Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The war of spam
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sat, 22 Mar 2003 18:56:21 -0500

On Sat, Mar 22, 2003 at 04:31:27PM -0600, Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
>
> I do not support or condone censorship except in the cases of spam
> or denial of service attacks (aka "flooding"). Free speech is a
> fundamental human right and may not be trifled with.

That last sentence should be carved in glowing electrons on the virtual
wall of this place.

> As odious as the current "discussion" is, I believe it should be
> allowed to continue.
>
> For my part, I will simply delete the messages of jingoistic morons
> without reply. There's nothing to be gained by wasting time with
> an argument here.

And that closely parallels my own take on the discussion. To quote a
better Latinist than I am,


FLAMMIFERIS CIBUM NOLITE DARE
-- L. Suetonius Nerva

(Loosely translated from "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS".)


Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
Through unity the small thing grows, through disunity the largest thing crumbles.
-- Sallust, "Jugurtha"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	22 Mar 2003 21:01:18 -0300

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 18:39, L. Sicinius Drusus escreveu:
> My Impression is there was a degree of "Freedom of
> Speech" prior to the time of Marius and Sulla, but it
> existed in a negative sense rather than being
> considered a right. The Senate could and did ban
> speech on certain topics from time to time. You could
> still speak out on other topics, not as a "right" but
> simply because the Senate didn't bother to ban them.
> Any "Freedom of Speech" that existed was more because
> of a lax attitude among the Senate when the State
> wasn't in danger than anything else.
>

In my mail still quoted below I said "freedom fo Speech was tolerated"
^^^^^^^^^

> --- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > M. Villius, I dont know about you, but when I have
> > read Livy I recall a number of examples when freedom
> > of speech was not allowed. Just off the top of my
> > head was the crack down on the Bacchanlian cult and
> > the burning of those books and followers of that
> > sect were persecuted. And this was during Cato the
> > Censor's time (about 180 bce).
> >

That is a religious issue and yes there was no Freedom of Cult.
Religion was a state matter and not free. Gods had to be adopted
officially by the state.

BTW the abrevation for Manius is M'. M. stands for Marcus

Manius Villius Limitanus

> > Fabius, I don 't agree with you for the middle
> > republic: Before the
> > murder of the Grachii, freedom of speech was
> > tolerated, if not they
> > would never have been elected.
> > Cato the elder was quite disturbing with Carthado
> > delenda est and was
> > free to speak even in a time of strong comercial
> > colaboration with
> > Carthage. etc.
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus
> >
> > --
> > Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Comparing Ancient Roman Events to Today's
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	22 Mar 2003 21:29:59 -0300

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 17:34, Quintus Lanius Paulinus escreveu:
> > Its is quite interessant, but I don't think that it bears any
> > resemblance with what is going on today.
> >
> > What we see today is much closer to Caesar's Ponthian campaign.
> > You know: Veni,Vidi,Vici.
> >
> > At that point the Republic was very close to the Empire, just
> another
> > World War away.
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michel Loos <loos@q...>
>
> Salve Mani Villi,
>
> Your point is well taken but I was thinking in terms of comparing
> the "shock value" of Teutoburg to the people of Rome at that time and
> the "shock" compared to that of the USA on Sept. 11. Both
> institutions were comfortable in their situations but they recieved
> an ugly lesson of just how vunerable they could be.
>

No TV, no radio, no press, the shock on the Romans was not so strong and
the answer to calm it was quite interresting:
Cut of a part of Belgica and transform it in 2 Germanias. This way
the romans, out of the power circle, thought that Germania was
effectivelly conquered.

Manius Villius Limitanus


--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:47:29 EST

In a message dated 3/22/03 12:57:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
loos@qt1.iq.usp.br writes:


> Fabius, I don 't agree with you for the middle republic: Before the
> murder of the Grachii, freedom of speech was tolerated, if not they
> would never have been elected.
>

It was tolerated because they had a strong following. Even the out spoken
demagogue could get away with it, if he had a large following. During the
second Punic war, the Senate
suspended the constitution after Trasimeno. The danger to the Republic from
external forces was that great.
Most here know I'm outspoken critic of the war. But I still took an oath to
the United States
and if I was called back, I'd serve in that war. That's what taking an oath
is all about. But calling those who are against the war unpatriotic is a
little much.

Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Record of Sale
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 22 Mar 2003 17:55:27 -0800 (PST)

Salve,

Being a slave in Roma wasn't always a hopeless
postion, and this was even more true if you were the
Emperor's slave. Manumission was common, and would
bring the benifits of becomming a citizen and a client
of the Emperor. Attempting to purchase your freedom
instead of awaiting Manumission could be viewed as not
trusting the Emperor's genorisity, a dangrous postion
under some of the Princeps.

Ownership of slaves by wealthy Imperial Slaves and
Freedmen was very common in the Imperial period.

--- Christine Schofield <pompeii@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I have just been reading a newspaper report about an
> inscribed wooden
> tablet at the Museum of London. The wax coating has
> worn away, but faint
> outlines of the inscribed text could still be seen
> on the wood via
> infra-red imaging.
>
> It reads: "Vegetus, assistant slave of Montanus, the
> slave of the August
> Emperor, has bought the girl Fortunata, by
> nationality a Diablintian,
> for 600 denarii. She is warranted healthy and not
> liable to run away".
>
> I know that educated slaves could aspire to great
> wealth and influence,
> but I had not thought in terms of slaves owning
> slaves. Does anyone know
> if this was a common occurrence?
>
> 600 denarii seems quite a substantial sum. I would
> have thought that
> anyone having that much wealth at his disposal would
> have been looking
> primarily to secure their own freedom. Or would
> there have been any
> advantage in remaining a slave in a powerful
> position as opposed to
> being a not so important freedman?
>
> I would be interested if anyone could tell me more
> about this.
>
> Valete,
>
> Gaia Flavia Aureliana
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release
> Date: 17/03/2003
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Record of Sale-Slavery
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:56:17 EST

In a message dated 3/22/03 3:32:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pompeii@tiscali.co.uk writes:


> for 600 denarii

That's a lot of bread. She must have had some importance to purchased for so
much.

Slaves certainly could own slaves. Tullius talks about one such instance as
one of his examples, though I can't remember the exact reference.
Remember, slavery in Rome is different then that in the Antebellum South.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] New Greek History Course at the Academia
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:35:58 +0100 (CET)

Gnaeus Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

It is my pleasure to inform you about the opening of a new Academia
course: the Greek History Course.

You might ask: "What is a Greek History Course doing in Nova Roma?".
Well, to all those whose favourite Latin phrase is "Graecus non
legitur", I would like to remind you that a basic understanding of
Greek history is essential to actually understand the history of Rome,
since Rome's world and Rome herself were heavily influenced by Greek
culture.

I think that this is an excellent opportunity to delve into a
fascinating subject and to truly understand some aspects of our common
heritage as Romans and, to some extent, Greeks.

The course will begin on April the 21st, and it will last until June
the 22nd. Student subscriptions are accepted from this very moment; you
just need to be a citizen of Nova Roma to apply.

The course will be imparted by Caius Curius Saturninus, the Academia's
procurator and praeses triumvirati, so you can be sure that much care
and devotion have been put into it. I am sure that it will be worth the
effort.

So visit the Academia website at:
http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/
and subscribe today!

The glory of Ancient Greece is waiting for you.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
PRAETOR·ET·SENATOR
TRIVMVIR·ACADEMIAE
LICTOR·CVRIATVS

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versión GRATIS
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 02:34:23 -0000

Gregory Rose S.P.D.

As I only yesterday applied for citizenship in Nova Roma, I was
hesitant to
enter the controversy this thread has produced. However, as a historian
I think I can provide some background on the question of free speech in
classical Rome. While the extant sources are sparse the earlier one
looks,
there appears to have been little official suppression of speech in the
earlier republic, the period of the decemviri excepted. It is first
with the
unofficial violence of the senatorial class against the Gracchi and
then the
Senatus Consultum Ultimum that a period of varying degrees of official
suppression of free speech began, including the Marian/Cinnan and Sullan
proscriptions, which culminated in the proscriptions of Caesarean
adherents by the Boni after the refusal to allow C. Julius Caesar to stand
for the consulship in absentia. After his victory in the Civil War
Caesar appears to have been extremely careful to tolerate, and at some
points, encourage the free expression of opinion. Proscription returned
after the formation of the second Triumvirate and continued past the
ultimate victory of Augustus. However, after 22 B.C.E. Augustus seems to
have encouraged relatively free speech at least among the senatorial and
equestrian classes, although memory of the period of the civil wars tended
to inhibit it. It is with the reign of Tiberius that public
opposition of any
sort resulted in official suppression (although there were issues and
individuals toward which Tiberius was relatively tolerant of dissent).
The
restriction of opposition appears to have been relaxed a bit early in the
reign of Caligula, although vigorously reinstated in 39 C.E. Claudius
tended
to be relatively tolerant of dissent, although coercive measures became
more common later into his reign after the discovery of assassination
plots,
and in the reign of Nero the level of tolerated dissent varied with
internal
struggles within the imperial family and among imperial advisors. This
summary is, perforce, very, very sketchy and our knowledge of the
specifics of
political discourse is largely limited by the nature of the sources to
the political elite. In general the repression of dissenting
political speech
in the republic began in earnest with the socio-economic and political
crises of the late second century B.C.E. and continued with significant
interludes of relative toleration through the end of the Julio-Claudians.
In the late republic there was also at least as much danger to free speech
from private violence as from official sanction as street violence became
a fixture of political life; this, of course, also had an inhibitory
effect on political discourse.

Vespasian encouraged greater senatorial and equestrian participation in
government and, as a consequence, was generally tolerant of dissent which
did not threaten the imperial institution, but I'll stop with the the
first of the Flavians, else this posting will become intolerably long.

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose
(who has not yet received admission in the gens to which he has applied
and, thus, does not yet have a Novaroman name)

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Record of Sale-Slavery
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:21:31 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/22/03 3:32:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> pompeii@t... writes:
>
>
> > for 600 denarii
>
> That's a lot of bread. She must have had some importance to
purchased for so
> much.
>

I'd say so, I roughly calculate that to be about $20,000 (give or
take since I'm guestimating a few centuries of inflation). She must
have been of exceptional beauty to command such a high price.

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:28:46 EST

In a message dated 3/22/03 6:39:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, gfr@intcon.net
writes:


> While the extant sources are sparse the earlier one
> looks, there appears to have been little official suppression of speech in
> the
> earlier republic, the period of the decemviri excepted. It is first
> with the unofficial violence of the senatorial class against the Gracchi
> and
> then the Senatus Consultum Ultimum that a period of varying degrees of
> official
> suppression of free speech began, including the Marian/Cinnan and Sullan
> proscriptions.
>

You forgot the post L. Trasimeno SCs passed by the Senate, to regulate the
populace.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Record of Sale
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 02:58:42 -0000

Gregory Rose Gaiae Flaviae Aurelianae salutem dicit.

> I have just been reading a newspaper report about an inscribed wooden
> tablet at the Museum of London. The wax coating has worn away, but faint
> outlines of the inscribed text could still be seen on the wood via
> infra-red imaging.

If you could relate the dating of the tablet, it might be possible to
bring epigraphic evidence
to explicate the text more thoroughly than to simply note that the
purchase of slaves by
slaves was a not uncommon phenomenon; also there are periods in which
the diplomatic "servus Augusti" was used self-referentially even by
imperial freedmen, who were, of course, free at law and citizens; it
also occurs occasionally in inscriptions involving the imperial
cultus, although more commonly as "servus divi Augusti" (my copies of
the CIL and RIB are at the office and the Epigraphische Datenbank
Heidelberg search utility appears to be down at the moment, so I can't
provide exact references presently).

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 05:04:20 -0000

Gregory Rose Q. Fabio Maximo salutem dicit.

> You forgot the post L. Trasimeno SCs passed by the Senate, to
regulate the
> populace.

Actually I was distinguishing between temporary, panicked measures
taken in the aftermath of a military catastrophe with ultimately
little constitutional consequence and the kind of fundamental
political changes which the late second century B.C.E. crises
inititated. Plutarch's account of Q. Fabius Maximus' policy conflict
with his own Master of the Horse and the emergence of senatorial
opposition to the prisoner exchange suggests that the post-Trasimene
SC wasn't enforced all that vigorously. Furthermore the ability of
Metilius to incite the population to limit Fabius' dictatorship argues
that what Plutarch describes as the fear of the people to speak in
opposition to Fabius was overcome by an effective tribune's oratory
(and not merely by virtue of tribunal immunity) . Certainly you are
right to point out that the post-Trasimene measures were a repression
of dissent, but that repression of dissent is, I think, a much more
complicated and far less clear matter than the anti-Gracchan SCU, and
there is some merit in Plutarch's suggestion that Fabius' own conduct
was more effective in overawing popular dissent than any other measures.

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 05:15:25 EST

In a message dated 3/22/03 10:15:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, gfr@intcon.net
writes:
> Certainly you are right to point out that the post-Trasimene measures were a
> repression of dissent, but that repression of dissent is, I think, a much
> more
> complicated and far less clear matter than the anti-Gracchan SCU, and
> there is some merit in Plutarch's suggestion that Fabius' own conduct
> was more effective in overawing popular dissent than any other measures.
>
> Ave et vale.
>
Salvete
Well the old man had great clout...
I'm sure if our Senate felt as threatened as the old Senate did by the
Gracchan measures
they to would take similar steps. However, even though our constitution
guarantees the right to free speech, there are certain things we do not
consider free. You can mock the consuls all you want, as long has you sign
your name to your lampoon. However, masquerading as another citizen and
engaging in same slander is not allowed.
You cannot insult the Gods of the Roma Religio. You can question their
existence, in a philosophical way, but we are firm on no mockery and no
preaching about converting the state Religio to something else. So that is
not true freedom of speech. Anybody attempting to start a rebellion against
the government of Nova Roma, such as a demogague, is also forbidden.
We have moderation on this Forum. In other words by moderators. Of course
in old Rome there were no moderators, just fear of being overheard, so that
is one advantage of the electronic age.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
(the young one)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 06:16:37 -0000

Gregory Rose Lucio Cornelio Sullae salutem dicit.

Thank you for your kind welcome. I am a historian and palaeographer
whose main research interests are in late classical antiquity and the
early middle ages; over the last decade my research has primarily
concentrated on 10-11th Anglo-Saxon England. I did Roman history as
one of my Ph.D. fields and try to keep up with the literature, but I
haven't published on anything earlier than the mid-4th century C.E.
(re a problem involving Sulpicius Severus' account of the
Romano-British participants in the Council of Rimini in his
_Chronicon_). I'm more likely to be acquainted with the current
literature on classical Latin and Greek palaeography and, to a lesser
extent, epigraphy than any other Roman subfield. The gens to which I
have applied is Iulia and I hope to take the Novaroman name Gaius
Iulius Scaurus (I know that Scaurus isn't an onomastically-documented
cognomen of the Iulii, but the cane to which my arthritis has bound me
makes it apt :-).

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Praetorial Reply
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:03:16 -0000

Gnaeus Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

I have seen on this main list several calls to the praetores
regarding off-topic messages. I am now writing these lines to clarify
my own position as praetor of Nova Roma.

The Constitution of Nova Roma grants every citizen the right to
express his opinion. We, the praetores, think that freedom of speech
is a very important affair in any modern society. We also think that,
by protecting freedom of speech, we are following the Mos Maiorum.

So we do not consider *any* topic to be off-topic on this mailing
list. As long as you behave in a civil manner and do not attack the
dignitas of other citizens, it is your own responsability to choose
which thoughts you want to share with us all on this mailing list.

We do *not* encourage you to talk about macronational politics;
frankly, we all hear enough about that subject through other venues.
Although you are free to do so, remember that it is quite unlikely
that you are going to actually change anyone's mind with a witty
remark on this mailing list; the most probable result is that your
own dignitas as a Roman citizen will suffer.

Most of you are mature adults. You can make your own choices. You
don't need the praetores to tell you what you can say on this mailing
list and what issues are better left for private conversation. Please
act accordingly.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP3TRIB·OVF
PRAETOR

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Call for two Governors (Provincia America
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:21:46 +0100

Ex Officio Consulis Senioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani

Salvete Quirites!

I hereby ask any citizen that want to candidate and fulfil the
requirements below for the Propraetorship of Canada Occidentalis
Provincia and the Praetorship of America Austroccidentalis Provincia
to annonce themselves to me at the above address at the latest at
Tuesday the 25th of March at 20.00 Roma time.

The candidates must fulfil the following requirements:

1. The candidate must have reached 21 years of age. (LEX IUNIA DE
MAGISTRATUUM AETATE)
2. A candidate can be appointed as a Propraetor without having been a
citizen for 6 months, be he/she must have been a citizen for six
months before he/she assumes the office. (LEX VEDIA DE CURSO HONORUM)
3. All Governors must be Assidui ( LEX VEDIA DE ASSIDUI ET CAPITI CENSI).
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: [Latinitas] New Greek History Course at the Academia
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	23 Mar 2003 12:03:49 -0300

Em Sáb, 2003-03-22 às 23:35, Gnaeus Salix Astur escreveu:
> Gnaeus Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> It is my pleasure to inform you about the opening of a new Academia
> course: the Greek History Course.
>
> You might ask: "What is a Greek History Course doing in Nova Roma?".
> Well, to all those whose favourite Latin phrase is "Graecus non
> legitur", I would like to remind you that a basic understanding of
> Greek history is essential to actually understand the history of Rome,
> since Rome's world and Rome herself were heavily influenced by Greek
> culture.
>
> I think that this is an excellent opportunity to delve into a
> fascinating subject and to truly understand some aspects of our common
> heritage as Romans and, to some extent, Greeks.
>
> The course will begin on April the 21st, and it will last until June
> the 22nd. Student subscriptions are accepted from this very moment; you
> just need to be a citizen of Nova Roma to apply.
>
> The course will be imparted by Caius Curius Saturninus, the Academia's
> procurator and praeses triumvirati, so you can be sure that much care
> and devotion have been put into it. I am sure that it will be worth the
> effort.
>
> So visit the Academia website at:
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/
> and subscribe today!
>

It is not listed yet on the open/planned courses pages.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> The glory of Ancient Greece is waiting for you.
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
> PRAETOR·ET·SENATOR
> TRIVMVIR·ACADEMIAE
> LICTOR·CVRIATVS
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Nueva versión GRATIS
> Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más...
> http://messenger.yahoo.es
>
>
> (To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Latinitas-unsubscribe@egroups.com)
> __________________________________
> VIVAT LATINITAS! VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
> __________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Tubilustrium
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:34:11 -0500

23 March X KAL APR NP Dies Religiosus
Tubilustrium
XXIII Martius/March 23: This is the day of the Purification of the Trumpets, held on both XXIII Martius and XXIII Maius. An ewe is sacrificed to sanctify the trumpets used in many of the public rites. It was accompanied by a dance of the Salii. Once again it is a ceremony of purification and preparation for both the coming sacral year and the military campaigning season.

--------
23 March X KAL APR NP Dies Religiosus

The ceremony of the Purification of the Trumpets, held on 23 March, was repeated on 23 May and in both months the following day was marked in the Calendars as QRCF (Quando Rex Comitiavit Fas). A note in the Praenestine calendar records that 23 March was called Tubilustrium because during it 'the trumpets used in the sacred rites are purified in the Hall of the Shoemakers' (in atrio sutorio lustrantur, quibus in sacris utuntur); a ewe lamb was sacrificed. The site of the Hall is not known. The note further describes the Tubilustrium as a festival of Mars, thought Ovid attributes it forti deae, namely Minerva. John Lydus, who mentions the Salian priests, says that the worship was paid to Mars and a goddess called in the Sabine tongue Nerine; she will be Nerio, the alleged wife of Mars. Thus the Tubilustrium developed in the same way as the Quinquatrus.
The nature of the trumpets (tubi) is not clear. They are generally taken to have been ritual instruments (like the sacred ancilia) for use in summoning the assembly on the following day, but presumably the ceremony also involved a symbolic purification of the trumpets of the whole army. Whether any actual military instruments were used or representatives of the army (as the tribuni at the Quinquatrus) were present, we do not know. Another suggestion is that ordinary trumpets were used which then became purified, that is when Ovid says 'lustrantur purae...tubae', the purae is proleptisc. In any case the ceremony was designed to help to make the army fit for war, and many Romans who did not attend it would be reminded of the occasion by seeing the Salii dancing through the streets of the city.

Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic by H.H. Scullard

Mars nos protegas

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Fw: [Explorator] explorator 5.47
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:05:48 -0800

Here is some info about that Roman Tablet.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: David Meadows
To: explorator
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:02 AM
Subject: [Explorator] explorator 5.47



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================================================================
explorator 5.47 March 23, 2003
================================================================
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For your computer's protection, Explorator is sent in plain text
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================================================================
================================================================

Thanks to Arthur Shippee, Bill Kennedy, Bob Heuman, Jeffrey Becker,
Gary Nunn, Hernan Astudillo, Mike Ruggeri, Louis A. Okin, Steve
Rankin, Yonatan Nadelman, Anthony Williams, John McMahon, Leanne
Archer, W. Richard Frahm, John Pearce, Dave Sowdon, and Karl
Wittwer for headses upses this week (a.a.h.i.h.l.n.o.o.)

================================================================
================================================================
AFRICA, EUROPE, AND ASIA
================================================================
The Al Ain excavation continues in Dubai:

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=81479

The first is nice piece (that I missed) on the threat to archaeological sites
in Iraq; the second a similar piece from the Art Newspaper:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/World/iraq_antiquities030310.html
http://81.112.115.148/allemandi/TAN/news/article.asp?idart=10931

More:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_23-3-2003_pg9_14
http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=YYKY1D4SAV3FECRBAELCFFA?type=scienceNews&storyID=2417919
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsdig213183837mar21,0,726498.story?coll=ny-health-headlines
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0319_030319_iraqiantiquities.html
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,919120,00.html

.. and in a semi-similar vein, we've heard of human shields, but howzabout
the use of 'cultural shields':

http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=40537791

The Jehoash inscription suffered some damage this week at the hands
of Israeli police:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/886672.asp
http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0317ancient-tablet17-ONhtml
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/03/17/international1534EST0690.DTL

A late Iron Age bit of "folk art" has been found during hospital
construction in Cambridge:

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/news.asp?sec=1&id=561153

A tablet preserving the records of the sale of a Roman slavegirl
was recently found in London:

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/22/nreci22.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/22/ixhome.html

The Roman mosaics at Brading Roman Villa may have to be reburied if
funds can't be found to preserve them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2856187.stm

A Dark Age Christian cemetery has been found in an English schoolyard:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2860547.stm

The Ayodhya excavation is sparking some violent reactions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/international/asia/14INDI.html

The New York Times has a touristy piece on the Labrang monastery:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/travel/16labrang.html

.. and a art historical/aimed-at-collectors piece on Tang horses:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/21/arts/design/21ANTI.html
================================================================
THE AMERICAS
================================================================
More coverage of the 'collapse' of the Maya:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23311-2003Mar13

John Noble Wilford has written a nice piece on Machu Picchu:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/science/social/18INCA.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/90398.html

Low lake levels in Arizona are revealing settlements of the Salado
people:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0316submergedhistory16.html

A touristy sort of thing on petroglyphs etc. in Saguaro National Park:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/21/travel/21PETR.html

A while ago we heard of the excavation of a 'black-owned' saloon
in Nevada which turned up things like a tabasco bottle ... now we
are getting rather more full coverage:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/884823.asp

The 'traditional' view of the Anasazi is changing:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/5444587.htm
================================================================
ALSO OF INTEREST
================================================================
The latest on the DNA front is searching for the first domesticated
cattle:

http://www.naturalhistory.com/naturalhistory/0203/0203_feature.html

This week, it's the Lebananon Daily Star with a piece on Gertrude Bell
(still looking for a movie!!):

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/features/22_03_03_d.htm

.. and another!:

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100local/page.cfm?objectid=12769642&method=full&siteid=50081

This week's sport-invented-by-an-ancient-culture piece looks at polo,
invented by the Chinese:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200303/18/eng20030318_113530.shtml

A piece on traditional irrigation in the Andes might also be of interest:

http://www.naturalhistory.com/naturalhistory/1102/1002_feature.html

.. as might a piece on the antiquity of 'click languages':

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/science/social/18CLIC.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/90397.html

Coventry is the first place in England to have an "Historic Environment
Record Officer":

http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12766820&method=full&siteid=50003

Is there a secret city beneath Tokyo?:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20030301a1.htm

Charlotte Bronte is out with a new book (!):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/17/arts/17ARTS.html

Humanities magazine has a piece on the search for some lost frescoes
commissioned to accompany the publication of Petrarch's *Lives of
Famous Men*:

http://www.neh.gov/news/humanities/2003-01/frescoes.html
================================================================
ON THE NEWSSTANDS
================================================================
A new issue of British Archaeology:

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba69/index.shtml

.. and Biblical Archaeology Review:

http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/indexBAR.html
================================================================
ON THE WEB
================================================================
Two new sites were brought to my attention this week ...

The Vindolanda Tablets (vols. I and II) are now available online
(wow ... this is what publication of inscriptions should always
be like):

http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk:8080/

. The *Bibliography of Dendrochronology* site also looks like it will be
extremely useful:

http://www01.wsl.ch/dendrobiblio/

Zahi Hawass has recently put up an article on 'Secret Doors Inside
the Great Pyramid' at his own website:

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/articles/secret_doors_inside_the_great_pyramid.htm
================================================================
ON THE ARCHAEOLOGY CHANNEL
================================================================
The Anglo-American Project in Pompeii:

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/
================================================================
CRIME BEAT
================================================================
A copy of the U.S. Bill of of Rights which has been missing for
138 years has been recovered:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/19/bill.of.rights/index.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/887647.asp

Italian police have recovered a stolen ivory face/mask of the god Apollo:

http://tinyurl.com/7zp3
http://ads.guardian.co.uk/html.ng/Params.richmedia=yes&site=Guardian§ion=105600&rand=3656082&location=top
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6155746%255E1702,00.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6155746%255E1702,00.html
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20030319&Category=API&ArtNo=303190934&Ref=AR

The latest on looting in Afghanistan:

http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=32866&SelectRegion=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=AFGHANISTAN
================================================================
AT ABOUT.COM
================================================================
Ancient History Guide N.S. Gill has a piece on the threat to archaeological
sites in Iraq:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa031903a.htm

Similarly, Archaeology Guide Kris Hirst points out the irony (from
an archaeological perspective) of the current conflict:

http://archaeology.about.com/library/weekly/aa031903a.htm
================================================================
BOOK REVIEWS
================================================================
Henry Camen, *Spain's Road to Empire*:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,915697,00.html

Dan Brown, *The DaVinci Code* (fiction):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/17/books/17MASL.html

Michel Chauveau, *Cleopatra: Beyond the Myth*
Maria Wyke, *The Roman Mistress: Ancient and Modern Representation":

http://books.guardian.co.uk/lrb/articles/0,6109,916814,00.html

Ira Berlin, *Generations of Captivity:A History of African-American Slaves*:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/books/review/023DEWLT.html

Jose Carlos Somoza, *The Athenian Murders* (fiction):

http://www.athensnews.gr/athweb/nathens.print_unique?e=C&f=13005&m=A40&aa=3&eidos=S

Alexia Brue, *Cathedrals of the Flesh: My Search for the Perfect Bath*:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,918459,00.html
================================================================
PERFORMANCES
================================================================
Nabucco (New York):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/19/arts/music/19NABU.html

The Emperor's Club (now in Australia):

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/19/1047749822207.html
================================================================
DON'T EAT THAT ELMER (A.K.A. CUM GRANO SALIS)
================================================================
================================================================
EXHIBITIONS
================================================================
In the Time of the Etruscans (UPenn):

http://ae.philly.com/entertainment/ui/philly/miscEvent.html?id=10126&reviewId=6284&category=1
http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/03/19/3e783bbf4b796

Not really an exhibition, but coverage of the European Fine Art
Fair:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/arts/design/18MAAS.html

Sutton Hoo:

http://tinyurl.com/7zpn

Leonardo DaVinci: Master Draftsman:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/22/arts/design/22CONN.html

Triumph of Religion (Boston):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/arts/design/23UNGE.html

Archeologies (Thessaloniki):

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_civ_8748144_21/03/2003_27755

Byzantine Women and their World (Harvard):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/21/arts/design/21COTT.html
================================================================
CLASSICIST'S CORNER
================================================================
In case you missed it, the New York Times had a piece comparing
the Iliad to the current conflict:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/opinion/18KRIS.html

ClassCon in a piece on the ethics of war:

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i28/28b00701.htm

Ted Turner was talking about his Classics degree this week (scroll
right down to the end) ... I'm not sure whether this is a good
thing or a bad thing:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60157-2003Mar20.html

Classicist involvement in protests this week:

http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=10651&repository=0001_article

This looks interesting ... treating the murder of Caesar as a modern
sort of crime scene:

http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12751673&method=full&siteid=50003

Saw this on the Latin list ... Gabriele Albaroas has taken the time
to translate the script of Gladiator into Latin:

http://www.krescendo.com/gladiatorlatin/index.html

Classical Tradition fans will be interested in a piece on Greek Revival
architecture:

http://www.oldhousejournal.com/magazine/2003/february/greek_revival.shtm

The Spectator defies again this a.m. ...

Akropolis News in Classical Greek:
http://www.akwn.net/

Radio Finland's Nuntii Latini
http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/trans.html

Radio Bremen's Der Monatsrückblick - auf Latein
http://www.radiobremen.de/online/latein/

U.S. Weather in Latin:
http://latin.wunderground.com/
================================================================
REPEATS
================================================================
300,000 B.P. Footprints:

http://www.cp.org/english/online/full/science/030312/g031206A.html
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030310/footprint.html

British Mummies:

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F03%2F18%2Fnmummy18.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=300111
http://www.msnbc.com/news/886454.asp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2856399.stm
http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=6294621
================================================================
EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of
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ancient world (broadly construed: practically anything relating
to archaeology or history prior to about 1700 or so is fair
game) and every Sunday they are delivered to your mailbox free of
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Freedom of speech in ancient Rome
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:40:31 -0000

Gregory Rose Q. Fabio Maximo Illustri salutem dicit.

> Salvete
> Well the old man had great clout...
> I'm sure if our Senate felt as threatened as the old Senate did by
the
> Gracchan measures they to would take similar steps. However, even
though our >constitution guarantees the right to free speech, there
are certain things we do not >consider free. You can mock the consuls
all you want, as long has you sign your name >to your lampoon.
However, masquerading as another citizen and engaging in same >slander
is not allowed.You cannot insult the Gods of the Roma Religio. You
can >question their existence, in a philosophical way, but we are firm
on no mockery and no >preaching about converting the state Religio to
something else. So that is not true >freedom of speech. Anybody
attempting to start a rebellion against the government of >Nova Roma,
such as a demogague, is also forbidden.We have moderation on this
>Forum. In other words by moderators. Of course in old Rome there
were no moderators, just fear of being overheard, so that is one
advantage of the electronic age.

Please recall that my all comments on relative periods of freedom for
political dissent are by intention and their nature (and the nature of
some of the sources) directed only to the respublica of Roma Antiqua
and the early Empire, and specifically _not_ to Nova Roma, since they
are in response to a historical question about freedom of political
discourse in Republican and early Imperial Rome. There were also in
Roma Antiqua wide areas of public speech apart from political
discourse which were circumscribed by law and custom in ways
analogous to Novaroman practice: maledictio and impietas were offenses
against the state religion and, until late in Constantine's reign,
prosecutable (more properly charges of maledictio and impietas were
used then to suppress the traditional Religio Romana in favor of
Christianity, and often in episcopal rather than secular courts -- I
don't recall off the top of my head the exact edictum in the
Theodosian Code which cites the Constantinian precident authorizing
bishops to conduct state trials with the same authority as imperial
governors, but I can look it up). Attempts to overthrow the republic
were actionable as maiestas or perduellio, but in both there had to be
an overt act beyond the simple act of dissenting speech for the actio
to prevail in court, and of course there were actiones available for
fraud and slander. Excepting the Sullan constitution, soon abandoned,
the old republic was singularly inept at suppressing demagoguery
except on an ad hoc basis (Saturninus comes to mind). And, of course,
all these actiones aimed at proscribing dissenting discourse or
behaviour could only be brought by private citizens for trial before a
praetor (or iudex depending specifically on the actio), and the most
powerful politicians who proscribed were successful by virtue of
creating a class of delatores -- it was that system of delatores which
chilled dissenting speech most in the later Republic and early
Empire. List moderation is a prudent policy given the venue and
technology of Nova Roma; so long as a class of citizens (delatores)
are not encouraged by a praetor to seduce unwitting citizens into
treasonous private remarks which would then be rapidly brought to the
praetor's ear so that proscription and confiscation could immediately
commence. I suppose that at some point something like that could
happen in Nova Roma, but I doubt it very seriously, because despite
the mythos (and I use that in a good sense) of the state is not
accompanied by real coercive power (nothing much worse can happen to a
citizen who refuses the admonition of the moderator than revocation of
citizenship). Not having the power to pauperize or kill makes the
possibility of actively suppressing dissenting speech in Nova Roma
rather less chilling of dissenting speech than the means at hand for
the leaders of Roma Antiqua. And I have very grave doubts, from what
I've read of Nova Roma and its history, that an elected magistrate
would even think to go down that path, the Civil War notwithstanding.

BTW, when you wrote
> I'm sure if our Senate felt as threatened as the old Senate did by
the
> Gracchan measures they to would take similar steps
I assume that you don't really mean that you would advocate murdering
political opponents, including sacrosanct tribunes and others who had
taken refuge in the sanctuary of temples; after all that was method
the threatened "old Senate" actually used. I write this in pointed
jest (I hope you realize that this is a reductio ad absurdam) to
suggest that the political process is fundamentally different when the
state really possesses the ultimate coercive power.

I am very much enjoying this discussion and thank you for it. Please
also know that I absolutely support the policy of respect for the
Religio Romana as required in Nova Roma (since you've never met me
outside this venue, I can understand if you interpreted my remarks as
having an impious flavour).

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Praetorial Reply
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:54:16 -0000

Gregory Rose Gn. Salici Astri Praetori salutem dicit.

Excellentissime, nobilis Praetor. You bring honour to your magistracy
by doing your
duty.

Ave et Vale.

Gregory Rose

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gods of War / Roman Bridges
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:35:36 -0500 (EST)

My Friends;

--Gods of War:

I thank those who were kind enough to explain the rather murky (to me at
least) comment on the presently occuring conflict in the Near-East. I
cannot say that I agree with the author's thoughts, and from what I see,
niether do the thousands of enemy soldiers who have surrendered or laid
down arms in this same conflict. I was amused by the Iraqui citizen who
removed his shoe and slapped the dictator's poster face with it. Later
I heard a comment from an Iraqui spokesman that someone in opposition to
his views "should have thier shoes removed and be struck in the face
with them."

I am wondering if there is any particular meaning to these related
comments / actions. I know from my experiences with other cultures that
such comments / actions often have a particular meaning within a given
culture that is not clear to those outside of that culture.

My thanks to Pontiff Cincinnatus, with whose comments, I fully agree, as
well as to those who were kind enough to provide a clearly understood
explanation as requested.

Roman Bridges--

According to Spanish authorities there are three bridges, to my
knowledge, in Spain which are of Roman origin. The magnificent
structure in the city of Ronda, which is still in use today for modern
vehicular traffic, and which spans a deep and very narrow gorge which
divides the city. In later years the center of the bridge span, which
is hollow, was used to house prisoners of war, and while we were in
Spain, this space within the bridge was turned into a restaurant, where
my wife and I had dinner one night. I can stongly recommend the
historical flavor and ambiance of the location, if not that of the food
served (Grin!!!!!!!!!).

A second very small Roman Bridge can be found along the main highway
from the town of Puerto De Santa Maria on the Bay of Cadiz to the lovely
city of Jerez De La Frontera (sherry capitol of the world!!). This is a
small Roman bridge over a stream close by the highway. It is no longer
used for modern traffic due to the narrowness of the bridge, but is
still used by farmers in the area to bring in agricultural products by
wagon from outlying fields.

A third bridge is one which spans either the Cardoner or the Llobreget
River (my atlas is not clear on that particular point) near the
"Monasterio de Monserrat" which is about 40 KM Northwest of Barcelona in
the foothlls of the Pyrenees Mtns. This bridge is also in use only by
the local people, a new highway and bridge having been constructed just
dwnstream of the Old Roman bridge. In structure, as I recall, this
bridge is similar to the Roman Bridge, "Ponte Grosso" in the Furlow
Gorge near Urbino, Italy.

The first and second of the above bridges I have made drawings of from
photographs taken when we visited there. The first drawing was done on
a papyrus sheet. Unfortunately, when I lived in Spain, I was not as
deep into Roman Architechture as I am at present, or I should have spent
more effort in getting to know these structures much better. I add my
thanks to those of the others on this list for the posting of this
information, and I would ask my Beneificarius Militarium Pompeia
Cornelia Strabo, to place this Bridge List together with this response
message in the Militarium List Files.

My thanks for your efforts in this area. If you have any further
information regarding these bridges, such as internet sites, local
libraries. museums, or other local information sources, I would be
pleased to have the references.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens;

Praefectus Architechturas / Geographica;
Sodalitas Militarium;
Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Gods of War / Roman Bridges
From:	"jlasalle" <jlasalle@sbcglobal.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:51:54 -0600

Ave Audens

"The magnificent structure in the city of Ronda, which is still in use today
for modern
vehicular traffic, and which spans a deep and very narrow gorge which
divides the city."

This website says the bridge was built 200 years ago, although it looks
Roman to me:

http://www.travelinginspain.com/Ronda.html

GB Agricola
-----Original Message-----
From: jmath669642reng@webtv.net [mailto:jmath669642reng@webtv.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:36 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Gods of War / Roman Bridges


My Friends;

--Gods of War:

I thank those who were kind enough to explain the rather murky (to me at
least) comment on the presently occuring conflict in the Near-East. I
cannot say that I agree with the author's thoughts, and from what I see,
niether do the thousands of enemy soldiers who have surrendered or laid
down arms in this same conflict. I was amused by the Iraqui citizen who
removed his shoe and slapped the dictator's poster face with it. Later
I heard a comment from an Iraqui spokesman that someone in opposition to
his views "should have thier shoes removed and be struck in the face
with them."

I am wondering if there is any particular meaning to these related
comments / actions. I know from my experiences with other cultures that
such comments / actions often have a particular meaning within a given
culture that is not clear to those outside of that culture.

My thanks to Pontiff Cincinnatus, with whose comments, I fully agree, as
well as to those who were kind enough to provide a clearly understood
explanation as requested.

Roman Bridges--

According to Spanish authorities there are three bridges, to my
knowledge, in Spain which are of Roman origin. The magnificent
structure in the city of Ronda, which is still in use today for modern
vehicular traffic, and which spans a deep and very narrow gorge which
divides the city. In later years the center of the bridge span, which
is hollow, was used to house prisoners of war, and while we were in
Spain, this space within the bridge was turned into a restaurant, where
my wife and I had dinner one night. I can stongly recommend the
historical flavor and ambiance of the location, if not that of the food
served (Grin!!!!!!!!!).

A second very small Roman Bridge can be found along the main highway
from the town of Puerto De Santa Maria on the Bay of Cadiz to the lovely
city of Jerez De La Frontera (sherry capitol of the world!!). This is a
small Roman bridge over a stream close by the highway. It is no longer
used for modern traffic due to the narrowness of the bridge, but is
still used by farmers in the area to bring in agricultural products by
wagon from outlying fields.

A third bridge is one which spans either the Cardoner or the Llobreget
River (my atlas is not clear on that particular point) near the
"Monasterio de Monserrat" which is about 40 KM Northwest of Barcelona in
the foothlls of the Pyrenees Mtns. This bridge is also in use only by
the local people, a new highway and bridge having been constructed just
dwnstream of the Old Roman bridge. In structure, as I recall, this
bridge is similar to the Roman Bridge, "Ponte Grosso" in the Furlow
Gorge near Urbino, Italy.

The first and second of the above bridges I have made drawings of from
photographs taken when we visited there. The first drawing was done on
a papyrus sheet. Unfortunately, when I lived in Spain, I was not as
deep into Roman Architechture as I am at present, or I should have spent
more effort in getting to know these structures much better. I add my
thanks to those of the others on this list for the posting of this
information, and I would ask my Beneificarius Militarium Pompeia
Cornelia Strabo, to place this Bridge List together with this response
message in the Militarium List Files.

My thanks for your efforts in this area. If you have any further
information regarding these bridges, such as internet sites, local
libraries. museums, or other local information sources, I would be
pleased to have the references.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens;

Praefectus Architechturas / Geographica;
Sodalitas Militarium;
Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] War Comments (my view)
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:01:18 -0500 (EST)

My Friends;

I too have some very firm beliefs in regard to the present conflict in
the Near East. However, I am not sure that this list is the place to
air them. I am not convinced that I can change anyone's mind with my
views, and I am well aware that opposing views can quickly accelerate
into insult and abuse, as witness the "peace" march in New York
yesterday.

Further, I would not suppose that my personal views are of great intrest
to anyone, and any comments that I might have, very probably pale in
comparison to those comments relating to such a conflict from many
historical figures which are of interest to those on this list.

So, I shall keep my views to myself, and off this list, so as not to
further inflame those whose opinions differ from mine.

While everyone in the U.S. has a right to thier opinion as long as such
a view does not rob the rights of another American, in my view, there
are more appropriate forums for protest and response than this list.

Respectfully;

Jim Mathews

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Record of Sale
From:	"Christine Schofield" <pompeii@tiscali.co.uk>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:59:05 -0000

Salvete,

My thanks to everyone who has responded to my query

> If you could relate the dating of the tablet, it might be possible
to
> bring epigraphic evidence
> to explicate the text more thoroughly than to simply note that the
> purchase of slaves by
> slaves was a not uncommon phenomenon;

The tablet has been dated to between 80 and 120 CE

Valete

Gaia Flavia Aureliana

---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: [Latinitas] New Greek History Course at the Academia
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:39:17 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, M'. Villi.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Michel Loos <loos@q...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> It is not listed yet on the open/planned courses pages.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus

Click on "Syllabus Cursuum" on the left side and you will get there
:-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Praetorial Reply
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:46:29 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli Scaure / Mr. Gregory Rose.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gfrose2000" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> Gregory Rose Gn. Salici Astri Praetori salutem dicit.
>
> Excellentissime, nobilis Praetor. You bring honour to your
> magistracy by doing your duty.
>
> Ave et Vale.
>
> Gregory Rose

Thank you very much for your kind words, sir.

I also take this opportunity to give you a warm welcome to Nova Roma.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Record of Sale
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:01:19 -0000

Gregory Rose S.P.D.

There's a rather nice photographic enhancement of the tablet on the
Museum of London webpage (http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/). Having
taken a good look at it, I have four comments: (1) on the basis of
letter-forms, it looks closer to 80 C.E. than 120 C.E. (although good
arguments for both the terminus a quo and terminus ad quem can be
made); (2) it seems to me more likely, given the syntax of the text,
that Vegetus was an imperial slave subordinated to the imperial slave
Montanus (i.e., as his assistant) rather than the personal slave of
Montanus (although, again, a perfectly respectable argument can be
made for the latter too); (3) the chap who wrote it had a very leaden
hand (this sort of deep impression into the wood is very, very rare in
wax tablets and an extraordinary bit of luck for the archaeologists);
and (4) the story in the Telegraph
(http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/22/nreci22.xml&s
Sheet=/news/2003/03/22/ixhome.html) simply has it wrong in asserting
that slaves could not
own slaves under Roman law.

Ave et vale.

Gregory Rose