Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Conventiculum Rusticum - Rural Latin Seminar June 2003
From:	"julilla" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:06:29 -0000

Julilla Sempronia Magna omnibus SPD

We cives who live in the west often look at the many great meetings
that our fellow cives in more densely populated areas have access to:
ah, Roman Days, the museums, Roman Market Days and more!

Here in Provincia America Boreoccidentalis, thanks to the work of my
Latin Professor, Nova Romans with an interest in and ability -- no
matter how limited -- to speak Latin, can meet regularly in Seattle
to practice their spoken Latin. There will be three weekend sessions
before school lets out this year, March 22, April 19, and May 17.
Then to cap it off, an international Latin seminar takes place here
in my town of Aquis Albis (Wenatchee) in June. Sadly, I will be in
Rome at the time, but it promises to be outstanding!

Documents describing this Conventiculum Rusticum Vasintoniense are
posted at our Yahoo Latin group,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas

and links to Dr. Berard's spoken Latin seminars can be found here:

http://www.wvc.edu/latinseminars_eng.html


To quote my Wheelock, "Latina est gaudium -- et utilis!"

---
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Praetrix America Boreoccidentalis
|||| http://ambor.novaroma.org
Discussion Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmBor_Waves/

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"jlasalle" <jlasalle@sbcglobal.net>
Date:	Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:41:34 -0600

Steve

Its all conspiratorial. The true cause of all of it is UFOs and Saskwatch.
You see, like the movie "Predator", which is actually based on a true story,
aliens hunt us only during times of war. Therefore, with their superior
alien intellect, they control the minds of our leaders to keep us in a
constant state of war. They were unsuccessful with President Clinton,
however, because his unique brain simply turned all the alien commands into
a uncontrollable impulse to rape women, steal money, ans sell military
secrets to our enemies. However, with the typical dullard mind of the
American Conservative, the aliens now have free reign. I forgot how
Saskwatch fits into to all of this, but all furry ape-like creatures running
naked thru our national parks must certainly be regarded with suspicion.

Vale

GB Agricola
-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:11 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House


What do you mean hamstrung him? I remember him him lobbing some Tomahawks
into Iraq, shooting down Jet Planes and lobbing Tomahawks into the
Sudan...which just egged them on and on...til we got 9/11 and then the
entire paradigm shifted.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House


In a message dated 3/18/03 10:26:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hedeabianchia@unc.edu writes:


> This
> should have been finished years ago (probably would have been, too, of
> Clinton weren't such an idiot).
>

You are kidding right? The GOPs hamstrung him every time he wanted to
anything about Iraq.
What is this all about anyway? We armed a despot to fight our enemies
in
Iran. Now because of a stupid idea about us being the worlds policemen,
that
a bunch of power mad and deranged DORs (Disgruntled old Republicans)
came up
with in '97 is now a blue print for world peace in the middle East?
And this from a guy who ran on a platform of domestic issues first.

Sorry I don't buy it.

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] War, NR and this list-Let us pray, fellow citizens.
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:53:58 EST

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to SPQNR. Salvete.

Although our consuls have proclaimed NR to be neutral in the coming war, I
exercise my right as a citizen to ask that regardless of our political or
personal opinions, let us pray to the our gods that our macronational leaders
are blessed with wisdom and strength in the coming days. That those family
members, friends, and associates in the many areas of danger throughout the
world shall be blessed with courage, fortitude, and luck. That those who
might strike back in fear or unreasoning hate shall withhold their anger from
the old, the sick, the children, and those who are without blame in these
perilous times. If war is to come, let it be quick and to its purpose so
that all the children of our world may swiftly return to peace and, perhaps,
a better life. May the gods hear the prayers of their worshippers in this
dark and uncertain time. Fiat, fiat, fiat lux.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Today's Doonesbury strip
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:55:09 EST

Governor, I meant governor. Sorry.

F Gal Aur Sec


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Nietzsche and NR list
From:	caiustarquitius@gmx.de
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 02:26:12 +0100 (MET)

Salvete.


No, it is not Nietzsche.
Apart from that the term "war drum" in what language soever was unknown to
the romans. They did not use drums in war. That fact hints to a relatively
modern origin of the term.

I for my part cannot understand why people here are going on to post their
more or less argumentative or intelligent opinions about the Iraq-conflict.
The Consuls have stated that NR is neutral. Additionally, there is always the
possibility to create an extra group for a certain topic. I suggest that
those who think that it is important that everybody knows what they are thinking
do that, and post their enlightened opinions somewhere else. What is going on
here is simply contraproductive and in some parts insulting for other NR
citizens. Apart from that, if people would think before they write it would not
be necessary that the moderators interfere. Obviously some people seem not to
do that or seem to be unable to do that. What a pity.

Valete,
Caius Tarquitius Saturninus
Eques, Paterfamilias

--
Bonis nocet, qui malis parcit.


+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++
Bitte lächeln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne eigene Homepage!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 18 Mar 2003 23:56:34 -0500

qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com said" The United States is not Rome, no matter how much
you want to believe. And we certainly have no right to start a war against
the opinion of the United Nations."

The coalition that President Bush has assembled is the THIRD largest military coalition in history. Only WWII and the first gulf war had bigger coalitions The UN that the USA help create is full of Saddam like dictators whose time
may soon be up.

The "Democratic" and human rights poster nation of Libya is now in charge of HUMAN RIGHTS at the UN and IRAQ is in charge of DISARMAMENT. The UN charter states that ALL nation-states have the right of self-defense. This war is
still going on from 1991 because the UN would not, could not ENFORCE it OWN resolutions. 18 resolution in 12 years!!!! Iraq AGREED to DISARM in return for an armistice. When you break the terms of an armistice the war is on again

US troops are in the Balkans because the Europeans can't even police their own FRONT yard. Clinton did not ask the UN to go the Balkans or Somalia .

As to the US not being Rome, your right. We tried Empire in the late 19th century and did not like it and truth be told we were not very good at it. We could never forget that we were the first colony to kick out the mother country. (Sorry Britain ,we still love you, and this from an Irish- American just after St. Patrick's Day)

Rome on the other hand WOULD HAVE TOLD Turkey it was using it's territory, it would not have asked permission.

Can anybody imagine a ROMAN fleet waiting around for PERMISSION to disembark, so they can then go to war. Not very likely.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen


----- Original Message -----
From: <qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House


> In a message dated 3/18/03 8:53:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> jlasalle@sbcglobal.net writes:
>
>
> > We're really scared of an embargo, or boycott from the UN. Look how bad
it
> > scared Saddam Hussein. He was really whipped into shape.
> >
>
> When are you leaving to lead our boys to victory? If we win this war, it
> will be because
> of the embargo limited his weapon importation and material. Personally I
> hope he abdicates
> Save some American lives.
> The United States is not Rome, no matter how much you want to believe.
And
> we certainly have no right to start a war against the opinion of the
United
> Nations. This idiot and his Gang of Four, will reside in a special place
in
> Hades for this stupidity.
>
> Stephen Phenow
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Anyone read paranormal time-travel ancient Roman
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:17:57 -0500

A favorite of mine is Magus Rex by Jack Lovejoy. It is about a young wizard
named Valerian who falls in love with the daughter of the Magus Rex, the
most powerful wizard of all time. Magus Rex tests Valerian by taking his
daughter on a journey through time, forcing her suitor to follow them. If he
survives and can find her, he can marry her. One of the parts takes place in
ancient Rome where Valerian uses his powers to train the beasts in the
venationes.

You can pick up a used copy at amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0523485328/qid%3D1048049929/sr%3D11-1
/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-4411310-6919104

Ti. Ambrosius

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:28:06 -0500

You mean the Rainbow gatherings people? They're harmless!

-----Original Message-----
From: jlasalle [mailto:jlasalle@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 March, 2003 19:42
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House


...
Saskwatch fits into to all of this, but all furry ape-like creatures running
naked thru our national parks must certainly be regarded with suspicion.
...

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: War, NR and this list-Let us pray, fellow citizens.
From:	"Livia Cornelia Hibernia" <lindaw@san.rr.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 05:20:47 -0000

Ave Secundus,

As the Baptists say, "Amen!"
I could not agree more and I believe this neither violates our
neutrality nor is in any way devisive. Let us each pray, to whatever
deities we honor, for all the combatants as well as the innocents and
for a speedy end to the conflict.

I believe it was the American Civil War general Sherman who said,
with the wisdom of an old soldier, "the only good thing about a war
is the ending of it."

Yes, indeed, let us pray.

Vale

Hibernia

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to SPQNR. Salvete.
>
> Although our consuls have proclaimed NR to be neutral in the coming
war, I
> exercise my right as a citizen to ask that regardless of our
political or
> personal opinions, let us pray to the our gods that our
macronational leaders
> are blessed with wisdom and strength in the coming days. That
those family
> members, friends, and associates in the many areas of danger
throughout the
> world shall be blessed with courage, fortitude, and luck. That
those who
> might strike back in fear or unreasoning hate shall withhold their
anger from
> the old, the sick, the children, and those who are without blame in
these
> perilous times. If war is to come, let it be quick and to its
purpose so
> that all the children of our world may swiftly return to peace and,
perhaps,
> a better life. May the gods hear the prayers of their worshippers
in this
> dark and uncertain time. Fiat, fiat, fiat lux.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] NR list and war
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 05:43:37 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, caiustarquitius@g... wrote:
> Salvete.

Salve C. Tarquiti Saturni et salvete omnes,

> I for my part cannot understand why people here are going on to
>post their more or less argumentative or intelligent opinions about
>the Iraq-conflict. The Consuls have stated that NR is neutral.
>Additionally, there is always the possibility to create an extra
>group for a certain topic. I suggest that those who think that it is
>important that everybody knows what they are thinking do that, and
>post their enlightened opinions somewhere else. What is going on
> here is simply contraproductive and in some parts insulting for
>other NR citizens. Apart from that, if people would think before
>they write it would not be necessary that the moderators interfere.
>Obviously some people seem not to do that or seem to be unable to do
>that. What a pity.

I think it is unrealistic to expect people to drop this subject when
it is foremost in all of our minds. We are a community and
communities talk together about issues that concern them. I would
hope that we can discuss Roman topics whenever as it is our focus in
Nova Roma. However, it is hard to concentrate on, for example, a
discussion of a Saylor Roman mystery novel when a major war is about
to begin. I think most of us are mature enough to keep any discussion
of the war from exploding into a war of insults here within Nova
Roma. Nova Roma may be neutral but we do not live in cocoons and may
want to talk about this with members of our community.

That being said, discussion is expected to remain polite. Avoid
personal attacks, either of individuals or of their nations. Think
before you send a message, hesitate and get some perspective first.
Disagreement with policies or actions is one thing, attacks on
character, either personal or national, are something entirely
different.

Discussion of the war has remained relatively calm and I am not
disappointed with the deportment of our citizens in this forum so
far. As praetores we have elected to have a relatively hands off
policy this year, allowing the citizens to choose what topics are
discussed in this forum and the direction those discussions take. I
am convinced it is a wise choice.

As praetores though, we retain the power to regulate discussion on
this list, though I hope that remains unecessary.

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Praetor

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Wars of liberation
From:	"Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 01:18:58 -0500

I think the Romans themselves thought nearly every war they fought was a war
of liberation - if at least for Roman business interests. If I remember
correctly, the "defense of liberty" was an often-cited justification for
Roman aggression, and not necessarily hypocritical. Drusus invaded Germany
to protect the liberties of tribes friendly to Rome (i.e. those with trading
relations) from others that raided them (and Roman merchants). It's possible
Gaul fell so quickly to Caesar because many tribes were willing to side with
him against other tribes that ruled over them. So also did the Numidians
side with Rome against the domination of the Carthaginians (though Rome was
later to prove just as demanding a taskmaster to those she "liberated").

Rome's problem was always not knowing when to stop. She would conquer a
people, give them civilization, security, and prosperity. After resigning
themselves to conquest, the people accepted Roman rule and grew to
appreciate their new standards of living. But the Romans would try to
squeeze more and more out of them, as each new generation sought to get
their "piece" of the action. Thus rebellions in Gaul, three generations
after Caesar so thoroughly conquered it, because Roman tax assessment was
too high, and tax collection methods too harsh. In Britain, having a king
will his realm to Rome did not suffice when his daughters could be violated
as well, leading to war and nearly the complete extermination of Roman
Britain. Imagine the cohesiveness and stability the empire could have had if
the Romans had been more judicious and less greedy.

I think America is not like Rome in that respect, I hope we've learned since
then not to take things too far. How we treated Germany and Japan after the
last great war should be the model for treating a conquered country. Those
countries too, were liberated from onerous dictatorships, and now they are
two of our best friendly rivals and trading partners, and their citizens
enjoy some of the highest standards of living. The Iraqis are civilized
people. I pray that they realize that Saddam Hussein is not worth giving
their lives up for, and that there would be no shame in giving him up.

TAS

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Gallagher [mailto:spqr753@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 March, 2003 11:13
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House

...
liberated ( and as much as I love Rome, she never once launched a war of
liberation) the people of Iraq will welcome allied troops as the liberators
that they are and the world will then know who was right and who was wrong.
...

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Bellum
From:	"austrolopithicus_robustus" <austrolopithicus_robustus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 05:52:44 -0000

Salvete,

Whatever the reasoning is, peoples lives will end. All we can do
is wish comfort for the familes affected by this. So, I agree with the
recent posts on this matter.And ask for their gods to comfort them if
the time comes. And welcome the troops who will be fortunate enough to
hold their loved ones, once again.Speculating in the politics of it
would just be out of ignorrance, since most of us do not have anything
above a secret clearance.

Austro

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"Marcus Iulius Perusianus" <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:35:53 -0000

Avete ones,

> Its all conspiratorial. The true cause of all of it is UFOs and
Saskwatch.
> You see, like the movie "Predator", which is actually based on a
true story,
> aliens hunt us only during times of war. Therefore, with their
superior
> alien intellect, they control the minds of our leaders to keep us
in a
> constant state of war. They were unsuccessful with President
Clinton,
> however, because his unique brain simply turned all the alien
commands into
> a uncontrollable impulse to rape women, steal money, ans sell
military
> secrets to our enemies. However, with the typical dullard mind of
the
> American Conservative, the aliens now have free reign. I forgot how
> Saskwatch fits into to all of this, but all furry ape-like
creatures running
> naked thru our national parks must certainly be regarded with
suspicion.

thank you for sharing with us this kind of letters, we really need
them on this mailing list.
And thank you too to who is not following Senator M Cassius
Iulianus "advice" to post them in private.

respectfully

M IVL PERVSIANVS

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Wars of liberation
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@aol.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:21:20 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@u...>
wrote:
> Rome's problem was always not knowing when to stop. She would
conquer a people, give them civilization, security, and prosperity.
After resigning themselves to conquest, the people accepted Roman
rule and grew to appreciate their new standards of living. But the
Romans would try to squeeze more and more out of them, as each new
generation sought to get their "piece" of the action.

Cassis respondit:
It seems to me that there were other factors in this. "Rome" had good
policies toward the provinciae, but individual governors (praetors,
propraetors, Consuls, etc.) did not always have good intent. How well
a province got treated had a great deal to do with the person put in
charge.

In Britain, for instance, the events leading to the rape and
humiliation of Boudicca's daughters were the result of bad and
uncaring loal governorship. The official provincial policies from
Rome itself were no different there than anywhere else. After the
revolt, a new governor was put in (Classicianus) who did his best to
promote tolerance and harmony under the very same overall policies.

If a remote province was misrun, it was very difficult for the
Censors, Senate or Emperors to get accurate wind of it. Official
reports were aways 'dressed up', and influential governors had plenty
of supporters in Rome to put a 'spin' on things. Without modern
communication, it often took a lot of time and trouble for the truth
to be found out.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] On the realms of murderer Belona (was Re: War, NR and this list)
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:02:36 -0000

Salvete,

I agree entirely with Senator Iulianus. Let´s have a little bit of
conscience to write on the list.

As anyone I´m depressed, the decisions made remebers me that part of
the Iliad, book XIX:

"And among them spake the king of men, Agamemnon, even from the place
where he sat, not standing forth in their midst: "My friends, Danaan
warriors, squires of Ares, meet is it to give ear to him that
standeth to speak, nor is it seemly to break in upon his words;
grievous were that even for one well-skilled. And amid the uproar of
many how should a man either hear or speak? --hampered is he then,
clear-voiced talker though he be...But what could I do? It is God
that bringeth all things to their issue. Eldest daughter of Zeus is
Ate that blindeth all--a power fraught with bane; delicate are her
feet, for it is not upon the ground that she fareth, but she walketh
over the heads of men, bringing men to harm, and this one or that she
ensnareth. Aye, and on a time she blinded Zeus, albeit men say that
he is the greatest among men and gods... Even so I also, what time
great Hector of the flashing helm was making havoc of the Argives at
the sterns of the ships, could not forget Ate, of whom at the first I
was made blind. Howbeit seeing I was blinded, and Zeus robbed me of
my wits, fain am I to make amends and to give requital past
counting..."

Ate, the blinder of kings!

The problem is that: Even the ´pacifists´ on the list get angry with
some alienated and misinformated declarations we´ve read here. I
myself must close my email to not give a response for such so naive
puppets of Belona I´ve read, and, oh Concordia Mother, how I suffer
containing myself! How painful is opening the gates of the Temple of
Father Ianus!

Damned times ours, that the desire of peace is charged as shameful
and ´making a party´!

I finish with the words of Virgilius, most celebrated of the roman
poets on the Aeneid, book I:

Then will the world grow mild; the battle-sound
will be forgot; for olden Honor then,
with spotless Vesta, and the brothers twain,
Remus and Romulus, at strife no more,
will publish sacred laws. The dreadful gates
whence issueth war, shall with close-jointed steel
be barred impregnably; and prisoned there
the heaven-offending Fury, throned on swords,
and fettered by a hundred brazen chains,
shall belch vain curses from his lips of gore."



L. Arminius Faustus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> On March 12, in message #8670, our Consuls took the admirable step
of
> declaring Nova Roma a neutral party in the current macronational
events. A
> war between the US and Iraq has little to do with "things Roman,"
and we have
> Citizens from many countries, religions and sides of the political
spectrum.
> It is extremely unlikely that we would ever reach consensus on this
issue -
> and even if we could it wouldn't make much difference to Nova Roma
itself.
>
>
(snipped)

> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Senator
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 504
From:	"csorik janos" <csorikjanos@hotmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:43:52 +0200

SALVETE,

We praise our roman ancestors and their great civilization, but some of us
behave worst than the barbars who destroyed it. I try hard but i can not
understand how mature people like you can behave like this. Nova Roma is
about our common love for roman ideals and this discussion list is intended
exclusively for that purpose. This is not the playground or a popular resort
area. This is not a jacobin meeting and we are not ploting the Frech
Revolution.

GAIUS MARIUS CRASSUS

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Doonesbury
From:	"Chantal G. Whittington" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 05:59:50 -0800 (PST)

Honey as Duke's lictor?

Bwahahahahahaha!!!!

That is too perfect! I love the image of Duke in a
toga, carrying fasces. That is choice.

Calvus--Re Duke, I've never thought of him as
right-wing; I usually just think of him as weird. He
is nothing like George Will, for instance. For a
right-winger in Doonesbury, I'd look at BD.

I haven't been able to read Doonesbury in a long time.
What is Zonker up to? He was always my
favorite character.

Knowing him, he'd want to open up a tanning resort in
Iraq. I can see it. (g)

Anyone answering, please feel free to reply to me
privately, so as not to clutter the list.

Renata Corva

=====
Chantal
http://www.theranweyr.org

"Yesterday, it worked.
Today, it is not working.
Windows is like that."

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@aol.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:03:47 -0000

Salvete,

In the last five years the NR lists have been through several
difficult times. Experience has proven that people *will* talk about
things like war no matter what... and that some of those posts are
going to seem negative or even unproductive.

The best thing we can do try to keep the list on topic by not keeping
such threads going on too long by publicly arguing with them or
posting complaints about them. We can also try to keep Roman topics
going, even though that gets difficult to do in times of public
stress.

Remember, in bad times the "Delete" key is your friend! ;) Also,
remember that the Praetors will do their job if things get too ugly,
so there are some safeguards built into our Forums.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:44:21 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : ames0826@cs.com

>>From : jlasalle lt;jlasalle@sbcglobal.netgt;
>>gt;
>>gt;Love is trap laid out by the forces of evolution. Pleasure is the bait laid
>>gt;out by the same force. There is only Power. Power is of the individual mind,
>>gt;but Power of the Mind is not enough. Power of the body decides everything in
>>gt;the end, and only Might makes Right.
>>gt;
>
>Sounds like Nietsche (sp?).
>
It did occur to me to add 'or German' as I was sending it so by then it was too late. One could analyse it further to decide that if Love and Pleaasure are traps of Evolution, it follows that their opposite are featured of DEvolution. Reminds me of a strange little story called something like Mzee in the Ring, following the thoughts of Julius Nyerere in a boxing match against the odious Idi Amin who had declared he would sort differences out with personal combat one hand tied behind his back. think I'd prefer gladiatorial combat to a boxing match between the Baghdad Butcher and the Dallas Dimwit; more chance they'd rid the world of both.
Of course where might makes right there's luckily no room for intellectuals capable of devising sophisticated weaponry. And if you do risk having them, you risk their sabotaging their research or using it against you.

Caesariensis.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The War
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 06:20:58 -0800 (PST)

Salvete Omnes,

The war has caused deep divisions between nations that
were once good friends and deep divisions inside many
of the nations. It would be most unfortunate in Nova
Roma joined the list of nations with deep divisions.
Many have developed a strong emotions over the issuses
involved in this war. Because of this an offhand
comment, or a joke that few would think about in
calmer times can touch off an outburst that can lead
to more anger from those with different views, leading
to more angry posts in an ever widdening circle.

I realize that many of you feel strongly about this
war. I feel that way myself. I Understand the need to
reach out to others in times like this, and that this
will lead to citizens posting thier thoughts on this
list, as is thier right under our Constitution.

If you feel that you must post on the war I ask, I
beg, that you respect those who disagree with you. I
Read political lists that aren't concerned with Nova
Roma, and have seen more than enough accusations of
"War Monger" and "America Hating Leftwinger" to last
me for a long time.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman List
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:24:00 -0500 (EST)

Senator and Colleague Cassius Julianus;

Well said Senator!!!!!! Well said!!!!!

It is unfortunate that their are those who carry thier disatisfaction of
the U.S. into this list dedicated to the Roman Culture and History.

For my part, I get far more input from my TV set on this unfortunae
necessity that we are about to engage in, and the data, recieved is
arguably more accurate, up to date, as well as a tad more level in it's
approach to the actual elements leading to this problem.

Let us cncentrate upon the wide and infinate variety of the Roman world,
and leave the conflict to those who have at hand far more accurate
information than any of us possess, and who do not merely engage in "a
war of words."

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On the realms of murderer Belona (was Re: War, NR and this list)
From:	Anthony Scott <optio456@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 06:17:44 -0800 (PST)

Hello All,
I want to add my own view whilst still following the neutrality thing. I am a soldier, have been for most of my life. I have also grown to hold in contempt bullies and people who would gas innocents. For those of you with short or selective memories, Saddam gassed thousands of Iranians and Kurds with tools so repugnant that he deserves what is coming. He has casually ignored repeated warnings to disarm, and has pretty much told us to get stuffed. This time, if the nations that provided him those weapons in the first place will do nothing, then we go alone and get that particular rattlesnake out of there and do what we did in Afghanistan, namely give the people, the ordinay blokes, a chance tolive without fear, without dreading the knock on the door. Whether the United States is innocent of supplying arms and technical advice to the Iraquis during their war with Iran is better left up to others to debate, all I know is that this fellow has killed innocent women and children, has flouted international law, and made a mockery of all of us freedom loving and defending people. As my commander said to us today:"We go now and we get it done. No more words, no more children gassed."
The time for dissent is clearly running it's course and in the final analysis the fact that others can march on washington and fear nothing more than a few hours incarceration for crossing a police line only proves that we soldiers, airmen, Marines, and sailors are doing our jobs. Like my commanding officer said: We go NOW. And like those people on that hijacked flight, who did not die in vain, said: "Let's Roll!"
Thanks for reading my words, I am off to do my duty as an airman should, dreading the loss of life on both sides but knowing it is necessary.
Anthony
Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br> wrote:Salvete,

I agree entirely with Senator Iulianus. Let´s have a little bit of
conscience to write on the list.

As anyone I´m depressed, the decisions made remebers me that part of
the Iliad, book XIX:

"And among them spake the king of men, Agamemnon, even from the place
where he sat, not standing forth in their midst: "My friends, Danaan
warriors, squires of Ares, meet is it to give ear to him that
standeth to speak, nor is it seemly to break in upon his words;
grievous were that even for one well-skilled. And amid the uproar of
many how should a man either hear or speak? --hampered is he then,
clear-voiced talker though he be...But what could I do? It is God
that bringeth all things to their issue. Eldest daughter of Zeus is
Ate that blindeth all--a power fraught with bane; delicate are her
feet, for it is not upon the ground that she fareth, but she walketh
over the heads of men, bringing men to harm, and this one or that she
ensnareth. Aye, and on a time she blinded Zeus, albeit men say that
he is the greatest among men and gods... Even so I also, what time
great Hector of the flashing helm was making havoc of the Argives at
the sterns of the ships, could not forget Ate, of whom at the first I
was made blind. Howbeit seeing I was blinded, and Zeus robbed me of
my wits, fain am I to make amends and to give requital past
counting..."

Ate, the blinder of kings!

The problem is that: Even the ´pacifists´ on the list get angry with
some alienated and misinformated declarations we´ve read here. I
myself must close my email to not give a response for such so naive
puppets of Belona I´ve read, and, oh Concordia Mother, how I suffer
containing myself! How painful is opening the gates of the Temple of
Father Ianus!

Damned times ours, that the desire of peace is charged as shameful
and ´making a party´!

I finish with the words of Virgilius, most celebrated of the roman
poets on the Aeneid, book I:

Then will the world grow mild; the battle-sound
will be forgot; for olden Honor then,
with spotless Vesta, and the brothers twain,
Remus and Romulus, at strife no more,
will publish sacred laws. The dreadful gates
whence issueth war, shall with close-jointed steel
be barred impregnably; and prisoned there
the heaven-offending Fury, throned on swords,
and fettered by a hundred brazen chains,
shall belch vain curses from his lips of gore."



L. Arminius Faustus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> On March 12, in message #8670, our Consuls took the admirable step
of
> declaring Nova Roma a neutral party in the current macronational
events. A
> war between the US and Iraq has little to do with "things Roman,"
and we have
> Citizens from many countries, religions and sides of the political
spectrum.
> It is extremely unlikely that we would ever reach consensus on this
issue -
> and even if we could it wouldn't make much difference to Nova Roma
itself.
>
>
(snipped)

> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Senator
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On the realms of murderer Belona (was Re: War, NR and this list)
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:38:41 -0500

Salve

Thank You for your service and may God keep you safe.

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Scott" <optio456@yahoo.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] On the realms of murderer Belona (was Re: War, NR
and this list)



Hello All,
I want to add my own view whilst still following the neutrality thing. I am
a soldier, have been for most of my life. I have also grown to hold in
contempt bullies and people who would gas innocents. For those of you with
short or selective memories, Saddam gassed thousands of Iranians and Kurds
with tools so repugnant that he deserves what is coming. He has casually
ignored repeated warnings to disarm, and has pretty much told us to get
stuffed. This time, if the nations that provided him those weapons in the
first place will do nothing, then we go alone and get that particular
rattlesnake out of there and do what we did in Afghanistan, namely give the
people, the ordinay blokes, a chance tolive without fear, without dreading
the knock on the door. Whether the United States is innocent of supplying
arms and technical advice to the Iraquis during their war with Iran is
better left up to others to debate, all I know is that this fellow has
killed innocent women and children, has flouted international law, and made
a mockery of all of us freedom loving and defending people. As my commander
said to us today:"We go now and we get it done. No more words, no more
children gassed."
The time for dissent is clearly running it's course and in the final
analysis the fact that others can march on washington and fear nothing more
than a few hours incarceration for crossing a police line only proves that
we soldiers, airmen, Marines, and sailors are doing our jobs. Like my
commanding officer said: We go NOW. And like those people on that hijacked
flight, who did not die in vain, said: "Let's Roll!"
Thanks for reading my words, I am off to do my duty as an airman should,
dreading the loss of life on both sides but knowing it is necessary.
Anthony
Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br> wrote:Salvete,

I agree entirely with Senator Iulianus. Let´s have a little bit of
conscience to write on the list.

As anyone I´m depressed, the decisions made remebers me that part of
the Iliad, book XIX:

"And among them spake the king of men, Agamemnon, even from the place
where he sat, not standing forth in their midst: "My friends, Danaan
warriors, squires of Ares, meet is it to give ear to him that
standeth to speak, nor is it seemly to break in upon his words;
grievous were that even for one well-skilled. And amid the uproar of
many how should a man either hear or speak? --hampered is he then,
clear-voiced talker though he be...But what could I do? It is God
that bringeth all things to their issue. Eldest daughter of Zeus is
Ate that blindeth all--a power fraught with bane; delicate are her
feet, for it is not upon the ground that she fareth, but she walketh
over the heads of men, bringing men to harm, and this one or that she
ensnareth. Aye, and on a time she blinded Zeus, albeit men say that
he is the greatest among men and gods... Even so I also, what time
great Hector of the flashing helm was making havoc of the Argives at
the sterns of the ships, could not forget Ate, of whom at the first I
was made blind. Howbeit seeing I was blinded, and Zeus robbed me of
my wits, fain am I to make amends and to give requital past
counting..."

Ate, the blinder of kings!

The problem is that: Even the ´pacifists´ on the list get angry with
some alienated and misinformated declarations we´ve read here. I
myself must close my email to not give a response for such so naive
puppets of Belona I´ve read, and, oh Concordia Mother, how I suffer
containing myself! How painful is opening the gates of the Temple of
Father Ianus!

Damned times ours, that the desire of peace is charged as shameful
and ´making a party´!

I finish with the words of Virgilius, most celebrated of the roman
poets on the Aeneid, book I:

Then will the world grow mild; the battle-sound
will be forgot; for olden Honor then,
with spotless Vesta, and the brothers twain,
Remus and Romulus, at strife no more,
will publish sacred laws. The dreadful gates
whence issueth war, shall with close-jointed steel
be barred impregnably; and prisoned there
the heaven-offending Fury, throned on swords,
and fettered by a hundred brazen chains,
shall belch vain curses from his lips of gore."



L. Arminius Faustus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> On March 12, in message #8670, our Consuls took the admirable step
of
> declaring Nova Roma a neutral party in the current macronational
events. A
> war between the US and Iraq has little to do with "things Roman,"
and we have
> Citizens from many countries, religions and sides of the political
spectrum.
> It is extremely unlikely that we would ever reach consensus on this
issue -
> and even if we could it wouldn't make much difference to Nova Roma
itself.
>
>
(snipped)

> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Senator
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] RE: Wars of liberation
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:23:29 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “Christopher L. Wood“ <xwood@usa.net>
>

>enjoy some of the highest standards of living. The Iraqis are civilized
>people. I pray that they realize that Saddam Hussein is not worth giving
>their lives up for, and that there would be no shame in giving him up.
>
That is just the trouble. It is not the dictators who do the fighting. They are not the ones to see homes and customs violated by ignorant foreign invaders and, as the USA isone of the worst countries to demonstrate, the moment a national threat is perceived, the tendency is for patriotism to over-ride opposition to the system, no matter how vile. The situation is even worse of course where information is pure propaganda so there is no reason to doubt the Leader. Even Bush cannot be naive enough to believe that most Iraqis will welcome heathen barbarians, so he must have wanted to drive all but those ambitious to take Saddam's place into his arms. That figures, since Saddam was a US ally from Nixon to Reagon and they would want a similar but more obedient tyrant regardless of his behavious at home as they did in Chile, Nicaragua, VietNam, El Salvador and have for decades been laughably failing to impose on Cuba.

"Corporation: An ingeous device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility" - Ambrose Bierce.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] On the realms of murderer Belona (was Re: War, NR and this list)
From:	"caesartimurius" <csorikjanos@hotmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:14:37 -0000

Salve,

I had promised myself not to interfere in this unhappy debate but it
seems that instinct got over me. Hopefully for the last time.

Anthony Scott - Do not say that this is a war of liberation because
it is not. People gassed and massacred? Yes… a lot of them. But why
don't you go to free Communist China which executed, massacred,
tortured millions of people!!! You now why? Because all is about
spheres of power and it is purely a economical war.

"No more words, no more children gassed." It is said just to motivate
average soldiers, and it never was the real reason of this war. I
would expected you to understand that.

Good luck in you missions and may God help you.

GAIUS MARIUS CRASSUS

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Scott <optio456@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I want to add my own view whilst still following the neutrality
thing. I am a soldier, have been for most of my life. I have also
grown to hold in contempt bullies and people who would gas innocents.
For those of you with short or selective memories, Saddam gassed
thousands of Iranians and Kurds with tools so repugnant that he
deserves what is coming. He has casually ignored repeated warnings to
disarm, and has pretty much told us to get stuffed. This time, if the
nations that provided him those weapons in the first place will do
nothing, then we go alone and get that particular rattlesnake out of
there and do what we did in Afghanistan, namely give the people, the
ordinay blokes, a chance tolive without fear, without dreading the
knock on the door. Whether the United States is innocent of supplying
arms and technical advice to the Iraquis during their war with Iran
is better left up to others to debate, all I know is that this fellow
has killed innocent women and children, has flouted international
law, and made a mockery of all of us freedom loving and defending
people. As my commander said to us today:"We go now and we get it
done. No more words, no more children gassed."
> The time for dissent is clearly running it's course and in the
final analysis the fact that others can march on washington and fear
nothing more than a few hours incarceration for crossing a police
line only proves that we soldiers, airmen, Marines, and sailors are
doing our jobs. Like my commanding officer said: We go NOW. And like
those people on that hijacked flight, who did not die in vain,
said: "Let's Roll!"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] RE: Wars of liberation
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:42:41 -0800

Ave,

I seem to recall the last Gulf War where on CNN and other news channels there were surrendering Iraqi's. I remember seeing Kurds on the street celebrating as well.

I do not see any reason to expect a different reaction this time around.

Vale,

Sulla


"Each American embassy comes with two permanent features--a giant anti-American demonstration and a giant line for American visas. Most demonstrators spend half their time burning Old Glory and the other half waiting for green cards." - PJ. O'Rourke
----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] RE: Wars of liberation


-----Original Message-----
From : "Christopher L. Wood" <xwood@usa.net>
>

>enjoy some of the highest standards of living. The Iraqis are civilized
>people. I pray that they realize that Saddam Hussein is not worth giving
>their lives up for, and that there would be no shame in giving him up.
>
That is just the trouble. It is not the dictators who do the fighting. They are not the ones to see homes and customs violated by ignorant foreign invaders and, as the USA isone of the worst countries to demonstrate, the moment a national threat is perceived, the tendency is for patriotism to over-ride opposition to the system, no matter how vile. The situation is even worse of course where information is pure propaganda so there is no reason to doubt the Leader. Even Bush cannot be naive enough to believe that most Iraqis will welcome heathen barbarians, so he must have wanted to drive all but those ambitious to take Saddam's place into his arms. That figures, since Saddam was a US ally from Nixon to Reagon and they would want a similar but more obedient tyrant regardless of his behavious at home as they did in Chile, Nicaragua, VietNam, El Salvador and have for decades been laughably failing to impose on Cuba.

"Corporation: An ingeous device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility" - Ambrose Bierce.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman List
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	19 Mar 2003 12:48:15 -0300

Em Qua, 2003-03-19 às 11:24, jmath669642reng@webtv.net escreveu:
> Senator and Colleague Cassius Julianus;
>
> Well said Senator!!!!!! Well said!!!!!
>
> It is unfortunate that their are those who carry thier disatisfaction of
> the U.S. into this list dedicated to the Roman Culture and History.
>

This list is not only dedicated to Roman Culture.
This list is the open forum a free nation of Romans.

We are Romans, we have different opinions and we express them on our
forum. As long as we stay polite, there should be no problem in
expressing our opinions.

Why are we expressing opinions?
Not in order to influence our Roman government which took already
position for neutrality.
Not in order to convince our fellow Roman Citizens which disagree, there
opinion is formed and respected.
Perhaps in order to convince our fellow citizens that have not yet
formed their opinion.

Mostly because we are Romans and we really like to discuss issues in the
forum just like our illustrious forecomers.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

> For my part, I get far more input from my TV set on this unfortunae
> necessity that we are about to engage in, and the data, recieved is
> arguably more accurate, up to date, as well as a tad more level in it's
> approach to the actual elements leading to this problem.
>
> Let us cncentrate upon the wide and infinate variety of the Roman world,
> and leave the conflict to those who have at hand far more accurate
> information than any of us possess, and who do not merely engage in "a
> war of words."
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On the realms of murderer Belona (was Re: War, NR and this list)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:28:52 +0000 (GMT)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Anthony Scott <optio456@yahoo.com>

without dreading the knock on the door. Whether the United States is innocent of supplying arms and technical advice to the Iraquis during their war with Iran is better left up to others to debate, all I know is that this fellow has killed innocent women and children, has flouted

The danger is that nations will always foster this kind of tyrant precisely because it is so easy to find a moral reason to remove them so the tyrant has to toe the line to retain the powerful nation's protection. Saddam has not toed lines that have nothing to do with what his country isbeing attacked for. He believed the US betrayed him with a promise to keep out of his annexation of Kuwait. The US believes he betrayed them by defying an order to keep out. If there was not a deliberate attempt to ditch him then, it was probably a case of departments themselves believing different things which of course could never happen in Iraq, so it looked to him like he was lied to.
It reminds me of the old John Wayne films where Wayne (of all people!) would be risking his life to save the villain caught in the act from a lynch mob, even knowing he's bribed and terrified the jury into letting him off " 'Cause the Law is the Law". Saddam is as guilty as hell but he's far from the only one and once the principal of barging in without authority is established, it's one step to another informal coalition to contain the threat to world cultural independence.

Caesariensis.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"jlasalle" <jlasalle@sbcglobal.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:37:42 -0600

haha. Rainbow gatherings! Where they all get naked and sit in a peace
circle. Naked harry unwashed crystal stroking bunny hugging hippies, naked,
in a circle. I think Saddam needs to participate in a peace circle. He needs
to feel the love. Unfrotunately for him, all a peace sign will mean is a
B-52 in the winner's circle!

The LaSalle Law Office
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and
confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or
entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received
this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using
the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the
original message to the sender. Thank you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher L. Wood [mailto:xwood@usa.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:28 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House


You mean the Rainbow gatherings people? They're harmless!

-----Original Message-----
From: jlasalle [mailto:jlasalle@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 March, 2003 19:42
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Latest press conference from the White House


...
Saskwatch fits into to all of this, but all furry ape-like creatures running
naked thru our national parks must certainly be regarded with suspicion.
...




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman List
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:12:27 -0500 (EST)

Citizen Loos;

I do not dispute your "right" to post here on the war, rather, I have
made comments about my view of those arguments, as is my "right" to do.

I would suppose, as others have said, that all who post here, have thier
own ideas and opinions of this war, and there is little doubt that
opinions offered by those who do not have all the perntinent information
will not change anyone's mind.

Additionally there are other lists dedicated to that very effort.

I have joined and been a part of Nova Roma for sometime now, and I have
not been so engaged to discuss current items of interest, but rather
Roman Ideas. I do not understand why anyone should feel compelled to
discuss thier fears and anxities here. What will come will come, and
there is little anyone on this list can do about it.

It is true that the U.S. faces a significant danger now, but no less so
a potential than any country whose religious beliefs are not devoted to
Islam, and even then, the followers of Muslim beliefs have been clearly
shown that they are endangered if they happen to be in the wrong place
at the wrong time. However, there are other mediums than this list who
do a much better job of discussing those elements and arguments, with
much more accuracy than most on this this.

However, the threat we face is not on the internet, but rather in the
real world, and a rehashing of fears on this net helps no-one. As
Senator Julianus has said, "--------the DELETE button is your best
friend in such a situation."

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Quinquatrus
From:	Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius <romalist2@yahoo.ca>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:03:10 -0800 (PST)

Hey folks! It's the first day of the Quinquatrus!
Hail Minerva the wise!

Valete!

=====
Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] RE: Wars of liberation
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:39:18 -0500

It is important to remember that most of the U.S.A.'s former enemies in Europe and Central America are not our economic and political allies. Many of Rome's former enemies became strong provinces in the Republic and Principate. Even the barbarians who later wanted into the Empire were more interested in getting a 'piece of the action' rather than bringing down the whole system.

F Gal Aur Sec

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Forum Romanum
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:42:02 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I was just checking out the calender in Forum Romanum chat and I did
not see any market day posted for this month or last month. Since
I've been away a lot the last three months I was wondering if I
missed a new way of announcing the market day chat. Any ideas?

Valete bene - Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] RE: Wars of liberation
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:06:03 EST

Salvete
> Rome had the fortune to be surrounded by people who wanted to be PART
> of Rome. I repeat PART. They were dazzled by the Empire's lifestyle, its
> army
> its laws, its, dare I say it, civilization. However, there were some who
> were not dazzled nor did they want to be part of the Roman Empire, and they
> clung to their old ways. After all their civilizations predated Rome's by
> several centuries. They also gave the Romans the most problems. I am
> talking about Persia.
>
> These were first ruled by Arsacid Parni (Parthian) dynasty, then later the
> Sassanians. Parthian armies destroyed a Roman Consul and his army, (no
> mean feat!) gave the great Marcus Antonius of Cleopatra fame a terrible
> time, even the outstanding conqueror Trajanus, he of the column, the victor
> over Dacia could not bring the Parthians to terms. In fact he died,
> exhausted, from his wars with them.
>
> The Sussanian dynasty was a much tougher replacement for the Arsacids in
> the second century CE. They saw themselves as the legitimate successor to
> the Persian Empire of Cyrus, Darius and Xerxes. The Persians waged almost
> continuous war against the Romans in Asia Minor, to reclaim their lost
> lands. In the next three centuries they destroyed several Roman armies,
> capturing one emperor, killing another. In fact they would continue to
> give the later Eastern Empire, the Byzantines, trouble until the Arabs and
> their converts to Islam toppled them in the 600s. It is those Arab
> descendants who are the same people we face today in Iraq and Iran.
>
> So, it would appear the Roman solution was a non solution since neither
> dynasties wanted Roman civilization, and Rome's "diplomacy" of waging war
> to bring them into line, turned out to be an abject failure

Just wanted to set the record straight.

Q. Fabius Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] On the realms of murderer Belona (was Re: War, NR and this li...
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:20:55 EST

In a message dated 3/19/03 6:28:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
optio456@yahoo.com writes:


> Saddam gassed thousands of Iranians and Kurds with tools so repugnant that
> he deserves what is coming.

Ummm that was the Iranians. I was working at CNN at the time. The gas used
was a persistent that was not given to the Iraqis but was in the Iranian
stockpile. Saddam
did put down the Kurd rebellion, rather harshly after '91 but that was with
US and Turkish
support, in otherwords they stood by and did nothing.
One of the interesting by products of this war will be the question of the
Kurds.
Where are they going to go? Turkey wants them exterminated, Iraq wants them
gone,
Iran denied them entrance, and will do so during this war. The North of Iraq
is their temporary homeland, but the Turks may take advantage of this war to
invade and annex the area. I still hope Saddam abdicates. No shame in that
facing such a large force. Most of my Iraq friends here in L.A hope he does
the same.

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"William Rogers" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:01:30 -0000

Let me begin by stating I have NO PERSONAL reason to dislike the
author of the below note...I am sure they are a kind, gentle, and
caring person...but having talked to some relatives who are in DC and
work for a 3-lettered department, I must comment a bit.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus"
<ahenobarbus@h...> wrote:
>
> Still, it gives serious concern to see the questionably elected
leader of a democracy giving an ultimatum as a precursor to an
unprovked attack on another nation.
*****George H. W. Bush was legally elected, per the US Constitution.
And what's more, when the 5 newspaper recounts were finished, Bush
actually won by even more votes than are shown in the official
results. Also, the United States of America is NOT a Democracy, it is
a REPUBLIC...a MASSIVE diffrence!


The whole comic opera of rallying other nations to assist
> us in our "liberation" of Iraq has pretty much come to nothing.
*****Not true. as of this morning (3/19/2003, 8am est) thirty (30)
nations besides the United States are going in to Liberate. What else
would you call it when you remove someone who kills like Joseph
Stalin and Adolph Hitler did, and ignored SEVENTEEN (17) other,
earlier United Nations resolutions?!? Who cares what a backward
sliding France thinks? Heck, ENGLISH is universally accepted across
the world as THE main business language, NOT French I might add.

The tenuous alliance was starting to fall apart as Blair's government
starts to revolt against foreign adventurism and the President's own
father advised Junior to seek a multilateral solution to the problem
of Iraq.
*****You obviously did not hear about the MASSIVE support Parliment
gave Blair yesterday...yes 43 percent of his party votes yes to
the "stop the war" vote, the everyone else (almost) voted for it.


Two tired former empires do not make a broad coalition.
(See above, 30 nations. Also if you think the United States of
America is tired, you are blind. We STILL lead the world, and will
continue to do so for the forseeable future)


It has also fallen from public conscience that at one point the
very fundamental materials needed for producing the dread weapons of
mass destruction (our nominal causus belli)were given to Iraq by none
other than the Western powers.
****We then refer you BACK to the SEVENTEEN U.N. resolutions.


One can only hope and pray for a quick decisive war, followed by an
opportunity to focus on the long neglected domestic affairs.
*****We in the U.S. DO need to focus on some domestic issues, like
arresting the Democrats in Chicaho who illegally had over 1,000 DEAD
people vote for Gore in the last election, and removing the illegal
aliens in this nation, so jobs can be had by those who were born
here, or are here legally!

Oh, by the way, who's going to pay for this adventure? Who will
profit?
*****The Iraqui people will profit. They will be able to select a
style of government they choose, and elect or make King whom THEY
choose, and determine THEIR collective idea of a nation, and who
cares who pays? You can't take the money with you after you die. I
say we need to help others, and die dirt poor.

The sticky hands of Halliburton and its subsidiary Kellog Brown and
Root are conveniently everywhere in the plans to rebuild a shattered
nation. I wonder whose suggestion that was?
****Don't know, it would be interesting to see who actually does the
work, and how they are selected, I must admit.

> 48 hours til the dawn of Empire...
****The American empire went out soon after Teddy Roosevelt left
office according to my History professors at Penn State.

Just a few personal views,


Publius Tarquitius Rufus
"American by birth, Southern by the Grace of God"

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Roma_Aeterna?=
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:06:21 +0100

Respectable Caius Tarquitius,
I fear I sent many messages to a wrong adress. So I use your post to
ask you to contact me as I would like to buy some of the marvellous
items you sell on your site.
I beg evry citizens' pardon for using the main list but I really don't
know how to reach Caius Tarquitius.
Basically, I would like to know prices in Eueo, and most of all how to
pay,
Bene vale
Gallus Solaris Alexander

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NR list and war
From:	casca@post.com
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:32:18 -0500

Salve Decius Iunius Palladius

I greet you as a Citizen to both a Citizen and Praetor, however I feel you are wrong.

> Discussion of the war has remained relatively calm and I am not
> disappointed with the deportment of our citizens in this forum so
> far.

On the contrary, discussion has been both heated, and at times quite offensive. If you are not cognizant of this, please reread all email to the main list for the period of the last 36-hours.

>As praetores we have elected to have a relatively hands off
> policy this year, allowing the citizens to choose what topics are
> discussed in this forum and the direction those discussions take. I
> am convinced it is a wise choice.

In most cases I agree.

This is not one of those "most cases", though, and I would recommend that, as you state below, the praetores have the power to regulate discussion, the praetores might also find it in their power to make a discussion list separate from the main list to let cives discuss and argue their views among themselves.

As has been stated repeatedly here, Nova Roma is a macronation. It is not part - thank the gods - of the United Nations, nor does it supply troops (as a macronation) to any side of this war.

These discussions, and in some cases recriminations, should not be a part of this main list.

> As praetores though, we retain the power to regulate discussion on
> this list, though I hope that remains unecessary.

I saved this for last, as you apparently do *not* regulate - in any form - discussion on this list.

It has been repeadedly asked that replies be <snipped> for the sake of brevity. During the past 24-hours one citizen, using his "LaSalle" email address, has repeatedly and blatently spammed this list with his "signature", which is both inane and an advirtisement for his law office.

When replies, to replies, to replies of his email gather, that signature alone can fill up a mail box.

Yet last evening, he constantly sent one line messages, knowing that his "spam" would come with each and every one.

Praetores, it might behoove you to start that "regulation" you blandly speak about.

Vale

Gaius Ursus Casca
Roman Citizen

--
__________________________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latest press conference from the White House
From:	Charlie Collins <cotta@spamcop.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:41:57 -0600

About the following:

> The sticky hands of Halliburton and its subsidiary Kellog Brown and
> Root are conveniently everywhere in the plans to rebuild a shattered
> nation. I wonder whose suggestion that was?

Both CNN and FOX have reported France has over 60 _BILLION_ dollar's
invested in Iraq(most of it in the Oil business). That's
why they are against a war.


Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
Mac OSX iChat/AIM: WyrdCharlie

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:52:11 -0800

Ave,

www.kfi640.com had an interesting breakdown on the relationship between Iraq and France. If anyone is interested it can be viewed at that link.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Collins
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latest press conference from the White House


About the following:

> The sticky hands of Halliburton and its subsidiary Kellog Brown and
> Root are conveniently everywhere in the plans to rebuild a shattered
> nation. I wonder whose suggestion that was?

Both CNN and FOX have reported France has over 60 _BILLION_ dollar's
invested in Iraq(most of it in the Oil business). That's
why they are against a war.


Sextus Cornelius Cotta

--
Mac OSX iChat/AIM: WyrdCharlie

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Thoughts on those who serve...
From:	Pipar - Steven <catamount_grange@inwave.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:55:15 -0600

Salvete,

I have my opinions and thoughts on the ongoing macronational fracas, but this is not the proper
place...

In effort of amicitia to all parties, I should like to present two poems I wrote about service. The
first is to those who don their country's uniform. The second is to those who stay home.

A friend once related that a Lakota Sioux relative of his said the Warrior is one who bears the
"Burden" of protecting his community's life and ways. This was written for a ritual I gave to honor
those who have served, which I performed on the US Veterans' day in 2001.

On Those Who Bore the Burden - 11 November 2001

To those who have, the Burden borne
For Folk and Land, and Honor's sake
We give our thanks, on Holy Day
Remembrance of, the Duty done

In cold and rain, through coal black night
In heat and wind, neath furnace sun
The Warrior, is always there
To stand and watch, o'er Home and Hearth

When bugles blare, sounding the Charge
They go to fight, and perhaps, die
Beating back fear, and going forth
Tis duty done, tis duty done

And if they fall, in faring forth
They're laid to rest, by friend or foe
With solemn nod, and solemn word
And then, perhaps, with solemn Call

After Duty, is fairly done
They venture Home, to Kin embrace
Sometimes to cheers, sometimes quiet
This lessens not, their Honored Name

And in their work, after service
They still guard weal, by building lives
By building homes, and families
Continuing, continuing

We who live free, because of them
Who sacrificed, and bled, and wept
Who duty did, and honor gained
Recall their Deeds, recall their Names

To those who have, the Burden borne
For Folk and Land, and Honor's sake
We give our thanks, on Holy Day
Remembrance of, the Duty done

I wrote this poem in response to a friend. He had tried to enlist in the military after the attacks
of September 11th 2001, but was physically unqualified.

To All Who Serve - 15 September 2001

Warrior stands, twixt home and foe
The shining edge, of Tribal Might
Bearing the brunt, of duty's load
His blood and bone, is safety's ward

Under Land Bond, he Steading guards
Under Kin Oath, he Hearth defends
Wrecking vengeance, stopping attack
Community's fist, community's shield

Behind him stands, a long broad line
Seamstress, cobbler, armorer, smith
Farmer, baker, brewer and cook
Teamster, joiner, all Trades and Crafts

Without the Folk, no duty starts
Without the Folk, no arms to bear
Without the Folk, no meals to eat
Without the Folk, no shirts to don

Those who, do stay, within the garth
To build and sow, to sew and teach
Give to the edge, a purpose true
And welcome home, once strife is done

Each sword, does shield, a thousand folk
Some aware of, the Burden borne
By warriors, who do well serve,
But not alone, all work serves too

For without Folk, what is a man
But creature poor, and sore bereft
Of Clan and Hearth, of Homely things
Provided by, their efforts good

And so I say, to those who would
Take up the Sword, strap on the Shield
And find that no, Warband will take
Build up the Home, Build up the Folk

These precious things, made by your hands
Your toothsome foods and goodly drink
Your weapons bright and warwains strong
Give tools and might, to those who guard

For you who work, do serve Folk well
There is Honor, in scrape of rake
in hammer's swing, and steaming pot
In all these things, is Lifeworth, too

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Civis Nova Romana et Paterfamilias
Legatus Occidentalis pro Magna Lacus

Domus Familias
http://www.geocities.com/gens_ulleria/index.html

Dominus Sodalis
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq/

Rubigo numquam dormit!
(Rust never sleeps!)

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latest press conference from the White House
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:56:55 -0800 (PST)

President Charic and his top advisers refer to the
United States as a Hyper Power, something beyond even
the customary name of a Super Power. They fear the
concept of American dominance, even if it's a rather
benign dominance, and were attemptting to establish
the United Nations as a check apon the United States
power.

President Bush's assertation of American Sovereignty
in the matter of deciding when the United States will
or will not make use of it's armed forces was a major
setback for President Chirac's aims, turning his
blocking of a resoulation authorizing armed force into
a Pyrrhic victory.

--- Charlie Collins <cotta@spamcop.net> wrote:
> About the following:
>
> > The sticky hands of Halliburton and its
> subsidiary Kellog Brown and
> > Root are conveniently everywhere in the plans to
> rebuild a shattered
> > nation. I wonder whose suggestion that was?
>
> Both CNN and FOX have reported France has over 60
> _BILLION_ dollar's
> invested in Iraq(most of it in the Oil business).
> That's
> why they are against a war.
>
>
> Sextus Cornelius Cotta
>
> --
> Mac OSX iChat/AIM: WyrdCharlie
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] NR list and war
From:	"jlasalle" <jlasalle@sbcglobal.net>
Date:	Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:58:58 -0600

Ave Casca

I'm not a computer geek. If my law office's e-mail signature offends you,
too bad. Some of us work for a living. Your comment that it is "inane" does
not apply. Nor do I see its value as an advertising tool, as I practice
violent crime criminal trial law, at the state level. My state. People post
their roman orientated for-profit sites in here shamelessly all the time.
Citizens ask for advice for for-profit endeavors daily. I do not seek
business in any way from this list. However, if you have been charged with a
crime, or are under investigation by law enforcement in relation to a felony
charge, I urge you to call:
The LaSalle Law Office(Visa and mastercard accepted)
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
(816).471.8412(Fax)
The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and
confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or
entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received
this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using
the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the
original message to the sender. Thank you.
-----Original Message-----
From: casca@post.com [mailto:casca@post.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:32 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] NR list and war


Salve Decius Iunius Palladius

I greet you as a Citizen to both a Citizen and Praetor, however I feel you
are wrong.

> Discussion of the war has remained relatively calm and I am not
> disappointed with the deportment of our citizens in this forum so
> far.

On the contrary, discussion has been both heated, and at times quite
offensive. If you are not cognizant of this, please reread all email to the
main list for the period of the last 36-hours.

>As praetores we have elected to have a relatively hands off
> policy this year, allowing the citizens to choose what topics are
> discussed in this forum and the direction those discussions take. I
> am convinced it is a wise choice.

In most cases I agree.

This is not one of those "most cases", though, and I would recommend that,
as you state below, the praetores have the power to regulate discussion, the
praetores might also find it in their power to make a discussion list
separate from the main list to let cives discuss and argue their views among
themselves.

As has been stated repeatedly here, Nova Roma is a macronation. It is not
part - thank the gods - of the United Nations, nor does it supply troops (as
a macronation) to any side of this war.

These discussions, and in some cases recriminations, should not be a part
of this main list.

> As praetores though, we retain the power to regulate discussion on
> this list, though I hope that remains unecessary.

I saved this for last, as you apparently do *not* regulate - in any form -
discussion on this list.

It has been repeadedly asked that replies be <snipped> for the sake of
brevity. During the past 24-hours one citizen, using his "LaSalle" email
address, has repeatedly and blatently spammed this list with his
"signature", which is both inane and an advirtisement for his law office.

When replies, to replies, to replies of his email gather, that signature
alone can fill up a mail box.

Yet last evening, he constantly sent one line messages, knowing that his
"spam" would come with each and every one.

Praetores, it might behoove you to start that "regulation" you blandly
speak about.

Vale

Gaius Ursus Casca
Roman Citizen

--
__________________________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup