Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:01:26 -0500

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 03:23:00PM -0300, Michel Loos wrote:
>
> This list is full of right/ultra-right points of view. I have leftist
> opinions and you should be glad somebody expresses that other point of
> view. That's the way NR can progress.

As long as your expression of "leftist opinions" does not include
anti-US hate rhetoric, I'll have no quarrel with it. Honor the
distinction between disagreeing with a governmental policy and attacking
and insulting the people who live under that government, and I, for one,
will welcome the expression of whatever viewpoint you may hold, however
strongly I may disagree with it.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nam et ipsa scientia potestas es.
Knowledge is power.
-- Sir Francis Bacon


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Sun 23 March Message 18
From:	Joanne Shaver <merlinia@comcast.net>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:25:42 -0500

Salve, Sr.Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus !
Are you indeed looking for a New Govenor for Provincia America
Meditlantica, or is it a Typo?
Juat wondering if I missed something.

Vale!
Merlinia Ambrosia, Legata Nova Caesaria, Medatlantica


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:35:04 -0500

Ave -

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 05:49:08PM -0600, jlasalle wrote:
>
> Scaevola, you can make your point without resorting to personal insults.

You're right, I can - and I believe that I have done so. As you know, I
can aim a personal insult better than just implying it; it should be
obvious that I intended none here. However, I *was* correcting several
inaccurate statements, and mincing words in pointing out that they were
inaccurate would not help but would lead to more confusion.

> I
> myself have made a real effort where this is concerned.

<grin> "Much as it pains me, I agree with Scaevola"...

> Some people, and I
> could be wrong, and I'm sure you'll point it out, react negatively to
> statements like "Your statement has no meaning" or "read your history books
> a little closer".

As it happens, I agree with you - some people _will_ react negatively to
those statements. Those who do either don't last long on mailing lists
or quickly grow a thicker skin; hypersensitivity to offered correction
is a non-survival characteristic on the Internet. When I'm wrong in
something related to, for example, Roman history and someone corrects me
- even roughly - I'll accept that correction. There's a line between
asperity at hearing incorrect information stated as the truth and
outright rudeness, and I certainly do not think that I was rude in my
post.

> Dale Carnegie has a great book on this issue.

I read "HTWF&IP" a long time ago, and found most of the advice in there
manipulative and dishonest at its core. I'm not interested in
"influencing people" by lying to them. "Do what you say; say what you
mean; mean what you do" suits me a lot better than Carnegie's advice.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Amicus verus est rara avis.
A true friend is a rare bird.
-- N/A


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Sun 23 March Message 18
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:05:48 -0500

Salve the message line does say midatlanic but he post it self says

Propraetorship of Canada Occidentalis
Provincia and the Praetorship of America Austroccidentalis Provincia
to annonce themselves to me at the

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joanne Shaver" <merlinia@comcast.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 7:25 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Sun 23 March Message 18

> Salve, Sr.Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus !
> Are you indeed looking for a New Govenor for Provincia America
> Meditlantica, or is it a Typo?
> Juat wondering if I missed something.
>
> Vale!
> Merlinia Ambrosia, Legata Nova Caesaria, Medatlantica
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>
From:	"jlasalle" <jlasalle@sbcglobal.net>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:14:50 -0600

Ave

Scaevola wrote

"I myself have made a real effort where this is concerned.

<grin> "Much as it pains me, I agree with Scaevola"..."

It is a work in progress.

Vale

GB Agricola

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin A. Okopnik [mailto:ben@callahans.org]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 6:35 PM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>

Ave -

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 05:49:08PM -0600, jlasalle wrote:
>
> Scaevola, you can make your point without resorting to personal insults.

You're right, I can - and I believe that I have done so. As you know, I
can aim a personal insult better than just implying it; it should be
obvious that I intended none here. However, I *was* correcting several
inaccurate statements, and mincing words in pointing out that they were
inaccurate would not help but would lead to more confusion.

> I
> myself have made a real effort where this is concerned.

<grin> "Much as it pains me, I agree with Scaevola"...

> Some people, and I
> could be wrong, and I'm sure you'll point it out, react negatively to
> statements like "Your statement has no meaning" or "read your history
books
> a little closer".

As it happens, I agree with you - some people _will_ react negatively to
those statements. Those who do either don't last long on mailing lists
or quickly grow a thicker skin; hypersensitivity to offered correction
is a non-survival characteristic on the Internet. When I'm wrong in
something related to, for example, Roman history and someone corrects me
- even roughly - I'll accept that correction. There's a line between
asperity at hearing incorrect information stated as the truth and
outright rudeness, and I certainly do not think that I was rude in my
post.

> Dale Carnegie has a great book on this issue.

I read "HTWF&IP" a long time ago, and found most of the advice in there
manipulative and dishonest at its core. I'm not interested in
"influencing people" by lying to them. "Do what you say; say what you
mean; mean what you do" suits me a lot better than Carnegie's advice.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Amicus verus est rara avis.
A true friend is a rare bird.
-- N/A


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:29:20 -0500

Ave -

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 07:14:50PM -0600, jlasalle wrote:
> Scaevola wrote
>
> "I myself have made a real effort where this is concerned.
>
> <grin> "Much as it pains me, I agree with Scaevola"..."
>
> It is a work in progress.

...and with a worthy goal at its end. I wish you success in the effort.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
Through unity the small thing grows, through disunity the largest thing crumbles.
-- Sallust, "Jugurtha"


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 02:29:58 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:

> As long as your expression of "leftist opinions" does not include
> anti-US hate rhetoric, I'll have no quarrel with it. Honor the
> distinction between disagreeing with a governmental policy and
attacking
> and insulting the people who live under that government, and I, for
one,
> will welcome the expression of whatever viewpoint you may hold,
however
> strongly I may disagree with it.

Please, I think that since Manius Villius Limitanus has clarified to
beyond my satisfaction (since I started this whole mess) that its
governmental policy of the United States with which he disagrees and
not the people living under the government (some of which share his
disagreement and on some issue that includes myself) to continue to
personal attacks on his political views is not only pointless but
just plain poor manners. I take him at his word and I would hope
that others would do so as well.

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Posting this because it is the right thing to do
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 02:34:30 -0000

Salvete Nova Romans,

I have been emailed privately by Manius Villius Limitanus.
Respecting his privacy I do not include his statements to me only my
response:
<quote>
Salve,

There is need to apologize because of how I used the name. I saw a
program on Che not too long ago on the History Channel. While I may
not agree with the man's politics I do admire his courage and
tenacity. The less than saintly aspects of his personal life (failed
marriage ect) made him seem more human. Something I should remember,
there is a real live flesh and blood human behind the name Manius
Villius Limitanus and are not just a mere name on a machine. You
deserved and deserve far better treatment than I have treated you the
past 24 hours. I sincerely apologize for allowing temporary emotions
to cloud my judgement leading to you becoming a whipping post for my
own frustrations and anger.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
</quote>

Valete,

Q. Cassius Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:47:39 -0500

Ave -

On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 02:29:58AM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > As long as your expression of "leftist opinions" does not include
> > anti-US hate rhetoric, I'll have no quarrel with it. Honor the
> > distinction between disagreeing with a governmental policy and
> attacking
> > and insulting the people who live under that government, and I, for
> one,
> > will welcome the expression of whatever viewpoint you may hold,
> however
> > strongly I may disagree with it.
>
> Please, I think that since Manius Villius Limitanus has clarified to
> beyond my satisfaction (since I started this whole mess) that its
> governmental policy of the United States with which he disagrees and
> not the people living under the government (some of which share his
> disagreement and on some issue that includes myself) to continue to
> personal attacks on his political views is not only pointless but
> just plain poor manners. I take him at his word and I would hope
> that others would do so as well.

If you carefully read what I had written, you will see that it is not an
attack but a statement; one, in fact, that welcomes his viewpoint as
long as _it_ is not an attack. It is also based on my own experience
with Manius Villius Limitanus on this list rather than a followup to
your posts.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes.
It is foolish to fear what you cannot avoid.
-- Cicero, "De officiis"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Anti-Americanism and a reminder (private>
From:	Richard Winter <rwinter@nwlink.com>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:58:27 -0800

:)
dissent in ROME..

Marcus Ritulius Hiberus

We would do well to think of ego-consciousness as being surrounded by a
multitude of little
luminosities...Introspective intuitions ..capture the state of the
unconscious:
The star-strewn heavens, stars reflected in dark water,
nuggets of gold and golden sand scattered in black earth..

and from the medieval alchemists--
"Seminate aurum in terram albam foliatam"----the precious metal strewn
in the layers of white clay,

so perhaps its not about science, or about art,
but about the mind, my mind, any mind,
that turns inward to itself...

Ursula K. LeGuin

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At 09:47 PM 3/24/03 -0500, you wrote:

>Ave -
>
>On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 02:29:58AM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As long as your expression of "leftist opinions" does not include
> > > anti-US hate rhetoric, I'll have no quarrel with it. Honor the
> > > distinction between disagreeing with a governmental policy and
> > attacking
> > > and insulting the people who live under that government, and I, for
> > one,
> > > will welcome the expression of whatever viewpoint you may hold,
> > however
> > > strongly I may disagree with it.
> >
> > Please, I think that since Manius Villius Limitanus has clarified to
> > beyond my satisfaction (since I started this whole mess) that its
> > governmental policy of the United States with which he disagrees and
> > not the people living under the government (some of which share his
> > disagreement and on some issue that includes myself) to continue to
> > personal attacks on his political views is not only pointless but
> > just plain poor manners. I take him at his word and I would hope
> > that others would do so as well.
>
>If you carefully read what I had written, you will see that it is not an
>attack but a statement; one, in fact, that welcomes his viewpoint as
>long as _it_ is not an attack. It is also based on my own experience
>with Manius Villius Limitanus on this list rather than a followup to
>your posts.
>
>
>Vale,
>Caius Minucius Scaevola
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes.
>It is foolish to fear what you cannot avoid.
> -- Cicero, "De officiis"
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/03

----------

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Call for two Governors (Provincia America Boreoccidentalis and
From:	"Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:07:19 -0700

Salvete

I am not sure whether I am correct so I will ask for clarification. The
subject line reads America Boreoccidentalis, but the body says Canada
Occidentalis. Which is correct? If it is Canada Occidentalis, then I wish
to submit my name for consideration. I am only 24, but have been a citizen
for over two years and I am currently the only assidui in the province. I
am also webmaster for our site. A lack of content is holding the site back
as the level of activity has been ridiculously low. I believe I have
learned a lot from Quintus Sertorius, the best governor our province has
had.

If he wishes to resume the governship, then I will withdraw my submission.

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
Paterfamilas- Gens Vipsania, Curator Araneum- Canada Occidentalis

>From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>CC: SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.com, NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com,
>Titus Labienus Fortunatus <labienus@texas.net>
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Call for two Governors (Provincia America
>Boreoccidentalis and Provincia America Mediatlantica)
>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:21:46 +0100
>
>Ex Officio Consulis Senioris Caesonis Fabii Quintiliani
>
>Salvete Quirites!
>
>I hereby ask any citizen that want to candidate and fulfil the
>requirements below for the Propraetorship of Canada Occidentalis
>Provincia and the Praetorship of America Austroccidentalis Provincia
>to annonce themselves to me at the above address at the latest at
>Tuesday the 25th of March at 20.00 Roma time.
>
>The candidates must fulfil the following requirements:
>
>1. The candidate must have reached 21 years of age. (LEX IUNIA DE
>MAGISTRATUUM AETATE)
>2. A candidate can be appointed as a Propraetor without having been a
>citizen for 6 months, be he/she must have been a citizen for six
>months before he/she assumes the office. (LEX VEDIA DE CURSO HONORUM)
>3. All Governors must be Assidui ( LEX VEDIA DE ASSIDUI ET CAPITI CENSI).
>--
>
>Vale
>
>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>Senior Consul et Senator
>Propraetor Thules
>Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
>Civis Romanus sum
>************************************************
>Cohors Consulis CFQ
>http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
>************************************************
>Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
>"I'll either find a way or make one"
>************************************************
>Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
>Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
>

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Call for two Governors (Provincia America Boreoccidentalis and Provincia America Mediatlantica)
From:	"julilla" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 04:55:12 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa"
<vipsaniusagrippa@h...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> I am not sure whether I am correct so I will ask for
clarification. The subject line reads America Boreoccidentalis, but
the body says Canada Occidentalis. Which is correct? If it is
Canada Occidentalis, then I wish to submit my name for
consideration. I am only 24, but have been a citizen
> for over two years and I am currently the only assidui in the
province. I am also webmaster for our site. A lack of content is
holding the site back as the level of activity has been ridiculously
low. I believe I have learned a lot from Quintus Sertorius, the best
governor our province has had.
>
> If he wishes to resume the governship, then I will withdraw my
submission.
>
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
> Paterfamilas- Gens Vipsania, Curator Araneum- Canada Occidentalis

And from the praetrix of your provincia to the south (unless I am on
double-secret probation) I wish you bonam Fortunam! I confess I was a
bit startled when I saw the subject line myself, so am hoping that
the illustrus consul did what I often do: copy the text from one
message and modify it when I need to send a similar message!

May Provincia Canad Occidentalis grow and prosper, and know that we
would love to draw a closer connection between you and our other
neighbours!

---
@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| www.villaivlilla.com/
@____@ Praetrix America Boreoccidentalis
|||| http://ambor.novaroma.org
Discussion Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmBor_Waves/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Typo about Governors
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:32:27 +0100

Salve Honorable Merlinia Ambrosia!

I mad a bad typo in the subject line. I am fully satisfied with our
two new Governors of Provincia America Boreoccidentalis and Provincia
America Mediatlantica and I really hope that they will stay as
Governors for a long time. Sometimes I am just too hasty.

I publicly apologize to Illustra Julilla Sempronia Magna, Illustrus
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus and all Quirites of Nova Roma for any
inconvinience my typo may have caused.

>Salve, Sr.Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus !
> Are you indeed looking for a New Govenor for Provincia America
>Meditlantica, or is it a Typo?
> Juat wondering if I missed something.
>
>Vale!
> Merlinia Ambrosia, Legata Nova Caesaria, Medatlantica

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Latin palaeographic links
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 05:00:28 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Here are a few links to the handlist of the Schoyen (my apologies to
our Scandinavian amici, but I haven't the foggiest notion how to
reproduce the diacritical in HTML) Collection of manuscripts. One of
the features of the handlist is that one can click on the artifact
photos to access magnificent enlargements which allow detailed
inspection of the scripts. For Latin book scripts see
http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.4/443.html#1816; for Latin
documentary scripts see http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.4/44.html.
Obviously both of these links include post-imperial Latinate scripts,
but the Roman ones are clearly marked. For the entire display of
script development from Australian prehistory to Amerindian scripts in
the Schoyen Collection see
http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.4/index.html.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A big problem in Provincia Italia
From:	Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 02:15:23 -0800 (PST)

AVETE OMNES

Actually a number of italian citizens (including
Propraetor and Curule Aedile Franciscus Apulus Caesar
and one of our Legati) is having a lot of troubles
because a big e-mail provider considers Yahoo mails as
spam. As a consequence they receive no message from
any Yahoogroup, thus including all NR mailing lists.
Our provincial list, which had 70 members, actually
has only 53, as the others have been directly put in
bouncing status by Yahoo.

If you have a yahoo account and send a message to any
of these citizens, it will bounce back.

We are trying to solve the problem, but actually the
only solution seems to be that of having these
citizens opening a different e-mail provider.

Please, forgive us for such situation. You see it is
not our fault, but we can understand it could create
some trouble in contacts with citizens.

Thank you very much,

OPTIME VALETE
Manivs Cinstantinvs Serapio
Legatvs Provinciae Italiae

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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Subject:	Re: Fw: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:10:20 -0000

Salve, Suetonius!

Thanks a lot. Pretty interesting, I will use it. But now another
question... We still have some ruins of the claudian time with these
lettes up? Or maybe an example of text using them?

Vale,
L. Arminius

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, John Walzer <jwalzer5@c...> wrote:
>
> Salvete:
>
> The last two lines of my reply to Lucius Arminius Faustus seem
to have gotten garbled in the original transmission. Below (I hope)
is the complete transmission. Sorry for the duplication.
>
> Valete
>
> L. Suetonius Nerva
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Walzer
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
>
>
> Salve Lucius:
>
> According to a recent biography of Claudius:
>
> "Before he came to power Claudius wrote a monograph
advocating the introduction of new letters into the Latin alphabet.
He put theory into practice as censor in 47. Tacitus follows his
notice of this measure with a history of the alphabet, which may have
formed part of a senatorial speech or edict by Claudius, or an
extract from his treatise. Claudius' letters did not survive him,
but Tacitus says thay could be seen on official inscriptions, and
Suetonius mentions books, records, and monumental inscriptions.
Claudius favoured -ai for -ae, as in Caisar, an antiquarian spelling
of the diphthong, and his new letters rationalized spelling. The
inverted digamma usefully stands for the "w" sound of v/u between
vowels and is frequently found; what may have been a western Greek
psi for b+s and p+s, less useful because it merely abbreviated a
combination, is not epigraphically attested; and a rough breathing
half-H or more plausibly a fifth century BCE Boeotian vowel
character, for "y", the Greek upsilon, as in the name Nymphius, in
Latin a sound between e and i, has given rise to modern controversy.
Claudius was well versed in Greek."
>
> I hope this was helpful.
>
> Vale
>
> L. Suetonius Nerva
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 2:49 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
>
>
> Salvete,
>
>
>
> Suetonius says that Emperor Claudius has invented three new
letters
> for the latin alphabet, but they have fallen on desuse after
his
> death, although they could be seen on some of his monuments.
>
> Do someone has any idea or information what are they, or sounds
like?
>
>
>
> L. Arminius Faustus
> Senior Plebeian Aedile
>
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:17:51 -0000

Salve, colleague!

Pretty interesting. I really have found these letters were lost. Now
we must try to find some ruin with them.

Another point is the �G� created by Rufus (Was Rufus, wasn�t? Cladius
Davianus once was showed a good biografy about him on the list, I
must find the correct name) on the Republican times. Why the letter
of Rufus has �got� and the Claudians haven�t?

Fonetic? Latin was already well entablished on Claudian times... or
politics, the anticlaudianism on Nero�s reign? (Claudius was famous
by not be so respected)

L. Arminius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
<cn.octavius.noricus@g...> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:49:35 -0000, Lucius Arminius Faustus wrote:
> >Suetonius says that Emperor Claudius has invented three new letters
> >for the latin alphabet, but they have fallen on desuse after his
> >death, although they could be seen on some of his monuments.
> >
> >Do someone has any idea or information what are they, or sounds
> like?
>
> I can remember two of them right now:
>
> First was an "I" with a dot (like our "i") that signified a
long "ee"
> sound.
>
> Second was a letter for the voiced s (like the "z" in English)
which
> looked like a Greek Sigma turned 180 degrees.
>
> Third one I'd have to look up.
>
> I hope this is at least remotely correct :-)
>
> --
> Optime vale!
>
> Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
> cn.octavius.noricus@g...
> 24.03.2003 20:52:39


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latin palaeographic links (corrected)
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:33:01 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

My apologies for the error in the last two links (apparently Yahoo
reads the sentence-completing periods as part of the URL).

For the Latin documentary scripts see:
http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.4/44.html

For the range of script exemplars in the Schoyen Collection:
http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.4/index.html

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?q?GLORIA_=A5_DIVI_=A5_IVLIORVM?=
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:30:45 -0000

G � IVLIVS � SCAVRVS � S � P � D.

AVE, QVIRITES.

AD � DIGNITATEM � ET � POSTESTATEM � VENERIS � GENETRICIS � IVLIORVM �
ET � DIVI � IVLII � ET � DIVI � AVGVSTI � F � DIV � IVL

A website site called "AUGUSTUS: IMAGES OF POWER", which was built by
Mark Morford of the
Classics Department of the University of Virginia, can be reached at
the following URL:

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/users/morford/augimage.html

It contains photographs and discussion of various works of
architecture and art displaying the power of G. Iulius Caesar
Octavianus Augustus filius Divi Iulii. Among these things of power
and beauty are:

The Mausoleum of Augustus;
The Ara Pacis Augusti;
The Statue of Augustus at Prima Porta; and
The Gemma Augustea.

Note that you can click on the original photos to access considerably
enlarged images which display more detail of the artifacts.

VALETE � PROPINQVI � NOSTRI � GENTIS � IULIAE � ET � OMNES � QUIRITES

G.IVLIVS SCAVRVS


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Moderation Message
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:43:06 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Frabicatoribus ipsius Fori electonici salutem dicit.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Moderation-Error Message
From:	"gfrose2000" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:52:13 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Frabicatoribus ipsius Fori electonici salutem dicit.

Ave, Fabricatores fori electronici.

After I posted my last two missives I received the following warning
from Yahoo:

"Your message has been posted. This group is moderated, your post will
not appear until it is approved by the moderator."

The Yahoo status statement on this group shows the group as
unmoderated. Am I missing something? Is it a Yahoo glitch? Do I
need a bloody Augur's services to penetrate the
innards of this electronic box? Or have the net mavens proscribed me? :-)

Vale, Quirites.

G. Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Moderation-Error Message
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:28:20 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Scaure.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gfrose2000" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Frabicatoribus ipsius Fori electonici salutem
> dicit.
>
> Ave, Fabricatores fori electronici.
>
> After I posted my last two missives I received the following warning
> from Yahoo:
>
> "Your message has been posted. This group is moderated, your post
> will not appear until it is approved by the moderator."
>
> The Yahoo status statement on this group shows the group as
> unmoderated. Am I missing something? Is it a Yahoo glitch? Do I
> need a bloody Augur's services to penetrate the
> innards of this electronic box? Or have the net mavens proscribed
> me? :-)
>
> Vale, Quirites.
>
> G. Scaurus

Most messages to this list are *not* moderated. But past events
(spamming, trolls...) have forced us to automatically place new
subscribers in moderated status. Thus, the praetores and thier
scribae must currently approve your messages before they reach the
list.

You will be taken out of moderated status pretty soon.

CN�SALIX�ASTVR�T�F�A�NEP�TRIB�OVF
PRAETOR


Subject:	Re: Fw: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
From:	John Walzer <jwalzer5@comcast.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:31:51 -0500

Salve Lucius:

Try this:

www.hypalonia.com/clas/Claudius.pdf

Article contains information on orthographic innovations re: 2 inscriptions. You will need to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed to view.

Vale

L. Suetonius Nerva
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius

Salve, Suetonius!

Thanks a lot. Pretty interesting, I will use it. But now another
question... We still have some ruins of the claudian time with these
lettes up? Or maybe an example of text using them?

Vale,
L. Arminius


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A big problem in Provincia Italia
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:47:24 -0500

Salvete,

On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 02:15:23AM -0800, Manius Constantinus Serapio wrote:
>
> Actually a number of italian citizens (including
> Propraetor and Curule Aedile Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> and one of our Legati) is having a lot of troubles
> because a big e-mail provider considers Yahoo mails as
> spam. As a consequence they receive no message from
> any Yahoogroup, thus including all NR mailing lists.
> Our provincial list, which had 70 members, actually
> has only 53, as the others have been directly put in
> bouncing status by Yahoo.
>
> If you have a yahoo account and send a message to any
> of these citizens, it will bounce back.
>
> We are trying to solve the problem, but actually the
> only solution seems to be that of having these
> citizens opening a different e-mail provider.
>
> Please, forgive us for such situation. You see it is
> not our fault, but we can understand it could create
> some trouble in contacts with citizens.

I have a recommendation for these folks and anyone else who would like a
(nearly) free e-mail account that is _not_ considered a standard source
of spam: <http://freeshell.org/>. You set up an account with them (takes
less than a minute) which gives you 60 days of access (and an instant
email account), then you mail them a dollar. When they get it, you've
got a permanent shell account (with lots of Unix goodies if you're
interested in that - it runs BSD on 64-bit computers). POP is supported,
so you can retrieve your mail from anywhere. You could, in fact, just
set it up just for the mail and never go there again. There are many
other advantages to having a shell account - including the ability to
filter spam from your mail, which means you never have to download the
stuff.

They support access via telnet (note that this is totally insecure) and
SSH - which _is_ secure. If you run Wind0ws and want to use SSH, get a
copy of PuttySSH <http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/>.

There are also other shell account providers, most of them free or very
low cost: <http://www.freebelt.com/freeshells.html>.

Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Melius frangi quam flecti.
It is better to break than to bend.
-- N/A


Subject:	Re: Fw: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:39:00 -0500

Salve L. Suetonius Nerva

I have been following the posts on the Roman alphabet and Claudius. I have
a few questions about Latin and Nova Roma.

I thing that some of us envision that some time in the near future some Nova
Romans will live in Nova Roma and speak Latin. But what kind of Latin? After
2000 years no community, except as a church language , has spoken Latin as
an every day language.

Will the University of Nova Roma Department of Languages publish a new
Latin-What-ever-other language dictionary?

WillbestillwriteLatinwithoutpunctuationmarksandnospaces?

How will modern terms be incorporated into Nova Roman Latin?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walzer" <jwalzer5@comcast.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius

> Salve Lucius:
>
> Try this:
>
> www.hypalonia.com/clas/Claudius.pdf
>
> Article contains information on orthographic innovations re: 2
inscriptions. You will need to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed to view.
>
> Vale
>
> L. Suetonius Nerva
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius Arminius Faustus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 7:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
>
>
> Salve, Suetonius!
>
> Thanks a lot. Pretty interesting, I will use it. But now another
> question... We still have some ruins of the claudian time with these
> lettes up? Or maybe an example of text using them?
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Eagle Deadline
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:10:01 -0500

Salve Friends

Just a reminder that any and all material for the April Eagle is due by midnight EST on Thursday March 27.

Thanks to all

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Moderation-Error Message
From:	Marcus Umbrius Ursus <pmcl@nctimes.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 09:51:05 -0800

>Most messages to this list are *not* moderated. But past events
>(spamming, trolls...) have forced us to automatically place new
>subscribers in moderated status. Thus, the praetores and thier
>scribae must currently approve your messages before they reach the
>list.
>
>You will be taken out of moderated status pretty soon.

Just as soon as you (and I...) prove that we are no more abusive than
typical citizens in this forum.

M. Umbrius Ursus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Moderation-Error Message
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:39:31 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, M. Umbri Urse.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Umbrius Ursus <pmcl@n...>
wrote:
> > Most messages to this list are *not* moderated. But past events
> > (spamming, trolls...) have forced us to automatically place new
> > subscribers in moderated status. Thus, the praetores and thier
> > scribae must currently approve your messages before they reach
> > the list.
> >
> >You will be taken out of moderated status pretty soon.
>
> Just as soon as you (and I...) prove that we are no more abusive
> than typical citizens in this forum.
>
> M. Umbrius Ursus

It has more to do with avoiding spammers and hit-and-run attacks than
with abusiveness :-).

In any case, moderation just means that your messages are being
reviewed. Should one of your messages be retained for any reason, an
announce to this mailing list would immediately be posted.

We, the praetores, have been thinking about clarifying all these
procedures. Since this issue is linked with other complex issues, it
will take a little more time. But rest assured that we are working on
it with the goal to improve this service.

CN�SALIX�ASTVR�T�F�A�NEP�TRIB�OVF
PRAETOR


Subject:	Re: Fw: [Nova-Roma] The forgotten letters of Emperor Claudius
From:	John Walzer <jwalzer5@comcast.net>
Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 2003 14:31:03 -0500

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus writes:

> I have been following the posts on the Roman alphabet and Claudius. I have
> a few questions about Latin and Nova Roma.
>
> I thing that some of us envision that some time in the near future some Nova
> Romans will live in Nova Roma and speak Latin. But what kind of Latin? After
> 2000 years no community, except as a church language , has spoken Latin as
> an every day language.
>
> Will the University of Nova Roma Department of Languages publish a new
> Latin-What-ever-other language dictionary?
>
> WillbestillwriteLatinwithoutpunctuationmarksandnospaces?
>
> How will modern terms be incorporated into Nova Roman Latin?

Salve Tiberius:

As to what kind of Latin, it is my humble opinion (and only my opinion, as I'm sure other citizens have views on this), that one couldn't go wrong emulating the Latin of the Golden and Silver Ages of Latin Literature, beginning roughly 80 BCE and stretching over the next 200 years. We certainly have enough models, from Lucretius and Vergil to Seneca and Juvenal. Church Latin, as I understand it, is simply Imperial Latin pronounced according to the rules of modern Italian. So, the Church's "veni, vidi, vici" [vay-nee, vee-dee, vee-chee] becomes Caesar's "veni, vidi, vici" [way-nee, wee-dee, wee-kee] -- which I always thought was vaguely Hawaiian-sounding, but there it is.

The problem is that Classical, written Latin, was probably not identical to vulgar, spoken Latin. I think most languages share this characteristic. We have plenty of literature extant showing us how Latin was written in the 1st century BCE, but no surviving eyewitnesses to tell us how Latin was spoken in the 1st century BCE. I'm old but not that old. One author of a popular primer put it this way: "Ordinarily, the literary language keeps in touch with the spoken language. In societies with a high literacy rate, the reverse also tends to hold. In such societies, the literary language tells the spoken language to pull its socks up and stand straight, and the spoken language tells the literary language not to be so damned stuffy, with the result that both stay alive and well."

So, with the written language as a model, once enough people were speaking Latin to each other on a regular basis, a consensus on what was and was not acceptable would emerge. I think most languages normally sort themselves out in this way. All this, of course, is hypothetical, but such speculation can be a lot of fun.

I don't think we should emulate the lack of punctuation or spacing. Nor should we write on large scrolls pasted together from papyrus sheets - as Callimachus observed, probably heaving a sigh, "mega biblion, mega kakon" ["a big book is a big pain"].
I think the ancients would have appreciated white bond and a supply of PaperMate gel-roller retractable pens. And I don't think anyone wants to manufacture ink per Pliny the Elder's recipe: "from the soot produced by burning pitch or resin."

Adapting Latin to the need for new words for which the Romans had no equivalent shouldn't be difficult. Just emulate English, the champion lingual robber-baron of all time. We need a new word? Just steal from the Romans, the Greeks, the French, the Germans, whatever. How many words or terms have we coined by appropriating two verbs, "video" and "audio", which we also treat as nouns, and prefixing them to other words? And if one language is insufficient, we combine: videocassette (Latin & French), or videophone (Latin & Greek). I recently used the phrase, "Flammiferis cibum nolite dare" to translate "Don't feed the trolls!". "Troll" is of Scandinavian origin, and since we Romans never got that far, I could find no exact equivalent in Latin. So I used the Latin for "flame-carrier" or "flame-bearer" - a stretch since "troll" and "flamer" in e-speak are not synonymous, but close enough.

This is a fascinating topic and I'm sure other citizens will have valuable contributions to make to the discussion.

Vale

L. Suetonius Nerva
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>