Salvete quirites, et salve Astur mi amici,
Gnaeus Salix Astur writes:
> You are right that the best thing would be to have "absentee
> ballots". I would certainly support that. I wonder if it would
> be actually possible (certainly, our current technology would
> allow it).
We might ask the Rogators. They're the ones who would have to
deal with the pragmatic issues of counting the ballots.
> But voting proxies? That raises many questions:
>
> * How could you actually know that Paulina Gratidia has voted what
> you wanted her to vote in your name? Votes are secret.
She could print out the page showing my vote, and save that for
later. That'd be conclusive proof, though in practicality I trust
her to vote for me as I'd ask her to. But I recognize that not
all proxies might enjoy such a level of trust.
> * Imagine you have not returned yet and there is an additional
> votation. Is your proxy still valid?
I think a proxy could be specified to last for a given duration,
though I didn't see that specified in the proposed law.
> Can Paulina still vote in your name without you giving specific
> instructions?
It'd depend on the specifications of my proxy assignment to her.
> Can she vote whatever she wants in your name without you even
> knowing it?
Again, that would depend on how I assigned the proxy, and my
choice would depend on how long I expected to be out of touch
and how likely my chances of having at least some contact via
telephone.
> If the answer is "no", then an absentee ballot would prove
> both more simple and secure.
Yes, it seems that way to me too, though I'd want to check with
the Rogators and get an opinion from them before proceeding one
way or another.
> If your answer is "yes", then I'm afraid that our conceptions on the
> seriousness and importance of our democratic institutions are quite
> divergent (and I think that that is not the case) :-).
Oh, you're certainly correct there. I think that any assignment of
proxies should incorporate the same care that exists in the
assignment of proxies to vote shares of corporate stock.
I should probably make it clear that I'm not endorsing the
proposed lex. I expect I'll be voting against it as it's
currently written. But I do think it's a good idea to provide
a process for citizens who must be without net access to be
able to vote. I see the idea of proxies as a good step in
that direction, provided that appropriate safeguards are
instituted.
Valete,
-- Marinus
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors (WAS: inactive senators and augurs) |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:50:49 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve Aule Apolloni,
> Abstract: I'm going to say that this wasn't the case
> historically; that we should think about whether it
> should be the case here; that it shouldn't be; how it
> could be done otherwise.
Two years ago, there was a proposal to conduct Senate debates
in full view, which we debated and ultimately voted against.
We did, however, enact a Senatus Consultum at that time that
would reveal the votes of Senators, and that is why the voting
results published by the tribunes have had individual votes
for the past two years, where before there were only the totals.
The Senate decided not to allow everyone to see the debates for
several reasons.
One of these was that confidential matters are sometimes discussed
that might be harmful to the reputation of some citizen if the
discussion was more widely seen. The Senate has seen and evaluated
evidence of possible misconduct in office by appointed magistrates,
and debated their removal; this is something that cannot be done
if the subject of the debate can see everything. Registration of
trademarks and domain names is also something that must be discussed
privately, to prevent some mischief-maker from trying to do it before
we do.
We also must consider the honor of the Senate as an institution.
Some of the debates within the Senate are rather nasty, such as
those in March 2001 and September 2002. It would diminish the
Senate if all of the mud-slinging is seen.
Additionally, the private nature of Senate meetings allows Senators
to freely and concentrate on the issues more than their reputations.
If these debates were in public view, every post from a Senator would
be a speechmaking opportunity, intend to advance a political career.
Senators would be more interested in "sound bites" and self-promotion
than in getting work done. But when only fellow Senators and Tribunes
are present, there is less of that.
If we were to open up the Senate debates to public view, the content
of those debates would deteriorate. The more pompous or ambitious
Senators would dominate the list with insincere speechmaking; and
sensitive issues would not be brought up at all (instead, they'd be
discussed privately between the Consuls and a few trusted friends,
thus depriving the rest of the Senate of a chance to consider those
issues).
> So, should we depart from ancient practice in this
> case? I don't want to state a very strong case,
> because I simply don't know how meetings of our Senate
> work (In a chatroom? On an e-mail list?)
A mailing list, much like this one.
> Secondly, because a great deal of unnecessary
> argument, speculation and even rancour can result from
> the announcement of a Senate voting-result without any
> exposition of the arguments that were heard on both
> sides
I think the argument and rancor would be even worse if the Senate
debates were public - Senators' arguments would be echoed, dissected,
commented upon, and argued against on the main list simultaneously,
making this forum even more political than it is now.
> (we saw this with the gens reform bill veto: we
> had to have the same argument on the main list as must
> have been had already in the Senate, and the main list
> version was probably a good deal more chaotic, I'd
> like to imagine).
The debate was even more intense in the Senate; it would have
lessened the dignity of all involved if every word had been made
public.
> How could it be done? As I say, I don't know how
> debates actually take place, but the easiest solution
> would seem to me to be for the Tribunes to publish
> (not to the main list, because the message would be
> tediously large, but on the website) the minutes of
> every meeting after the end of the meeting. This would
> be consistent with their function as set out in the
> Constitution IV.a.7.b, to whit, 'To be privy to the
> debates of the Senate, and keep the citizens informed
> as to the subjects and results thereof'. (Anyone who
> considers this impractical or illegal please comment
> now.)
The Tribunes certainly could increase the amount of reporting that
is done; they should collectively decide how much to publish, and take
into account that some matters should be kept private, and that
only the best parts of Senators' words are deserving of public view.
Vale, Octavius.
--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Censor-Elect 2756
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:14:33 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, consul Germanice.
--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net> escribió:
> Salve Tribune,
>
> > b) Why should we allow "proxies"?
>
> Practically speaking, it's almost impossible to prevent. If someone
> gives his voter code to another, there'd be no way to detect where
> the vote came from without the Rogatores, Curator, and Censores
> illegally sharing information, and even then the results would be
> inconclusive.
>
> Nothing forbids the practice now; even if we tried to ban it, it
> would be no more effective than a ban against voting while drunk.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
A certain measure might be difficult to enforce. However, we should not
*encourage* this kind of practice, like this proposal will do.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:21:37 -0000 |
|
Gnaeus Salix Astur asked:
> b) Why should we allow "proxies"?
Because sometimes citizens must be away from places where they
have computer access, but still wish to vote in an election.
The alternative would be to issue "absentee ballots" which would
have to be mailed to some location, or to have citizens not vote
for as long as they're unable to access the net.
Suppose, for example, that I were recalled to active duty and sent
to somewhere remote. I might still have occassional telephone
conversations with Paulina Gratidia, and she could tell me about
some upcoming vote. Then, if proxy voting is allowed, she could
vote for me provided I had made all the arrangements for her to do
that. That way my vote would be recorded. Otherwise, my vote would
be lost for the duration of my time away from net access.
-- Marinus
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Contra Legem Corneliam Octaviam de Assiduis et Capitibus Census |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:47:12 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
In my opinion, to approve this proposal would be a *big* mistake.
The Lex Vedia de Assiduis et Capitibus Census established the principle
that new citizens should not be asked to pay taxes in their first year.
Sulla: And they do not have to pay their tax their first year or any year after that. That is not the purpose of the revision. The purpose of the revision is to change the classification of new citizens from Assuidi to Capiti Censi. That is all. The remainder of the law spells out that if a new citizen WANTS (totally voluntary) become an Assuidi, they can pay the current year's tax (as we all have done, and must do to remain an Assuidi) and then they will be placed into the Assuidi class of citizenship. I think this is a very reasonable law.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:23:53 -0800 |
|
Ave,
And that is exactly why I included proxies.
The Senate has established proxys as a means for Senators who are unavailablely detained to voice their vote, I see no reason to prevent the People from utilizing the same tool.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Second Consular Proposal
Gnaeus Salix Astur asked:
> b) Why should we allow "proxies"?
Because sometimes citizens must be away from places where they
have computer access, but still wish to vote in an election.
The alternative would be to issue "absentee ballots" which would
have to be mailed to some location, or to have citizens not vote
for as long as they're unable to access the net.
Suppose, for example, that I were recalled to active duty and sent
to somewhere remote. I might still have occassional telephone
conversations with Paulina Gratidia, and she could tell me about
some upcoming vote. Then, if proxy voting is allowed, she could
vote for me provided I had made all the arrangements for her to do
that. That way my vote would be recorded. Otherwise, my vote would
be lost for the duration of my time away from net access.
-- Marinus
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| Subject: |
RES: [Nova-Roma] Contra Legem Corneliam Octaviam de Assiduis et Capitibus Census |
| From: |
"Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:49:57 -0200 |
|
Salvete Quirites.
I just couldn't agree more with our honorable Cn. Astur.
I do think that citizens should get familiarized with how NR works _before_
being asked to pay.
Asking newcoming people to pay means exactly a way of creating a kind of
entrance fee.
Then you can say: "this is not an entrance fee because one is not obligated
to pay; one just pays if one wants".
But one can pay if one wants by sending donations.
If we start charging taxes since the beggining of a new citizen's
citizenship we will be creating a knd of prejudice, because if this new
citizen doesn't pay, he/she will lose some rights.
If this law proposal is to avoid fraudulent new citizenships, what could be
done is to forbid new citizens to vote in their first year at NR, what I
think that would not be a correct measure.
Once again I say, we should encourage new members to become novaromans and
not make it more difficult. To give them the same rights that someone who is
already a citizen is the best way to encourage them. I think that we should
just give some advantages for those who have been citizens for a long time
(such as the Century Points), and NOT to steal the rights from those who are
new.
Valete bene.
______________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae
tagenialis@yahoo.com.br
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ#: 75873373
______________________________________________
-----Mensagem original-----
De: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@yahoo.es]
Enviada em: terça-feira, 10 de dezembro de 2002 16:59
Para: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: [Nova-Roma] Contra Legem Corneliam Octaviam de Assiduis et
Capitibus Census
Salvete, Quirites.
Since the contio on the new consular proposals has already begun, I
think it is time for us to discuss on the *very important* issues that
these legislative proposals touch.
Let's begin with the first one:
> Law I: Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi
>
>
>
> Preamble: The purpose of this amendment will be to revise section
> III. C of the Senatus Consultum on taxation and add an amendment to
> the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi, by placing all newly
> approved citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
>
>
>
> This Lex has two key aims.
>
>
> 1. To modify the current status by placing all newly approved
> citizens in the classification of Capiti Censi.
>
> 2. To give new citizens the option to be reclassified as Assidui
> by paying the current year's tax in full.
>
>
> I. All persons obtaining citizenship after this lex takes
> effect will have Capiti Censi status until and unless payment is
> made.
>
> II. Any citizen of the Capiti Censi may become Assidui by paying
> the appropriate amount, as defined by Senatus Consultum. If payment
> is made during a contio or election, the change in status will take
> place after the election concludes.
>
> III. Upon receipt of tax payment in full, the applicant is
> considered to assume the rights and privileges of Assidui as defined
> by the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi and the applicant will be
> allocated to a rural tribe and appropriate century allocation.
In my opinion, to approve this proposal would be a *big* mistake.
The Lex Vedia de Assiduis et Capitibus Census established the principle
that new citizens should not be asked to pay taxes in their first year.
This was a wise decision, because it allowed new citizens to get some
familiarity with the way in which Nova Roma works before they were
asked to put money for its growth (they could always put money on the
treasury before tax season if that was their decision).
What is the purpose of this proposal? Is it to get more money? Right
now, Nova Roma needs more active citizens far more than it needs money.
Besides, I don't think that we will get much money from it. I think
that new citizens will fall into one of these three categories:
1.- Those who discover that there is a required "entrance fee" and
decide to pay rigth away. These citizens would probably pay as well in
their due time under our current legislation, so there would be no
gain.
2.- Those who discover that there is a required "entrance fee" and
decide not to pay (or who decide to leave NR altogether). These
citizens could have become tax payers in the regular tax season, after
knowing more about Nova Roma. In my opinion, this proposal would make
us loose many tax payers and many active citizens.
3.- Those who don't even discover that there is a required "entrance
fee". These will seldom become really active citizens (not to mention
tax payers), and this lex will not do much to improve their situation.
I think that Nova Roma should strive to have as many citizens as
possible counted among the Asssidui, and not the other way round.
Otherwise, we will be becoming a true oligarchy (I am not calling
names, I am talking about Nova Roma's political system), with the
*many* drawbacks that a government of a few, by a few and for a few has
(believe me, I know a little bit about that kind of government).
I will vote NO on this proposal. I do not see any benefits coming from
it. I do not see any reason to approve it.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
___________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] The Third Consular Proposal |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:52:23 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
Someone who actually haves more than one citizenship can be in one of
two situations:
1.- That person can have made a mistake, by requesting citizenship
*twice* (sometimes prospective citizens waiting for citizenship
approval can get nervous, and it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up
requesting citizenship twice, in the fear that their first request has
been ignored). In this situation, he will probably have used his real
name and data on both applications. The censores should have spotted
this; if they haven't (they are busy), then one of the citizenships
should be cancelled, and the citizen should not receive further
punishment.
Sulla: As a previous Censor let me comment on this. To have more than one citizenship application is very possible for the reasons stated by Tribune Salix and there are possible many reasons. But in those multiple applications there are similarities, email addresses, contact information and even IP information (if I recall correctly). It is unlikely that in that event multiple citizenships will be approved by our Censors. This law focuses on those citizens who might go out of their way to purposely create multiple email addresses and try to hide themselves and create new citizenships.
2.- If someone requests several citizenships intentionally, then that
individual would be a danger to Nova Roma. He should be expulsed for life.
Sulla: I totally agree with you, but I felt that this law having such a drastic punishment enforced would face a tougher chance in passing. If this law passes the Comitia overwhelmingly, then I hope our new consuls for the coming year will strengthen it even more.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
___________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors |
| From: |
MarcusAudens@webtv.net |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:46:37 -0500 (EST) |
|
Honored Citizens of Nova Roma;
In regard to the open door policy for the Senate, my objection is that
you the Citizens of Nova Roma have raised me to this position to make
decisions in the Senate with my colleagues. I only ask that you allow
me to do that in my own way.
I may well enter the Senate feeling strongly one way on Monday, and make
up my mind to reverse my original decision on Tuesday, based on what I
hear in the Senate during a discussion, or what I gain in a private
conversation with a single Senator. I may well recieve a private letter
from a Citizen that brings up a new aspect to the question before me, or
I may do some research to gain a better insight in the concerns that I
have. You will never know what has made up my mind or changed it, so
what will be gained by watching me go through the decision making
process??
Very often here on the Main List someone gets very critical because they
do not have all of the necessary information, or have not done thier
research thoroughly. I do not care to have my every action noted and
criticised in public, when few, if any, have all of the information that
I have at the moment or will have at the time of the vote.
Like Senator Maximus, and other Senators as well, I have no problem in
making a comment about my decisions, and where I feel they are
necessary, I do. However, I cannot imagine except for a simple
curiosity, why anyone would want to watch me gather information, discuss
points, argue against one person and agree with another, just to see me
cast a vote which may or may not have any revelance to what I have said
on the Senate Floor, and which will be announced with my explanatory
comments by the Tribunes within a day or so.
The Honored Senior Consul is quite correct, that on occasion the Senate
debates get a little rough. For those of you who are interested look
back in the archives, and review the arguments made previosly against a
Senate open door policy. They have not changed with the passage of
time.
As it is, I can discuss with colleagues in an open and effective way,
and do the job that you have elected me to do in the way that I have
found works best for me. Why do you wish to make that task more
difficult, and less effective than it is? Why must you be inside our
collective head when you have left it to the Senators to make the
decisions here in the Senate?
If you trust me, and if you have faith that I will always act for the
best in NR, and in your best interests, then what else do you want from
me? If you do not trust me, or think that I will not act in the best
manner for Nova Roma, then tell me so. To date no-one has indicated a
distrust of my efforts in the Senate, and so, my friends, I would ask
that you would give the Senate the privacy that they need to carry out a
difficult task that you have (for the most part) elected these Senators
to do.
I think that it can be said that I post often enough to the Main List,
about my views on a wide variety of ideas, so that everyone who is
interested pretty much knows who I am and what I stand for. I have
answered every question directed at me, and I have periodically offered
my assistance to Citizens in a variety of ways. On occasion I have been
blunt, but I have never hesitated to state my feelings based on what I
believed to be true and necessary. I believe that is what a Senator
should do, and with very few exceptions, you the Citizens of Nova Roma,
who are collectively those for whom I labor, seem to agree with those
ideas.
In closing, I would ask that you would not wish to second guess me, in
my Senate deliberations, and would grant me the closed doors that I
believe that I need to continue to do my job in the future, to your
satisfaction, as well as my own.
Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Financial Reports (was Election for Tribune) |
| From: |
"Julilla Sempronia Magna <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:38:05 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas
<ksterne@b...>" <ksterne@b...> scripsit:
>
> SNIPPED
> These financial reports are available to be posted on the website
> should the Consuls and Senate so desire. I do not have the
> technical expertise to do so myself.
Technical expertise is not necessary, my dear Gai Polilli! That is
what scribae curator araneae are for :-)
I would be happy to do this for you, if you'll be so kind as to send
me the reports (titled by quarter, so I don't mix them up) I will be
glad to format them for our web site and post them on the Aerarium
Saturni.
---
cura ut valeas,
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Daily Life in Ancient Rome
|||| Rogatrix, MMDCCLV
Scriba, Nova Roma Curator Araneae
Curatrix Araneae,
America Boreoccidentalis
http://ambor.konoko.net
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] The Second Consular Proposal |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:02:22 +0100 (CET) |
|
Salvete Quirites.
Let's have a look at the second legislative proposal:
> Law II: Lex Cornelia de suffragatoribus malis
>
>
>
> Preamble: Voter fraud is acknowledged as a real and present danger to
> the republic of Nova Roma. The obtaining of additional fraudulent
> votes is currently an uncomplicated procedure.
>
>
>
> This lex has three key aims:
>
>
> 1. To reduce significantly the ease and incidence by which additional
> fraudulent votes may be garnered.
> 2. To establish recourse by law by which those obtaining such votes
> may be punished.
>
> 3. To define proxy votes and to prevent their potential abuse.
>
> I. For the purpose of this lex, voter fraud is defined as: The use,
> or attempted use, of more than one vote by a single individual in any
> given election with the intent of defrauding the senate and the
> people of Nova Roma. Appropriate use of proxy voting is not
> considered voter fraud for the purposes of this lex. However,
> inappropriate use of proxy voting would be considered voter fraud for
> the purposes of this lex.
>
>
>
> II. Defining a Proxy vote. A Proxy vote would be the voluntary
> release of one's voter code (with or without instructions) to another
> individual for the express purpose to cast a vote in the immediate
> election.) If instructions are included in the proxy, the recipient
> of the proxy must follow those instructions. If the instructions are
> not specific regarding a candidate or lex, the recipient must abstain
> in that vote. Failure to follow these instructions would constitute
> voter fraud under this law.
>
> 1.. It is up to the person who gave the proxy to request the
> Censors to change his/her voter code at the end of the election.
> However, if the person who received the proxy attempts to use the
> voter code in any subsequent election, then that person would be
> guilty of voter fraud.
>
>
> II. Discovery and confirmation of a first offence of voter fraud
> results in an incurred penalty to the perpetrator, administered by
> the praetors of Nova Roma. For a first offense, the recommended
> punishment should equate to one-year banishment from Nova Roma per
> fraudulent vote. However, the Praetors will retain privilege of
> discretion to determine the best course of punishment in this area of
> jurisdiction.
>
>
>
> III. Discovery and confirmation of a second offence of voter fraud
> results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator,
> administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Second offence punishment
> equates to a minimum of five year to maximum life banishment from
> Nova Roma.
>
>
>
> IV. Discovery and confirmation of a third offence of voter fraud
> results in a further incurred penalty to the perpetrator,
> administered by the praetors of Nova Roma. Third offence punishment
> equates to banishment for life from Nova Roma.
>
>
>
> V. In accordance with section II.b.5 of the constitution, a person
> convicted of voter fraud retains the right of provocatio.
I think that we do need a law against voting fraud. However, there are
several points that I would like to discuss:
a) Why do we have to be so lenient? Do we really want to allow someone
to actually commit *three* voting frauds? To me, one voting fraud seems
one too many. This is a very serious offence, because it is an attack
against the legitimacy of the political system of Nova Roma.
b) Why should we allow "proxies"? In my opinion, a vote should be a
personal and intransferable affair. Neither in my own macronation nor
in ancient Rome have I ever heard of "proxies" in political votations.
If someone can not vote personally in one occasion for some reason, so
be it. I see "proxies" as a potential source of constant conflict.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.
___________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors |
| From: |
qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:31:47 EST |
|
In a message dated 12/10/02 5:00:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cordus@strategikon.org writes:
> On a historical note, I believe I'm right in saying (I
> think I read it in Andrew Lintott's 'The Constitution
> Of The Roman Republic') that in the ancient republic
> the doors of the Curia (Senate-House) actually
> remained open throughout meetings, and that members of
> the public could thus come and watch through the
> doorway. There were even occasions when a meeting was
> disrupted by a crowd of people coming in from the
> Forum! Of course, the number of people who could
> realistically fit in the doorway to watch would have
> been limited, but evidently it was considered
> desirable, or at least not a problem, for meetings of
> the Senate to be open to public scrutiny. (Anyone who
> disagrees that any of this paragraph is accurate,
> please disagree now.)
To confirm:
Yes, the doors were opened. Yes, Tribunes were stationed at the doors in the
Late Republic to inform interested people who was speaking, perhaps even what
about. (We have no additional information.) They were also there to keep
people out.
During the middle republic no, the crowd could advance no further then the
rostrum.
Yes, the people interrupted a meeting. I believe that is in Appianus right
after Gaius Marius retook Rome. I also remember Marius had them all removed
to Forum and killed. Not a very good precedent.
The Senate according to Cicero in the late Republic met twice a year in the
open (likely Mars field) the crowds could watch the debates, but Cicero makes
it very clear
they retired inside to vote.
>
> Now, some may have noticed that I don't generally make
> historical points and then fail to comment. I don't
> think we *should* fail to comment if we find that our
> practice differs from that of the ancient republic: we
> should consider whether it is a good or bad point on
> which to differ. (Anyone who disagrees with this idea,
> please comment now.)
>
It is a bad point. The Senate is the advisory body. What the Senate
discusses is really not the peoples' business until they are asked to ratify
the Consuls and Senate's decision. Then they can agree or deny, by using
their power of the franchise. Polybios makes that very clear in his
"Discussion of the forms of States"
> So, should we depart from ancient practice in this
> case? I don't want to state a very strong case,
> because I simply don't know how meetings of our Senate
> work (In a chatroom? On an e-mail list?) and therefore
> how one would go about opening them to public view,
> and what the implications would be. But my feeling in
> principle is that we really should be able to see what
> goes on in the Senate-House.
>
We should never depart any ancient practice that was un necessary
You can after the vote for SCs are carried out. You also can read the each
Senator's remarks if they make them why they voted as they did. I always
make some remark, to indicate my frame of mind
> Firstly, because the ancients could, and what good
> reason could there be for us to do differently in this
> case?
>
If you think about it, the people have the same. The Tribunes are charged
with posting the vote and remarks, instead of the Praetor mounting the Rostra
and announcing them.
In any case, the people were not allowed into the chamber at any time.
> Secondly, because a great deal of unnecessary
> argument, speculation and even rancour can result from
> the announcement of a Senate voting-result without any
> exposition of the arguments that were heard on both
> sides (we saw this with the gens reform bill veto: we
> had to have the same argument on the main list as must
> have been had already in the Senate, and the main list
> version was probably a good deal more chaotic, I'd
> like to imagine). Additionally to this point, if a
> bill passes through the Senate and is then put to the
> Assembly it would surely be extremely helpful for
> ordinary voters to see the arguments of astute and
> experienced statesmen on the subject.
>
If you read the authors, that was part of the gossip and entertainment of
Roman life
Remember they did not have TV
> Thirdly, because it is entirely in keeping with the
> spirit of the Roman constitution, with its massive
> emphasis on 'checks and balances', that the Senate
> should be subject to the scrutiny of the people.
>
The check and balance for the people, is exercising their franchise.
It is the same as the original republic. You don't like the lex, don't vote
for it.
Q Fabius Maximus
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Financial Reports (was Election for Tribune) |
| From: |
"gaiuspopilliuslaenas <ksterne@bellsouth.net>" <ksterne@bellsouth.net> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:52:51 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites,
The recent postings in the original title of this subject thread may
have caused some questions, so I thought I would provide the
following regarding Nova Roma financial reporting in 2755.
Reporting, Accountability, and Safeguards
The collection of taxes was the single most significant financial
event for Nova Roma in 2755. The collection, accounting for, and
remittance of these taxes was my major responsibility as Quaestor
along with my colleague, Titus Octavius Pius, and considerable
assistance from both Consuls.
Prior to the beginning of "tax season", the Senate approved a budget
(prepared by Senatrix Patricia Cassis) illustrating the planned use
of the funds. The budget, along with data from prior years is here:
http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/budget2755.html
Financial records were maintained for all collections whether via
PayPal, money order, check, or cash (even a few Euros were collected
which I converted to US dollars at my expense). These records were
maintained in a spreadhseet, which I designed, for quick sorting to
determine payments by Province, gens, etc. Complete records of Nova
Roma's assets, liabilities, equity, income and expenses were also
maintained in a separate accounting software system which I
purchased using my own funds. PayPal, the spreadsheet and the
accounting software were routinely reconciled to check for any
errors.
During the course of the tax collection, regular reports were made
to the Consuls (and through them to the Senate). Recently, I
prepared complete financial statements for the Consuls and Senate
through October 2755 and prepared a draft budget, which I believe
the Senate has approved. Once the year is complete, I will prepare
full year financial statements to be used, in part, for Nova Roma's
filing for permanent status as a not-for-profit corporation in the
USA.
Safeguards against any misappropriation of the tax moneys were
maintained. The first was the reporting mentioned above. Second,
all cives were notified when their tax payments were received and
that status was posted on the Nova Roma website. Anyone who paid,
and did not receive notice of such was, therefore, alerted to make
an inquiry. Third, at least four people had access to PayPal
notification (PayPal was the source of the majority of the payments
received) requiring all 4 to be in collusion if any moneys were to
be misappropriated. Fourth, I was the only person who actually
received payments in check or cash, and I utilized the snail mail
address of my office to do so. Every payment was photocopied and
retained should there be any questions. In addition to the
safeguards provided by the reporting of payments to the citizens, I
was also bonded against any theft by an insurance company, the cost
of which I bore myself.
Regular reports of tax collection were posted to the Main List.
Examples are dated Feb. 3 and Mar. 19, 22, 28. The final report was
posted to the ML on April 1, 2002 with additional reports detailing
payment by Province and Gens on April 1 and 2.
These financial reports are available to be posted on the website
should the Consuls and Senate so desire. I do not have the
technical expertise to do so myself.
My thanks to Marcus Marcius Rex for pointing out that the practice
of posting quarterly reports to the website, begun by Senatrix
Patricia Cassia, had fallen into disuse. I am writing a "Quaestors
Handbook" for the use of future magistrates and I will be sure to
include this practice as an option for Quaestores to consider.
My thanks also to Pompeia Cornelia for her very kind words.
Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Consular Quaestor
Praefectus Regio Magna Flumen America Austrorientalis
Candidate for Tribune.
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] TRIBUNII PLEBIS |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:36:39 +0100 |
|
Salve Quirites!
Many patricians have endorsed candidates as Tribunus Plebis even if
we can't vote. This can be because the Tribunes in Nova Roma are
first and formost the "protectors" of the Constitution and not the
Ordo Plebis.
In accordance with this I would like to see that the citizens of Nova
Roma consider the following candidates to join the Senior Tribuna
Illustra Diana Moravia Aventina as Tribunii Plebis:
Honorable Marcus Marcius Rex, who I know to be a good leader in the
Academia and very knowledgeable in Roman law.
Honorable Lucius Didius Geminus Sceptius, I know as a good man from
his work in the Academia.
Honorable Gaius Modius Athanasius, has impressed me as a good man and
the contacts I have had with him has been more than satisfactory.
and
Honorable Lucius Pompeius Octavianus I know as a good and hard
working Propraetor in an important continent and Provincia.
I really don't know the other two candidates, I am sure that they are
honorable men, but as it is I would prefer the four above mentioned.
Please observe according to the new LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN
COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBVTA all plebain citizens may vote for _two_
candidates in the Comitia Plebis Tributa (Assembly of the Plebeians)!
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
Senior Consul Designatus MMDCCLVI A.U.C.
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
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Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
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