Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quiet Citizens and the Eagle
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:35:32 -0500

Salve

You send your $12.00 (subscription not tax) to Nova Roma P.O. Box 1897 Wells, ME 04090

Vale

Tiberius
----- Original Message -----
From: William Rogers
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:44 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quiet Citizens and the Eagle

Ave Tiberius Galerius Paulinus,

Thanks for the info on who can get the Eagle by mail! :-) The point I
was trying to make is that the advantages of paying taxes COULD be
a "free" subscription to the "Eagle" (or something else, not sure
what's set up. ANother possibility is to send members who pay their
taxes a membership card, or something else....maybe a sticker. Just
floating some dirffrent ideas here.

So...where do I send cash to get the eaclg, and how much? :-) Time to
support the Eagle! :-)

Publius Tarquitius Rufus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve, Fellow Nova Romans:
>
> Even taxpaying citizen will not get the Eagle if they have not paid
the subscription rate of $12.00 per year. This is one dollar per
issue and postage will likely cost more than that, not to mention
copying, set-up computer programs, web sit etc. There are about 55-
60 people who over the past year or so that have paid and will get
the next 12 Eagles. The Eagle will be given to all citizens for one
month ( which Issue yet to be determined) so they can see what they
are missing. If any citizen has a business (Roman oriented or not)
think about placing an ad in the Eagle. We are also thinking about
asking the Senate to allow the Eagle staff to sell a special tee
shirt or two to help make the Eagle self-financing. Also are there
any citizens that own a PRINTING company (another reason we need a
real census)?
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Curator Differium-Elect &
> Candidate for Quaestor
> Fortuna Favet Fortibus
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William Rogers
> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 9:16 AM
<SNIP!>

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Legio X Fretensis IV Cohort?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:15:39 -0500

Salve,

Is anybody a member of Legio X in CA.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:17:19 -0600

I thought the Senate doors had to remain open so the Tribunes could listen

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Apollonius Cordus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

Abstract: I note appreciatively the arguments in
favour of closed doors; consider the historical
argument; and make a compromise suggestion.

Many thanks to the several Senators who have given
their comments on the advantages of keeping the Senate
doors closed. I was hesitant to offer an opinion on
the subject without having any personal experience of
Senate debate, and I see that I was right to be
hesitant: there are many things I hadn't thought of.
Many of the arguments put forward against mine have a
lot of weight and merit, so I'm now very precariously
balanced on the fence.

A vital factor to my mind is the historical one. Now,
opinion varies as to how much weight we ought to give
to historical precedent. My own feeling is that to
depart from ancient republican precedent is
undesirable except where the arguments in favour of
such are departure are very weighty - more weighty
than would be sufficient to sway us if there were no
precedent either way.

This is why I'm very interested in Cassius Calvus'
researches, for which many thanks. If it was indeed
the case, as his research suggests, that the opening
or closing of the doors was at the discretion of the
presiding magistrate, then that seems to me an
eminently reasonable and convenient solution to the
question. Quite how one would in practical terms make
an e-mail list open to the public at one minute and
closed at an other I don't know. But in any case it's
probably more useful for any publication there might
be of the contents of a Senate meeting to be issued
only after the meeting, not during it.

I suppose in general my suggestion echoes the
observation of Consul Germanicus that there is
considerable room for flexibility within the Tribune's
mandate to publicize the content of meetings. I would
hope that the Tribunician College taking office in
January will consult together to consider their
approach to this. I would further hope that they would
conclude in favour of publishing not just the votes
but a set of edited minutes of each meeting. As is
usual with minutes of important meetings, it would be
appropriate for the minutes to be shown to the
Senators before publication to give them the
opportunity to voice any objections they may have
(though of course the Tribunes should retain ultimate
discretion, otherwise the purpose of the exercise
would be somewhat thwarted).

Even if there is no change to current practice, I hope
the Tribunes will continue it after thought and
consideration, and not merely out of inertia; and I
hope that future Tribunes will think about the
question too.

Thanks for listening.

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senaor Sulla
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:11:12 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 2:33:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jmath669642reng@webtv.net writes:
Salvete

> On several occasions you have accused Nova Roma Citizens of "not liking"
> Senator Sulla as a reason for disagreeing with him and / or his
> offerings.

I cannot do this? I cannot express my opinion?

>
> I find that idea disagreeable to the degree being spoken down to, and I
> do not appreciate it. Particularly, when the accusation is directed at
> myself or another citizen who has taken particular trouble to explain
> his ideas and his views as opposed to those proposed by Senator Sulla.
>

The sad truth is, that certain people here has painted Sulla as the leader of
an Oligarch faction for so long, that the newbies were starting to accept it
as fact. Nothing is more farther from the truth, as far as I can tell, in my
contacts with Consul Sulla.
Octavius was doing fine until he got his into his rhetoric of "laws bad for
NR" speech. At that point it seemed pretty shrill and being directed at
Consul Sulla. So I expressed my opinion.

I think we have to face some hard truths here.
Voter Fraud is a real possibility.
Roman citizenship is being taken for granted. It was privilege not a right,
yet in our NR it is like the shiny bauble. It comes in a box of cracker
jacks, apparently.
No, not everybody here is active, and that's fine, but I'd rather gain 5
productive civvies
joining us then 25 inactive ones. We have a census coming. It will be
interesting to see how many citizens will respond. I think that will be a
good indicator of our State of the Republic.
Senator Equitius is correct, there are safeguards that could be placed, to
prevent mult-civvieships but this will cost money. And we can't have a
processing fee to off set these costs because that would be a turnoff to
prospective citizens. And we cannot punish multi-citizenship holders,
because it may not be their fault or they didn't know better. And we can't
punish the Censors for being idiots to allow this, because maybe they are
being taken in by the devious citizens.
So we are back where we started.
Once we get some leges in place, citizens cannot claim ignorance of the law,
if we require dues, it slows down citizens from getting multi-citizenships
for voting purposes. Nobody's rights have been violated, and those pay their
dues have their franchise strengthened.
Are they perfect? I don't know. But we need to express our distaste for the
practice,
and here we send a message.

BTW this is not first time multi-citizenships has been a topic in NR. They
were several violators in my Consulship. However they were never prosecuted
because they choose to
leave.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Seantor Sulla
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:13:01 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 3:42:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca writes:

> <<<<<<<<Sorry Senator Maximus, but you get a squirt from the infamous
> squirt gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahh, not the squirt gun, NOOOOO!
>

What in Hades are you talking about, Cornelia?

Fabius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:14:17 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 5:23:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> I thought the Senate doors had to remain open so the Tribunes could listen

Depends on the period of history.

Q. Fabius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Cato in print?
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:16:37 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 11:27:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vergil@starpower.net writes:

> I quite agree with your characterization of old Cato
>

He was a heck of general though. And that was his most important service to
the Republic
after "On Farming"

Fabius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:35:25 -0600

"Depends on the period of history"

A very laconic response. What period were they not allowed to listen? Probably during the later Empire, which I believe we are not trying to emulate. During Republican times up until Caesar the tribunes had the right to be present at the deliberations of the senate (Liv. iii.69, iv.1); but they did not sit among the senators themselves, but upon benches before the opened doors of the senate-house (Val. Max. ii.2 �7; F. Hofmann, Der R�m. Senat, p109, &c.). The inviolability of the tribunes, which had before only rested upon a contract between the two estates, was now sanctioned and confirmed by a law of M. Horatius (Liv. iii.55).

I can't imagine any issue before our illustrious Senate that must be conducted in secret, and any Senator or citizen that proposes it is up to no good.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors

In a message dated 12/14/02 5:23:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> I thought the Senate doors had to remain open so the Tribunes could listen

Depends on the period of history.

Q. Fabius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Seantor Sulla
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:36:10 -0600

Maybe she has some special talent

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Seantor Sulla

In a message dated 12/14/02 3:42:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca writes:

> <<<<<<<<Sorry Senator Maximus, but you get a squirt from the infamous
> squirt gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahh, not the squirt gun, NOOOOO!
>

What in Hades are you talking about, Cornelia?

Fabius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman bathhouse found in London
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:47:32 -0600

http://www.msnbc.com/news/847326.asp

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A Great Resource
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:55:35 -0600

http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/home.html

>From my alma mater, bien sur.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:30:29 EST

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

>I can't imagine any issue before our illustrious Senate that must be
conducted
>in secret, and any Senator or citizen that proposes it is up to no good.

Salvete,

I hate to be accused of being 'up to no good' but I guess I must... because I
must indeed say that there are often Senate items that must be conducted 'in
secret.'

Actually, 'in secret' is a misleading term, since the actions in the Senate
are duly reported by the Tribunes. What we're really discussing here is
confidentiality of some specific details. Usually this concerns the privacy
of individual Citizens.

Just as the Collegium Pontificum must frankly discuss the merits of Citizens
who apply for Priesthood, so too must the Senate often debate the merits of
sensitive situations. The Senate reviews the actions of existing provincial
Praetors, and at times must remove existing Praetors and appoint new ones.
The Senate also appoints 'suffectus' magistrates serving temporary terms.
Also, the Senate must review and approve or disapprove applications for
exemptions in the voting laws, such as for candidates who are technically
underage. In all such situations the Citizen record, and personal information
of various candidates must be discussed.

In addition, in times of trouble the Senate is the body which must debate
issues that are potential threats to the very existence of Nova Roma itself,
in case there should be a need for a "Senatus Consultum Ultimatum". In such
issues sensitive material may be brought up to be examined for
truthfulness... situations which might cause undue harm to individual
citizens should the details be immediately known to everyone in Nova Roma.

As a Founder, Senator, and as a Pontiff of Nova Roma, I will never willingly
vote for the Senate to be completely open. The desire of some Citizens to be
'completely in the know' at all times does not outweigh the needs of other
Citizens to have their personal information kept confidential. It also does
not outweigh the need for Nova Roma to have a body which may evaluate
sensitive situations in a confidential manner.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Multiple Citizenships & Voter Fraud
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:44:57 EST

Salvete,

I have not had opportunity to comment on the 'voter fraud' issue before this.
However, I must ask a basic question... exactly how do we know there IS voter
fraud?

>From what I've seen, junior Consul Sulla has stated that he has proof that
there are many people who have gained multiple Citizenships in attempt to
gain undue voting powers. This has been mentioned many times as a real and
immediate problem that must be dealt with right now, etc. etc.

Perhaps it is. But, on the other hand, as a Senator I have not seen one
specific piece of evidence that this situation actually exists, or how bad it
might be.

I confess I am reminded of the bluffs that Senator McCarthy used against
'communists' in the 50's here in the USA. Again and again he would stand up
in the Senate and say: "I hold here in my hand a list of known Communists in
such-and-such..." and this was his proof that there must be harsh laws
dealing with the crisis.

Finally, journalist Edward R. Murrow called Senator McCarthy's bluff. "Okay,
Senator, show us that list. Right now. If the list is real, show us, and let
us have a look."

It turned out the paper was blank, and McCarthy had never had any lists of
known Communists.

By this I am NOT accusing junior consul Sulla of being untruthful. What I AM
saying is that the exact details of who is known to have multiple
Citizenships should be shared with the Senate, as well as the background of
how this came to be known. In that way there is a much better chance of
crafting a law that is accurate to the situation at hand.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:43:07 -0600

"The Senate reviews the actions of existing provincial
Praetors, and at times must remove existing Praetors and appoint new ones."

If they're public officials, then their actions are in the public eye,any discussion of them must public in nature, I would imagine.

"The Senate also appoints 'suffectus' magistrates serving temporary terms."

Ok. So what?

"Also, the Senate must review and approve or disapprove applications for exemptions in the voting laws, such as for candidates who are technically underage. In all such situations the Citizen record, and personal information of various candidates must be discussed."

Again, those wishing to stand for public office must at some time be subjected to public scrutiny. Senate review and clearance of candidates in secret sounds Big Brother-esque.

"In addition, in times of trouble the Senate is the body which must debate issues that are potential threats to the very existence of Nova Roma itself,in case there should be a need for a "Senatus Consultum Ultimatum". In such issues sensitive material may be brought up to be examined for truthfulness... situations which might cause undue harm to individual citizens should the details be immediately known to everyone in Nova Roma."

What is a "time of trouble" for on on-line micronation? Sounds like political mumbo jumbo made up by the boys in the back room filled with cigar smoke. I want to know it ALL, brother citizen. If you must discuss things in secret, dress up like a woman and meet with your buddies at the next festival of the Bona Dea. Otherwise, I think we lowely citizens can handle the truth with as much equnamity and sagacity as our beloved Senators.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Throwing Bombs

The LaSalle Law Office
417 East 13th Street, Suite 500
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 10:30 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

>I can't imagine any issue before our illustrious Senate that must be
conducted
>in secret, and any Senator or citizen that proposes it is up to no good.

Salvete,

I hate to be accused of being 'up to no good' but I guess I must... because I
must indeed say that there are often Senate items that must be conducted 'in
secret.'

Actually, 'in secret' is a misleading term, since the actions in the Senate
are duly reported by the Tribunes. What we're really discussing here is
confidentiality of some specific details. Usually this concerns the privacy
of individual Citizens.

Just as the Collegium Pontificum must frankly discuss the merits of Citizens
who apply for Priesthood, so too must the Senate often debate the merits of
sensitive situations. The Senate reviews the actions of existing provincial
Praetors, and at times must remove existing Praetors and appoint new ones.
The Senate also appoints 'suffectus' magistrates serving temporary terms.
Also, the Senate must review and approve or disapprove applications for
exemptions in the voting laws, such as for candidates who are technically
underage. In all such situations the Citizen record, and personal information
of various candidates must be discussed.

In addition, in times of trouble the Senate is the body which must debate
issues that are potential threats to the very existence of Nova Roma itself,
in case there should be a need for a "Senatus Consultum Ultimatum". In such
issues sensitive material may be brought up to be examined for
truthfulness... situations which might cause undue harm to individual
citizens should the details be immediately known to everyone in Nova Roma.

As a Founder, Senator, and as a Pontiff of Nova Roma, I will never willingly
vote for the Senate to be completely open. The desire of some Citizens to be
'completely in the know' at all times does not outweigh the needs of other
Citizens to have their personal information kept confidential. It also does
not outweigh the need for Nova Roma to have a body which may evaluate
sensitive situations in a confidential manner.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Endorsement - Decius Iunius Palladius for Praetor
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:57:09 EST

Salvete Omnes,

The Cista is once again open for your vote - to decide magistracies which
were not concluded in the last Comitiae vote.

One of these important positions is for the Praetorship. Once again, I
endorse and recommend Decius Iunius Palladius for Praetor.

It has already been stated that Decius Iunius is a long-term Citizen who was
involved in the founding of Nova Roma. His skills and qualifications from the
positions he has previously held have also been mentioned. I will not go
through them again.

What I will say is that the position of Praetor is not an easy job. It's a
demanding position that can be a strain on anyone - we've had fine Citizens
elected to this post before only to end up resigning.

Decius Iunius Palladius is more than an experienced and skilled candidate. He
is an individual that has proven that he will stay the course when the
Praetorship gets demanding... he will not quit when Nova Roma needs him. He
has already weathered more storms than the Praetorship can possibly provide.
That record is as important as his many qualifications.

Citizens, I am casting my vote for Decius Iunius as Praetor. I hope you will
as well.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate doors
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 06:32:04 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 7:42:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> I can't imagine any issue before our illustrious Senate that must be
> conducted in secret, and any Senator or citizen that proposes it is up to
> no good.
>
>

Wow! Guess we are up to now good, then. During the Punic wars Livius tells
us the Tribunes sat outside the opened door, Appianus tells us that by
Sulla's time the Tribunes were just inside the doors. So by inference you
would assume that by Sulla's period since the Tribune was inside, so the door
could be open or shut. During the middle Republic, the Tribune was outside
on the patio, so the doors had to remain open.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Multiple Citizenships & Voter Fraud
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 06:44:35 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 8:43:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cassius622@aol.com writes:

> By this I am NOT accusing junior consul Sulla of being untruthful. What I AM
>
> saying is that the exact details of who is known to have multiple
> Citizenships should be shared with the Senate, as well as the background of
>
> how this came to be known. In that way there is a much better chance of
>

Hmm, I remember a Gens Lex you crafted, Marcus Cassius, because abusive
Paterfamilias were holding Gens members hostage against their will. Yet when
Senators and the Praetor asked for examples you quoted only one from three
years before. I know only one case of documented multiple citizenships and
that too is from three years ago.
So what does that tell us? We don't need either lex? Or the opportunity for
abuse is there?
The Censors agreed that the opportunity was there and drafted an Edictum to
handle it.
The Consuls agreed that opportunity for voting fraud is probable, and crafted
a lex to combat it.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 03:50:48 -0800 (PST)

--- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
wrote:
SNIP
>
> What is a "time of trouble" for on on-line
> micronation? Sounds like political mumbo jumbo made
> up by the boys in the back room filled with cigar
> smoke. I want to know it ALL, brother citizen. If
> you must discuss things in secret, dress up like a
> woman and meet with your buddies at the next
> festival of the Bona Dea. Otherwise, I think we
> lowely citizens can handle the truth with as much
> equnamity and sagacity as our beloved Senators.
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
> Throwing Bombs

Gaius Basilicatus, there is one thing that will
prevent you from knowing it "ALL", and that is human
nature. The Senators will want to see what thier peers
think about some questions before comitting themselves
publicly in an open Senate House. This will lead to
two or three "private" lists where "friends" discuss
things over. Such is human nature.

A Fully open Senate house will do little more than
create "smoke filled back rooms" where the real work
is done before the Senators parade into the open Curia
to make pretty speeches about matters that are already
decided for the civies entertainment.

I Would be willing to open the doors for some meetings
of the Senate, leaving it up to the Consul with the
fasces on if the doors will be open or closed. I Have
no illusions about the nature of any open meetings
however. They will be little more than a drama where
Senators can present nifty speeches to the civies
before voting on non-contraversial business that is
before the Senate.

That is human nature, and the Senators are human.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 06:53:26 EST

In a message dated 12/14/02 8:50:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> Otherwise, I think we lowely citizens can handle the truth with as much
> equnamity and sagacity as our beloved Senators.
>

LOL! You are a funny guy. Become a Provincial Praetor, carry out your job
well and you'll get your red boots and your stripped toga and you can join
the Senate. Till then let the Tribunes do the job they were assigned to do.
The Roman Senate never allowed the average citizen to eavesdrop on their
proceedings. If people were at the door listening, which by the way, we have
no proof that this happened, they would be the idle rich. The average
workman could not take the time off from their job to do so.

Q Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Senator Sulla
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:59:45 +0100

Salve Q Fabius Maximus,

> The sad truth is, that certain people here has painted Sulla as the
leader of
> an Oligarch faction for so long, that the newbies were starting to accept
it
> as fact.
The 'newbies' wouldn't know anything about Oligarchs if citizens who were
present at that time didn't keep bringing up the subject.... New citizens
enter our nation 'fresh' and
unbiased. Let them become 'biased' later on, based on what they read/see
here in the Forum over time. Or am I being un-Roman like??

>I cannot do this? I cannot express my opinion?
I enjoy hearing your opinions very much. Your posts are always full of
passion, well-written, and interesting to read

<Pompeia, that was me blatantly 'sucking up' again. It is often said that
'Flattery will get you nowhere' but I
keep trying just the same :-) >

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Multiple Citizenships & Voter Fraud
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:02:27 +0100

qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> Hmm, I remember a Gens Lex you crafted, Marcus Cassius,
> because abusive Paterfamilias were holding Gens members
> hostage against their will. Yet when Senators and the
> Praetor asked for examples you quoted only one from three
> years before. I know only one case of documented multiple
> citizenships and that too is from three years ago.
> So what does that tell us?

Salve, Quinte Fabi Maxime.

It tells us that you want documented cases of known abuse when the
proposed laws aren't to your liking, and don't "feel" that the same
criteria are necessary when the you approve of the proposals.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Multiple Citizenships & Voter Fraud
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 07:15:38 EST

In a message dated 12/15/02 4:03:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
from@darkeye.net writes:

> It tells us that you want documented cases of known abuse when the
> proposed laws aren't to your liking, and don't "feel" that the same
> criteria are necessary when the you approve of the proposals.
>
>

Ah but the way I saw it, if enough of a pretext exists for the one, there is
enough pretext for the other. I guess we are on opposite sides of the wall
on this one, Pius.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Seantor Sulla
From:	"pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:32:53 -0000

---Salve Q. Fabi:

What in hades am I talking about? Hmm....

All I can suggest, is that you go back and read 'the whole post' of
mine, slowly and carefully (not just the part that tweaks you ) and
if you continue to have further difficulties, you may contact me and
I will try to make my position more succinct.

Vale,
Pompeia

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/14/02 3:42:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> metamorphosis2003@y... writes:
>
>
> > <<<<<<<<Sorry Senator Maximus, but you get a squirt from the
infamous
> > squirt gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahh, not the squirt gun,
NOOOOO!
> >
>
> What in Hades are you talking about, Cornelia?
>
> Fabius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Seantor Sulla
From:	"pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:49:29 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
> Maybe she has some special talent

Salve Gai Basilicatus:\\

Hmm.....a rather 'slip and fall' response to a bit of levity, and
otherwise a 'circles and sticks' post, no?

Alas, I am not being billed for your opinion, counsillor :)

Pompeia
(looking for misspellings as she is getting used to a new keyboard
from a BRAND NEW COMPUTER.....YAHHH!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
> 417 East 13th Street
> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> (816).471.2111
> (816).510.0072(cell)
> (816).471.8412(Fax)
> The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney
privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of
the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to
deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in
error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact
information in the "reply to" field above and return the original
message to the sender. Thank you.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: qfabiusmaxmi@a...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Seantor Sulla
>
>
> In a message dated 12/14/02 3:42:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> metamorphosis2003@y... writes:
>
>
> > <<<<<<<<Sorry Senator Maximus, but you get a squirt from the
infamous
> > squirt gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahh, not the squirt gun,
NOOOOO!
> >
>
> What in Hades are you talking about, Cornelia?
>
> Fabius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Senator Sulla
From:	"pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>" <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:00:32 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:
> Salve Q Fabius Maximus,
>
> >
>
> <Pompeia, that was me blatantly 'sucking up' again. It is often
said that
> 'Flattery will get you nowhere' but I
> keep trying just the same :-) >

Oh, Good Mother Cornelia!

Some Pompeia said to 'suck up'? Oh, it must of been 'another
Pompeia' Hmmm...

Diana, I do believe that someone is impersonating me :)!!!!

Can Nova Roma handle two Pompeias????

Not two Pompeias.......no NOOOOOOOOO!!!! :)

Tribuna, I do believe we have a problem!!! "Dangerous and
Disruptive' comes to mind!

What will we do?

Po

>
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia Aventina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Back in Rome
From:	MLCRASSVS@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:06:35 EST

MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS DIANAE MORAVIAE AVENTINAE S.P.D.

SALVA SIS,

Diana, may I thank you most sincerely for your kind words and your prayers -
they mean alot to me particularly at such a difficult time. When a person
has so much hurt, uncertainty and self-doubt a few kind words can really make
a difference.

May I lay my GLADIVS at your service should you need to call upon a friend.
Who knows with the passage of time perhaps VENVS will indeed intervene and
send me that special someone who can raise my heart, share my life and
inspire me to great things. Whatever happens I intend to stand tall,
overcome adversity and remain a strong and honourable man.

Perhaps modern society has again reached that cynical point where as SENECA
observed "EXEVNT MATRIMOMII CAVSA, NVBVNT REPUDII" I hope not. I am myself
an optimist and will follow your wise counsel, viewing this episode in my
life as the dawn of a new beginning, full of new possibilities - an exciting
new chapter yet to be written!

Diana, I too shall remember you in my prayers to the gods, may great IVPPITER
watch over you. With SPES help, I hope to talk to you again in happier times
when we can share lighter topics.

Once again the INSVLAE of the Urbs fall quiet whilst the VICI liven to the
incessant night traffic of carts and wagons, it time for me to go.

GRATIAS MAXIMAS TIBI AGO ET BONAM NOCTEM TIBI EXOPTO.

SATURNALIA OPTIMA TIBI EXOPTO.

VALE

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
PATERFAMILIAS
CIVIS NOVAE ROMAE

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

"MORIBVS ANTIQVIS RES STAT ROMANA VIRISQVE"

VERITAS LVX MEA

---------------------
AFRICA SEPTENTRIONALIS
http://www.geocities.com/africa_septentrionalis/index.html

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Romanitas (was the whole laws discussion)
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:34:10 +0100

Salvete Quirites Romani,

(this is a long, tedious mail :o))

In a lot of political debates here, the ultimate argument seems to be: it is (not) Roman (enough)!

I think this is a rather bizarre argument. What exactly is "Roman"? Sure, one has vague impressions of marble temples, people in togas or legions on the march, but when it comes down to the finer aspects of life in general and civilisation in particular, what is really "Roman" either appears to be just another interpretation of history, a wish or just a characteristic that is simply human. What is "Chinese"? What is "European"? Can something be "American"? It's tough enough to comment on these questions that deal with modern societies already, let alone societies that died over a millennium ago.

First things first. I think the site of Nova Roma states that the primarily goal of Nova Roma is the cultural and religious resurrection of the Roman Republic. The statement "to recreate the best of..." is open to many, many interpretations. Some people here seem hell-bent on making this a political recreation only. I think if we want that, we're left with an empty bubble. Of course, we can't do without politics and contrary to what many think I think politics are interesting!

But let's see. I might very well be wrong, but has an actual *Roman* law here ever been recreated? Some attempts have been made to codify the spirit of the ancients - but a "spirit" is an interpretation once again. I think it would be much better to actually go and look up ancient laws and try to bring back those which are applicable to modern life. How about Roman marriages? Or legal procedures?

Consul Sulla scripsit:
<< I must state that this is an absolute first, I have been told by Quaestor T. Octavius Pius that my laws are not Roman enough. Lets analyze this for a moment. The Romans in the Mid to late Republic guarded their citizenship. They did not give it away and when they did they controlled who they gave it to and limited the extent of their voting power when they did give it away. The Lex Vedia Assuidi was passed in this exact same vein. >>

MOS: I contend that we are a different society. We are not a Roman Republic going to war, conquering territories and subjugating other peoples. Rome's citizenship policy was there to give natives of conquered regions something to strive for, something to aim at, because it held many advantages. I personally see no advantage in deepening the divison between first and second class citizens. It's simply absurd to recreate this for a virtual community (with live meetings, mind you!). Now, I am not saying, before anyone interprets me wrong, that I am against mebership fees. But I'm not inclined to punish those who *don't*, when you might just as well - in true Roman spirit, methinks - reward those who *do* (not by extra CP, or we'll have a plutocracy soon). In Rome, it was customary to do things "for honour" as it was in ancient Greece too, by the way. Anyway, my point is that you can't compare citizenship in the Roman Republic to citizenship in Nova Roma. It is, by the way, Lex Vedia de Assiduis :o).

Consul Sulla scripsit:
<< Do you think that the ancients would have given full voting rights to these new citizens? If you say yes, show me the proof. I seem to recall the Socii War where long standing Italian allies decided it was worth the risk to go to war to OBTAIN that citizenship. Because Rome would not give her citizenship to them. >>

MOS: What are you saying? That non-taxpayers should go to war and hack the server to obtain more voting rights, or that we should be grateful that you didn't do as the ancients did? I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Consul Sulla scripsit:

<<I believe that these laws are Roman to the core. I believe that the ancients would have supported these measurse because it goes to the very nature of citizenship. The Romans believed their citizenship was the most highest honor a person can strive to attain. >>

MOS: Some did. Some didn't. "The Romans" never existed. We only know what the aristocracy thought, by the way. I, and I think many eminent Romans (Horatius, Lucretius, Seneca...) would have also agreed with me just the same, think that there are higher, more ethical honours in life than citizenship which simply has to do with power. And I refuse to glorify power (I'm not saying you are glorifying it, by the way).

Valete bene cives Romani!
Marcus Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senaor Sulla
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:46:39 +0100

Salve Quinte Fabi,

A few quick replies, if I may.

scripsisti:
<< The sad truth is, that certain people here has painted Sulla as the leader of
an Oligarch faction for so long, that the newbies were starting to accept it
as fact. Nothing is more farther from the truth, as far as I can tell, in my
contacts with Consul Sulla. >>

MOS: But then again, you have been accused of being leader of that "Oligarch" faction just as well. Two accused defending one another doesn't seem very plausible, even if it is the truth they are saying.

<< Octavius was doing fine until he got his into his rhetoric of "laws bad for
NR" speech. At that point it seemed pretty shrill and being directed at
Consul Sulla. So I expressed my opinion. >>

MOS: And why would Octavius do that?

<< I think we have to face some hard truths here. Voter Fraud is a real possibility. Roman citizenship is being taken for granted. It was privilege not a right, yet in our NR it is like the shiny bauble. It comes in a box of cracker jacks, apparently. >>

MOS: As I have noticed before: we live in a modern world with different cultural and political customs and habits. Citizenship *is* taken for granted, but honestly, should be really thank someone for it? Really, if prospective members were to find out that you have to go through years of slavery, near-slavery or being a fourth-class citizen I don't think many would happily volunteer to become members of Nova Roma. I contend that we have advanced beyond notions of being grateful for something everyone *should* have in the first place.

<< Senator Equitius is correct, there are safeguards that could be placed, to prevent mult-civvieships but this will cost money. And we can't have a processing fee to off set these costs because that would be a turnoff to prospective citizens. And we cannot punish multi-citizenship holders, because it may not be their fault or they didn't know better. And we can't punish the Censors for being idiots to allow this, because maybe they are being taken in by the devious citizens.So we are back where we started.

Once we get some leges in place, citizens cannot claim ignorance of the law, if we require dues, it slows down citizens from getting multi-citizenships for voting purposes. Nobody's rights have been violated, and those pay their dues have their franchise strengthened. Are they perfect? I don't know. But we need to express our distaste for the practice, and here we send a message. >>

MOS: There are other ways to get a message across, and fraud can be detected, as Consul Octavius noted. By the way, "citizen" in Latin is "civis", plural "cives".

<< BTW this is not first time multi-citizenships has been a topic in NR. They
were several violators in my Consulship. However they were never prosecuted
because they choose to leave. >>

MOS: This is interesting. Proof at last, I hope! Who were these people? Can anything be found in the archives? Forgive me for being rather sceptical, but I have been here since halfway your consulship and I can't remember such an affair, and the older members never spoke of it until now.

Optime vale!
Marcus Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Multiple Citizenships & Voter Fraud
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 08:35:29 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Quinte Fabi,

> Hmm, I remember a Gens Lex you crafted, Marcus Cassius, because abusive
> Paterfamilias were holding Gens members hostage against their will.

I wrote the proposed lex allowing easy exit from a gens, because the
situation you describe had happened at least once, years before, and could
potentially happen again.

Senator Cassius's proposal for deep reform came about because the opponents of
my original proposal claimed that it was "unhistorical" - so he worked to
create a historical solution, but the same people opposed that.

> The Consuls agreed that opportunity for voting fraud is probable, and crafted
> a lex to combat it.

Actually, the three leges we'll soon be voting on are my colleague's work, not
mine; my name appears on one only because I suggested better wording.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Consul of Nova Roma
Censor-Elect 2756

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:07:25 EST

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

>What is a "time of trouble" for on on-line micronation? Sounds like
political
>mumbo jumbo made up by the boys in the back room filled with cigar smoke.

Cassius:
We've actually had several 'times of trouble' - including a situation where a
Citizen was trying to hijack the NR website and the registry of the domain
name 'www.novaroma.org', a situation where a Citizen was accused of trying to
hack into the election process and change dozens of votes, a situation where
it was thought a 'faction' of Citizens was manipulating the elections, etc.

In all these situations it was at first not known whether the accusations
were true, or if false charges were being brought. The way to examine such
things is *not* to broadcast unverified information to all the Citizens at
once, where a person's reputation might be unduly damaged just by suspicion.

>I want to know it ALL, brother citizen.

Cassius:
If you want to know it ALL, brother Citizen, you have two choices. You can
start taking on public duties and offices, and work to become a Senator. Or,
you can go join a Greek organization which practices 'true democracy', where
*all* decisions are made by simple majority vote, instead of the Roman
Republican system.

>If you must discuss things in secret,
dress up like a woman and meet with your buddies at the next festival of the
Bona Dea.

Cassius:
Is this comment your idea of proving that you are reasonable and tolerant
enough to be a part of all decisions made in Nova Roma? If so, you're not
doing your argument any favors.

>Otherwise, I think we lowely citizens can handle the truth with as
much equnamity and sagacity as our beloved Senators.

Cassius:
All the equanamity and sagacity that you have been displaying here then? I'm
sure all of Nova Roma is pining away to hear angry, suspicious and sarcastic
comments from you over every single issue, both large and small.

There is a reason why so many people unsubscribe from and avoid the main
list. The more people debaing and arguing over issues, the more infighting
happens, and the less gets accomplished. Many Citizens despize the main list
because of its politics and continual argument. There is no practical reason
whatever to demand that the Senate be turned into the same kind of forum.
Even the most routine business would take weeks instead of days, while
everyone took pot-shots at each other. The Senate exists to conduct business
for Nova Roma, not to be a forum of entertainment for the Citizens.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Multiple Citizenships and Voter Fraud
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:17:32 EST

Q. Fabius writes;

Hmm, I remember a Gens Lex you crafted, Marcus Cassius, because abusive
Paterfamilias were holding Gens members hostage against their will. Yet when
Senators and the Praetor asked for examples you quoted only one from three
years before.

Cassius:
I am afraid you are not presenting the issue accurately, Q. Fabius. I
mentioned that there had been something like six examples known to me, but
since I had not recorded the details, I could not present them officially.

And, my point was that since such things had happened in the past, they
*could* happen in the future. I was as clear as possible that I did not know
of any current situations with Gens problems... but that the proposed lex was
to make sure that similar situations would not happen in the future.

> know only one case of documented multiple citizenships and
that too is from three years ago. So what does that tell us? We don't need
either lex? Or the opportunity for abuse is there?The Censors agreed that the
opportunity was there and drafted an Edictum to handle it. The Consuls agreed
that opportunity for voting fraud is probable, and crafted a lex to combat
it.

Cassius:
Did I actually say that I had a problem with the proposed lex, Q. Fabius, and
that I would not vote for it? I said nothing of the sort. My issue was rather
that junior consul Sulla has repeatedly said he has *current* proof of people
holding multiple Citizenships, but has presented no such information to
either the Senate or the People. If we know of people holding multiple
Citizenships, those specific cases should be dealt with, and the multiple
Citizenships deleted by the Censors.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:30:59 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
> What is a "time of trouble" for on on-line micronation? Sounds like
>political mumbo jumbo made up by the boys in the back room filled
>with cigar smoke. I want to know it ALL, brother citizen.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola, your tag line in messages indicates you
are either a lawyer or at least work for a law firm in Missouri.
Would you care to tell us what is a Grand Jury? And if, so can you
tell us why the proceedings of a Grand Jury are secret? Would you
advocate an "open door policy" on the proceedings of a Grand Jury?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Confused::
From:	"T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@yahoo.com>" <titan_242002@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:44:40 -0000

Salvete!Everyone. Would someone expalin to me the voting rights of
Nova Roma and who votes and what for?I am still new here and haven't
learned everything about NR and the politics of it or ancient Roma.
Thanks T.Cornelivs Romanvs.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:13:26 -0600

Certainly. I was a prosecutor in Jackson County, Kansas City Missouri for five years. A grand jury is the prosecutor's private jury with which they use to find probable cause that a felony has been committed. Probable cause can be found two ways: Through a preliminary hearing and through grand jury proceedings. One is done in open court, one is done in secret. Preliminary hearings allow the defense to cross examine the states witnesses and argue that the state has no case. Grand juries allow the State to push through huge volumes of cases that would otherwise cause a great burden on them, like drug cases or DUIs, due to the coordination of all the witnesses they would have to call in for preliminary hearings. Also, all the world would get to see what kind of crap they are charging people with. The grand jury is hand selected by the prosecutor, with no outside interference from anyone. We used to joke that a grand jury would indicte a ham sandwhich if you wanted them to. Needless to say, grand juries are unpopular with defense attorneys and their clients. However, its funny how the grand jury doesn't find probable cause in cases like say, oh, where the police are accused of shooting some hapless citizen. The Grand jury is a joke and has no place in modern society. The reasons I've stated are the real reasons for the existence of grand juries, and any arguments to the contrary, like protecting people's privacy, are pretextual, much like the reasons given for our Senate being able to meet in secret.

So, yes, I advocate an open door policy on grand jury proceedings.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:30 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
> What is a "time of trouble" for on on-line micronation? Sounds like
>political mumbo jumbo made up by the boys in the back room filled
>with cigar smoke. I want to know it ALL, brother citizen.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola, your tag line in messages indicates you
are either a lawyer or at least work for a law firm in Missouri.
Would you care to tell us what is a Grand Jury? And if, so can you
tell us why the proceedings of a Grand Jury are secret? Would you
advocate an "open door policy" on the proceedings of a Grand Jury?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:17:27 -0600

"The Roman Senate never allowed the average citizen to eavesdrop on their proceedings. If people were at the door listening, which by the way, we have no proof that this happened, they would be the idle rich."

Wrong. The tribunes would listen, then pass along what was happening to those citizens who wanted to hear outside.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)

In a message dated 12/14/02 8:50:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> Otherwise, I think we lowely citizens can handle the truth with as much
> equnamity and sagacity as our beloved Senators.
>

LOL! You are a funny guy. Become a Provincial Praetor, carry out your job
well and you'll get your red boots and your stripped toga and you can join
the Senate. Till then let the Tribunes do the job they were assigned to do.
The Roman Senate never allowed the average citizen to eavesdrop on their
proceedings. If people were at the door listening, which by the way, we have
no proof that this happened, they would be the idle rich. The average
workman could not take the time off from their job to do so.

Q Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Confused::
From:	"aerdensrw <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:24:42 -0000

Salve, T. Corneli Romane--

Generally, all adult citizens may vote in elections.
However, only plebeians may bote in the Comitia Plebis
Tributa. You are a member of a patrician gens, so you
are not able to vote in that comitia--or, if you do
vote in a Comitia Plebis Tributa election, the
rogatores will disregard your vote--in that one
comitia, only. You will still be able to vote in the
Comitia Centuriata and in the Comitia Populi Tributa.

In these comitiae, you will be able to vote for both
magistrates and for laws.

Legislation has been written on the subject, but I
can't name the laws for you off the top of my head.
If you go to the NR website and click on the 'Leges'
link, you should be able to find what you need to know.

Vale,

Renata Corva
Rogatrix-elect

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "T.Cornelivs <titan_242002@y...>"
<titan_242002@y...> wrote:
> Salvete!Everyone. Would someone expalin to me the voting rights of
> Nova Roma and who votes and what for?I am still new here and
haven't
> learned everything about NR and the politics of it or ancient Roma.
> Thanks T.Cornelivs Romanvs.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:19:20 -0600

Thats fine. They should get the real work done before they come to the Senate to "debate". Thus, we could listen in and hear the pretty speeches.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)

--- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
wrote:
SNIP
>
> What is a "time of trouble" for on on-line
> micronation? Sounds like political mumbo jumbo made
> up by the boys in the back room filled with cigar
> smoke. I want to know it ALL, brother citizen. If
> you must discuss things in secret, dress up like a
> woman and meet with your buddies at the next
> festival of the Bona Dea. Otherwise, I think we
> lowely citizens can handle the truth with as much
> equnamity and sagacity as our beloved Senators.
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
> Throwing Bombs

Gaius Basilicatus, there is one thing that will
prevent you from knowing it "ALL", and that is human
nature. The Senators will want to see what thier peers
think about some questions before comitting themselves
publicly in an open Senate House. This will lead to
two or three "private" lists where "friends" discuss
things over. Such is human nature.

A Fully open Senate house will do little more than
create "smoke filled back rooms" where the real work
is done before the Senators parade into the open Curia
to make pretty speeches about matters that are already
decided for the civies entertainment.

I Would be willing to open the doors for some meetings
of the Senate, leaving it up to the Consul with the
fasces on if the doors will be open or closed. I Have
no illusions about the nature of any open meetings
however. They will be little more than a drama where
Senators can present nifty speeches to the civies
before voting on non-contraversial business that is
before the Senate.

That is human nature, and the Senators are human.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Seantor Sulla
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:23:17 -0600

$175.00/hour. Criminal cases are taken for a flat fee, up front, of course.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: pompeia_cornelia <scriba_forum@hotmail.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:49 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Seantor Sulla

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
> Maybe she has some special talent

Salve Gai Basilicatus:\\

Hmm.....a rather 'slip and fall' response to a bit of levity, and
otherwise a 'circles and sticks' post, no?

Alas, I am not being billed for your opinion, counsillor :)

Pompeia
(looking for misspellings as she is getting used to a new keyboard
from a BRAND NEW COMPUTER.....YAHHH!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
> 417 East 13th Street
> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> (816).471.2111
> (816).510.0072(cell)
> (816).471.8412(Fax)
> The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney
privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of
the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not
the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to
deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in
error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact
information in the "reply to" field above and return the original
message to the sender. Thank you.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: qfabiusmaxmi@a...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Seantor Sulla
>
>
> In a message dated 12/14/02 3:42:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> metamorphosis2003@y... writes:
>
>
> > <<<<<<<<Sorry Senator Maximus, but you get a squirt from the
infamous
> > squirt gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ahh, not the squirt gun,
NOOOOO!
> >
>
> What in Hades are you talking about, Cornelia?
>
> Fabius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:31:24 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
>Needless to say, grand juries are unpopular with defense attorneys
>and their clients.

Thank you for your response. Isn't the above a bit like saying that
the police are unpopular with criminals?

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:40:36 -0600

Taken out of the context of the my post, I guess you're right.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 10:31 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
>Needless to say, grand juries are unpopular with defense attorneys
>and their clients.

Thank you for your response. Isn't the above a bit like saying that
the police are unpopular with criminals?

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:04:47 -0600

Senator:

Methinks thou doth protest too much! Go and join a greek organization? angry, suspicious and sarcastic comments? not to be a forum of entertainment for the Citizens?

I think you misread your history, Senator. I didn't know republican government was defined by secret meetings of the senate, secret pre-aproval of candidates, and a represenative body so suspicious of its own citizens and lacking confidence in its judicial system that it could not put every issue it debates before its citizenry. I stand re-edified and re-informed.

Senator, you appear to be doing a great job. However, the vitriol with which you lash out at those who dissent does you a great diservice, and our nation. You certainly must feel above suspicion and above reproach considering the arrogance of your comments. Imagine, if you will, a modern politician replying in a newspaper to a dissenting constituent the way you have to me. He wouldn't be buying any green bannanas in Washington, and no error.

You're supposed to be better than me, Senator. That said, I apologize for any sarcastic, angry, or suspicious comments I may have said. As a criminal defense attorney, I am suspicious of all secret machinations of my government.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:07 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

>What is a "time of trouble" for on on-line micronation? Sounds like
political
>mumbo jumbo made up by the boys in the back room filled with cigar smoke.

Cassius:
We've actually had several 'times of trouble' - including a situation where a
Citizen was trying to hijack the NR website and the registry of the domain
name 'www.novaroma.org', a situation where a Citizen was accused of trying to
hack into the election process and change dozens of votes, a situation where
it was thought a 'faction' of Citizens was manipulating the elections, etc.

In all these situations it was at first not known whether the accusations
were true, or if false charges were being brought. The way to examine such
things is *not* to broadcast unverified information to all the Citizens at
once, where a person's reputation might be unduly damaged just by suspicion.

>I want to know it ALL, brother citizen.

Cassius:
If you want to know it ALL, brother Citizen, you have two choices. You can
start taking on public duties and offices, and work to become a Senator. Or,
you can go join a Greek organization which practices 'true democracy', where
*all* decisions are made by simple majority vote, instead of the Roman
Republican system.

>If you must discuss things in secret,
dress up like a woman and meet with your buddies at the next festival of the
Bona Dea.

Cassius:
Is this comment your idea of proving that you are reasonable and tolerant
enough to be a part of all decisions made in Nova Roma? If so, you're not
doing your argument any favors.

>Otherwise, I think we lowely citizens can handle the truth with as
much equnamity and sagacity as our beloved Senators.

Cassius:
All the equanamity and sagacity that you have been displaying here then? I'm
sure all of Nova Roma is pining away to hear angry, suspicious and sarcastic
comments from you over every single issue, both large and small.

There is a reason why so many people unsubscribe from and avoid the main
list. The more people debaing and arguing over issues, the more infighting
happens, and the less gets accomplished. Many Citizens despize the main list
because of its politics and continual argument. There is no practical reason
whatever to demand that the Senate be turned into the same kind of forum.
Even the most routine business would take weeks instead of days, while
everyone took pot-shots at each other. The Senate exists to conduct business
for Nova Roma, not to be a forum of entertainment for the Citizens.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Cato in print?
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:19:04 +0000 (GMT)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Censor L. Equitius Cincinnatus
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

The Censor wrote:
> And I disagree, it seems that some of you have
> opinions, yet Ironic to me is that while you have an
> opinion about the man you admit to not even knowing
> what he wrote!

I'm very sorry to see that I've roused your
irritation. It's true that I wasn't aware that Cato's
'On Agriculture' was fully extant. I think it's
perhaps slightly unfair to construe from this that I
don't know what he wrote: I'm aware that he wrote this
work, a history entitled 'Origins', and I think some
shorter works with which I'm unfamiliar. I have read
some bits of the 'On Agriculture', though I've never
been moved to seek out more than a little, as I'm not
very interested in agriculture. I have also read what
others said about the 'Origins', for instance that
Cato declined to refer in it to Roman generals by
name, probably in line with his very legitimate view
that the republic in his time was becoming too
concerned with the reputations of individuals.

I also wonder whether it's entirely fair to imply (at
least this seems to me the implication of your
comment) that one cannot hold a very well-founded
opinion of a historical person without being aware
that one of his books has survived in full. Much more
written material survived about him than by him,
including many of his own sayings quoted by other
writers, and this seems to me a sufficient basis on
which to offer at least a general opinion of his
character.

The Censor also wrote:
> Perhaps one should investigate for oneself before
> parroting common dogma. For me, the man had a wealth
> of knowledge which we wished to share. Some of his
> writing may seem cold hearted to us today but he
> lived in a different culture which valued things
> that we should consider worthy of remembering today,
> which is one of the reasons that Nova Roma exists I
> would dare say.

I quite agree with these sentiments. I stated that I
agreed with F. Galerius Aurelianus' statement that
Cato was grumpy, opinionated, xenophobic, and I forget
the rest. I do think that these were characteristics
of his. This does not prevent me from thinking that he
was also very intelligent, well-read, principled and
incorruptible, nor that the simplicity and austerity
of lifestyle that he admired in his predecessors, such
as your own namesake, and which he himself cultivated,
are indeed admirable. A man can be both profoundly
admirable and not very likable - Socrates, I tend to
feel, was another such person.

Again, I'm sorry to have upset the Censor, and I hope
that his anger is somewhat ameliorated by my further
comments. I'm also very grateful for the information
on the 'On Argiculture', to which I shall certainly
turn when I want to know anything about Roman farming
or estate-management.

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Romanitas (was the whole laws discussion)
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:41:43 +0100

Salve Marcus Octavius Solaris,

>this is a long, tedious mail :o))
This is quite a short email, but in the same spirit of tediousnous & just to
nit pick :

>What is "Chinese"? What is "European"? Can something be "American"?

Aren't you the guy who referred to me as being 'a typical American' after
the NR Rally in August? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Vale,
Diana Moravia

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] was Senator Sulla but now I don't know what the subject should be....
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:48:35 +0100

Salve Pompeia,

Huh? I was the person 'sucking up' and not you dear lady. It is my modus
operandi so to speak......

Diana said: Pompeia, that was me blatantly 'sucking up' again. It is often
said that 'Flattery will get you nowhere' but I keep trying just the same
:-)

Pompeia replied: Diana, I do believe that someone is impersonating me :)!!!!
Can Nova Roma handle two Pompeias???? Not two Pompeias.......no
NOOOOOOOOO!!!! :)

Diana now says:

Maybe I should have wrote: "Hey Pompeia, look! Here I am (Diana) and I
(Diana) am blatantly sucking up again: this time to Maximus, just like I
(Diana) was sucking up yesterday to Pius, trying to throw in a bit of
flattery in my email so that no one responds to me too nastily because I am
sensitive and cry easily and don't like to cry because then my nose turns
red."

So no one is impersonating you, just me (Diana) impersonating me (Diana
again), and hoping that the impersonated Diana comes across more clever than
the original Diana :-)

And to make it clear :
1) Diana flatters everyone, every chance she gets. This is why she is very
popular at office parties, especially if the party attendees are male.
2)We have one Pompeia in NR and not two.
3)No one was impersonating Pompeia. Diana must have just written something
weird and it was misunderstood by the one and only, original and never, ever
impersonated Pompeia.
4) Diana thinks that she writes clearly in English, but now she is beginning
to worder about that..

Vale!
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Senate Confidentiality
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:23:41 EST

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

Methinks thou doth protest too much! Go and join a greek organization? angry,
suspicious and sarcastic comments? not to be a forum of entertainment for the
Citizens?

Cassius:
Exactly so.

>I think you misread your history, Senator. I didn't know republican
government
was defined by secret meetings of the senate, secret pre-aproval of
candidates,
and a represenative body so suspicious of its own citizens and lacking
confidence in its judicial system that it could not put every issue it
debates
before its citizenry. I stand re-edified and re-informed.

Cassius:
Excellent, then we can move on.

>Senator, you appear to be doing a great job. However, the vitriol with which
you lash out at those who dissent does you a great diservice, and our nation.

Cassius:
Ah, so I should have taken your allusion that I'm some sort of cigar-smoking,
sneaky criminal in the friendly, brotherly spirit in which it was offered,
and also happily acquiesced to your suggestion that I should dress up as a
woman and defile the rites of the Bona Dea?

>You certainly must feel above suspicion and above reproach considering the
arrogance of your comments. Imagine, if you will, a modern politician
replying
in a newspaper to a dissenting constituent the way you have to me. He
wouldn't
be buying any green bannanas in Washington, and no error.

Cassius:
I see. So it is fine for you to be as nasty as you wish to myself and the
institutions of Nova Roma, but you should be treated with kid gloves in
return. I'm afraid I do not agree with such a world view... I believe
politeness and respect should go *both* ways. That is one very good reason
why I am not in Washington.

>You're supposed to be better than me, Senator. That said, I apologize for
any
sarcastic, angry, or suspicious comments I may have said. As a criminal
defense
attorney, I am suspicious of all secret machinations of my government.

Cassius:
You seem like an educated individual. That means you must obviously read and
understood information regarding the structure of Nova Roma, yet you were
willing to join. This does not make your sudden suspicion terribly
compelling. If your grievances against Roman government were that serious it
is difficult to understand why you would have ever joined in the first
place.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Endorsement -- Masters Astur and Maior
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:41:59 -0500 (EST)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

While it is apparent on the surface that those who have served Nova Roma
in the past have experience in senior positions, it is not always clear
what they have done with that experience or how they have managed it.
It may be that they have done well, or that for a variety of reasons
have been forced to leave thier elected office unattended and unanswered
for long periods of time. I would think that such information would be
as valuable to you,the voters, as the fact of any who have previously
served.

For that reason, and for the reason that I am confident that new and
fresh ideas will propel Nova Roma much further, than old and tired ideas
might, I make these above noted endorsements. To that end, I encourage
the consideration of those who have begun at the "bottom of the heap",
so to speak, and have labored hard for Nova Roma, not for glory, not for
honor, not for award, and not for the position, but rather for the good
of Nova Roma. Such a pair of gentlemen are Master's Astur and Maior.

Both have demonstrated a clarity of mind, and the willingness to put
forward unstinting effort for Nova Roma in thier individual areas of
expertise. They are vitally interested in Nova Roma and her success,
and have the support of all of those with whom they have worked in the
past, my own among the forefront.

They both come before you with well thought out plans for the future,
and with new ideas for the present and future concerns of Nova Roma.

Older former Senior Magistrates, hold positions as Senators for life,
and thier experience, and purpose will be devoted to determining the
wisdom of proposals formulated for the approval of you the Citizens of
Nova Roma. These Senior and experienced gentlemen are not lost to you,
for they will do excellent duty in the Senate for you.

Please join me in giving some consideration for those new men and women,
who gather from around the world, to provide Nova Roma with a truly
international flavor, and who bring ideas born of thier individual and
very rich home cultures to share with you and to propel Nova Roma to new
hieghts. Give them thier chance, as you have been so generous in giving
others thier chance to serve you previously as Magistrates and now as
Senators.

I have worked with both of these gentlemen closely and know them to be
generous, polite, and clear-thinking. They have both undertaken heavy
responsibilities and have carried them through magnificently, under
burdening circumstance, with both success, and in good time. It is my
belief, that in time if they continue as they have begun, they too will
be nominated to the Senate for thier service to NR or be admitted
therein by your decision at election time, but for now, I ask that you
consider them as successful applicants to serve you both strongly,
diligently and with a panache, that few are able to bring in such a
large degree, to their elected tasks and duties.

For the above reasons, I ask you for your consideration of Masters
Astur, and Maior to continue to serve you in thier energetic,
clear-thinking and intelligent way. This is an opportunity not only to
retain experience and past service in the Senate, but also to take
advantage of two strong individuals who will provide an excellent
leadership, work well together (a very strong point) and continuously,
as indicated in thier past endeavors, devote thier time, effort and
inelligence to Nova Roma, and most importantly to serve you, the
Citizens of Nova Roma, with an unflagging zeal and clarity of purpose.

Respectfully,

Marcus Minucius Audens
Senator, ProConsul, Magistrate -- Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Romanitas (was the whole laws discussion)
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:15:39 +0100

Salve Diana!
Salve Marcus Octavius Solaris,

>this is a long, tedious mail :o))
This is quite a short email, but in the same spirit of tediousnous & just to
nit pick :

>What is "Chinese"? What is "European"? Can something be "American"?

Aren't you the guy who referred to me as being 'a typical American' after
the NR Rally in August? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

MOS: Yes. I was toying around with clich�s. That doesn't mean they are correct! :)

Vale bene
Solaris

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:39:14 -0600

Senator:

I've tried to keep my comments lighthearted. Tone doesn't translate well over the internet, obviously, but your tone comes through loud and clear. I originally joined Nova Roma with great expectations, and with an eye towards creating a re-enactment legion here in the Midwest. I felt citizenship in NR would be a logical first step towards that end, and give me a feeling of legitamcy and historical grounding, as it were.

Your "love it or leave it" attitude is compelling. It is familiar to me. I deal with it everyday in the form of judges who used to be attorneys. Once elevated to the status of judges they go power mad, almost to a one. Some use their power for pure madness, some actually do some good. Your attitude is patrician, arrogant, and inflexible. I doubt you conduct your real world affairs as you conduct yourself in here. If you do, well, what can I say? Good luck.

I've offered a few olive branches in my comments, none of which have been accepted. "I believe
politeness and respect should go *both* ways." Not that I've seen. You're past seeing yourself with any perspective. As a founder and longtime mover and shaker in here, I'm sure your butt is kissed plenty and you're convinced you can do no wrong. Just like a judge. Until a higher court says you're wrong. Then you call them idiots.

Perhaps I've been wrong. I've visited your home page, reread the Constitution and other founding documents, and consider you to have more than an appearance of intelligence you so graciously accorded me. So,you could be right and I could have joined NR for the wrong reasons. I will discuss this with the true paterfamilias of Basilicatus, my father Flavius B. Furius. If I have dishonored myself here through misjudgment, I will resign my citizenship.

Vale

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:23 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Senate Confidentiality

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

Methinks thou doth protest too much! Go and join a greek organization? angry,
suspicious and sarcastic comments? not to be a forum of entertainment for the
Citizens?

Cassius:
Exactly so.

>I think you misread your history, Senator. I didn't know republican
government
was defined by secret meetings of the senate, secret pre-aproval of
candidates,
and a represenative body so suspicious of its own citizens and lacking
confidence in its judicial system that it could not put every issue it
debates
before its citizenry. I stand re-edified and re-informed.

Cassius:
Excellent, then we can move on.

>Senator, you appear to be doing a great job. However, the vitriol with which
you lash out at those who dissent does you a great diservice, and our nation.

Cassius:
Ah, so I should have taken your allusion that I'm some sort of cigar-smoking,
sneaky criminal in the friendly, brotherly spirit in which it was offered,
and also happily acquiesced to your suggestion that I should dress up as a
woman and defile the rites of the Bona Dea?

>You certainly must feel above suspicion and above reproach considering the
arrogance of your comments. Imagine, if you will, a modern politician
replying
in a newspaper to a dissenting constituent the way you have to me. He
wouldn't
be buying any green bannanas in Washington, and no error.

Cassius:
I see. So it is fine for you to be as nasty as you wish to myself and the
institutions of Nova Roma, but you should be treated with kid gloves in
return. I'm afraid I do not agree with such a world view... I believe
politeness and respect should go *both* ways. That is one very good reason
why I am not in Washington.

>You're supposed to be better than me, Senator. That said, I apologize for
any
sarcastic, angry, or suspicious comments I may have said. As a criminal
defense
attorney, I am suspicious of all secret machinations of my government.

Cassius:
You seem like an educated individual. That means you must obviously read and
understood information regarding the structure of Nova Roma, yet you were
willing to join. This does not make your sudden suspicion terribly
compelling. If your grievances against Roman government were that serious it
is difficult to understand why you would have ever joined in the first
place.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Eagle
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:56:41 -0500 (EST)

Tiberius (Eagle Editor);

I have for you, four issues of the Eagle, which were published during my
brief time as an Eagle Editor (4 months -- Sept., Oct,, Nov., and Dec.
1999). There amy have been an August issue but I do not at this point
remember. Censor Cincinnatus has indicated that he has retaned all
issued copies of the "Eagle" so he may be able to enlighten you further.

As you may know I was appointed as the Editor of "Eagle" by the Dictator
Germanicus to fill out the term of the duly elected Editor who was
forced to resign for a variety of reasons.

Unfortunately, they are crudely done, as I did not have any Publishing
software, and no computer. The effort was cut and paste (literally) and
printed at the generosity of Marcus Cassius Julianus, without whose
services I would not have been able to maintain a monthly rate of
publishing at such a low cost of subscription.

If you would be so kind as to provide me with a mailing address to which
I can send the hard-copies, I will get them in the mail straightaway.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] ON SALE NOW !!! THE EAGLE OF NOVA ROMA COMING TO A NEWS STAND NEAR YOU!!!!
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:08:25 -0500

FELLOW ROMANS:

ALL THE NEWS THAT WILL FIT IS COMING SOON ! BUY THE EAGLE NOW!!!

BE THE FIRST IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD TO BE IN THE KNOW. BUY THE EAGLE NOW!!!

EVEN IF YOU LIVE IN THE SUBURA YOU TO CAN BE IN THE KNOW BUY THE EAGLE NOW!!!

IF YOU DO'T GET IT YOU DON'T GET IT BUY THE EAGLE NOW!!!

FOLLOW THE ON GOING DRAMA THAT IS NOVA ROMA.

READ ABOUT ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO LIVE

" AS THE TIBER FLOWS"
(OUR OWN SOAP OPERA?)

READ THE EAGLE

THE OFFICAL NEWSLETTER OF NOVA ROMA

THE EAGLE

WHERE ROME COMES ALIVE!!!

HOW CAN I GET THE EAGLE YOU ASK ??? SEND $12.OO TO

EAGLE SUBSCRIPTIONS
NOVA ROMA
POST OFFICE BOX 1897 WELLS, MAINE 04090

WE HAVE IT ALL!!

DRAMA, HISTORY, POETRY, POLITICS, GARDNING , FICTION AND FACTS
AND FOR THE KIDDIES WE HAVE A CARTOON

SO PLEASE GET UP RIGHT NOW AND SEND YOU MONEY TO:

EAGLE SUBSCRIPTIONS
NOVA ROMA
POST OFFICE BOX 1897 WELLS, MAINE 04090

PS THE IS STILL TIME TO SEND IN AN ARTICLE FOR THE JANUARY EAGLE THE DEADLINE IS

DECEMBER 27, 2755

VALE
TIBERIUS GALERIUS PAULINUS
CURATOR DIFFERIUM-ELECT

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Eagle
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:11:39 -0500

Salve Senator;

Thank you very much for your post. My mailing address is

Tim Gallagher
5496 Ross Court New Market, Maryland 21774
Vale

Tiberius
----- Original Message -----
From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 4:03 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Eagle

Tiberius (Eagle Editor);

I have for you, four issues of the Eagle, which were published during my
brief time as an Eagle Editor (4 months -- Sept., Oct,, Nov., and Dec.
1999). There amy have been an August issue but I do not at this point
remember. Censor Cincinnatus has indicated that he has retaned all
issued copies of the "Eagle" so he may be able to enlighten you further.

As you may know I was appointed as the Editor of "Eagle" by the Dictator
Germanicus to fill out the term of the duly elected Editor who was
forced to resign for a variety of reasons.

Unfortunately, they are crudely done, as I did not have any Publishing
software, and no computer. The effort was cut and paste (literally) and
printed at the generosity of Marcus Cassius Julianus, without whose
services I would not have been able to maintain a monthly rate of
publishing at such a low cost of subscription.

If you would be so kind as to provide me with a mailing address to which
I can send the hard-copies, I will get them in the mail straightaway.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:50:19 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>

what kind of crap they are charging people with. The grand jury is hand selected by the prosecutor, with no outside interference from anyone. We used to joke that a grand jury would indicte a ham sandwhich if you wanted them to. Needless to say, grand juries are unpopular with defense attorneys and their clients. However, its funny how the grand jury doesn't find probable cause in cases like say, oh, where the police are accused of shooting some hapless citizen. The Grand jury is a joke and has no place in modern society. The reasons I've stated are the

The Grand Jury is an English tradition with its origins somewhere in Saxon politics but England abolished it sometime in the 19th century. It sounds very like some of the legalistic shenanigens in Icelandic Sagas!

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:55:05 -0600

In the words of the British Parliment they show on CSPAN:

Here here here. grrummph here here Here here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here hereHere here here. grrummph here here

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate Confidentiality (was Re: Senate Doors)

-----Original Message-----
From : Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>

what kind of crap they are charging people with. The grand jury is hand selected by the prosecutor, with no outside interference from anyone. We used to joke that a grand jury would indicte a ham sandwhich if you wanted them to. Needless to say, grand juries are unpopular with defense attorneys and their clients. However, its funny how the grand jury doesn't find probable cause in cases like say, oh, where the police are accused of shooting some hapless citizen. The Grand jury is a joke and has no place in modern society. The reasons I've stated are the

The Grand Jury is an English tradition with its origins somewhere in Saxon politics but England abolished it sometime in the 19th century. It sounds very like some of the legalistic shenanigens in Icelandic Sagas!

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Opinions
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 17:58:54 -0500 (EST)

Senator Maximus;

Yes, it is certainly your right to have and express an opinion, just as
it is a right of mine to disagree. My point, which you may have missed,
is that I have stated that in this case your opinion is incorrect, and I
have said it more than once.

My impression is that you use that "opinion" as a club, when no other
suitable argument for your friend's actions is available.

I further understand your need to speak for your friend as he sometimes
has difficulty in expressing himslf in such a manner that all may
understand completely his feelings and his designs. That is only
natural in a friend, and I support you in that totally.

However, I would beg your indulgence that disagreement, particularly
detailed thoughtful disagreement, does not equal dislike or emnity. It
is just and only that -- disagreement. I disagree with my colleagues
quite often, for a variety of reasons; lack of information. different
view of long term results, different view of moralality, and ethics,
undiscovered or unshared possibilities / circumstance, different views
of the reactions of a majority of concerned citizens, illegal or flawed
reasoning, etc. This does not mean that I cannot approach them as
friends when we meet. One of my closest internet friends, recently
elected to a high office in NR, sustains my disagreements on a weekly
basis and I his. However, we are still friends, and I do not "dislike"
him. I suspect from his comments that he does not 'dislike" me either.

Were disagreement synonomous with "dislike", then it could be said of me
that you yourself, and all the Senators, and all the current Magistrates
are "disliked" by me, and are my potential enemies. I do assure you,
sir, that such is not remotely true from my aspect, and I would hope
that the reciprocal is not true from my colleagues, as I do not believe
any of them have such a shallow personality.

Your opinions are, of course, your own, but when I have assured you that
they are erroneus, and you continue with them verbally without proof,
then your comments border on considering me to be someone who maintains
and publicizes statements which are not true. Those kinds of opinions
can lead to real emnity, if maintained.

So, I ask that you give the benefit of the doubt to all NR Citizens,
that thier disagreemnts with whoever it might be, is the result of a
differing sense of need or method rather than dislike, As a recent
posting made quite clear, the "new" citizens in NR do not need guidance
about who to like and dislike, who to agree with and disagree with, who
to support and not support.

All that is really required, in my humble view, is to give them the
information necessary to make a decision, the truth of it, and your
confidence that they will do thier best. I do not believe it necessary,
intelligent, or wise, to publicly make a declaration about the inner
feelings / beliefs of any person, particularly if it is insulting,
without adequate proof of that accusation. I believe you have said
similar things in defense of your friend on more than one occasion, as
you felt it necessary.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Some Serious Comments on Senate Confidentiality
From:	"metamorphosis2003 <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca>" <metamorphosis2003@yahoo.ca>
Date:	Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:03:52 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I see both sides of this argument, but I take a more moderate stance
toward the problem, I think, than some. But we don't all think
alike :)

I have always been under the historical impression that the Tribunes
conveyed to the populace the items of discussion currently being
entertained by the Senate. They did not have television back then,
so the Tribs served as the information via regarding political
discussions.

The only tribune in Nova Roma, whom I have observed to consistently
do this was Lucius Sergius back in 2000. Mind you it was not 'who
said what' and a verbatim report, but he was good to post a general
report on what the Senate was up to. Even who introduced the item to
the Senate would to me, be fair game.

There is absolutely nothing illegal or ahistorical about this, that I
can see.

Since then, what we mostly see is the Tribunes reporting the Senate
Ballot or the outcome of the Senate vote, giving, I'm afraid, little
opportunity for the people to imput to the Conscript Body on issues
affecting the republic. This promotes a more harmonious relationship,
and shortens the 'us' and 'them' fence.

The Tribunes could still do this. Diana, why not bring back this
tradition? Just a general description of 'what is being
discussed/proposed??? This is the historical way, as far as I can
see.

There will be times when the Senate's advise is sought from
magistrates and people, and I don't think questions to the Senate
from the populace should be conveyed to the populace of course, but
Senate agenda stuff.....sure, why not? There may have to be the odd
exeption to this rule...of course, but I am talking rule of thumb
here.

What I DON'T (not yelling) think should happen is having a Senate
list that is wide open, showing the comments of every single Senator.
This stiffles the ability to get anything productive accomplished,
IMHO.

Valete,
P. Cornelia
Former Praetor

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