Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes intulit agresti Latio
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 00:49:33 -0000

Salvete Quirites.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Alexandros Pavlides
<foroellenico@y...>" <foroellenico@y...> wrote:
> The Impact of Hellenism On Rome
>
>
> by Myrle Winn
>
>
> "Graecia capta ferum victorum capit et artes/intulit agresti Latio"

An extremely interesting article. This is an issue that has always
seemed important to me: how much influence did the Hellenic world
*really* exert over Rome? How succesfully was that influence
integrated into the Roman culture? And to what extent?

Thank you very much for sharing this with us, mister Pavlides.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Columbia Catastrophy
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 02:03:30 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites.

I would like to express my deep and sincere sorrow for what has
happened today. The death of innocents is always a terrible thing; the
death of astronauts, who in some way represent the very best of us all
when they delve into the void like explorers and navigators of yore, is
a global catastrophy.

Regardless of their nationality, astronauts are heroes of Mankind. I
will mourn them. May they rest in peace.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
PRAETOR·ET·SENATOR
TRIVMVIR·ACADEMIAE
LICTOR·CVRIATVS

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Off topic Columbia
From:	Joanne Shaver <merlinia@comcast.net>
Date:	Sat, 01 Feb 2003 21:13:04 -0500

Salvete, all. Merlinia Ambrosia here.
It was mentioned that Columbia was old. No, she should have lasted
100 flights. She went at 28. She should have carried the Astronauts well.

We shall see what did happen.

Note: All 3 times we've lost astronauts, (Columbia, Challenger,&
Apollo I, totaling 17) it was all within a few days of each other.
To paraphrase GW Bush-
They did not make it back safe to Earth, but Pray they made it Home.
Valete.
-M.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-topic)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:20:43 EST

> Pray for their relatives - they are still here to need it. Heads
>had better roll because this has been waiting to happen. The
>shuttles are OLD. Buzz Aldrin put a similar scenario into a novel
>about ten years ago. NASA is starved of funds and it is involved in
>missions that should really have been turned over to private
>concerns to develop while it pushed at the extremes and prepared for
>Mars. At the same time, if it were left entirely to private
>enterprise there would no doubt be many more tragedies - look at the
>history of aircraft development.

On February 1st, 2003, the shuttle COLUMBIA, on her 113th flight, broke up
during re-entry over northeastern Texas. Seven astronauts have died. I
awakened to a radio report and switched to television, where streaks of flame
and white vapor upset a prestine blue sky. I talked to a friend who was very
upset and another who was angry via IMs.
Now Iā€™m sitting in my favorite coffee hangout, typing this and listening to
one of the local conspiracy idiots speculate on satellite laser sabotage
because he saw it on Fox News (that audio-visual club for idiots) and it is
all I can do to keep from hitting him with a chair.
This is a human tragedy. Our outward urge to explore, to see and to know, is
perhaps the essence of the best of what we humans are. The cost of the space
program is insignificant when seen beside its benefits, both scientific and
commercial. Far more money is spent each year on cosmetics, fashion,
election campaigns, fast food advertising or any of a hundred other
trivialities. But there is a greater good that comes from space exploration
that cannot be quantified.
>From the moment when a primitive man first climbed aboard a log, pushed it
out into the river and let it carry him downstream because he wanted to see
what was around the bend, human beings have needed to know. When the
pentekonters of the Greeks and Carthaginians; the cogs and longships of
Britain and Scandanavia; the caravels and carracks of Spain and Portugal;
the great canoes of Polynesia, or the junks of China and Japan first ventured
beyond the sight of land or sailed south along unknown coasts, they were
desperate to discover. To find gold and spices, silver and slaves, religious
converts and subservient colonies to be sure, for we are a brutally
aquisitive breed, but also to push back the maps. To make it easier to get
from here to there. To teach and to learn.
Along the way, primitive societies were often disrupted or destroyed, as
later were their conquerors: Egypt, Greece, Persia, Rome, the Mongols, the
Arabs, the Vikings, the Goths; later Spain, Portugal, France, Holland,
Ottoman Turkey, Germany, Japan, Britain, Russiaā€¦and the United States.
Change is ever ongoing and no system lasts forever. Only the urge to know
and to learn persists.
We are faced with a hundred possible outcomes of our actions and we will reap
a million tragedies, but if we can survive as a species we may be able to put
it all right. There may be a utopia in our future, but only if we seek it,
and continue to push back the maps. Starmaps perhapsā€”because we need to go,
out there, into the dark places. And if you think there is nothing out there
but darkness, remember: most of our terrestrial maps were speckled with dark
unknown places. It was only after we had filled them in that we got into
real trouble, that the world wars started. We need incomplete maps.
We lost seven scientists today, and no polemics, whether emotional or
reasoned, can bring them back. And no second-guessing can diminish their
courage or their accomplishments. The shuttles will fly again and, if we are
persistant and lucky, we will have ancestors who will be aliens, born on
distant worlds, who will remember the small green planet that was once home.
And in their peace and prosperity, they will reverance the ones who made it
possible, the courageous, stubborn people of Earth, who never gave up.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Damn...
From:	Pipar - Steven <catamount_grange@inwave.com>
Date:	Sat, 01 Feb 2003 20:20:08 -0600

Salus et Fortuna Omnes,

Just got home from work, to the news of the shuttle Columbia and her crew...

Damn...

Seven Are Gone

Sunna has risen, bright in the East
Washing starlight, out of the sky
Wispy skysheep, in their blue lea
Calmly, gently, day has begun

Within the black, high above Earth
A small spark glows, grows in our sight
Out from the dark, lying in West
Skyfaring wain, Starheim Seeker

Columbia, bearing seven
Brave hearts all, and good minded
Men and Women, Worthy in Deed
Road flame pillar, seeking to Do

At the Skyhall, duty they did
Working to build, working to Learn
Living a Dream, Far Travelers
Beyond the bounds, of earthly home

Fortnight, twinnight, both together
Was the length of, venture journey
Sixteen full days, beyond the Winds
Sixteen full days, beyond Sun's Warmth

Came the morning, tools put away
All were seated, ready to fare
Winging to home, hearth and kinfolk
Looking forward, gladly longing

Ship's underbelly, tickled the clouds
Something went wrong, badly amiss
Skywain glowed hot, much too brightly
The great white ship, became embers

Shattered, falling, torn asunder
Columbia, and the brave seven
Into our hearts, tragically thrust
Such a great loss, for Kin and Kith

No more to hear, words from their lips
No more to feel, loving embrace
No more to see, them anymore
No more, no more, but Memory

In this regard, all will recall
Darkness of day, brightness of death
Better still is, bringing to mind
Names they did build, Fame they did have

Sunna has risen, bright in the East
Washing starlight, out of the sky
Wispy skysheep, in their blue lea
Calmly, gently, day has begun

=======================
In Amicus sub fidelis
-Venator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic Columbia
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 1 Feb 2003 18:26:55 -0800 (PST)

--- Joanne Shaver <merlinia@comcast.net> wrote:
> Salvete, all. Merlinia Ambrosia here.
> It was mentioned that Columbia was old. No, she
> should have lasted
> 100 flights. She went at 28. She should have
> carried the Astronauts well.
>
> We shall see what did happen.
>
> Note: All 3 times we've lost astronauts,
> (Columbia, Challenger,&
> Apollo I, totaling 17) it was all within a few days
> of each other.
> To paraphrase GW Bush-
> They did not make it back safe to Earth, but Pray
> they made it Home.
> Valete.
> -M.
>
Columbia was in orbit during the aniverseries of the
Earlier losses. On the 28th they payed tribute to the
crews of Apollo 1 (January 27, 1967) and Challenger
(January 28, 1986). Today when I heard a tape of Rick
Husband during Columbia's memorial tribute to the 10
astronauts I burst into tears.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 1 Feb 2003 20:35:51 -0600

Ave Senatus Populusque Romanus:

I spend a lot of time with Nova Roma. My free time. I've pledged not insignificant amounts of money to it also. Reading through an average of 30 e-mails a day. I am dedicated to the idea of Nova Roma, and like many of my fellow citizens dream of a day, in my lifetime, when I can walk down the streets of a Nova Roman city. However, I feel that under the current leadership that this dream will not be realized.

For what Nova Roma is now, the leadership is fine. But for a group of people who, for the most part, have never had any face to face contact, how on earth do we have 66 laws? Innumerable Senatus Consultums? Endless petty debates about meaningless nothings by e-mail. If this is to be a real world project, I want to see some real world action.

What does that mean? That means we need a plan. A realistic plan. A plan that involves significant amounts of fund raising. A long term outlook. Long term goals with short term ideas to implement those long term goals. A five year plan with goals to be met. A three year plan with goals to be met. A one year plan with goals to be met.

And I want proven leaders to head up those goals. I want the goals to be realistic. Here's an example. I was given the task of "rating" North America's suitability for land purchase to eventually be turned into our sovereign nation. Part of the rating included infrastructure, water, education, taxes, etc. I was to give each category a rating between one and ten. Now, North America includes Canada, Mexico, and the 48 contiguous states of the US. Each one as different as apple pie and pizza. Not to mention the troublesome fact that America, Canada, and Mexico will never, ever, never, ever, never, ever ever ever let a sovereign nation exist on their soil. While the project was well thought out in and of itself, it was patently unrealistic.

So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is for a plan. A 5-3-1 year plan. I want our goals and our society to be realistic. This class division of patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the Republic. I want a vote on the issue: The abolition of class division. As I was reminded today, 2000 plus years have passed since the Republic existed. Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it diabolically ironic that we divide ourselves, on purpose, into classes.

Our publications should be free from Senatorial supervision and funding. Government has no business in regulating, on any level, the media. While those in some European countries would disagree, well, trust me, its better not to have your government regulating your media. I want a vote on that issue.

And we need a plan.

Appoint a commission. Do what you do. Give us plan. Show us the way. Lead us.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola

The LaSalle Law Office
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] P.S. Quo Vadis
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 1 Feb 2003 20:41:06 -0600

and my girlfriend is pissed at me, too, for spending too much time here.

So lets go!

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic Columbia
From:	Vesta <optia_vesta@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 1 Feb 2003 18:46:29 -0800 (PST)

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Columbia was in orbit during the aniverseries of the
> Earlier losses. On the 28th they payed tribute to the
> crews of Apollo 1 (January 27, 1967) and Challenger
> (January 28, 1986). Today when I heard a tape of Rick
> Husband during Columbia's memorial tribute to the 10
> astronauts I burst into tears.

And if we add the cosmonauts, the count is 21

Vestinia Caprenia

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:11:34 -0500

Salve,

>So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is for a plan. A 5-3-1
year plan. I want our goals and our society to >be realistic. This class
division of patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the
Republic. I want a vote on the >issue: The abolition of class division.
As I was reminded today, 2000 plus years have passed since the Republic
existed. >Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it diabolically
ironic that we divide ourselves, on purpose, into classes.

While I applaud your enthusiasm, and I am inclined to agree that putting
together a long term plan charting Nova Roma's future is an excellent
idea, I must disagree with your position that the current system of
Patricians and Plebeians is "odious". The Encyclopedia Britannica
defines social class as:

".a group of people within a society who possess the same socioeconomic
status."

As such, I really can not accept the definition of our system in NR as
one of divided "social classes". Status as either a Plebeian or
Patrician is not pre-ordained by birth, blood or race. It is not based
on socioeconomic status, privilege or even on merit. It is simply the
choice of the individual citizen, who may at any time choose to change
from one to the other by simply moving to another Gens. The resemblance
to the actual system practiced by the Romans is purely superficial, as
is in the case of many of NR's institutions. The motive, I believe for
devising such a system for NR, was simply to create a more Roman "feel"
to our organization, rather than re-create the social inequities which
helped bring about the collapse of the Republic. There is really very
little difference between Patricians and Plebeians in NR. The former get
a token advantage in century points, the later posses an additional
forum to voice their wills. That's it. Aside from the recent debates,
which as far as I can tell have only involved a handful of citizens,
this has never really been an issue before. IMHO this all seems to be a
case of "Excitabat fluctus in simpulo". I think there are better causes
here in NR to merit our attention, and in any case if ain't broke, don't
fix it. Just my two cents worth.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Spurius Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:18:48 -0500

Sp. Postumius Tubertus C. Basilicato Agricolae Amico et Senatue Populoque Romano Novo,

Salvete Cives et Amici,

After a long night I came home to this message of C. Basilicatus. For what I got of it, I must say that for once, since I have been
here, someone has said what I have endlessly thought. There needs to be a plan.

For what we have now, I do agree with what you, Basilicatus, say: the leadership is fine. For what we want to be, I would say that
our leaders are fine, but perhaps not what has been done. And, I agree that if this is to be a "real" project for the "real" world
to see, we definantly need some "real world" action. As you said yourself, "That means we need a plan."

But what of this plan? Yes, we need fund raising. Yes, we need a long-term outlook. We need to put ourselves out to the general
public for them to see what Nova Roma is striving to be. We need a plan -- from twenty years all the way down to the next month. We
need goals to be met.

For my part, speaking from what I see, we have set one goal. The Declaratio Novae Romae states, "... we limit our active territorial
claim to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined." Where have we gotten with this goal in five consulships? If I am to believe
that the last reporting of the Aerarium Saturni is still true, as we have no other public records to review for this purpose, the
State has $2076.85 USD (for other countries, see below). To this I ask: Where is this going? I realize that this figure is most
likely not the current status, but with no other records, how might I state otherwise?

On a few occasions, I have offered ideas for raising money for the Land Project. Since those ideas have been published, I have seen
two actions on them. I also know that others have ideas that have been thrown out for the same purposes. Has any action been taken
on them? I do not know in the least bit.

So now, I am almost certain, it is being asked where I am going with all this meaningless talk. In short, I am saying that I, as a
citizen, want to see the leaders of our beloved micronation furthering the mission of Nova Roma. According to the Constitution, "The
primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from
the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such
fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy." These words were written first by our founders.
Should not they know at least what the mission of Nova Roma is? What have we done to further this?

I can also say, Basilicatus, part of the reason for this inactivity is due to the lack of inactive citizens. But even still, who
could be able to do what we demand? Certainly no one. This, my friend, must be a group effort. We must all come together, regardless
of how much we may all anger each other, we all agree on what the mission of Nova Roma is, and that is what brings us together here
as a nation. Can it not bring us together again as acquantinces working toward a common goal? I should hope so. Nova Roma means that
much to me, and I should hope it means that much to others.

Optime Valete in Civitate,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 1 Feb 2003 23:45:28 -0600

Ave Hadrianus:

Thank you for your support of the short-mid-long term plan.

As far as your statement that "this has never really been an issue before" concerning class divisions: if thats the case, and its no big deal, then abolish the concept. Put it to a vote. I think I know what the results will be-no more division. If the powers that be are too frightened to put it to a vote, well, then, there you have it.

I never said "social class". The division of our society into patrician/plebian is a state imposed division. Divide. Divisive. I don't care if there are no real privileges enjoyed by patricians. I don't care if we are equal. I don't care if the plebes actually have more "power" in Nova Roma. Its divisive and it stinks, and its a big problem for me, and many others, before we exert any more effort in this endeavor.

I keep on hearing things like "There is really very
little difference between Patricians and Plebeians in NR. The former get a token advantage in century points, the later posses an additional forum to voice their wills". Ok. Great. Then it shouldn't be that painful to get rid of the distinction.

We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth? Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of 'em.

G.B. Agricola

----- Original Message -----
From: Adrian Gunn
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 11:11 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve,

>So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is for a plan. A 5-3-1
year plan. I want our goals and our society to >be realistic. This class
division of patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the
Republic. I want a vote on the >issue: The abolition of class division.
As I was reminded today, 2000 plus years have passed since the Republic
existed. >Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it diabolically
ironic that we divide ourselves, on purpose, into classes.

While I applaud your enthusiasm, and I am inclined to agree that putting
together a long term plan charting Nova Roma's future is an excellent
idea, I must disagree with your position that the current system of
Patricians and Plebeians is "odious". The Encyclopedia Britannica
defines social class as:

".a group of people within a society who possess the same socioeconomic
status."

As such, I really can not accept the definition of our system in NR as
one of divided "social classes". Status as either a Plebeian or
Patrician is not pre-ordained by birth, blood or race. It is not based
on socioeconomic status, privilege or even on merit. It is simply the
choice of the individual citizen, who may at any time choose to change
from one to the other by simply moving to another Gens. The resemblance
to the actual system practiced by the Romans is purely superficial, as
is in the case of many of NR's institutions. The motive, I believe for
devising such a system for NR, was simply to create a more Roman "feel"
to our organization, rather than re-create the social inequities which
helped bring about the collapse of the Republic. There is really very
little difference between Patricians and Plebeians in NR. The former get
a token advantage in century points, the later posses an additional
forum to voice their wills. That's it. Aside from the recent debates,
which as far as I can tell have only involved a handful of citizens,
this has never really been an issue before. IMHO this all seems to be a
case of "Excitabat fluctus in simpulo". I think there are better causes
here in NR to merit our attention, and in any case if ain't broke, don't
fix it. Just my two cents worth.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sat, 1 Feb 2003 23:52:49 -0600

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
Ave Tubertus:

I agree with everything you say.

GB Agricola
----- Original Message -----
From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Sp. Postumius Tubertus C. Basilicato Agricolae Amico et Senatue Populoque Romano Novo,

Salvete Cives et Amici,

After a long night I came home to this message of C. Basilicatus. For what I got of it, I must say that for once, since I have been
here, someone has said what I have endlessly thought. There needs to be a plan.

For what we have now, I do agree with what you, Basilicatus, say: the leadership is fine. For what we want to be, I would say that
our leaders are fine, but perhaps not what has been done. And, I agree that if this is to be a "real" project for the "real" world
to see, we definantly need some "real world" action. As you said yourself, "That means we need a plan."

But what of this plan? Yes, we need fund raising. Yes, we need a long-term outlook. We need to put ourselves out to the general
public for them to see what Nova Roma is striving to be. We need a plan -- from twenty years all the way down to the next month. We
need goals to be met.

For my part, speaking from what I see, we have set one goal. The Declaratio Novae Romae states, "... we limit our active territorial
claim to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined." Where have we gotten with this goal in five consulships? If I am to believe
that the last reporting of the Aerarium Saturni is still true, as we have no other public records to review for this purpose, the
State has $2076.85 USD (for other countries, see below). To this I ask: Where is this going? I realize that this figure is most
likely not the current status, but with no other records, how might I state otherwise?

On a few occasions, I have offered ideas for raising money for the Land Project. Since those ideas have been published, I have seen
two actions on them. I also know that others have ideas that have been thrown out for the same purposes. Has any action been taken
on them? I do not know in the least bit.

So now, I am almost certain, it is being asked where I am going with all this meaningless talk. In short, I am saying that I, as a
citizen, want to see the leaders of our beloved micronation furthering the mission of Nova Roma. According to the Constitution, "The
primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from
the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such
fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy." These words were written first by our founders.
Should not they know at least what the mission of Nova Roma is? What have we done to further this?

I can also say, Basilicatus, part of the reason for this inactivity is due to the lack of inactive citizens. But even still, who
could be able to do what we demand? Certainly no one. This, my friend, must be a group effort. We must all come together, regardless
of how much we may all anger each other, we all agree on what the mission of Nova Roma is, and that is what brings us together here
as a nation. Can it not bring us together again as acquantinces working toward a common goal? I should hope so. Nova Roma means that
much to me, and I should hope it means that much to others.

Optime Valete in Civitate,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:55:35 -0500

Salve you still up? GREAT letter to NR right on target

Tiberius
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:54 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
Ave Tubertus:

I agree with everything you say.

GB Agricola
----- Original Message -----
From: Spurius Postumius Tubertus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Sp. Postumius Tubertus C. Basilicato Agricolae Amico et Senatue Populoque Romano Novo,

Salvete Cives et Amici,

After a long night I came home to this message of C. Basilicatus. For what I got of it, I must say that for once, since I have been
here, someone has said what I have endlessly thought. There needs to be a plan.

For what we have now, I do agree with what you, Basilicatus, say: the leadership is fine. For what we want to be, I would say that
our leaders are fine, but perhaps not what has been done. And, I agree that if this is to be a "real" project for the "real" world
to see, we definantly need some "real world" action. As you said yourself, "That means we need a plan."

But what of this plan? Yes, we need fund raising. Yes, we need a long-term outlook. We need to put ourselves out to the general
public for them to see what Nova Roma is striving to be. We need a plan -- from twenty years all the way down to the next month. We
need goals to be met.

For my part, speaking from what I see, we have set one goal. The Declaratio Novae Romae states, "... we limit our active territorial
claim to an amount of land at least equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108 contiguous acres. On this land a
world capital for the admistration of our culture will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The exact site for this New Roman
governmental and spiritual capital is to be determined." Where have we gotten with this goal in five consulships? If I am to believe
that the last reporting of the Aerarium Saturni is still true, as we have no other public records to review for this purpose, the
State has $2076.85 USD (for other countries, see below). To this I ask: Where is this going? I realize that this figure is most
likely not the current status, but with no other records, how might I state otherwise?

On a few occasions, I have offered ideas for raising money for the Land Project. Since those ideas have been published, I have seen
two actions on them. I also know that others have ideas that have been thrown out for the same purposes. Has any action been taken
on them? I do not know in the least bit.

So now, I am almost certain, it is being asked where I am going with all this meaningless talk. In short, I am saying that I, as a
citizen, want to see the leaders of our beloved micronation furthering the mission of Nova Roma. According to the Constitution, "The
primary functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as the period from
the founding of the City of Rome in 753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such
fields as religion, culture, politics, art, literature, language, and philosophy." These words were written first by our founders.
Should not they know at least what the mission of Nova Roma is? What have we done to further this?

I can also say, Basilicatus, part of the reason for this inactivity is due to the lack of inactive citizens. But even still, who
could be able to do what we demand? Certainly no one. This, my friend, must be a group effort. We must all come together, regardless
of how much we may all anger each other, we all agree on what the mission of Nova Roma is, and that is what brings us together here
as a nation. Can it not bring us together again as acquantinces working toward a common goal? I should hope so. Nova Roma means that
much to me, and I should hope it means that much to others.

Optime Valete in Civitate,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-topic)
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:59:18 -0500

I spent the morning in a daze; functioning, but not really here. Every
once in a while I would turn on the radio only to hear the pundits
pontificating without any hard data (someone actually brought up
"shoulder-fired missiles"...) and turn it off again. They were gone, and
no amount of investigation, oratory, or grief would bring them back. I
felt like I had lost close friends. Friends who had climbed into the sky
on that pillar of fire and shared that triumph with all of us so that I,
among others, could say "*WE* have been out there - again!"

I had watched the Columbia lift off from Daytona Beach, Florida - my
friends, with whom I was driving down to KSC, had been late, and we
couldn't make it there for the launch. We pulled off onto the causeway a
few minutes before the scheduled time and watched the takeoff, the
brilliant ball of fire rising into the blue Florida sky, heard the
roar... and she was gone. Technology at the level of magic, fairly tales
become true; we had done it yet again, we humans. That light, that sound
would eventually penetrate to the most remote corner of the earth,
affect every person on this planet - even if they didn't know it today.

High Flight

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew.
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.
-- John Gillespie McGee Jr.

To me, space is the /sine qua non/ of survival for the human race. If -
*when* - we make it out there, plant ourselves on a few other worlds,
establish self-supporting colonies, we will have attained our majority
by the ultimate test the universe has to offer: survival. No nuclear
war, no dinosaur-killer meteor will be enough to stop us; our sons and
daughters will expand into the universe, will grow to face much bigger
challenges, ask greater questions, reach unimaginably greater heights.

We pay the cost of pioneering with heart-breaking effort, with the best
of everything at our disposal... with our very blood and bones. This is
the cost of facing the unknown - and we pay it, and keep on paying it,
because we *must* grow or perish. We will mourn these seven brave people
- but we will go on. Their deaths are a tragedy - but to stop, to
abandon the effort in which they died would be a greater tragedy.

+ Commander Rick D. Husband
+ Pilot William C. McCool
+ Payload Specialist Michael P. Anderson
+ Mission Specialist Kalpana Chawla
+ Mission Specialist David M. Brown
+ Mission Specialist Laurel B. Clark
+ Payload Specialist Ilan Ramon, Israel

Farewell, dear friends.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nam et ipsa scientia potestas es.
Knowledge is power.
-- Sir Francis Bacon

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 02:05:14 EST

In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?William=20Cornett=20Polanco?= <sxtus_iulius_serranus@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:42:17 +0100 (CET)

I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma and am immensely pleased at the prospect of being able to learn more about the culture that was the basis of the modern Western World. There is a definite distinction between the Patrician and Plebian, but most chose our Gens and knew of this. There were class distinctions during the Republic and the Empire. We as citizens of Nova Roma are unique in that we have been born into a modern world with modern ideals...that is a fact! Of course none of us are going to have slaves, crucify people (although there are some horrid people that do deserve to be crucified :-) !) etc. There must be some cohesive plan. There is no question of this. We have chosen this path to take and therefore accepting the structure of the Republican Era is quite normal. I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this. Whether Plebian or Patrician there are still are social structures involved in both. Rome consisted of these levels of soceity, thinking, and culture. That was their way and I am quite sure a lot of people who have "willingly" become citizens of Nova Roma knew of this and have "willingly" spent their lives admiring such a culture. It is OUR right as citizens of Nova Roma to ensure that we do not inflict misfortune on anyone! The social distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different levels in society as it is. Traditions should be kept. Because we live in a different era 2,000 years after the Republic we possess quite different views. Let us not forget that we are glorifying a wondrous era, one also filled with death, injustice, corruption but one also filled with beauty, magnificence, and inspiration that has joined us together as ONE in Nova Roma. I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a Plebian Gens. We are all brothers and sisters unified for a common cause: the Glory of Rome! Let us first organize ourselve through learning all that is Rome! What an immense joy it would be for all of us to be able communicate perfectly
and I dream about Rome!

Sextus Iulius Serranus
qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 06:34:03 EST

Fellow Citizens:

Right before the elections last year there was much discussion of the idea of
localized groups within Nova Roma. Call them what you will, but it is my
opinion that the establishment of local, organized, groups of Nova Roma
citizens is paramount to the survival and future of this micronation. Right
now we are essentially an on-line community, but that needs to change for us
to move onto the "next level."

We COULD argue on and on how a local group should be established, governed,
etc... We could debate historical accuracy and time periods. But I would
propose that we NOT do that to the point of stifling the issue. I can assure
everyone that I am not a citizen of Nova Roma to engage in historical role
playing. I am in Nova Roma because of a love of the Religio, and Roman
Culture. We need local groups established, and chartered by the senate that
are going to meet the needs of our citizens (and not simply the needs of some
historical authenticity).

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:37:57 +0100

Salve Sextus Iulius Serranus,

> I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
Welcome! You're lucky to be in Gens Iulia with an angel for a Materfamilias,
Iulia Vopisca! In fact, if I could go back in time, I would have requested
to join Gens Iulia in 1999, not because it is a patrician gens, but because
of the Iulian's relationship to Venus.

lots of snips in accordance with our list guidelines :-) :
>I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this.
>The social <distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different
levels in society as it is. ><Traditions should be kept.
>I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a
Plebian Gens.

I've snipped a lot for brevity's sake, but I agree with you.
I can understand why citizens wouldn't want NR to be an exact replica of
Rome, complete with slavery, prostitution and tenements but I like the idea
of Patricians and Plebeians in NR. Nova Roma would seem very un-Roman like
if we got rid of our 'class' system, even though in reality it is pretty
much in name only.

And if we got rid of the classes, we would have to change the way our
government worked and so forth. Once we start eliminating the Roman
Traditions that are currently in place, it could eventually lead us to a
Nova Roma that has no resemblance to ancient Rome besides us using Roman
names....

So let's keep our Roman traditions alive--I thought that's why we are all
here?

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:43:57 -0600

Ave Maximus

How so?

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:57:21 -0600

Ave Serranus

So I take it you agree with the plan aspect of Quo Vadis? Great! The Quo Vadis Plan.

Funny, all the patricians weighing in on the subject. Arguments such as "the project is useless without class divisions" and "I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a Plebian Gens". Lame arguments.

What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall of money to us? And he wants to start his own family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir. Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks for the cash"?

You know, it would be even more realistic if we restricted the activities of women. Think how cool it would be if they weren't allowed to post here, and had to act like demure, chaste Roman urban matrons? A Man's Republic for Men.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: William Cornett Polanco
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma and am immensely pleased at the prospect of being able to learn more about the culture that was the basis of the modern Western World. There is a definite distinction between the Patrician and Plebian, but most chose our Gens and knew of this. There were class distinctions during the Republic and the Empire. We as citizens of Nova Roma are unique in that we have been born into a modern world with modern ideals...that is a fact! Of course none of us are going to have slaves, crucify people (although there are some horrid people that do deserve to be crucified :-) !) etc. There must be some cohesive plan. There is no question of this. We have chosen this path to take and therefore accepting the structure of the Republican Era is quite normal. I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this. Whether Plebian or Patrician there are still are social structures involved in both. Rome consisted of these levels of soceity, thinking, and culture. That was their way and I am quite sure a lot of people who have "willingly" become citizens of Nova Roma knew of this and have "willingly" spent their lives admiring such a culture. It is OUR right as citizens of Nova Roma to ensure that we do not inflict misfortune on anyone! The social distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different levels in society as it is. Traditions should be kept. Because we live in a different era 2,000 years after the Republic we possess quite different views. Let us not forget that we are glorifying a wondrous era, one also filled with death, injustice, corruption but one also filled with beauty, magnificence, and inspiration that has joined us together as ONE in Nova Roma. I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a Plebian Gens. We are all brothers and sisters unified for a common cause: the Glory of Rome! Let us first organize ourselve through learning all that is Rome! What an immense joy it would be for all of us to be able communicate perfect
..and I dream about Rome!

Sextus Iulius Serranus
qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 2/1/03 9:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> We are committed to revive that which was best about Republican Rome. Why
> don't we all get some slaves? Can I expose my deformed children at birth?
> Can I keep my daughters under my authority their entire lives? No? We left
> some uglier aspects of Republican culture out. Class division is one of
> 'em.
>
>

Then we are no longer a working model, and the project is useless.

Q Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:05:51 -0600

Ave Anathsios

It sounds good in concept. What are the specifics of your plan? What would you call these groups?
Don't we already have "governors" or "legates" or "Propraetors"

As far as I can tell, my propraetor does nothing. Maybe its just a matter of making the present system work by voting.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 5:34 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Local Presence of Nova Roma (Was: Quo Vadis?)

Fellow Citizens:

Right before the elections last year there was much discussion of the idea of
localized groups within Nova Roma. Call them what you will, but it is my
opinion that the establishment of local, organized, groups of Nova Roma
citizens is paramount to the survival and future of this micronation. Right
now we are essentially an on-line community, but that needs to change for us
to move onto the "next level."

We COULD argue on and on how a local group should be established, governed,
etc... We could debate historical accuracy and time periods. But I would
propose that we NOT do that to the point of stifling the issue. I can assure
everyone that I am not a citizen of Nova Roma to engage in historical role
playing. I am in Nova Roma because of a love of the Religio, and Roman
Culture. We need local groups established, and chartered by the senate that
are going to meet the needs of our citizens (and not simply the needs of some
historical authenticity).

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:23:57 -0600

Ave Tribune

I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures, and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe.

In America, you can be a garbage man one day, a multi-millionaire the next, and then the NEXT day be homeless on the streets. We don't limit a person by their birth or family. We judge them by merit. What they can produce. One can move between the "classes" so easily that we simply have no use for the concept, except for tax purposes. Our top general and Secretary of State, Colin Powell, is a second generation American from a dirt poor immigrant Jamaican family. But I consider him, if anything, of the highest "patrician" class. Not because of his name. Because he earned it. With real life hard work over an entire lifetime. He didn't start a website. He didn't change his name or get adopted into a rich family. That is why I find the concept of being "patrician" because you were first or you joined the right family to be so odious

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 6:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve Sextus Iulius Serranus,

> I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
Welcome! You're lucky to be in Gens Iulia with an angel for a Materfamilias,
Iulia Vopisca! In fact, if I could go back in time, I would have requested
to join Gens Iulia in 1999, not because it is a patrician gens, but because
of the Iulian's relationship to Venus.

lots of snips in accordance with our list guidelines :-) :
>I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this.
>The social <distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different
levels in society as it is. ><Traditions should be kept.
>I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a
Plebian Gens.

I've snipped a lot for brevity's sake, but I agree with you.
I can understand why citizens wouldn't want NR to be an exact replica of
Rome, complete with slavery, prostitution and tenements but I like the idea
of Patricians and Plebeians in NR. Nova Roma would seem very un-Roman like
if we got rid of our 'class' system, even though in reality it is pretty
much in name only.

And if we got rid of the classes, we would have to change the way our
government worked and so forth. Once we start eliminating the Roman
Traditions that are currently in place, it could eventually lead us to a
Nova Roma that has no resemblance to ancient Rome besides us using Roman
names....

So let's keep our Roman traditions alive--I thought that's why we are all
here?

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:27:51 EST

In a message dated 2/2/2003 9:59:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall of money to us? And he
> wants to start his own family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks for the cash"?

I agree with the need for goal setting. However, I don't link the need for
goal setting with a need to do away with Plebeian and Patrician status. I
used to be a Patrician, but opted to form my own Gens and continue as a Pleb.
I feel it has done nothing to harm me in any way. As a matter of fact, I
prefer being a Pleb.

G. Modius Athanasius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:31:44 -0600

I prefer being a pleb, also. I admire, historically, those men who were plebs are fought for the plebeian cause. The patricians ran the Republic into the ground.

If the patricians want to keep their status, thats fine. Its a minor point that can be dealt with later.

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

In a message dated 2/2/2003 9:59:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall of money to us? And he
> wants to start his own family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks for the cash"?

I agree with the need for goal setting. However, I don't link the need for
goal setting with a need to do away with Plebeian and Patrician status. I
used to be a Patrician, but opted to form my own Gens and continue as a Pleb.
I feel it has done nothing to harm me in any way. As a matter of fact, I
prefer being a Pleb.

G. Modius Athanasius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Open Positions in America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
From:	"Charlie Collins" <cotta@spamcop.net>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:59:52 -0600

Salvete Omnes,
I am again asking for Citizens in the Province who be
interested in serving the Province to contact me by private
e-mail. The following positions are open:

Legate Major, Regio Campus(KS, MO, NE)
Legate Major, Regio Silvestris(MN, IA, ND, SD)
Legate Major, Regio Montanus(MT, WY)
Provincial Military Legate

Each Legate Major will be able to appoint a Legate Minor for each state in
order to administer each Regio.
For more info on the Duties of the Legate Major go to
http://PropraetorAMS.blogspot.com and review Edictum
#5. Due lack of use and interest the Provincial Yahoogroups list has been
deleted. If enough interest
is generated I will restart the list. Please let me know
you are interested and the positions or starting up the
Provincial Maillist again.

Vale,

Sextus Cornelius Cotta

Propraetor
America Medioccidentalis Superior Province
Nova Roma

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Absence
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Hirtius=20Helveticus?=" <hirtius75ch@yahoo.de>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:05:52 +0100 (CET)

Salvete Quirites!

Due to my annual air force reserve training, I will be
away from Feb. 3rd until 22nd. Therefore, I won't be
able to serve as Rogator during that period. My fellow
rogatores are informed.

Just to let you, my fellow citizens, know.

Valete bene,

=====
A. Hirtius Helveticus
-------------------------
"Res Romana Dei est, terrenis non eget armis."
(Corippus, In laudem Iustini 3, 328)
-------------------------
http://www.hirtius.ch.tt/
-------------------------

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:06:39 +0100 (MET)

Salve,Caie!

As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of the
United States. If we long for the construction of Nova Roma, we will have to
consider not to take too many modern thoughts into it. They are "unroman". We
cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking what
we like and leaving behind what we don't like. One of our main goals is the
reinstitution of the romanitas. We will have to change our minds a little to
reach that. In fact, not only a little.

Vale,

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tribune

I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from
France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures,
and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe.

In America, you can be a garbage man one day, a multi-millionaire the next,
and then the NEXT day be homeless on the streets. We don't limit a person by
their birth or family. We judge them by merit. What they can produce. One can
move between the "classes" so easily that we simply have no use for the
concept, except for tax purposes. Our top general and Secretary of State, Colin
Powell, is a second generation American from a dirt poor immigrant Jamaican
family. But I consider him, if anything, of the highest "patrician" class. Not
because of his name. Because he earned it. With real life hard work over an
entire lifetime. He didn't start a website. He didn't change his name or get
adopted into a rich family. That is why I find the concept of being
"patrician" because you were first or you joined the right family to be so odious

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] "Seven Are Gone"
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:06:49 -0800 (PST)

Pipar--I am linking to your poem from my Livejournal.
That was beautiful!

---
Renata Corva
http://aerden.livejournal.com

=====
Chantal
http://www.theranweyr.org

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:13:51 +0100 (MET)

Salve,
>>I prefer being a pleb, also. I admire, historically, those men who were
plebs are fought for the plebeian cause. The patricians ran the Republic into
the ground.<<

As a historian I have to say that it seems to me that you don't know very
much about how rome was ruled and what the role of the "plebeians" was, for
example like the Gracchi. I would suggest that you read Syme before making more
of these "historically" statements.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:22:57 -0600

Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically" statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve,
>>I prefer being a pleb, also. I admire, historically, those men who were
plebs are fought for the plebeian cause. The patricians ran the Republic into
the ground.<<

As a historian I have to say that it seems to me that you don't know very
much about how rome was ruled and what the role of the "plebeians" was, for
example like the Gracchi. I would suggest that you read Syme before making more
of these "historically" statements.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:27:09 +0100

Salve Gai Basilicate,
<< I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures, and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe. >>

Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States herself, by the way (but has Italian roots).

Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Welcome to Sextus Iulius (Quo Vadis?)
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:35:15 -0000

Salve Sextus Iulius!

> > I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
> Welcome!

I'd like to welcome you, too, my friend. It's good to see you here
at last!

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:36:09 -0600

Ave Saturninus!

"As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of theUnited States."

I never suggested that. However, we need to take into account the sensibilities of the citizens of our Macronations.

"We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."

Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in some way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class distinction, so dear to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing privilege.

"We will have to change our minds a little to reach that. In fact, not only a little"

Perhaps. But I will continue to use soap and toliet paper. Nobody else's ass-sponge is coming near my butt.

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve,Caie!

As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of the
United States. If we long for the construction of Nova Roma, we will have to
consider not to take too many modern thoughts into it. They are "unroman". We
cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking what
we like and leaving behind what we don't like. One of our main goals is the
reinstitution of the romanitas. We will have to change our minds a little to
reach that. In fact, not only a little.

Vale,

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tribune

I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from
France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures,
and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe.

In America, you can be a garbage man one day, a multi-millionaire the next,
and then the NEXT day be homeless on the streets. We don't limit a person by
their birth or family. We judge them by merit. What they can produce. One can
move between the "classes" so easily that we simply have no use for the
concept, except for tax purposes. Our top general and Secretary of State, Colin
Powell, is a second generation American from a dirt poor immigrant Jamaican
family. But I consider him, if anything, of the highest "patrician" class. Not
because of his name. Because he earned it. With real life hard work over an
entire lifetime. He didn't start a website. He didn't change his name or get
adopted into a rich family. That is why I find the concept of being
"patrician" because you were first or you joined the right family to be so odious

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:37:42 -0600

Ave Solaris

Oh.

We still need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis

Salve Gai Basilicate,
<< I've looked at your profile and read your backround. You are either from France, Belgium or the Netherlands. You all have pretty rigid class structures, and its difficult to move between the classes for the average European Joe. >>

Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States herself, by the way (but has Italian roots).

Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:20:16 +0100 (MET)

Salve,
I did not intend to insult you. I simply have the impression that you are
overidealizing rome. It is great that you have the ability to interpret ptimary
sources (which, by the way?) and that you are able to prove all historians
that wrote after Syme about these topics wrong in one sentence. I wish I had
that ability. By the way, I am quite sure that you are proud about your
degree, but I always have the impression that a degree does not say anything about
one's abilities. Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigend/ruled and who those
people were that did it?

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and
Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is
a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to
read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically"
statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:30:27 +0100 (MET)

Salve,

"As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of
theUnited States."

I never suggested that. However, we need to take into account the
sensibilities of the citizens of our Macronations.

>>>And who is the one that speaks for them? You? Let them speak for
themselves, If they are concerned.

"We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking
what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."

Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in some
way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class distinction, so dear
to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing privilege.

>>> Because that's the way things are in life. And were in ancient rome.
There are everywhere people that are more priviledged than others. At least
through their posessions. Rich/poor, you understand? Sounds to me like a
communist-revolution you want to start here... :)

"We will have to change our minds a little to reach that. In fact, not only
a little"

Perhaps. But I will continue to use soap and toliet paper. Nobody else's
ass-sponge is coming near my butt.

>>> Oh, of course you will. Great Argument.

And we need a plan.

>>>Why? For what? And if we need one, provide one and the community will
discuss it.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

P.S.: "class" is a economic term from Karl Marx. With all your degrees you
should actually know that it does not make sense to use it for ancient rome or
even Nova Roma.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:42:21 -0800 (PST)

Salve Gaius Basilicatus,

First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of having
a city where our citizens can live. Our goal is
similar to what the Catholic Church realized in 1929,
a small administrative forum that is the focus of the
Religio and our culture. We wish to aquire at least
108 acres for this purpose. Once we aquire this land
it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
living quaters for those who want to relocate to the
forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair to
expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
realize that dream.

The Catholic Church has never had a goal of having
large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
The Vatican is the administrative center for Catholics
living all over the world. Our goal is to achive the
same status, an administrative center, not an
independant city.

Since we have citizens who wish to aquire land near
the forum, I have sugested that we attempt to aquire a
much larger plot of land than we need for the forum. I
Have sugested that we aquire 1000 acres, set aside 200
for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in one
acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
the purchase. This will require a higher inital
outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
the treasury that can be used to start construction.
One thing has to be made clear though. These plots
will not be part of a city of Nova Roma. They will be
like owning land in the city of Roma near the Vatican,
they will remain under the control of some modern
nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.

As for the orders, they are needed to maintain the
ancient system of government, and there are some
offices in the Religio that are only open to
Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is not
only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
reason Nova Roma was founded.

As for publications, Nova Roma has sponsered an
offical publication, the Eagle and sponsers some mail
lists. Nova Roma inc. is responsible for any finical
and/or legal obligations stemming from these services,
and as long as Nova Roma inc. holds theese
responsibilites she has to maintain some control over
them. Citizens are free to start new mail lists or a
new newsletter if they wish to assume full
resonsibility for any costs involved in maintaining
them.

--- Gaius Basilicatus Agricola <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
wrote:
> Ave Senatus Populusque Romanus:
>
> I spend a lot of time with Nova Roma. My free time.
> I've pledged not insignificant amounts of money to
> it also. Reading through an average of 30 e-mails a
> day. I am dedicated to the idea of Nova Roma, and
> like many of my fellow citizens dream of a day, in
> my lifetime, when I can walk down the streets of a
> Nova Roman city. However, I feel that under the
> current leadership that this dream will not be
> realized.
>
> For what Nova Roma is now, the leadership is fine.
> But for a group of people who, for the most part,
> have never had any face to face contact, how on
> earth do we have 66 laws? Innumerable Senatus
> Consultums? Endless petty debates about meaningless
> nothings by e-mail. If this is to be a real world
> project, I want to see some real world action.
>
> What does that mean? That means we need a plan. A
> realistic plan. A plan that involves significant
> amounts of fund raising. A long term outlook. Long
> term goals with short term ideas to implement those
> long term goals. A five year plan with goals to be
> met. A three year plan with goals to be met. A one
> year plan with goals to be met.
>
> And I want proven leaders to head up those goals. I
> want the goals to be realistic. Here's an example. I
> was given the task of "rating" North America's
> suitability for land purchase to eventually be
> turned into our sovereign nation. Part of the rating
> included infrastructure, water, education, taxes,
> etc. I was to give each category a rating between
> one and ten. Now, North America includes Canada,
> Mexico, and the 48 contiguous states of the US. Each
> one as different as apple pie and pizza. Not to
> mention the troublesome fact that America, Canada,
> and Mexico will never, ever, never, ever, never,
> ever ever ever let a sovereign nation exist on their
> soil. While the project was well thought out in and
> of itself, it was patently unrealistic.
>
> So, my request, to the Senate and other leaders, is
> for a plan. A 5-3-1 year plan. I want our goals and
> our society to be realistic. This class division of
> patricians and plebeians is odious. It destroyed the
> Republic. I want a vote on the issue: The abolition
> of class division. As I was reminded today, 2000
> plus years have passed since the Republic existed.
> Whilst we have saw fit to ban sexism, I find it
> diabolically ironic that we divide ourselves, on
> purpose, into classes.
>
> Our publications should be free from Senatorial
> supervision and funding. Government has no business
> in regulating, on any level, the media. While those
> in some European countries would disagree, well,
> trust me, its better not to have your government
> regulating your media. I want a vote on that issue.
>
> And we need a plan.
>
> Appoint a commission. Do what you do. Give us plan.
> Show us the way. Lead us.
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The LaSalle Law Office
> 417 East 13th Street
> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
> (816).471.2111
> (816).510.0072(cell)
> (816).471.8412(Fax)
> The information contained in this e-mail message is
> attorney privileged and confidential information
> intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity named. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
> responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient,
> you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please immediately notify
> the sender by using the contact information in the
> "reply to" field above and return the original
> message to the sender. Thank you.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@hotmail.com>" <theladysabine@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 18:22:04 -0000

Avete Basilicate et Omnes.

I apologise for my long-windedness in advance, but I have a lot on my
mind after having read the Quo Vadis posts.

Go ahead, restrict the role of women in order to resurrect Roma Vera.
However, you might alienate more than a few of the feminae illustriae
in our country. They are so numerous I cannot list them all and tell
you their individiual merits, but seeing as how you spend so much
time here, then you know who they are and why they are so good for
Nova Roma. Alienate the women, products of the modern world who have
come here and taken up positions at the ropes which pull this state
along, and you may very well have a Men's Republic for Men, and Of
Men Only Populated. Because I do not think they would tolerate such
abuse by staying. If one cannot suffer the "inane insults" of others,
then they shouldn't be expected to do so either.

We read the website and the Constitution before we join (I hope), and
I at least spent a day or two thinking of which gens I wanted to
apply for. I had an equal number of Plebian and Patrician gens on my
list. The deciding factor was not whether Patrician or Plebian, as I
saw in Nova Roma that didn't seem to matter in how individuals were
treated or respected, but what gods each Gens held dear and
subsequently what it seemed they valued, and the Gens Minucia fit
perfectly with my own self.

Under the stern but loving gaze of Minerva I have made my way in this
world before ever I found Nova Roma; her brothers, Mars and Mithras,
are the gods of those soldiers who carried Old Rome on their backs
across the Continent and over waters which, with the blessings of
Oceanus, they crossed without fail; and when the battles ended, they
more often then not turned to Bacchus for relief from the gravities
of war and the horrific carnage on the field. And if we do not turn
to wine all the time, then at least we take a page from his book and
try to start laughing again when the tears are all spent.

I am proud to be a Minucia not because it is a Patrician family, but
because our Paterfamilias Marcus Minucius Audens is an intelligent,
fair, respectable, and respected man. Before we had been conversing
long, he welcomed me into the state with great enthusiasm, and he has
reassured me more than once that "This too shall pass" when a
particularly nasty argument on the message board upset me. I am also
looking forward to meeting Gaius Minucius Hadrianus before too long,
as we will both be attending gallery talks at the MFA in Boston soon.
>From what I have seen of them and of my other brothers and sisters in
the Gens Minucia who were involved in Nova Roma before my arrival, I
am not only proud to be a Minucia, but I am honoured. I can only hope
that I won't be an embarrassment to them when they've actually met me.

If we all promise that Plebians in the homestead of Nova Roma will be
treated according to their merit as citizens and not according to
their (may I remind us all) CHOSEN "class" (once again I use that
word loosely), and that the Plebians will not be given the short end
of the stick in any way shape or form, may we leave off this going-
nowhere discussion and continue on with the Quo Vadis Project (I do
like that name, though)? To tell you the truth, I do not have the
allotment of Gentes committed to memory, and when I read the name of
a citizen on the board I do not know whether they are Patrician or
Plebian at a glance, unless the name is historically obvious or
personally familiar. To me, the difference between the two "classes",
if there exacts any in practice at all, is negligible.

We need lots of plans, and if you are interested in a certain one
then I suggest that those most intrigued get moving and start coming
up with ideas and the skeleton for what should be included in the 5-3-
1 plan. Seeing as how I am neither a student nor a lover of
governmental or public works workings, then I believe I shall sit
this one out until a component of it comes along to which I may give
my talent and my all. For instance, I think any physical Nova Roma
needs a library or a museum, or both, and when we start
theorhetically building those I will start raising my hand a little
more often. When I am not at university anymore and may more
completely devote myself to the state, I am thinking of persuing a
position in one of the Temples. But I will not do the state or the
gods any injustices by committing myself to more than I can handle at
the moment I commit myself. Until then, I will content myself on the
sidelines, where I will be out of everyone else's way.

And now, I take myself back to the sandwich that I left off making to
come and post.

Horatia Minucia Caesar

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@hotmail.com>" <theladysabine@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 18:31:47 -0000

Slight amendment is due to my already long post. One realises in
retrospect that it is unwise to work at a computer when one's glasses
are not on or contacts are not in. The great Bacchus, Father of
Mirth, is not a patron god of the Minuciae, but has the good fortune
to be held by the Modiae, the Gens which follows us alphabetically.

HMC

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:30:35 -0500

On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:36:09AM -0600, James LaSalle wrote:
>
> "We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only
> picking what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."
>
> Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in
> some way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class
> distinction, so dear to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing
> privilege.

What privilege, exactly, are you imagining here? You seem to have some
skewed picture of what patrician and plebeian means here in Nova Roma,
and are stumping on this issue to promote your own ends - unrelated as
they may be to the point. If you believe that the way to promote your
goals is to continually attack a large part of the Nova Roman society, I
suggest you do a bit of rethinking.

> And we need a plan.

You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you
don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become tedious.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nil desperandum!
Never despair!
-- Horace, "Carmina"

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:02:51 -0600

Ave Scaevola!

I'll drop the issue about class distinctions. You win.

Now, to your personal insults.

"You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become tedious"

So your saying we don't need a plan? Thanks for your input. Its good to know where you stand. As far as being comparable to Cato, I never said I was. You know nothing about me. You don't know my experiences, my accomplishments, and where I come from. Therefore, your every utterance on the subject is an admission of your ignorance.

I never liked Cato, anyway.

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:36:09AM -0600, James LaSalle wrote:
>
> "We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only
> picking what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."
>
> Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in
> some way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class
> distinction, so dear to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing
> privilege.

What privilege, exactly, are you imagining here? You seem to have some
skewed picture of what patrician and plebeian means here in Nova Roma,
and are stumping on this issue to promote your own ends - unrelated as
they may be to the point. If you believe that the way to promote your
goals is to continually attack a large part of the Nova Roman society, I
suggest you do a bit of rethinking.

> And we need a plan.

You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you
don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become tedious.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nil desperandum!
Never despair!
-- Horace, "Carmina"

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?William=20Cornett=20Polanco?= <sxtus_iulius_serranus@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:20:01 +0100 (CET)

Ave Diana Moravia Aventina and citizens of Nova Roma!
Thank you so much for welcoming me to Nova Roma! This is just the beginnina of a wonderful experience! What I wrote yesterday is simply how I feel. I am not formally educated in Classical Studies. I have only studied on my own. I don't think it takes a degree to know how what you believe in. I joined the Gens Iulia because of my admiration of Julius Caesar. You are right, my Materfamilias is wonderful. I am very lucky. If we were to strictly adhere to tradition (and tradition is something I believe in) then I would have a Paterfamilias, but I agree there have to be some modifications, although minor. I have read the comments on the differences between those of us residing in America and Europe. How funny. If I wanted to become a part of a "New America" I would have joined such a group. I have chosen to become a part of Nova Roma instead. Like you, I have lived in America and Europe (not to mention Latin America!) and have been priviledged to have been exposed to different cultures. I must admit that the last time I looked on a map I found Rome to be in Europe :-)! I must admit that I do like all the opinions I have read. My mind has not been so stimulated in years! Once again I have to say that let us all begin our journey on the path to a Nova Roma by educating ourselves more on the subject (no offense to those already formally educated in this already) and unite in this manner. I for one would like to see Latin reinstated as a living language! I can't wait to begin. Diana Moravia Aventina you are a wonder! I can understand why Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia chose to be in your in Gens. As a matter of fact she was the first person I came in contact with even before I was accepted to Nova Roma. i will always be grateful to her for that. I have met others here from America to Spain can say that these citizens of Nova Roma are truly a special group of people! Take care and I look forward to corresponding with you again.

Sextus Iulius Serranus
Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:Salve Sextus Iulius Serranus,

> I have recently become a citizen of Nova Roma <snip>
Welcome! You're lucky to be in Gens Iulia with an angel for a Materfamilias,
Iulia Vopisca! In fact, if I could go back in time, I would have requested
to join Gens Iulia in 1999, not because it is a patrician gens, but because
of the Iulian's relationship to Venus.

lots of snips in accordance with our list guidelines :-) :
>I don't think anyone should think too deeply about this.
>The social <distinctions are merely historical! We all have our different
levels in society as it is. ><Traditions should be kept.
>I belong to a Patrician Gens and think no less of those belonging to a
Plebian Gens.

I've snipped a lot for brevity's sake, but I agree with you.
I can understand why citizens wouldn't want NR to be an exact replica of
Rome, complete with slavery, prostitution and tenements but I like the idea
of Patricians and Plebeians in NR. Nova Roma would seem very un-Roman like
if we got rid of our 'class' system, even though in reality it is pretty
much in name only.

And if we got rid of the classes, we would have to change the way our
government worked and so forth. Once we start eliminating the Roman
Traditions that are currently in place, it could eventually lead us to a
Nova Roma that has no resemblance to ancient Rome besides us using Roman
names....

So let's keep our Roman traditions alive--I thought that's why we are all
here?

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

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---------------------------------
Yahoo! Móviles
Personaliza tu móvil con tu logo y melodķa favorito

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] From a new Citizen...
From:	"Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar" <sentium@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:51:42 +0100

Ave Fratres Cives!

I'm a new Citizen from Italy, Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar, and I'd like to thank you all and explain my happiness becaming one of your great and wonderful community!!
In my life I always be interested in roman culture and history, including all the arts like music, painting, buildings and military and recently i found also cookery in roman style....
I hope i can give all my experience and goodwill to "my Community" that I fell like mine...
"Roma Caput Mundi" wasnt' only a phrase... was a way of thinking against the darkness of ignorance of the ancient world...

Thank you all my fellows!!!

Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 20:09:45 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...> >
>And we need a plan.

Salve,

Do you have a plan or all you bringing to the table of Nova Roma is
cream of carping criticism?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:10:02 -0600

Ave Caesar!

Great response. Not long winded at all and very insightful. I think its funny, however, how vitriolic some patricians' arguments become defend their class standing.

I shouldn't have put it in the quo vadis post. It detracted from my main point which is:

We need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@hotmail.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?

Avete Basilicate et Omnes.

I apologise for my long-windedness in advance, but I have a lot on my
mind after having read the Quo Vadis posts.

Go ahead, restrict the role of women in order to resurrect Roma Vera.
However, you might alienate more than a few of the feminae illustriae
in our country. They are so numerous I cannot list them all and tell
you their individiual merits, but seeing as how you spend so much
time here, then you know who they are and why they are so good for
Nova Roma. Alienate the women, products of the modern world who have
come here and taken up positions at the ropes which pull this state
along, and you may very well have a Men's Republic for Men, and Of
Men Only Populated. Because I do not think they would tolerate such
abuse by staying. If one cannot suffer the "inane insults" of others,
then they shouldn't be expected to do so either.

We read the website and the Constitution before we join (I hope), and
I at least spent a day or two thinking of which gens I wanted to
apply for. I had an equal number of Plebian and Patrician gens on my
list. The deciding factor was not whether Patrician or Plebian, as I
saw in Nova Roma that didn't seem to matter in how individuals were
treated or respected, but what gods each Gens held dear and
subsequently what it seemed they valued, and the Gens Minucia fit
perfectly with my own self.

Under the stern but loving gaze of Minerva I have made my way in this
world before ever I found Nova Roma; her brothers, Mars and Mithras,
are the gods of those soldiers who carried Old Rome on their backs
across the Continent and over waters which, with the blessings of
Oceanus, they crossed without fail; and when the battles ended, they
more often then not turned to Bacchus for relief from the gravities
of war and the horrific carnage on the field. And if we do not turn
to wine all the time, then at least we take a page from his book and
try to start laughing again when the tears are all spent.

I am proud to be a Minucia not because it is a Patrician family, but
because our Paterfamilias Marcus Minucius Audens is an intelligent,
fair, respectable, and respected man. Before we had been conversing
long, he welcomed me into the state with great enthusiasm, and he has
reassured me more than once that "This too shall pass" when a
particularly nasty argument on the message board upset me. I am also
looking forward to meeting Gaius Minucius Hadrianus before too long,
as we will both be attending gallery talks at the MFA in Boston soon.
From what I have seen of them and of my other brothers and sisters in
the Gens Minucia who were involved in Nova Roma before my arrival, I
am not only proud to be a Minucia, but I am honoured. I can only hope
that I won't be an embarrassment to them when they've actually met me.

If we all promise that Plebians in the homestead of Nova Roma will be
treated according to their merit as citizens and not according to
their (may I remind us all) CHOSEN "class" (once again I use that
word loosely), and that the Plebians will not be given the short end
of the stick in any way shape or form, may we leave off this going-
nowhere discussion and continue on with the Quo Vadis Project (I do
like that name, though)? To tell you the truth, I do not have the
allotment of Gentes committed to memory, and when I read the name of
a citizen on the board I do not know whether they are Patrician or
Plebian at a glance, unless the name is historically obvious or
personally familiar. To me, the difference between the two "classes",
if there exacts any in practice at all, is negligible.

We need lots of plans, and if you are interested in a certain one
then I suggest that those most intrigued get moving and start coming
up with ideas and the skeleton for what should be included in the 5-3-
1 plan. Seeing as how I am neither a student nor a lover of
governmental or public works workings, then I believe I shall sit
this one out until a component of it comes along to which I may give
my talent and my all. For instance, I think any physical Nova Roma
needs a library or a museum, or both, and when we start
theorhetically building those I will start raising my hand a little
more often. When I am not at university anymore and may more
completely devote myself to the state, I am thinking of persuing a
position in one of the Temples. But I will not do the state or the
gods any injustices by committing myself to more than I can handle at
the moment I commit myself. Until then, I will content myself on the
sidelines, where I will be out of everyone else's way.

And now, I take myself back to the sandwich that I left off making to
come and post.

Horatia Minucia Caesar

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:18:50 -0800 (PST)

Sovete omnes--

Someone said:

What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall
of money to us? And he > wants to start his own
family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks
for the cash?"

Renata replies:

I don't see what would be the problem with that.
Anyone who troubles to read the website presumably
understands that only the first 30 gentes of Nova Roma
are considered 'patrician.'

Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.

Anyone who would expect to become a patrician by dint
of donating money is frankly not the sort of person I
would want in Nova Roma.

---
Renata Corva

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:21:35 -0600

Ave.

If you don't think you're insulting me, then English must be a second language for you.

I don't want to debate whether or not the patricians were at fault for the fall of the Republic. Forget I ever said it. If you're happy with the way things are, great. See you for the grand opening of downtown Nova Roma around 2406 AD.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve,
I did not intend to insult you. I simply have the impression that you are
overidealizing rome. It is great that you have the ability to interpret ptimary
sources (which, by the way?) and that you are able to prove all historians
that wrote after Syme about these topics wrong in one sentence. I wish I had
that ability. By the way, I am quite sure that you are proud about your
degree, but I always have the impression that a degree does not say anything about
one's abilities. Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigend/ruled and who those
people were that did it?

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and
Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is
a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to
read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically"
statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:22:21 -0600

and we need a plan

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve,
I did not intend to insult you. I simply have the impression that you are
overidealizing rome. It is great that you have the ability to interpret ptimary
sources (which, by the way?) and that you are able to prove all historians
that wrote after Syme about these topics wrong in one sentence. I wish I had
that ability. By the way, I am quite sure that you are proud about your
degree, but I always have the impression that a degree does not say anything about
one's abilities. Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigend/ruled and who those
people were that did it?

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

Ave Tarquitis

I will not suffer your inane insults. I have degree in Ancient History and
Classical languages. I studied Ancient legal Histroy in law school. History is
a matter of interpretation, and that is how I interpret it. I don't need to
read any of your secondary resource authors before I make my "historically"
statements.

Read some primary resources, and then pop off.

And we need a plan.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:27:42 -0600

Ave Calvus:

Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you happy to be stuck in our present quagmire of mediocrity?

If I seem like I'm criticizing, I apologize. All I ask for is a consensus on the need for a plan. Is that too difficult to comprehend? Does asking for leadership from our leaders a point to get angry about? If it is, this project is still-born.

This is depressing.

And we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus (Big Tuna) Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 2:09 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...> >
>And we need a plan.

Salve,

Do you have a plan or all you bringing to the table of Nova Roma is
cream of carping criticism?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:24:21 -0500

On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 02:02:51PM -0600, James LaSalle wrote:
> Ave Scaevola!

Ave, Agricola -

> I'll drop the issue about class distinctions. You win.
>
> Now, to your personal insults.

If you see the truth as an insult, you're often going to be insulted.

> "You'd have to be Cato Sr. to bring this one off... and I'm afraid you
> don't qualify. As it stands, the repetition has already become
> tedious"
>
> So your saying we don't need a plan? Thanks for your input.

I don't consider the disjointed mass of misinformation, ignorance,
rudeness, and personal attacks that you've presented here worthy of
input; therefore I gave none. Nova Roma has many plans; fortunately - at
least in my opinion - you have had no hand in the making of any of them.

> Its good
> to know where you stand.

You have not the slightest idea of where I stand; pretending that you do
does not make it true.

> As far as being comparable to Cato, I never
> said I was.

Neither has anyone else, I'd wager.

> You know nothing about me. You don't know my experiences,
> my accomplishments, and where I come from. Therefore, your every
> utterance on the subject is an admission of your ignorance.

Why would I care about you to that degree? What I see of you on this
list is what I'm responding to, and that does not seem worthy of
serious consideration, Roman pimps, your "plans", etc. included.

> I never liked Cato, anyway.

And yet, you attempt - unsuccessfully - to mimic him. Imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery; shall we add insincerity to your list of
publicly exposed traits?

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ridentem dicere verum, quid vetat?
What prohibits us to tell the truth laughing (through a joke)?
-- Horace, "Satirae"

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:37:01 -0600

Ave

You're right.

But we need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Chantal G. Whittington
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 2:18 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Sovete omnes--

Someone said:

What if some rich guy/gal wants to donate a windfall
of money to us? And he > wants to start his own
family? What do we tell him? "Thank you, kind sir.
> Uh, you know, you WILL be a plebeian. But thanks
for the cash?"

Renata replies:

I don't see what would be the problem with that.
Anyone who troubles to read the website presumably
understands that only the first 30 gentes of Nova Roma
are considered 'patrician.'

Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.

Anyone who would expect to become a patrician by dint
of donating money is frankly not the sort of person I
would want in Nova Roma.

---
Renata Corva

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:37:36 -0600

Ave Bacchus!

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@hotmail.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:31 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?

Slight amendment is due to my already long post. One realises in
retrospect that it is unwise to work at a computer when one's glasses
are not on or contacts are not in. The great Bacchus, Father of
Mirth, is not a patron god of the Minuciae, but has the good fortune
to be held by the Modiae, the Gens which follows us alphabetically.

HMC


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 20:59:22 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> Ave Calvus:
>
> Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you happy to be stuck in
our present quagmire of mediocrity?

Salve,

If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a quagmire of
mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to
the last public figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do
with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the buying of 2076
lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and hope to auction
them off later at a profit? Go out to flea markets and yard sales
hoping to find that missing Monet or some other priceless piece of
art long thought lost?

Remember this is a voluntary organization, if one is really unhappy
one can volunteer to leave.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:03:10 -0600

Ave Tarquitis

Your thinly veiled insults are always a delight to read.

"And who is the one that speaks for them? You? Let them speak for themselves, If they are concerned."

I guess I do speak for them. For the most part, only the patricians have got their panties in a bunch about losing their status. Man, just forget it. You guys deserve to be called "patricians". Enjoy.

"Because that's the way things are in life. And were in ancient rome. There are everywhere people that are more priviledged than others. At least through their posessions. Rich/poor, you understand? Sounds to me like a communist-revolution you want to start here... :)"

You mean there are poor people?!?! Some people have more than others? Are you sure about this? I thought my pro bono clients just chose to live in squalor because they were geneticaly predipoded to being derelicts, or they liked it. Hmm. I'll look into this further.

Communism. heh. What Nova Roma has now is more like communism than what I propose. What I propose is an equal starting point where those who want to achieve and serve will rise. A meritocracy. If your saying the Republic was perfect, and there is no way to improve upon it, then you underestimate, well, all of us. The patrician/plebeian division never struck me as a selling point for the Republic.

"Oh, of course you will. Great Argument."

Thanks. Just trying to lighten the mood. However, you'd be surprised at some of the radical ideas about the day to day reconstruction some of our founders hold.

The fantastical nature of our general dream here attracted me to Nova Roma. It just might become real. But I sometimes wondered: Would the kind of people who would be attracted to this dream lack the neccessary real life skills to pul it off? My answer is "no". Everyone I've met here is extraordinarily intelligent and talented. We just need a plan!!!

WE NEED A PLAN!!!

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: caiustarquitius@gmx.de
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve,

"As far as I understood Nova Roma it is not supposed to be a model of
theUnited States."

I never suggested that. However, we need to take into account the
sensibilities of the citizens of our Macronations.

>>>And who is the one that speaks for them? You? Let them speak for
themselves, If they are concerned.

"We cannot pick always the raisins out of the burned cake, thus only picking
what we like and leaving behind what we don't like."

Why not? Everyone involved in Nova Roma is intelligent and talented in some
way. Surely we can think of a way to preserve this class distinction, so dear
to the patricians, without arbitrarliy bestowing privilege.

>>> Because that's the way things are in life. And were in ancient rome.
There are everywhere people that are more priviledged than others. At least
through their posessions. Rich/poor, you understand? Sounds to me like a
communist-revolution you want to start here... :)

"We will have to change our minds a little to reach that. In fact, not only
a little"

Perhaps. But I will continue to use soap and toliet paper. Nobody else's
ass-sponge is coming near my butt.

>>> Oh, of course you will. Great Argument.

And we need a plan.

>>>Why? For what? And if we need one, provide one and the community will
discuss it.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

P.S.: "class" is a economic term from Karl Marx. With all your degrees you
should actually know that it does not make sense to use it for ancient rome or
even Nova Roma.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Damn...
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 16:05:59 -0500

On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 08:20:08PM -0600, Pipar - Steven wrote:

Salve, Venator -

> Salus et Fortuna Omnes,
>
> Just got home from work, to the news of the shuttle Columbia and her crew...
>
> Damn...

You've brought tears to my eyes, friend Venator. Thank you for this
beauty in the midst of grief.

> In this regard, all will recall
> Darkness of day, brightness of death
> Better still is, bringing to mind
> Names they did build, Fame they did have

Cattle die, Kinsmen die, Cattle die, Kinsmen die,
You, yourself, shall likewise die, You, yourself, shall likewise die,
But word fame never dies But one thing that shall never die
For he who achieves it well. Are the stories of deeds well done.
-- The Song of Odin, AD 76-77

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mens agitat molem.
The mind moves the matter.
-- Vergil, "Aenis"

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:10:49 -0600

Ave Calvus:

"If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a quagmire of mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Alright. Nevermind. Forget I said anything.

When is the new "Gladiator" movie coming out?

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 2:59 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> Ave Calvus:
>
> Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you happy to be stuck in
our present quagmire of mediocrity?

Salve,

If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a quagmire of
mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to
the last public figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do
with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the buying of 2076
lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and hope to auction
them off later at a profit? Go out to flea markets and yard sales
hoping to find that missing Monet or some other priceless piece of
art long thought lost?

Remember this is a voluntary organization, if one is really unhappy
one can volunteer to leave.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:19:25 -0800 (PST)

--- "quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>"
<richmal@attbi.com> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle"
> <jlasalle@k...>
> wrote:
> > Ave Calvus:
> >
> > Sure, I got a plan. You got a plan, or are you
> happy to be stuck in
> our present quagmire of mediocrity?
>
> Salve,
>
> If you have a plan, let's hear it. I don't see a
> quagmire of
> mediocrity. What I see is fiscal reality. The
> treasury according to
> the last public figures contains a whooping
> $2076.85. What can we do
> with that? Perhaps the Senate could authorize the
> buying of 2076
> lottery tickets? Buy some collectables on Ebay and
> hope to auction
> them off later at a profit? Go out to flea markets
> and yard sales
> hoping to find that missing Monet or some other
> priceless piece of
> art long thought lost?
>
> Remember this is a voluntary organization, if one is
> really unhappy
> one can volunteer to leave.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus

I'll tell you one thing we couldn't do. Pay the taxes
and insurance costs involved in owning land. If
someone offered to give us 108 acres of land for a
forum today, we would have to turn that offer down
because we wouldn't be able to afford the taxes and
insurance.

A Plan?
One that got most of our citizens to pay thier taxes
would be a good start, because until that happens we
can't afford land, not even donated land.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-Stoic)
From:	"Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus" <ahenobarbus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 13:35:44 -0800

Omnibus SPD
So glad to be back on this list after 1)vacation 2)a protrcated illness and
death in my family and 3)my e-mail acct being closed down and being cut off
from this list. It has taken MONTHS (since September of last year) to get
back here. Glad to see 95 msgs in my inbox, but none from Sodalitas
Militarum, has there been no activity there, or am I still not reactivated
there?

As per the tragedy in the sky, I am quite thrilled to see that Nova Romans
have been so touched, and that some Nova Romans seem quite intent on the
stars being the next region for humanity's conquest. I hope to see you all
at LaGrange point 5 some day.
G Cornelius Ahenobarbus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
From:	"biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>" <biojournalism@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 21:45:55 -0000

Savete Omnes:

According to Jungian personality types as related to the MBTI (Myers-
Briggs Type Indicator), ancient Rome was ESTJ as far as the
personality of a city goes--extroverted, sensing, thinking,
judging....that is practical, concrete, detailed, planning, factual,
methodical, organized, rational, judging, and mathematical in a
practical way. (Extroverted thinking focused on planning and
practical solutions).

The opposite type of personality was Athens, ENFP--extroverted,
intuitive, abstract, theoretical, introverted feeling in art and
music, expressive, probing, exploring, and focused on creativity in
art, philsophy, music, and mathematics. (In spite of what happened
to most scientists who went against introverted feeling of the
people)....ENFP is like a bubbling fountain focused on broadcasting
the news to colonies or others.

The US is said to be ISTJ--introverted, sensing, thinking, judging,
the type of the engineer, dentist, and accountant, census takers and
bean counters.

Even cities have personality types--Washington, ISTJ. San Francisco
ENFP. What cities are most like ancient Rome--ESTJ--anywhere in the
world? (Paris is ISTJ).

By the way, are there anyone similar to me in Nova Roma? I'm a
senior citizen (visually impaired), work at home part time writing
novels and nonfiction, interested in art, psychology of ancient
peoples, and anthropology, have a masters in creative
writing/English, and also am interested in what life was like in
Ancient Rome. I'm a homebased nondriver with multiple disabilities
so don't get out much as I'm old, but I do have the chance to
collect and read novels about ancient Rome and write some. My Web
sites are at http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html/
My chief hobbies are reading about DNA and genealogy, art and poetry
of ancient Rome, and I was just wondering whether there are any
other senior citizen ladies in Nova Roma, or just me at this time.
My question is: anyone know where a site is online to learn some
Latin phrases? I live in N. California. Thanks.

Vale,

Octavia Fabia Scriba

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: From a new Citizen...
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 21:53:58 -0000

Welcome Caius Sentius!

It is good to have you here!

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar"
<sentium@h...> wrote:
> Ave Fratres Cives!
>
> I'm a new Citizen from Italy, Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar, and
I'd like to thank you all and explain my happiness becaming one of
your great and wonderful community!!
> In my life I always be interested in roman culture and history,
including all the arts like music, painting, buildings and military
and recently i found also cookery in roman style....
> I hope i can give all my experience and goodwill to "my Community"
that I fell like mine...
> "Roma Caput Mundi" wasnt' only a phrase... was a way of thinking
against the darkness of ignorance of the ancient world...
>
> Thank you all my fellows!!!
>
> Caius Sentius Maximianus Caesar
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] the Roman Times
From:	Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:04:47 -0800 (PST)

Ave Nova-Romani!

The latest issue of the Roman Times is ready for you
to enjoy, currently published at:

http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/index.html

Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

=====
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia
Accensa Ordinaria Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.gensmoravia.org

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:05:44 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Octavia Fabia.

What a nice introduction! I couldn't help myself answering your
message :-).

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "biojournalism
>biojournalism@h...>" <biojournalism@h...> wrote:
> Savete Omnes:
>
> According to Jungian personality types as related to the MBTI
> (Myers- Briggs Type Indicator), ancient Rome was ESTJ as far as the
> personality of a city goes--extroverted, sensing, thinking,
> judging....that is practical, concrete, detailed, planning,
> factual, methodical, organized, rational, judging, and mathematical
> in a practical way. (Extroverted thinking focused on planning and
> practical solutions).

That theory was a small part of my Friday exam! ;-).

> The opposite type of personality was Athens, ENFP--extroverted,
> intuitive, abstract, theoretical, introverted feeling in art and
> music, expressive, probing, exploring, and focused on creativity in
> art, philsophy, music, and mathematics. (In spite of what happened
> to most scientists who went against introverted feeling of the
> people)....ENFP is like a bubbling fountain focused on broadcasting
> the news to colonies or others.
>
> The US is said to be ISTJ--introverted, sensing, thinking, judging,
> the type of the engineer, dentist, and accountant, census takers
> and bean counters.
>
> Even cities have personality types--Washington, ISTJ. San Francisco
> ENFP. What cities are most like ancient Rome--ESTJ--anywhere in the
> world? (Paris is ISTJ).

I would classify my own hometown (Madrid) as ENFJ... Just my personal
opinion, though (there is no mathematical theory to back up all this
Jungian stuff ;-) ).

> By the way, are there anyone similar to me in Nova Roma? I'm a
> senior citizen (visually impaired), work at home part time writing
> novels and nonfiction, interested in art, psychology of ancient
> peoples, and anthropology, have a masters in creative
> writing/English, and also am interested in what life was like in
> Ancient Rome. I'm a homebased nondriver with multiple disabilities
> so don't get out much as I'm old, but I do have the chance to
> collect and read novels about ancient Rome and write some. My Web
> sites are at http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html/
> My chief hobbies are reading about DNA and genealogy, art and
> poetry of ancient Rome, and I was just wondering whether there are
> any other senior citizen ladies in Nova Roma, or just me at this
> time.

My own description goes like this: I am in my mid-twenties, and
although I have miopia, should weight 10 kilos less and have had some
hearing problems of late, I guess that I am quite fit (I play rugby
sometimes ;-) ). I am a Telecom Engineering student in his last year
(it's damn difficult here!), and I don't walk that much since I
bought a car (that might partly explain my extra 10 kilos).

I love History in all its forms and periods, and I have always had a
soft spot for Ancient Rome. I also like novels (especially historical
ones), and I am also interested in Sciences. If I hadn't studied
engineering, I would certainly have chosen something related to
genetics (Imagine! The "program" that implements living beings! Talk
about TCP/IP being interesting! ;-) ).

So I guess that we have *much* in common :-).

> My question is: anyone know where a site is online to learn some
> Latin phrases? I live in N. California. Thanks.

Have a look at these:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%
3A1999.04.0001
http://www.yourdictionary.com/languages.html
http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/index.html

CN·SALIX·ASTVR

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:20:24 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>“
>
>minimize the risks but the risks will always be there. I can only
>speak for myself, but if I had the opportunity to go up on a shuttle
>tommorow, I would take that risk.
>
Horrible tragedy yes, but in a sense we should have been expecting it. I think this is about the third disaster and comparing what is involved with space flight to the loss of life in earlier explorations, it is absurd. We should really be thinking still in the way people considered airplanes well into the late 1920s that it is a miracle when all goes well. It is a mark of how excellent the systems have been that we don't. Though I believe commercial development would push things near-Earth faster, it would be at the expense of safety. I would certainly go up, possibly even if I knew I wouldn't be coming down again. It's always puzzled me that it's not possible to fly as high as possible and then launch by rocket from there, since most of the energy is involved in take-off.

Vib. Ambroisius Caesariensis

"Some people ask 'Why are the rich rich' but try this one: 'Why are the poor poor' " - Tony Benn.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:35:41 -0800 (PST)

--- me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : “quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>“
> >
> >minimize the risks but the risks will always be
> there. I can only
> >speak for myself, but if I had the opportunity to
> go up on a shuttle
> >tommorow, I would take that risk.
> >
> Horrible tragedy yes, but in a sense we should have
> been expecting it. I think this is about the third
> disaster and comparing what is involved with space
> flight to the loss of life in earlier explorations,
> it is absurd. We should really be thinking still in
> the way people considered airplanes well into the
> late 1920s that it is a miracle when all goes well.
> It is a mark of how excellent the systems have been
> that we don't. Though I believe commercial
> development would push things near-Earth faster, it
> would be at the expense of safety. I would certainly
> go up, possibly even if I knew I wouldn't be coming
> down again. It's always puzzled me that it's not
> possible to fly as high as possible and then launch
> by rocket from there, since most of the energy is
> involved in take-off.
>
> Vib. Ambroisius Caesariensis
>
The energy requirement for a static or flying launch
is the same for any given latitude. Achiving orbit is
more a matter of attaining speed rather than just
attaining altitude. It is possible to launch a rocket
straight up that attains an altitude far higher than
the area shuttles operate in, but which will fall back
to earth because it failed to reach orbital speed.

Strangely enough a ship sitting on the ground prior to
liftoff allready has part of the velocity needed to
attain orbit. This is a function of the Earth spinning
on it's axis. At the Equator this is about 1,000 MPH
of the 17,500 MPH needed for orbital velocity. At the
Latitude American Shuttles are launced from the
Earth's rotational speed provides about 600 MPH of the
velocity need to attain orbit. As you go farther north
or south of the Equator the free speed obtained from
the Earth's rotation decreases.

So I'll have something on topic for this list, if Nova
Roma wants it's own space port we need to locate our
forum as close to the Equator as possible to take
advantage of the free velocity it would give our space
craft. ;o)

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:51:09 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “Chantal G. Whittington“ <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
>
>Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
>significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
>more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
>it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
>to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
>the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.
>
This is the real point about the status issue. The distinction changed during the Republic and became moribund under the Empire anyway. It only matters if one class has real privilege over the other whether that class is named as such or not. America is something of an example here, by not having any formal class structure, it allows a rigid informal one to go unnoticed. You can bet that if a Kennedy or a Bush ends up destitute they won't stay that way for long while somebody who made it off the shack in Alabama and saw it all go wrong is likely to stay in the shack. What matters is the fact of the thing, not the name of the thing.
Most of the opinions coming out are very British in seeming to miss that distinction. They might as well be talking about hereditory titles. In most countries where they exist they confer no status, no privilege, nothing whatever, so they do no harm, a little conceit like having a coat of arms perhaps.
Rome developed. The very fact of devising a Nova Roma implies a different sort of development. If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure that does not deliver meaningful privileges.
V. Ambrosius Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Space Shuttle Columbia (Off-toic)
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 23:15:03 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, me-in-@d... wrote:
>It's always puzzled me that it's not possible to fly as high as
>possible and then launch by rocket from there, since most of the
>energy is involved in take-off.

Consider the size of the rockets used to launch a shuttle into
orbit. A plane would have to carry the weight of those rockets plus
the shuttle. Considering that the temperatures involved in a rocket
launch would instantly incinerate the plane. Even if one assumed
that somehow the plane survived the launch, the laws of physics that
demand an equal and opposite reaction for every action would pummel
the plane to the earth with the same force as the rocket at launch
time. Either way scratch one very expensive computer guided plane at
every launch, not very cost effective.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"Barry Smith" <bsmith3121@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:18:31 -0500

I have read these posts until I want to scream - so I will: WE DO NEED A PLAN!!! What are our plans for growth? Where will we be in 1 or 5 or 10 years? Every group that I have participated in has had a plan. Someone once said, and I paraphrase, if you don't know where you are going you are not going to like where you wind up. Where are we going? Where do we want to wind up? What is our plan?

Caius Titinius Varus
----- Original Message -----
From: James LaSalle
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?

Ave Caesar!

Great response. Not long winded at all and very insightful. I think its funny, however, how vitriolic some patricians' arguments become defend their class standing.

I shouldn't have put it in the quo vadis post. It detracted from my main point which is:

We need a plan.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: H Minucia Caesar <theladysabine@hotmail.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:22 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?

Avete Basilicate et Omnes.

I apologise for my long-windedness in advance, but I have a lot on my
mind after having read the Quo Vadis posts.

Go ahead, restrict the role of women in order to resurrect Roma Vera.
However, you might alienate more than a few of the feminae illustriae
in our country. They are so numerous I cannot list them all and tell
you their individiual merits, but seeing as how you spend so much
time here, then you know who they are and why they are so good for
Nova Roma. Alienate the women, products of the modern world who have
come here and taken up positions at the ropes which pull this state
along, and you may very well have a Men's Republic for Men, and Of
Men Only Populated. Because I do not think they would tolerate such
abuse by staying. If one cannot suffer the "inane insults" of others,
then they shouldn't be expected to do so either.

We read the website and the Constitution before we join (I hope), and
I at least spent a day or two thinking of which gens I wanted to
apply for. I had an equal number of Plebian and Patrician gens on my
list. The deciding factor was not whether Patrician or Plebian, as I
saw in Nova Roma that didn't seem to matter in how individuals were
treated or respected, but what gods each Gens held dear and
subsequently what it seemed they valued, and the Gens Minucia fit
perfectly with my own self.

Under the stern but loving gaze of Minerva I have made my way in this
world before ever I found Nova Roma; her brothers, Mars and Mithras,
are the gods of those soldiers who carried Old Rome on their backs
across the Continent and over waters which, with the blessings of
Oceanus, they crossed without fail; and when the battles ended, they
more often then not turned to Bacchus for relief from the gravities
of war and the horrific carnage on the field. And if we do not turn
to wine all the time, then at least we take a page from his book and
try to start laughing again when the tears are all spent.

I am proud to be a Minucia not because it is a Patrician family, but
because our Paterfamilias Marcus Minucius Audens is an intelligent,
fair, respectable, and respected man. Before we had been conversing
long, he welcomed me into the state with great enthusiasm, and he has
reassured me more than once that "This too shall pass" when a
particularly nasty argument on the message board upset me. I am also
looking forward to meeting Gaius Minucius Hadrianus before too long,
as we will both be attending gallery talks at the MFA in Boston soon.
From what I have seen of them and of my other brothers and sisters in
the Gens Minucia who were involved in Nova Roma before my arrival, I
am not only proud to be a Minucia, but I am honoured. I can only hope
that I won't be an embarrassment to them when they've actually met me.

If we all promise that Plebians in the homestead of Nova Roma will be
treated according to their merit as citizens and not according to
their (may I remind us all) CHOSEN "class" (once again I use that
word loosely), and that the Plebians will not be given the short end
of the stick in any way shape or form, may we leave off this going-
nowhere discussion and continue on with the Quo Vadis Project (I do
like that name, though)? To tell you the truth, I do not have the
allotment of Gentes committed to memory, and when I read the name of
a citizen on the board I do not know whether they are Patrician or
Plebian at a glance, unless the name is historically obvious or
personally familiar. To me, the difference between the two "classes",
if there exacts any in practice at all, is negligible.

We need lots of plans, and if you are interested in a certain one
then I suggest that those most intrigued get moving and start coming
up with ideas and the skeleton for what should be included in the 5-3-
1 plan. Seeing as how I am neither a student nor a lover of
governmental or public works workings, then I believe I shall sit
this one out until a component of it comes along to which I may give
my talent and my all. For instance, I think any physical Nova Roma
needs a library or a museum, or both, and when we start
theorhetically building those I will start raising my hand a little
more often. When I am not at university anymore and may more
completely devote myself to the state, I am thinking of persuing a
position in one of the Temples. But I will not do the state or the
gods any injustices by committing myself to more than I can handle at
the moment I commit myself. Until then, I will content myself on the
sidelines, where I will be out of everyone else's way.

And now, I take myself back to the sandwich that I left off making to
come and post.

Horatia Minucia Caesar

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Columbia Catastrophy
From:	gens.minius@club-internet.fr
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 00:29:11 CET

Salvete Quirites.

All Gens Minia joint with the pain of the whole world for the tragic loss of our friends (explorers of the sky). That the gods bless them and place them for always in stars in order to eternally remaining in our reports. All our love for the families of the victims and the friends of these heroes in the whole world.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

Caļus Minius Messala Bellator
(Paterfamilias of the Gens Minia)
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Civis Gallia Provinciae
Civis Plebiae Novae Romae, Optima Maxima

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:48:54 EST

In a message dated 2/2/2003 6:19:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bsmith3121@msn.com writes:

> I have read these posts until I want to scream - so I will: WE DO NEED A
> PLAN!!! What are our plans for growth? Where will we be in 1 or 5 or 10
> years? Every group that I have participated in has had a plan. Someone once
> said, and I paraphrase, if you don't know where you are going you are not
> going to like where you wind up. Where are we going? Where do we want to
> wind up? What is our plan?
>
> Caius Titinius Varus

What I would like to see initially is the formation of local groups within
Nova Roma. What I mean by local groups is people meeting on a regular basis
to support the goals of Nova Roma. People meeting regularly to honor and
offer sacrifice to the Gods. People organizing social events, people
learning about classical Roman culture, AND developing NEW Roman culture. We
cannot develop a Nova (ie., New) Roman Culture on-line...this can only be
done in person.

YES...we have a provincial system. But this is a regional system, this is
not a local system. We need local communities established within the
Provinces. Call them Municipia, Colonia, whatever! But there needs to be a
local presence of BOTH the "secular" side of Nova Roma and the Religio side.
Working together for the betterment of Nova Roma as a whole.

ONCE this is established...then we can start moving in the direction of
having land. Right now our only real infrastructure is the Internet. It
needs to be more than that.

And I know that someone will say, "we have discussed this before, several
times, yadda yadda...etc..." Great its been discussed before, lets get
something in action.

In Fellowship:

G. Modius Athanasius

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