Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Patricians Out
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:47:13 -0600

Salvete Aule Apolloni omnesque

> I also like Senator Drusus' suggested solution [of having patricians
> be allowed to join, but not post to, the Comitia Plebis Tributa
> list.]

As do I. It is an excellent suggestion, well in keeping with the spirit
of ancient practice.

> Now, these exact same points have been made in the past regarding
> the Senate. It, too, is an important political body which needs to
> deliberate without interference. It, too, was historically open to
> at least a few spectators, except possibly in some circumstances.
> Is it not desirable in the interests of openness that it, too,
> should be so in Nova Roma?

I don't think so, for the same reason that I agree with opening the
Concilium Plebis to anyone who wishes to spectate--namely, concordance
with the spirit of ancient practice.

> The three strongest arguments I've heard against this idea are that
> it would be detrimental to the dignity of the Senate as a whole and
> possibly of its individual members; that it would encourage
> speechifying and public performance; and that the Senate might at some
> times have to debate matters of sensitivity which would be better kept
> private.

I would add a fourth reason. In antiquity, the Senate was a relatively
private body which was only open to a few hundred people. Its
deliberations were only made public in digest form, when made public at all.

The comitia, however, were public in nature and intent. They were, and
are, representative of the democratic element in the mixed Roman
government. Therefore, anything that happens before one of the trina
comitia, whether a vote on a lex or trial or an election, ought to be as
public as possible.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Patricians Out
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:54:46 EST

In a message dated 1/27/03 3:50:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cordus@strategikon.org writes:

> . It might
> be argued that the Senate is more important than the
> Plebeian Assembly, and that it discusses more serious
> and sensitive matters. I would make two responses:
> first, the ultimate sovereignty in Nova Roma rests
> with the Assemblies, because these together are the
> legislative authorities, and it would hardly be
> appropriate to regard one of the Assemblies as less
> important that the Senate; and second, if the Senate
> is an important body and discusses important issues,
> surely all the more reason for its proceedings to be
> more open.
>

Apollonius,

Why? Any argument made to support or dis a lex put before the comitia will
be viewed by the voters, before they vote. Senate transparency is not going
to change that.
As far as the day to day running of NR is concerned, is every gathering of
the MPs televised? Here in the US we have CSPAN, but only selected events
are shown, meetings of the JCS for example are not and the viewership is lees
than 5%.
Next, the reasons given being not persuasive enough for you, I'd suggest you
enter the honorum and get your Senate seat. Then perhaps you will
understand.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Greetings and belated introduction
From:	"Greg Rothenberger <gregor59@earthlink.net>" <gregor59@earthlink.net>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:57:08 -0000

Hello,

I joined Nova Roma some time ago, but due to various personal
constraints was never able to meet any other citizens in my area. I
hope to be able to change that now.

About me: I'm very much interested in seeing Nova Roma increase while
remaining true to its republican ideals. Imperial Rome is so much
more popular in the public view that I tend to be afraid it might
influence NR. I also am interested in music and poetry. I hope to
learn Latin someday well enough to use it conversationally, but am
not anywhere near that point yet. Professionally, I work two jobs:
one for our local public library in computer/internet support, and
another for a national retail chain doing film processing and photo
development. If anyone can see how those might fit in with the needs
of NR, I would be glad to offer my services. I live in the
metropolitan Louisville, Kentucky (USA) area, on the Indiana side of
the river.

Anyway, I would like to suggest some kind of get-together for Nova
Romans in this area. I'd be glad to coordinate it, so I'll throw out
for discussion Cherokee Park in Louisville as a location, and the
Saturday after the Spring equinox as a date. That would be March 22d,
2003. I hope to hear from others who would be interested in something
like that, and we'll go from there.

Thanks,

M. Stellatinus Gregorius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:04:30 -0600

Giving status and privilege to a few simply because they were "first" is ludicrous. Such classifications do no good. It was the source of much bloodshed, civil war, and destruction during our forefathers' time.

What if all the plebs just got up and left Nova Roma? What would Nova Roma be then?

Thats right. Nothing.

GBA

In a message dated 1/27/03 12:40:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com writes:

> The Patrician title should be strictly applied to the members of the
> Senate alone. That is, to be a patrician you'd have to earn it and now
> I'll
> run for cover.
>
> Gaius Galerius Peregrinator

I disagree.
Those gens who took part in the formation of NR, should be honored, and
Patrician status is the way that is done.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Patricians Out
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:43:28 -0800 (PST)

--- Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org> wrote:
> Salvete Aule Apolloni omnesque

SNIP
>
> > The three strongest arguments I've heard against
> this idea are that
> > it would be detrimental to the dignity of the
> Senate as a whole and
> > possibly of its individual members; that it would
> encourage
> > speechifying and public performance; and that the
> Senate might at some
> > times have to debate matters of sensitivity which
> would be better kept
> > private.
>
> I would add a fourth reason. In antiquity, the
> Senate was a relatively
> private body which was only open to a few hundred
> people. Its
> deliberations were only made public in digest form,
> when made public at all.
>
There is a Fifth reason. The Senate is legaly the
Board of Directors of a Non Profit Corparation, and it
has to discuss Macronational legal matters from time
to time. Discussions regarding the Corparations legal
obligations are best kept as private as possible.

This side of the Senate's business can't be ignored no
matter what historic reasons might be found for a more
open Senate, or which modern ideas of open government
some citizens may subscribe to.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Patricians Out
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:50:16 -0500

Salve ROMANS

Speaking as a Plebian, I also think this is a great ideal and in keeping with tradition.

Please let them listen in, it would be to our mutual benefit.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Fortunatus
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 9:38 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Patricians Out

Salvete Aule Apolloni omnesque

> I also like Senator Drusus' suggested solution [of having patricians
> be allowed to join, but not post to, the Comitia Plebis Tributa
> list.]

As do I. It is an excellent suggestion, well in keeping with the spirit
of ancient practice.

> Now, these exact same points have been made in the past regarding
> the Senate. It, too, is an important political body which needs to
> deliberate without interference. It, too, was historically open to
> at least a few spectators, except possibly in some circumstances.
> Is it not desirable in the interests of openness that it, too,
> should be so in Nova Roma?

I don't think so, for the same reason that I agree with opening the
Concilium Plebis to anyone who wishes to spectate--namely, concordance
with the spirit of ancient practice.

> The three strongest arguments I've heard against this idea are that
> it would be detrimental to the dignity of the Senate as a whole and
> possibly of its individual members; that it would encourage
> speechifying and public performance; and that the Senate might at some
> times have to debate matters of sensitivity which would be better kept
> private.

I would add a fourth reason. In antiquity, the Senate was a relatively
private body which was only open to a few hundred people. Its
deliberations were only made public in digest form, when made public at all.

The comitia, however, were public in nature and intent. They were, and
are, representative of the democratic element in the mixed Roman
government. Therefore, anything that happens before one of the trina
comitia, whether a vote on a lex or trial or an election, ought to be as
public as possible.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Greetings and belated introduction
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:56:11 -0500

Salve M. Stellatinus Gregorius and Welcome.

If you have the time and the interest I have a proposition for you. I am the Editor of the Eagle, our Nova Roma newsletter. Do you have any interest in writing for Nova Roma's hometown paper? If you do drop me a line and we can "talk".

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum
Quaestor et Cohors Aedilis GnEm
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Rothenberger
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 9:23 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Greetings and belated introduction

Hello,

I joined Nova Roma some time ago, but due to various personal
constraints was never able to meet any other citizens in my area. I
hope to be able to change that now.

About me: I'm very much interested in seeing Nova Roma increase while
remaining true to its republican ideals. Imperial Rome is so much
more popular in the public view that I tend to be afraid it might
influence NR. I also am interested in music and poetry. I hope to
learn Latin someday well enough to use it conversationally, but am
not anywhere near that point yet. Professionally, I work two jobs:
one for our local public library in computer/internet support, and
another for a national retail chain doing film processing and photo
development. If anyone can see how those might fit in with the needs
of NR, I would be glad to offer my services. I live in the
metropolitan Louisville, Kentucky (USA) area, on the Indiana side of
the river.

Anyway, I would like to suggest some kind of get-together for Nova
Romans in this area. I'd be glad to coordinate it, so I'll throw out
for discussion Cherokee Park in Louisville as a location, and the
Saturday after the Spring equinox as a date. That would be March 22d,
2003. I hope to hear from others who would be interested in something
like that, and we'll go from there.

Thanks,

M. Stellatinus Gregorius

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Last Call for February Eagle
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:01:19 -0500

Salve Romans

If you have anything for the Feb. Eagle please send it in Now.

Thanks

Tiberius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Hello. I'm new in the process of joining Nova Roma
From:	"biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>" <biojournalism@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 04:32:07 -0000

http://reminiscencemedia.tripod.com/

I'm new in the process of joining. My Latin name is Octavia.
I write detective novels set in ancient Rome.
I also have a Web site for other novels I've written at
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html. I will be putting up a free
seminar/course/lectures etc. on my site on writing detective novels
for family reading set in ancient Rome. My goal is to sharpen my
research in authentic foods, names of clothing and furniture, names
for architecture within an ancient Roman villa such as the atrium,
vestibule, etc. I want to find out more about the plumbing used in
homes such as heated stones under indoor swimming pools, and how
many square feet were the homes of most patricians so I can include
authentic facts in my novel. Thanks. My book cover will be
illustrated as authentically as possible by myself. And I'll include
foods, especially recipes for cooked vegetables and cakes also the
type of fabric used in women's clothing of the first families.
Thanks.

Octavia.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Hello. I'm new in the process of joining Nova Roma
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:24:38 -0600

Ave Octavia!

We would be glad to help you. You have struck out on a new and exciting path in your life! Roman detective novels are becoming very popular.

You need to have a pimp in your stories. Readers love pimps. And lawyers. Who doesn't love lawyers? If you're gonna have detectives, you've GOT to have lawyers! Why else all the snoopin' around?

And you need a drunk. Or you can make one of the characters a drunk, maybe even one of the main characters a drunk, like a Lawrence Block or Jimmy Breslin novel. Drinking was very popular in Roman times, as it is today. Many readers, especially those in Nova Roma, will connect on many levels with a drunk protagonist.

I hope this helps.

Vale

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
From: biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:32 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Hello. I'm new in the process of joining Nova Roma

http://reminiscencemedia.tripod.com/

I'm new in the process of joining. My Latin name is Octavia.
I write detective novels set in ancient Rome.
I also have a Web site for other novels I've written at
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html. I will be putting up a free
seminar/course/lectures etc. on my site on writing detective novels
for family reading set in ancient Rome. My goal is to sharpen my
research in authentic foods, names of clothing and furniture, names
for architecture within an ancient Roman villa such as the atrium,
vestibule, etc. I want to find out more about the plumbing used in
homes such as heated stones under indoor swimming pools, and how
many square feet were the homes of most patricians so I can include
authentic facts in my novel. Thanks. My book cover will be
illustrated as authentically as possible by myself. And I'll include
foods, especially recipes for cooked vegetables and cakes also the
type of fabric used in women's clothing of the first families.
Thanks.

Octavia.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 03:16:31 EST

In a message dated 1/27/03 7:06:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> Giving status and privilege to a few simply because they were "first" is
> ludicrous. Such classifications do no good. It was the source of much
> bloodshed, civil war, and destruction during our forefathers' time.
>
> What if all the plebs just got up and left Nova Roma? What would Nova Roma
> be then?

Without these first 30 gens' time, effort and commitment there is no NR to
grow and receive plebeians. Have you thought of that?
The Plebs did attempt to leave and start their own city in the 500s until
they realized that they needed the Pats, to provide protection, since the
best armed citizens were also the richest.
If the Plebs all left, I should imagine the Patricians would continue to keep
the flame to Vesta lit, the Senate in session, and Nova Roma in existance,
until new prospective citizens found her.
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:19:07 -0000

Salve, dearest consular!

Yes, I sure agree, but even the ancient patricians realized that
without the plebs, the capacity of the roman army would decrease, and
the Republic easy would be prey of another city. There would me much
less social unrest and peace, but at costs of losing the Imperium and
hegemony. That is why the patricians wisely �gave the ring to keep
the fingers� allowing the tribunate.

Really the plebs dind�t understand the Lar Religion of the
patricians, and really haven�t cared about it (F. Coulanges), they
simple would change of city and worship Vesta of some other place.
There wasn�t religious bounds attaching the plebs to some city, at
least on the beggining.

Maybe there would be new imigration, but the patricians always had
the will to have clients, not independent plebs on the city. The
clients were bound to the lar of the patron, they were not �people
without religion� how the plebeians were used to be called (not that
the plebeians didn�t worshipp, but they didn�t have a Familiar Lar
and known Ancestors).

Machiavelli on the �Discourse about Titus Livius Books� showed
wonderfully this, comparing Sparta and Rome, how Sparta has lost its
hegemony by reducing the growing of the city and its armies, on
opposition of Rome, who brought the glory at costs of social unrest.

The growing of the Plebs was the path to the glory of Rome.

> If the Plebs all left, I should imagine the Patricians would
continue to keep
> the flame to Vesta lit, the Senate in session, and Nova Roma in
existance,
> until new prospective citizens found her.
> Q. Fabius Maximus

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Plebeian Aedile (and very proud of it!!!)

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Comitia Populi Tributa Election Results, election of the 8th Quaestor
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:20:12 -0000

Congratulations, my quaestor!

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Ex Officio Consulis Senioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani

>
> Publius Tarquitius Rufus is elected Quaestor for MMDCCLVI.
According
> to the law Publius Tarquitius Rufus can assume the office of
Quaestor
> the 23th of April 2756 A.U.C. (2003). I will soon discuss his
> assignment with himself and one of the higher Magistrate.
>

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the
From:	URCITANUS <urcitanus@terra.es>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:15:45 +0100

Salvete omnes

Carissimus Gaius Galerius Peregrinator, you are totally right. Being a
PAtrician should be a reward for the services to our community, but now
it seems to be just...well, I don�t really know. How can someone get to
be a Patrician? Is it as simple as just choosing it?

Vale

antonius adrianus urcitanus

----- Mensaje Original -----
De: "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Fecha: Lunes, Enero 27, 2003 9:38 pm
Asunto: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the
majority?)

> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
>
> From: M Arminius Maior <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
>
>
>
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
>
> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:45:08 -0300 (ART)
>
>
>
> ...So, in the last year, Nova Roma gained 511 new cives,
>
> and 179 (35%) of them was patricians. That is, with a
>
> census, is possible that the proportion of patricians
>
> grow a bit more...
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Salvete
>
>
>
> I am surprised. I thought some 80% were Patricians, but 35%
> is still
>
> much too high anyway. I hope people are not taking this
> Patrician/Plebeian
>
> division too seriously. Once we're out of the computer that will
> have to
>
> change. We don't have patrician/plebeian classes unless we want
> to be a
>
> role playing group.
>
>
>
> The Patrician title should be strictly applied to the members
> of the
>
> Senate alone. That is, to be a patrician you'd have to earn it
> and now I'll
>
> run for cover.
>
>
>
> Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
>
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
>
>
> </tt>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
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> <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:34:55 -0600

"Without these first 30 gens' time, effort and commitment there is no NR to grow and receive plebeians. Have you thought of that?"

What came first, the chicken or the egg? I ate the chicken, and then I ate his egg.
Can a flower spontaneously exist with out the Sun, water, and dirt? Did the patricians create Roma in 750 BC, then invite a bunch of poor people to come to their city to be oppressed and exploited? "Look what we've created, poor people. Now since we created this, you shall forever be second class citizens. Come to Rome and worship us"

"The Plebs did attempt to leave and start their own city in the 500s until
they realized that they needed the Pats, to provide protection, since the
best armed citizens were also the richest."

I have a feeling the opposite is true today.

And, by the way, good job on protecting us from the Gauls when they sacked the City.

"If the Plebs all left, I should imagine the Patricians would continue to keep the flame to Vesta lit, the Senate in session, and Nova Roma in existance, until new prospective citizens found her.
Q. Fabius Maximus"

What an arrogant statement. I don't think the entire plebian population leaving en masse would be the best publicity for our organization.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 07:37:33 -0600

Well put, Master Faustus!
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 4:19 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)

Salve, dearest consular!

Yes, I sure agree, but even the ancient patricians realized that
without the plebs, the capacity of the roman army would decrease, and
the Republic easy would be prey of another city. There would me much
less social unrest and peace, but at costs of losing the Imperium and
hegemony. That is why the patricians wisely �gave the ring to keep
the fingers� allowing the tribunate.

Really the plebs dind�t understand the Lar Religion of the
patricians, and really haven�t cared about it (F. Coulanges), they
simple would change of city and worship Vesta of some other place.
There wasn�t religious bounds attaching the plebs to some city, at
least on the beggining.

Maybe there would be new imigration, but the patricians always had
the will to have clients, not independent plebs on the city. The
clients were bound to the lar of the patron, they were not �people
without religion� how the plebeians were used to be called (not that
the plebeians didn�t worshipp, but they didn�t have a Familiar Lar
and known Ancestors).

Machiavelli on the �Discourse about Titus Livius Books� showed
wonderfully this, comparing Sparta and Rome, how Sparta has lost its
hegemony by reducing the growing of the city and its armies, on
opposition of Rome, who brought the glory at costs of social unrest.

The growing of the Plebs was the path to the glory of Rome.

> If the Plebs all left, I should imagine the Patricians would
continue to keep
> the flame to Vesta lit, the Senate in session, and Nova Roma in
existance,
> until new prospective citizens found her.
> Q. Fabius Maximus

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Plebeian Aedile (and very proud of it!!!)


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Patricians Out???
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:41:53 +0100

Salve Marcus Minucius Audens,

<I find it unfortunate that you should see the necessity of unsubscribing
Patricians from the "Plebian
<List," even "without malice."

<As with some others here in Nova Roma I see no real reason for a
<"Plebian List" but of course you are quite free to indulge yourself as you
wish.

It is obvious from your comments that you seem to think that I woke up last
week and decided "hey! I'm going to indulge myself and put together a list
for Plebeians! And those mean old nasty patricians better keep out or I am
going to unsubscribe them so quick their heads will spin!!"

The CPT list has been there since Nov 2000. As a former Plebeian, I'm
surprised that you weren't aware of that. When I inherited this list, the
*only* info that I had was the FAQ message written by former Tribune Gnaeus
Moravius Piscinus describing the historical reasons of why his predecessor
had created the list and outlining what the list guidelines were. So I spent
the better part of last weekend deleting non-citizens, ex-citizens,
Patricians, writing a new intro page, writing a new welcome and
unsubscription message, and unbouncing the bouncing members. I sought to
follow the rules as set down more than 2 years ago. I think that I should be
praised for taking the initiative and doing some work rather than getting
criticized.

And I can think of many ways to indulge myself -- certainly spending my
weekend updating the CPT list is not one of them.

<By separating those Patricians who were interested in discussing various
aspects with plebians, you
<have to some degree halted that process, and again to some degree have
caused the beginning
<of some degree of emnity, niether one of which is needed in NR.

There are no discussions between Patricians and Plebeians on the CPT list.
In order for me to halt discussions, they need to have existed in the first
place. The list seems only to have been used in Feb and March 2001 as an
extention of mainlist brawling. These CPT arguments were between Patricians
amongst themselves, Plebeians amongst themselves, or Patricians against
Plebeians. It *was* my goal to change the list into what the list was
created for: a forum for Plebeians to discuss plebeian related issues and
proposed legislature. But it seems that taking initiative is not smiled upon
here, so the list can go back to its uselessness, with no interference from
me. And I can occupy my time with something else on the weekends....

I have just changed the list to allow anyone to join. Plebeians, patricians
and non or ex citizens can join at will without the moderator requiring
their Roman name before approving. Any of my fellow Tribunes are of course
free to change the list to whatever they want, or to kill it if they choose.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis

--- In ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com, Gian G Reali
<piscinus@j...> wrote:
Salvete Quirites:

Who established the Comitia Plebis Tributa list?
The CPT list was established by the previous tribune, Tarquinius Caesar.

Why was a separate list created for the Comitia Plebis Tributa?
Under the Constitution either Tribuni Plebis may call the CPT
to order (Section III.C). Then the CPT alone may "pass laws governing the
rules by which it shall operate internally." In the past our Constitution
was dictated by one individual acting alone. Recently we saw how a
previous Consul attempted to place leges before the Comitia Centuriata
without
first posting them for discussion. Some may believe all our laws
should be dictated or perhaps passed by some chicanery. I prefer that in
the
CPT at least that our Quirites have an opportunity to read and discuss
proposals before they are asked to vote on them. That was the intent
of our previous Tribunus Plebis when he established the list. That is
how he employed the list.

The first order of business for the CPT will be to discuss
procedural matters of just how the comitia should operate. ALL Plebeian
citizens
are members of the CPT. ALL Plebeians have a right to discuss and
decide for themselves how their institutions shall be run. Such procedures
will not be dictated. I again urge all Quirites of the Plebeian order to
subscribe to the CPT's list so that they will have full opportunity to
participate in the proceedings of the comitia.

http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/ComitiaPlebisTributa

What functions do the CPT serve that it would require its own separate
list?

The Comitia Plebis Tributa has three basic functions. The
CPT is one of the legislative bodies of Nova Roma. The CPT is like a house
of
Parliament, with every Plebeian acting as a MP. Just as the Senate
has its own separate email list to discuss issues brought before it, the
CPT uses its list to discuss matter brought before the comitia.

The first major function of the CPT is to consider and vote
upon plebiscita that has the force of law. The CPT list is then for the
Tribuni Plebis to post their proposed legislation, and allow all
Plebeians to discuss such proposals before any vote is made upon
them. Further, since the CPT is a legislative body, and all its members are
equally entrusted with its duties and responsibilities, then every
Quirites of the Plebeian order may post their own proposals for
plebiscita to the list.

A second major function of the CPT is that it acts as a
court (Section III.C.3) Either Tribune may call the comitia to order. In
doing so,
where the comitia is called to act as a court, the Tribune would be
responsible for posting any charges that were to be made. In this way
the Tribuni Plebis employ their power of coercito, as held by them in
Roma Antiqua. Further, the Tribuni Plebis would be responsible for
presenting evidence to the comitia as a prosecuting officer, and would
also be responsible for seeing that the defense would have the same
opportunity to present their evidence. Perhaps one Tribune would act
as advocate, the other as prosecutor. The judicial procedures for the
comitia has still to be worked out by plebiscita. A separate list for
the CPT is thus required for when it sits in session as a court. The
CPT judicial proceedings would be open, however such proceedings do not
belong on the NR main list.

The third function of the CPT is to elect the Tribuni Plebis
and the Aediles Plebis. By plebiscita the CPT could establish additional
Plebeian officers, honores, viatores and curatores as the comitia may
decide is required. The CPT could then also function to elect such
internal officers.

If any Quirites of the Plebeian order wishes to discuss these
functions of their CPT then you should subscribe to the list at :

http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/ComitiaPlebisTributa

Nova Roma Libera semper vivat.
Valete

Moravius Piscinus
Tribunus Plebis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:48:22 +0000

----Original Message Follows----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:23:34 EST

...Those gens who took part in the formation of NR, should be honored, and
Patrician status is the way that is done..

---------------------------------------------------------------

That's fine in a mail list, but if we want to become a real republic and
grow, how would you explain it to people: Ok now, we're the patricians and
you're the plebeian second class citizens. Mind you, you'll be saying it to
professionals, professors, successful businessmen, and possibly millionaires
(I'd hope). More so, the patricians would have the same kind of people and
the same ratio of rich and poor, educated and ignorant.

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:49:31 +0000

----Original Message Follows----
From: URCITANUS <urcitanus@terra.es>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)

...well, I don�t really know. How can someone get to
be a Patrician? Is it as simple as just choosing it?..

--------------------------------------------------------------

That's it. You simply choose to join a patrician family, and that will
make you a first class citizen patrician.

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:08:18 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete,

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator wrote:
> That's fine in a mail list, but if we want to become
> a real republic and grow, how would you explain it
> to people: Ok now, we're the patricians and you're
> the plebeian second class citizens.

Sorry, but I have to ask. Why is it that you consider
plebeians to be second class citizens? As a patrician,
I certainly do not consider myself in any way superior
to my plebeian colleagues.

This is merely one of the ways that, by imitation, we
honour the ancients. A label that identifies the gens
of the founding fathers of Nova Roma. And the fact
that anyone can apply to join these patrician gens
belies that myth that patricians in Nova Roma are in
any way better that our plebeian counterparts.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:33:38 +0000

----Original Message Follows----
From: Decimus Iunius Silanus <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:08:18 +0000 (GMT)

>...Sorry, but I have to ask. Why is it that you consider
>plebeians to be second class citizens? As a patrician,
>I certainly do not consider myself in any way superior
>to my plebeian colleagues...

As a Patrician, you have certain political privileges denied to
you if you were a Plebeian, and that makes you a first class citizen.

>..This is merely one of the ways that, by imitation, we
>honour the ancients. A label that identifies the gens
>of the founding fathers of Nova Roma..

You know that not every Patrician took part in the founding,
and many joined in after the founding.

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: New Here
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 08:44:51 -0800 (PST)

Greetings, Octavia--Welcome to Nova Roma! I hope you
will like it here and that the knowledge base of our
citizenry will prove helpful to you.

There are many people here who are quite knowledgeable
about Roman culture. There is a link to special
interest groups (called sodalitates), on the main NR
website. People in those groups should be able to
either help you themselves or point you toward
reference materials which might you might find useful.

It's fascinating to meet someone who writes historical
mysteries. My favorite author in that genre is Anne
Perry, whose knowledge of the Victorian era (in two
time periods) has greatly impressed me.

I look forward to becoming better acquainted. :)

---
Renata Corva
Rogatrix

=====
Chantal
http://www.theranweyr.org

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:47:48 -0600 (CST)

Salve Gai Galeri,

> As a Patrician, you have certain political privileges denied to
> you if you were a Plebeian, and that makes you a first class citizen.

Patricians have a very minor political privilege: five extra
century points. Plebeians get something far more valuable:
the ability to vote for or to hold the position of Tribune.
Neither are second class citizens.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the
From:	URCITANUS <urcitanus@terra.es>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:03:30 +0100

Plebeian outrage!!

----- Mensaje Original -----
De: "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Fecha: Martes, Enero 28, 2003 4:49 pm
Asunto: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the
majority?)

>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: URCITANUS <urcitanus@terra.es>
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the
> majority?)
> ...well, I don�t really know. How can someone get to
> be a Patrician? Is it as simple as just choosing it?..
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> That's it. You simply choose to join a patrician family, and
> that will
> make you a first class citizen patrician.
>
> Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:06:54 +0000

----Original Message Follows----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:47:48 -0600 (CST)

..Patricians have a very minor political privilege: five extra
century points. Plebeians get something far more valuable:
the ability to vote for or to hold the position of Tribune.
Neither are second class citizens.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

--------------------------------------------------------------

Salve Censor Octavii:

You know, you could not run for Censor or Consul if you were not a
Patrician citizen, and these are the highest offices in Novaroma and that is
a privilege of a first class citizen denied to a Plebeian.

Here I must say that all the people who held/hold these offices, that I
would know of since I joined, were/are of the highest professional quality
and dedication. I am not trying to criticize anybody. In fact, I tip my
hat for these dedicated gentlemen who gave so much, and still do, and that
includes you too, of course.

Vale
Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:21:01 -0600 (CST)

Salve Gai Galeri,

> You know, you could not run for Censor or Consul if you were
> not a Patrician citizen, and these are the highest offices in Novaroma
> and that is a privilege of a first class citizen denied to a Plebeian.

Not true; we have no such restrictions. One of our current Consuls
is Plebeian, and a past Consul was Plebeian when he held that office
but later became Patrician.

> Here I must say that all the people who held/hold these offices, that I
> would know of since I joined, were/are of the highest professional quality
> and dedication. I am not trying to criticize anybody. In fact, I tip my
> hat for these dedicated gentlemen who gave so much, and still do, and that
> includes you too, of course.

Thanks!

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	labienus@novaroma.org
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:28:42 US/Central

Salvete Gai Galeri omnesque

> You know, you could not run for Censor or Consul if you were not a
> Patrician citizen, and these are the highest offices in Novaroma and that is
> a privilege of a first class citizen denied to a Plebeian.

I'm not sure where you got this impression. In the earliest days of the
ancient Republic, the higher magistracies were restricted to patricians.
However, this was not the case in the middle and late Republic, and it is not
the case in Nova Roma. If you want proof of this, note that I am a plebeian
consul.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:32:00 +0100

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator wrote:
> You know, you could not run for Censor or
> Consul if you were not a Patrician citizen,
> and these are the highest offices in Novaroma
> and that is a privilege of a first class
> citizen denied to a Plebeian.

(This mail took too long in getting written, so Marcus Octavius has
already said some things I guess I duplicate in this letter. Ah well,
I'm sending it anyway. :) )

Salve, Gai Galeri Peregrinator.

May I point out that this may have been the case in Roma Antiqua, but
most certainly is not in Nova Roma. In fact, the current junior consul,
Titus Labienus Fortunatus, is a member of the plebeian order.

However, I will have to correct Marcus Octavius Germanicus, or at least
add to his statement. He forgot to mention the office of plebeian
aedile, which the patricians can neither stand nor vote for, much the
same as the office of tribune.

So, two offices and two elections, not counting legislative elections
likely to come in the future in the comitia plebis tributa, where
plebeians have their say but patricians don't. The patricians get a
one-time sum of five century points, the same awarded to any scriba for
their work.

In my opinion, this means the patricians are losing out, big time. The
only real compensation is whatever dignitas being a patrician may
entail, or perhaps the perception of being somehow closer to our ancient
forebears.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:44:46 +0000

----Original Message Follows----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:21:01 -0600 (CST)

>..Not true; we have no such restrictions. One of our current Consuls
>is Plebeian,
-------------------------------------------------------------
Then I stand corrected. I was under the impression that only Patricians
could run for Consul.

Thank you very much.

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:45:28 -0000

Salve Gai Galeri,

>>..This is merely one of the ways that, by imitation, we
>>honour the ancients. A label that identifies the gens
>>of the founding fathers of Nova Roma..

> You know that not every Patrician took part in the founding,
>and many joined in after the founding.

Which is why I said that the current system honours the gens of our founding fathers and further, that anyone is entitled to apply to join these gens. The very fact that to become either a patrician or a plebeian is a matter of choice means that neither is, or should be considered, a second class citizen.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:47:31 -0600 (CST)

Salve Tite Octavi,

> However, I will have to correct Marcus Octavius Germanicus, or at least
> add to his statement. He forgot to mention the office of plebeian
> aedile, which the patricians can neither stand nor vote for, much the
> same as the office of tribune.

True - but we can run for Curule Aedile, which has much the same
functions. The net effect of all of this is that a Plebeian who
wishes to be Aedile can run for any of four positions, while the
Patricians must contend for only two openings... Plebeians then
effectively have a better chance of becoming Aedile.

> In my opinion, this means the patricians are losing out, big time. The
> only real compensation is whatever dignitas being a patrician may
> entail, or perhaps the perception of being somehow closer to our ancient
> forebears.

We do get to use the more famous names - Iulius, Iunius, Octavius...
That's not quite as good as being Tribune, but it is some compensation.

Vale, O.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:49:26 -0600 (CST)

Salve Gai Galeri,

> Then I stand corrected. I was under the impression that only Patricians
> could run for Consul.

No problem... looking at the names of past Consuls, it does give one the
impression that Patricians have an advantage there. I think that this
is merely due to most of the "old-timers" having eventually attained
that position, and that as time goes by and distinguished newcomers
appear, this will be less of a factor, and eventually the majority
of Consulars will be Plebeian.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?) - Aediles were older!
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:14:22 -0000

Salve Octavius Censor, Salve Octavius Curator, Salve Peregrinator

> However, I will have to correct Marcus Octavius Germanicus, or at
least
> add to his statement. He forgot to mention the office of plebeian
> aedile, which the patricians can neither stand nor vote for, much
the
> same as the office of tribune.

Yes! Don�t forget the plebeian aedilship! Silent one, but not less
important and older than the tribunate! Yes, OLDER!

Now history...

The first aedilship was the plebeian aedilship. On my previous
message, I�ve talked that plebeians and patricians had different
worships, the plebeian on �public� lares of the plebeain gods (and
sometimes imported gods, like Cibele), the patricians mantaining the
gentilic religion of the Lar of the family, the familiar tomb and the
worship of a known ancestor.

The first and major plebeain goddess was CERES (greek Demeter)
goddess of Agriculture. The Aediles were created to take care of the
Temple of Ceres, the point of meeting of the plebs on the start of
their movement.

The Plebeian Aedilship is so older that its beggining is almost lost.
We don�t have the episode of its formation, like the Tribunate, even
this episode been somewhat legendary.

After, the Patricians created the Curule Aedilship for them, but I
don�t remember if on the beggining it was opened for all. (Well, on
the beginning none of the magistracies were opened to plebeians.) The
Curule Aedilship had the Curule Chair, like the others magistracies
as the consulship and praetorship (see the sucess of the Plebeians
Aediles, they made the patricians jealous of the honour! Just
kidding, I think a magistrate of the Temples and Public Buildings
showed a real necessity), and I suppose the Plebeains Aediles hadn�t
the chair, like the Tribunes that were not considered magistrates on
the real meaning (ie, empowered by auspices for election, having
imperium outside their body, etc).

The Temple of the Pudicitia was a legendary example. There was the
Temple of the Pudicia worshiped by the women. But the wife of the
first Plebeian Consul was forbidden to enter on the temple by the
patricians (that religious problem of the absence of a ancient lar on
the plebeians family). Then she and other plebeian women created the
�Plebeian Pudicitia� Aedes to them. Titus Livius tells it somewhere
on his books. Unfortunatly, there is no vestiges where that
aedes/aediculas were, and some historians find the episode legendary.

On NR, there is no difference between the two Aedilships. Alas, I
think they should easyly work together. But, where you have same
names, the competition always rises, that is the human nature.

Vale bene in pacem deorum,

L. Arminius Faustus
Plebeian Aedile

PS: I�ve said CERES? So wait the Cerealia Ludi on 12-19 of April!

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Absentia
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:18:23 +0100

Fr. Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.

I'll be absent from tomorrow to Sunday because I'll go in Wales and London
for a work trip.
In fact I'm technical partner of a UE program "Equal" for the accessibility
to the job by discriminated people and in Cardiff I'll have a class learning
to design websites for people with disabilities.
I'll be in London during the week-end and I hope to meet some britannic nova
romans.
I thing I'll can read my e-mail box but I'm not sure to have to time to
answer.

Valete bene

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:34:56 +0100

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
> We do get to use the more famous names -
> Iulius, Iunius, Octavius... That's not
> quite as good as being Tribune, but it
> is some compensation.

Salve, Marce Octavi Germanice.

Let me join you in pointing out the fame, the dignitas and auctoritas,
associated with some names, such as, for instance, Octavius...;)

Viva Octavia! (We're adopting new members, just contact our
paterfamilias for the required rites. Please include a blank check in
your application.)

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

P.S. The "Blank Check"-part was a joke, and a bad one if you had to read
this to realise that. Sorry, odd sense of swedish humour, I guess. D.S.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:51:01 EST

In a message dated 1/28/03 9:47:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk writes:

> is a matter of choice means that neither is, or should be considered, a
> second class citizen

The only second class citizens in Nova Roma are those who do not pay their
dues depriving the republic of much needed revenue. We are all in this
together.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:57:09 -0600

yeah, thats it.

And you're under the auctoritas of the paterfamilieas of that gens. So, the patricians grow their membership and increase their power

-----
From: URCITANUS
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)

Plebeian outrage!!

----- Mensaje Original -----
De: "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Fecha: Martes, Enero 28, 2003 4:49 pm
Asunto: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the
majority?)

>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: URCITANUS <urcitanus@terra.es>
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the
> majority?)
> ...well, I don�t really know. How can someone get to
> be a Patrician? Is it as simple as just choosing it?..
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> That's it. You simply choose to join a patrician family, and
> that will
> make you a first class citizen patrician.
>
> Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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>
>
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>
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:16:16 -0000

> And you're under the auctoritas of the paterfamilieas of that gens. So, the patricians grow their membership and > increase their power.

It really is unnecessary and counter-productive to attempt to create a them and us situation that doesn't exist.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:17:37 -0600

how?

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Decimus Iunius Silanus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)

> And you're under the auctoritas of the paterfamilieas of that gens. So, the patricians grow their membership and > increase their power.

It really is unnecessary and counter-productive to attempt to create a them and us situation that doesn't exist.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:18:23 -0600

Use famous names all you want. You have no real ties to those long dead people, any more than the lowliest citizen might have, blood or otherwise. Patiricians use merit, in that they created Nova Roma, to justify their privilege. I think that argument is weak. This isn't a business venture. We are trying to recreate a nation. Parcelling out privileges, that stay with their gens for their entire existence, for simply being there at the begining is repugnant to the modern mind. I predict this class distinction will one day be the ruin of Nova Roma.

The noteworthy citizens I've met in here are meretorious because they've earned it. Not because of their name. Service to the Republic should be the only measure for privilege. Any argument to the contrary is simply a privileged few protecting their privilege

----- Original Message -----
From: Kristoffer From
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
> We do get to use the more famous names -
> Iulius, Iunius, Octavius... That's not
> quite as good as being Tribune, but it
> is some compensation.

Salve, Marce Octavi Germanice.

Let me join you in pointing out the fame, the dignitas and auctoritas,
associated with some names, such as, for instance, Octavius...;)

Viva Octavia! (We're adopting new members, just contact our
paterfamilias for the required rites. Please include a blank check in
your application.)

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

P.S. The "Blank Check"-part was a joke, and a bad one if you had to read
this to realise that. Sorry, odd sense of swedish humour, I guess. D.S.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] EDICTVM PRAETORICIVM DE PRIORIBVS EDICTIBVS PRAETORICIBVS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:29:39 +0100 (CET)

Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

Ex officio praetorium.

EDICTVM PRAETORICIVM DE PRIORIBVS EDICTIBVS PRAETORICIBVS

According to the Lex Arminia de Ratione Edictorum, the following
praetorial edictum is considered still valid for the year MMDCCLVI:

Edictum Praetoricium "Praetores May Act on Behalf of Absent
Patresfamilias" issued by T. Labienus Fortunatus:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2002-08-07.html

Datum a.d. VII Kalendis Februarii anno MMDCCLVI a.U.C.

Gnaeus Salix Astur, praetor.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

CN�SALIX�ASTVR�T�F�A�NEP�TRIB�OVF
PRAETOR�ET�SENATOR
TRIVMVIR�ACADEMIAE
LICTOR�CVRIATVS

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! M�viles
Personaliza tu m�vil con tu logo y melod�a favorito
en http://moviles.yahoo.es

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Patricians Out
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:30:20 -0500 (EST)

Citizens;

My purpose in my previous E-Mail under the above subject, was directed
at bringing people together not driving them apart. Those who refer to
Patricians as a class and deliniating activities which in antiquity were
considered to be the priveledge of the class, but today are not, simply
argue in the same paradihm as that which includes slavery and the right
of women to vote. Those problems are not found in Nova Roma, or if they
are to some small degree, in some reote area of NR, the individual
engaging in them should be named and not a class of citizens who abhor
the idea of clients, and of being a superior class to Plebians.

There are those who have risen from Plebian to Parician through service
to NR, rather than being simply the first to enroll in the micronation.
Many of these gens have been unfailing in thier dedication to NR, and
the reference to these gens as somethig less than they have been
involved in, is very unfair, to my mind. I make no distinction between
Pleb and Pat, as I have said, and reference to my group as being such is
nether beneficial to me personnally nor is it fair. Such sweeping
accusations have been a cause for the departure of many from Nova Roma
previously and I would not have that happen again.

I come from Plebian stock and I too am proud of that. I have raised my
Gens to Patrician through service to NR, and I am proud of that as well.
Finally, I have completed the Cursus Honorium, and have gone on to hold
several Magestries for the benefit of NR. That I am also proud of.

If the Plebian List, to which I earlier referred, is in fact a Plegian
Congress of some kind

(which I did not understand, and such was no made clear to all NR
Citizens to my knowledge)
then perhaps the ideas under discussion within such a Congress should be
placed on the Main List by the Tribunes such as the Senate Agenda is
currently provided to all NR Citzens Plebian and Patrician alike.
Further, perhaps the results of any decisions reached by a majority
within such a Congress might also be placed on the Main List by the
Tribunes, again as are provided to all by the Senate. I personnally,
have no desire to be involved in the thought processes of any individual
Plebian, much as I see no reason for anyone being ivolved in my own, for
the reasons which I have stated very clearer of numerous previous
occasions. If there are citizens who do not trust me to reach my Senate
decisions without deceit, or treachery, I welcome such a discussion and
the basis for such a lack of trust. To date I have received nothing
along those lines, and so I must assume that no-one in NR feels that way
about my decisions, so I continue to wonder why anyone would want to
review my thought and decision processes , other than for simply
something to ridicule or commentupon as to how they could have done it
better. There will always be Monday-Morning Quarterbacking from those
who are not responsible for thier decisions, and I suppose human nature
being what it is, there will always be such.

I suspect that were the Patricians to gather together and form a
Patrician's List, excluding all Plebians, the outcry would be similar to
what objections have been raised for the Plebian List, only
significantly greater. I am, true to say, a Patrician, and I hold
several honors granted to me by the Citizens of Nova Roma, which I hold
dear, but most of all I am a Citizen of NR, and a Senator. I am
interested in what is going on within the micronation which will affect
her in comig years, and I have been the the responsibility for such a
charge by the Citizens of Nova Roma. I like to think that perhaps my
views have some very small value in such deliberations, and I should be
bitterly disappointed to be left out of such.

Further, as I mentioned previously the loss of ideas jointly generated
by the views of Pleb and Pat alike can never be measured except to note
that in the past what good and advantages have been wrought by free
association of such ideas.

In closing, may I respectfully suggest that if anyone is concerned about
any actions that are taken which seems to put anyone or any class down,
that the individuals be identified rather than hiding behind group names
to avoid unpleasantness, and thereby painting all citizens in that class
with the same "tarbrush."

Perhaps the fist thirty Gens of Nova Roma, and those Gens since raised
to Patrician Status might be reviewed to determine thier support of Nova
Roma since the date of inception. Those Patrician Gens which have
contributed nothing to Nova Roma since that date could then be
considered for a change to Plebian, and selected Plebian Families
wishing the honor could be raised to Patrician in replacemet, up to the
original thirty families, for service to NR. In today's NR, this is, to
my understanding, supposed to be the bringing of the "BEST" of ancient
Rome into the 21st century, and the worst left behind. Patrician Class
should be an honor, and an honor recognized by all Ctizens in NR, and
little more since financial and educational attributes between the two
classes mean little in the modern day.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Patricians Out
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:58:35 -0500 (EST)

Mistress Aventina;

You certainly have the right to believe as you wish. However, I don't
believe I have said or indicated any of the rather childish responses
that you have laid at my door. I have not criticized you for your
effort, rather I have expressed my disappointment at your determination
between Pleb and Pat.

I was not aware of this list, as Master Picinius and I did not have a
great deal of intercourse in the past, he being a strong supporter of
another former NR member and I an opponent. It now seems that Master
Picinius and I now see in much the same area, in much the same way, and
for that I am pleased.

I was not aware of your communications relating to the list that you
inherited, nor was I involved in it's creation. I commented as politely
as I could regarding my concerns as a Senator, and I had hoped to get
from you a more reasonable explanation of why you had deleted Patricians
from that list without explanation, notice or discussion. If I did not
make that clear in my message you have my apology and regrets. I have
indicated some of my ideas for such a list based on the explanations
provided by Senator -------------- and comments by others. I would ask
that you would read again my concerns and my feelings both for plebs and
Pats in my messages to the Main List. "Mean Old Patrcians" I don't
believe accurtely portrays the ideas that I have tried to promulgate,
however, as always you are free to believe as you wish.

It is to my mind, absolutely necessary that Plebs and Pats work together
in the building of NR. Niether group can exist without the other. It
si certainly true that if the Plebs left Nova Roma the Patricians would
probably hold on until new applicants were gained. However, tat would
result in a terrible slowing of our micronation goals, perhaps even
leading to discouragement and ultimate failure. By the same token Plebs
could choose some more equitable way of appointing Patricians in any
environment where they chose to go it alone, and the same effects might
well occur based on the numbers of active Plebians. I do not wish to
argue with you or to make accusations, or to accuse you of saying
something that you do not think or did not say.

I was expressing my concern as a Senator, and hoping for a quiet and
factual explanantion of what seemed to me to be a deliberate action. If
that was not clear to you, again you have my apology, and I shall not
refer again to this situation with you.

I am however, disappointed that you see me now as an enemy, someone to
be ridiculed, and one to respond critically to, since I have long held
you in high esteem.

Regretfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics-To my cousins & fellow citizens
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:03:47 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to my Galeria cousins and all interested parties. Salve.

I believe that we have gotten a little far from the original field of why should there be a plebian list. Diana Moravia answered the question and it was a good answer. All this patrician vs. plebians discussion is a bit rough. The Social Wars have long been fought and settled. The Republic was an organic state with plebians being adopted into Patrician families, Plebian consuls, and Plebian generals. The Gracchi fought and died to establish a balanced state where the two parts of the Republic would be more or less equal in legislative and executive power.
Nova Roma strives towards its goals with the aid of both Patricians and Plebians. I have never given much thought about my status as a plebian. I joined my Gens for reasons completely separated from a consideration of Patrician status. I believe most who joined their gens had reasons apart from whether or not it would make them a Patrician. For those that are active in Nova Roma the reward is not measured by patrician/plebian status or political points, but in the good thoughts & opinions of our fellow citizens and our gens. I know this is my motivation. May the gods grant peace and concord to all in the Republic.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:05:38 -0500

Vivat, noble sir. That is most well said!

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:06:26 +0000

----Original Message Follows----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com

>...The only second class citizens in Nova Roma are those who do not pay
>their
>dues depriving the republic of much needed revenue. We are all in this
>together...

---------------------------------------------------------------
And speaking of which, when is the tax season due anyway. I don't want
to be a tax beat.

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics-To my cousin G. Galerius Peregrinator
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:18:00 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to his cousin Gaius Galerius Peregrinator. Salve.

We current Galeri have much to strive for since a Galeria was the senior consul during 822 AUC--our illustrious "ancestor" P. Galerius Trachalus (a plebian according to my sources).

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics-Sweet Sulis-Minerva! A Miracle.
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:23:06 -0500

By the fountain of Sulis-Minerva and the Club of Hercules! A Miracle has occurred! I actually find myself in agreement with Q. Fabius Maximus (aka the Big Bean). It is surely a sign of the end of the world. Ack!

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
(aka the Big Joker)

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senate & Plebs (WAS: Patricians Out)
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:27:43 +0000 (GMT)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

First I'd like to disassociate myself from the current
attempts of a few citizens from both patrician and
plebeian classes to re-fight the plebeian secession of
the early republic. It's not productive and I fear it
may be becoming impolite.

Second, I'd like to clarify my earlier statements, as
they seem to have been misunderstood. I'm aware that I
do go on a bit, but that's usually from a desire to
make myself absolutely clear and not open to
misintepretation. Apparently I failed to make myself
clear in my last message, so I may well go on for even
longer in this one, I'm afraid.

So far only one person who responded to my suggestion
has attempted to address the issue I was actually
raising, which was the similarity between the Plebeian
Assembly and the Senate in terms of their openness and
its desirability. Consul and Senator Fortunatus
commented:

"In antiquity, the Senate was a relatively
private body which was only open to a few hundred
people. Its deliberations were only made public in
digest form, when made public at all.

The comitia, however, were public in nature and
intent. They were, and are, representative of the
democratic element in the mixed Roman government.
Therefore, anything that happens before one of the
trina comitia, whether a vote on a lex or trial or an
election, ought to be as public as possible."

We have already heard on this list at considerable
length (all in the archives) the evidence concerning
the openness of the Senate to spectators in the
ancient republic. It was indeed "relatively private",
but the doors were apparently usually open (until the
very late republic, by which time I'm sure we would
all agree the consitution was showing considerable
dysfunction), allowing as many people as could
conveniently fit in the space to watch and listen if
they wanted. There's some evidence to suggest that the
door could be closed on some occasions, but it
generally was not. This much I think we have agreed
already.

The Plebeian Assembly, we heard just the other day,
was not open to non-plebeians, but anyone could sit or
stand nearby and thus hear something of what was going
on.

So it seems to me that the distinction is not very
great. In one case we have a meeting closed to
non-participants but which could usually be observed,
and in the other case we have a meeting closed to
non-participants but which could usually be observed.
The Plebeian Assembly was larger, and met outdoors,
and so in practice it was probably more easily
observable than the Senate, which met indoors. But I'm
not convinced that this should be seen as a difference
of intent or spirit rather than simply a practicality.

The Consul is quite correct to say that it is
democratically desirable for law-making processes to
be heard and witnessed by the public. This argument
applies equally to the Senate, if not more strongly.
The Senate passes senatus consulta much more
frequently than the Plebeian Assembly passes laws, and
whatever the situation in the ancient republic, in
Nova Roma senatus consulta are laws. They have legal
force according to the constitution. Their force is
lower than that of laws, and they can therefore be
overridden, but until a senatus consultum is overruled
by lex or edict it has legal force and is binding on
the entire population: it is a law. Moreover, the
Senate must ratify changes to the constitution, which
is almost the highest law in the state, and it
therefore has the final say (except when a dictator is
in power) on constitutional law. If it is desirable
for the legislative Assemblies to be public because
they make law, then exactly the same argument applies
to the Senate.

Both the Consul and Senator Drusus have added to my
list of "three strongest arguments" against total
transparency for the Senate. I would like to stress
that it was a list of the three strongest arguments,
in my own opinion. It was not and did not claim to be
a list of all the arguments. However, I take due note
of these additions. Senator Drusus' argument, that as
a Board of Directors the Senate will sometimes need to
discuss sensitive matters, I had intended to be
covered by one of my three arguments, which was that
sometimes the Senate would need to discuss sensitive
issues. The Consul's historical argument I've
discussed above, and I must respectfully disagree with
the view that the Senate was historically closed.

Senator and Consular Maximus commented:

"Next, the reasons given being not persuasive enough
for you, I'd suggest you enter the honorum and get
your Senate seat. Then perhaps you will understand."

I would respectfully ask the Consular to read my last
message carefully. I know it was rather wordy and
tedious, but I made special efforts in it to make sure
that people did not make the mistake that he seems to
have made. This may well have been my fault, and in
case it was, I shall try again:

The reasons given *are* persuasive enough for me to
agree that it would be undesirable for our Senate now
to be as open to public view as was the Senate in the
ancient republic. I have stated several times, as
clearly as I can, that I agree with this argument.
However, I also feel that it would be possible and
desirable for it to be more open than it is presently.
No one has attempted to persuade me otherwise, nor
given any arguments to suggest that my suggestion for
making it so is undesirable. Others have also made
suggestions which have not been refuted. I hope that
the Tribunes will try out one of these ideas when
telling us about the next meeting of the Senate.

I would like, therefore, to invite anyone who takes an
interest in such things to try to persuade me that it
would be a bad thing for the Tribunes to make public a
summary of the arguments heard in meetings of the
Senate, without naming any individual Senator in that
summary. So far no one has tried to persuade me, and I
remain unpersuaded.

Finally, the Consular asked me a question:

"As far as the day to day running of NR is concerned,
is every gathering of the MPs televised?"

No, though there is a digital television channel
devoted to broadcasting live from the House of
Commons. Moreover, anyone may arrive unannounced at
the House and watch proceedings from the Strangers'
Gallery whenever the House is sitting (see
http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hcio/gallery.cfm
for more details). Also, the full minutes of the
proceedings of the Houses of Parliament are
transcribed in Hansard, which is available to the
general public. Finally, it is worth remembering that
members of the press are, like the public, free to
watch sessions of Parliament and to report on them in
as much detail as they wish, down to the sweat on the
speakers' brows, in the national and international
media. I hope this answers your question.

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics-response to the lawyer
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:28:13 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Gaius Basilicatus Agricola.

Once again, you show you are a lawyer. "Auctoritas of the paterfamilias"--perhaps in theory but not in practice.

Bad Joke Reference-Three men walk into a caupona; a lawyer, a drunk, and a pimp. Oh sorry, that was just the first man.
[JOKE, JOKE!!! Please don't sue me. Whine! Gringe! Curl into the fetal position!]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Plebian / Patrician
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:31:30 -0500 (EST)

NR Citizens;

There is perhaps another honor here which may only be involved in a few
cases. The anchestor of my gens (Marcus Minucius Audens), from whom I
have taken my Roman name, served in the legions (Legio XX) first as a
legionairy and later as a "Miles Immunes -Gromaciti" (Military Surveyor
Specialist). He was a Plebian and could not in his lifetime have
aspired to the status of Patrician, outside of a phenomenal stroke of
good fortune. As far as we know, and as expressed on his burial altar,
found in Great Britain, this did not happen. I am extremely pleased and
proud to say that I have been in some small way involved in raising my
anchestor's Gens to Patrician, something of which he would have been
inordinately proud.

If in Nova Roma, we undertake to honor the Gens that we enter, and honor
those anchestors whose name we choose, then one of my great successes,
to me, is to present my ancestor with something that he would never have
been able to achieve, very much as presenting my biological father with
something of great value to him in the modern day.

Perhaps none who have criticized my being a Patrician and former Plebian
will understand that, and that is all right too, since the understanding
need really be no-one;s my my es and mine. However, while we are
expounding on the privaledges of being a Patrcian, this privaledge is
the one that I hold most dear, and is the one which I sincerely hope
that each member of the Gens Minucia holds to be of some degree of value
as relates to thier personal beliefs.

I am not as I have said before, at all ashamed of my Plebian entrance to
Nova Roma. I had been very kindly offered the Gens of a Patrician upon
my entrance, but decided that while I valued the offer, I should make my
own way. That person, Senator Q. Fabius Maximus, will always have my
strong appreciation for his very kind and generous offer. I had hoped
that I could make something of myself and my Gens on my own, and I
sincerely hope that my adopted ancestor is as pleased with my gift to
him, as I am in having been able to present it.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate & Plebs (WAS: Patricians Out)
From:	labienus@novaroma.org
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:54:56 US/Central

Salvete Aule Apolloni omnesque

I have no quarrel with your primary argument. I would have no problem with any
tribunus plebis who chose to summarize the various arguments raised in the
Senate to the populace. The question of how much to report to the people is
for each tribunus to address on an issue-by-issue basis, and is an implicit
part of their constitutionally mandated powers and duties. If you want more
information, then please do lobby the tribuni plebis to give it to you.

Where we part ways is in our various interpretations of the ancient record
regarding the openness of the ancient Senate.

<much pruning follows>
> We have already heard on this list at considerable
> length (all in the archives) the evidence concerning
> the openness of the Senate to spectators in the
> ancient republic. It was indeed "relatively private",
> but the doors were apparently usually open...
>
> The Plebeian Assembly, we heard just the other day,
> was not open to non-plebeians, but anyone could sit or
> stand nearby and thus hear something of what was going
> on.
>
> The Plebeian Assembly was larger, and met outdoors,
> and so in practice it was probably more easily
> observable than the Senate, which met indoors. But I'm
> not convinced that this should be seen as a difference
> of intent or spirit rather than simply a practicality.

I disagree almost entirely. The Senate met in a templum or the Senate
building. Neither type of edifice had large doors. Only a few people could
comfortably crowd around them, and only the tribuni plebis were allowed to sit
within the vestibule of the Senate's meeting place. Anyone who was not a
tribunus would be relegated to the steps, from which I doubt that a person
could catch more than a glimpse of a Senator or a snatch of an impassioned
speech.

The comitia, on the other hand, met outdoors and involved a very large
gathering of people. Orators addressing the crowd had to speak quite loudly,
and aides would loudly repeat the speech amid the crowd so that those in the
back might hear. Unlike a meeting of the Senate, any passers by might easily
overhear what was going on whether they wanted to or not.

And, on the subject of the intent or spirit of the two bodies, one might note
that C Iulius Caesar's posting of the Senate's business for all to read was
both controversial and the act of the foremost member of the popular cause.
Prior to that, access to the Senate's business was almost always very tightly
controlled. Indeed, throughout the history of the Republic, the Senate opposed
sharing itself with the general public of Rome. In other words, the Senate was
and is oligarchic (or aristocratic if one prefers) in nature.

On the other hand, the Concilium Plebis (which we refer to as the Comitia
Plebis Tributa) was meant to be a collection of the vast majority of the Roman
voting population. From its inception, it was a very public affair dedicated
to the interests of the common man. It was and is democratic in nature; a
completely different beast from the Senate.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:56:50 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gaius Galerius Peregrinator <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>

> That's fine in a mail list, but if we want to become a real republic and
>grow, how would you explain it to people: Ok now, we're the patricians and
>you're the plebeian second class citizens. Mind you, you'll be saying it to
>professionals, professors, successful businessmen, and possibly millionaires
>(I'd hope). More so, the patricians would have the same kind of people and
>the same ratio of rich and poor, educated and ignorant.
>
That is just the problem that led the Republic into the Monarchy and in later times similar aristocratic snobbery led Russia and Germany into populist totalitarianism. There's no certain way of knowing where the Patricians came from but a good guess is that Plebes were retainers, freedmen, immigrants, conquered. That was how life worked in an early slave society. It wasn't so different in the England, France and USA of 200 years ago. It's not an attractive way for it to work now. It is not even how the Roman Empire worked. It can be modified - for instance everybody starts Plebeian and can become Patrician. Gentes had branches on both sides. It could go in reverse like the reformed British House of Lords and its appointee life peers, nobility follows position rather than confers it.
In point of fact, this sort of snobbery is a manifest drawback to most of the free-enterprise extreme capitalist micronations. In their case, they are all dominated by money rather than status but that domination makes it hard to imagine why anybody needing to work for a living would want to risk dependence upon the competitive credentials of founding plutocrats to out-strip each other in offering wages. In other words, their financial structure mitigates against a working class they need to run their show joining. Likewise, creation of a genuinely privileged closed aristocracy is going to be about as attractive to those necessarily excluded as permanent slavery. (I'm all in favour of temporary slavery for the Public Good)
V. Ambrosius Caesariensis.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Nova Britannia Chat Room Tonight - All Welcome!
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:56:03 -0500

Salvete!

The weekly Nova Britannia chat will be held tonight from 9:00 pm to
10:00 pm EST at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaBritannia/chat

All are welcome!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Propraetor Nova Britannia
Lictor
Minerva Templi Sacerdotes

Patria est communis omnium parens.
"Our native land is the common parent of us all." - Cicero

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics, was:(Plebs really the majority?)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:03:47 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gaius Galerius Peregrinator <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
>
> You know, you could not run for Censor or Consul if you were not a
>Patrician citizen, and these are the highest offices in Novaroma and that is
>a privilege of a first class citizen denied to a Plebeian.
>
You would not do any of these in Ancient Rome unless you had a penis - for the good reason that they ultimately refer to decisions about warfare in which women did not indulge.
However, that has changed here. It follows that other things, such as patrician status by individual appointment, might also modernise. Offices open to all constitute a possibly greater change since they reflect on the Tribunes Plebum. On the other hand, that was always an office far too powerful without enough responsibility, so perhaps shhould be looked at.

V. Ambrosius Caesariensis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR Demographics-Sweet Sulis-Minerva! A Miracle.
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:07:23 EST

In a message dated 1/28/03 12:27:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com writes:

> I actually find myself in agreement with Q. Fabius Maximus (aka the Big
> Bean). It is surely a sign of the end of the world. Ack!
>
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
> (aka the Big Joker)
>

Galerius, get it right will ya? It's the Big Green Bean. And I don't
believe the end will come soon. Our augur L. Equitius would have informed
me.

Fabius Maximus
AKA the fifth big green bean.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Greetings and belated introduction
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:45:06 -0500

Keep me informed. Our two provinces should maintain close relations.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
America Austraorientalis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Senate & Plebs (WAS: Patricians Out)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 2003 17:11:33 EST

In a message dated 1/28/03 12:28:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cordus@strategikon.org writes:

> No, though there is a digital television channel
> devoted to broadcasting live from the House of
> Commons. Moreover, anyone may arrive unannounced at
> the House and watch proceedings from the Strangers'
> Gallery whenever the House is sitting

Really? I did not know this. Thank you for the information. Is this still
true in the current terrorist atmosphere?

Q. Fabius Maximus

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