Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis?
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:18:36 -0800 (PST)

--- Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com wrote:
> > From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Sextus
> Apollonius Scipio. Salve.
> >
> > While both of us serve the goals and ideas of the
> Illustrus Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
> > I must ask "what does the French income tax have
> to do with membership in a voluntary
> > organization like Nova Roma?"
>
> Simply put, while macronations are exonerating their
> citizens from income tax, and
> because NR is supposed to be a nation as well, why
> should we go against the stream?
>
Certain political parties in Macronations are
exonerating SOME of thier citizens from Income taxes
to foster class based voting that will place the
entire tax burden on other citizens who will pay for
benifts recived by the non tax payers. I See no reason
to introduce 21st century style class warfare into
Nova Roma.

Our tax is a head tax, not an income tax. Each citizen
from a given Macronation pays an equal tax regardless
of his income. I Have no objection to a Roman style
tax where the first class has a higher tax to go with
thier increased voting powers.

Representation without taxiation is as bad a tyrany as
taxiation without representation.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] NR LAND
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 02:48:25 -0500

Salve Romans

Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an administrative center but for a NR city.

тАЬNeque enim est ulla res,
in qua propius ad deorum numen
virtus accedat humana,
quam civitates aut condere novas
aut conservare iam conditas.тАЭ

(тАЬFor there is really no other occupation
in which human virtue approaches
more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding new cities
or preserving those already in existence.тАЭ)

Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] CHARIOT RACE NOW!!!! Join Factio Praesina!!!!!
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:32:57 -0000

AVETE OMNES

That's your occasion!!!! JOIN FACTIO PRAESINA, the GREEN team, and
take part to next LUDI PRAESINA, the first CHARIOT RACE of the year
for members of the GREEN factio only!!!
To become a GREEN just subscribe our mailing list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factiopraesina

Once you have done this, send a message to mcserapio @ yahoo.it to
join the chariot race!!! Remember to write "Ludi Praesina" in the
subject field.

You must write:

--Your Novaroman name
--Name of the Chariot
--Name of the Driver
--Your tactics for the race (choose among)
1 To hurry in the last laps
2 To pass the curves closely the "spina" of the circus.
3 To support a constant pace
4 To lash the rivals
5 To push the rivals to the wall of the circus
6 To hurry in the straight lines

BE HURRY!!! Inscription are open until FEBRUARY 18TH!!!!

The public waits for your chariots on the sand! You will receive a
nice prize and the recognition of the members of your Factio and the
whole citizenship! Who will be the GREEN Champion??????

LET'S SEE IN THE GREEN CIRCUS!!!!!!!!!

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Dominvs Factionis Praesinae

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR LAND
From:	Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:37:35 -0800 (PST)

perhaps we should establish a land tax of 5 dollars a year
Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:Salve Romans

Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an administrative center but for a NR city.

тАЬNeque enim est ulla res,
in qua propius ad deorum numen
virtus accedat humana,
quam civitates aut condere novas
aut conservare iam conditas.тАЭ

(тАЬFor there is really no other occupation
in which human virtue approaches
more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding new cities
or preserving those already in existence.тАЭ)

Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	"Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>" <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:38:45 -0000

> With the exception of the Basque, Ugrian, and Finnish languages,
> all other languages are descendants of Old Indo-European (aka
> Sanskrit).

I'm afraid I'll have to jump in here - I'm spending a *lot* of my
time studying Indo-European phonology at the moment! In some
respects (especially vowel sounds) Latin and Greek are nearer to the
original IE than Sanskrit. It's a very easy mistake to make, because
a fair number of IE consonants survived in Sanskrit where they did
not in some other languages. But essentially, Sanskrit evolved from
IE in the same way as Latin, Greek, Gothic, and all the other Indo-
European languages. Sorry if it sounds like I'm being picky - I just
thought it might be a point of interest.

Livia

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] hello america austroccidentalis?
From:	"civvsromanvs <ben.fuertsch@vminternational.com>" <ben.fuertsch@vminternational.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:45:34 -0000

Salvete,
I would really appreciate some response from my province. In the
time since I have become a citizen I already recruted a close friend
of mine to become a Roman citizen himself and my fiancщe plans to do
the same within the next little while. I am quickly learning Latin,
and becoming more and more interested in Roman life and Religion.
All this is quite amusing in and of itself, however I didn't become a
Roman citizen to send emails to people. Should things work out I
would love to start a Nova Roma community in the Salt Lake City area
(possibly even here on campus at my university). But in order to do
so it is necessary that all the citizen in the area communicate. I
recognize the utility of this medium and think that if we would all
participate we could build an interactive real-life face-to-face
Roman community that would truly enrich the lives of all involved
both within the context of Nova Roma and without.

Valete Bene,
With best regards,
Laecus Galerius Felix

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Hello America Austroccidentalis??
From:	"civvsromanvs <ben.fuertsch@vminternational.com>" <ben.fuertsch@vminternational.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:51:31 -0000


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Straight Dope 02/14/2003 (fwd)
From:	Matt Haase <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:01:25 -0600 (CST)

The Straight Dope -- By Cecil Adams
http://www.straightdope.com

[...]

Dear Straight Dope:

I've have noticed that every time someone asks a
question regarding the origin of a particular word,
Cecil always mentions the original Latin word root.
Well, where did the original Latin words come from?
Was there actually a Latinese guy sitting around
thousands of years ago making up crazy words for things
so that today we'd have an origin for the word "boogie"?
Are Latin words still being created to describe modern
things that weren't around during the original Latin
period? --E Pluribus Ed

SDSTAFF bibliophage replies:

Some ancient Latinese guy just making stuff up? No way.
There's always a rational story behind every Latin word.
For example, "boogie," as you have already guessed, is
from Latin. The origin can be found in Bogudis, a shortened
form of saltatio Bogudis ("dance of Bogud"), Bogud being
an African king who allied himself with Julius Caesar and
incidentally introduced Rome to the new musical form known
as "iazz."

Okay, so maybe I made that one up.

For more, see:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlatinroot.html

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Welcome!
From:	"aerdensrw <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:07:18 -0000

Greetings, Laecus Galerius Felix--I am a member of your provincia,
but I live in Houston, Texas. Have you joined your provincia mailing
list, yet? That will be the best place to find other Nova Romans in
your area. It's at:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/america_austroccidentalis

I wish you the best of success in starting a community of Nova Romans
in Salt Lake City. That is a great idea! :)

---
Renata Corva

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: NR LAND
From:	"Caius Cornelius Varus <eq_germanicus@yahoo.com>" <eq_germanicus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:05:50 -0000

Salvete Civibus,
The only thing that comes to mind about the whole land thing is:
Why would people put money towards land when in reality only a very
small percentage would ever actually even see it?

Where would you get this land? Somewhere in the NE United States?
Belgium? California? (just examples) So what about the folks living
elsewhere? I think it would be great for those who are independantly
wealthy and able to do the globetrotting thing. I think the vast
majority here (members) are barely even active on the email lists,
much less willing to crank out funds for something they will never
utilize. (Maybe an administrative center? An office or something)

I've been a part of other worldwide non-profit voluntary organizations
(specifically the SCA) for 15 years and the land issue comes up there
too, yet is nearly always shot down.

I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm not sure what the actual
breakdown of participating Nova Romans are as far as a percentage or
anything. It just seems to my eyes that there is a smaller percentage
that votes, meets and communicates online than the actual number of
citizens signed up to be a part of NR. Of that percentage how many
would be willing to put out money towards something they won't ever use?

I think before we think about land we need to move towards more
face-to-face events. People need to be used to traveling to these
things before a permanent site is developed. The Maine event is a
wonderful start, but it needs to be mimicked in other places too and
grow considerably before dropping cash on a permanent site.

Anyhow, this is all IMHO, so take it for what it's worth.

Respectfully,
Caius Cornelius Varus
America Boreoccidentalis

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Dreesbach <stakor2000@y...>
wrote:
>
> perhaps we should establish a land tax of 5 dollars a year
> Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@m...> wrote:Salve Romans
>
> Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an
administrative center but for a NR city.
>
> тАЬNeque enim est ulla res,
> in qua propius ad deorum numen
> virtus accedat humana,
> quam civitates aut condere novas
> aut conservare iam conditas.тАЭ
>
> (тАЬFor there is really no other occupation
> in which human virtue approaches
> more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding
new cities
> or preserving those already in existence.тАЭ)
>
>
> Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.
>
>
> Vale
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinusemoved]


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Return to Personal E-Mails
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	14 Feb 2003 12:31:51 -0200

Em Qua, 2003-02-12 ├аs 19:41, me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : тАЬL. Sicinius DrususтАЬ <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
>
> It is possible to set up a dual boot computer that can
> >boot up either Linux or Windows. Both Red Hat and
> >Mandrake Linux have installers that detect a Windows
> >installation, and offer to set you coumputer up for
> >Dual boot. With a dual boot computer when you turn it
> >
> A warning though. If you set all-Linux first, you can't go back. Windows is unforgiving (or stupid) so won't rewrite the boot tracks to suit itself. Likewise, a dual system really means a W*s subpartition inside Unix/Linux.
>

Not quite, you will just have to boot to linux through your boot floppy
and rerun lilo (or grub or whatever you want to use)

Manius Villius Limitanus
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	14 Feb 2003 13:05:53 -0200

Em Qui, 2003-02-13 рs 21:38, L. Cornelius Sulla escreveu:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Does anyone have sources to back up any claim? I find both arguements interesting and would like to know where this information is coming from...so I can further read more about it.
>

For the fact the the myceneans where IE, any book on the Mycenena
language will do: It is greek written in another form.
Back to original source:
CHADWICK, J. DECIPHERMENT OF LINEAR B 1
or
Ventris, Michael, and Chadwick, John. Documents in Mycenaean Greek, 2nd
edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1973.

There is absolutely no doubt left on this specific point: 14th century
myceneans spoke greek and worshipped gods from the grek pantheons i.e.
they were indo-europeans

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:34 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > When the Indo-Europeans swept out of the area of modern Scandinavia
> > about 10,000 years ago,
>
> A small correction, with your leave.
>
> According to modern theories, the Indo-Europeans did not originate in
> Scandinavia. The group of linguistically related peoples known today
> as "Indo-Europeans" lived in what we call Southern Russia.
>
> And Indo-European migrations did not begin 10,000 years ago. 4,000
> years is probably closer to the truth.
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > they then moved westward through Mesopotamia and came in contact
> > with Egypt (ca. Rameses II) and Mycenaea (ca. post-Trojan War)
>
> Many proofs suggest that the Homer's Achaeans where also Indo-
> European; that means that IE peoples entered Greece *before* the
> Trojan War, given that the warriors that besieged Troy spoke an IE
> langauge.
>
> CN╖SALIX╖ASTVR
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Return to Personal E-Mails
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	14 Feb 2003 13:14:05 -0200

Em Qui, 2003-02-13 ├аs 19:24, me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
> >
> >The universal package converter (same in all distros, as far as I know)
> >is called тАЬalien.тАЬ Just do
> >
> >alien --to-rpm <package>
> >
> >as root, and Magic Will Happen. :)
> >
> Gratias tibi multe ago. There had to be something of the sort; it's not W*s trying to exclude everything else as much as possible. Now what can I do with Algol68? (Not much - but I see some companies still use Fortran77 and even Basic's an improvement of Fortran of any description. Come to think of it, Basic is a variant on Fortran).
> >

Being a Fortran programmer I have to strongly disagree with you.
Fortran (even 66 or IV) is still the best language around for efficiency
in numerical calculations. Even new programs in quantum chemistry are
written in some form of Fortran (mostly 90) because they end up much
faster as in C.
Fortran is an awfull language which does not respect the rules for
elegant programming but is efficient. Basic is neither and VisualBasic
is even worse.

Second as a Debian user, I find your analogy very bad, since .deb is a
strong improvement over .rpm or .tgz

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

> >Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare.
> >Anybody can err, but only the fool persists in his fault.
> > -- Cicero, тАЬPhilippicae orationesтАЬ. Often quoted тАЬerrare humanum est,
> > ignoscere divinumтАЬ - to err is human, to forgive divine.
> >
> Et ut chaos totaliter fiat, computeri necest.
>
>
> --
> Personalised email by http://another.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:28:50 -0800

Ave,

Thank you for that Manius Villius, but that does not answer the question that was being discussed about the origin of Indo-Europeans.

I hope to get some info in regards to that subject.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Loos
To: NovaRoma
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response

Em Qui, 2003-02-13 рs 21:38, L. Cornelius Sulla escreveu:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> Does anyone have sources to back up any claim? I find both arguements interesting and would like to know where this information is coming from...so I can further read more about it.
>

For the fact the the myceneans where IE, any book on the Mycenena
language will do: It is greek written in another form.
Back to original source:
CHADWICK, J. DECIPHERMENT OF LINEAR B 1
or
Ventris, Michael, and Chadwick, John. Documents in Mycenaean Greek, 2nd
edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1973.

There is absolutely no doubt left on this specific point: 14th century
myceneans spoke greek and worshipped gods from the grek pantheons i.e.
they were indo-europeans

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:34 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
>
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > When the Indo-Europeans swept out of the area of modern Scandinavia
> > about 10,000 years ago,
>
> A small correction, with your leave.
>
> According to modern theories, the Indo-Europeans did not originate in
> Scandinavia. The group of linguistically related peoples known today
> as "Indo-Europeans" lived in what we call Southern Russia.
>
> And Indo-European migrations did not begin 10,000 years ago. 4,000
> years is probably closer to the truth.
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > they then moved westward through Mesopotamia and came in contact
> > with Egypt (ca. Rameses II) and Mycenaea (ca. post-Trojan War)
>
> Many proofs suggest that the Homer's Achaeans where also Indo-
> European; that means that IE peoples entered Greece *before* the
> Trojan War, given that the warriors that besieged Troy spoke an IE
> langauge.
>
> CN╖SALIX╖ASTVR
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] NR LAND
From:	"jlasalle" <jlasalle@sbcglobal.net>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:58:54 -0600

agreed
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher [mailto:spqr753@msn.com]
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 1:48 AM
To: Nova-Roma
Subject: [Nova-Roma] NR LAND

Salve Romans

Here is one more reason why we need land. An not just for an administrative center but for a NR city.

тАЬNeque enim est ulla res,
in qua propius ad deorum numen
virtus accedat humana,
quam civitates aut condere novas
aut conservare iam conditas.тАЭ

(тАЬFor there is really no other occupation
in which human virtue approaches
more closely the august function of the gods than that of founding new cities
or preserving those already in existence.тАЭ)

Cicero, De Re Publica, Book I, VII, paragr. 12.

Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:14:04 -0500

I beg to differ with you in that many scholars feel that the original migration began in what is now modern Scandinavia due to a climatic change. There was a long period of inhabitation of the steppes in Southern Russia before the migration continued eastward with some IEs staying in Russia as the proto-Scythians. In regards to IE peoples being present for the Trojan War, it is possible that some of the IE peoples of southern Russia may have been involved in the conflict as auxiliaries of the Trojan (Hissalikian) kingdom, Mycenaea was overrun by the IE 'Dorians' after Troy IV had already been burned out. The language of the Argives who attacked Troy was a dialect of Linear B (Ancient Cretan), which was a pre-IE language.

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:39:42 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to L. Cornelius Sulla Felix. Salve.

There are three texts that are readily available at most libraries that I find to be excellent sources. IN SEARCH OF THE INDO-EUROPEANS by J. P. Mallory; ARCHAEOLOGY & LANGUAGE: THE PUZZLE OF INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGINS by Colin Renfrew; AN INTRODUCTION TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES by P. Baldi. There are a host of works on the Scythians, Sarmatians, the Indo-European mummies in the Tarim Basin, and most general archaeological texts discuss the Harappan culture of the Indus River Valley. The origin of the study of IE languages originated in the late 18th century when the French and English dominated large portions of India. It was discovered that Sanskrit was the precursor of all European languages including Classical Greek and Latin. I believe the first book on Comparative Language was published by a Frenchman in Paris in 1816.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:42:00 -0800

Ave,

Thank you very much for your sources. I will definitely explore each work that you have cited in your response.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response

From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to L. Cornelius Sulla Felix. Salve.

There are three texts that are readily available at most libraries that I find to be excellent sources. IN SEARCH OF THE INDO-EUROPEANS by J. P. Mallory; ARCHAEOLOGY & LANGUAGE: THE PUZZLE OF INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGINS by Colin Renfrew; AN INTRODUCTION TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES by P. Baldi. There are a host of works on the Scythians, Sarmatians, the Indo-European mummies in the Tarim Basin, and most general archaeological texts discuss the Harappan culture of the Indus River Valley. The origin of the study of IE languages originated in the late 18th century when the French and English dominated large portions of India. It was discovered that Sanskrit was the precursor of all European languages including Classical Greek and Latin. I believe the first book on Comparative Language was published by a Frenchman in Paris in 1816.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:02:05 -0500

Livia,

You are not being picky. The proto-IE language predates Sanskrit but when the IEs invaded the Indus Valley and established themselves there, the survivors of the Harappan culture began the process of writing down their conquerors' language. Sanskrit is the first, and most likely, purest form of IE extant being approximately 4-5,000 years old. The form of Old Greek we are familiar with was not written down until 2,800 years ago. We know that the Greeks and Thracians were able to speak the language of the Scythians and Sarmatians (according to Herodotus). However, the Greeks believed that Scythian was a debased form of their language while in reality, Greek was a debased form of the IE language of the Scythians. This debasement was the result of the inclusion of elements of Linear A & B languages into the IE language of the so-called Dorians. Culture also plays a part in the alteration of language. The Scythians, Sarmatians, and the IE peoples who invaded the Indus Valley were pastoralists while the cultures of the Indus Valley and the Greek Penisula were agriculturalists. Certain words like "plow", "vineyard", "orchard", "scythe", and many other agricultural words were more likely to have been introduced to IE languages from the civilizations that the IEs conquered. Take the word "soma"; this word might be translated as "wine" or "ale" but is most likely to have actually been a form of "mead" since the IEs did not raise grapes or barley but would have been able to use wild bees for honey to produce mead or soma. This theory is expounded on at length in the book WASSAIL TO MAZERS OF MEAD by Papazian and Grayle. Anyway, good luck with your language studies.

Flavi Galeri

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Hello America Austroccidentalis??
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:13:03 -0800 (PST)

America Austrorientalis is a very large province, over
450,000 square miles. Excessive travel times make it
hard to set up to set up regular face to face meetings
at the provincial level. There is some discussion
about setting up local groups that will hold face to
face meetings on a regular basis.

L. Sicinius Drusus
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

--- "civvsromanvs <ben.fuertsch@vminternational.com>"
<ben.fuertsch@vminternational.com> wrote:
> Salvete,
> I would really appreciate some response from my
> province. In the
> time since I have become a citizen I already
> recruted a close friend
> of mine to become a Roman citizen himself and my
> fiancщe plans to do
> the same within the next little while. I am quickly
> learning Latin,
> and becoming more and more interested in Roman life
> and Religion.
> All this is quite amusing in and of itself, however
> I didn't become a
> Roman citizen to send emails to people. Should
> things work out I
> would love to start a Nova Roma community in the
> Salt Lake City area
> (possibly even here on campus at my university).
> But in order to do
> so it is necessary that all the citizen in the area
> communicate. I
> recognize the utility of this medium and think that
> if we would all
> participate we could build an interactive real-life
> face-to-face
> Roman community that would truly enrich the lives of
> all involved
> both within the context of Nova Roma and without.
>
> Valete Bene,
> With best regards,
> Laecus Galerius Felix
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:17:13 -0500

Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Manius Villius Limitanus. Salve.

I beg to differ with you on both points that the inhabitants of the area of Classical Greece in the 14th century B.C. worshipped gods from the classical Greek pantheon and spoke IE Classical Greek. The culture of 14th-13th century B.C. Greece was Mycenaean and, to a lesser extent, Cretan. These cultures existed prior to the IE invasions of the Dorians. The language in question were Linear A and Linear B which were both pre-IE languages. In theory, there may have been some IE influence on the Mycenaean language prior to the fall of that culture. Also, Homer did not record the events of the Iliad until the 8th century B.C. which would have been 500 years after the end of Myceanaean civilization. His language was definitely IE Ancient Greek and his gods were definitely those of the pantheon we are familar with as the Ancient Greek Gods and Goddesses. The pantheon of the period of 1300-1200 B.C. is not so set in stone. After all, Dis Pater came to Greece via Asia Minor, Hecate was the original Earth Mother of the Thracians, and Tyr was likely the original IE sky father. Gods change with time, travel, and the nature of their worshippers. To quote Kansas, "nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky."

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: NR LAND
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:29:33 -0500

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to C. Cornelius Varus. Salve.

I have been a member of the SCA since 1976 (although only semi-active since 1998) and agree that there is something to what you say. In all honesty, I visualize a central NR site as somewhere in the northern Kentucky, southern Ohio, or eastern Illinois area looking much like a Roman-version of a RennFaire. The only permanent structures would be the Forum area with a Basilica, Temple to the Capitoline Triad, a small replica of the Pantheon, a single row of Pompeian merchant stalls, a wood-and-earth amphitheatre for gladitorial fights, and (maybe) a small Roman fortlet for legio demos. All other areas would be space for tents and a Italic style home for the caretaker.
A Roman Festival could be held there during the period between May-October for the public with NR events being held at any time during the year. The members from the USA & Canada could easily attend once a year like SCAers go to Pennsics or Gulf Wars. Ownership would have to be in the hands of the NR corportation but we would likely need business corporate sponsorship for the festival.
The rest of the NR world would have to make their own arrangements for a permanent spot to hold their functions. Those provincials in areas with Roman sites or reconstructions could make arrangements to aid with preservation and demonstrations. Other areas would likely have to depend on the kindness of a single owner to hold events on his property and the group would supply the insurance and some upkeep money.
Almost all NR Land progjects will begin at the local level to find a piece of property that is likely owned by a member and then developing it as a group project.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] 1773 citizens
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:37:16 -0500

Salve, Quirites

Since we have 1773 citizens, isn't it time to update the main page?

Also, I've seen the discussion about "a plan" and taxes.
Well, my first suggestion for 'a plan' is to require a signature on the citizenship application. Quite frankly this would have greatly reduced the need for a 'census'. I want to point out that of those citizens who applied during the first months of our existence and sent in a signed application, most are still here and are active citizens. Just that small amount of extra effort was enough to separate the wheat from the chafe in most cases. Of course we have gained many worthy, talented, devoted, intelligent, etc.<:-) citizens since we adopted the online form. However, I believe that those same people who have shown initiative in their service to Nova Roma would not have let the requirement of a self addressed stamp envelope and a signed application prevent them from doing what they have done without the requirement of a signed form.

Too, I fully support a tax, but I'm against anything like a tiered tax that effects century placement. We already have a system that determines century placement based on service to the state, longevity, and other factors such as 'The Orders' along with the payment of tax as part of the equation. I think the tax is a duty. I believe in rewarding those who do more than just exist, and even sending in their $12. (or whatever the calculation works out for the different economies).

Additionally, I believe that a percentage of the tax should be set aside for a land fund. That the acquisitions of land for a 'Forum' is a goal of Nova Roma and has been since before it's inception, is plan for all to see. I would suggest that arguments on where it should be are premature, and will in all likelihood evolve as Nova Roma grows. I'll even add that it should be possible for us to have more than one place on which to build shrines, temples and a Basilica. These don't have to be grand marble edifices, at first :-) , but rather, like Roma herself, begun as simple wooden structures. First, will, effort and action, then results.

Anyway, let's begin from the beginning and have signed forms from either all citizens or at least from Pater/Materfamilias vouching for their Gens. For the larger gens such as mine each adult should submit a signed form.

Well, everyone have nice weekend and for my local Mediatlantica neighbors get ready for the snowstorm!

Valete, Lucius Equitius
Senator, etc.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: NR LAND
From:	"Caius Cornelius Varus <eq_germanicus@yahoo.com>" <eq_germanicus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:44:14 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:>
"Almost all NR Land progjects will begin at the local level to find a
piece of property that is likely owned by a member and then
developing it as a group project."

Salve amice,

Now that may be possible.

My main thought being that the greater SCA events: Pennsic, Gulf
Wars, Great Western War, Estrella War are all held at rented or
private owned land, but not SCA owned land. We're talking about huge
events with up to literally several thousands of attendees, yet the
site is not owned. The SCA has been running for what, 37 years now?

I think the idea is possible for NR to have a permanent site, I just
think it is WAYYY down the road. I think we need to look at how we
use the current taxes more closely before we even think about
allotting for land.

We need to sponsor more events and get people travelling to them long
before an actual site is developed. How many bodies do we get a NR
functions now? Say the big Roman gig in Maine? We need to have those
sized events in every provincia before we can realistically make the
next step to a permanent site. I know the SCA after 37 years and tens
of thousands of international members are not at that point yet for
the biggest events they have.

I think the SCA has already set up a pattern to improve upon for
reenactment/ recreation/ non-profit groups. I think we can take many
lessons learned from what they have already done. Specfically in how
to effectively utilize memberships etc.

My two cents only...

Vale bene,

Caius Cornelius Varus
America Boreoccidentalis

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 1773 citizens
From:	"Caius Cornelius Varus <eq_germanicus@yahoo.com>" <eq_germanicus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:02:05 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil@s...>
wrote:> "Just that small amount of extra effort was enough to
separate the wheat from the chafe in most cases. Of course we have
gained many worthy, talented, devoted, intelligent, etc.<:-) citizens
since we adopted the online form. However, I believe that those same
people who have shown initiative in their service to Nova Roma would
not have let the requirement of a self addressed stamp envelope and a
signed application prevent them from doing what they have done
without the requirement of a signed form. <snip>

> Additionally, I believe that a percentage of the tax should be set
aside for a land fund. That the acquisitions of land for a 'Forum' is
a goal of Nova Roma and has been since before it's inception, is plan
for all to see. I would suggest that arguments on where it should be
are premature, and will in all likelihood evolve as Nova Roma grows>

I think a signed form is a great idea. The online thing is okay, but
how many of the 1773 citizens are participitory at all? How many have
signed up and gone on to greener pastures?

I think that setting aside funds for land NOW is too early since
there aren't enough (IMO only) actual events to attend yet throughout
the republic. I think we should use the funds to host and sponsor
events first. NR will grow from the exposure, THEN we would be in a
better position to set aside fundage for land. I think eventually it
is a wonderful idea; but premature now.

Events also mean signed waivers and insurance as well as a way of
defining memberships, ie: membership cards of some sort (easily
printed on a dot matrix printer. But i'm getting way ahead of
myself...

Vale,
Caius Cornelius Varus
America Boreoccidentalis

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:22:17 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : УGaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>У
>
>I'm afraid I'll have to jump in here - I'm spending a *lot* of my
>time studying Indo-European phonology at the moment! In some
>respects (especially vowel sounds) Latin and Greek are nearer to the
>original IE than Sanskrit. It's a very easy mistake to make, because
>
Not so sure about Latin because it seems to have reinvented the verbs based on additions of Ire, and did again with Habere. I'll take that apart from keeping most of the case endings, Sanskrit has lost short vowels and introduced a whole range of foreign consonants. That and Latin and German suggest learnt languages where Greek and Celtic suggest more wholesale migration. Then there's the Centum-Satem shift on top and this preference for impersonals and passives. That must have applied to the East in general because Slavic pasts are of agreeing form though I can't imagine where they got an L from. Something I find fascinating is just how and why all the syntactic complexities of Greek and Latin indirect speech developed where they did not in India. Or maybe that's just a feature of what tended to be written.
I do suspect Sanskrit was learnt by a population more familiar with something of Chinese kind of structure but I know absolutely nothing about the native Indian language families to make a guess. Something could be learnt from which sounds developed purely Indian pronunciations like the retroflexes and unvoiced aspirates. But then English is unusual in have a partly retroflex aspirate pronunuciation too and I can't guess where that comes from except that Welsh and Irish are dental but heavily aspirated more heavily.

Caesariensis

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:39:13 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
>
>There is absolutely no doubt left on this specific point: 14th century
>myceneans spoke greek and worshipped gods from the grek pantheons i.e.
>they were indo-europeans
>
the really interesting question concerns the divisors of Linear B. Linear A appears to be logographic but B was obviously intended for a language where simple open syllables were the norm. But what? Not semitic or Egyptian since they also allow for plain consonants. Not I-E because it lacks far too many I-E sounds but perhaps had others all equally substitutable. The other unknowns in the area are Cypriot and [something like] Cyrene, Cairene? All related?

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:47:25 -0500

Linear A was the primary language associated with the Minoan culture on Crete from 1900-1400 BC while Linear B was the primary language associated with Mycenaean culture from 1500-1200 BC. Linear B supplanted Linear A following the eruption of Thera, the subsequent decline in Minoan military & commerical strength, and the invasion of Crete by the mainland Mycenaeans in approximately 1400 BC.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Return to Personal E-Mails
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:50:00 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
>
>Fortran is an awfull language which does not respect the rules for
>elegant programming but is efficient. Basic is neither and VisualBasic
>is even worse.
>
for what it's worth, I dislike inconsistancies but Fortran falls into the quick&dirty for non-programmers category so it's ideal for scientists with other things on their mind. The Basics extended to file handling are similar from the business point of view where nobody really wants to churn through the levels of Cobol definition and then all the special categories. I do agree though that C was one whole ghastly step backwards with absolutely nothing to recommend it except Unix and not being Basic. C++ is a marginal improvement but I'm not convinced by Objects or any other single solution for all cases. I found SmallTalk one of the most difficult things I've ever used because it is 100% OOPS.
I grew up with Algol60 and 68 has features only just creeping into C# 35 years later. The real case depends on who backs and IBM backed Fortran, Honeywell Cobol, DEC and HP of course invented their own :)

>Second as a Debian user, I find your analogy very bad, since .deb is a
>strong improvement over .rpm or .tgz
>
Don't know anything about the distributions. I had 3 CDs of Red Hat or 6 of SuSe and SuSe doesn't warn about missing references. Their chameleon logo is pretty though.

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:55:25 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com

>I beg to differ with you in that many scholars feel that the original migration began in what is now modern Scandinavia due to a climatic

Interesting but why was anybody living in Scandinavia? It's hostile enough now; 4,000+ years ago is that much closer to the last glaciation even if it was warmer one thousand years ago. (Global warming nuts: we're just getting back to as it was). Nobody usually goes to places like that unless driven out of somewhere better unless they were specialised hunters following the glaciers North over generations.

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	14 Feb 2003 18:42:14 -0200

Em Sex, 2003-02-14 рs 14:14, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com escreveu:
> I beg to differ with you in that many scholars feel that the original migration began in what is now modern Scandinavia due to a climatic change. There was a long period of inhabitation of the steppes in Southern Russia before the migration continued eastward with some IEs staying in Russia as the proto-Scythians. In regards to IE peoples being present for the Trojan War, it is possible that some of the IE peoples of southern Russia may have been involved in the conflict as auxiliaries of the Trojan (Hissalikian) kingdom, Mycenaea was overrun by the IE 'Dorians' after Troy IV had already been burned out. The language of the Argives who attacked Troy was a dialect of Linear B (Ancient Cretan), which was a pre-IE language.
>

Linear B is a way of writing down GREEK, an IE language, refer yourself
to the sources I sent in a former mail.

To convince yourself take just about any tablet and "read"/decipher it
and you will see that you can nearly understand it, just because
it is an archaic form of greek.

For the original point of the supposed "migrations", I am not interested
in that sort of speculations.
Just remembering there is also a "diffusion" theory based on the extend
of new land needed per generation.
There just is and can be no clear proof of either theory, just about as
moot as discussing if their is or not (a) God(s): indecidible by reason
alone: you need faith.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:48:36 -0500

Actually, one must consider that the number of reasons why mankind spread out from the Olduvai Gorge (or Eden) are as numerous as the people involved. Why did early man move out of Africa with the plentiful game to arid regions like the Sahara or Arabian Penisula? Why did the neolithic hunters move so far north or east? Was it just to follow the herds or were there other reasons? The modern areas of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finnland have very little to recommend them in the way of growing seasons or abundance of space but there seem to have been a whole lot of people there during the period of the Roman Empire, German Migrations, and Carolingian Empire? I'm waiting for the time machine to tell us what happened that caused the IEs to stop going east in the Indus Valley and had them move west. H. Beam Piper suggested that some shamanic chief got hold of a bad batch of soma and his hangover produced the change of direction.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:58:07 -0500

There is little direct correlation between Linear B which is a pre-IE language and Greek which is an IE language. In Greek, the word for king is basilikos but in Linear B it is wanax. You want to tell me how you get one from the other. Besides, Ancient Greek to Hellenistic Greek (New Testament) to Byzantine (Medieval) Greek to Modern Greek is a logical progression. If you can read Hellenistic Greek, you can make out modern Greek despite the influence of Gothic, Slavic, and English languages. However, even if you read Classical Greek you cannot make out Linear A (Minoan) or Linear B (Mycenaean).
Linear A & B can only be considered Greek if you mean the geographical area of Ancient Greek city-states of the Classical Period was the same as the Mycenaean culture. If Linear A/B were actually related to IE Greek, why were they undecipherable until Chadwick did Linear B in 1952?

F. Gal Aur Sec

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	14 Feb 2003 19:08:36 -0200

Em Sex, 2003-02-14 рs 15:17, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com escreveu:
> Flavius Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Manius Villius Limitanus. Salve.
>
> I beg to differ with you on both points that the inhabitants of the area of Classical
> Greece in the 14th century B.C. worshipped gods from the classical Greek pantheon
> and spoke IE Classical Greek. The culture of 14th-13th century B.C. Greece was
> Mycenaean and, to a lesser extent, Cretan.

Yes and the Mycenean culture was a greek one, Crete we don't know since
Linear A is not deciphered.

> These cultures existed prior to the
> IE invasions of the Dorians.

Yes, again : there were indo-europeans in Greece (including crete after
1350BC) before the arrival of the dorian.

> The language in question were Linear A and Linear B
> which were both pre-IE languages.

Linear A and Linear B are not languages: they are writing forms.
Since Chadwick and Ventris deiciphered linear B (~1950) we know that
linear B represents Greek (archaic but still greek). We have thousands
of tablets that were read, we know a lot of things about their culture.

> In theory, there may have been some IE influence
> on the Mycenaean language prior to the fall of that culture.

No theory, no influence: facts. We can easily read what they wrote down
on the tablets.

> Also, Homer did not record the events of the Iliad until the 8th century B.C.
> which would have been 500 years after the end of Myceanaean civilization.
> His language was definitely IE Ancient Greek and his gods were definitely those of
> the pantheon we are familar with as the Ancient Greek Gods and Goddesses.
> The pantheon of the period of 1300-1200 B.C. is not so set in stone.

No it set down in tablets which count the various offrands for the
various gods; so much oil or sheeps for Athena, for Zeus, for the Mother
of All Gods, so much wine for Dyonisos etc.
It is very easy to read, hte catalogs of nearly all tablets are
published. You find many in Ventris+Chadwick book I cited.
Alphabets (well sillabaries) are available (see Chadwick)
take any tablet, transliterate to your alphabet and just read it: it is
GREEK.

They were indo-europeans, worshiped an indo-european pantheon, under
mostly the same names as later.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> After all, Dis Pater came to Greece via Asia Minor, Hecate was the original Earth
> Mother of the Thracians, and Tyr was likely the original IE sky father.
> Gods change with time, travel, and the nature of their worshippers.
> To quote Kansas, "nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky."
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] FACTIO ALBATA RECRUITS!
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:17:52 +0100

Salvete Romani!

Don't let this chance slip on by and make history.

Join the Factio Albata today. We are a small band of dedicated charioteers bringing you the best, the most cunning, the most elegant and the most brutal racing possible. Forget about mastodont factiones such as Russata or Praesina. Join Albata, support us and think of us in your prayers!

Our mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/factio_albata . Come and discuss tactics with us there!

Valete bene,
M. Octavius Solaris
Dominus Factionis Albatae

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: 1773 citizens
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:34:13 -0500

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil@s...> wrote:
> Salve, Quirites
>
> Since we have 1773 citizens, isn't it time to update the main page?

>From the main page: http://www.novaroma.org/main.html

Current population: MDCCLXXIII (1773)

Now that's what I call service! :-)

Great job T Octavius! and Thanks,
It's the little things that count ;-)

Valete, L Equitius

BTW I missed offering my congratulations to Julillia Sempronia et Gnaeus Equitius on their appointments as Propraetores.
I was very pleased that they chose to take up the positions and even more so to vote for them. I've met Gnaeus and found him to be the embodiment of Roman virtue. I am proud to have him as a gens mate.
Julillia, I've yet to meet in person, but from all contact, official and unofficial, she is a wonderful person who I very much look forward to meeting. She was always very helpful to me, as Censor, in my work last year. I'm happy to have had the opportunity to work with her.

Ave Gn Equitius!
Ave Julillia Sempronia!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	14 Feb 2003 19:43:29 -0200

Em Sex, 2003-02-14 рs 18:58, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com escreveu:
> There is little direct correlation between Linear B which is a pre-IE language and
> Greek which is an IE language. In Greek, the word for king is basilikos but in
> Linear B it is wanax.

It is (w)anax in homerian greek for agammenon King of Kings(iliade
1.442), in linear B it is WA-NA-KA. The W appears in archaic
inscritption in corynth/Argos (through the digamma F)

Basileus stems from the mycenean word for local rulers (sorry I forgot
it in Linear B)

> You want to tell me how you get one from the other.

You don't they represent different functions in the Mycenean kingdoms
and also in the Homerian poems.

> Besides, Ancient Greek to Hellenistic Greek (New Testament) to Byzantine (Medieval)
> Greek to Modern Greek is a logical progression. If you can read Hellenistic Greek,
> you can make out modern Greek despite the influence of Gothic, Slavic, and English
> languages.

It is not so easy, believe me I tried.

> However, even if you read Classical Greek you cannot make out Linear A (Minoan) or
> Linear B (Mycenaean).

Linear A : not deciphered. Linear B: much easier as Modern Greek: you
read it after transliterating, even the cases are conserved. There is a
general R->L migration some voyels evolved to i, you have to find out
where to forget about voyels in order to get the pure consonants that
appear in Classical greek, but it is definitively understandable.

I totally agree with Caesariensis that it does not seem to have been
designed for representing Greek exactly because of the lack of pure
consonnants, but it really represents greek. And I have definitively no
idea of what it was supposed to represent originally.

Remember: the tablets we read are from the last days of the various
Palaces, the writing could be much older, before the arrival of the IE
myceneans.

> Linear A & B can only be considered Greek if you mean the geographical area of
> Ancient Greek city-states of the Classical Period was the same as the Mycenaean
> culture. If Linear A/B were actually related to IE Greek, why were they
> undecipherable until Chadwick did Linear B in 1952?
>

Because Linear B is a syllabic language and we have no Rosette table
+ many people (before 1950) thought they represented an unknown
language, unrelated to greek.

Chadwick deciphered Linear B using secret code deciphering tecniques
with the simple assumptions that :
1) Names of places did not change between the language represented by
Linear B and Classical Greek.
2) The most common words should be the name of the place were the
tablets were discoverd.

It came as a surprise to him that the transliterated texts made sense in
greek (an archaic form of greek).

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] CHARIOT RACE NOW!!!! Join Factio Praesina!!!!!
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:42:22 -0000


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	"Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>" <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:52:51 -0000

> Sanskrit is the first, and most likely, purest form of IE extant
> being approximately 4-5,000 years old. The form of Old Greek we
> are familiar with was not written down until 2,800 years ago.

I'm not questioning whether Sanskrit was the first IE language to be
written - I honestly don't know. And it was originally thought that
Sanskrit was a very pure form of IE, because in a lot of cases the
consonants one has to reconstruct for IE are the same as in Sanskrit
(Sanskrit has complex consonants like 'bh' and 'dh', and generally
sounds get easier to say, rather than harder).

But there's something called Collitz's Law, or palatalgesetz, which
is I think a *fairly* recent discovery on the scale of IE studies
(lots of scholars noticed/published on it simultaneously, no-one's
quite sure who got there first), which shows that in fact Sanskrit
branched off from eg. Greek quite early on, and in terms of vowel
sounds is not as pure as Latin and Greek.

It was previously thought that o and e in Latin and Greek were local
innovations from Sanskrit a, IE *a. But basically it's been quite
clearly demonstrated that in fact Sanskrit a occurs where IE would
have had *a in some cases, but *e or *o in others (I can't do long &
short symbols on this computer, but I mean both anyway).

That's all I was trying to say :)

Livia

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	"Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>" <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:58:06 -0000

> The language in question were Linear A and Linear B which were both
> pre-IE languages

Can I just say, in my opinion, I think everyone would find these
discussions a lot clearer and simpler if everyone distinguished more
clearly between languages and scripts, and also between linguistic
groups and cultural groups and ethnic groups. I admit there is often
a big enough overlap that it's all too easy to equate them. But I
really think it would be easier to have this discussion if we didn't,
because sometimes I'm finding myself agreeing in principle with what
someone says, but not with the fact that they're talking about Indo-
Europeans (which sounds to me like an ethnic group) rather
than 'people who speak Indo-European languages'. I'm just easily
confused, and I like things to be as simple as possible given that
we're having quite complex technical discussions :)

Livia

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:03:13 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com

people involved. Why did early man move out of Africa with the plentiful game to arid regions like the Sahara or Arabian Penisula? Why did the neolithic hunters move so far north or east? Was it just to

They didn't! The Sahara is a recent desert and existing cities developed irrigation as it dried up. Same for Iraq but the irrigation itslf poisoned the land with sedimentary salts. Arabia was probably populated from across the Red Sea via Yemen but it is only in the generation before Mohammed that inland cities started to become more than stopover points.
As the glaciers retreated or even before, Africa was probably not so fertile. Jungle is not as fertile today as people like to believe. The subglacial tundra of Europe though was extremely fertile both in tough plants the humans could not eat and in vast herd they could that depended on those plants. It's not the most comfortable place to be but Neanderthalers had got there already and it seems that while they went straight North, Cro-Magnon came East via an Asian stopover (the Mediterranean having developed meantime).
Just possibly it was a mutant variety with inactive melanin who went North to escape sunburn.

Caesariensis.

"Democracy means deceive people into doing what the rich want, and markets means make sure the public subsidize the rich." Noam Chomsky

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	"Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>" <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:04:16 -0000

> Not so sure about Latin because it seems to have reinvented the
> verbs based on additions of Ire, and did again with Habere.

Ah, I see. I was originally confused by your message, but I think I
understand where we've misunderstood one another. I was talking
about the vowels which IE *had* being closer to those of Latin and
Greek - not necessarily that Latin words have those same vowel sounds
in the right places in equivalent words.

> Then there's the Centum-Satem shift on top and this preference for
> impersonals and passives. That must have applied to the East in
> general because Slavic pasts are of agreeing form though I can't
> imagine where they got an L from.

Another thing you might be interested in, which I've been taught over
the last couple of weeks and is apparently another new development,
is that the centum/satem divide is no longer considered to be so
strictly an East/West divide as was once thought. Just a point of
interest :) I find that shift very interesting myself, I'd be
interested to know more about what caused it if anyone has any
references for theories on that - it seems to be one of those things
they just teach you is the case, and *may* explain later but may not.

It's a fantastic subject to study, though. I do enjoy it! (And
really enjoy having people to discuss with who aren't being forced to
study it for their course.)

Livia

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	"Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>" <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:16:17 -0000

> It is (w)anax in homerian greek for agammenon King of Kings(iliade
> 1.442), in linear B it is WA-NA-KA. The W appears in archaic
> inscritption in corynth/Argos (through the digamma F)

Yay, digamma! :)

> Basileus stems from the mycenean word for local rulers (sorry I
forgot
> it in Linear B)

Which sheds interesting light on most Homeric scholars' stubborn
insistence on claiming that every instance of the word basileus
should be interpreted as 'king', with all that implies - and
inferring about the society based on that.

Livia

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:26:32 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
>
>Yes and the Mycenean culture was a greek one, Crete we don't know since
>Linear A is not deciphered.
>
I believe that A has been deciphered as logographic so that in effect you get the same thing written twice, as if FoWo DoLa 4$.
A very good explanation by a German minerologist is that there was no 'Minoan'bull culture but that Knossos etc are ossuaries. The reason a minerologist came to this conclusion is that he found it strange that all the royal 'baths'had no plumbing and were made of water-soluble gypsum. Further investigation revealed all sorts of discrepancies: the royal apartments of Knossos are 5 floors down (entrance is at the top of a hill) so must have been as gloomy as the grave. If they were the grave, not surprising! Then again, the 'maze' is understandable since spooks are not very bright and more than keeping anyone out it is to keep them in. The 'kitchens'are in places entirely unsuitable for transporting food and contain storage jars it is impossible to get into but all quite represented in later Egyptian necropoleis. Furthermore it is on Egyptian record that when they first started to embalm mummies instead of just leaving them to dry in the desert, it is to Crete that they sent for embalmers.
The 'tribute lists' are therefore shown to be funeral or annual gifts to the dead and donations to consult them. They are written in Linear B Greek for practicality and in A logographs for the gods/dead, Heaven being invariably old-fashioned, whether it's the Vatican's Latin or Vedic chant 3,000 years on.
Some of the frescoes show this (where Arthur Evans has not 'restored'them to the latest Art Nouveau!) while the marine theme of so many more is always associated with death. Dolphins/Porpoises are the souls of dead sailors - everybody knows that. As for the bull-leaping, well the opinion of a professional torero is that it shows some poor girl being gored and if it led to bull-fighting, took a few centuries later to do it.
The same source suggests that the great pyre Achilles builds in Trojan War is not to cremate Patroklos but to smoke-cure him into human ham. That way he can be shipped home for burial in state.
As for the culture, in classical times it was the only Polis similar to but less extreme than Sparta, which may mean that there was some truth in a previous matriarchal system, there being evidence for this (Helen especially) in Sparta. In such a system, all the men get to do is kicked out into barracks to fight. On Crete they would have had the sea as well but note as for Minoan-Mykenaian, Crete is listed with the Akhaiwoi against Troy, not on the Trojan side some believe 'Minoans' would have been.

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/