Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:18:59 -0500

On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:51:09PM +0000, me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:

Salve, V. Ambrosius Caesariensis -

> >From : ?Chantal G. Whittington? <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
> >
> >Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall significance
> >in Nova Roma (aside from them having five more century points than
> >plegeians), that I don't see it as a status that anyone would go out
> >of their way to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
> >the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.
> >
> This is the real point about the status issue. The distinction changed
> during the Republic and became moribund under the Empire anyway. It
> only matters if one class has real privilege over the other whether
> that class is named as such or not. America is something of an example
> here, by not having any formal class structure, it allows a rigid
> informal one to go unnoticed. You can bet that if a Kennedy or a Bush
> ends up destitute they won't stay that way for long while somebody who
> made it off the shack in Alabama and saw it all go wrong is likely to
> stay in the shack.

I'm not certain I see the distinction you're making. Are you saying
that, if the entire extended Kennedy clan was to become dirt-poor
overnight, somebody would immediately give them a few hundred million
dollars "to get back on their feet"? Or that, if the
"rags-to-riches-to-rags" shack-dweller had raised his own family to
multi-millionaire status in the process, he would be left to starve?

I'm not arguing the fact that there's an informal class structure in
America. I believe, however, that it has little-to-no influence on Joe
Average. In this respect, I think that NR is much closer to the US of
today than the Rome of yesterday.

> What matters is the fact of the thing, not the name
> of the thing. Most of the opinions coming out are very British in
> seeming to miss that distinction. They might as well be talking about
> hereditory titles. In most countries where they exist they confer no
> status, no privilege, nothing whatever, so they do no harm, a little
> conceit like having a coat of arms perhaps.

<smile> Then perhaps my outlook is very British in this regard. Add to
this the fact that, for a new citizen, the choice is purely voluntary,
and the issue becomes completely moot.

I wonder how many people here were aware of whether they were joining a
patrician vs. a plebeian gens _before_ they saw their Album Civium page?

> Rome developed. The very
> fact of devising a Nova Roma implies a different sort of development.
> If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure
> that does not deliver meaningful privileges.

Or that it grants them to those who can best serve Nova Roma by their
use.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Acta est fabula, plaudite!
The play is over, applaud!
-- Suetonius, "Vitae Caesarum"; said to have been emperor Augustus' last words

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 01:16:33 -0000

I have to admit, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about. We
are all smart, capable, creative people, "class" or no "class." In
my (admittedly limited) experience with Nova Roma, this social
standing has not mattered or made any bit of difference. When I
volunteer my talents, no one asks "What are you, patrician or
plebian?"

If keeping the structure is an effective way of organization, so be
it. I haven't yet had any occasion to notice the effects of that
structure on the way people treat each other. And the way we treat
each other is, in my mind, the most important thing here.

respectfully,
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:36:11 +0100 (MET)

Salve.

Of course I really have to apologize that I am not a native english speaker.
My fault. But, hey, we do not all start our lives with the same great
opportunities and with the same chances. My posts were referring to your statement
about ancient rome. I still have the impression that you have no idea. This
is not meant as an insult, once again, it is my personal impression. If you
say you have, please share your wisdom with us. But, after you have avoided by
any means to answer my really simple question:

Again, which primary sources do you suggest me to read so
that I can share your opinion about how rome was reigned/ruled and who those
people were that did it?,

I think that I am right with my statement about your knowledge. A part of
romanitas is to live somewhere on the social ladder and to stay there. The
romans detested nothing more than "res novae". There is some flexibility in this
system, but not too much.

Furthermore I think that the only person in this discussion that is really
intending to insult others is you.
I fully agree that it makes sense to ask questions about how NR should go
on, where it should lead to. How we can achieve the goal of what NR was meant
to become. But I think neither your flaming nor your impoliteness is a very
productive means or helpful. Stop crying for a plan and provide one. Start a
poll about it. Bring it forth to discussion. And be able to bear critique.

Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

P.S.: I am not a patrician, as which you have adressed me in your other
"answer".

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:38:20 +0100 (MET)

Salve!

Yes, this is just the way I see it. There are other, more important issues.

Vale, Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Paterfamilias, Eques.

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.

+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 20:16:52 -0600

"If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure that does not deliver meaningful privileges."

Thats what I'm saying.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

-----Original Message-----
From : "Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
>
>Frankly, the status of patrician has so little overall
>significance in Nova Roma (aside from them having five
>more century points than plegeians), that I don't see
>it as a status that anyone would go out of their way
>to covet. For heaven's sakes, there are patricians in
>the capiti censi and plebeians in Century #1.
>
This is the real point about the status issue. The distinction changed during the Republic and became moribund under the Empire anyway. It only matters if one class has real privilege over the other whether that class is named as such or not. America is something of an example here, by not having any formal class structure, it allows a rigid informal one to go unnoticed. You can bet that if a Kennedy or a Bush ends up destitute they won't stay that way for long while somebody who made it off the shack in Alabama and saw it all go wrong is likely to stay in the shack. What matters is the fact of the thing, not the name of the thing.
Most of the opinions coming out are very British in seeming to miss that distinction. They might as well be talking about hereditory titles. In most countries where they exist they confer no status, no privilege, nothing whatever, so they do no harm, a little conceit like having a coat of arms perhaps.
Rome developed. The very fact of devising a Nova Roma implies a different sort of development. If it incorporates old nomenclature the important thing is to ensure that does not deliver meaningful privileges.
V. Ambrosius Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:32:07 EST

Salve,

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola, I for one am willing to put my money where your
mouth is. Nova Roma has not yet had a codified 'plan' simply because we have
not possessed the people or infrastructure to accurately carry such a thing
out. However, if people want such a plan to be created it surely can be -
and perhaps we've even grown to the point where it can succeed to some
extent.

As one of the founders of Nova Roma I'd like to help set a foundation for
detailed planning. The text below is an explanation of some of the major
goals set for Nova Roma at it's founding; an outline of basic intent with
some suggestions toward further specific work.

Instead of listing goals from the 'top down,' I've listed goals from the most
basic to the most complex. It proceeds from what we originally hoped for each
of us as individuals, to our overall organization. It is my hope that rather
than trying to list innumerable goals, we can remember these core ideals
while creating more detailed plans. As a Senator, I of course volunteer to
assist with creating more specific goals... provided we have other volunteers
to actually help working to achieve the goals set.

******************************************
GOALS SET AT THE FOUNDING OF NOVA ROMA

I. INDIVIDUALS - Nova Roma has always been intended to be a force for
encouraging and building more "Romanitas" in the lives of its Citizens. In
the modern world many wonderful Classical ideals are being forgotten; it has
been our hope to rekindle a love for Roman culture, arts, history,
literature, virtues, religion, philosophy and more. Our most basic ideal is
that Romanitas is worth exploring, learning and preserving, and that a life
which includes Romanitas is more interesting and meaningful.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Most things in Nova Roma are hoped to lead
toward this goal. List discussion, Sodalitas groups, Provincial community,
festivals and events, participation in the Religio, political participation,
etc. can help bring a greater sense of Romanitas - if we allow them to.

Specifics: Additional sodalitas groups (and supporting the ones we have)
might be helpful. There are many aspects of Roman life and culture that have
no official 'place' for focus and gaining more Citizen interests, and the
places we do have, such as the cooking and poetry sodalitiae, are not given
much official attention/encouragement. This is a place where we could learn
from the "guilds" in the SCA, even if our intent is somewhat 'deeper' as far
as incorporation into daily life.

II. FAMILIAE & HOUSEHOLDS - In addition to encouraging more personal
Romanitas, Nova Roma was also founded on the hope of encouraging greater
Classical focus within families and households. The home and family were the
foundation of Roman culture. We recognize that it is within the home and
family that Classical interest is most easily fostered and pursued. To this
end Nova Roma has both encouraged participation by 'natural' families, and
also provided a Gentes system which allows adoption for those living alone,
etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: As with individuals, many of the aspects of
Nova Roma are intended to encourage Romanitas within the household and
family. Here local participation and group involvement becomes even more
important, as they are more easily shared than email.

Specifics: The more active our Sodalitas groups and local Provinciae are, the
more likely it is that immediate families will become involved, and 'adopted'
Gens ties will be strengthened and shared. And, the more that people are able
to participate on a group level, the more likely that Romanitas will be
included in many aspects of the household. It is important to focus on
getting together in 'real time.' Roman commerce can also a part here as well
- the more Roman goods are available, the more 'Roman' a household can seem.
Encouraging the Ordo Equester might be a helpful thing.

III. PROVINCIAE - The various Provinciae, and the 'regios' within them, have
always been intended to be where Nova Roma "lives". The Internet is a tool
for sharing information and conversation, but it is no replacement for
face-to-face community. The hope has been that as Nova Roma gains more
Citizens, more of us will find others locally, and that we will be able to
gather to share "things Roman", be those things religion, cultural events,
reenacting, or simple fellowship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Our Provincial Praetors, and their Legates,
are intended first and foremost to be 'contact people' and local
coordinators. It is in them that the trust is put that local events will
happen whenever there are enough people to allow it, that information gets
disseminated on the local level, citizens become encouraged locally, etc.
Local organization and participation is critical. Consuls, Senators, etc. can
only do so much on the state level... folks have to be out there organizing
and hosting local events, putting out flyers, and much more.

Specifics: There may be many more things that the 'State' could do to assist
growth of and participation within the Provinciae. Closer support of Praetors
and Legates, providing more resources (such as flyers, websites, etc.)
assistance with gatherings and more are possible. All of our Citizens are
more likely to be active if they have the chance to participate in live
events, local groups, etc. This is another place where we could learn from
the SCA. Their local Provinces have scheduled meetings, public classes,
events, etc. Local leadership might even be better coordinated. For instance,
there is a Provincial Praetors list which not all Praetors belong to, no
provincial legates belong to, and no one else in government belongs to. The
only communication between the state and local branches are by individual
emails, or on the main list.

IV: THE 'STATE' GOVERNMENT - The State government within Nova Roma
encompasses all elected magistrates not on the direct Provincia level, the
Senate, Consuls, Censors, etc. These offices are more than a mirror of
ancient organization, they are our board of directors, elected officers, etc.
The overall goal of the Nova Roman State is simple - to keep our micronation
afloat, and take care of everyday maintenance while working to grow and build
our infrastructure, and help keep our Citizens active and encouraged.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Many duties are expected of magisterial
offices, yet there seem to be few resources to support them. As yet Nova Roma
has put little into either training or support, leaving our officers to sink
or swim. (Much the same problems as our Provincial officers face.) It is
little wonder that it is not unusual for our volunteer officers to 'burn out'
or fade away. We might benefit from more direction toward good service, and
more reward for service well done.

Specifics: Nova Roma might well benefit from returning to the idea of
'magisterial handbooks' available online for our officers, and from our
magistrates using the "NR Magistrates list" to discuss problems and find
common solutions. Also, we should have a way of recognizing work well done by
*anyone*, both magistrates and private Citizens, on behalf of Nova Roma.

V. LAND AND PROPERTY - When Nova Roma was first conceived, it was realized
that if we were to be a 'nation' we should have some permanent physical
presence. Not a 'land' for our Citizens to homestead (for we're
international) but simply to be manifested somewhere beyond the hearts and
minds of our Citizens. Therefore the idea of 108 acres for a 'headquarters',
which we would consider a world capital. A place where Citizens could visit,
people could learn about Rome, etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Land has proven to be a confusing issue -
each Citizen seems to have separate ideas of what they want, or even what our
Declaration and Constitution are trying to say. Calls for land for
homesteading continue to crop up on lists, as do calls for abandoning all
hope for land, or obtaining any of dozens of different types, amounts or
locations of land. We need to pick one idea to start with, even if it doesn't
satisfy everyone. (And, to be honest, the founding documents do not say that
our 108 acres should be our first, or even only land holding.)

Specifics: The Senate should approach the issue of land, much as it was
finally forced to approach the issue of taxation. Land will continue to be a
divisive issue until we set a firm goal as to if we really want land or not,
and if so, exactly what type we're looking for. Then Nova Roma can work
toward a goal. Perhaps this could begin with an official call for specific
'plans' to be submitted for voting, the Senate could then choose the best few
for voting by the Comitiae.

VI. SOVEREIGN STATUS - At the founding of Nova Roma, it was fully understood
that it is basically impossible to found a 'new' nation. Many have tried and
almost all have failed - it is the policy of all macronations not to divide
their land to let it be governed by others. It is for this reason we chose to
exist both as an international organization and limited 'sovereignty
project'. It was our hope that if we could prove ourselves as the legitimate
heirs of the Roman world, we might gain the same status as given to other
organizations such as Catholic Church with Vatican City, or the Knights of
Malta. Until such a time we could only do our best to rebuild Romanitas, and
to consider ourselves an 'unrecognized people' or nation. Our sovereignty is
recognized only by ourselves at this stage, and the rest must be relegated to
time and the opinions of the world.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Nova Roma has made a good start in that we
have continued to grow and have begun to flesh out our Provinciae. The more
Nova Romans there are, and the more we are able to build, the more likely
that we might gain further legitimate status in the future.

Specifics: We can certainly make plans to build our culture and
infrastructure, and we can plan toward an administrative and religious world
capital. It is unlikely that we can 'plan' for recognition, for that is
something that must come from outside Nova Roma. Whether or not it is granted
is however perhaps not the point - the more we are able to build and become a
unique culture, the more meaningful this all will be to us.

VI. THE RELIGIO ROMANA - Nova Roma was initially founded solely to rebuild
the Religio Romana. It was very quickly understood that the Religio was
inseparable with Roman culture itself. Roman culture had to be rebuilt as
well for the Religio to function. Therefore, at the founding Nova Roma was
opened to people of all faiths and interests. A living community was needed
for a living religion to grow - even if not all members of the community were
interested in practicing that religion. At the founding the Religio Romana
was intended to do two things. The first was to restore the bond between the
Roman State and the Gods (the Pax Deorum) through traditional state rituals.
The second was to restore the worship of the Roman Gods as a living faith,
meaningful and growing, among individuals through private spirituality and
worship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Before Nova Roma was founded, there were
basically no working resources for the Religio Romana. No groups, no
websites, no public priesthood, no discussion forums, no instructions on how
to begin or what to do, etc. Now there are. Our impetus has brought forth
several imitating groups, websites, and forums, and Nova Roma itself provides
both basic information and opportunities for public priesthood. Naturally
those Citizens who practice the Religio wish to see a continuation of these
earlier achievements.

Specifics: The Religio Romana in Nova Roma has reached a point where the
basic foundations have been laid, and further growth is needed. More teaching
materials, more opportunities for public ritual, and additional activity
overall have been common requests. To this end, the Collegium Pontificum has
recently been presented with a list of the tasks that need to be done, and an
opportunity for each Pontiff to choose what they prefer to work on. Once that
is done the rest of the Priesthood will get a similar opportunity.

************************
Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pater Patriae, Senator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 03:00:08 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:

> After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Considering that 5 years ago there was nothing but two people and a
dream...... If I may dare quote a now politically incorrect
advertisement, "You've come a long way, baby."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
From:	cassius622@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:24:31 EST

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public
figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the
Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some
collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Salve,

Interesting you should bring up the subject of finances, as they make an
excellent general example of the difficulties Nova Roma has faced.

At the founding, it was hoped that NR could fund itself through means other
than a direct membership fee. We wanted Nova Roma to be available to everyone
equally all over the world. The original idea was to fund Nova Roma through a
variety of means including the sales of government products, money from the
Ordo Equester, money generated by Roman events and festivals, charitable
donations, etc.

Unfortunately, after two years it became painfully obvious that no startup
volunteer organization could make such funding work. The Ordo Equester
remained very small (we only just now have nine vendors), and while the state
business endeavors were profitable, they could not be run at a high enough
level on the purely volunteer basis required. If we wanted to fund things
like land, events, charitable Roman endeavors, etc, members would need to
provide funding just as people do in pretty much all other organizations.

So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations make
all large endeavors difficult.)

When taxes were first proposed Nova Roma had almost a thousand people. The
idea raised almost a thousand separate violent opinions. The reaction ranged
the complete gamut, from "That's not enough, dues must be at least $45 per
person!", to "PEOPLE OF NOVA ROMA, THE OPPRESSORS ARE OUT TO STEAL YOUR
MONEY! WE MUST ALL RISE UP IN REVOLT!" Such conflicting, empassioned
messages clogged the forums for weeks on end.

It was nearly impossible to find legal consensus among all the various
opinions and views. For every one person willing to pay the tax, there was
another who refused, and another *demanding* the tax structure must be
completely different, another who was furiously indignant that poorer
Citizens and our brothers and sisters in various countries might not be able
to pay, etc. etc.

Literally months of argument ensued. Citizens resigned. A trial tax program
was started in a provincia... and then the magistrates in that province
resigned, taking the money with them. Finally, after an insane amount of
fighting, a completely *voluntary* tax was put in place. Still more Citizens
resigned; they formed a separate Roman organization in a large part because
they claimed the NR government was being oppressive to its Citizens in daring
to try and fund the treasury. People still continue to argue about taxation
to this day. What say you, Citizens of Nova Roma? Would you each care to
share your individual ideas concerning NR taxation with Gaius Basilicatus
Agricola? ;)

Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that
they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness
to.

The magistrates and Senate of Nova Roma have the completely unenviable task
of having to reach something approximating 'general consensus' with *every
issue* that Nova Roma faces. We are a completely volunteer society, and our
government obviously has no real 'power' over the Citizens. The Comitiae make
the decisions, and there are always some who refuse to reconcile even with
those voted decisions.

Take yourself and the issue of Plebians and Patricians. I guarantee you the
vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow
of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No. Will you ever? I don't believe
so. If the Comitiae were to revote the issue and uphold the classes, would
you accept that vote? From what I've seen, my guess is still "no". I think
you consider the classes so unfair, the only possible solution in your world
is for us all to do what *you* demand.

There are people with the same passionate opinions as yours on *every issue*
that Nova Roma has ever faced, and who refuse to live with other
decisions/solutions no matter what the odds. Do you truly wonder why things
have not progressed as much as you wish?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:32:25 -0600

Ave Senator

Thank you for your measured and polite response. It has given me more insight into Nova Roam and its goals. You seem to be on top of it. You should be in charge of "The Plan"!

It all comes down to money. Taxes should be more like $20.00 or $30.00 a year. That should include a membership to the Eagle. All successful organizations communicate to their members in print on a monthly basis. Sell advertising in it. Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get Caesar's to sponsor us. Form a Nova Roman play production company and put on some Greek and Roman plays. Lysistrata would be appropriate in America at this monent. The money making ideas we have to tap on are unlimited. First the money, then the dream.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Cc: SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:32 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)

Salve,

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola, I for one am willing to put my money where your
mouth is. Nova Roma has not yet had a codified 'plan' simply because we have
not possessed the people or infrastructure to accurately carry such a thing
out. However, if people want such a plan to be created it surely can be -
and perhaps we've even grown to the point where it can succeed to some
extent.

As one of the founders of Nova Roma I'd like to help set a foundation for
detailed planning. The text below is an explanation of some of the major
goals set for Nova Roma at it's founding; an outline of basic intent with
some suggestions toward further specific work.

Instead of listing goals from the 'top down,' I've listed goals from the most
basic to the most complex. It proceeds from what we originally hoped for each
of us as individuals, to our overall organization. It is my hope that rather
than trying to list innumerable goals, we can remember these core ideals
while creating more detailed plans. As a Senator, I of course volunteer to
assist with creating more specific goals... provided we have other volunteers
to actually help working to achieve the goals set.

******************************************
GOALS SET AT THE FOUNDING OF NOVA ROMA

I. INDIVIDUALS - Nova Roma has always been intended to be a force for
encouraging and building more "Romanitas" in the lives of its Citizens. In
the modern world many wonderful Classical ideals are being forgotten; it has
been our hope to rekindle a love for Roman culture, arts, history,
literature, virtues, religion, philosophy and more. Our most basic ideal is
that Romanitas is worth exploring, learning and preserving, and that a life
which includes Romanitas is more interesting and meaningful.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Most things in Nova Roma are hoped to lead
toward this goal. List discussion, Sodalitas groups, Provincial community,
festivals and events, participation in the Religio, political participation,
etc. can help bring a greater sense of Romanitas - if we allow them to.

Specifics: Additional sodalitas groups (and supporting the ones we have)
might be helpful. There are many aspects of Roman life and culture that have
no official 'place' for focus and gaining more Citizen interests, and the
places we do have, such as the cooking and poetry sodalitiae, are not given
much official attention/encouragement. This is a place where we could learn
from the "guilds" in the SCA, even if our intent is somewhat 'deeper' as far
as incorporation into daily life.

II. FAMILIAE & HOUSEHOLDS - In addition to encouraging more personal
Romanitas, Nova Roma was also founded on the hope of encouraging greater
Classical focus within families and households. The home and family were the
foundation of Roman culture. We recognize that it is within the home and
family that Classical interest is most easily fostered and pursued. To this
end Nova Roma has both encouraged participation by 'natural' families, and
also provided a Gentes system which allows adoption for those living alone,
etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: As with individuals, many of the aspects of
Nova Roma are intended to encourage Romanitas within the household and
family. Here local participation and group involvement becomes even more
important, as they are more easily shared than email.

Specifics: The more active our Sodalitas groups and local Provinciae are, the
more likely it is that immediate families will become involved, and 'adopted'
Gens ties will be strengthened and shared. And, the more that people are able
to participate on a group level, the more likely that Romanitas will be
included in many aspects of the household. It is important to focus on
getting together in 'real time.' Roman commerce can also a part here as well
- the more Roman goods are available, the more 'Roman' a household can seem.
Encouraging the Ordo Equester might be a helpful thing.

III. PROVINCIAE - The various Provinciae, and the 'regios' within them, have
always been intended to be where Nova Roma "lives". The Internet is a tool
for sharing information and conversation, but it is no replacement for
face-to-face community. The hope has been that as Nova Roma gains more
Citizens, more of us will find others locally, and that we will be able to
gather to share "things Roman", be those things religion, cultural events,
reenacting, or simple fellowship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Our Provincial Praetors, and their Legates,
are intended first and foremost to be 'contact people' and local
coordinators. It is in them that the trust is put that local events will
happen whenever there are enough people to allow it, that information gets
disseminated on the local level, citizens become encouraged locally, etc.
Local organization and participation is critical. Consuls, Senators, etc. can
only do so much on the state level... folks have to be out there organizing
and hosting local events, putting out flyers, and much more.

Specifics: There may be many more things that the 'State' could do to assist
growth of and participation within the Provinciae. Closer support of Praetors
and Legates, providing more resources (such as flyers, websites, etc.)
assistance with gatherings and more are possible. All of our Citizens are
more likely to be active if they have the chance to participate in live
events, local groups, etc. This is another place where we could learn from
the SCA. Their local Provinces have scheduled meetings, public classes,
events, etc. Local leadership might even be better coordinated. For instance,
there is a Provincial Praetors list which not all Praetors belong to, no
provincial legates belong to, and no one else in government belongs to. The
only communication between the state and local branches are by individual
emails, or on the main list.

IV: THE 'STATE' GOVERNMENT - The State government within Nova Roma
encompasses all elected magistrates not on the direct Provincia level, the
Senate, Consuls, Censors, etc. These offices are more than a mirror of
ancient organization, they are our board of directors, elected officers, etc.
The overall goal of the Nova Roman State is simple - to keep our micronation
afloat, and take care of everyday maintenance while working to grow and build
our infrastructure, and help keep our Citizens active and encouraged.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Many duties are expected of magisterial
offices, yet there seem to be few resources to support them. As yet Nova Roma
has put little into either training or support, leaving our officers to sink
or swim. (Much the same problems as our Provincial officers face.) It is
little wonder that it is not unusual for our volunteer officers to 'burn out'
or fade away. We might benefit from more direction toward good service, and
more reward for service well done.

Specifics: Nova Roma might well benefit from returning to the idea of
'magisterial handbooks' available online for our officers, and from our
magistrates using the "NR Magistrates list" to discuss problems and find
common solutions. Also, we should have a way of recognizing work well done by
*anyone*, both magistrates and private Citizens, on behalf of Nova Roma.

V. LAND AND PROPERTY - When Nova Roma was first conceived, it was realized
that if we were to be a 'nation' we should have some permanent physical
presence. Not a 'land' for our Citizens to homestead (for we're
international) but simply to be manifested somewhere beyond the hearts and
minds of our Citizens. Therefore the idea of 108 acres for a 'headquarters',
which we would consider a world capital. A place where Citizens could visit,
people could learn about Rome, etc.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Land has proven to be a confusing issue -
each Citizen seems to have separate ideas of what they want, or even what our
Declaration and Constitution are trying to say. Calls for land for
homesteading continue to crop up on lists, as do calls for abandoning all
hope for land, or obtaining any of dozens of different types, amounts or
locations of land. We need to pick one idea to start with, even if it doesn't
satisfy everyone. (And, to be honest, the founding documents do not say that
our 108 acres should be our first, or even only land holding.)

Specifics: The Senate should approach the issue of land, much as it was
finally forced to approach the issue of taxation. Land will continue to be a
divisive issue until we set a firm goal as to if we really want land or not,
and if so, exactly what type we're looking for. Then Nova Roma can work
toward a goal. Perhaps this could begin with an official call for specific
'plans' to be submitted for voting, the Senate could then choose the best few
for voting by the Comitiae.

VI. SOVEREIGN STATUS - At the founding of Nova Roma, it was fully understood
that it is basically impossible to found a 'new' nation. Many have tried and
almost all have failed - it is the policy of all macronations not to divide
their land to let it be governed by others. It is for this reason we chose to
exist both as an international organization and limited 'sovereignty
project'. It was our hope that if we could prove ourselves as the legitimate
heirs of the Roman world, we might gain the same status as given to other
organizations such as Catholic Church with Vatican City, or the Knights of
Malta. Until such a time we could only do our best to rebuild Romanitas, and
to consider ourselves an 'unrecognized people' or nation. Our sovereignty is
recognized only by ourselves at this stage, and the rest must be relegated to
time and the opinions of the world.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Nova Roma has made a good start in that we
have continued to grow and have begun to flesh out our Provinciae. The more
Nova Romans there are, and the more we are able to build, the more likely
that we might gain further legitimate status in the future.

Specifics: We can certainly make plans to build our culture and
infrastructure, and we can plan toward an administrative and religious world
capital. It is unlikely that we can 'plan' for recognition, for that is
something that must come from outside Nova Roma. Whether or not it is granted
is however perhaps not the point - the more we are able to build and become a
unique culture, the more meaningful this all will be to us.

VI. THE RELIGIO ROMANA - Nova Roma was initially founded solely to rebuild
the Religio Romana. It was very quickly understood that the Religio was
inseparable with Roman culture itself. Roman culture had to be rebuilt as
well for the Religio to function. Therefore, at the founding Nova Roma was
opened to people of all faiths and interests. A living community was needed
for a living religion to grow - even if not all members of the community were
interested in practicing that religion. At the founding the Religio Romana
was intended to do two things. The first was to restore the bond between the
Roman State and the Gods (the Pax Deorum) through traditional state rituals.
The second was to restore the worship of the Roman Gods as a living faith,
meaningful and growing, among individuals through private spirituality and
worship.

Thoughts on overall achievement: Before Nova Roma was founded, there were
basically no working resources for the Religio Romana. No groups, no
websites, no public priesthood, no discussion forums, no instructions on how
to begin or what to do, etc. Now there are. Our impetus has brought forth
several imitating groups, websites, and forums, and Nova Roma itself provides
both basic information and opportunities for public priesthood. Naturally
those Citizens who practice the Religio wish to see a continuation of these
earlier achievements.

Specifics: The Religio Romana in Nova Roma has reached a point where the
basic foundations have been laid, and further growth is needed. More teaching
materials, more opportunities for public ritual, and additional activity
overall have been common requests. To this end, the Collegium Pontificum has
recently been presented with a list of the tasks that need to be done, and an
opportunity for each Pontiff to choose what they prefer to work on. Once that
is done the rest of the Priesthood will get a similar opportunity.

************************
Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pater Patriae, Senator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:00:46 -0600

Ave Cassius

"I guarantee you the vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No."

Yes, I accept it. I don't care anymore. Pretend I never said a word on the subject.

Your description of the tax situation is hilarious. If that is truly the state of things here, then there is no hope. You can't do squat without money. If you can't raise money, then one certainly can't handle it, even if someone throws it in your lap. I've belonged to cheapskate organizations before, and have left in disgust. If we can't agree that we need money, and lots of it, to implement even the most basic goals, then we're doomed.

My law practice has taken off. I'm doing well now but I'll never forget the slim times. It was tough in the begining. Many a day when the phone didn't ring and I didn't know what would happen to me. I tried to office out of my house;clients want to come to an office, so I finagled an office. I had a crappy computer at the office, and it wasted more time than it saved me, so I got a new computer. The same with fax, credit card machine, etc. I devised new marketing schemes, joined organizations to increase my contacts, and kissed a lot of hind ends. And many a sleepless nights wondering if I had advised a client correctly, if we would win or lose, should we have gone to trial? I aged twenty years in five. Prosecuting was a party compared to private practice.

I'm not bragging. I'm not outrageously wealthy. But I have a fervent belief that hard work without money, guts, and risk taking is just a bunch of hard work, usually to someone else's benefit. If some members here don't want to give money to their elected government, take some risks, and do some hard work, then they have no faith in Nova Roma or themselves. I do. If I rub some some people in here the wrong way, I could care less. We need a plan, and we need money. Otherwise, whats the point?

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public
figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the
Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some
collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Salve,

Interesting you should bring up the subject of finances, as they make an
excellent general example of the difficulties Nova Roma has faced.

At the founding, it was hoped that NR could fund itself through means other
than a direct membership fee. We wanted Nova Roma to be available to everyone
equally all over the world. The original idea was to fund Nova Roma through a
variety of means including the sales of government products, money from the
Ordo Equester, money generated by Roman events and festivals, charitable
donations, etc.

Unfortunately, after two years it became painfully obvious that no startup
volunteer organization could make such funding work. The Ordo Equester
remained very small (we only just now have nine vendors), and while the state
business endeavors were profitable, they could not be run at a high enough
level on the purely volunteer basis required. If we wanted to fund things
like land, events, charitable Roman endeavors, etc, members would need to
provide funding just as people do in pretty much all other organizations.

So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations make
all large endeavors difficult.)

When taxes were first proposed Nova Roma had almost a thousand people. The
idea raised almost a thousand separate violent opinions. The reaction ranged
the complete gamut, from "That's not enough, dues must be at least $45 per
person!", to "PEOPLE OF NOVA ROMA, THE OPPRESSORS ARE OUT TO STEAL YOUR
MONEY! WE MUST ALL RISE UP IN REVOLT!" Such conflicting, empassioned
messages clogged the forums for weeks on end.

It was nearly impossible to find legal consensus among all the various
opinions and views. For every one person willing to pay the tax, there was
another who refused, and another *demanding* the tax structure must be
completely different, another who was furiously indignant that poorer
Citizens and our brothers and sisters in various countries might not be able
to pay, etc. etc.

Literally months of argument ensued. Citizens resigned. A trial tax program
was started in a provincia... and then the magistrates in that province
resigned, taking the money with them. Finally, after an insane amount of
fighting, a completely *voluntary* tax was put in place. Still more Citizens
resigned; they formed a separate Roman organization in a large part because
they claimed the NR government was being oppressive to its Citizens in daring
to try and fund the treasury. People still continue to argue about taxation
to this day. What say you, Citizens of Nova Roma? Would you each care to
share your individual ideas concerning NR taxation with Gaius Basilicatus
Agricola? ;)

Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that
they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness
to.

The magistrates and Senate of Nova Roma have the completely unenviable task
of having to reach something approximating 'general consensus' with *every
issue* that Nova Roma faces. We are a completely volunteer society, and our
government obviously has no real 'power' over the Citizens. The Comitiae make
the decisions, and there are always some who refuse to reconcile even with
those voted decisions.

Take yourself and the issue of Plebians and Patricians. I guarantee you the
vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow
of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No. Will you ever? I don't believe
so. If the Comitiae were to revote the issue and uphold the classes, would
you accept that vote? From what I've seen, my guess is still "no". I think
you consider the classes so unfair, the only possible solution in your world
is for us all to do what *you* demand.

There are people with the same passionate opinions as yours on *every issue*
that Nova Roma has ever faced, and who refuse to live with other
decisions/solutions no matter what the odds. Do you truly wonder why things
have not progressed as much as you wish?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] "Seven Are Gone"
From:	Pipar - Steven <catamount_grange@inwave.com>
Date:	Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:18:15 -0600

Salus et Fortuna Renata Corva,

"Chantal G. Whittington" wrote:
>
> Pipar--I am linking to your poem from my Livejournal.
> That was beautiful!
>
> ---
> Renata Corva
> http://aerden.livejournal.com
>

I am always gratified when my words are found to be of worth, I thank you.

For anyone who feels the same, please, as long as my name remains attached, feel free to repost my
words.

--
=========================================
In amicus sub fidelis
Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives Patricianus Nova Roma

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:39:08 EST

In a message dated 2/2/03 6:59:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> A Man's Republic for Men.

Of course we'd be in breech of title IX. But all the study grants that have
been refused are
partially because we allow women positions of authority in NR. It makes us
an imperfect model. However I am hopeful. The women here are educated
people, which of course
qualifies them to be magistrates. I'm hoping to prove that women in power
here in NR are as aggressive as males. If we can prove this, those
objections would have to be dropped.
We did have a rich man offer money. And he would have been a Plebeian. But
the dot com went bust and that ship has sailed.
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:40:46 -0500

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
As I join this debate I want you and everybody on this list to know up front that am doing so
ABSIT INVIDIA " LET ILL WII BE ABSENT"
I come to debate not to argue or to be argumentative

LSD>First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of having
a city where our citizens can live.
TGP then maybe we should change the goal.
LSD Our goal is similar to what the Catholic Church realized in 1929,
a small administrative forum that is the focus of the
Religio and our culture.
TGP When Italy was unified in 1860 they took over by CONQUEST and by the consent of a majority of Romans( the people who lived in the City of Rome) the territory of the Papal States, a political and religious entity that goes back into the middle ages. They did so again the fierce opposition of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Popes in power . The RCC held out the hope and aspiration to reclaim the Papal States from a united Italy from 1860 until 1929 when a Concordat was signed between Italy and the Catholic Church. This came about only because the RCC finally excepted that a united Italy was here to stay. The RCC took what it could get at this point and the was the Vatican City State
LSD> We wish to acquire at least
108 acres for this purpose. Once we acquire this land
it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
living quarters for those who want to relocate to the
forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair to
expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
realize that dream.
TGP>An administrative center that is bigger that an office building would require a City or town to offer services that the officials will need. Water, sewers, (electricity or gas?) even the office building would need these services. Are the magistrates of NR going to live in their office? No they're going to live in Roman like houses in a Roman like City or town. They will eat in restaurants that serve Roman food, by chefs trained at the Nova Roman Culinary Institute, one of the many private business that will establish themselves in the New Capital City of Nova Roma by Nova Romans.
( I intend to establish the culinary school in the city so nobody steal this name ok)
LSD> The Catholic Church has never had a goal of having
large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
The Vatican is the administrative center for Catholics
living all over the world.
TPG only by default, not by design of the Popes or the RCC
and the fact that The Vatican City State is located in the center of ROME a city of millions might also play a role ,further the people who help run/staff the Vatican City State all live , with one or two notable exceptions in the City of Rome. No need to import them.
Our goal is to achieve the
same status, an administrative center, not an
independent city.
TGP Why?
We hold CITIZENSHIP in Nova Roma! By definition citizens needs a City as in ancient Rome or in the modern world a Nation-State . Rome /The Vatican City State is the administrative center of the RCC and has been ( with the exception of the time the Popes lived in France ) for centuries .

LSD> Since we have citizens who wish to acquire land near
the forum, I have suggested that we attempt to acquire a
much larger plot of land than we need for the forum. I
Have suggested that we acquire 1000 acres, set aside 200
for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in one
acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
the purchase.
TGP no we sell the land at a reasonable mark up to fill the treasury of Nova Roma.
This will allow us to build the Temples and other Nova Roma building we would need. Like a museum on Roman culture and history, which will bring in the tourists that will again fill the treasury .
This will require a higher initial
outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
the treasury that can be used to start construction.
One thing has to be made clear though.
LSD These plots will not be part of a city of Nova Roma.
TGP Again I ask WHY?
LSD >They will belike owning land in the city of Roma near the Vatican,
they will remain under the control of some modern
nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.
TGP> Are you implying that Nova Roma can at sometime in the future, get land for the Forum that would have Sovereignty but not land next to it? Nova Roma can only get sovereignty by acquiring it from a political entity that already holds it.

LDS> As for the orders, they are needed to maintain the
ancient system of government, and there are some
offices in the Religio that are only open to
Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is not
only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
reason Nova Roma was founded.
TGP> In reality there are no citizens of Nova Roma that are TRUE physical decedents of the Patricians .You have embarked on a noble effort to re-establish the Roman religion. But because a thousand years or more has elapsed since it was last practiced any modifications you make to it would by nature make it NEW. We have women in new roles the Roman would not have allowed. What would the religious leaders of Ancient Rome say about these and other changes made to accommodate the 21st century?
Again with ABSIT INVIDIA
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:42:02 EST

> The patricians ran the Republic into
> the ground.<<
>
As a Roman historian I take issue with this generalization.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Your Big Fat Ancient Roman Wedding
From:	"biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>" <biojournalism@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 04:38:34 -0000

Ancient Roman Wedding Procedure
By: Octavia Fabia Scriba

Here are the 43 Steps to Your Ancient Roman Wedding.

A Roman wedding ring symbolized the rope that bound the bridal
wrists in times so ancient it occurred before ancient Rome. Yet it
also symbolized the circular nature of nature itself which
symbolized recurrence, rebirth, and rhythm. By the Republic era of
ancient Rome, the wedding ring was then thought to bind the nerve
that ran from the finger to the heart, thereby caging the bride's
heart or seat of emotions as a caged bird that sings. Yet the liver
was supposed to be the seat of emotions, but never the brain. A lot
took place between the time of negotiation and engagement before a
wedding, a lot of planning, thought, and family social climbing,
when possible.
You can have three types of Roman weddings. In ancient Rome there
were three different kinds of weddings. You could have the
confarreatio. This is the patrician marriage assuming the bride's
and groom's parents also were married with confarreatio. You'd have
a grand ceremony with ten witnesses.
You'd need a Flamen Dialis and Pontifex Maximus to conduct the
wedding. The bride goes straight from her paterfamilias to the
groom. Divorce was almost unheard of. A patrician divorce was
difficult to obtain and rare, but if gotten, a diffareatio required
a sacrifice before the wife was returned to her father….The bride is
literally handed into her father's arms. "manus of her
paterfamilias."
You could have a plebeian wedding and have a common Roman marriage
where "manus" called the coemptio. The groom purchased the bride.
The groom pays nummus usus, a penny, and gets the bride in exchange
for the penny. It's not a real sale, but symbolizes the traditional
bride purchase of years gone by before ancient Roman times. For a
common wedding, you only need five witnesses. The wedding is
informal, but the bride is given to her husband's family.
The third kind of Roman marriage is unusual because it was
not used by the end of the Republic and labeled old fashioned. It
went out with the end of the Republic. It was called the "usus" and
was a practical marriage that did not require any type of ritual or
ceremony. This type of marriage existed in the days of the early
Republic and before that when there were kings in Rome. By 80 BCE,
it was termed obsolete.
In this wedding, the bride was transferred to the "manus" of the
groom (or the bride is handed over to the groom) after cohabitation
for a year. At the beginning of the cohabitation where the two would
simply live together for a set time, the couple would take an oath
of adfectus maritalis, fidelity in marriage. After the year was up,
the bride then belonged to the husband or "passed into his hands."
The only way to get out of that cohabitation marriage was if the
woman was away from the husband's home for three nights in a row,
she would not have to pass into the husband's clutches, `er hands. …
or rather his "manus."

1. No ceremony was needed to legalize your wedding. So it's
okay to live together for two weeks in order to acquire "adfectus
maritalis," and thereby have your wedding recognized as legal in
Rome. However, most patrician families insisted upon a rite of
marriage ceremony—a wedding and wedding feast.
2. First the bride renounces her infanthood. She begins by
giving away her childhood toys and her children's garb called the
toga praetexta. She proceeds to take three baths, one in cold water,
one in lukewarm water, and one in heated water, comfortable but
warm. She scrubs her body with a mixture of warm extra virgin olive
oil, cold pressed, of course.
3. To the bowl of olive oil is added whole and pressed cloves,
pot purri dried flowers such as orange blossoms and rose blossoms or
petals and extract of orange blossom and rose petal water, essence
adopted from the Phoenicians—to boil orange and rose petals and wash
with it mixed with olive oil. She rinses her mouth with rose petal
water and eats a fresh apple to clean her teeth, then rubs her teeth
with linen soaked in crushed chalk or similar minerals. (Modern
brides would do fine with calcium powder.). She brushes orange
blossom honey on her tongue.
4. Her hairstyle is unique to the wedding feast and is called
the tutulus. This hairdo involves having her hair combed and parted
into six locks. The Latin term was "sex crines," (no not sex crimes)
crines. Six crines. Her hair is parted into six parts not with a
comb but with a traditional Roman bent iron spearhead called
a "hasta recurva" or "hasta caelibaris." Her hair is parted in six
parts with a bent iron spearhead. (As if that isn't enough of a
phallic symbol at a wedding, the reason for the spearhead in ancient
Rome was that it drove out the evil eye in her hair and any other
evil ghost-spirits.) This custom pops up in other cultures from
Australia to ancient Rome—driving out the evil ones from the hair
with a bent spearhead. This was preceded by a fine carved ivory or
wooden lice comb through the hair and then the spearhead for good
measure.
5. She fastens or has fastened the six hair locks equally
divided in a hexagon over her head with a type of clip or baret
called a vittae.
6. The vittae are fastened on top of her head in a meta. The
meta is shaped like an inverted or standing pyramid or a cone. In
other words, she has six hair spikes sticking up from her head.
However, the meta is not severe looking. Usually the wedding
tradition required that six locks of curled hair be clipped in place
in the shape of a cone.
7. The wedding gown in ancient Rome was only worn one time and
then tossed. It could be off-white, but the wedding veil was bright
red and called the flammeum. And the red veil was the most important
symbol she wore at her wedding.
8. The wedding vows. The woman says in Latin "I veil myself."
She uses the verb "nubo" which is a term used for a cloud "nubes."
What she means is that she's under a cloud or veiled. She's property
under a cloud being exchanged. (Let's see her get to inherit
property with that title report of being under a cloud.)
9. Words related to nubo include nupta, a woman who is married,
nova nupta, a bride, and nuptiae, the wedding from which comes the
English word, nuptials used today for wedding ceremonies and
rituals. Everything in the wedding feast or ritual now is focused on
the bride and her flaming red veil. (Why red? Was she compared to a
rose, or was there a deeper meaning such as the blood proof of her
chastity/virginity that used to be demanded to be viewed from the
window by the public in Sicily and Egypt?)
10. Here's what the veil looked like: You take a rectangular
transparent piece of silk or similar material that's bride red and
drape it on the back of your head and shoulders to your heels. It's
like an oblong flag. Before silk came to Rome it was spun from a
transparent material similar to the type of flimsy, silk-like cloth
from certain Greek islands.
11. You fasten the veil to the cones at the back of your head.
The veil does not go over the face, but down the back and touching
the shoulders. On top of the veil is a wreath of amaracus.
12. A miniature wedding bed was placed in the hallway to cheer
up the couple.
13. Pine cones were lit.
14. The gown consisted of a tunica recta. You can make this out
of a white piece of rectangular cloth of muslin, flannel or silk.
You weave the cloth on an upright loom. The tunica recta is
fashioned with a girdle called a cingulum with a knot at the waist
to tie up the evil spirits so they wouldn't settle in her
reproductive organs.
15. The first half of the wedding feast takes place at the
bride's home of her paterfamilias. The bride's parents search in the
nooks and crannies of the house for omens, and if nothing is found
that's scary, they hand over the bride to the groom.
16. The bride takes the vows "Ubi tu (name of groom), ego (name
of bride), actually, Where you are (male form of name) such as
Claudius, I am (female form of the male's name) Claudia….as
in "Where you are Claudius, I am Claudia." Only you say it in
Latin. "Ubi tu Claudius, ego Claudia."
17. The groom didn't even have to be in the country. He could
send a letter with his part of the words they would exchange with
one another. Then the matron of honor called the pronuba grabs the
couple's hands and shoves them together to join the bride's and
groom's hands, gently of course.
18. The bride and groom are now married. They offer up a roast
pig as a "sacrifice."
19. Then there's the matter of the marriage contract. The
tabulae nuptials should have been prepared long ago. It's brought
forth now by the auspex, a priest and best man, and the couple signs
the contract along with the witnesses. A certain number of witnesses
were required for the contract to be legal.
20. A wedding breakfast, rather than a wedding dinner, is paid
for by the groom, even though he may not be there in person. After
eating a breakfast of cakes and egg lace pudding, all the gifts were
presented to the new couple.
21. The procession started after that. Now everything moves from
the bride's villa to the groom's. If there's no villa, then from the
bride's little hut to the groom's. The procession is like a pageant
and is called the deduction in domum mariti. It's also referred to
as the pompa for short.
22. Now the dramatic skit starts. Everything has drama in it in
ancient Rome. The couple and guests put on a wedding play. It's
almost always the same skit: The seize of the Sabines. The bride
clings or hugs her mother, and the groom pulls her out of her
mother's arms. Then the bride had to find three boys whose both
parents were alive and well callead the patarimi et matrimi to take
the bride or lead the bride away from her mother's arms while the
guests shouted jokes and/or obscenities. The groom chose one boy to
light a pine torch and carry another torch called a spina alba, a
special torch lit only from the bride's home, usually from her
fireplace or similar hearth.
23. Another boy throws walnuts (shelled) at the couple being
careful not to throw small pieces in the bride's ear where they
can't be removed, or in her eyes. So they aim the walnuts at her
legs. The nuts symbolize the wish for fertility of the bride.
24. What does the bride carry? Blueberries and wreaths, a
spindle and distaff symbolizing her role as a wife who weaves and
stays at home, and hopefully she carries nothing catching other than
the catch of the day.
25. The groom lights the torches symbolizing bringing knowledge
to the darkness.
26. The groom also sings verses called "Fescenennine poems."
27. The bride touches water and fire "aquae et ignis
communication" symbolizing a life of cooking food and washing the
soiled clothing.
28. She touches the mini-marriage bed symbolizing the separate
spirits of the bride and groom. His spirit guide is genius and her
spirit guide is juno.
29. The groom had to be at home in his own house before the
bride arrived there so he could greet her. The processions split
into two pageants called the uxorem ducere/deducere.
30. The mother of the bride yells, "epithalamia" and dances a
leap to move the spirits to cheer the couple on to consummate the
marriage, but consummation of a marriage wasn't required for the
marriage to be legal, not on the wedding night, and not decades
later. So celibate couples with adopted children were accepted.
31. The mother and bride finally arrive at the groom's house and
toss away their torches in a traditional ritual. The bride now takes
out a small jar or pot of fat or oil and rubs the grease on the
doorway and hangs a wreath and a piece of wool to symbolize her life
as a domestic hostess. She tiptoes across the threshold. In the
later republic she is carried over the threshold. The reason is that
it's a bad omen, an evil eye curse to step on the threshold or trip
over it. If she stumbles over her clothing on the way to her groom's
house, it's a bad omen that he'll trip her up or abuse her.
32. The new house is now a place for the bride to touch water
and fire to symbolize her role as chief cook and bottle washer, as
domestic housewife and stay at home mom, dedicated to a life of
cooking and washing with spinning on the side. She must not trip
over the groom's miniature marriage bed in the hallway.
33. Consummation of marriage was part of the ceremony for those
who chose. The marriage of young people—girls at age 12, boys at
14, but usually older, 17 for girls was most common, and men older,
saw to it that the room was decorated with objects of fertility and
phallic symbols. Girls as young as seven in some families were
married to older men or boys a few years older, but did not move to
the groom's home until they both were old enough to start a family
and their own household.
34. The marriage bed room was decorated with fruit and flowers.
Green leaves were put in the windows. The marriage bed was called
the torus genialis. For the last time, the bride's parents handed
the bride over to the groom. Still, there was an escort into the
bedroom, called the pronuba. The pronuba led the bride with her eyes
closed by one hand into the bedroom. The pronuba had to be an old,
married woman whose husband was still alive and who only had been
married once. She had to represent a faithful wife.
35. She told the bride what she has to do on her wedding night
and as a faithful wife thereafter—washing, cooking, spinning,
weaving and care or leadership of the house hold or servants doing
the household chores. The bride either did it herself or if she was
rich had servants, but she still had to tell them how to do it and
what to do in the domestic life—cooking, washing, cleaning, and
shopping for which foods. The pronuba's job was to teach the bride
what the bride must do to run her home on a daily basis such as how
to get find and judge the best cuts of meat or vegetables. The bride
needed a mentor. That was the pronuba's duty.
36. In the bedroom the pronuba prayed with the bride on how to
be the incarnation of a faithful wife and how to ask for a blessing
on the union.
37. The pronuba then undressed the bride, took away her jewelry
and put it in a safe place and asked the bride to get into bed,
under the covers. Then the pronuba took her leave. Later, the groom
entered escorted by those who he choose to take with him to his
marriage bed room. Or he could enter alone. Outside, the pronuba
offered a sacrifice of cakes made of cheese, honey, and flour, and
then went home. Finally the groom's friends took a hint and left the
couple alone. Oustide the marriage bedroom, the wedding feast
continued with the relatives feasting, singing, and dancing.
38. No consummation of the marriage would be done until there
was a performance of a play with the actors being the bride and
groom. Yep, another skit in the marriage bedroom. The play consisted
of actual lines and drama from a skit. The bride had to play being
not interested at all in consummating the marriage. The groom would
beg her to change her mind. She had to put on a crying act and turn
him away. He'd speak to her love poetry. She'd signal him by
addressing him as "husband," and he calling her "wife." After an
actual play with recited lines were said, or at least play-acting of
reluctance, the groom had to learn how to untie a very complex tight
knot around her waist. She wore nothing but a girdle with this rope
knotted so it would take him a long time to get the knot untied—a
way of making sure he was patient and slow to anger.
39. When and if he finally figured out how to untie the knot in
the rope around her waist fastened around her girdle or a band of
cloth around her waist, the only thing she was wearing under the bed
clothing, he proved himself worthy to consummate the marriage or at
least agree to her wishes that it wasn't required.
40. There was even a law about the consummation of marriage. It
was called the law of foedus lecti, a contract of fidelity. However,
consummation wasn't necessary or required by law for the marriage to
be legal. Whatever the couple decided, no one asked in the morning.
The bride emerged the next day to her family and guests with a new
name, "matrona" or matron. She was no longer considered a young
girl, but a matron and was supposed to act and look
matronly "matrona."
41. The most important emphasis on the marriage besides having
heirs was that the bride now belongs to the new family's religio.
That night another grand feast and pageant would take place with the
wedding guests called the repotia. That's the main wedding feast
dinner and drinks. It was a party in every sense of the word.
42. You, too could have your own Roman wedding feast, at least
in costume and food with maybe some Latin vows. All you need is a
menu and a skit for the wedding procession split into the bride and
groom's pageant where you meet at one location.
43. What to serve at an ancient Roman breakfast wedding feast:

Serve this ancient Roman recipe for egged toast.
Put out a plate of fresh balls of Mozarella cheese—the kind made
fresh from whole milk. This gives some protein to the egg bread
served on the side.
Take several slices for each party member of good, thick egg bread.
Dip the egg bread into a mixture of egg and goat milk. I prefer low-
fat Meyenberg goat milk I can buy in the health food section of the
supermarket. You use your favorite brand.
Coat the egg bread in the mixture of beaten eggs and milk. Fry in
hot extra virgin cold pressed olive oil until golden brown. Drain
off the oil and put on a platter.

Now in some more olive oil fry sliced dried fruit—apricots,
strawberries, raisins, currents, sliced peeled apples, or any fruit
you want. I like bananas. Drain and add orange blossom honey to the
olive oil mixture. You can also use maple syrup, but honey is more
ancient Roman. Pour the syrup and dried fruit over the egg toast and
serve with a ball of baked ricotta cheese and honey on the side.

Octavia Fabia Scriba
http://reminiscencemedia.tripod.com
or
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:46:09 -0600

ok
why?

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

> The patricians ran the Republic into
> the ground.<<
>
As a Roman historian I take issue with this generalization.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Your Big Fat Ancient Roman Wedding
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:56:17 -0600

http://www.pogodesigns.com/JP/weddings/romanwed.html

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:38 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Your Big Fat Ancient Roman Wedding

Ancient Roman Wedding Procedure
By: Octavia Fabia Scriba

Here are the 43 Steps to Your Ancient Roman Wedding.

A Roman wedding ring symbolized the rope that bound the bridal
wrists in times so ancient it occurred before ancient Rome. Yet it
also symbolized the circular nature of nature itself which
symbolized recurrence, rebirth, and rhythm. By the Republic era of
ancient Rome, the wedding ring was then thought to bind the nerve
that ran from the finger to the heart, thereby caging the bride's
heart or seat of emotions as a caged bird that sings. Yet the liver
was supposed to be the seat of emotions, but never the brain. A lot
took place between the time of negotiation and engagement before a
wedding, a lot of planning, thought, and family social climbing,
when possible.
You can have three types of Roman weddings. In ancient Rome there
were three different kinds of weddings. You could have the
confarreatio. This is the patrician marriage assuming the bride's
and groom's parents also were married with confarreatio. You'd have
a grand ceremony with ten witnesses.
You'd need a Flamen Dialis and Pontifex Maximus to conduct the
wedding. The bride goes straight from her paterfamilias to the
groom. Divorce was almost unheard of. A patrician divorce was
difficult to obtain and rare, but if gotten, a diffareatio required
a sacrifice before the wife was returned to her father..The bride is
literally handed into her father's arms. "manus of her
paterfamilias."
You could have a plebeian wedding and have a common Roman marriage
where "manus" called the coemptio. The groom purchased the bride.
The groom pays nummus usus, a penny, and gets the bride in exchange
for the penny. It's not a real sale, but symbolizes the traditional
bride purchase of years gone by before ancient Roman times. For a
common wedding, you only need five witnesses. The wedding is
informal, but the bride is given to her husband's family.
The third kind of Roman marriage is unusual because it was
not used by the end of the Republic and labeled old fashioned. It
went out with the end of the Republic. It was called the "usus" and
was a practical marriage that did not require any type of ritual or
ceremony. This type of marriage existed in the days of the early
Republic and before that when there were kings in Rome. By 80 BCE,
it was termed obsolete.
In this wedding, the bride was transferred to the "manus" of the
groom (or the bride is handed over to the groom) after cohabitation
for a year. At the beginning of the cohabitation where the two would
simply live together for a set time, the couple would take an oath
of adfectus maritalis, fidelity in marriage. After the year was up,
the bride then belonged to the husband or "passed into his hands."
The only way to get out of that cohabitation marriage was if the
woman was away from the husband's home for three nights in a row,
she would not have to pass into the husband's clutches, `er hands. .
or rather his "manus."

1. No ceremony was needed to legalize your wedding. So it's
okay to live together for two weeks in order to acquire "adfectus
maritalis," and thereby have your wedding recognized as legal in
Rome. However, most patrician families insisted upon a rite of
marriage ceremony-a wedding and wedding feast.
2. First the bride renounces her infanthood. She begins by
giving away her childhood toys and her children's garb called the
toga praetexta. She proceeds to take three baths, one in cold water,
one in lukewarm water, and one in heated water, comfortable but
warm. She scrubs her body with a mixture of warm extra virgin olive
oil, cold pressed, of course.
3. To the bowl of olive oil is added whole and pressed cloves,
pot purri dried flowers such as orange blossoms and rose blossoms or
petals and extract of orange blossom and rose petal water, essence
adopted from the Phoenicians-to boil orange and rose petals and wash
with it mixed with olive oil. She rinses her mouth with rose petal
water and eats a fresh apple to clean her teeth, then rubs her teeth
with linen soaked in crushed chalk or similar minerals. (Modern
brides would do fine with calcium powder.). She brushes orange
blossom honey on her tongue.
4. Her hairstyle is unique to the wedding feast and is called
the tutulus. This hairdo involves having her hair combed and parted
into six locks. The Latin term was "sex crines," (no not sex crimes)
crines. Six crines. Her hair is parted into six parts not with a
comb but with a traditional Roman bent iron spearhead called
a "hasta recurva" or "hasta caelibaris." Her hair is parted in six
parts with a bent iron spearhead. (As if that isn't enough of a
phallic symbol at a wedding, the reason for the spearhead in ancient
Rome was that it drove out the evil eye in her hair and any other
evil ghost-spirits.) This custom pops up in other cultures from
Australia to ancient Rome-driving out the evil ones from the hair
with a bent spearhead. This was preceded by a fine carved ivory or
wooden lice comb through the hair and then the spearhead for good
measure.
5. She fastens or has fastened the six hair locks equally
divided in a hexagon over her head with a type of clip or baret
called a vittae.
6. The vittae are fastened on top of her head in a meta. The
meta is shaped like an inverted or standing pyramid or a cone. In
other words, she has six hair spikes sticking up from her head.
However, the meta is not severe looking. Usually the wedding
tradition required that six locks of curled hair be clipped in place
in the shape of a cone.
7. The wedding gown in ancient Rome was only worn one time and
then tossed. It could be off-white, but the wedding veil was bright
red and called the flammeum. And the red veil was the most important
symbol she wore at her wedding.
8. The wedding vows. The woman says in Latin "I veil myself."
She uses the verb "nubo" which is a term used for a cloud "nubes."
What she means is that she's under a cloud or veiled. She's property
under a cloud being exchanged. (Let's see her get to inherit
property with that title report of being under a cloud.)
9. Words related to nubo include nupta, a woman who is married,
nova nupta, a bride, and nuptiae, the wedding from which comes the
English word, nuptials used today for wedding ceremonies and
rituals. Everything in the wedding feast or ritual now is focused on
the bride and her flaming red veil. (Why red? Was she compared to a
rose, or was there a deeper meaning such as the blood proof of her
chastity/virginity that used to be demanded to be viewed from the
window by the public in Sicily and Egypt?)
10. Here's what the veil looked like: You take a rectangular
transparent piece of silk or similar material that's bride red and
drape it on the back of your head and shoulders to your heels. It's
like an oblong flag. Before silk came to Rome it was spun from a
transparent material similar to the type of flimsy, silk-like cloth
from certain Greek islands.
11. You fasten the veil to the cones at the back of your head.
The veil does not go over the face, but down the back and touching
the shoulders. On top of the veil is a wreath of amaracus.
12. A miniature wedding bed was placed in the hallway to cheer
up the couple.
13. Pine cones were lit.
14. The gown consisted of a tunica recta. You can make this out
of a white piece of rectangular cloth of muslin, flannel or silk.
You weave the cloth on an upright loom. The tunica recta is
fashioned with a girdle called a cingulum with a knot at the waist
to tie up the evil spirits so they wouldn't settle in her
reproductive organs.
15. The first half of the wedding feast takes place at the
bride's home of her paterfamilias. The bride's parents search in the
nooks and crannies of the house for omens, and if nothing is found
that's scary, they hand over the bride to the groom.
16. The bride takes the vows "Ubi tu (name of groom), ego (name
of bride), actually, Where you are (male form of name) such as
Claudius, I am (female form of the male's name) Claudia..as
in "Where you are Claudius, I am Claudia." Only you say it in
Latin. "Ubi tu Claudius, ego Claudia."
17. The groom didn't even have to be in the country. He could
send a letter with his part of the words they would exchange with
one another. Then the matron of honor called the pronuba grabs the
couple's hands and shoves them together to join the bride's and
groom's hands, gently of course.
18. The bride and groom are now married. They offer up a roast
pig as a "sacrifice."
19. Then there's the matter of the marriage contract. The
tabulae nuptials should have been prepared long ago. It's brought
forth now by the auspex, a priest and best man, and the couple signs
the contract along with the witnesses. A certain number of witnesses
were required for the contract to be legal.
20. A wedding breakfast, rather than a wedding dinner, is paid
for by the groom, even though he may not be there in person. After
eating a breakfast of cakes and egg lace pudding, all the gifts were
presented to the new couple.
21. The procession started after that. Now everything moves from
the bride's villa to the groom's. If there's no villa, then from the
bride's little hut to the groom's. The procession is like a pageant
and is called the deduction in domum mariti. It's also referred to
as the pompa for short.
22. Now the dramatic skit starts. Everything has drama in it in
ancient Rome. The couple and guests put on a wedding play. It's
almost always the same skit: The seize of the Sabines. The bride
clings or hugs her mother, and the groom pulls her out of her
mother's arms. Then the bride had to find three boys whose both
parents were alive and well callead the patarimi et matrimi to take
the bride or lead the bride away from her mother's arms while the
guests shouted jokes and/or obscenities. The groom chose one boy to
light a pine torch and carry another torch called a spina alba, a
special torch lit only from the bride's home, usually from her
fireplace or similar hearth.
23. Another boy throws walnuts (shelled) at the couple being
careful not to throw small pieces in the bride's ear where they
can't be removed, or in her eyes. So they aim the walnuts at her
legs. The nuts symbolize the wish for fertility of the bride.
24. What does the bride carry? Blueberries and wreaths, a
spindle and distaff symbolizing her role as a wife who weaves and
stays at home, and hopefully she carries nothing catching other than
the catch of the day.
25. The groom lights the torches symbolizing bringing knowledge
to the darkness.
26. The groom also sings verses called "Fescenennine poems."
27. The bride touches water and fire "aquae et ignis
communication" symbolizing a life of cooking food and washing the
soiled clothing.
28. She touches the mini-marriage bed symbolizing the separate
spirits of the bride and groom. His spirit guide is genius and her
spirit guide is juno.
29. The groom had to be at home in his own house before the
bride arrived there so he could greet her. The processions split
into two pageants called the uxorem ducere/deducere.
30. The mother of the bride yells, "epithalamia" and dances a
leap to move the spirits to cheer the couple on to consummate the
marriage, but consummation of a marriage wasn't required for the
marriage to be legal, not on the wedding night, and not decades
later. So celibate couples with adopted children were accepted.
31. The mother and bride finally arrive at the groom's house and
toss away their torches in a traditional ritual. The bride now takes
out a small jar or pot of fat or oil and rubs the grease on the
doorway and hangs a wreath and a piece of wool to symbolize her life
as a domestic hostess. She tiptoes across the threshold. In the
later republic she is carried over the threshold. The reason is that
it's a bad omen, an evil eye curse to step on the threshold or trip
over it. If she stumbles over her clothing on the way to her groom's
house, it's a bad omen that he'll trip her up or abuse her.
32. The new house is now a place for the bride to touch water
and fire to symbolize her role as chief cook and bottle washer, as
domestic housewife and stay at home mom, dedicated to a life of
cooking and washing with spinning on the side. She must not trip
over the groom's miniature marriage bed in the hallway.
33. Consummation of marriage was part of the ceremony for those
who chose. The marriage of young people-girls at age 12, boys at
14, but usually older, 17 for girls was most common, and men older,
saw to it that the room was decorated with objects of fertility and
phallic symbols. Girls as young as seven in some families were
married to older men or boys a few years older, but did not move to
the groom's home until they both were old enough to start a family
and their own household.
34. The marriage bed room was decorated with fruit and flowers.
Green leaves were put in the windows. The marriage bed was called
the torus genialis. For the last time, the bride's parents handed
the bride over to the groom. Still, there was an escort into the
bedroom, called the pronuba. The pronuba led the bride with her eyes
closed by one hand into the bedroom. The pronuba had to be an old,
married woman whose husband was still alive and who only had been
married once. She had to represent a faithful wife.
35. She told the bride what she has to do on her wedding night
and as a faithful wife thereafter-washing, cooking, spinning,
weaving and care or leadership of the house hold or servants doing
the household chores. The bride either did it herself or if she was
rich had servants, but she still had to tell them how to do it and
what to do in the domestic life-cooking, washing, cleaning, and
shopping for which foods. The pronuba's job was to teach the bride
what the bride must do to run her home on a daily basis such as how
to get find and judge the best cuts of meat or vegetables. The bride
needed a mentor. That was the pronuba's duty.
36. In the bedroom the pronuba prayed with the bride on how to
be the incarnation of a faithful wife and how to ask for a blessing
on the union.
37. The pronuba then undressed the bride, took away her jewelry
and put it in a safe place and asked the bride to get into bed,
under the covers. Then the pronuba took her leave. Later, the groom
entered escorted by those who he choose to take with him to his
marriage bed room. Or he could enter alone. Outside, the pronuba
offered a sacrifice of cakes made of cheese, honey, and flour, and
then went home. Finally the groom's friends took a hint and left the
couple alone. Oustide the marriage bedroom, the wedding feast
continued with the relatives feasting, singing, and dancing.
38. No consummation of the marriage would be done until there
was a performance of a play with the actors being the bride and
groom. Yep, another skit in the marriage bedroom. The play consisted
of actual lines and drama from a skit. The bride had to play being
not interested at all in consummating the marriage. The groom would
beg her to change her mind. She had to put on a crying act and turn
him away. He'd speak to her love poetry. She'd signal him by
addressing him as "husband," and he calling her "wife." After an
actual play with recited lines were said, or at least play-acting of
reluctance, the groom had to learn how to untie a very complex tight
knot around her waist. She wore nothing but a girdle with this rope
knotted so it would take him a long time to get the knot untied-a
way of making sure he was patient and slow to anger.
39. When and if he finally figured out how to untie the knot in
the rope around her waist fastened around her girdle or a band of
cloth around her waist, the only thing she was wearing under the bed
clothing, he proved himself worthy to consummate the marriage or at
least agree to her wishes that it wasn't required.
40. There was even a law about the consummation of marriage. It
was called the law of foedus lecti, a contract of fidelity. However,
consummation wasn't necessary or required by law for the marriage to
be legal. Whatever the couple decided, no one asked in the morning.
The bride emerged the next day to her family and guests with a new
name, "matrona" or matron. She was no longer considered a young
girl, but a matron and was supposed to act and look
matronly "matrona."
41. The most important emphasis on the marriage besides having
heirs was that the bride now belongs to the new family's religio.
That night another grand feast and pageant would take place with the
wedding guests called the repotia. That's the main wedding feast
dinner and drinks. It was a party in every sense of the word.
42. You, too could have your own Roman wedding feast, at least
in costume and food with maybe some Latin vows. All you need is a
menu and a skit for the wedding procession split into the bride and
groom's pageant where you meet at one location.
43. What to serve at an ancient Roman breakfast wedding feast:

Serve this ancient Roman recipe for egged toast.
Put out a plate of fresh balls of Mozarella cheese-the kind made
fresh from whole milk. This gives some protein to the egg bread
served on the side.
Take several slices for each party member of good, thick egg bread.
Dip the egg bread into a mixture of egg and goat milk. I prefer low-
fat Meyenberg goat milk I can buy in the health food section of the
supermarket. You use your favorite brand.
Coat the egg bread in the mixture of beaten eggs and milk. Fry in
hot extra virgin cold pressed olive oil until golden brown. Drain
off the oil and put on a platter.

Now in some more olive oil fry sliced dried fruit-apricots,
strawberries, raisins, currents, sliced peeled apples, or any fruit
you want. I like bananas. Drain and add orange blossom honey to the
olive oil mixture. You can also use maple syrup, but honey is more
ancient Roman. Pour the syrup and dried fruit over the egg toast and
serve with a ball of baked ricotta cheese and honey on the side.

Octavia Fabia Scriba
http://reminiscencemedia.tripod.com
or
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:56:47 -0600

I never wrote that.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

In a message dated 2/2/03 6:59:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> A Man's Republic for Men.

Of course we'd be in breech of title IX. But all the study grants that have
been refused are
partially because we allow women positions of authority in NR. It makes us
an imperfect model. However I am hopeful. The women here are educated
people, which of course
qualifies them to be magistrates. I'm hoping to prove that women in power
here in NR are as aggressive as males. If we can prove this, those
objections would have to be dropped.
We did have a rich man offer money. And he would have been a Plebeian. But
the dot com went bust and that ship has sailed.
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 00:59:21 -0500

Salve I am calling ojne of the Senator to Talk and must sigh off in order to do so
Night

----- Original Message -----
From: James LaSalle
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 12:58 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

I never wrote that.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

In a message dated 2/2/03 6:59:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> A Man's Republic for Men.

Of course we'd be in breech of title IX. But all the study grants that have
been refused are
partially because we allow women positions of authority in NR. It makes us
an imperfect model. However I am hopeful. The women here are educated
people, which of course
qualifies them to be magistrates. I'm hoping to prove that women in power
here in NR are as aggressive as males. If we can prove this, those
objections would have to be dropped.
We did have a rich man offer money. And he would have been a Plebeian. But
the dot com went bust and that ship has sailed.
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:57:55 -0600

In the words of Emeril: Bamm!!

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
As I join this debate I want you and everybody on this list to know up front that am doing so
ABSIT INVIDIA " LET ILL WII BE ABSENT"
I come to debate not to argue or to be argumentative

LSD>First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of having
a city where our citizens can live.
TGP then maybe we should change the goal.
LSD Our goal is similar to what the Catholic Church realized in 1929,
a small administrative forum that is the focus of the
Religio and our culture.
TGP When Italy was unified in 1860 they took over by CONQUEST and by the consent of a majority of Romans( the people who lived in the City of Rome) the territory of the Papal States, a political and religious entity that goes back into the middle ages. They did so again the fierce opposition of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Popes in power . The RCC held out the hope and aspiration to reclaim the Papal States from a united Italy from 1860 until 1929 when a Concordat was signed between Italy and the Catholic Church. This came about only because the RCC finally excepted that a united Italy was here to stay. The RCC took what it could get at this point and the was the Vatican City State
LSD> We wish to acquire at least
108 acres for this purpose. Once we acquire this land
it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
living quarters for those who want to relocate to the
forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair to
expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
realize that dream.
TGP>An administrative center that is bigger that an office building would require a City or town to offer services that the officials will need. Water, sewers, (electricity or gas?) even the office building would need these services. Are the magistrates of NR going to live in their office? No they're going to live in Roman like houses in a Roman like City or town. They will eat in restaurants that serve Roman food, by chefs trained at the Nova Roman Culinary Institute, one of the many private business that will establish themselves in the New Capital City of Nova Roma by Nova Romans.
( I intend to establish the culinary school in the city so nobody steal this name ok)
LSD> The Catholic Church has never had a goal of having
large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
The Vatican is the administrative center for Catholics
living all over the world.
TPG only by default, not by design of the Popes or the RCC
and the fact that The Vatican City State is located in the center of ROME a city of millions might also play a role ,further the people who help run/staff the Vatican City State all live , with one or two notable exceptions in the City of Rome. No need to import them.
Our goal is to achieve the
same status, an administrative center, not an
independent city.
TGP Why?
We hold CITIZENSHIP in Nova Roma! By definition citizens needs a City as in ancient Rome or in the modern world a Nation-State . Rome /The Vatican City State is the administrative center of the RCC and has been ( with the exception of the time the Popes lived in France ) for centuries .

LSD> Since we have citizens who wish to acquire land near
the forum, I have suggested that we attempt to acquire a
much larger plot of land than we need for the forum. I
Have suggested that we acquire 1000 acres, set aside 200
for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in one
acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
the purchase.
TGP no we sell the land at a reasonable mark up to fill the treasury of Nova Roma.
This will allow us to build the Temples and other Nova Roma building we would need. Like a museum on Roman culture and history, which will bring in the tourists that will again fill the treasury .
This will require a higher initial
outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
the treasury that can be used to start construction.
One thing has to be made clear though.
LSD These plots will not be part of a city of Nova Roma.
TGP Again I ask WHY?
LSD >They will belike owning land in the city of Roma near the Vatican,
they will remain under the control of some modern
nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.
TGP> Are you implying that Nova Roma can at sometime in the future, get land for the Forum that would have Sovereignty but not land next to it? Nova Roma can only get sovereignty by acquiring it from a political entity that already holds it.

LDS> As for the orders, they are needed to maintain the
ancient system of government, and there are some
offices in the Religio that are only open to
Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is not
only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
reason Nova Roma was founded.
TGP> In reality there are no citizens of Nova Roma that are TRUE physical decedents of the Patricians .You have embarked on a noble effort to re-establish the Roman religion. But because a thousand years or more has elapsed since it was last practiced any modifications you make to it would by nature make it NEW. We have women in new roles the Roman would not have allowed. What would the religious leaders of Ancient Rome say about these and other changes made to accommodate the 21st century?
Again with ABSIT INVIDIA
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 00:01:38 -0600

"Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness to."

That would be the funniest thing I've ever read in here if it wasn't so pathetic.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: cassius622@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:24 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola writes:

What I see is fiscal reality. The treasury according to the last public
figures contains a whooping $2076.85. What can we do with that? Perhaps the
Senate could authorize the buying of 2076 lottery tickets? Buy some
collectables on Ebay and hope to auction them off later at a profit?"

After 5 years?!?! $2000?!?!?!

Salve,

Interesting you should bring up the subject of finances, as they make an
excellent general example of the difficulties Nova Roma has faced.

At the founding, it was hoped that NR could fund itself through means other
than a direct membership fee. We wanted Nova Roma to be available to everyone
equally all over the world. The original idea was to fund Nova Roma through a
variety of means including the sales of government products, money from the
Ordo Equester, money generated by Roman events and festivals, charitable
donations, etc.

Unfortunately, after two years it became painfully obvious that no startup
volunteer organization could make such funding work. The Ordo Equester
remained very small (we only just now have nine vendors), and while the state
business endeavors were profitable, they could not be run at a high enough
level on the purely volunteer basis required. If we wanted to fund things
like land, events, charitable Roman endeavors, etc, members would need to
provide funding just as people do in pretty much all other organizations.

So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations make
all large endeavors difficult.)

When taxes were first proposed Nova Roma had almost a thousand people. The
idea raised almost a thousand separate violent opinions. The reaction ranged
the complete gamut, from "That's not enough, dues must be at least $45 per
person!", to "PEOPLE OF NOVA ROMA, THE OPPRESSORS ARE OUT TO STEAL YOUR
MONEY! WE MUST ALL RISE UP IN REVOLT!" Such conflicting, empassioned
messages clogged the forums for weeks on end.

It was nearly impossible to find legal consensus among all the various
opinions and views. For every one person willing to pay the tax, there was
another who refused, and another *demanding* the tax structure must be
completely different, another who was furiously indignant that poorer
Citizens and our brothers and sisters in various countries might not be able
to pay, etc. etc.

Literally months of argument ensued. Citizens resigned. A trial tax program
was started in a provincia... and then the magistrates in that province
resigned, taking the money with them. Finally, after an insane amount of
fighting, a completely *voluntary* tax was put in place. Still more Citizens
resigned; they formed a separate Roman organization in a large part because
they claimed the NR government was being oppressive to its Citizens in daring
to try and fund the treasury. People still continue to argue about taxation
to this day. What say you, Citizens of Nova Roma? Would you each care to
share your individual ideas concerning NR taxation with Gaius Basilicatus
Agricola? ;)

Yeah, Nova Roma only has $2,000 in the treasury. I can sincerely state that
they have been the most difficultly achieved $2,000 I have ever been witness
to.

The magistrates and Senate of Nova Roma have the completely unenviable task
of having to reach something approximating 'general consensus' with *every
issue* that Nova Roma faces. We are a completely volunteer society, and our
government obviously has no real 'power' over the Citizens. The Comitiae make
the decisions, and there are always some who refuse to reconcile even with
those voted decisions.

Take yourself and the issue of Plebians and Patricians. I guarantee you the
vast majority of Citizens have no problem with maintaining at least a shadow
of those ancient classes, so that certain offices can be held in the
traditional manner. Do you accept this? No. Will you ever? I don't believe
so. If the Comitiae were to revote the issue and uphold the classes, would
you accept that vote? From what I've seen, my guess is still "no". I think
you consider the classes so unfair, the only possible solution in your world
is for us all to do what *you* demand.

There are people with the same passionate opinions as yours on *every issue*
that Nova Roma has ever faced, and who refuse to live with other
decisions/solutions no matter what the odds. Do you truly wonder why things
have not progressed as much as you wish?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:28:53 +0100

Salve dearest Scorpio,

< Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States
herself, by the way < (but has Italian roots).

Yup, you're right, I even have some real Roman blood in my veins. My family
is from the west of Sicily (from Greece sometime even further back), which
is also where the Temple of Venus Erucina was. And as far as moving up the
classes, I will be 'officially' a Belgian in March. Mark your calendar for
the party!!!
Vale,
Diana Moravia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Reply to Basilicatus regarding the NR Treasury
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:39:04 EST

In a message dated 2/2/03 10:03:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> So the idea of a tax was raised. The reaction among the Citizens was, um,
> 'mixed'. (And here, BTW, is the example - our mixed ideals/expectations
> make
> all large endeavors difficult.)
>
>

HA HA!
Cassius you are funny!

When the Senate started to discuss taxation under my and Marcus Minucius
consulship, we had Senators so incensed that they leaked the plan to people
even though discussion was sealed in an attempt to start on outcry against
it.
After we got that calmed down, Marcus Cassius who had been against the plan
from the beginning (remember all our e-mails, Cassius?) changed sides and
backed it. Which was a big plus to the pro dues/taxation side of the debate.

This finally brought F. Vedius into the fold.
Now, you might hate dues. But we need them. Because that is part one of any
plan to carry out our goals. To succeed in this world you need money. (Or
strong legiones which take money to raise. :-) )
And I can assure you citizens, the Senators are not taking this money for
home improvements, like some people suggested. Every penny invested in Rome
stays in Rome,
for Roman purposes.
I am glad that this question was raised. It gives me a chance to remind the
people that dues will soon be due. Last year I paid taxes for 6 friends. I
would have never done this if I did not believe in NR, and the eventual
accomplishment of our goals.
REMEMBER PAY YOUR DUES! The people that do are the first class citizens and
believe in Rome and her goals, in my opinion.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 04:52:36 EST

In a message dated 2/2/03 7:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get Caesar's to
> sponsor us.

That is already underway. But we have a couple of problems that has to do
with our corporate status in order to get sponsors.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:16:22 -0800 (PST)

Salve Gaius,

> And we need a plan.

Yes, Nova Roma needs a plan, but this has already been given to the citizens. During the
last consular campaign, honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus has proposed a long term
plan that the citizens have largely approved.
You could read all the posts that have been sent during the campaign for reference.

Vale,

=====
Sextus Apollonius Scipio

Consular Quaestor 2756 AUC
Propraetor Galliae
Sodalitas Egressus, Praefectus for France -- French Translator
Scriba Explorator Primus et Scriba Fiscalis Primus Academiae Thules
NRLandProject, acting Praefectus Pecuniae

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:32:40 -0800 (PST)

Salve Tiberius Galerius,

The Majority of Italians living under the rule of the
Papal states supported Liberation from the Pope's
direct rule. Secular feeling was very strong against
the Church. That is why there was no settlement of the
dispute over the Papal secular claims until Italy was
ruled by a Dictator who didn't have to worry about
popular opinion.

The chances of any nation recognizing our claims for
soverngity over an administrative forum are
execeedengly small. The chances that they will
recognize an actual new nation with large numbers of
citizens are nil.

If we become a sepratist movement, one advocating a
physical sovergin status we will come under close
observation by National police forces. Given the
violent actions that some sepratist movements have
turned to and today's political climate some of our
citizens could find themselves in legal trouble for
belonging to an organization with those goals.

There might be some third world nation in finical
trouble, or with a dictator who has expensive tastes
who would be willing to part with the soverngity of an
island for a price, but that price will be far higher
than just the land value. We are talking tens of
Millions, if not hundreds of Millions of dollars. Even
then the new nation will face an ever present danger
from people who feel Nova Roma has stolen part of
thier national heiratage. We could find ourselves in
the same postion as Isreal.

A Forum without sovergin status is an attainable goal
in the next few years. An independant nation will be
about as easy to achive as a Martian colony.

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
> As I join this debate I want you and everybody on
> this list to know up front that am doing so
> ABSIT INVIDIA
> " LET ILL WII BE ABSENT"
> I come to debate not to argue or to be argumentative
>
> LSD>First of all Nova Roma has never had a goal of
> having
> a city where our citizens can live.
> TGP then maybe we should change the goal.
> LSD Our goal is similar to what the Catholic Church
> realized in 1929,
> a small administrative forum that is the focus of
> the
> Religio and our culture.
> TGP When Italy was unified in 1860 they took over
> by CONQUEST and by the consent of a majority of
> Romans( the people who lived in the City of Rome)
> the territory of the Papal States, a political and
> religious entity that goes back into the middle
> ages. They did so again the fierce opposition of the
> Roman Catholic Church and of the Popes in power .
> The RCC held out the hope and aspiration to reclaim
> the Papal States from a united Italy from 1860
> until 1929 when a Concordat was signed between Italy
> and the Catholic Church. This came about only
> because the RCC finally excepted that a united Italy
> was here to stay. The RCC took what it could get at
> this point and the was the Vatican City State
> LSD> We wish to acquire at least
> 108 acres for this purpose. Once we acquire this
> land
> it will be used for Temples and offices, not for
> living quarters for those who want to relocate to
> the
> forum. I realize that some of our citizens have a
> desire to live near the forum, but it's hardly fair
> to
> expect those who can't relocate to pay for others to
> realize that dream.
> TGP>An administrative center that is bigger that an
> office building would require a City or town to
> offer services that the officials will need. Water,
> sewers, (electricity or gas?) even the office
> building would need these services. Are the
> magistrates of NR going to live in their office? No
> they're going to live in Roman like houses in a
> Roman like City or town. They will eat in
> restaurants that serve Roman food, by chefs trained
> at the Nova Roman Culinary Institute, one of the
> many private business that will establish themselves
> in the New Capital City of Nova Roma by Nova Romans.
>
> ( I intend to establish the culinary school in the
> city so nobody steal this name ok)
> LSD> The Catholic Church has never had a goal of
> having
> large numbers of Catholics emigrate to the Vatican.
> The Vatican is the administrative center for
> Catholics
> living all over the world.
> TPG only by default, not by design of the Popes or
> the RCC
> and the fact that The Vatican City State is located
> in the center of ROME a city of millions might also
> play a role ,further the people who help run/staff
> the Vatican City State all live , with one or two
> notable exceptions in the City of Rome. No need to
> import them.
> Our goal is to achieve the
> same status, an administrative center, not an
> independent city.
> TGP Why?
> We hold CITIZENSHIP in Nova Roma! By definition
> citizens needs a City as in ancient Rome or in the
> modern world a Nation-State . Rome /The Vatican
> City State is the administrative center of the RCC
> and has been ( with the exception of the time the
> Popes lived in France ) for centuries .
>
> LSD> Since we have citizens who wish to acquire land
> near
> the forum, I have suggested that we attempt to
> acquire a
> much larger plot of land than we need for the forum.
> I
> Have suggested that we acquire 1000 acres, set aside
> 200
> for a forum and offer the remainder to citizens in
> one
> acre plots that sell for enough to cover the cost of
> the purchase.
> TGP no we sell the land at a reasonable mark up to
> fill the treasury of Nova Roma.
> This will allow us to build the Temples and other
> Nova Roma building we would need. Like a museum on
> Roman culture and history, which will bring in the
> tourists that will again fill the treasury .
> This will require a higher initial
> outlay, but has the advantage of returning funds to
> the treasury that can be used to start construction.
> One thing has to be made clear though.
> LSD These plots will not be part of a city of Nova
> Roma.
> TGP Again I ask WHY?
> LSD >They will belike owning land in the city of
> Roma near the Vatican,
> they will remain under the control of some modern
> nation, regardless of the legal status of the Forum.
> TGP> Are you implying that Nova Roma can at
> sometime in the future, get land for the Forum that
> would have Sovereignty but not land next to it?
> Nova Roma can only get sovereignty by acquiring it
> from a political entity that already holds it.
>
> LDS> As for the orders, they are needed to maintain
> the
> ancient system of government, and there are some
> offices in the Religio that are only open to
> Patricians. We can't restore the Religio without a
> Patrician order, and restoration of the Religio is
> not
> only one of Nova Roma's goals, it is the primary
> reason Nova Roma was founded.
> TGP> In reality there are no citizens of Nova Roma
> that are TRUE physical decedents of the Patricians
> .You have embarked on a noble effort to re-establish
> the Roman religion. But because a thousand years or
> more has elapsed since it was last practiced any
> modifications you make to it would by nature make it
> NEW. We have women in new roles the Roman would not
> have allowed. What would the religious leaders of
> Ancient Rome say about these and other changes made
> to accommodate the 21st century?
> Again with ABSIT INVIDIA
> Vale
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Citizen
> Fortuna Favet Fortibus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:52:08 +0100

Salvete citizens,

Lately I have been thinking very hard on ways to speed up the election
process of the Plebeian magistrates. I have a *very simple* idea for the
run-off elections, which I am posting here for discussions sake. If there is
positive feedback, I will write it up officially as a Plebiscite and the
Comitia Plebis Tributa can vote on it during the next run-off election which
will take place within the next 4 weeks.

According to the LEX LABIENIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM "In
the case of a magisterial election, candidates must receive votes from at
least 18 of the 35 tribes in order to win"

And now some numbers: those of you who hate numbers, read only what is
between the ***'s.

With each run-off election, interest decreases. This makes it more and more
difficult for any magistrate to win the required 18 Tribes in order be
elected. Using the Tribune elections as my example:

Main Election of Nov 2755: Of 35 Tribes, 34 voted, 18 are needed to win the
election
First run off of Dec 2755 : Of 35 tribes, 29 voted; 18 are needed to win.
Second run-off of Jan 2756: of 35 tribes, 24 voted, 18 are needed to win.

As you can see, it is very difficult for a candidate to win 18 tribes if
only 24 vote.
If the above pattern continues, the third run-off would have only 19 voting
tribes making in pretty impossible for any candidate to receive the required
18 tribes to win. (34 voting tribes, then 29 voting, then 24 voting, down
to possibly 19) the next election

***My idea is the following:

Keep the rules for the first election as they are (re the above mentioned
LEX LABIENIA DE RATIONE COMITIORUM PLEBIS TRIBUTORUM).

For the run-off elections of Plebeian magistrates, I propose that the
required number of tribes needed to win should equal half the number of
voting Tribes plus 1 to give the majority.

In this last election, 24 Tribes voted. Half of that is 12 plus 1 to give
the majority = 13.
Lucius Didius Geminius Sceptius won 13 tribes
Gaius Modius Athanasius won 13 tribes

If my idea had been in effect for the last run-off we would now have our 5
Tribunes instead of the need for at least one more run-off election to fill
the remaining 2 vacant positions. ***

There is already precedent for additional rules to be applied to Plebeian
magistrates during run-off elections. See the LEX SALICIA DE SVFFRAGIIS IN
COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBVTA. My proposal would be in addition to the
above-mentioned Lex Salicia.

Comments, constructive criticism and feedback is welcomed.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:05:57 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Basilicatus Agricola"
<jlasalle@k...> wrote:
>

<snipped>

> Appoint a commission. Do what you do. Give us plan. Show us the
way. Lead us.

Oh, take the DECENVIROS/DECENVIRS back! (Damn you, Appius Claudius!
The historical one, I mean!)

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:09:36 -0600

Maybe I can help.

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)

In a message dated 2/2/03 7:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jlasalle@kc.rr.com writes:

> Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get Caesar's to
> sponsor us.

That is already underway. But we have a couple of problems that has to do
with our corporate status in order to get sponsors.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"James LaSalle" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:11:18 -0600

Congratulations!

Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?

Salve dearest Scorpio,

< Not so, actually. Diana Moravia originally is from the United States
herself, by the way < (but has Italian roots).

Yup, you're right, I even have some real Roman blood in my veins. My family
is from the west of Sicily (from Greece sometime even further back), which
is also where the Temple of Venus Erucina was. And as far as moving up the
classes, I will be 'officially' a Belgian in March. Mark your calendar for
the party!!!
Vale,
Diana Moravia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 14:16:34 -0000

I can help too! If the idea of a production company tickles anyones
elses fancy, I can offer my experience as a theater costume
designer. This is a serious offer.

Arnamentia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "James LaSalle" <jlasalle@k...>
wrote:
> Maybe I can help.
>
>
> Gaius Basilicatus Agricola
> Scriba Curatoris Differum Lex Iuridicalis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: qfabiusmaxmi@a...
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Goals and a Plan (Was: Quo Vadis?)
>
>
> In a message dated 2/2/03 7:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jlasalle@k... writes:
>
>
> > Put together a convention, in Vegas, at Caesar's Palace. Get
Caesar's to
> > sponsor us.
>
> That is already underway. But we have a couple of problems that
has to do
> with our corporate status in order to get sponsors.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 14:17:32 -0000

> I will be 'officially' a Belgian in March.

Go, girl! Congratulations!

Arnamentia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Meritocracy & other stuff
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:26:47 +0100

Salve Gaius Basilicatus Agricola,

<What I propose is an equal starting point where those who want to achieve
and serve will rise. A <meritocracy.
A meritocracy is exactly what we have in Nova Roma. The Plebeians do have an
edge in this in that they can serve in an additional 2 positions, can prove
themselves faster and rise faster (if this is what they want). The
magistrates are elected because the people see that someone is active (for
example, as an appointed Scriba) and so vote for them to hold an office. The
Senators are appointed for precisely the same reason (work first, titles
later). The Pat/Pleb thing is and always has been a non-issue. I originally
joined NR in Aug 1999 and didn't realize until Oct 2002 that I was a
Plebeian (I know: duh).

Plans: We regularly have people making plans or proposing new ideas (for
example S. Apollonius mentioned the official plan of C Fabius and G. Modius
mentioned his local group idea). It is very difficult to get one's ideas
implemented here-- things take time. The key phrase here would be 'you can
please some of the people all of the time but all of the people none of the
time). Nova Roma has accomplished a lot in five years: so we are getting
there bit by bit.

And you're absolutely right, we need money! And so I hope that when the tax
season is announced everyone will pay, even if it's only a few dollars.
Every little bit helps. Most of us learn a lot in Nova Roma and this saves
each of us the need to buy certain books or even take a course or two. The
least we could all do is pay our taxes!

Off topic stuff:
<Congratulations!
Thanks! Even though I can understand Dutch fluently, I still have a whopper
of an accent when I speak it. Even worse, when I visit my old neighborhood
in NYC, I constantly am told 'ya tork funny' and then asked if I am
Canadian. So most times I feel like a woman without a macronational country,
rather than a citizen of 2. Jeeez...

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A Plan
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:37:27 -0500 (EST)

For those who believe that "A Plan" is necessary, may I respectfully
suggest that you develop your idea of a plan and submit it to the Senate
for thier review and approval. Such is the way we do things in Nova
Roma.

Ideas are fine, but those who undertake to further a project other than
simply to talk about it, are even more valuable.

In regard to a physical place for Nova Roma, over the years many ideas
have been submitted, some not very well thought out, and some were quite
valuable. There is a List for subsequent discussion of this subject,
and in the Sodalitas Egressus there is a fairly complete list of the
above suggestions as gathered by Dominus Praefectus Serapio of the
Sodalitas Egressus, for anyone to utilize in "Establishing or Developing
a Plan" for this particular concern.

Each of us in Nova Roma have our share of available time to spend here,
and our interests, concerns, responsibilities and projects to pursue. I
think it a little silly to try to push others into a given idea or
project unless they want to go, particularly by message. I respectfully
suggest that those interested in sch a project, put thier heads
together, develop a plan suitable to yourselves, based on your ideas,
abilities and time available and set it out for other here to review.

I too have some small experience is the study of Anciet History as have
many of my Nova Roma friends, but I have found that for the most part
extensive study in an area that is of interest to an individual, has a
tendency, in most scholars, to do two things:

--The first is to create within the individual, the rrealization of just
how much that is NOT known ablout the subject, and a strong desire to
read or study, in a variety of ways, everything that is known about the
subject; Primary sources are particlarly valuable , but recent
archealogical studies have proven to be much more reliable that a period
writer who had some sort of axe to grind in the ancient world.

--The second is the development of a modesty about one's knowledge and
abilities in the said topic.

Of course, not everyone is able to see these two attributes, let alone
recognize them, but I find them very valuable in working with others, as
they go a long way toward making the advanceent of an idea or enterprise
smoother and more enjoyable for all concerned.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audesn

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Quo Vadis?
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:52:47 -0800 (PST)

Gaius Basilicatus--I have found you somewhat abrasive
at times, but this was well said. It's a hard truth,
and people should give it a hard look and consider
what it is that we really want Nova Roma to be.

Do we really want to be a landed micronation, or are
we content to pretend?

If we really want to be a micronation, Agricola is
right; it will take money and dedication from all.

If we're content to let the micronation be a nice
fantasy, but not really attainable, then we continue
the way we're going, with a large percentage of the
citizenry not paying taxes and being outraged at the
very idea that they should even be asked to
contribute.

If every single citizen paid their taxes, we would
have a treasury of approximately US$12,720.00. I
arrived at that figure by counting in 1600 citizens at
$12/each.

I am aware that citizens from countries with a lower
per capita income than the US are taxed at a lower
rate. At the moment, we have more than 1600 citizens,
if I recall correctly.

Of that $12,720.00, at least $6,360.00 would go bact
to the provincial governments. I don't know how our
charitable donations are allocated, but there should
be enough left in the remaining $6,000.00 or so to
invest in a decent stock portfolio to enable our Land
Fund to grow at a useful rate.

I didn't join Nova Roma for a fantasy. If I had
wanted a fantasy, I would have renewed my membership
in the Society for Creative Anachronism.

Tax season is almost upon us. Who's with me?

---
Renata Corva

Agricola said:
Your description of the tax situation is hilarious. If
that is truly the state of things here, then there is
no hope. You can't do squat without money. If you
can't raise money, then one certainly can't handle it,
even if someone throws it in your lap. I've belonged
to cheapskate organizations before, and have left in
disgust. If we can't agree that we need money, and
lots of it, to implement even the most basic goals,
then we're doomed.

My law practice has taken off. I'm doing well now but
I'll never forget the slim times. It was tough in the
begining. Many a day when the phone didn't ring and I
didn't know what would happen to me. I tried to office
out of my house;clients want to come to an office, so
I finagled an office. I had a crappy computer at the
office, and it wasted more time than it saved me, so I
got a new computer. The same with fax, credit card
machine, etc. I devised new marketing schemes, joined
organizations to increase my contacts, and kissed a
lot of hind ends. And many a sleepless nights
wondering if I had advised a client correctly, if we
would win or lose, should we have gone to trial? I
aged twenty years in five. Prosecuting was a party
compared to private practice.

I'm not bragging. I'm not outrageously wealthy. But I
have a fervent belief that hard work without money,
guts, and risk taking is just a bunch of hard work,
usually to someone else's benefit. If some members
here don't want to give money to their elected
government, take some risks, and do some hard work,
then they have no faith in Nova Roma or themselves. I
do. If I rub some some people in here the wrong way, I
could care less. We need a plan, and we need money.
Otherwise, whats the point?

=====
Chantal
http://www.theranweyr.org

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gens Minucia
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:43:44 -0500 (EST)

H. Minucia Caesar;

What a very very nice message regarding the subject Gens. I am very
pleased that you have found such pleasure in our Roman family. It is in
fact as you know a small Gens, and generally speaking the members have
indicated that they are individuals in thier ideas and interests, and
have also indicated a polite demeanor to all on the whole, which is also
pleasing to me, but more importantly, in my view, to the adopted
anchestor who we all recognize as a worthy and dedicated gentleman, who
served his nation, and gained a vocation in doing so. We know that he
must have had friends and/or family who saw to his funeral altar, and
that his service to his legion was honorable.

If such can be said of me when my task here is finished. I shall be
quietly content.

I am pleased to hear your very kind words, and I wish you all the best
in your endeavors.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Paterfamilius -- Gens Minucia

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Idea for new legislature regarding run-off
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:36:06 +0100

Salve Illustra Tribuna!

I have had the same thoughts about the Comitia Centuriata. I expect
to present a proposal for that Comitia in the end of this month.

>Salvete citizens,
>
>Lately I have been thinking very hard on ways to speed up the election
>process of the Plebeian magistrates. I have a *very simple* idea for the
>run-off elections, which I am posting here for discussions sake. If there is
>positive feedback, I will write it up officially as a Plebiscite and the
>Comitia Plebis Tributa can vote on it during the next run-off election which
>will take place within the next 4 weeks.

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Idea for new legislature regarding run-off elections
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:10:54 +0100

Salve Senior Consul,

< I have had the same thoughts about the Comitia Centuriata. I expect
< to present a proposal for that Comitia in the end of this month.
Great! It's nice to know that I am on the right track :-) I'm looking
forward to reading your proposal especially since it will cover all
elections and not just the Plebeian magistrates.

And to those who doubt, there are lots of us filled with good ideas to
improve many different aspects of Nova Roma. While changes may not happen in
overnight, we are getting there little by little!

Vale!
Diana Moravia Aventina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] female magistrates in NR
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:11:06 +0100

Salve Q Fabius Maximus,

>I'm hoping to prove that women in power here in NR are as aggressive as
males.

And how will you prove that pray tell? I am wondering if you meant 'active'
(which is easily proven or not proven) rather than aggressive.

Women in positions of responsibility are always have to be on their guard in
a world which still belongs to the men: this includes Nova Roma. Aggressive
women are often disliked by both men and their fellow women: some men feel
threatened; some submissive type women are jealous that they personally
don't have any figurative male sex organs like the aggressive woman seems to
have.

I like the word 'assertive' better than aggressive.

When a woman is as assertive as a man, she is called a bitch.
If she is kind, she is a weak female.
If she is emotional, she is accused of having PMS.
If she is too friendly, she is 'easy'.
If she is not physically attractive and is assertive, it gets downright
nasty: she'll be accused of being of bitch because she doesn't have a sex
partner...

We can't win! Speaking for myself, I am constantly rethinking my emails so
as not to appear too 'anything' because I am concerned about the opinions
of 1600 citizens and I don't want to step on any of their 16000 toes. Ok
well just a few of them maybe :-)

Vale,
Diana Moravia

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 21:54:37 -0000

With respect to the oft repeated claim that we need a plan, I
commend to you all

http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/index.html

That is the homepage for our current Senior Consul, Caeso
Fabius Quintilianus. You can read his platform there, see
what his vision for the future is, look at his published
edicts, and send him questions.

There is a plan. People are working on it.

-- Marinus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Anyone researching Jungian personality types and ancient Rome?
From:	"Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>" <equitius_marinus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:08:59 -0000

What follows has to do with my scientific opinion of something, and
is not intended as any kind of disregard for anybody. The lady
whose post I'm commenting on has established herself as a very
fine addition to our micronation in the short time she's been here,
and I mean absolutely no disrespect for her in what follows.

Octavia Fabia Scriba writes:

> According to Jungian personality types as related to the MBTI
> (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), ancient Rome was ESTJ

I should point out here that while there are any number of
websites which offer to explain the Myers-Briggs types and the
underlying Jungian model, these "personality types" are not accepted
as particularly useful or valid categories by today's psychologists.

(I note here that I am not a psychologist, I'm a physicist and
astronomer, and so my information comes from what I've gleaned
via friends and colleagues.)

The particular problem with the MBTI is that the four axes of
identification have been shown to lack independence from each
other. But beyond that, the entire Jungian school of psychology
has had its underlying assumptions called into question.

Beyond that, I question any effort to import a "composite
personality index" to an entire culture. It smacks of the
same false assumptions which led to the 19th century beliefs
in cultural evolution, giving us the "white man's burden" and
any number of other falacies.

-- Marinus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] female magistrates in NR
From:	"Saxus Pitrinius Atheniensis" <pitrinius@mitdasein.com>
Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:22:21 +0100

> I'm hoping to prove that women in power here in NR are as
> aggressive as males.

Your position would perpetuate the fallacy of shine, as though men were
aggressive for aggressiveness' sake. Men are aggressive, of course, not
in the immediate lust for ascendancy, but in the pursuit of effective
leadership.

There is no "look at me" among men; no "me, too".

- Pitrinius

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/