Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:01:51 -0800

Avete Omnes,
----- Original Message -----
From: Laureatus Armoricus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ

Sulla: I agree it would be interesting. I am personally glad our taxes
do not go to pay anyone's salary, or I would be raising hell about this. <g>
To appoint essentially useless magistrates (because according to Gn. Equtius
the lower scribes do the work and the mid-level magistrates take the
credit). I do not see how that encourages participation. But beyond that
shouldn't our citizens wish to volunter their services to Rome without
expecting a title or to be rewarded in some manner.

[Laureatus Armoricus respondet] It seemed to me that Gn. Equitius used a
humorous tone when refering to the respective duties of the Accensi (hence
the "tongue in cheek" quote)...I of course have no doubt that they will ALL
work and do their utmost to develop Nova Roma according to the platforms
both Consules have been elected on. The fact that the said consules clearly
admitted that they couldn't be everywhere all the time seems an honest and
realistic view of the current affairs and I have personally no objection to
an official college of assistants (note, please, that we are not talking of
a government, rather a consilium) which was always in effect in previous
consulships but took the form of an informal club of gentlemen.

Sulla Response: Humorous or not it is a telling remark. I remember last year that Propraetor Caeso Fabius had to fire at least two scribes for not doing their duty. How long did it take him to discover this? If those citizens still get century points for payment, what service did they render to deserve any payment. How long will it take for Consul Caeso Fabius to realize that members of his "consilium" are not doing their jobs. Now, since this is a "consilium" and not a government, should these individuals be awarded with century points? And, I must dispute your final sentence, my staff was not an informal club, it was a staff. This "consilium" is more like an army of clients.

Sulla: As for encouraging participation, there is nothing to prevent our
citizens from posting anything they want on the ML, or getting involved in
Sodalitas, trying to establish face to face meetings. But to appoint
someone a scribe to "motivate them" seems to cheapen the role and
responsbility of those who held those positions prior to this army of
bureaucrats. And you should note that this coming from someone who has been
labelled as a bureaucrat by M. Octavius Solaris.

[Laureatus Armoricus respondet] Recognition of the work required and done is
only one of the tools of good management. Perhaps the consules merely
attempted to create a team spirit that will benefit the community as a whole
when the job is done right and conscienciously by a motivated group.

Sulla: What work requires the staff of 26 people or 10.8% of the entire active population of Nova Roma?

As a last note, I do not believe that the work of the consules cheapens the
role of those occupying a public position nor does it create an army of
bureaucrats :

Sulla: You misread my statement, I stated, "But to appoint someone a scribe to "motivate them" seems to cheapens the role and responsbility of those who held those positions prior to this army of bureaucrats." In otherwords he is cheapening the position of scribes and those who held the position before by his poltical spoils system.

It simply states what objectives our senior magistrates have
set for themselves and recognizes officially who will be the "little
helpers" who have so willingly offered the Res Publica their time and sweat.

Sulla: "Little Helpers." Interesting description. I certainly never considered my staff as little helpers. Instead I trusted them and held them in my confidence.

Of course it is by no means a way of saying that they will take care of
everything and install some kind of centralised government (gods forbid)!

Sulla: Why that is what was done in Thule, where 1/3 of the province citizens were titled magistrates.

Diana Moravia for instance is now organising regular meeting in Gallia and
as far as I know she is not part of the team of accensi.

Sulla: She is a Tribune of the Plebs, it would be unethical for a Tribune to be in the staff of a Patrician Consul! How could she protect the rights of the Plebs if she is under oath to a Patrician Consul!

There are many
other examples of such events, one just has to read the archives of the main
list to be convinced of the well being of Nova Roma. I am sure that an
official framework to develop such social gatherings, and indeed any
collective work between dedicated citizens, will not hinder the growth of
Nova Roma but will, on the contrary, provide support and advice to would be
organisers.

Sulla: We shall see.

But it comes at a prize : The necessary appointment of stable
volunteers who can serve as first port of call.

Sulla: Sure and how long will it take for oversight to take place. I am certain that it is far easier for a Consul to surpvise 4 staff members than to have a Consul administer 26 staff members.

Their name and number (call
them Accensi, little elves or "unappointed friends who came to help") is,
in my humble opinion, a matter of appreciation and secondary debate.

Sulla: I disagree if they all get century points, and that is a form of payment.

But my views may be biased and I am looking forward to some more healthy
discussion. Perhaps Titus Labienus Fortunatus or Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
our consules, could enlighten us as to where they stand, although the
constitution gives them the right and imperium to appoint assistants as they
see fit.

Sulla: Yes it will be interesting to see their comments, though I reckon I know what at least Consul Caeso Fabius will say.

In any case, Corneli Sulla, I agree with you on the underlying issue : We
really need a census, soon, so we can contemplate the future of our
community and the way it is led on a sound and realistic basis. I thank you
for your input and will be happy to keep my mind open to some objections
that I may have overlooked.

Sulla: Thank you for your agreement here. I am looking forward for my law to be put to the test to see if it truly needs revision.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Optime vale

Cornelius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Citizen without official title ;-)


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Congratulations
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:26:07 +0100

Salve Colleague!

>First of all congratulations for your new office of Senior Consul.

Thank You for your kind words.

>I am glad that the matter of oaths has been solved. I read the text
>of the oath for the apparitores and think it is very well suited.

Yes, I found a good solution with the help of Illustrus Decius Iunius
Palladius, my colleague and some others.

>By the way I think Senator Decius Iunius Palladius threw light on
>the matter brilliantly.

I agree!

>|It is good to hear that You are OK! I wish You all the |Luck in the
>|future and I really appreciate your friendship. I hope that we soon
>|may sit together on the marble benches of the Senate! ;-)
>
>
>Maximas Gratias amice!. By the way, I am already sitting on the
>benches of the Senate since the month of December :-) .

Yes I know, but You haven't attended a official meeting yet (or is my
memory totally wrong?), that was what I meant. ;-)

>Habeas fortunam optimam
>
>Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
>Senator
>Tribunus Plebis
>Dominus Factionis Veneta
>Propraetor provincialis Argentinae
>http://argentina.novaroma.org

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Cohors Consulis CFQ and questions
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:32:34 +0100

Salve Quirites!

There has been some questions about how my Cohors really is built and
why it is so big..

These question were expected. You have already got the humorous
answer, it is all about fairy tales and You also got some serious
answers. Some citizens suggested that it is about need for
assistance, commitment, training and participation. All these are
correct, but I could write an entire articleon these themes, adding
even more arguments. But this is about answers, so here they come
(still I couldn't make it short ;-) ):

First how is it structured? Look at this map!

(If You can't recieve this map through Yahoo Groups! send for a copy
from Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com> who is my
Ductor Cohortis.

The Conclave is the place where all in the Cohors meet. There are
three Officinas that are specialised in different areas, just look at
Edictum Consulare CFQ I de Cohorte Consulis CFQ Constituenda (The
First Consular edict CFQ on the establishment of the Cohors Consulis
CFQ). Many Accensi have two titles, not because I like titles, but
because our Coinstitution only mentions Accensi as the assistants of
a Consul, the second title is the more descriptive title only
established in my Edictum during my term.

==================
Secondly why is it so big?

First of all because I have set high goals, I will try to achieve
them, but to do that I will need assistants.

Secondly The total number is 21 Accensi, but I would say that I in
reallity don't have that many assistants.*

In the end I guess that I will work slightly less than my whole
Cohors together. Is it wrong for a Consul to have that kind of
assistance? No, of course not, at least I don't think so!

Then why do I have this number of assistants. One reason is that they
have knowledge and competence that I don't have and another reason is
that with them at my side I probably will have to work half as much
as I would do without them. Without my Cohors I would probably not
have the strength to be a Consul, as someone said, with high
ambitions.

Of course I am aware of the fact that high ambitions and many good
assistants will not guarantee that I or anyone else will achieve
much. The only forces that can guarantee that I can achive anything
in the end are my Fellow Senators, the Co-Consul, the other
Magistrati for this year and the Populus in the Comitiae. If I don't
have the needed support there I will achieve less, even if both my
assistants and I work very hard. But I am sure that my colleague and
I will get this support and I am _very_ optimistic about the
possibilities for this year's Consuls to contribute to the
development of Nova Roma! ;-)

=================
* Please bear with me, I am going to crunch numbers just to show that
the Cohors isn't that big. My assistants are in many instances people
with full time jobs, families and houses and some are full time
students. If we don't count sleeping, eating, travelling to work,
working, caring for houses, kids, parents and so on, I would guess
that most have about one hour for personal hobbies (which Nova Roma
is to most ;-) ) per day. If my Accensi give Nova Roma half of that
time and then again half of that to my Cohors and the other half to
other activities in Nova Roma (many are Scriba to other Magistrati or
Governors too). This would give me 0,25 hour per Accensi per day
(this is probably a high number), with 21 Accensi that would be a
little more than 5 hours per day. In a normal week I guess I will
work about 4 hours per day as a Consul (I worked a little less than 3
hours per day as an Curule Aedile). As You see I probably will work
more than 75% of the time the whole Cohors is able to give to
assisting me as a Consul. I am sure that I will not be surprised to
see some of my Accensi work much more than that but, on the other
hand, some may not able to work even 0,25 hours per day, because of
personal reasons.
=============
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Cohors Consulis CFQ and questions
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:54:40 -0800

Avete Omnes et Consul Caeso Fabius,

Please bear with me on my prolonged response.
----- Original Message -----
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 4:32 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Cohors Consulis CFQ and questions

Salve Quirites!

There has been some questions about how my Cohors really is built and
why it is so big..

Sulla: Not so much as questions but legitimate criticisms of the spoils system you have created.

These question were expected.

Sulla: I am sure they were and I am sure that your concilium prepared part of this response for you.

You have already got the humorous
answer, it is all about fairy tales and You also got some serious
answers. Some citizens suggested that it is about need for
assistance, commitment, training and participation. All these are
correct, but I could write an entire articleon these themes, adding
even more arguments. But this is about answers, so here they come
(still I couldn't make it short ;-) ):

Sulla: But we still have not been given a satisfactory answer to employ over 10% of the active Nova Roman population as part of your staff.

First how is it structured? Look at this map!

Sulla: Consul, there are no attachments on Yahoogroups.

(If You can't recieve this map through Yahoo Groups! send for a copy
from Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com> who is my
Ductor Cohortis.

Sulla: I already have one, thank you and it l ists 26 individuals.

The Conclave is the place where all in the Cohors meet. There are
three Officinas that are specialised in different areas, just look at
Edictum Consulare CFQ I de Cohorte Consulis CFQ Constituenda (The
First Consular edict CFQ on the establishment of the Cohors Consulis
CFQ). Many Accensi have two titles, not because I like titles, but
because our Coinstitution only mentions Accensi as the assistants of
a Consul, the second title is the more descriptive title only
established in my Edictum during my term.

Sulla: According to the chart I have, I see 26 individual:

Senator M. Municius Audens, Senator Patricia Cassia (II), Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, C. Curius Saturnius, M. Constantianus Serapio, Sex. Apollonius Scipio (II), T. Octavius Pius (II), Tib. Apollonius Cictriax, Fla. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus, L. Rutilius Minervalis, Fran. Apulius Caesar, Julillia Sempronia Magna, Emilia Curia Finnica, Lucius Salix Cicero, Arnamentia Moravia, Ti. Arminius Genalis, Gn. Equitius Marinius, Gn. Salix Galaicus, Gn. Octavius Noricus, C. Minucius Scaevola, Gaia Fabia Livia, A. Apollonius Cordus, Sp. Postimus Tubertius. WHEW done! Only three are listed in duplicate.

==================
Secondly why is it so big?

First of all because I have set high goals, I will try to achieve
them, but to do that I will need assistants.

Sulla: I understand that but still 10% of the active population of Nova Roma?

Secondly The total number is 21 Accensi, but I would say that I in
reallity don't have that many assistants.*

Sulla: Your figures are wrong Consul, its 26 with 3 duplicates.

In the end I guess that I will work slightly less than my whole
Cohors together. Is it wrong for a Consul to have that kind of
assistance? No, of course not, at least I don't think so!

Sulla: No one has claimed that it is wrong Consul. However, 26 staff members is excessive. Its overly bureaucratic and I do not see how it is necessary.

Then why do I have this number of assistants. One reason is that they
have knowledge and competence that I don't have and another reason is
that with them at my side I probably will have to work half as much
as I would do without them. Without my Cohors I would probably not
have the strength to be a Consul, as someone said, with high
ambitions.

Sulla: I must ask, where do your competencies lie then? Besides promulgating edicts to appoint people to your staff?

<Snip>

=================
* Please bear with me, I am going to crunch numbers just to show that
the Cohors isn't that big. My assistants are in many instances people
with full time jobs, families and houses and some are full time
students. If we don't count sleeping, eating, travelling to work,
working, caring for houses, kids, parents and so on, I would guess
that most have about one hour for personal hobbies (which Nova Roma
is to most ;-) ) per day. If my Accensi give Nova Roma half of that
time and then again half of that to my Cohors and the other half to
other activities in Nova Roma (many are Scriba to other Magistrati or
Governors too). This would give me 0,25 hour per Accensi per day
(this is probably a high number), with 21 Accensi that would be a
little more than 5 hours per day. In a normal week I guess I will
work about 4 hours per day as a Consul (I worked a little less than 3
hours per day as an Curule Aedile). As You see I probably will work
more than 75% of the time the whole Cohors is able to give to
assisting me as a Consul. I am sure that I will not be surprised to
see some of my Accensi work much more than that but, on the other
hand, some may not able to work even 0,25 hours per day, because of
personal reasons.
=============

Sulla: Consul you do realize that all of our previous consuls have had staff who were affected by real life events. During this past year two of my staff members, Senator Lucius Sicinius Drusus and Senator Decius Iunius Invictus both suffered deaths in their family their absence did not prevent me from doing my duties and drafting laws. I am certain that my colleague had staff members affected by prolonged illnesses as well. My point is, that you should be able to do the job yourself as well. Your statement here leads me to believe that you have appointed a large staff to balance your own inadequacies. I certainly hope that is not the case for Nova Roma sake.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:18:18 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Corneli,

> To appoint essentially useless magistrates (because according to Gn. Equtius
> the lower scribes do the work and the mid-level magistrates take the
> credit).

That was obviously a joke.

> I do not see how that encourages participation. But beyond that
> shouldn't our citizens wish to volunter their services to Rome without
> expecting a title or to be rewarded in some manner.

No one wants to do work without recognition. We're not handing out titles
like "Imperator" to anyone that asks for it; the appointed positions carry
the humble title of "Scriba" - a small compensation for the work that is
being done.

> Sulla Response: Humorous or not it is a telling remark. I remember
> last year that Propraetor Caeso Fabius had to fire at least two scribes
> for not doing their duty. How long did it take him to discover this?

Presumably he gave them a chance to improve their performance before making
the final decision.

> If those citizens still get century points for payment,
> what service did they render to deserve any payment.

Scribae do not get century points after leaving that position.

> How long will it take for Consul Caeso Fabius to realize that members i
> of his "consilium" are not doing their jobs.

So, are you saying he's incompetent to supervise appointees?

Considering how structured his staff is, I would expect that the senior
members would inform the consul if anyone they work with seems to be
useless.

> Now, since this is a "consilium" and not a government,
> should these individuals be awarded with century points?

Yes. They'll be doing work, and will get a small temporary award for
doing so.

> But to appoint someone a scribe to "motivate them" seems to cheapen the role and
> responsbility of those who held those positions prior to this army of
> bureaucrats.

Have we heard any recent scribae objecting to the new appointments?

> Sulla: What work requires the staff of 26 people or 10.8% of the entire
> active population of Nova Roma?

Considering how much he accomplished as Propraetor and Aedile, I think Consul
Fabius can judge better than anyone how much work there is to do, how many
people are required to do it, and how best to motivate them.

> In otherwords he is cheapening the position of scribes and those who held
> the position before by his poltical spoils system.

Absurd. His scribae and accensi will do just as much work as any previous
scribae or accensi.

> Sulla: Why that is what was done in Thule, where 1/3 of the province
> citizens were titled magistrates.

How many other provinciae have an Academia? Thule is a model of the *right*
way to create a provincial staff.

> Sulla: She [Diana Moravia] is a Tribune of the Plebs, it would be
> unethical for a Tribune to be in the staff of a Patrician Consul!
> How could she protect the rights of the Plebs if she is under
> oath to a Patrician Consul!

Indeed. Fortunately, Diana Moravia is not a member of either Consul's staff.

Now, as for unethical... two years ago, did not a newly elected tribune confess
to being a "client" of one of the Censores of that time, and reveal this only
after winning the election?

> Sulla: Sure and how long will it take for oversight to take place. I am
> certain that it is far easier for a Consul to surpvise 4 staff members
> than to have a Consul administer 26 staff members.

Considering how well he did with a large staff last year, I don't expect any
problems at all supervising the current group of accensi.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] the CFQ and questions
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:19:02 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 4:35:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
christer.edling@telia.com writes:

> Secondly The total number is 21 Accensi, but I would say that I in
> reallity don't have that many assistants.*
>
>

Really Consul? I got by with one scribe, and one accensus. Ah but Rome was
smaller then.
Wait! We have no idea our size until we carry out a census. And when will
that be?

Q Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:31:16 -0000

Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso against
Edictum Consulare CFQ II de Nominationibus in Cohorte Consulis CFQ
(The Second Consular edict CFQ II on the appointments in the Cohors
Consulis CFQ)

Whereas: The Constitution of Nova Roma guarantees the right to
appeal to the State for assistance in Article II, Section b,
subsection 7. I, Quintus Cassius Calvus, do hereby petition the
Tribunes of the Plebs to exercise their right of Intercesso against
Edictum Consulare CFQ II de Nominationibus in Cohorte Consulis CFQ
(The Second Consular edict CFQ II on the appointments in the Cohors
Consulis CFQ).

Whereas: I, Quintus Cassius Calvus, duly elected magistrate of Nova
Roma in the office of Rogator, and duly sworn to Protect and Defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma and to act in the best interests of the
Senate and People of Nova Roma as per the LEX IUNIA DE IUSIURANDO

I make this petition on the grounds that Spurius Postumius Tubertus,
appointed Petitor (Accensus Iunior) in the Officina Iuris et Rei
Politicae in Article V., subsection c. is a minor and has no legal
standing to give consent to make any oath as required in Edictum
Consulare CFQ III de Iusiurando Apparitorium (The Third Consular
Edict Concerning the Oath of Attendants/Apparitores)

I also make this petition on the grounds that Titus Arminius
Genialis, appointed Petitor (Accensus Iunior) in the Officina ad
Consuetudines et Communicationes in Article III, subsection C is a
minor and has no legal standing to give consent to make any oath as
required in Edictum Consulare CFQ III de Iusiurando Apparitorium (The
Third Consular Edict Concerning the Oath of Attendants/Apparitores)

As the two previously named individuals are minors and have no legal
standing to give consent, and I am duly sworn to protect and defend
the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I regret to make this petition.
It is my duty to protect the Senate and People of Nova Roma from
potential litigation in macronational courts of law. Requiring
oaths and appointment of minors to positions of Apparitores as
defined in the Constitution of Nova Roma Article IV, section 9.
leaves Nova Roma vulnerable to potential litigation in macronational
courts of law.

Quintus Cassius Calvus
Rogator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:37:25 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 5:20:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, haase@konoko.net
writes:

> How many other provinciae have an Academia? Thule is a model of the *right*
> way to create a provincial staff.
>

You have to be joking! What was Confucius quote, the more government
offices,
the less you accomplish?

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ II
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:43:00 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 5:20:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, haase@konoko.net
writes:

> Now, as for unethical... two years ago, did not a newly elected tribune
> confess
> to being a "client" of one of the Censores of that time, and reveal this
> only
> after winning the election?
>
>

Oh yes, I remember. And the republic collapsed because of it. Really Marcus
Octavius, I know you hate historical precedent, but lots of Tribunes were
clients of Patricians in old Rome. I believe that Lucius Cornelius was
referring to a dilemma that said Tribune might find herself in if she was
still on the staff. He wanted to avoid that.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:48:20 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso against
> Edictum Consulare CFQ II de Nominationibus in Cohorte Consulis CFQ
> (The Second Consular edict CFQ II on the appointments in the Cohors
> Consulis CFQ)

Interesting. Did you approach Consul Fabius with your concerns? Or
is the first you've spoken of it? If the latter, then I'd suspect
a political motive rather than a genuine concern.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: [ComitiaCuriata] Sample text for the vesting of Imperium
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 02:52:16 +0100 (CET)

Cn. Salix Astur lictor curiatus Quiritibus Romanis S.P.D.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur, Lictor Novae Romae and member of the Comitia
Curiata, hereby witness and acknowledge the passing of Imperium -- the
power to carry out elected duties and uphold the laws --to the duly
elected Nova Roma Magistrates for the year 2755 AUC. I acknowledge that
this imperium will be held both by elected and appointed magistrates in
the coming year, both on the State and Provincial level.

May the Gods and the spirit of Roma Antiqua watch over the Magistrates
of Nova Roma, and grant them the guidance and wisdom to use their
Imperium for the positive furtherance of Romanitas. May this sacred
bond bring favor upon our Nation and our Citizens in this coming year.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Postales
Felicita las Navidades con las postales m�s
divertidas desde http://postales.yahoo.es

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:56:06 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Quinte Fabi,

> > How many other provinciae have an Academia? Thule is a model of the *right*
> > way to create a provincial staff.
>
> You have to be joking! What was Confucius quote, the more government
> offices, the less you accomplish?

Not at all. Confucius apparently never made it to Thule.

What other Propraetor has accomplished so much as Caeso Fabius? What other
Aedile has accomplished so much?

His outstanding record shows that having a large staff can be beneficial.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 02:02:14 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<haase@c...> wrote:

> Interesting. Did you approach Consul Fabius with your concerns? Or
> is the first you've spoken of it? If the latter, then I'd suspect
> a political motive rather than a genuine concern.
>

Salve,

I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of Nova
Roma. I have petitioned the Tribunes to what I see as a potential
legal liabilitity. As a Consul's Edict has the force of law, it is
neccessary to have that law either upheld or struck according to the
rule of law. I am responsible to the Senate and People of Nova Roma
as a duly elected magistrate. That responsiblity includes
transparency in following the rule of law, not through behind the
scenes machinations and back room deals.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Thanks and compliments
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:12:32 -0300 (ART)

Salve, Fauste, et salvete omnes

The year finished, and i am no more the Tribunus
Plebis.

Many thanks to my fellow former Tribunes, Claudius
Salix, Manius Villius and Lucius Mauricius, and
specially to Gnaeus Salix Astur, who in my opinion was
the best Tribune of last year.

I welcome the new Tribunes, Diana Moravia, Marcus
Marcius and Lucius Pompeius. Good luck in your
offices, may Ceres, favorite deity of the Plebs, help
you.

I want to thank to the Plebs and to Nova Roma for this
opportunity, and to my former Tribunician Scribe,
Lucius Arminius Faustus, for their excellent job.

Fauste will continue to be my provincial Scribe, and
now he is Quaestor, and Aedilis Plebis! My deepest
congratulations, and may the gods help you in this
year.

Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Senator
Propraetor Brasiliae

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:17:41 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of Nova Roma.

Certainly; I don't dispute that.

You are within your legal rights to ask the Tribunes to veto anything
whatsoever.

While it would have been polite, considerate, and constructive to
write to the Consul directly and ask him to modify the edict, none of
those things are required by the Constitution. Instead, the Constitution
permits magistrates to make a public spectable over trivial matters if
they see fit.

> That responsiblity includes transparency in following the rule of law,
> not through behind the scenes machinations and back room deals.

Machinations? Back room deals?

It is now a "back room deal" to privately question an edict before
challenging it publically?

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: about Q.F. Maximus antiquo on the oath as dominus factionis
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:24:12 -0300 (ART)

Salvete

--- Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
<danielovi@ciudad.com.ar> escreveu: > Salve Senator
Deci Iuni Palladi
[..]
> |Salve Senator L. Pompei,
> |
> ||A quick definition is all magistrates elected by
> the people or
> |appointed by the Senate. The quickest way to find
> them is to go the
> |magistrates' page linked off the main Nova Roma
> page. There you will
> |find censors, consuls, praetors, Tribunes of the
> Plebs, Aediles,
> |quaestors, Curator Differum, Curator Araneum,
> rogators, interpreters.

M.ARMINIUS: Just a small remak, the Interpretes are a
Decuria of the Apparitures, they have the same status
of the Assensi, Lictores and Scribes.

> |All these should take the oath. On the provincial
> level the governors
> |and legates should take the oath as well.
> |
> |If a magistrate feels some need for his assistants
> (accensi, scribes,
> |etc) to take an oath he is free I suppose to make
> one up for them,
> |but it shouldn't be the magistrate's oath.
[..]
> |Vale,
> |Decius Iunius Palladius
>
> Vale bene
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 02:38:18 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<haase@c...> wrote:
>
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of
Nova Roma.
>
> Certainly; I don't dispute that.
>
> You are within your legal rights to ask the Tribunes to veto
anything
> whatsoever.
>
> While it would have been polite, considerate, and constructive to
> write to the Consul directly and ask him to modify the edict, none
of
> those things are required by the Constitution. Instead, the
Constitution
> permits magistrates to make a public spectable over trivial matters
if
> they see fit.

Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect. If it
were political machinations I would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
tribunes. And what office am I supposedly aspiring to next year? Oh
that's right I can't run for office next year, never mind.

An Edict is a matter of public record once issued. I have voiced
concern only two sections of the Edict. Remember that Nova Roma is
not only a "nation," it is a legal corporation subject to the
macronational laws of the political subdivision in which is it
incorporated. My petition is a matter of public record in which I
am not only attempting to protect Nova Roma from a potential legal
situation, but also protecting my own self as a magistrate of Nova
Roma. Should a legal situation arise, it is now public record that I
brought this before the internal organization of Nova Roma through
the internal structure of the corporation. I'm not only protecting
Nova Roma, I'm protecting my own wallet.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:51:04 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect.

Yes.

> If it were political machinations I would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
> tribunes.

If it were a legitimate concern you would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
Consul, then gone to the Tribunes only if he was uncooperative.

> And what office am I supposedly aspiring to next year? Oh
> that's right I can't run for office next year, never mind.

I can't run for office next year either. Are you and I, therefore,
both equally unable to act from political motivation?

At the very same time that one of the new Consuls has come under
attack for the size of his staff, you launch another attack on
a related subject, by trying to get the Tribunes to act against
him. You did not try to resolve the situation peacefully with the
Consul; you sought to create a conflict within the magistrates over a
trivial issue that could have easily been resolved peacefully.

> My petition is a matter of public record in which I
> am not only attempting to protect Nova Roma from a potential legal
> situation, but also protecting my own self as a magistrate of Nova
> Roma.

You are not a director or board member of this corporation, you
are a volunteer. Your exposure to liability would be insignificant -
even if there were any actual risk from this situation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:52:03 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Whatever criticisms you believe that Q. Cassius had it does not take away from the merit of his request for a veto of Consul Caeso Fabius's edict. He is Consul and should realize that when you are consul your edicts and laws are under scrutiny.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect.

Yes.

> If it were political machinations I would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
> tribunes.

If it were a legitimate concern you would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
Consul, then gone to the Tribunes only if he was uncooperative.

> And what office am I supposedly aspiring to next year? Oh
> that's right I can't run for office next year, never mind.

I can't run for office next year either. Are you and I, therefore,
both equally unable to act from political motivation?

At the very same time that one of the new Consuls has come under
attack for the size of his staff, you launch another attack on
a related subject, by trying to get the Tribunes to act against
him. You did not try to resolve the situation peacefully with the
Consul; you sought to create a conflict within the magistrates over a
trivial issue that could have easily been resolved peacefully.

> My petition is a matter of public record in which I
> am not only attempting to protect Nova Roma from a potential legal
> situation, but also protecting my own self as a magistrate of Nova
> Roma.

You are not a director or board member of this corporation, you
are a volunteer. Your exposure to liability would be insignificant -
even if there were any actual risk from this situation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:05:18 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect.
>
> Yes.

You are entitled to your opinion.

> If it were a legitimate concern you would have PRIVATELY petitioned
the
> Consul, then gone to the Tribunes only if he was uncooperative.

In other words, go behind closed doors and leave the People in the
dark? That is fine for the Senate debating proposals, laws,
appointments, and other sensative items.

> I can't run for office next year either. Are you and I, therefore,
> both equally unable to act from political motivation?

Strange you criticize me for dealing honestly, openly, and
transparently about public matters and accusing me of attempting to
create a political circus. I recall a few times that a certain
Consular now Censor more than benefited with a political circus going
on in the main list. If you recall in the great Sullan Gens Reform
Intercesso debate I consistently hen-pecked for openness and
transparency by Sulla. You were more than supportive then. Now that
I act with openness and transparency and following the law, you
condemn me? Reminds me of a story about a pot and kettle getting in
a debate about color.

> At the very same time that one of the new Consuls has come under
> attack for the size of his staff, you launch another attack on
> a related subject:

Beep! I've never said that I cared one whit if the Consuls have 4
people on their staff or a 104 people on their staff. If the Consuls
feel they need a lot of help then they should appoint at many people
as they think they need. My issue and petition deals with only two
particular persons and their status as minors.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:13:41 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> In other words, go behind closed doors and leave the People in the dark?

I do not consider it "going behind closed doors" to privately write to
a fellow magistrate with your concerns and ask him to change his policies.
It is certainly preferable to trying to goad other magistrates to act
against him.

> Strange you criticize me for dealing honestly, openly, and
> transparently about public matters and accusing me of attempting to
> create a political circus.

That is exactly what I think you are trying to do here. A Tribune's
veto should be an act of last resort, for a renegade magistrate who
is out of control. Yet you went there *first*, without making even
the slightest attempt to settle the matter amicably.

> I recall a few times that a certain Consular now Censor more than
> benefited with a political circus going on in the main list.

All of that happened *after* the issues were discussed privately, and
we had reached an impasse.

> Now that I act with openness and transparency and following the law,
> you condemn me?

Yes, I do. Your call for a veto, without first attempting to
communicate with the Consul and persuade him to your point of view,
is grossly irresponsible.

Just because something is done with "openness and transparency"
does not make it any less contemptible.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:35:36 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > In other words, go behind closed doors and leave the People in
the dark?
>
> I do not consider it "going behind closed doors" to privately write
to
> a fellow magistrate with your concerns and ask him to change his
policies.
> It is certainly preferable to trying to goad other magistrates to
act
> against him.

We obviously have a serious difference of opinion of what is public
matter and what is private. Believe it or not, I do understand where
you are coming from and why you feel the way you do. If you feel I
am in error and have acted rashly you are intitled to that opinion
and I don't hold it against you for expressing your opinion. I wish
you'd offer the same courtesy of allowing me to have my opinion.
What is done is done. I've explained my reasons, you are free to
agree, disagree, chastize, criticize, condemn, ect. The lesson I've
learned from this is thus: "Taking the course one feels is right is
not always popular."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:48:44 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> We obviously have a serious difference of opinion of what is public
> matter and what is private.

True, and not likely to change.

> Believe it or not, I do understand where you are coming from and
> why you feel the way you do.

Thanks. Although I still think it would have been better to approach
the Consul before calling for a veto, I am beginning to see that you
do sincerely believe in your position.

A few hours ago, Consul Fabius came under attack by some citizens
(not you) regarding the size of his cabinet. When I saw your call
for Intercessio appear, this at first struck me as suspicious in its
timing - part of a coordinated assault, perhaps, an effort to attack
from two directions at once.

I no longer believe that to be the case; from your more recent messages,
I am convinced that you are sincere.

I still think it would have been better to contact him privately. I
know Caeso was awake at the beginning of this thread; a quick note to
him probably would have gotten a reply in less time than the request
for intercessio took to write.

> I wish you'd offer the same courtesy of allowing me to have my opinion.

I shall. I think that your choice of action was far from ideal - but
I accept that you had no malicious intent, and apologize for initially
making that assumption.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 04:09:21 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<haase@c...> wrote:
> Thanks. Although I still think it would have been better to
approach
> the Consul before calling for a veto, I am beginning to see that you
> do sincerely believe in your position.

I'll take that as advice and not criticism. I do apologize for not
conjugating you name properly. But I think you know from past
experiences that conjugation and proper tense is something I'm never
going to pick up. I think I've already insulted you enough tonight
to spell your name wrong.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Editorial Board for The Eagle.
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:35:25 -0500

Salve

Sorry to break up a good fight (and only the SECOND day of the new year) but on to some other topic.

A question can the Curator Differium change (for NEW subscriptions only on or after January 1 2756) the current price of 12.00 per year?

I know that you are as tried of me asking as I am of doing so. So for the Last time and in as nice a voice as I can muster. PLEASE, PLEASE SEND IN ANYTHING THAT WAS PROMISED OR AT LEAST ASKED FOR THE JANUARY EAGLE.

FINALY I would invite any and all citizens who live (or who happen to be in town visiting) in the metro WASHINGTON D.C. area to join me at the Taverna ( a REAL ONE not cyber space). The purpose of the meeting is to give you a sneak peek of the JANUARY EAGLE AND GET YOUR COMMENTS. This will take place on MONDAY JANUARY 6TH in the Stamp Student Union of The University of Maryland in College Park. We will meet in the front lobby, at 6:00 PM ( For those who come after 6:00 pm we will leave a note at the desk )and proceed to the Taverna of choice. Those that show up shall be members of the Eagle Editorial Board. ( I will buy some appetizers for those that show up. a RSVP so I know how many to expect is appreciated.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differium et Quaestor
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] About Accensi and Scribae
From:	<3s@hsk-net.de>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:37:48 -0600 (CST)

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Censor Quiritibus S.P.D.

Now, the newly elected Consuls appointed their staff ("cabinet") members, a variety and large number of accensi. This raised some critical voices about that issue.

We should not forget that the Consuls are empowered by the Consitution to appoint their assistants, and that there�s no limit for the numbers of assistants.

I must admit that I was surprised to see the number of assistants appointed, and I don�t see the necessity of such a large staff. Large bureaucracies are normally no guarantee for proper government work, there are enough examples for this. This, btw., doesn�t mean that I think that our consuls won�t work properly.

However, both Consuls act on the ground of the Consitution. They have to manage their staff, which will be not an easy task with such a number of assistants. Caeso Fabius Quintilianus made a fine work as Aedile with a similar large cabinet, and it shouldn�t be forgotten that the employment as assistant is a fine opportunity to collect experiences in administration.

I would like to appeal to all citizens to judge about our consuls by their work and not by their numbers of assistants.

Bene Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Censor, Senator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:09:18 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 5:56:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, haase@konoko.net
writes:

> What other
> Aedile has accomplished so much?
>

Oh I don't know. Gryllus and I did pretty well in the 5 months we were in
charge of the games.
Put on 4 Gladiator Bouts, 1 chariot race, and organized an online campaign.
And there
was two of us. I didn't even have a scribe.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] About the intercessio
From:	"Laureatus Armoricus" <laureatusarmoricus@tiscali.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:12:25 -0000

Salvete,

For what I have read so far Quintus Cassius has a point. Perhaps we could
have expert advice from dedicated lawyers before we can comment on the issue
of minors serving as accensi : Does the oath for accensi really entail
responsability as far as macronational law is concerned ?
Whatever the next course of action and before the Tribunes take side, I
believe it would be beneficial to hear the people concerned (both the
accensi iunores and both consules). On this particular point I agree with
the Honourable Marcus Octavius that the matter could have been at the very
least publicly discussed before an intercessio had to be sought.

Optime Valete

Moravius Laureatus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Cohors Consulis
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:52:26 +0100

Salve L Cornelius Sulla,

<Sulla: She is a Tribune of the Plebs, it would be unethical for a <Tribune
to be in the staff of a Patrician Consul! How could she <protect the rights
of the Plebs if she is under oath to a Patrician <Consul!

Huh? You are confusing me with my gensmate Arnamentia Moravia.

But I was indeed the Moravia who supported C Fabius in his Consul election,
so I am glad that you brought this up now. Rather sooner or later. Ever
since I won the election for Tribunis Plebis, I have been 'cut off'
politically from the C Fabius team specifically because it is unethical if
we maintain contact. My emails (if any) with the ex-campaign team have not
had anything to do with Nova Roma politics at all.

I could never have been in the Cohors Consulis even if only to be a
"Surprise Party Organizer" because I could not have taken their oath: to act
in the 'best interests of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus' because that would not
necessarily reflect the best interests of the people, whom I and my
colleagues represent.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunis Plebis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:36:27 -0000

Salve,

As Senior Plebeian Aedile, empowered to work on behalf of the
plebeain interests as well, I must disagree with this statement
bellow about fellow plebeains to plebeian magistrates.

>
> I also make this petition on the grounds that Titus Arminius
> Genialis, appointed Petitor (Accensus Iunior) in the Officina ad
> Consuetudines et Communicationes in Article III, subsection C is a
> minor and has no legal standing to give consent to make any oath as
> required in Edictum Consulare CFQ III de Iusiurando Apparitorium
(The
> Third Consular Edict Concerning the Oath of Attendants/Apparitores)
>
> As the two previously named individuals are minors and have no
legal
> standing to give consent, and I am duly sworn to protect and defend
> the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I regret to make this
petition.

This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble. They
simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
magistracies.

They can swear everything they can, alas, the new oath of acensus is
done for that.

So I make a public appeal to the fellow plebeain Tribunes to not care
about this misunderstanding.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Plebeain Aedile

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 05:22:47 EST

In a message dated 1/3/03 1:38:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lafaustus@yahoo.com.br writes:

> This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
> positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble. They
> simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
> magistracies.
>

Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age citizens to
be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read your Vedian,
Aedile.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:50:05 +0100

Salve Quintus Cassius Calvus,

Thank you for pointing out that 2 of the members of the Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus Cohors Consulis are under 18 years of age. I support your right
to do so.

I also support the Senior Consul's right "to appoint accensi (personal
assistants), to assist with administative and other taks, as he shall see
fit" as mentioned in IV.2.e. of our Constitution.

As this is my third day of holding the office of Tribunis Plebis, I hesitate
greatly to exercise intercesio on any edict, much less so on one made by our
new Senior Consul.

Our Plebeian Aedile, L. Arminius Faustus wrote:
"This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble."

Of this I am not so sure. My 'understanding' has always been that under 18
citizens could not hold any office in NR whether it be by election or
appointment. This is not to say that I do not think that anyone under age is
not capable or mature enough to hold any position: it is just that these are
our rules and we should not bend them or break them as the mood takes us.

But if it is indeed against our Constitution for someone under 18 to hold an
office in Nova Roma, then I ask Senior Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
without prejudice to amend his edict, removing these 2 young men from his
Cohors Consulis and to appoint 2 other citizens in their place. This would
make any intercessio unnecessary.

That said, I am speaking only for myself and not my fellow Tribunes.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunis Plebis

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:28:05 +0100

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae!

Unbelievable and amazing! This is January 3 and already acerbic and pointless debates appear to be resurfacing. So much for a Happy New Year. While I'm still happily eating the lamb burgers Agricola has been providing me with, please allow me to make a few remarks.

It seems that our good consul, Caeso Fabius, is under attack here because of his tendency to "edictify" everything and to have a massive staff during each tenure of office. Sulla raised a valid concern about inactive staff members; they get fired but they get those century points anyway. However, as they are only scribae, those evil people won't really gain much with it. And guess what? If they are inactive, they won't vote anyway. So the problem actually solves itself.

Secondly. Both in Thule and during his year as Aedilis, Caeso has proven that working with a big staff can be useful. He is being criticised by Quintus Fabius on this. I find it ironic that a man who has done almost nothing during his various tenures of high offices should criticise his ten times superior on that field on the account that a large staff *may* be unworkable. The underlying idea is that Sulla and Q. Fabius are viewing Caeso as a political opponent in the form of an octopus with 21 tentacles in the form of accensi.

Quoting Q. Fabius: "I got by with one scribe, and one accensus." Of course you did, because you didn't really do much. I wonder if your scriba ever got to lay his hands on some concrete work. And Sulla supports Q. Cassius' petition to pronounce intercessio. Why? Why in the gods' name bar an energetic, honest, good-natured and hard-working man from doing his job and proving he'll be doing it fine? Again, the faction centered around Sulla and co see their own petty power interests at stake by the potential threat Caeso is posing for their own positions.

And a note for Q. Cassius. Actually, I don't think you acted from political motivations. At one point in Nova Roma's history, I made a similar mistake and the outcry was enormous. Yes, basically you are right in striving for "openness". But openness is something like honesty. Too much honesty can sometimes be very destructive. If there's someone you're going out with whose breath stinks, you might turn to his best friends or trusted relatives to ask them why or how and what. If you go telling that person "hey, your breath really stinks" this will be more offensive and less effective than trying a more diplomatic solution. Diplomacy, relations and politics are no linear systems.

Q. Fabius on the whole issue of - gasps - minor scribes: "Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age citizens to
be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read your Vedian, Aedile." Yes it does, actually. When I was 17 I was hired as scribe and legatus by my propraetor. And there is an option in the Lex Vedia de Magistratuum Aetate that provides for underage candidates to be accepted as a candidate for a position in Nova Roma.

Then Sulla goes on raising a "concern" about Diana Moravia who could possibly be in league with Caeso as a tribuna. Whoever said that consules and tribuni *need* to be opponents? Besides, I think Sulla's memory is working improperly here. A few years back we had a tribunus named Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar, whose only action was blocking an intercessio against an edict of Sulla's from his colleague, Lucius Sergius. I think Diana Moravia did the right thing. She's not part of his staff and was not part of his campaign team. That shows her good will.

Some people here might do well not to make mountains out of molehills. It's petty and unconstructive.

Valete bene!
M. Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Investment of Imperium
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:41:05 +0000 (GMT)

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus, Lictor Novae Romae and
member of the Comitia Curiata, hereby witness and
acknowledge the
passing of Imperium -- the power to carry out elected
duties and uphold
the laws --to the duly elected Nova Roma Magistrates
for the year 2756
AUC. I acknowledge that this imperium will be held
both by elected and appointed magistrates in the
coming year, both on the State and Provincial level.

May the Gods and the spirit of Roma Antiqua watch over
the Magistrates
of Nova Roma, and grant them the guidance and wisdom
to use their
Imperium for the positive furtherance of Romanitas.
May this sacred bond
bring favor upon our Nation and our Citizens in this
coming year.

Valete,

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Lictor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"William Rogers <wlr107@yahoo.com>" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:40:47 -0000

Well, well, well....it actually took three days for the first
arguement over something fairly insignificant to his the board! WOW!

Personally, while I may agree with the idea of going to the COnsul
first, the LAW has been followed. I personally feel if you have a
PERSONAL question to ask someone...please write to THE INDIVIDUAL
directly.

I am still new here at Nova Roma. We ALL have our own reasons for
being here, our own goals we hope to accomplish here, we are human
beings.

How about a NEW concept this year? WOW! We actually try to FOCUS ON
WHAT IS IMPORTANT, and leave the personal issues behind! WOW! If I
want lies and deciet, all I have to do is cut on my television!

I respect both individuals here, and this is NOT an attack on either
one, I promise. What we need to do is FOCUS on achieving our goals,
and try to be more kind to each other while working toward those
goals!

Publius Tarquitius Rufus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<haase@c...> wrote:
>
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of
Nova Roma.
>
> Certainly; I don't dispute that.
>
> You are within your legal rights to ask the Tribunes to veto
anything
> whatsoever.
>
> While it would have been polite, considerate, and constructive to
> write to the Consul directly and ask him to modify the edict, none
of
> those things are required by the Constitution. Instead, the
Constitution
> permits magistrates to make a public spectable over trivial matters
if
> they see fit.
>
> > That responsiblity includes transparency in following the rule
of law,
> > not through behind the scenes machinations and back room deals.
>
> Machinations? Back room deals?
>
> It is now a "back room deal" to privately question an edict before
> challenging it publically?
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:09:00 -0000

AVETE DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA ET QVINTE CASSI CALVE

> But if it is indeed against our Constitution for someone under 18
to hold an
> office in Nova Roma, then I ask Senior Consul Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus,
> without prejudice to amend his edict, removing these 2 young men
from his
> Cohors Consulis and to appoint 2 other citizens in their place.
This would
> make any intercessio unnecessary.

Against the Constitution? Well, just to be sure I re-read of
constitution and found nothing preventing magistrates from appointing
someone under 18 to the rank of scriba or accensus.
I also re-read the Lex Vedia apparitoria: nothing.
I read the Lex de Magistratuum Aetate (even though I know that
scribae and accensi are apparitores): nothing.

Therefore, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus' Edictum doesn't break any law,
and I see no reason for asking for an intercessio.

If I am wrong, I would ask Quintus Cassius Calvus to quote the
paragraph of the Constitution (or of any other Nova Roman law) he is
referring to.

Thank you.

Respectfully,
BENE VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
Quaestor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath of Office - Quaestor
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:27:33 +0000 (GMT)

Oath of Office.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards, do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and
to act always in the best interests of the people and
the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Decimus Iunius
Silanus - Daniel Edwards swear to honor the Gods and
Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards swear to
uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards swear to
protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards further
swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities
of the office of quaestor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of quaestor and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:29:01 -0000

Salve,

Dearest Senator, Flavius Vedius had a scriba of 17 years!

Yes, I�m saying. You can be employed by the Res Publica, since
nominated (at provincial level too). And I will say more, underage
citizens are actually the soul of that times. Since they got NO
century points, what is the problem? Since the impuberes where
LEGALLY approved to gain citizenship, they have all rights, this says
the Constitution (I translated all). Since I haven�t saw none elected
to a magistracy against the law of ages (like the first
misundertanded election of Constantinus Serapio as quaestor) again,
what is the problem???

(And I�m very envious of Fabius Quintilianus, who has got a so
capable citizen like Arminius Genialis as scriba before me!)

I just want to make everyone know that I HAVEN`T vetoed the appeal of
Cassius Nerva, I just made another appeal, under the Aedilship, to
the fellow tribunes not consider that a valid argument.

Vale,
L. Arminius Fautus
Senior Plebeian Aedile

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/3/03 1:38:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> lafaustus@y... writes:
>
>
> > This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can
have
> > positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble.
They
> > simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
> > magistracies.
> >
>
> Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age
citizens to
> be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read
your Vedian,
> Aedile.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:33:35 +0000 (GMT)

Salve

>I just want to make everyone know that I HAVEN`T
>vetoed the appeal of Cassius Nerva....

Perhaps you mean Cassius Calvus?

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Help with name needed.
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:46:07 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete,

An individual has made an enquiry about the name
'Xavier', it's roots and heritage. Can anyone help,
specifically whether this name was used in ancient
times.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Scriba Censoris.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:59:03 -0500

Robert E. Heinlein

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Help with name needed.
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:58:51 -0600

XAVIER m English, French, Portuguese
Pronounced: ZAY-vee-ur, ZAY-vyur, ig-ZAY-vee-ur
Derived from the Basque place name Etxabier meaning "the new house". Saint Francis Xavier was the Jesuit priest who popularized the name. He was a missionary to India, Japan, China, and other areas in eastern Asia. He is the patron saint of the Orient and missionaries.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Decimus Iunius Silanus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Help with name needed.

Salvete,

An individual has made an enquiry about the name
'Xavier', it's roots and heritage. Can anyone help,
specifically whether this name was used in ancient
times.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Scriba Censoris.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:08:06 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to those concerned. Salvete.

The organization of the Cohors Consulis CFQ is fairly standard for most political departments in the executive sections of government world-wide. The noble consul recruited citizens who he felt shared similar views to his views for the purposes outlined in his plan for the coming year. I cannot speak for my fellows in the cohors but I am glad to be part of something that will forward the development of NR. In regards to credit, all efforts go to the Republic. Vivat Nova Roma!

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:13:53 -0000

Yes! Ops, I�m very sorry!

L. Arminius Faustus

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
<danedwardsuk@y...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> >I just want to make everyone know that I HAVEN`T
> >vetoed the appeal of Cassius Nerva....
>
> Perhaps you mean Cassius Calvus?
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus.
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:14:45 -0500

Salve Dear cousin and congratr on appoint to Cohors Consulis CFQ. What I realy want to know and the MILLIONS of readers of the Eagle are dieing to see is YOUR article on ROMAN cooking. I have titled the Coulmn "Hay Roman, what cooking"

Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:09 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to those concerned. Salvete.

The organization of the Cohors Consulis CFQ is fairly standard for most political departments in the executive sections of government world-wide. The noble consul recruited citizens who he felt shared similar views to his views for the purposes outlined in his plan for the coming year. I cannot speak for my fellows in the cohors but I am glad to be part of something that will forward the development of NR. In regards to credit, all efforts go to the Republic. Vivat Nova Roma!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A personal response to L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:17:31 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to the Illustrious L. Cornelius Sulla Felix. Salve.

I am not serving the Consul and the Republic for points. We serve at the discretion of the Consul and he serves by the will of the People of the Republic. One cannot separate the wheat from the chaff until the labor has begun. May the gods grant you good fortune. Vale.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Thanks and compliments
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:26:23 -0000

Salve, Maior Maximus!

> The year finished, and i am no more the Tribunus
> Plebis.

Faustus: You have my fully support for praetor!

> I want to thank to the Plebs and to Nova Roma for this
> opportunity, and to my former Tribunician Scribe,
> Lucius Arminius Faustus, for their excellent job.
>
> Fauste will continue to be my provincial Scribe, and
> now he is Quaestor, and Aedilis Plebis! My deepest
> congratulations, and may the gods help you in this
> year.

Faustus: Yes... thanks a lot, Arminius Maior, my paterfamilias, a
really PATER in all meanings about my growing on NR.

Sometimes I get on my chair and see that two titles and my belly gets
cold, thinking on the responsabilities and duties. May the goddess
Concordia, who above all I worship on my lararium, Queen Minerva and
Supplier Vulcanus, help me.

When I see the quaestoirship I see the mirror image of the aedilship,
when I face the aedilship I see the speculum of the quaestorship.
Like the two faces of Ianus Pater.

And the future? I�m the only quaestor for the South Hemisfere! We
have a tradition of great games for the aedil. The translations, oh,
my dearest translations, how I miss making it on that hard
professional times!

And a eternal homework, dearest Maior, growing NR on provincial
level. That is the 13th work of Hercules, our work.

I�m fullfilled of glories. Now just the heroic epic of daily silent
alone work waits us, magistrates.

L. Arminius Faustus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 06:31:02 -0800

Ave,

Actually, Accensus do get century points as do scribes based on section IV. A. 9 of the Constitution and the Lex Vedia Centuriatia (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-21-iv.html). So having 26 members of a staff is rewarding them century points. Please go back and review.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...

In a message dated 1/3/03 1:38:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lafaustus@yahoo.com.br writes:

> This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
> positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble. They
> simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
> magistracies.
>

Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age citizens to
be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read your Vedian,
Aedile.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Pax, fellow citizens.
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:45:26 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to M. Octavius Germanicus and Q. Cassius Calvus. Salvete.

Pax, good sirs, pax! M. Octavius Germanicus has correctly pointed out that Q. Cassius Calvus has correctly adhered to the laws and Constitution of the Republic. Correct? The laws of the Republic are part of the glory and beauty of NR just as were the laws of AR. Q. Cassius has acted as his office and his honor required him to do so by the laws as written. De iure versus de facto. Let us praise the magistrate who does his task rather than slight him. Let every citizens support the Republic by good works and the Virtues. May Concordia grant peace and happiness to us all in the new year. Valete.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:53:45 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Corneli,

> Actually, Accensus do get century points as do scribes based on
> section IV. A. 9 of the Constitution and the Lex Vedia Centuriatia
> (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-21-iv.html).
> So having 26 members of a staff is rewarding them century points.

Yes, for the current year, they do get this small reward. The points
evaporate at the end of the year.

For the minors who are scribae, the points are irrelevant, as they
cannot vote and thus are not placed in any century.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective - not
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 06:54:02 -0800

LOL I just gotta say I loved your subject. You are such an outside perspective, M. Octavius.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 3:28 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae!

<Snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] About Accensi and Scribae-To C. Flavius Diocletianus
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:55:26 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to the Illustrious C. Flavius Diocletianus. Salve.

Well said, Conscript Father, very well said.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:00:46 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...

Salve Senator Corneli,

> Actually, Accensus do get century points as do scribes based on
> section IV. A. 9 of the Constitution and the Lex Vedia Centuriatia
> (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-21-iv.html).
> So having 26 members of a staff is rewarding them century points.

Yes, for the current year, they do get this small reward.

Sulla: A small reward, but one that might push up people from one Century Class to another, thus increaing their voting power.

The points
evaporate at the end of the year.

Sulla: Regardless, in hiring 26 people he has just improved his staff's voting power in the centuries.

For the minors who are scribae, the points are irrelevant, as they
cannot vote and thus are not placed in any century.

Sulla: Sure, thats two people. So instead, we have to worry about 24 people instead of 26.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective - not
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:08:34 +0100

Salve mi Sulla,

LOL I just gotta say I loved your subject. You are such an outside perspective, M. Octavius.

MOS: Hmm well... I do have an opinion, of course! But in the current politics of Nova Roma, I am an outsider :o).

Vale bene!
M. Octavius Solaris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Cohors & minors
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 10:08:14 -0500

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to the Illustrus C. Fabius Quintilianus. Salve.

Here in Tennessee, we have legal minors who serve in the state house as interns. Perhaps the accensi iunores should be redesignated as interns (without having to swear an oath) but a part of your household; a fictional guardianship like an uncle unrelated by blood who sees to the practical education of the minor.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Help with name needed.
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:11:37 +0000 (GMT)

Salve,

Thanks for the info. I shall forward to the individual
concerned.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

--- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
wrote:

XAVIER m English, French,
Portuguese 
Pronounced: ZAY-vee-ur, ZAY-vyur, ig-ZAY-vee-ur 
Derived from the Basque place name Etxabier meaning
"the new house". Saint Francis Xavier was
the Jesuit priest who popularized the name. He was a
missionary to India, Japan, China, and other areas in
eastern Asia. He is the patron saint of the Orient and
missionaries. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Law Office of James L. LaSalle 
417 East 13th Street 
Kansas City, Missouri 64106 
(816).471.2111 
(816).510.0072(cell) 
(816).471.8412(Fax) 
The information contained in this e-mail message is
attorney privileged and confidential information
intended only for the use of the individual or entity
named. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, or the employee or agent
responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please immediately notify the
sender by using the contact information in the
"reply to" field above and return the
original message to the sender. Thank you. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Decimus Iunius Silanus 
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:46 AM 
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Help with name needed. 
 
 
Salvete, 
 
An individual has made an enquiry about the
name 
'Xavier', it's roots and heritage. Can anyone
help, 
specifically whether this name was used in
ancient 
times. 
 
Valete 
 
Decimus Iunius Silanus 
Scriba Censoris. 
 

__________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Everything you'll ever need on one web page 
from News and Sport to Email and Music
Charts 
<a
href="http://uk.my.yahoo.com">http://uk.my.yahoo.com</a> 
 
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Groups Sponsor 

ADVERTISEMENT 

 
 
 
 
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to: 
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
 
 
 
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Caeso Fabius' staff
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:34:48 -0500

On Friday, January 3, 2003, at 04:42 AM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

> I must admit that I was surprised to see the number of assistants
> appointed, and I don�t see the necessity of such a large staff.

In an all-volunteer organization, it is usually considered beneficial
to engage the energy and interest of as wide a segment of the
membership as possible. One way to do this is to give them titles and
small, manageable responsibilities. I think this is the approach Caeso
Fabius is taking. One advantage of such an approach is that you have
backup people available to deal with the frequent cases where a small
group ends up becoming overburdened by doing most of the work of the
organization, or where personal circumstances prevent one official from
doing his or her job for a time. Among the large group enlisted by
Caeso Fabius since his election, one person has already had a difficult
situation erupt in his personal life, and assistants had already been
named and acquainted with the work which he had been assigned.

It's an energetic approach and one that I believe has a chance of
working. (If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't have accepted his offer
of an advisory post.)

I also believe that staff positions are an excellent way to get young
people involved and acquainted with the organization's functioning
before they are eligible to run for office. We have had many cases of
people who are willing to offer energy and ideas to NR, but who are too
young to take elected posts. This seems to me to be an ideal solution.
If they are prevented from serving in staff posts, I believe it will
deprive NR of useful resources to deny them the opportunity to serve in
such posts.

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 15:40:12 +0000

Salvete omnes:

In a time when we have 91 active citizens, and 1400 phantom citizens,
we're making a case because of 2 minors who happen to be very active, done
excellent work, and given plenty of dedicated time to NR. Come now,
gentlemen, don't you think that is running counter to NR's interests?

I'll say pray Iuppiter Maximus not to get angry.

Valete

Galerius Peregrinator.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no magistrates
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:43:57 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

On the subject of appointing impuberes I have now re-checked with the
Constitution and some people who ought to know. The result is that my
appointments of two "impuberes" were _not_ illegal or
unconstitutional! Which doesn't come as a surprise to me.

THE CONSTITUTION
I am no lawyer, but I have tried to find anything in the Constitution
that forbids me to appoint "impuberes" as Apparitores. But as they
are _not_ Magistrates (Con. IV a. 9.) they are _not_ "responsible for
the maintenance and conduct of the affairs of state" (IV.), as
magistrates are. I can't see that appointing impuberes to be Accensi
(Apparitores) is illegal at all. Remember that these assistants are
just assisting me, they are not making any decisions at all. I am the
decision-maker here.

USA & SWEDEN
I acted under "good faith" when I appointed these Junior Accensi. If
I had appointed these young men to positions as responsible
Magistrati I would have been wrong, but these are not Magistrati (see
the Constitution), they are Apparitores. They are _not_ to be
compared with board members, but rather with "errand-boys" (still
very intelligent and competent), doing needed work, but with _no_
special authority. There are such "boys" all over Sweden and I think
also in USA (where Nova Roma is registered).

On the other hand I have been on the boards of a couple of national
Youth organisations in Sweden where there sat many under 18, but in
this case these very fine young men are _not_ at all sitting at some
board and don't have any authority at all. I have also got
information that "impuberes" have had high positions in american
(USA) organisations.

As my Junior Accensi do not have any position of authority I saw and
I still see no problem! My appointment wasn't illegal or
unconstitutional at all!
================
FYI:

THE CONSTITUTION OF NOVA ROMA

II. 2. Citizens may apply for Citizenship on behalf of their
children or legal wards (as defined by relevant macronational law)
under the age of 18. Such Citizens shall be known as impuberes.

4. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by those means that
shall be established by law, or may be voluntarily relinquished by
notification of the censors or by public statement before three or
more witnesses. Impuberes may have their Citizenship relinquished on
their behalf by their parent or legal guardian (as defined by
relevant macronational law) by notification of the censors or by
public statement before three or more witnesses.

IV. Magistrates.
Magistrates are the elected and appointed officials responsible for
the maintenance and conduct of the affairs of state. There are two
categories of magistrates: ordinarii (those who are ordinarily
elected) and extraordinarii (those who are only occasionally
appointed or elected). Qualifications necessary to hold these
positions may be enacted by law properly passed by one of the comitia.

IV a. 9.
Apparitores (Attendants). Collectively, the apparitores shall not be
considered magistrates, but rather shall be appointed into various
decuriae (corporations) to fulfill those necessary functions as shall
be assigned to them by law enacted by one of the comitia. They shall
include the l ictores, lictores curiati, scribae, and accensi.

=======================
LEX VEDIA APPARITORIA

(Enacted by dictatorial edictum 7/30/99 with the force and authority of law.)

In accordance with paragraph IV.A.8. of the Constitution of Nova
Roma, the Lex Vedia Apparitoria is hereby enacted to create the
following decuria of apparitores and delineate their functions.

4. Decuria Assensia. The decuria assensia shall consist of assensi
(personal assistants), who shall undertake those administrative and
other functions as shall be assigned to them by the consul who they
are assisting. Members of the decuria assensia shall be appointed by
the consuls.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Quaestor Assignments for MMDCCLVI
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:47:29 +0100

Salvete Candidates for the Praetorship, elected Aediles and Quaestores!

The Consuls will soon assign Quaestores to this year's Aediles. This
is to be done by "mutual agreement" between all concerned according
to the Constitution.

The Consuls have already made an agreement with the following Quaestores:

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus with Sextus Appolonius Scipio as Consular Quaestor
Titus Labienus Fortunatus with Gnaeus Octavius Noricus as Consular Quaestor,

This year we have two complications, both of the Praetores for this
year are still unknown and we need one more Quaestor to be elected.
The three candidates for the two positions as Praetores are Marcus
Arminius Maior, Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus and Gnaeus Salix
Astur. The Senior Consul will soon call for the election of the two
Praetores and one additional Quaestor (first asking for candidates).

Thus, we may not be able to make all of the Quaestor's assignments at
the same time; at least a few of them may be dependent on the outcome
of the 3rd-round Praetor's election. Nevertheless, where there is a
clear agreement between a Quaestor and an Aedile, we will attempt to
make that assignment.

This is a list of the five available Quaestores:

Decimus Iunius Silanus, Lucius Arminius Faustus, Claudius Salix
Davianus, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus and Manius Constantinus Serapio.

This is the list of the elected Aediles:

Curule Aedils: Franciscus Apulus Caesar and Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Plebeian Aedils; Lucius Arminius Faustus and Marcus Scribonius Curio
Britannicus

I hereby ask all newly-elected Quaestores and Aediles to review the
lists of elected magistrates, contacting those who you would like to
serve with, and then to contact me as the Consul holding the fasces
for this month to state your preference as soon as possible.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no magistrates
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:40:09 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> On the subject of appointing impuberes I have now re-checked with
the
> Constitution and some people who ought to know. The result is that
my
> appointments of two "impuberes" were _not_ illegal or
> unconstitutional! Which doesn't come as a surprise to me.
>

Salve Consul Caeso,

Please re-read my petition. It is not the appointment of impuberes
to your cohors which I found to be objectionable. The Constitution
states you may appoint whomever you wish. The petition is based upon
the requirment that apparitores take oaths. As impuberes the
question involves their ability to give consent to take an oath. I
do not believe they can legally give consent to take any oath. I
have no problem with the appointment of impuberes to non-magistarial
positions and consider such appointments to be akin to high-school
internships.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:48:04 -0000

Salve Diana Moravia Aventina,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:
> Salve Quintus Cassius Calvus,

> As this is my third day of holding the office of Tribunis Plebis, I
hesitate
> greatly to exercise intercesio on any edict, much less so on one
made by our
> new Senior Consul.

As well you should. I do ask you re-read my petition. My petition
does not question the Senior Consul's right to appoint whom he sees
fit, nor does it question the legality of impuberes being appointed
as apparitores. What is in question is their legal standing to give
consent to take an oath of office as required by the Senior Consul's
third edict. Neither edict by itself presents a conflict, only when
combining the appointment of impuberes and the requirement to take an
oath of office is there legal conflict and opens Nova Roma to
potential litigation in macronational courts.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:59:05 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Manius Constantinus Serapio
<mcserapio@y...>" <mcserapio@y...> wrote:
> AVETE DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA ET QVINTE CASSI CALVE
> If I am wrong, I would ask Quintus Cassius Calvus to quote the
> paragraph of the Constitution (or of any other Nova Roman law) he
is
> referring to.

Salve Manius Constantinus Serapio,

Forgive me for cutting an pasting what I have already written Diana
Moravia Aventina, but it saves time at this stage.

My petition
does not question the Senior Consul's right to appoint whom he sees
fit, nor does it question the legality of impuberes being appointed
as apparitores. What is in question is their legal standing to give
consent to take an oath of office as required by the Senior Consul's
third edict. Neither edict by itself presents a conflict, only when
combining the appointment of impuberes and the requirement to take an
oath of office is there legal conflict and opens Nova Roma to
potential litigation in macronational courts.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Calvus' petition: request for clarification
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:00:28 +0000 (GMT)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I should like to state from the outset that my
comments in this message are entirely personal and
should not be taken to reflect the view of the Senior
Consul or any member of his staff other than myself.

I think, if I have read his messages correctly, that I
and perhaps others initially misunderstood Cassius
Calvus' petition, so I should like to ask him for
clarification.

As I understand it, his argument is not that the laws
of Nova Roma forbid the appointment of minors as
accensi or scribes (a number of people including the
Senior Consul have shown that this is not the case);
rather, it is that minors are not considered by law to
be competent to swear an oath of the kind that the
Senior Consul's third edict sets out. If this is the
case, then it is clearly a matter of some concern.

However, I am unclear on what field of law we should
be considering. Is it Calvus' argument that under the
internal laws of Nova Roma minors are not legally
competent to take this oath, and that therefore their
oaths are invalid? Or is it that minors are not
legally competent to take this oath under
macronational law?

If it is the former, then I am not certain that there
is any statute or common law in Nova Roma that deals
with the legal competence of minors to swear oaths.

I suspect, however, that it is the latter that
concerns him, and if so what I wonder is this: whose
laws should we be looking at? These two people, each
living in his own country (I don't know which ones),
have taken oaths in and relating to an organization
which is incorporated in the U.S., and on an e-mail
list hosted by an organization which (I imagine) is
incorporated in the U.S. So does Calvus mean that it
is illegal under U.S. law for an organization in the
U.S. to require an oath from a minor in a different
country? Or does he mean that it is illegal in the
countries in which these people live for them to swear
an oath to anyone at all? Or to put it more simply,
who is going to prosecute whom, where, for what?

This seems to me a very complicated issue, as I
suspect most internet law is, and it can only help for
it to be explained as fully as possible.

Many thanks,

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:02:33 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> What is in question is their legal standing to give consent to take an
> oath of office as required by the Senior Consul's third edict.

Minors make oaths, pledges, or agreeements all the time. Americans
beneath the age of consent "pledge allegiance to the flag" every day
in the schools. Many sign "agreements" to not drink and drive, or
not use drugs, or to serve a particular god.

All of these are legally meaningless... but harmless.

"On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my
country and to obey the Scout Law;..."

How is the above, recited by millions of teenagers, any different
from the oaths our appointees have been asked to make?

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:36:56 +0100

Salve Illustrus Quintus Cassius Calvus!

Good, then we agree on the _important_ issue. I may appoint whomever
I wish, even impuberes! I am very glad to see that You also have
caught my point with the appointment of these two.

When it comes to the oath I think boy scouts also swear an oath
themselfs, isn't that right? Are not other oaths taken by young
Americans too?

>Salve Consul Caeso,
>
>Please re-read my petition. It is not the appointment of impuberes
>to your cohors which I found to be objectionable. The Constitution
>states you may appoint whomever you wish. The petition is based upon
>the requirment that apparitores take oaths. As impuberes the
>question involves their ability to give consent to take an oath. I
>do not believe they can legally give consent to take any oath. I
>have no problem with the appointment of impuberes to non-magistarial
>positions and consider such appointments to be akin to high-school
>internships.
>
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] My support of and trust in my Accensi Junior!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 18:33:34 +0100

Salvete Honorable Titus Arminius Genialis and Honorable Spurius
Postumius Tubertus!

I just want to publicly assure You that I selected You as my personal
assistants (Accensi Junior), because of the fact that I know that
both of You are very competent, loyal and dedicated to Nova Roma.

But I will have to stress that these positions are not "Magistrati
(see the Constitution), they are Apparitores. They are _not_ to be
compared with board members, but rather with "errand-boys" (still
very intelligent and competent)". "Errand-boys" still do a _very_
important job in many organisations and You will certainly do more
and better job than some grown ups who never have run any errands at
all! ;-)

As You know I believe that You two will raise up the Cursus Honorum
to at last achieve the Consulship and to be among the future leaders
of Nova Roma! You know that I through my attempts to support young
Nova Romans in the so called "Sodalitas Iuventutis Romanae" (SIR) has
already tried to give young citizens in Nova Roma one platform to
stand on in your development to majority. I will continue to stand at
the side of the our Roman youth even if there are some who don't want
young people involved. Please stand up proud and free as Roman
cuitizens! We need You now and will need You in the future!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no magistrates
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:57:14 -0500

Salve

In the USA and every other county with a BOY SCOUT movement EVERY meeting is started with the boys reciting the SCOUT OATH. I do not see this N.R. oath as anything different from that . A young man or woman is asked ON THEIR HONOR to do this or that. It is not a biding legal contract but a PROMISE to behave in a certain way. Most Nation WILL allow young people to testify in court under OATH before they reach the age of majority.

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen Nova Roma

----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:41 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no magistrates

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> On the subject of appointing impuberes I have now re-checked with
the
> Constitution and some people who ought to know. The result is that
my
> appointments of two "impuberes" were _not_ illegal or
> unconstitutional! Which doesn't come as a surprise to me.
>

Salve Consul Caeso,

Please re-read my petition. It is not the appointment of impuberes
to your cohors which I found to be objectionable. The Constitution
states you may appoint whomever you wish. The petition is based upon
the requirment that apparitores take oaths. As impuberes the
question involves their ability to give consent to take an oath. I
do not believe they can legally give consent to take any oath. I
have no problem with the appointment of impuberes to non-magistarial
positions and consider such appointments to be akin to high-school
internships.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no magistrates
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:05:31 +0100

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> In the USA and every other county with a BOY SCOUT movement
> EVERY meeting is started with the boys reciting the SCOUT OATH.
> I do not see this N.R. oath as anything different from that .
> A young man or woman is asked ON THEIR HONOR to do this or that.
> It is not a biding legal contract but a PROMISE to behave in a
> certain way. Most Nation WILL allow young people to testify in
> court under OATH before they reach the age of majority.

Salve, Tiberi Galeri Pauline.

Just on a tangential note, without any real importance to the subject
whatsoever...not EVERY other country. We don't really do oaths all that
much in Sweden, and our scout movement (Yes, for both boys and girls.)
reflect this in that the closest thing to an oath is a friendly
singalong. Let's see...

"Vi �ro miniorer,
vi kallas �ven piggelin,
vi tr�nar sim och skidor,
och k�kar vitamin.
Vi vill l�ra,
jorden runt och om natur,
vara �rlig,
hj�lpsam aldrig sur."

Yup, I've still got it. :)

No real "oaths", only a statement of desire to learn more about the
earth in general and nature in particular, and to act honestly in help
of our fellow men.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius. (Once swedish equivalent of Eagle scout)

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no magistrates
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:09:34 -0500

Salve you are WRONG once an EAGLE SCOUT always an EAGLE SCOUT, from a LIFE scout

Vale
Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: Kristoffer From
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:07 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Impuberes, _not_ illegal as they are no magistrates

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> In the USA and every other county with a BOY SCOUT movement
> EVERY meeting is started with the boys reciting the SCOUT OATH.
> I do not see this N.R. oath as anything different from that .
> A young man or woman is asked ON THEIR HONOR to do this or that.
> It is not a biding legal contract but a PROMISE to behave in a
> certain way. Most Nation WILL allow young people to testify in
> court under OATH before they reach the age of majority.

Salve, Tiberi Galeri Pauline.

Just on a tangential note, without any real importance to the subject
whatsoever...not EVERY other country. We don't really do oaths all that
much in Sweden, and our scout movement (Yes, for both boys and girls.)
reflect this in that the closest thing to an oath is a friendly
singalong. Let's see...

"Vi �ro miniorer,
vi kallas �ven piggelin,
vi tr�nar sim och skidor,
och k�kar vitamin.
Vi vill l�ra,
jorden runt och om natur,
vara �rlig,
hj�lpsam aldrig sur."

Yup, I've still got it. :)

No real "oaths", only a statement of desire to learn more about the
earth in general and nature in particular, and to act honestly in help
of our fellow men.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius. (Once swedish equivalent of Eagle scout)

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] And Finally, I'll Respond (to Tiberius Galerius)
From:	"Spurius Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:16:56 -0500

Sp. Postumius Tubertus Tiberio Galerio Paulino Salutem Plurimam Dicit

Salve Amice,

I can, if nothing else, testify to a lot in your last message. You stated, "In the USA and every other county with a BOY SCOUT
movement EVERY meeting is started with the boys reciting the SCOUT OATH. I do not see this N.R. oath as anything different from
that . A young man or woman is asked ON THEIR HONOR to do this or that. It is not a biding legal contract but a PROMISE to behave in
a certain way. Most Nation WILL allow young people to testify in court under OATH before they reach the age of majority." In this, I
have done all three of the actions in this. I was, at one time, a Boy Scout. They repititiously began with the Pledge of Alledgance,
the Boy Scout Oath, and the Boy Scout Laws (I still know verbatim two of the three). I have taken oaths within Nova Roma as well.
And finally, I have had to testify before judges and magistrates in America on legal matters (of these times, never did it come to
issue that I am a minor). So I think it is quite obvious that it is acceptable and permissible, if not legal, for minors to swear
oaths for various reasons. On this, at least, I think we agree, though I may be wrong.

Optime Vale,

Postumius Minor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Boy Scout Oath as an example
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 18:14:25 -0000

Salve,

I just asked a fellow co-worker who is active as an adult within the
BSA (Boy Scouts of America) if a minor can be part of the Boy Scouts
without parental permission? Please don't be offended, I quote, "Are
you kidding, we'd get our asses sued off."

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] And Finally, I'll Respond (to Tiberius Galerius)
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:17:43 -0500

Salve Spurious Postumius Tubertus Thanks for the support.

What pray tell did to brilliant people like us ever disagree on?

Vale
Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:13 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] And Finally, I'll Respond (to Tiberius Galerius)

Sp. Postumius Tubertus Tiberio Galerio Paulino Salutem Plurimam Dicit

Salve Amice,

I can, if nothing else, testify to a lot in your last message. You stated, "In the USA and every other county with a BOY SCOUT
movement EVERY meeting is started with the boys reciting the SCOUT OATH. I do not see this N.R. oath as anything different from
that . A young man or woman is asked ON THEIR HONOR to do this or that. It is not a biding legal contract but a PROMISE to behave in
a certain way. Most Nation WILL allow young people to testify in court under OATH before they reach the age of majority." In this, I
have done all three of the actions in this. I was, at one time, a Boy Scout. They repititiously began with the Pledge of Alledgance,
the Boy Scout Oath, and the Boy Scout Laws (I still know verbatim two of the three). I have taken oaths within Nova Roma as well.
And finally, I have had to testify before judges and magistrates in America on legal matters (of these times, never did it come to
issue that I am a minor). So I think it is quite obvious that it is acceptable and permissible, if not legal, for minors to swear
oaths for various reasons. On this, at least, I think we agree, though I may be wrong.

Optime Vale,

Postumius Minor

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Boy Scout Oath as an example
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:23:25 -0500

Salve Quintus Cassias Calves and Happy New Year

That was not the question as I read the post's yes a boy need his parents permission to join but not to take an OATH. A judge cab compel anybody by LAW to testify in court minor or not and the parent will just have to sit still and watch. Besides if a minor is in Nova Roma they are here with their parents or their CONSENT or they would not be allow.

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Boy Scout Oath as an example

Salve,

I just asked a fellow co-worker who is active as an adult within the
BSA (Boy Scouts of America) if a minor can be part of the Boy Scouts
without parental permission? Please don't be offended, I quote, "Are
you kidding, we'd get our asses sued off."

Vale,

Quintus Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:00:32 +0100

Salve Quintus Cassius Calvus,

> My petition does not question the Senior Consul's right to appoint whom
he sees
fit, nor does it question the legality of impuberes being appointed
as apparitores.

Yes, I know-- I am sorry if you thought that I misunderstood your petition!
It was early in the morning for me and I was sort of being bombarded with
emails. My comment about Senior Consul's right to appoint whom he sees fit
was referring to all of the emails that commented on the number of
appointees.

I like F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus' idea, which he stated in his email
below:
"Here in Tennessee, we have legal minors who serve in the state house as
interns. Perhaps the accensi iunores should be redesignated as interns
(without having to swear an oath) but a part of your household; a fictional
guardianship like an uncle unrelated by blood who sees to the practical
education of the minor."

I am hoping that something like the above could be a very good compromise:
no legal oaths for the young men, the Senior Consul gets to keep his team
together. Titles aren't everything in this world: sometimes we can just work
for an organisation because we love it! And the Tribunes won't have to
consider intercessio... Marcus Marcius Rex is on vacation and I would hate
for my colleague Lucius Pompeius Octavianus and I to make any important
decisions without him.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The minor accensi issue
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:06:56 -0000

Salvete omnes.

Q. Cassius Calvus has issued a petition to the tribuni plebis. I was
a tribunus plebis until two days ago, so I though that perhaps my
personal opinion on Cassius Calvus's petition could help our brand
new tribuni in some way.

Let's get down to facts: accensi are not magistrates, and thus are
not bound by the laws governing magistrates. They do not have any
authority at all (no imperium and no ius edicendum), and the
magistrate that has appointed them is the one who is to be held
responsable for their actions. Given that, I think that minors can be
appointed scribae and accensi. Besides, it has been done before, as
someone has pointed out.

Q. Cassius Calvus says that a minor can not consent by the
magisterial oath. That might be true, but the question is: since
accensi are not magistrates, are they required to make a public oath?
The answer is no.

So how can our tribuni handle this issue? If there is any point to
discuss is whether these two young gentlemen can make an oath or not
(they *certainly* can be appointed accensi). If they can make an
oath, then there is no issue at all. If the tribuni decide that they
can not, then the oath is not valid. But that won't stop them being
accensi and working for Nova Roma if the consules so wish, because
they are not required by law to make such an oath.

That is, of course, just my opinion. It is up to our fully invested
tribuni plebis to decide. But, on a side note, I would like to add
that I am very happy to see two fine young gentlemen like Tiberius
Postumius Tubertus and Titus Arminius Genialis willing to work on
Nova Roma's behalf. I hope they are allowed to work *for* us, and I
wish them a happy and fruitful year. May their example be followed by
many, many more young citizens and non-citizens.

CN�SALIX�ASTVR�T�F�A�NEP�TRIB�OVF

CANDIDATVS�PRAETORIVS

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Could anyone tell me....?
From:	URCITANUS <urcitanus@terra.es>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 19:58:46 +0100

I regret to interrupt this endless series of oaths from different new
magistrates to ask a question for any of the wise people around Nova
Roma...
It is about Tatoo in ancient Rome. I always thought that tatoo was
something belonging to slaves, but then I came across that funny little
movie: GLADIATOR. In that film, Maximus shows a tatoo which granted his
belonging to the Army.
Well, is that possible? Were soldiers tatooed? Was it a symbol of
belonging to anyone or to anything? Is there any historical vidence of
tatoo? And the most important question of all: If so, could anyone
describe the designs?
Thank you

antonius adrianus urcitanus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Boy Scout Oath as an example
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:20:54 +0100

Salve,

< Please don't be offended, I quote, "Are you kidding, we'd get our asses
sued off."

I agree with you there.... Oaths like boy scouts and the Pledge of
Allegiance are of a different nature. They are patriotic, which will never
get anyone in trouble with the authorities!
That said, many many groops don't go near anyone under 18, for the simple
reason that there are just way too many potential problems that could arise.
And we have Pagans in NR---lots of them. There is always the fear that
someone's parents or even that one of our governments will scream that
Pagan's are devil worshippers etc enz. I know this from experience: the
Pagan Federation's youth officer was suspended from his job and his name the
headline of many English newspapers when it was learned that in his role as
the PF's Youth Officer, he was teaching minors about Wicca.
Many people are still narrow-minded. And they can be the children or the
parents. Last week a good friend told me that his new girlfriend was 'very
supersticious' and wouldn't meet me because she is afraid of "devil
worshiping Pagans". Me???? She must have me mixed up with one of the
demons on Buffy the Vampire slayer....

Vale,

Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunis Plebis


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath as Accensus Ordinarius
From:	"Lucius Rutilius Minervalis <pjtuloup@yahoo.fr>" <pjtuloup@yahoo.fr>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 20:00:01 -0000

Oath as Accensus Ordinarius

I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup), do hereby
solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus while I
hold this office, except when such action would be illegal or
unconstitutional.

I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup), further swear to
fulfill the obligations and
Responsibilities of the office of Officina Aerarii to the best of my
Abilities while following the Roman virtues and ideals.

I, Lucius Rutilius Minervalis (Pierre-Jean Tuloup), swear to give
faithful service to my
magistrate, and not to divulge any information discussed in
confidence. I understand that I serve solely at the discretion of my
magistrate.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Accensus Ordinarius with all the
privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Ante diem III Nones Ian MMDCCLVI A. U. C. (3nd January 2003)

Lucius Rutilius Minervalis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Could anyone tell me....?
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 15:37:35 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Antonius Adrianus Urcitanus. Salve.

In regards to the tatooing of Roman soldier, Ammianus Marcellanus (4th C. C.E.) mentions that recruits were marked on the hand with a small 'M' for militares. Some scholars have interpreted this as a small burn but other have indicated a tattoo. The Scythians and Sarmatians used multi-colored tattoos down their arms as early as the 4th Century B.C.E. and this practice continued until the time of Attila's Hunnic Empire in the 5th Century C.E. This information comes from Greek and Roman historians as well as archaeological evidence. The Scythian and Sarmatian khurgans (burial vaults) filled with ground water after internment of the bodies. This preserved the bodies in frozen ground water and the tattoos were still vivid when excavated in the 19th & early 20th centuries. I cannot remember the source but Mediterranean sailors from Greece and Ionia also practices tattooing during the Republican period.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Young People
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:44:39 -0500 (EST)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

In answer to some concerns brought forward on this net, I would make the
following comments:

I served for the last two years as a Quaestor to a Praetor, at those
Magistrate's particular request. At no time in those two years was I
given a task to do, or an area to survey. I must suppose then from that
circumstance, that my worth to those Magistrates was negligable.

However, I am bouyed up by the fact that working closely with Senior
Consul Quintillianus, I have already been given several tasks to
complete and full freedom in how I shall complete them. Having spoken
with other appointees of the Senior Consul, I find much the same kind of
utilization, and so, I would ask that perhaps before the Consuls are
criticized for thier actions and appointments, perhaps we should see
what accomplishments come out of these appointments. Certainly the
early indications are much more favorable in this Consulship, than in
the past.

During my Consulship I utilzed several Accsensi, since I wanted a
variety of different ideas from those who saw Nova Roma from a different
basis. However, how many appointees it takesit really determined by
what the Magistare wants to accomplish and how we / she wants to go
about that task. If a Senior Magistrate wants to undertake his
responsibility with one Scribae and one Accensi, I consider that his
business, just as I consider that if a Senior Consul feels that he needs
26 appointees, to do what it is that he intends to do, in the way that
he intends to do it, to the ultimate benefit of Nova Roma, I am puzzled
as to why he should be chastised for it.

In the matter of young people (below the age of 18), I see no problem in
using these people as they are often eager, energetic, willing to
please, and often have some very good ideas. When I was seventeen, I
recieved a special certificate from the Local Coast Guard Commander in
my hometown to command a 26 foot pulling boat under oars or sail in the
Columbia River. As a result of that certificate issuence, my "crew"
undertook to "sound" the areas of the Columbia River secondary channel
at Portland, Ore, in the vicinity of Sand Island. Those "soundings" and
related information were printed in the official "Notice To Mariners"
for that period, and that experience led to my early rating
determination as a Naval Quartermaster. In addition, several colleagues
and myself served as Senior Crew Leaders, and Jr. Asst. Scoutmasters in
the Boy Scouts of America, in which we took charge of yonger boys, and
various administrative elements of the Boy Scout Troop, and Sea Explorer
Ship both in the local weekly meetings and in the regular monthly
outdoors activities, teaching outdoor skills, scouting policy and the
meaning of the Scout Oath and Law. Later when I served as a Skipper of
a Sea Explorer Ship (BSA), The person who was in charge of a winning
pulling crew, was my young female Senior Crew Leader, who commanded both
the pulling crew, and the competitive teams that the ship fielded in the
annual Sea Explorer Competitions at the Coast Guard Base in San
Francisco Bay, and previous to that, at the Naval Reserve Training
Center in Portland Oregon. When I was sixteen I captained a winning
Marlinspike Team, under the guidance of a 17 year-old Senior Crew
Leader. These are just a very few of the examples of young people
taking on and performing useful and necessary tasks under the cognizance
of adults in an international organization. Virtually tens of thousands
of young men and women in the United States and all over the free world,
are involved and tasked to complete significant applications for the
immediate benefit of thier unit and the ultimate benefit of a free and
honorable society. I have been privaledged to meet, and share good
times with Scouts from 17 different countries, and I have never met a
Scout from a foriegn country that I did not immediately like and
respect. True, the uniforms were different, but I found in these young
people, principles very similar to my own which were strongly at work.

The Consuls have been elected this year by the Citizens of Nova Roma,
and they have made known to Nova Roma, a list of concerns that they will
entertain during the coming year. Some of these items of concern will
be dfficult to resolve to everyone's satisfaction, as we have seen in
the past year. I would ask that rather than taking umbrage with them
for some idea of political advantage, that we assist them in every way,
in order to lay some of our stated concerns to rest in the immediate
future.

I would comment that the very few days in which the Consular Team has
served in this New Year, is really not sufficient time to judge the
effectiveness of the actions of this team and it's appointees to date.
I would ask for just a short period of patience, in order to see what
will come of this newly elected group.

In the matter of the desire of Citizens to serve in the administration
of Nova Roma, as a former Naval Officer and Volunteer Boy Scout Leader
of 20+ years, I am fully aware that the best way to determine if someone
is eager to serve, is to appoint them to a position, give them a task
and see if it works out. This procedure also has a unique additional
advantage in giving the appointed individual the sense that he / she is
needed and wanted in this micronation, and it provides a way for the
citizens to utilize thier particular skills and gifts for the benefit of
Nova Roma. Personally, I see nothing wrong in this attitude or
procedure. True there are some who for a variety of reasons will not
follow through, these people can either be given another task more
suited to thier available attributes, time, and desires, or released
with a thank you. I have made some appointments certainly which did not
work out, but the majority of them have worked out very well in spite of
past severe criticisms of my methodology and these same people have
served Nova Roma well and continue to serve her in the present day.

In the Historical Societies to which I belong, 100% of the members are
active in some aspect of the program agreed upon in addition to thier
vote. Committee Heads, reenactors, historical reconstruction, parades,
events, organizations and participation, food preparation, music and
reading presentation, model construction, and speaker arrangement, all
are areas of participaton, and virtually every member of thes clubs are
active in some instance according to thier abilities. Some of these
organizations number in the hundreds and put on two or three historical
events every year, participating in as many more. I guess that I don't
understand the emphasis on percentage of citizens to the percentage of
appointees, but in the organizations to which I belong, everyone who
wants to have a piece of the action is invited to take some position,
and for my part, were it possible, I would be pleased if every single
citizen of Nova Roma were active in some aspect of this micronation, as
an officer or worker in a Sodalitas, Academia, Provincial / Regio
activities, get-togethers, events, research. etc. I see nothig wrong
with 100% participation, and I frankly hope that I will live to see the
day when each and every citizen of Nova Roma will be actvely involved
herein.

Lastly, but certainly not in the least, our new Consuls have proven
themselves to be wise organizers, and hard workers throughout thier
tenure in Nova Roma, and both are Senators which indicates a great deal
of past effort on thier part for Nova Roma. Based on the above ideas, I
would certainly wish to give them every possible freedom and assistance
in thier new Consular Roles, in order to take advantage of thier proven
ability, thier proven desire to work in agreement with each other, and
thier obvious desire to provide each and every citizen of NR a place to
utilize their attributes to make Nova Roma stronger and more viable.

In closing this message, I would ask that we give the Consuls and
Magistrates elected for this year, by you the Citizens of Nova Roma,
some support in the way that they wish to do things, and see if thier
ideas bear fruit. For those who are normally silent on this net, I
would encourage you to make your comments and ideas known of how you
feel about these questions, in order that all might get a better idea of
what you the Citizens of Nova Roma desire. After all, it is the
Citizens of Nova Roma who call the tune as to which direction Nova Roma
shall direct her course. It is the task of the Senior Magistrates to
mind the helm to keep the ship of state on this steady course, and the
appointed / elected Junior Magistrates to keep a smooth flow of power to
the oars that propel this great ship. The Senate acts as the lookout to
deal with concerns as they approach over the horizon, and from thier
experience prepare and provide ideas to be determined by those who
provide the course of Nova Roma and the changes to that course as
necessary.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Could anyone tell me....?
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 15:46:31 EST

In a message dated 1/3/03 11:10:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
urcitanus@terra.es writes:

> I always thought that tatoo was
> something belonging to slaves, but then I came across that funny little
> movie: GLADIATOR. In that film, Maximus shows a tatoo which granted his
> belonging to the Army.
> Well, is that possible? Were soldiers tatooed? Was it a symbol of
> belonging to anyone or to anything? Is there any historical vidence of
> tatoo? And the most important question of all: If so, could anyone
> describe the designs?
> Thank you
>
>

Italian Romans were never tattooed during the Principate. It was considered
a barbarian custom.
Symmachiarii and Feoderati likely had tatoos but these were not native Roman
units, usually allies or mercenaries
Veg. tells that deserters were tattooed or branded during the Dominate.
The scene you quote was incorrect. I wrote several letters to Scott and
Franzoni protesting the use, however the disfigurement of the tattoo was
needed by the screenwriter to show the character's strong resolve and
revulsion against anything Roman. (I.E., the scene was BS)
Hope this helps.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Vesting of Imperium
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 16:10:27 -0500 (EST)

I, Marcus Minucius Audens, Lictor of Nova Roma, do hereby witness and
acknowledge the passing of Imperium to the duly elected and appointed
Nova Roma and Provincial Magistrates for the year 2003.

I cover my head and stand with head bowed, asking that those who worship
the Gods of Rome, will recieve thier mark of approval, and I ask from my
own beliefs a blessing upon those who serve this micronation.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:48:50 +0100

Salve Solaris,

>MOS: The underlying idea is that Sulla and Q. Fabius are viewing Caeso as a
political opponent < in the >form of an octopus with 21 tentacles in the
form of accensi.

>MOS: Hmm well... I do have an opinion, of course! But in the current
politics of Nova Roma, I am an outsider :o).

I think that most people know that these 3 are political opponents. As far
as tentacles go, I think that you are not looking at it from an 'outsider's
view' as you claim. If you did, you may see it as I do, since being elected
as Tribune seems to force one into an 'outside looking in' position. :

Of the 25 new accensi, some of them also hold elected positions and have
appointed assistants of their own, which makes the outer circle of the
Cohors closer to 35 (which includes citizens who swear to act in the best
interests of the elected magistrate, who in turn has sworn to act in the
best interests of the Senior Consul). Since we have maybe 50 very active
citizens on this list, this makes the outer circle of the Cohors Consulis
the majority.

My concern is that citizens will be afraid to disagree with one of the
Cohors Consulis, (a public 'alliance' as opposed to 'secret' alliances that
citizens here often insinuate about) because they are worried about making
enemies of 35 citizens at once or being virtually 'ganged up on'. The
members of the Cohors Consulis are fine well mannered people and I consider
many of them to be good friends, in NR and out. But I am still worried that
such a large Cohors Consulis will discourage citizens from speaking their
minds. This I say as a Tribune who wants to hear the opinion of all
citizen's and not just the loudest voices.

> If there's someone you're going out with whose breath stinks, you might
turn to his best friends or trusted relatives to ask them why or how and
what. If you go telling that person "hey, your breath really stinks" this
will be more offensive and less effective than trying a more diplomatic
solution.

LOL!! Certainly a big problem in Belgium where the average person brushes
their teeth less than once per day. But most times neither solution works:
better to get a new girlfriend with proper oral hygiene!

Vale,

Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunis Plebis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Boy Scout Oath as an example
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 15:56:55 -0600

Salvete Quinte Cassi Quiritesque

> I just asked a fellow co-worker who is active as an adult within the
> BSA (Boy Scouts of America) if a minor can be part of the Boy Scouts
> without parental permission? Please don't be offended, I quote, "Are
> you kidding, we'd get our asses sued off."

Likewise, minors are not allowed to join Nova Roma without parental
permission. You're conflating two issues here, the swearing of an oath
and the joining of an organization. The Boy Scout oath is only valid
within the context of that organization, and is not a binding contract
in the eyes of the US legal system. This is the crux of the issue at
hand: whether or not the apparitores' oath is a binding contract.

It's fairly obvious that it doesn't qualify as one outside the context
of Nova Roma. To abuse the example at hand even further, Boy Scouts
aren't going to be sued by the BSA for being less than mentally awake or
morally strong. Only in religious discrimination suits (exempli gratia:
Mormons are forbidden from swearing oaths) and other such actions in
which a person's status is a minor is unlikely to play much of a role,
is Nova Roma in danger from Her various oaths. There is no perfect
defense from this kind of thing, though we've got plenty of leg to stand
on should such a suit ever get to court--especially as minors must have
parental permission to acquire civitas.

So, the main questions are:
I. Does the oath represent a binding contract within Nova Roma?
II. Are impuberes capable of swearing such oaths?

The first question can be answered either way, depending upon which
arguments one accepts. For my part, since no specific obligation (in
the technical sense; i.e. obligatio) is specified by the oath, it seems
to me to be similar to the oaths sworn before a magistrate by parties in
legal actions that they were acting in good faith (called,
unsurprisingly, iusiuranda). This isn't exactly a binding contract.

However, in answer to question II, I must note that impuberes could
*not* swear such oaths in ancient Roma. Instead, they needed a /tutor/
to exercise /auctoritas/ on their behalf. That is, the tutor, if he
thought the oath was not to the detriment of the minor, would swear the
oath on behalf of the impubes. Usually, an impubes' tutor would be his
or her paterfamilias. If the paterfamilias couldn't act as a tutor for
some reason, then the impubes' closest adult male relative would fulfill
the role.

In Nova Roma, no law specifically prevents them from doing so, with one
rather soft exception. The last two sentences of the preamble of the
constitution say, "As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic
and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical
and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic.
The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon
those of ancient Rome." Indeed, as it is possible for the Senate to
allow a minor to assume a magistracy, and magistracies require an oath,
it seems that Nova Roman law leans toward allowing impuberes to swear oaths.

Therefore, it seems to me that there is no legal or constitutional
reason to veto my collega's edictum (note, though, that it is the
opinion of the tribuni plebis that matters most in this). However, it
does seem that it would be best for some adult civis to act as a tutor
for the two minor accensi in the swearing of the oath--preferably their
respective pater or mater familias if possible.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Quotation source?
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 22:25:56 +0000 (GMT)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Consul T. Labienus Fortunatus
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

As I was sitting eagerly awaiting Cassius Calvus'
clarification of who could prosecute whom for what
where, it entered my mind to wonder about the source
of your signature quotation, "Since death alone is
certain and the time of death uncertain, what should I
do?"

I put the question to a search engine and the results,
all sites quoting it second-hand, seem to indicate
that it's from a modern Buddhist book by someone named
Batchelor. Is this correct? The reason for my doubt is
that it sounds very Chinese in formulation, like
Confucius or Ssu-ma Ch'ien, though they would perhaps
have said the last phrase twice for effect.

I hope nobody minds my posting this to the main list
rather than privately - I thought others might be
interested, and might also appreciate a distraction
from oaths and their legal ramifications.

Incidentally, you may be interested to know that sixth
and seventh of the top ten results the search engine
gave me were quotations from yourself!

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 23:54:05 +0100

Salve Diana!
<< I think that most people know that these 3 are political opponents. As far
as tentacles go, I think that you are not looking at it from an 'outsider's
view' as you claim. If you did, you may see it as I do, since being elected
as Tribune seems to force one into an 'outside looking in' position. >>

MOS: I think I'm being a little misunderstood as to the definition of "outside". As "outside" I mean that right now I am outside every political alliance, public or secretive, and currently not occupying a politically important or influential position. As said before, I do have my opinion, but that's a different matter.

<< Of the 25 new accensi, some of them also hold elected positions and have
appointed assistants of their own, which makes the outer circle of the
Cohors closer to 35 (which includes citizens who swear to act in the best
interests of the elected magistrate, who in turn has sworn to act in the
best interests of the Senior Consul). Since we have maybe 50 very active
citizens on this list, this makes the outer circle of the Cohors Consulis
the majority.

My concern is that citizens will be afraid to disagree with one of the
Cohors Consulis, (a public 'alliance' as opposed to 'secret' alliances that
citizens here often insinuate about) because they are worried about making
enemies of 35 citizens at once or being virtually 'ganged up on'. The
members of the Cohors Consulis are fine well mannered people and I consider
many of them to be good friends, in NR and out. But I am still worried that
such a large Cohors Consulis will discourage citizens from speaking their
minds. This I say as a Tribune who wants to hear the opinion of all
citizen's and not just the loudest voices. >>

MOS: On the contrary, I know from personal experience that the feeling of being cornered will only draw more people into the arena. What would people have to fear? Let Caeso and his gargantuan administration prove how they handle debates and criticism. Should they employ machinations that run countrary to the letter of law, or worse, spirit of freedom of opinion, I will be among the first to criticise them (hence, "outsider"). I have enough personal trust in the abilities and capabilities of Caeso and the people he's surrounding himself with that everything will run fine.

Also think of the fact that the people in his staff have not been born without critical facilities. We have both personally met Saturninus, Scipio and Serapio. I can't imagine that these people would tolerate corruption. As I've said before: let's see how everything works. But of course it's your duty to observe more closely and attentively, and I can only admire that. I might do the same as you, in your position.

<< LOL!! Certainly a big problem in Belgium where the average person brushes
their teeth less than once per day. But most times neither solution works:
better to get a new girlfriend with proper oral hygiene! >>

MOS: I wasn't speaking from personal experience, in case you were wondering :o). I didn't know that oral hygiene was that big an issue here in Belgium... Perhaps it is. Well, you *do* have an outsider's perspective here in our country, and this can be refreshing! ;o).

Vale bene!
M. Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quotation source?
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 16:56:55 -0600

Salve Aule Apolloni si vales valeo

> As I was sitting eagerly awaiting Cassius Calvus'
> clarification of who could prosecute whom for what
> where, it entered my mind to wonder about the source
> of your signature quotation, "Since death alone is
> certain and the time of death uncertain, what should I
> do?"

I got it third-hand myself. A poster to the Stoics Yahoo list, who is
also a fan of Stephen Batchelor's brand of agnostic Buddhism, used it in
a message once. It seemed to be such a nicely Stoic statement that I
borrowed it. (I am a practicing Stoic.) It is, to my knowledge,
attributed by Batchelor to an anonymous Tibetan monk. I've been meaning
to add the citation to my .sig file for a while now, but just haven't
gotten 'round to it.

> The reason for my doubt is that it sounds very Chinese in formulation,
> like Confucius or Ssu-ma Ch'ien, though they would perhaps have said
> the last phrase twice for effect.

Yes. It actually struck me as being a rather universal sentiment, and
the line made me think of Kung Fu Tse as well. Of course, the structure
could very well be an invention of the translator.

> I hope nobody minds my posting this to the main list
> rather than privately - I thought others might be
> interested, and might also appreciate a distraction
> from oaths and their legal ramifications.

I know I do. I greatly enjoy comparative philosophy, but get very
little time to indulge in its study these days.

> Incidentally, you may be interested to know that sixth
> and seventh of the top ten results the search engine
> gave me were quotations from yourself!

LOL My fifteen minutes, I suppose.

Vale optime
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Tribune LPO comments on the request of intercessio
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 20:18:24 -0300

Ex officio tribuni plebis Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Salvete omnes qurites.
Regarding Q. Cassius Calvus' petition to exercisse intercessio Edictum Consulare CFQ II de Nominationibus in Cohorte Consulis CFQ (The Second Consular edict CFQ II on the appointments in the Cohors
Consulis CFQ), I must express that intercessio must be avoided as much as possible. It should be used only when no alternative is left. Otherwise it would lead to abuse of power.
In second place solid arguments should be given for a request of intercessio. In this case, instead, they seem to be just hypothetical.
Q. Cassius Calvus wrote : "... It is my duty to protect the Senate and People of Nova Roma from
potential litigation in macronational courts of law. Requiring
oaths and appointment of minors to positions of Apparitores as
defined in the Constitution of Nova Roma Article IV, section 9.
leaves Nova Roma vulnerable to potential litigation in macronational
courts of law... "
I consider a hypothetical argument like this one is not enough to exercise intercessio.Thus, I consider his request too excesive.
Besides, apparitores are asistants to magistrates. So these last ones are responsibles, not the first ones.Responsibility cannot be delegated. So I do not think that minors taking an oath as apparitores would ever arise any litigation.
I do not have a single piece of objective information to exercise intercessio. I cannot exercise it based only on hypothetical reasoning.
By the way, the text of oath for apparitores have nothing wrong, at least in my point of view. So I don't think Q.Cassius Calvus' arguments would ever become true.
Given the reasons above I cannot accept Q. Cassius Calvus' request

Scribebam Bonari� a.d. III Non. Ian. MMDCCLVI A.V.C. (January the third 2756 a.u.c.)

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Senator
Tribunus Plebis
Dominus Factionis Veneta
Propraetor provincialis Argentinae
http://argentina.novaroma.org
http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_Argentina

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