Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] chatroom
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:05:10 +0100

If anyone wants to pop in to the chatroom, I'll be there for the next 30
minutes or so.

And by the way, Marinus, what time on the 16th?

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

>Our next market day will be next Monday, the 16th of December.
>All citizens and interested guests are invited to join the
>market day chat at

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] chatroom
From:	Richard Winter <rwinter@nwlink.com>
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:41:56 -0800

i just joined and have no ID yet a far as i know..
or a password...

Marcus Ritulius Hiberus
"Seminate aurum in Terram albam Foliatam..."

At 01:05 AM 12/14/02 +0100, you wrote:

>If anyone wants to pop in to the chatroom, I'll be there for the next 30
>minutes or so.
>
>And by the way, Marinus, what time on the 16th?
>
>Vale,
>Diana Moravia Aventina
>
> >Our next market day will be next Monday, the 16th of December.
> >All citizens and interested guests are invited to join the
> >market day chat at
>
><http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat>http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Marcus Ritulius Hiberus
"Seminate aurum in Terram albam Foliatam..."

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Back in Rome
From:	"MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS <MLCRASSVS@aol.com>" <MLCRASSVS@aol.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:44:24 -0000

MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS QUIRITIBVS S.P.D.

AVETE PATRES CONSRIPTI ET CIVES AB ROMA

Conscript Fathers, fellow citizens, forgive my recent absence from
Rome, serious marital breakdown has led to my enforced absence,
indeed, as my ex-wife gets the PC after SATURNALIA so I may again be
absent for a while! However, do not fear while out in the Provinces I
shall continue to bear the Eagle of Rome before me until my return to
the urbs.

i) I learned with sadness of the loss of Gens. Varia, I hope that
the citizens involved will have a change of heart and I hope we shall
see this gens flourish again in the near future despite this
setback. QVIRITES do not lose heart Rome was not built in a day and
overcame many setbacks in antiquity on the path to greatness.

ii) May I say humbly that the many debates on macronational politics
whilst interesting do run the risk of going off topic and creating
friction between CIVES. Our constitution guarantees no conflict of
interest - here we should all be Romans.

iii) I see that our new brother in Rome ANTONIVS ADRIANVS sparked
something of a furore over his thoughts on inactive citizens
ETCETERA. I think there are many ways to judge a good Roman citizen,
just as there are many ways to serve Rome, and I would say
respectfully that none of us should be hasty to rush to judgements on
fellow CIVES - we all have our particular strengths and weaknesses -
we all have something different to offer - we all have other demands
on our time. I agree inactive citizens, PATERFAMILIAS and gens
reform are areas that need to looked at but we must be careful,
understanding, measured and innovative in how we approach this.

iv) May I also convey my sincere congratulations to MANIVS
CONSTANTINVS on his election as QVAESTOR may fortune and the gods
smile upon his term in office. I know he will serve RES PVBLICA
diligently and faithfully, and make all of us here proud. I am
envious! One day, the gods permitting, I too hope to run for office
and serve Rome. It is my ambition to eventually ascend the CVRSVS
HONORVM - my current personal difficulties coupled with the fact that
I am not yet a citizen 6 months make me reluctant to put forward my
name forward as a candidate for plebeian Aedile. Otherwise I should
have been honoured to do so. I always fancied myself as a Tribune of
the people [grin]! Well hopefully in the future!

v) As you all know, I recently finished an article on LEG III AVG
LIBERATRIX pia vindex, for the Nova Roman website on Roman North
Africa, in conjunction with my esteemed colleagues MANIVS
CONSTANTINVS SERAPIO ET QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS. Hopefully we shall
have it on-line soon.

Anyway the oil in my lamp is burning low, the servants have all gone
to bed and the villa is quiet. I must rise early tomorrow to meet my
clientele before heading to the FORVM.

Hopefuly, I shall be able to talk to you all again before SATURNALIA
but if not, enjoy the holidays and I'll talk to you all in the new
year.

VALETE,

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
PATERFAMILIAS
CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

"MORIBVS ANTIQVIS RES STAT ROMANA VIRISQVE"

VERITAS LVX MEA

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] SPQR
From:	"T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@yahoo.com>" <titan_242002@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:39:31 -0000

What exactly does SPQR mean?

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: SPQR
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:02:55 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@y...>"
<titan_242002@y...> wrote:
> What exactly does SPQR mean?

Senatus PopulusQue Romanus, commonly translated as The Senate and
People of Rome.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] SPQR
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:06:51 -0600

Salve Tite Corneli

> What exactly does SPQR mean?

Senatus Populusque Romanus

It translates to "The Senate and People of Rome".

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals - Tax Payment
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:13:14 -0000

Salve Tite Labiene,

> This is not entirely true. While no law specifically targets voter fraud, any
> civis may petition the praetores in order to sue any other civis who has harmed
> him or her. Voter fraud harms the entire electorate.

The main point of my post was to highlight that the disparity between an X number of assidui votes compared to a X number of capiti censi votes is actually far greater than many may perceive. However, your clarification on legal procedure is greatly appreciated.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals - Tax Payment
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 2002 19:52:59 -0800

Ave Solaris,

It is extremely easy. Anyone with a couple of hours to kill could create upwards of 50 email address with Yahoo or hotmail. Then they would just need to fill out the citizenship application form. Give fake contact information and once those applications are approved you will be able to get a voter code and you would be classified as Assuidi. It is simply that easy. Anyone can do that, for all we know it might already be done.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals - Tax Payment

Salve Decime Iuni,

<< The degree is actually pretty substantial. Century 83,
which is reserved for the capiti censi, currently has
891 citizens. The remainding classes in the 5th
century have about 15 citizens.

Currently, if a perpetrator applies for and attains 20
citizenships (costing him nothing, remember), these
will all automatically be given assidui status. Lets
assume that these 20 fake citizens are distributed
randomly amongst the 5th class (and to be honest I'm
not sure how this works), then we may end up with the
following situation: >>

(snipped)

MOS: How likely is this to happen? I can't realistically imagine someone actually doing this.

Vale bene,
Solaris

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals - Tax Payment
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:42:31 -0600 (CST)

Salve Consul,

> It is extremely easy. Anyone with a couple of hours to kill could
> create upwards of 50 email address with Yahoo or hotmail. Then
> they would just need to fill out the citizenship application form.

That would also require the Censores to be either stupid or lazy.
Fifty applications, all in a few hours, all from the free email
providers? That would certainly be noticed. Any unusual patterns
in applications are noticed and would be cause for further
investigations - such as checking phone numbers against actual
directories.

Also, the IP address that submits each application is preserved;
if too many come in in a short time from similar addresses, that
will also be noticed.

Obtaining multiple fraudulent citizenships *is* possible, but it
would take a considerable amount of time to do so.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Censor-Elect 2756

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: SPQR
From:	"scott dolleck" <billgatesson@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:09:18 -0700

I thought it meant...

Sono Pazzi Questi Romani ( Those Romans Are Crazy)

He He...

Lucius Avisius

>From: "quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: SPQR
>Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:02:55 -0000
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@y...>"
><titan_242002@y...> wrote:
> > What exactly does SPQR mean?
>
>
>Senatus PopulusQue Romanus, commonly translated as The Senate and
>People of Rome.
>
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals - Tax Payment
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:46:01 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals - Tax Payment

Salve Consul,

> It is extremely easy. Anyone with a couple of hours to kill could
> create upwards of 50 email address with Yahoo or hotmail. Then
> they would just need to fill out the citizenship application form.

That would also require the Censores to be either stupid or lazy.
Sulla: That is possible but not necessarily true.

Fifty applications, all in a few hours, all from the free email
providers?

Sulla: Sure. Even if it was spread out over a week for the applications to be submitted then the Censors would not notice a trend.

That would certainly be noticed.

Sulla: Not if it was spread out over say a week or a month.

Any unusual patterns
in applications are noticed and would be cause for further
investigations - such as checking phone numbers against actual
directories.

Sulla: This would be a good question for our Censors. I know Censor Equitius phoned Nerva when he reapplied but how many phone calls have been made to verify applications?

Also, the IP address that submits each application is preserved;
if too many come in in a short time from similar addresses, that
will also be noticed.

Sulla: If the person had a static IP you would be correct, but Dial up access utilizes the Dynamic IP protocol, each application most likely would have a different IP if spread out over a week.

Obtaining multiple fraudulent citizenships *is* possible, but it
would take a considerable amount of time to do so.

Sulla: I believe it is more than just possible. And sure it would take "some" time but by no means allot of time.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Censor-Elect 2756

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Nova Roma Eagle
From:	"Timothy P. Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com>" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 05:17:15 -0000

Salve,

A new Novaromaeagle@yahoogroups site has been set up. This site is
for the Eagle staff to communicate about the newsletter. Any citizen
can e-mail suggestions for the Eagle to the site as well. This will
cut down on the Eagle related messages on the ML. If you agreed to
serve on the Eagle staff please subscribe to this site when you have
a moment.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:10:42 +0100

Salve, Deci Iuni Palladi Invicte.

Comments after the, heavily snipped, quotes below.

"deciusiunius " wrote:
> As has been mentioned to you already, this law does not attempt to do
> all you have pointed out. That is not its function. Its function is
> simply to place into the Capita Census new citizens who do not pay a
> tax when they join Nova Roma.

Yes, and why would we want to, in this manner, punish people who have
yet to fail in paying their taxes? I'll use this year as an example.
Should they have joined after april, their taxes would've been 150% that
of "old" citizens, who paid on time. Had they joined after september,
they would not have been able to become assidui at all, until the next
taxation period. Even IF they were willing to pay for services they'd
probably be quite unfamiliar with.

> This is demagoguery at its best. I salute you for raising the level
> of hyperbole in this discussion through such creative scare tactics!
> However, let's be honest, our democratic institutions are not being
> put in danger by these laws.

In what way is it democratic to decide that those who has yet to make
any monetary contributions to a nation are less suited than those who
have to determine it's future? Astur is not a demagogue by any means, I
would ask you to apologize to him for the accusation either in private
or in public.

> As Consul Octavius pointed out, preventing proxy voting is
> impossible, nor I would add is it desirable. We are simply
> recognizing the reality that proxy voting exists and are giving some
> guidelines as to how it should be carried out.

It may be impossible, but at least in my opinion, it isn't at all
desirable. We shouldn't condone it just because we can't prevent it.

> This is hardly a compelling reason to oppose a law. Right now there
> is no law governing this situation, this will remedy that. If later
> the law is in practice found to be too lenient, it can be amended. I
> would rather start out too lenient at first until the law has been in
> effect for awhile.

He was not just stating that the law was too lenient, he was also
mentioning the case of unintentional duplicate citizens. Such who notice
two or three gentes who appeal to them and apply for all, then suddenly
notice they've got three citizenships instead of the one they really
wanted. Should they be punished just because they didn't fully
understand the application process? As the proposed law is currently
phrased, they would be.

> In theory, what you say sounds reasonable. In practice I think you
> will find once you have a little more experience as a magistrate that
> sometimes it is simply impossible to foresee all possible
> ramifications of a law until it is put into effect and has time to
> work. This is especially true in Nova Roma, when quite often a law is
> the first law of its kind regulating a particular situation. Once a
> proposal has been a law for awhile, circumstances may and probably
> will arise that were impossible to foresee before. That is when a law
> is amended to encompass the new situations. Also, one can make the
> error of trying to do too much in a potential law. In general with
> laws of this sort I think it is better to take small steps and do it
> well rather than try to do too much and stumble.

Here, I actually agree. But one must always try to consider any proposed
law from all viewpoints, and if it's impossible to get it completely
right from the first try, one should at least strive for perfection.

> These laws are quite reasonable. They are first steps that in
> tandem regulate potential voter fraud. As other circumstances
> arise later, the laws can be amended.

Now you're confusing me. If all the proposed laws are against voter
fraud, why do the first one hamper the activities of legitimate new
citizens? Shouldn't they be innocent until proven guilty?

Okies, I'm rounding off with my own opinion on the proposed laws as well
as a disclaimer. I'm against the proposed laws, all of them, partly
because of their intended purpose, partly because of how they would
definitely require amendment later, and since we already know this, the
problem should be fixed before the proposal is passed, not after.

I'm not attacking anyone as a person, I'm just against the proposal. Any
insults, real or imagined, are purely unintentional. Unless I actually
yell "Nyeh, nyeh, ye're agley!" at you, I'm probably just abusing the
english language instead of actually going for your throat. It sometimes
gets mixed up with my swedish cognitive processes and results in truly
horrific results.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:54:46 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 12:11:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
from@darkeye.net writes:

> . I'm against the proposed laws, all of them, partly
> because of their intended purpose, partly because of how they would
> definitely require amendment later, and since we already know this, the
> problem should be fixed before the proposal is passed, not after.
>

You are against them because they are too Roman, or not Roman enough?
The Romans, if you study the law and how they thought, proposed their laws
for needs at
the moment. At this moment, we need to inform potential law breakers that a
lex is on the books to prevent voter fraud. It is to act a deterent, if the
penelty stated was permament banishment, would that be a bit harsh? As for
the "mistaken" attempts at citizenship, that is why we have a hearing. If
the citizen was a blundering fool, I believe the advocate would use that as
the defense. The Iudex likely would dismiss, in fact it may never get to
trial, if this fact came forth in discovery.
This has to do with more of dislike of Cornelius Sulla, then the fact these
leges are bad for Nova Roma.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals - Tax Payment-To Iunius
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:54:43 -0000

Salve Galeri Aureliane,

> I find your email fascinating and informative plus slightly frightening. However, I also feel that you may have too > much time of your hands (small joke).

Haha. For this you should blame my boss perhaps. No, on second thoughts perhaps we should keep this between ourselves :-)

> You should apply to one of the consuls for a position as an accensi; I think you have the right skills for that kind of > work (really serious). Vale.

Thankyou for the compliment.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Back in Rome
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:55:23 +0100

Salve MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS,

It's nice to see you back in the Forum. and your post certainly shows that
even though you have been away, you have a good handle on what has been
happening in our nation!

As to your marital breakdown: these things do happen and there is usually
someone hurt in the process. But don't look back and don't let it get you
down! This is a new beginning for you and that alone should fill you with
excitement for the future! And I truly believe that if you have a good
heart and honest intentions, Venus will bring you someone to love. And she
just may be 'the one' for you. So hang in there, ride the storm and
evrything will be alright!

Vale and the best of luck! This citizen at least, will remember you in her
prayers tonight :-)
Diana Moravia Aventina

> Conscript Fathers, fellow citizens, forgive my recent absence from
> Rome, serious marital breakdown has led to my enforced absence,
> indeed, as my ex-wife gets the PC after SATURNALIA so I may again be
> absent for a while!

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:13:25 +0100

Salve Titus Octavius Pius,

> Such who notice
< two or three gentes who appeal to them and apply for all, then suddenly
< notice they've got three citizenships instead of the one they really
< wanted. Should they be punished just because they didn't fully
< understand the application process? As the proposed law is currently
< phrased, they would be.

Sorry, but between the time they apply and a few months, they should realize
quite clearly that they have 3 citizenships and should speak up. I think you
are underestimating the intelligence of new citizens, who just because they
are new, does not make them ignorant.... If someone joins any organization
they will eventually notice that they are listed 3 times and in NR it is
even more obvious because they will recieve 3 different names.

Even still, if you are not in favor of the proposals that is of course, your
right as is my right to think that the propsals are a step in the right
direction.

>I'm probably just abusing the
<english language instead of actually going for your throat. It sometimes
<gets mixed up with my swedish cognitive processes and results in truly
whorrific results.

LOL! Niet waar, hoor! Your English is simply flawless and you are a fine
example of the excellence of the Swedish educational system.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:42:04 +0100

Salve, Diana Moravia Aventina.

Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Sorry, but between the time they apply and a few months,
> they should realize quite clearly that they have 3
> citizenships and should speak up.

Yes, they realize, and then they are punished, since the proposed law
makes no difference between this instance and someone who knowingly
keeps quiet about the mistake, if it was a mistake in the first place.

> LOL! Niet waar, hoor! Your English is simply flawless and you
> are a fine example of the excellence of the Swedish educational
> system.

Please, credit where credit's due. My 4th grade teacher did a good job
of teaching me the basics, but since then I consider myself self-taught.
The swedish educational system has it's merits, but many flaws as well.
Had I not spent considerable time on my own reading english novels and
honing what skills I had through online conversations, I might have been
no better than my teachers in junior high and highschool. Ack! The
humanity! ;)

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:20:17 +0100

Salve, Quinte Fabi Maxime.

Comments below, probably in the midst of heavy snippage.

qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> You are against them because they are too Roman, or not
> Roman enough?

Definitely because they are not roman enough. Imagine the public outcry
should a consul of the middle or late republic try to move 80% of the
populace into the head count, not excluding any of the other classes!
I've got a feeling that would've made the famous "Et tu, Brute?" quote
have a completely different origin. And now it's not only known "law
breakers" who are being moved there, instead we are starting to assume
people guilty until proven otherwise. Not my cup of tea, thank you.

> The Romans, if you study the law and how they thought,
> proposed their laws for needs at the moment. At this moment,
> we need to inform potential law breakers that a lex is on
> the books to prevent voter fraud. It is to act [as] a deterent,
> if the penelty stated was permament banishment, would that
> be a bit harsh?

Need, you say. What need is there? Do we know of any duplicate
citizenships, as of yet? No. Ergo, there is no need. However, I do agree
with a preventative approach, just not this one. As the law is written,
it seems even an honest mistake would require at least a few months'
worth of banishment. If the punishment recommended by law (What's with
that wording, by the way? Is that common legal practice elsewhere in the
world?) is a two-year banishment, it would be hard for a Praetor to
motivate no punishment save for a warning, which is all an honest
mistake should incur.

> As for the "mistaken" attempts at citizenship, that is
> why we have a hearing. If the citizen was a blundering
> fool, I believe the advocate would use that as the
> defense. The Iudex likely would dismiss, in fact it
> may never get to trial, if this fact came forth in
> discovery.

What on earth are you talking about? Hearing? Advocate? Unless I'm
reading the proposal and our constitution wrong, the Praetor may freely
select whatever punishment he or she feels like, with a two-year
banishment as recommendation. They may, should they want to, let the
citizen speak up on his/her own behalf, but the only way they're
guaranteed this is through their constitutional right to provocatio,
which the proposal also helpfully points out to them. And having a vote
in the comitia on any given case isn't a good way to handle legal
issues.

> This has to do with more of dislike of Cornelius Sulla,
> then the fact these leges are bad for Nova Roma.

Thank you for correcting my reasons why I oppose these laws, it is good
to have finally have an explanation as to why I do the unreasonable and
contrary things that I do. I feel deeply relieved to know the cause of
these unfortunate slips, and humbly ask all of you to forgive my
insolence.

What I do or do not feel for the magistrate has little to do with the
quite objective reasons I've put forth, nor does whatever theories you
may have on what these feelings are. Should you happen to read the
proposals, you will notice that the first one bears the name of my
paterfamilias as well as that of Sulla, yet I spoke out against that
proposal as well as the others.

It is my sincere belief that none of the proposed laws will help our
republic, but may instead cause real damage to it. This belief comes
from how I've read and interpreted our constitution and our current
leges, not from any "dislikes", real or imagined, on my part.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:[Nova-Roma]_Re:_SPQR?=
From:	"=?utf-8?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:22:34 +0100

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@y...>"
> <titan_242002@y...> wrote:
> > What exactly does SPQR mean?
>
>
> Senatus PopulusQue Romanus, commonly translated as The Senate and
> People of Rome.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
>
SPECTATI CIVES OMNES

No, SPQR does not mean as it is usually thought Senatus Populusque
Romanus. I leave out underlining that a capital letter for an enclitic
conjunction never occurred in all Roman epigraphy: SPQR is

SENATUS POPULUSQUE QUIRITUM ROMANORUM.

Bene valete omnes

Gallus Solaris Alexander

Bononia
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/ter
ms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Absence
From:	"mjk" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 04:24:41 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

I just want to let you know that I'll be away most of the time from tomorrow until the end of March. It is my busy season now and I'm off to Northern British Columbia to work on some oil and gas projects. I won't be able to spend time on the internet because we'll be using Sat phones and cellulars on these remote locations and at $2.50 / min the oil companies would take a dim view of internet surfing time. I can still keep in contact with my fellow Romans on regular email and will be taking some reference books with me. After Dec. 27 you can reach me at daxmikek@telus.net. I'll catch up on things on my week off every 3 or 4 weeks.

Have a great holiday season!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Scriba Praefecti

AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

PAX ROMANA

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 05:45:08 -0800 (PST)

--- Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net> wrote:
> Salve, Quinte Fabi Maxime.
>
> Comments below, probably in the midst of heavy
> snippage.
>
> qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> > You are against them because they are too Roman,
> or not
> > Roman enough?
>
> Definitely because they are not roman enough.
> Imagine the public outcry
> should a consul of the middle or late republic try
> to move 80% of the
> populace into the head count, not excluding any of
> the other classes!
> I've got a feeling that would've made the famous "Et
> tu, Brute?" quote
> have a completely different origin. And now it's not
> only known "law
> breakers" who are being moved there, instead we are
> starting to assume
> people guilty until proven otherwise. Not my cup of
> tea, thank you.
>
In the middle and late republic a large percentage of
the citizens were allready in the head count. New
citizens were assigned to the head count if they had
no means to pay taxes. If they had the means to pay
taxes and refused to do so they would lose thier
citizenship along with enough properity to pay the
taxes.

After the Social War when the Socii were granted
citizenship at first they were limited to 10 tribes in
order to limit thier power in Roma. It took a
dictorial decree by Sulla to distribute the Italians
among all 35 tribes. The People favored continuing the
limitations they had voted in.

Freedmen were never assigned to an Rural tribe when
they became citizens. They allways found themselves in
one of the Urban tribes and they and thier decendants
remained in the Urban tribe unless they managed to
become wealthy enough to bribe a Censor into moving
them to a Rural tribe.

The Romans who favored continuing the restrictive
citizenship aren't the ones that wound up dead. M.
Livius Drusus was assassinated for attempting to grant
citizenship to the Socii. P. Clodius Pulcher was
assassinated after proposing that freedmen be
distrubited among the Rural tribes.

Romans weren't in the habit of granting citizenship to
just anyone. Generally they didn't favor granting
newcomers citizenship equal to thier own. They never
would have granted new citizens a privilage like
allowing them to join the Assidui without paying taxes
when people who were allready citizens didn't have
that right.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quiet Citizens
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:21:01 EST

In a message dated 12/13/2002 9:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wlr107@yahoo.com writes:

> Example: The Eagle. If you do not pay taxes, I believe you should not
> get a copy in any format. That would be a benefit of a tax-paying
> member? I do not see the real problem of antying up the fees,
> expecially here in the US!

This would of course limit the marketability of the publication to potential
advertisers. If I were a potential advertiser I would want to know
circulation or anticipated circulation. If non-citizens cannot receive a
copy then that would really hurt the publication (IMO), and would also hurt
Nova Roma -- because that would limit it use as a recruitment tool.

G. Modius Athanasius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quiet Citizens and the Eagle
From:	"William Rogers <wlr107@yahoo.com>" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:44:06 -0000

Ave Tiberius Galerius Paulinus,

Thanks for the info on who can get the Eagle by mail! :-) The point I
was trying to make is that the advantages of paying taxes COULD be
a "free" subscription to the "Eagle" (or something else, not sure
what's set up. ANother possibility is to send members who pay their
taxes a membership card, or something else....maybe a sticker. Just
floating some dirffrent ideas here.

So...where do I send cash to get the eaclg, and how much? :-) Time to
support the Eagle! :-)

Publius Tarquitius Rufus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve, Fellow Nova Romans:
>
> Even taxpaying citizen will not get the Eagle if they have not paid
the subscription rate of $12.00 per year. This is one dollar per
issue and postage will likely cost more than that, not to mention
copying, set-up computer programs, web sit etc. There are about 55-
60 people who over the past year or so that have paid and will get
the next 12 Eagles. The Eagle will be given to all citizens for one
month ( which Issue yet to be determined) so they can see what they
are missing. If any citizen has a business (Roman oriented or not)
think about placing an ad in the Eagle. We are also thinking about
asking the Senate to allow the Eagle staff to sell a special tee
shirt or two to help make the Eagle self-financing. Also are there
any citizens that own a PRINTING company (another reason we need a
real census)?
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Curator Differium-Elect &
> Candidate for Quaestor
> Fortuna Favet Fortibus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William Rogers
> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 9:16 AM
<SNIP!>

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] My final thoughts on the Consular Proposals
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:49:15 -0000

Salve,

While there are parts in all three proposals that I'm not exactly
doing backflips over, I am planning to vote in favor of all three.

Despite all the carping criticism of the proposals, I have not seen
anyone come up with any better ideas. If someone can come up with a
better set of ideas rather than regurgitating the same criticisms ad
nauseam before the Cista opens then I will vote agains these
proposals.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quiet Citizens
From:	"William Rogers <wlr107@yahoo.com>" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:50:54 -0000

G. Modius Athanasius,

> This would of course limit the marketability of the publication to
potential advertisers. If I were a potential advertiser I would want
to know circulation or anticipated circulation. If non-citizens
cannot receive a copy then that would really hurt the publication
(IMO), and would also hurt Nova Roma -- because that would limit it
use as a recruitment tool.

*****VERY good point! You can tell I am NOT in advertising! :-)
Thanks for the good point!

Publius Tarquitius Rufus

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Subject:	Re:[Nova-Roma] Re: SPQR
From:	"T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@yahoo.com>" <titan_242002@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:30:19 -0000

Thank you Q.Cassius Calvus.------T.Cornelivs Romanvs.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "sa-mann@l..." <sa-mann@l...> wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T.Cornelivs
<titan_242002@y...>"
> > <titan_242002@y...> wrote:
> > > What exactly does SPQR mean?
> >
> >
> > Senatus PopulusQue Romanus, commonly translated as The Senate and
> > People of Rome.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Q. Cassius Calvus
> >
> SPECTATI CIVES OMNES
>
> No, SPQR does not mean as it is usually thought Senatus Populusque
> Romanus. I leave out underlining that a capital letter for an
enclitic
> conjunction never occurred in all Roman epigraphy: SPQR is
>
> SENATUS POPULUSQUE QUIRITUM ROMANORUM.
>
> Bene valete omnes
>
> Gallus Solaris Alexander
>
> Bononia
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/ter
> ms/
> >
> >
> >

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Subject:	Re:[Nova-Roma] Re: SPQR
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:22:59 -0000

Nay, thank Gallus Solaris Alexander for the more correct SENATUS
POPULUSQUE QUIRITUM ROMANORUM. Either way still means The People and
Senate of Rome (GRIN)

Calvus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@y...>"
<titan_242002@y...> wrote:
> Thank you Q.Cassius Calvus.------T.Cornelivs Romanvs.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:19:40 -0800

Avete Omnes,

I must state that this is an absolute first, I have been told by Quaestor T. Octavius Pius that my laws are not Roman enough. Lets analyze this for a moment. The Romans in the Mid to late Republic guarded their citizenship. They did not give it away and when they did they controlled who they gave it to and limited the extent of their voting power when they did give it away. The Lex Vedia Assuidi was passed in this exact same vein. Nova Roma, like ancient Rome, has taxes. Taxes pay for the state. If you do not pay your taxes your voice is weakened. Those citizens who pay their tax maintain their voice and actually increase their standing in the Res Publica. Upon the Lex Vedia Assuidi's passage approximately 86% of our population was placed in the Capiti Censi status (891 citizens) http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/century?century=83 At the time of the tax 14% of our citizens paid for the tax this left a remainder of 86% of our citizens to be classified as head count.

Now I hear crys that if we pass this current law that 80% of the populace will be moved to head count status? I say that that is ALREADY the case. Please see the facts that 86% of our citizens did not pay the tax.

Back from my digression, I have been told that my laws are not Roman enough? Let me ask you this question, What would the ancients have done? Do you honestly believe that the ancients would have just granted citizenship to anyone? Do you think that the ancients would have given full voting rights to these new citizens? If you say yes, show me the proof. I seem to recall the Socii War where long standing Italian allies decided it was worth the risk to go to war to OBTAIN that citizenship. Because Rome would not give her citizenship to them. When Rome did finally start giving citizenship they limited the voting power until my namesake took steps to equalize the situation.

I believe that these laws are Roman to the core. I believe that the ancients would have supported these measurse because it goes to the very nature of citizenship. The Romans believed their citizenship was the most highest honor a person can strive to attain. We simply do not have that understanding anymore. When was the last time a People went to war to obtain citizenship? We all should really think about that and reflect. Can you truly understand and put yourself in the mindset of those people who actually died to receive the highest honor, Roman Citizenship?

Most Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristoffer From
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments

Salve, Quinte Fabi Maxime.

Comments below, probably in the midst of heavy snippage.

qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> You are against them because they are too Roman, or not
> Roman enough?

Definitely because they are not roman enough. Imagine the public outcry
should a consul of the middle or late republic try to move 80% of the
populace into the head count, not excluding any of the other classes!
I've got a feeling that would've made the famous "Et tu, Brute?" quote
have a completely different origin. And now it's not only known "law
breakers" who are being moved there, instead we are starting to assume
people guilty until proven otherwise. Not my cup of tea, thank you.

> The Romans, if you study the law and how they thought,
> proposed their laws for needs at the moment. At this moment,
> we need to inform potential law breakers that a lex is on
> the books to prevent voter fraud. It is to act [as] a deterent,
> if the penelty stated was permament banishment, would that
> be a bit harsh?

Need, you say. What need is there? Do we know of any duplicate
citizenships, as of yet? No. Ergo, there is no need. However, I do agree
with a preventative approach, just not this one. As the law is written,
it seems even an honest mistake would require at least a few months'
worth of banishment. If the punishment recommended by law (What's with
that wording, by the way? Is that common legal practice elsewhere in the
world?) is a two-year banishment, it would be hard for a Praetor to
motivate no punishment save for a warning, which is all an honest
mistake should incur.

> As for the "mistaken" attempts at citizenship, that is
> why we have a hearing. If the citizen was a blundering
> fool, I believe the advocate would use that as the
> defense. The Iudex likely would dismiss, in fact it
> may never get to trial, if this fact came forth in
> discovery.

What on earth are you talking about? Hearing? Advocate? Unless I'm
reading the proposal and our constitution wrong, the Praetor may freely
select whatever punishment he or she feels like, with a two-year
banishment as recommendation. They may, should they want to, let the
citizen speak up on his/her own behalf, but the only way they're
guaranteed this is through their constitutional right to provocatio,
which the proposal also helpfully points out to them. And having a vote
in the comitia on any given case isn't a good way to handle legal
issues.

> This has to do with more of dislike of Cornelius Sulla,
> then the fact these leges are bad for Nova Roma.

Thank you for correcting my reasons why I oppose these laws, it is good
to have finally have an explanation as to why I do the unreasonable and
contrary things that I do. I feel deeply relieved to know the cause of
these unfortunate slips, and humbly ask all of you to forgive my
insolence.

What I do or do not feel for the magistrate has little to do with the
quite objective reasons I've put forth, nor does whatever theories you
may have on what these feelings are. Should you happen to read the
proposals, you will notice that the first one bears the name of my
paterfamilias as well as that of Sulla, yet I spoke out against that
proposal as well as the others.

It is my sincere belief that none of the proposed laws will help our
republic, but may instead cause real damage to it. This belief comes
from how I've read and interpreted our constitution and our current
leges, not from any "dislikes", real or imagined, on my part.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Historical_evidence_of_=93Senate_Open/Closed_Door=93?=
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:24:23 -0000

> God is everywhere - so he needs churches everywhere!
>
> Caesariensis.
>

Salve,

The Gods don�t need temples, but the worshipers do need. The
religious places and temples are for men, not deities. That�s why we
need temples wherever there is mankind�s settlement.

L. Arminius Faustus

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, me-in-@d... wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : "Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@y...>"
> >
> >Sure not. A christian pontiff represents also the will of its god,
as
> >well as an augurian adress. (But there is a change: the pagan gods
> >choose places, while the christian god want churches everywhere,
it
> >is EVER His Will building churches).
> >
> God is everywhere - so he needs churches everywhere!
>
> Caesariensis.
>
>
> --
> Personalised email by http://another.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Digest No 351 Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:40:00 -0500

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

Each new citizen is sent an automatic Welcome letter upon approval of their
citizenship, so anyone would know that they have more than one citizenship.
(I'll include a copy at the bottom)
We often have people change their minds about which gens they want and ask
if they need to send another application, to which we reply that we can
modify their file for them.

I'll be voting for the Lex Cornelia Octavius de Assidui et Capiti Censi!
Nothing stops someone from paying the tax as they join AND nothing prevents
people from joining and not paying. However, I do not think it right that
someone who has just joined and has not paid the tax should have the same
voting power as those who have invested their time and money.

As far as voter fraud and multiple applications all this could be greatly
reduced if we returned to a SIGNED form. Sent from an actual address with a
SASE (self addressed stamped envelope) this way the Censores could enter the
information onto the Data spread sheet and return the form, or copy, with
their ID# and Voters Code.
Further correspondence can be done via email, once positive (at least this
minimum level) identification is established, to maintain up to date
information.
As things are it is relatively easy to abuse the system. Though I must say
that for the most part I'm impressed by the honesty of those applying.
Anyway, I'll be voting for those proposals because they are doing
*something* about the situation, though not anything like what should be
done.

Valete

> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:13:25 +0100
> From: "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
> Subject: RE: Consular Proposals: My Final Comments
>
> Salve Titus Octavius Pius,
>
> > Such who notice
> < two or three gentes who appeal to them and apply for all, then suddenly
> < notice they've got three citizenships instead of the one they really
> < wanted. Should they be punished just because they didn't fully
> < understand the application process? As the proposed law is currently
> < phrased, they would be.
>
> Sorry, but between the time they apply and a few months, they should
realize
> quite clearly that they have 3 citizenships and should speak up. I think
you
> are underestimating the intelligence of new citizens, who just because
they
> are new, does not make them ignorant.... If someone joins any organization
> they will eventually notice that they are listed 3 times and in NR it is
> even more obvious because they will recieve 3 different names.

> Vale,
> Diana Moravia Aventina
---------------------------------------

Censor L Equi, I've asked the imterpreters to make translations and they
have sent them to me. I'm working with the web team to have these other
languages set as possible letters sent in addtion to the English version.

Salve, censores!

This is the list of interpreters:

German: T. Anneus Otho
French: S. Appolonius Scipio
Spanish and Latin: C. Salix Davianus
Portuguese : L. Arminius Faustus
Italiano: Aurelia I. Pulcra

This is the translation you asked in portuguese:

CARTA DE BOAS VINDAS (Welcome letter)

Salve et tibi Gratulari!

Esta carta � para inform�-lo que seu pedido de Cidadania foi recebido e
aprovado! Congratula��es, voc� � agora um cidad�o de Nova Roma! Se ainda n�o
o fez, por favor inscreva-se em nossa lista:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nova-roma

Tamb�m se voc� deseja receber not�cias oficiais, considere inscrever-se na
lista de An�ncios de Nova Roma:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce
� um grande modo de novo romanos se manterem atualizados uns com os outros e
saber o que esta acontecendo em nossa sociedade. Participe do nosso �chat�
toda semana e tamb�m considere a possibilidade de assinar o `The Eagle�,
nosso jornal mensal. Detalhes de tudo isso pode ser achados na p�gina do
Forum Romanum em nosso web site. http://www.novaroma.org/forum_romanum.html

Por favor, fa�a-nos saber se h� algo que possamos fazer para o ajudar a
come�ar em Nova Roma. O essencial � a constru��o de um senso de comunidade;
estamos mais esperando ver nossos colegas envolvidos do que inscrevendo-se e
nunca mais ouvirmos falar deles. Ficaremos felizes de responder a quaisquer
perguntas que voc� possa ter ou lhe indicar qualquer fonte que voc� possa
estar procurando.

Uma vez mais seja bem vindo, esperamos estarmos ouvindo falar de voc�!

Vale, Censores Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus et Caius Flavius Diocletianus

Salve et tibi Gratulari.

Dein Antrag auf Verleihung der B�rgerrechte ist eingegangen und wurde
best�tigt. Herzlichen Gl�ckwunsch, Du bist nun ein neuer B�rger von Nova
Roma. Falls Du es bislang noch nicht getan hast, solltest Du Dich in die
Email-Liste http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nova-roma eintragen.

Auch kannst Du Dich, falls Du lediglich offizielle Ank�ndigungen empfangen
m�chtest, in die Nova Roma Announcement-Liste
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaRoma-Announce eintragen.

Es ist schwierig f�r B�rger von Nova Roma, in Kontakt miteinander zu treten
und mitzubekommen, was in unserer Gemeinschaft passiert. Daher haben wir
auch ein Message Board http://venus.beseen.com/boardroom/j/17263 und halten
normalerweise jede Woche einen Live Chat ab.

Vielleicht m�chtest Du auch unser monatliches Nachrichtenblatt, den "Eagle"
abonnieren. Details f�r dieses alles entnehme bitte der Forum Romanum-Seite
auf unserer Website, http://www.novaroma.org/forum_romanum.html.

Bitte lass es uns wissen, wenn wir Dir irgendwie bei Deinem Start in Nova
Roma helfen k�nnen. Der wichtigste Aspekt f�r uns ist der Aufbau eines
gemeinsamen Sinnes f�r unsere Gemeinschaft, wir hoffen, die Leute
einzubinden, anstatt dass sie eintreten und man nie wieder von ihnen h�rt.

Wir werden Dir Deine Fragen beantworten oder Dir den Weg zu Ressourcen
weisen, die Du m�glicherweise suchst.

Nochmals: Herzlich willkommen. Wir freuen uns darauf, von Dir zu h�ren.

Vale, Censores Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus und Caius Flavius Diocletianus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Cato in print? (WAS: Quiet Citizens-A Moderate Response)
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 18:56:58 +0000 (GMT)

A. Apollonius Cordus to F. Galerius Aurelianus
Secundus and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

Aurelianus Secundus wrote:

> Let us remember that Cato the Censor was a grumpy,
> opinionated, tight-fisted, xenophobic, religiously
> conservative old man who just happened to be good
> with a pen and a turn of phrase (and whose books
> stayed in print for 2200 years)

I quite agree with your characterization of old Cato
(I think my favourite example is his theory that all
Greek doctors were members of a conspiracy to poison
Romans), but as to his books staying in print for 2200
years - I was under the impression that his history of
Rome, the 'Origins', has been completely lost, and
that of his book 'On Agriculture' only one or two
fragments survive, quoted by other writers. Have you
found the lost maunscripts? If so, please release them
to the academic community! :)

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Cato in print?
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:30:42 -0500

Salvete,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@s...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to F. Galerius Aurelianus
> Secundus and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> Aurelianus Secundus wrote:
>
> > Let us remember that Cato the Censor was a grumpy,
> > opinionated,...
>
> I quite agree with your characterization of old Cato

Lucius Equitius: And I disagree, it seems that some of you have opinions, yet Ironic to me is that while you have an opinion about the man you admit to not even knowing what he wrote!

t, and
> that of his book 'On Agriculture' only one or two
> fragments survive, quoted by other writers. Have you
> found the lost maunscripts? If so, please release them
> to the academic community! :)
>
> Cordus

Lucius Equitius: The whole book is available. In the Loeb version you can have the Latin with English translation on the facing page.

Cato et Varro
De Agricultura
ISBN-0-674-99313-6

Perhaps one should investigate for oneself before parroting common dogma. For me, the man had a wealth of knowledge which we wished to share. Some of his writing may seem cold hearted to us today but he lived in a different culture which valued things that we should consider worthy of remembering today, which is one of the reasons that Nova Roma exists I would dare say.

Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals: My Final Comments too
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:42:39 +0100

Salve Titus Octavius Pius,

I think that we can agree to disagree on this one, especially since you are
our next webmaster and can wreak havoc on me by adding a mustache to my
photo in the Albium Gentium :-))

> Please, credit where credit's due. My 4th grade teacher did a good job
> of teaching me the basics, but since then I consider myself self-taught.
Ahh, dear Pius, then you are just naturally brilliant <blatant sucking up> .
In any case, self taught or learned in school, I think that no one could
ever comment negatively on your use of English!

Vale!
Diana

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Consular Proposals
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:21:25 -0500

Sp. Postumius Tubertus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Salvete,

I personally must, in part, agree with the statement of Censor L. Equitius
where he says, "As far as voter fraud and multiple applications all this
could be greatly reduced if we returned to a SIGNED form. Sent from an
actual address with a SASE (self addressed stamped envelope) this way the
Censores could enter the information onto the Data spread sheet and return
the form, or copy, with their ID# and Voters Code.

"Further correspondence can be done via email, once positive (at least this
minimum level) identification is established, to maintain up to date
information."

My only qualm with this is the fact that perhaps part of this should be done
at the Provincial level, as mailing things into different countries could
get costly. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should give the
Provincial governors the power to grant citizenship. What I am saying is
that rather than having all postal correspondence done by mailing such to
the "official" mailing address, perhaps they could instead be mailed to an
appointed provincial contact, either a governor or Legate or Procurator...,
who would then, in turn, verify the information. From there, once the
information is verified, perhaps then the contact may then e-mail the
verified information to the Censores, who would either grant or deny the
citizenship. Further correspondence could then, as the Censor says, be done
by e-mail, once this minimum level of positive identification is
established. Perhaps a lex outlining a process similar to this, if it is
found acceptable, might be drafted and proposed in the future. Perhaps not.

That's my two denarii worth for now.

Valete,

Spurius Postumius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senaor Sulla
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:32:07 -0500 (EST)

Senator Maximus;

On several occasions you have accused Nova Roma Citizens of "not liking"
Senator Sulla as a reason for disagreeing with him and / or his
offerings.

I find that idea disagreeable to the degree being spoken down to, and I
do not appreciate it. Particularly, when the accusation is directed at
myself or another citizen who has taken particular trouble to explain
his ideas and his views as opposed to those proposed by Senator Sulla.

In most cases those who disagree with Senator Sulla have not met him,
and I don't believe that there are that many people in NR who are
shallow enough to dislike a person that they have not met. That they
disagree is expected in any given situation, and perhaps they may even
disagree strongly, but a face-to-face meeting is far different than an
internet meeting!!!

For myself, I have often said that I do not dislike Senator Sulla, as I
have never met him. That is the truth, and I do not appreciate someone
living 3000 miles away from me, who has met me only briefly, saying
otherwise. I would nor suppose that others lik it any better that I do.
I have not told you what you feel, and I do not expect you to tell me
what I feel. However, on several occasions he (Senator Sulla) has taken
actions which I do not agree with and which in my estimation injure NR
in specific ways. When that happens, I have called Sulla on such, just
as I have called you on your verbage and you have called me on various
items. I do not "dislike" you, but we often disagree simply because you
and I have a different view of what is proper in a Magistrate. The same
situation holds true for Senator Sulla. So, unless you have absolute
proof that I or any other citizen "dislikes" rather than disagrees with
any given citizen, I would ask that you confine such accusations to your
own personal concepts, and leave off these open generalizations as
responses on the Main List.

When and if Senator Sulla and I meet, I will extend my hand of
friendship as I have to every other Senator, that I have met face to
face, and with whom I have disagreed with on occasion, in every
instance.. What the gentleman then does with that handshake is solely
up to him in my view, and for my part, such is the business of myself
and Senator Sulla, and no-one else.

My views expressed on the NR Main List are derived from my view of the
world, my view of NR, my view of the Roman Virtues, many of the views
and ideas of my fellow colleagues in the Senate and serving Magistrates,
and the views that those who consider themselves my constituents (whom I
willing serve). If I am wrong, then I will gladly admit such, and if I
am right I will state such. There has been a significant argument
recently about the Senate and people knowing what is going on there. My
view is that those who know me from my postings to the Main List, as
well as to other lists to which I belong, do not need to know my
attitude or utterences in the Senate Chambers, since they already know,
in all probablity, how I will vote and why. Further, if something
unusual happens, and my vote is unexpected, they know that I will
explain my action and my reasoning. They also know that I will be
pleased to answer questions put to me, as well.

In closing, If I really disliked Senator Sulla, in the manner which you
have suggested, I would not have contacted him personnally on several
occasions to discuss personnally his actions, nor the times that I have
spoken to him about his views, nor the times I have asked and recieved
from him his promise to look forward to a quieter and more positive
attitude, nor the times that I have asked his friends to give me a
better understanding of the man, that I might be able to deal with him
more effectively. For the most part, he has improved from the early
years, and for that I am pleased. I take no credit for such, as the
improvement is solely a result of his own efforts. If I disliked the
gentleman as you have indicated in the past, I would not bother with
him, contact him, speak to him, ask for more insight to him, or even
consider his offerings. However, there are those in Nova Roma who
admire him, and some of these citizens, I strongly respect thier views
in this matter, as in others. Therefore I try (unless some untoward
action occurs with which I disagree very, very strongly) to see Senator
Sulla through thier eyes. You are one of those, to which I refer.

Respectfully and Sincerely;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Edorsing Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur and Illustrus Marcus
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:51:51 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

Before the complementary elecions in the Comitia Centuriata I wish to
endorse two excellent candidates: Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur and
Illustrus Marcus Arminius Maior.

Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur has done a tremendous job as a Tribune
with, among other things, his legislation work. He has been a hard
worker in the Tresviri (�the Leadership) of the Academia for more
than a year, planning the work of the Academia, recruiting teachers
and creating courses. Everywhere where he is active he is politite,
intelligent, hardworking and still holding on to his opinion. He has
meant a lot to Provincia Hispania and was one of those who got this
wonderful Provinicia up on its feet becoming one of the Provincae
that we really can be proud of. It would be a real loss for Nova Roma
not to have him as the Senior Praetor.

I have got to know Illustrus Marcus Arminius Maior as a Scriba to the
Censors, a position where You are not that visiable. As we have had
reasons to discuss matters both now and then during the two last
years, I have found that Illustrus Marcus Arminius Maior is a very
hardworking and knowledgable citizen, always ready to serve the Res
Publica. I also know that he is a very good Propraetor of Brasilia
and have found him to be both a kind and intelligent person. If he
comes in as the colleague of Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur, I think
that we will see a most interesting pair of Praetors, who will
probably work splendidly together.
--

Valete

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senator et Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Thules
AUCTOR LEGIONIS, Legio VII "Res Publica"
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
"Fautor Societatis Iuventutis Romanae"
************************************************
Senior Consul Designatus MMDCCLVI A.U.C.
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cfq_for_consul/index.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Integrity, Accountability, Reform"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Consular Proposals: My Final Comments too
From:	"metamorphosis2003 <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca>" <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:26:12 -0000

---Salve Diana:

Come, come now, fair amica.....easy on the compliments
there.....after all, we have to 'live' with Pius, and we wouldn't
want him to get a swollen head from too many compliments, now would
we? (grin, kidding).

I must say that he has, for one whose English is not his native
tongue, mastered the art of conveying sardonic wit via email.
(Compliment, really) something I have obvious trouble doing.\\

Sometimes if I attempt to get witty, or perhaps just a trifle
sarcastic, I get people writing me and thanking me for the compliment
(lol)!

Seriously, I confer that his English is good.

Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@p...>
wrote:
> Salve Titus Octavius Pius,
>
> I think that we can agree to disagree on this one, especially since
you are
> our next webmaster and can wreak havoc on me by adding a mustache
to my
> photo in the Albium Gentium :-))
>
> > Please, credit where credit's due. My 4th grade teacher did a
good job
> > of teaching me the basics, but since then I consider myself self-
taught.
> Ahh, dear Pius, then you are just naturally brilliant <blatant
sucking up> .
> In any case, self taught or learned in school, I think that no one
could
> ever comment negatively on your use of English!
>
> Vale!
> Diana
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Seantor Sulla
From:	"metamorphosis2003 <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca>" <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:32:23 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I tend to agree with Senator Auden's last post. I think the general
populace is reading the current legislation for what it is, and not
out of any personal dislike for my paterfamilias.

Goodness knows, and I am quite happy with Sulla as a paterfamilias,
that we have had to disagree with respect to certain legislations, ex
the Century Point Lex proposal. This disagreement was based on the
language of the proposal and not my subjective feelings of Sulla.

I know some magistrates are not in the least cozy with the Junior
Consul, but I do have more faith in the populace than to herald or
disapprove of proposed laws affecting them, based on feelings.

<<<<<<<<Sorry Senator Maximus, but you get a squirt from the infamous
squirt gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahh, not the squirt gun, NOOOOO!

Next time, it's the Boom Blaster!!!!

Po

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