Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] New telecomm laws: possible problems
From:	Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
Date:	05 Apr 2003 21:18:19 -0300

Em Sáb, 2003-04-05 às 19:55, Marcus Octavius Germanicus escreveu:
> > (1) A person shall not assemble, develop, manufacture, possess, deliver,
> > offer to deliver, or advertise an unlawful telecommunications access
> > device or assemble, develop, manufacture, possess, deliver, offer to
> > deliver, or advertise a telecommunications device intending to use those
> > devices or to allow the devices to be used to do any of the following or
> > knowing or having reason to know that the devices are intended to be used
> > to do any of the following:
>
> > (b) Conceal the existence or place of origin or destination of any
> > telecommunications service.
>
> They've just described every router and every host connected to the
> Internet that runs a relatively recent operating system. Every
> Cisco router has NAT; every Windows machine has it (which means that
> Microsoft violates this law several thousand times daily).
>
> This is a monumentally stupid law.
>

I was just writing the exact same thing in another window. I don't think
there is a single operating system (post-98) without NAT possibility.

The Yahoo polls also fall 7under that law: voting is anonymous.

Manius Villius Limitanus



--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Book on Ludi
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:32:06 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites:

Here is a review of Anne Mahoney's new book on ludi from the Bryn Mawr
Classical Review:

(From BMCR 2003.04.07)

Anne Mahoney, Roman Sports and Spectacles. Newburyport, MA: Focus,
2001. Pp. xiv, 119. ISBN 1-58510-009-9. $14.95 (pb).

Reviewed by Peter Aronoff, Marymount School
(Peter_Aronoff@marymount.k12.ny.us)
Word count: 1221 words
-------------------------------

Anne Mahoney presents a solid sourcebook on Roman entertainment, which
will prove helpful to teachers and to students. After a brief
introduction and overview, M. divides the material into seven chapters:
Origins and Foundations; Gladiators; Chariots and Circus Ludi; Theater,
Greek Athletics, and other events; Women and Sports; Politics and
Sports; Attitudes about Sport and Spectacles. Each of these chapters
offers translations of source material on the relevant topic; M. also
gives the various selections brief introductions to set the context and
introduce the authors. Following this, there is an outstanding
glossary, a one-page chronology of key events, two maps (the Roman
empire circa 69 AD and the city of Rome), and a short guide to further
reading. Finally, the book contains an index of sources and a good
subject index. It is unfortunate that the book does not include any
images, but this is probably necessary to limit the volume's cost.

The author suggests that this volume originated as translations of
specific passages for students in various classes, and I believe that
will remain its main use. What I mean by this is that individual
libraries or teachers will want to have a copy for reference, for
producing lectures or classes, and to refer students to. I don't think,
however, that many classes would require that students have copies of
their own. The scope of the volume is rather limited. By comparison, a
volume such as Jo-Ann Shelton's As the Romans Did covers sports and
spectacles, but also religion, family life, military matters,
government, etc. In addition, the nature of sourcebooks in general
means that the volume will not be especially helpful to novices outside
of other readings or a classroom context. So, for example, unless a
student had already heard a lecture on gladiators or read a synthetic
study (such as Balsdon or Hopkins), she would not be able to do much
with the eleven pages of selections on gladiators in this work. This is
not a criticism of M.'s work (and for the record the same goes for
virtually any sourcebook), but it does help to clarify who will benefit
most from this book and in what context. With that in mind, I will keep
strengths and weaknesses for students and teachers in mind as I look in
more detail at the book. (I should say explicitly that the book would
be appropriate for high-school and college students; I have both in
mind.)

The introduction is generally clear and accurate, but at times it is
overly brief or simplified. M. provides a general overview of Roman
sports and festivals, as well as of Roman history and social
organization. She very usefully describes the types of sources that the
volume contains, and she helpfully lays out the names and dates of all
the major Roman festivals. On a few crucial points, however, the
presentation is overly simplified or outright confusing. When comparing
Greek and Roman life and sports, M. wants to explain why Roman citizens
did not participate in sports as Greeks did. Part of her explanation is
that Greek citizen-soldiers needed the exercise: "Greek citizens fought
in the armies of their city-states" but "Rome, on the other hand, had a
standing army of professional soldiers" (viii). This is simply not true
for the early Roman Republic, and so it does little to help explain why
Romans and Greeks differed over who might participate in athletics.
Later in the introduction, M. seems to say that senators and knights
formed one class within Roman society. Although she might mean only
that they were the "haves" as opposed to the remaining Roman
"have-nots", again this would likely mislead students.

The heart of the book is clearly the translated source material, and M.
offers an excellent range of texts. Most of the sources focus on the
late Republic and early Empire, but this is entirely reasonable since
these periods provide the richest source material and are generally of
greatest interest to beginners. M. chooses material from literature,
letters, and inscriptions; she also includes material from Roman and
counter-Roman (read 'Christian') authors. I suspect that most readers
will find their favorites here: Ennius on auspices and chariot games;
Ovid on how to get a date at various games; Propertius on the delights
of Spartan women (sic); a graffiti tagger on the studliness of Celadus
the Thracian.[[1]] The most significant gap that leaps to mind is
Perpetua's vision of herself as a gladiator. This brief selection would
have added a great deal to the chapter on women and sports, which is
otherwise basically male sexual fantasies about women as gladiators or
(equally male) fantasies about sex between women and gladiators. It
might have also been nice to have Nietzsche's favorite selection from
Tertullian (Christians in heaven watching the tortures of the damned
like Romans at the games watching the torture of Christians). This
selection would helpfully counter-balance the other quotations of
Tertullian and also remind us that savagery is not missing from early
Christian authors.

The quality of the translations is very good. Although I did not
systematically check all of the material, those I did check were
excellent. In addition, the sources now read well as English, and M.
has done a nice job in a few cases (especially Petronius) of
reproducing the characteristic feel of the text. It is all too easy for
collections of translated source material to become entirely
homogenous, so that Ennius, Ovid, Cicero, and inscriptions all speak in
the same, contemporary English voice. M. chose to translate poetry as
prose, but again that seems reasonable for such a collection.

My only complaint in this regard is that M. does not give specific
references to the texts she uses for any given quotation. She says only
that she has used the Loeb, the Oxford Classical Text, or occasionally
the Teubner text (112). This doesn't really help since in many cases a
text appears in all three of these series. So, for example, when I read
the first selection of Ennius (page 24), I initially thought M. had
mistranslated "pictis e faucibus currus" so that the chariots rather
than the starting gates were painted. After looking around a bit,
however, I am inclined to think that she is translating here from O.
Skutsch's edition of the Annales (which reads for the phrase in
question "pictos e faucibus currus"). M. singles out for mention,
however, Warmington's Loeb volumes Remains of Old Latin, which include
Ennius, and she uses Warmington's numeration of Ennius rather than
Skutsch's. To compound matters, the translation of the rest of the
lines follows Warmington rather than Skutsch.[[2]] This may seem an
overly small concern, but, first, it really does matter whether the
chariots or the gates are painted and, second, teachers really should
know what they are giving their students. I noticed this point (largely
by accident), but I suspect that specialist readers of other authors
could raise similar concerns.

All in all then, I would repeat that M. has done teachers and students
a great service here. This volume will serve both groups well, whether
for producing lectures and classes or for offering further readings. In
more specialist contexts, teachers may want to check the source
material in question, but on the whole the volume will provide ample
and trustworthy background for this aspect of Roman life.

------------------
Notes:


1. Surely I am not the only reader to wonder if Celadus himself wrote
the four inscriptions in question.

2. The key is the final line of the quotation (91 Warmington, 82
Skutsch). At line end, there is a phrase which reads either "ora
tenebat" (Warmington) or "ore timebat" (Skutsch). M. translates
Warmington's version here.


-------------------------------
The BMCR website (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/) contains a complete
and searchable archive of BMCR reviews since our first issue in 1990.
It also contains information about subscribing and unsubscribing from
the service.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Books on Hellenistic Music
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:38:25 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

This seems to be the day for good reviews from the Bryn Mawr Classical
Review. Here is the review of two works on ancient Greek music (the
reviewer is Dr. William Johnson, to whose website I posted a link a
few days ago):

(From BMCR 2003.04.08)

M.L. West, Ancient Greek Music. Oxford: Oxford University Press,
1992. Pp. 410. ISBN 0-19-814975-1. $39.95.

Egert Po+hlmann, M.L. West, Documents of Ancient Greek Music. Oxford:
Clarendon Press, 2001. Pp. 222. ISBN 0-19-815-223-X. $65.00.

Reviewed by William A. Johnson, University of Cincinnati
(william.johnson@uc.edu)
-------------------------------

A quiet revolution has been astir in the study of ancient Greek music
over the last generation. Two landmark events stand out from among many
contributions. First is the publication in 1992 of Martin Litchfield
West's Ancient Greek Music (hereafter AGM). This book is the best on
the subject--period. The book is also my nomination for the best book
in the field of Classics in the 1990's. Breathtakingly learned,
brilliantly written, AGM puts forward a fresh compilation and analysis
of nearly all aspects of ancient music in 400 pages, and in such an
easy and modest way that the non-specialist is readily deceived into
thinking this all old hat. But it is hardly that: instead, a radically
clear and embracing view of how thousands of scattered and often arcane
details in ancient poetry, ancient philosophy, technical texts, papyri,
inscriptions, ethnomusicology, and elsewhere can be combined so as to
yield a sense of what ancient music was like and how it changed over
time. Read with attention and care, AGM not only will teach the reader
a great deal about music but also will transform fundamentally the ways
in which one views the archaic and classical "poetry" that we all know,
but seldom deeply appreciate, to have been mostly sung. Ancient Greek
Music was not originally the book under review here, but some remark
has seemed necessary since the book came out to surprisingly little
notice among all but specialists. Despite the Oxford University Press
imprint, the book was not included in BMCR or Classical Review, nor was
it reviewed in any leading Classics journal, excepting a review that
appeared almost a decade after the event.[[1]] I can't for the life of
me figure out why. It's certainly not the case that music is or should
be of marginal interest to ancient Greek culture or those who study
that culture. Nor is my own evaluation of AGM idiosyncratic. Of the few
reviews written, one (Beeman) begins, "after several attempts to write
this review I finally gave up trying to do justice to this prodigious
work"; another (Feaver) concludes, "West's book is a monument of
classical and musicological achievement and will serve as the standard
reference work on the subject of Greek music for generations to come."

One of the reasons that AGM is such an important book has to do with
West's thorough and integrated use of the ancient musical
documents--particularly papyri and inscriptions--in producing a
convincing and rounded view of changing musical tastes in the ancient
Greek world. That leads us to the second landmark event in the study
(or rather reconstruction) of ancient Greek music in the last
generation, which is the publication of a surprising number of new
fragments of ancient Greek melody. Since E. Po+hlmann's standard 1970
edition of the musical documents, Denkma+ler altgriechischer Musik, the
number of musical fragments has ballooned, from 35 to 61, including
several published even since the compendious 1992 catalogue included in
AGM. This miracle of new evidence, mostly from the sands of Egypt, is
what occasions the new edition, Documents of Ancient Greek Music
(hereafter DAGM), a welcome joint effort by Po+hlmann and West.[[2]]

DAGM contains for each fragment the Greek text, the Greek musical
notation (normally written above the Greek text on the papyrus), a
reasonably thorough apparatus criticus, a transcription into modern
staff notation, and a brief, technical commentary. Photographs are
included of documents without readily accessible plates. These are
fragmentary documents, and mostly very small fragments, with all that
entails. The Greek texts bristle with the usual uncertainties that
accompany fragmentary literary texts; the melodic notation is yet
worse, since there is far less guidance where the reading on the
papyrus or stone is uncertain; the commentary by necessity must range
into a host of technical considerations involving, for instance, sticky
details of rhythm as well as of music and text. The commentary, in
particular, is not for the uninitiated. There are, to be sure, tidbits
that will appeal to all. We find how typical tragic exclamations like
<greek>I)W/ MOI</greek>, <greek>E)\ E(/</greek>, and <greek>I)W\
PO/POI</greek> might be sung (DAGM, 22ff). The infectiously brilliant
writing of West's AGM is not generally in evidence here, but there are
moments, such as the amusing history of the stele containing the
Seikilos epitaph (DAGM, 90). But this is not bedtime reading; rather, a
major new edition of a group of fragments important for our
understanding of antiquity.

DAGM contains a fundamental re-appraisal of editio princeps and
subsequent discussion of each fragment. There is hardly a page without
a fresh suggestion (excepting West's recent POxy publications, which
are understandably only lightly reedited). The re-appraisal extends to
long-known fragments. The 1992 re-editing by Annie Be/lis of two Paeans
to Apollo from the Athenian Treasury at Delphi (Corpus des inscriptions
de Delphes III), itself a quantum-leap improvement in our understanding
of these important texts, is already improved in many places. We now
finally have an edition worth the name for one of our earliest
fragments of Greek music, a badly damaged papyrus fragment of
Euripides' Iphigeneia at Aulis (Pap. Leiden inv. P. 510). The detailed
reexamination of the manuscript tradition of Mesomedes (DAGM, 105ff) is
a good example of how fundamentally these editors have reevaluated even
the best-known documents. West and Po+hlmann have left no stone
unturned in the collecting of all known (or rumored) pieces. With a
recent spurt of publications West has now, apparently, exhausted the
musical fragments in the Oxford papyrus collections;[[3]] the editors
arranged to acquire advance notice of the most recent publications
elsewhere; and they managed to secure permission from Martin Sch<F8>yen to
include an as-yet unpublished papyrus in his personal collection.

The editing is often bold. Most of that appears to be due to Martin
West (judging from the app. crit. ), and those familiar with West's
editing style will not be surprised. The text abounds with brilliant or
plausible suggestions, but at times the judgment seems to tip towards
over-boldness, a tendency to raise plausible speculation from apparatus
to the text, particularly as regards uncertain musical notes. For most
fragments, the edition is based on autopsic re-collation against the
original by one or both editors, and in those cases one must nod to the
editors' expert judgments. But at times the editors appear to be
dependent on photographs, and yet remain surprisingly unhesitant to
correct the autopsic examination of the original editors. This is not
necessarily a bad thing. I note with embarrassment that the editors
correct an error that crept into my edition of the Yale musical papyrus
that I published in 2000.[[4]] Still, autopsy remains an important
issue, and yet the editors are not always clear whether they have
personally examined a piece or not. An example: the edition
incorporates three readings proposed by West in ZPE 92 (1992) 5 for
Pap. Zenon 59533 (DAGM No. 8, p. 41), but neither in the ZPE article
nor in DAGM is it made clear whether these are based on photograph or
personal inspection. At least one (reading <greek>]E-WN</greek> for
<greek>]DWN</greek> in line 3) seems implausible, judging from the fact
that one expects a gap between <greek>E</greek> and <greek>WN</greek>
if West were correct (this musical papyrus text otherwise shows
noticeable gaps between every syllable in the text). Our evaluation of
such details would be helped if we knew in every case whether the
editors' judgment were based on personal inspection, or on the
photograph available to us all.

With that caveat, I wish quickly to return to accolade. The technical
mastery necessary to achieve such an edition is hard to overstate, and
we are indeed very fortunate to have two such expert guides through the
many difficulties of poetic, metrical, rhythmic, and musical
interpretation. Indeed, as I reflect on the situation, perhaps one
reason that West's 1992 book, AGM, has received such shameful lack of
attention may have to do with the technical and terminological hurdles
that the reader eventually faces in the study of ancient music. AGM is
a marvel of instruction, but a great deal of hard work is required if
the reader is to absorb the whole. The book both boasts and succeeds in
taking the musicless reader by small steps into an understanding of the
fundamentals of ancient instruments, music, musical culture and theory,
but eventually the reader finds him- or herself in a rather strange
world where pitch notation, as opposed to the comfortable transparency
of modern notations, resembles an alphabetic soup; where moving up
along the notes of a particular key seems weirdly akin to deciphering a
subway map (see AGM, 257); and where we learn to think clear an
explanation like, "in other words, with either a conjunct or a disjunct
tetrachord above Mese^" (AGM, 221)-- just as, for a Classicist (but
hardly anyone else), it is clear to speak about an aorist participle or
an absolute construction. Now in the case of AGM, the reader can skim
or skip the most technical sections, and still get a lot from the book.
For DAGM, full command of the technical details and terminology is
routinely assumed.

DAGM will stand as the basic edition for the Greek musical documents
for a long time. For specialists, of course, DAGM is a fundamental
resource. For most non-specialists, AGM will remain the book to turn
to. But everyone with a serious interest in Greek poetry will, I hope
and expect, want to sing or play the transcribed melodies (inadequate
as that is for any reconstruction, and fragmentary as they are), and to
read through the Greek text and (at least parts of) the commentary to
get a sense of how the music relates to the "poetry" and the culture.
Indeed Po+hlmann and West's DAGM makes clear what sort of mastery of
detail, and what seamless integration between literary, papyrological,
epigraphic, and musicological evidence, West's earlier book, AGM,
proffers. The next time someone says that we don't really know anything
about ancient Greek music, pluck these two books off the shelf and
suggest some self-improvement.


------------------
Notes:


1. D. Feaver, AJPh 122 (2001) 436-440. A capsule review by Jon
Solomon did appear in CW 89 (1995-6) 493-4; and an interesting essay
("A Distant Music") by Otto Steinmayer in Arion 3rd ser. 4 (1996-7)
223-236 used West's book as a launching point. William O. Beeman, an
anthropologist and professional opera singer, wrote a review for the
on-line journal Didaskalia (volume 1, issue 5, December 1994). A couple
of reviews have appeared in musicological journals: Andre/ Barbera,
Notes 50 (1994) 1359-1361; E. Kerr Borthwick, Music and Letters 74
(1993) 562-4. I have not been able to see the review in the
curiously-named periodical 1/1, The Journal of the Just Intonation
Network 8 (1994) 2-3, by John H. Chalmers Jr.

2. E. Po+hlmann, Denkma+ler altgriechischer Musik Nuremberg 1970.
Counts and definition of "fragments" as in DAGM, 6.

3. "Texts with Musical Notation," POxy 55 (1998) nos. 4461-7;
"Sophocles with Music(?). Ptolemaic Music Fragments and Remains of
Sophocles (Junior?), Achilles," ZPE 126 (1999) 43-65.

4. William A. Johnson, "Musical Evenings in the Early Empire: New
Evidence from a Greek Papyrus with Musical Notation," JHS 120 (2000)
57-85 = DAGM no. 41. The error is the fifth note of col. i, line 2 (in
my hand transcripts I too read backwards gamma for phi; I thank Robert
G. Babcock for kindly re-confirming this reading on the papyrus).
Examples of bold readings elevated to the text are the two instances of
chi read at col. i, line 4. Note that in the re-editing of this papyrus
the alignment of column two has gone awry in DAGM: the left of this
column is flush, i.e. there is no indentation at col. ii, lines 8-10,
or ekthesis at col. ii, line 3.




-------------------------------
The BMCR website (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/) contains a complete
and searchable archive of BMCR reviews since our first issue in 1990.
It also contains information about subscribing and unsubscribing from
the service.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:24:54 -0800 (PST)

Salve,
The statement hit me on two fronts, first of all as
Senator Sulla has stated it is offensive to the
Religio to change the Games. They are for the Gods not
for the entertainment of men. (Though men may find
entertainment in our offering of games to the Gods.)

The Second is far more personal and it concerns the
accusation of "bombing inocent civilians". That is a
slur against my Macronation and my Family.

The United States has spent Billions of Dollars
developing accurate weapons, and these weapons are far
more expensive than the old fashioned dumb bombs. If
the United States wanted to target civilians we could
have sent wave after wave of bombers armed with dumb
bombs and after 17 days half the population of Baghdad
would be dead or injured.

Last week, during a fight for a bridge over the
Euphrates the Iraqis were using Iraqi civilians as
human shields. A woman broke away from the Iraqi
forces, and was shot in the back by the soldiers of
her country. She lay wounded in the middle of a
battle. An American Captain risked his life under fire
from the Iraqis to drag that civilian to safety. This
is one of the people that the mindless accusation of
"bombing inocent civilians" is aimed at.

I Am a Vetran. My Son is a Vetran. Both of my brothers
are Vetrans. My Father was a Vetran. All Three of his
brothers are Vetrans. One of My Grandfathers was a
Vetran who lost a leg in the battles to liberate Roma
from the Nazis. My Nephew is serving in Iraq now. The
United States has never fought a war that member of my
family didn't serve in.

When you slander the United States Military you are
also slandering my family. Over the years I have
learned to ignore the ignorant accusations from
mindless mobs howling in the streets, but I damn well
don't intend to ignore something that is insulting to
my Family, to my Macronation, and to the Religio in
offical anouncements from Magistrates of Nova Roma.

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Ave, Sp. Postumius,
>
> The problem is how can a man tamper and corrupt the
> Religio. I am
> activately waiting for our Pontifex Maximus to
> return from his trip to
> comment on this considering that our only Augur has
> asked for a veto, and
> another Pontiff has voiced strong displeasure. I
> hope that the Magistrates
> who are entitled to veto this "declaration" might
> for the sake of the
> Religio veto this measure before the CP are
> summoned, but if not I will wait
> for the Pontifex Maximus to intervene, and ask him
> privately via email to
> intervene.
>
> This attempt to dilute the Religo's practices and
> rituals is a corruption of
> the offical Religion of Nova Roma, in my opinion.
> And as I have spoken out
> when I have felt that members of Xtianity have been
> criticised, I am now
> speaking out just as vehmently when I see the
> Official Religion in Nova Roma
> being corrupted by men who do not have the
> knowledge, authority or
> relationship with the Gods.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Spurius Postumius" <postumius@gmx.net>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
>
>
> > Salve Senator Sulla,
> >
> > Since this is about the Religio, I do indeed
> understand the issue. I
> myself am not entirely happy with the tampering with
> the Ludi, but I also
> cannot disagree with Aedile Caesar in his attempt to
> respect the opinions of
> some of the citizens. But I don't think you
> understand what I tried to say.
> I'm saying that if one has a problem with another's
> actions, why not first
> take it up in private before bringing things into
> the public forum. While I
> cannot say that this course of action was not taken,
> I just want to make the
> point that the course of action would have most
> likely been more effective
> if taken up in private first. And, to add, if there
> is that much of a
> problem with the action taken by the Aedile, why not
> take it, after bringing
> it privately to the Aedile's attention, to the
> Collegium Pontificium. The
> Religio is their responsibility.
> >
> > Finally, to end things, the Aedile, I don't think,
> was trying to please
> everyone, as that is almost impossible; rather, I
> think he tried to respect
> some of our citizens. Just count yourself with those
> who were not pleased,
> and move on.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Sp. Postumius Tubertus
> >
> > "In domo maiorum vivimus."
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 20:10:42 -0500

On Sat, Apr 05, 2003 at 10:37:11PM +0100, me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> >From : Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
> >
> >Yes - except that the racist in his case was not a random entity as
> >in the above paragraph but a group described by the dismissive term
> >?Pinkskins?. That implication - ?pink skin == racist? - was precisely
> >what I found offensive.
> >
> The reference, if you need it spelt out in its entirety

Not particularly. I had read it previously, and understood the point you
were making. My objection was not to your main point - with which I
mostly agree, by the way - but with the racism of the term "Pinkskins".

> As I have never seen anyone
> with white skin even on a slab with a Formaldhyde drip attached, nor
> of black skin outside of certain Indian demons and gods and those
> inaccurate terminologies are overloaded with prejudicial baggage, it
> seemed appropriate to use the more accurate neologisms Pinkskin,
> Brownskin and Goldskin as a generality.

So... these so-called "more accurate" terms are *not* overloaded with
prejudicial baggage? I'm so glad you told me. Certainly, now that you
have said so, it _must_ be true. Oh, one last thing: by whose authority
was this fiat issued? I'm sure that I will quake at the name; it must be
some overarching, multicultural, multinational organization to whom all
must pay heed and reverence.

Unless you have something of substance to say, I won't belabor this
issue any further; I believe I've made my point clearly.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Don't you know then, my son, how little wisdom rules the world?
-- Said by the Swedish chancellor Axel Oxenstierna to encourage his son Johan when
he doubted his ability to represent Sweden at the Westphalian peace conference.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:20:32 EST

In a message dated 4/5/03 2:32:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, postumius@gmx.net
writes:


> I realize the religious implications of the declaration, but if that is of
> concern, why could it not have been brought to the attention of the
> involved Aediles in private, instead of publicly flaming our esteemed
> magistrates; lest we all forget that these magistrates were elected by the
> populace, and that these noble men took the position willingly, rather than
> being forced to accept their positions.
>
>

Which was why they were protested publicly. Indeed I and the Pontifix
Maximus had cooperated with the Aediles for the Megalesia, we asked the
Priestess to compose a ritual,
and we encouraged participation.
However had the Aediles made us privy to their plans beforehand we would have
told them
they were in violation of II I of the Constitution:
"No elected official shall use their elected powers or political status
as a means of working to undermine, remove, or replace the Religio Romana as
the State Religion of Nova Roma."

By ignoring the actual "spilling" of blood, they are undermining the
significance of the rituals and the purpose of the Ludi.

III "No Citizen or Magistrate shall actively encourage public disrespect for
the Gods of Rome, or actively advocate the non-practice of the Religio"

By making a political statement and by-passing the College they are in
violation
of this clause.

Truthfully had the Aediles approached the College beforehand, the PM, the
State Augur, and the Pontiffs would have said no. And this sad spectacle
could have been
avoided. But they did not. I was hoping that the rebuke was enough. It
wasn't.
So now the College will have to take other steps.
Thank you for your questions, Postumius.

Valete

FABIVS





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"Spurius Postumius" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:58:46 -0500

Sp. Postumius Senatori Fabio Maximo S.P.D.

Salve Quinte Fabi,

> Truthfully had the Aediles approached the College beforehand, the PM, the
> State Augur, and the Pontiffs would have said no. And this sad spectacle
> could have been
> avoided. But they did not. I was hoping that the rebuke was enough. It
> wasn't.
> So now the College will have to take other steps.

So now, as I see it, you are stating a precedent that the Collegium Pontificium should be consulted on any action that involves the Religio. If that is the case, I must say this is absurd. Insofar as Nova Roma is concerned, a majority of the work the Aediles will do concerns the Religio. If the Aediles have to consult the Collegium on every action, I do not see anything getting done by either the Collegium Pontificium nor by the Aediles.

I cannot say that you did not take this course of action, but when your disagreement with the declaration was decided upon, why not take it to the Aedile privately? If he had felt himself to violate any part of the Religio or the Constitution, being a reasonable man, do you not think that he (and his cohors, which I seem to forget) would retract the declaration? When it became apparent that some of his prior edicts were unconstitutional, did he not retract those? So why would he act otherwise?

In any case, I think the rebuke would have been enough, had it been done in more quieter venues. Because it was done in a very open forum, it could not have had the chance to have been enough. So now, sadly, the College just may have to take other steps. Perhaps, not to question the integrity of the Collegium, they may first privately request a retractment of the declaration, before going public about it.

Optime Vale, Senator,

Sp. Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus, Citizen of Rome

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 19:43:44 -0800 (PST)

Drusus
You have My respect....
and prayers for a safe return of your nephew.If you
will, E-mail us the name of your nephew so we can lift
him up in prayer. We to have brothers in this war and
remember them daily.It is very unfortunate that we
have lost a cousin just two days ago [Russell
Rippetoe]. May his loss be not in vain.
Brutis


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 23:48:09 -0500

Salve Romans!

I would like to start a series on the leading personalities and events of the Roman Republic, especially during it's last 100-150 years or so. It would end with the death of Augustus and the passing of his powers to Tiberius, the final act in the establishment of the Monarchy. You can write about individual people, the legal or constitutional issues involved or something else that interests you about his period in Roman history. If you are interested please e-mail me at spqr753@msn.com and tell me who or what you would like to write about.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 20:54:31 -0800

Ave,

How long and how thorough do you want it? Do you want it for beginners or a more advanced audience?

Respectfully,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Gallagher
To: Nova-Roma ; Novaromaeagle
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 8:48 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle


Salve Romans!

I would like to start a series on the leading personalities and events of the Roman Republic, especially during it's last 100-150 years or so. It would end with the death of Augustus and the passing of his powers to Tiberius, the final act in the establishment of the Monarchy. You can write about individual people, the legal or constitutional issues involved or something else that interests you about his period in Roman history. If you are interested please e-mail me at spqr753@msn.com and tell me who or what you would like to write about.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 20:55:38 -0800 (PST)

Barry Miller,
He's a specilist in Chem/Bio Warfare defense, so I'm
pretty sure He's near Baghdad, since that is where
they are most worried that the Butcher would use the
weapons. We haven't heard from him since the first day
of the war.

My Condolances on your loss, it will not be in vain.
Freedom isn't free. Libertas does not bestow her
blessings on nations who's sons are unwilling to pay
the ultimate price for them. We owe a debt of
gratitude your family and to all the families who have
paid a terrible price to secure her favors.

--- "G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Drusus
> You have My respect....
> and prayers for a safe return of your nephew.If you
> will, E-mail us the name of your nephew so we can
> lift
> him up in prayer. We to have brothers in this war
> and
> remember them daily.It is very unfortunate that we
> have lost a cousin just two days ago [Russell
> Rippetoe]. May his loss be not in vain.
> Brutis
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms,
> and more
> http://tax.yahoo.com
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 00:19:34 -0500

Salve L. Cornelius Sulla

How about both? (asking to much?) I would like to include this in the
classroom edition of the Eagle that we are going to be publish. Middle
school/ high school? but mainly for NR. The size should be about 1000-1500
words. It can be edited or we can divide it in to more that one parts. More
important figures of the Republic would be given more space same with the
issues. More important issue more space. Do you have anyone or any issue in
mind?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle


> Ave,
>
> How long and how thorough do you want it? Do you want it for beginners or
a more advanced audience?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sulla
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen Gallagher
> To: Nova-Roma ; Novaromaeagle
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 8:48 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle
>
>
> Salve Romans!
>
> I would like to start a series on the leading personalities and events
of the Roman Republic, especially during it's last 100-150 years or so. It
would end with the death of Augustus and the passing of his powers to
Tiberius, the final act in the establishment of the Monarchy. You can
write about individual people, the legal or constitutional issues involved
or something else that interests you about his period in Roman history. If
you are interested please e-mail me at spqr753@msn.com and tell me who or
what you would like to write about.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Curator Differum
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:44:10 -0800 (PST)

Thank you my friend
and we will remember only the good times.
I'm sure Spec.Miller will be home very soon, because
it does looks like the end is near for Sad-damn.
I do love the photo's of the Abrams running over his
statue.
Brutis


--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Barry Miller,
> He's a specilist in Chem/Bio Warfare defense, so I'm
> pretty sure He's near Baghdad, since that is where
> they are most worried that the Butcher would use the
> weapons. We haven't heard from him since the first
> day
> of the war.
>
> My Condolances on your loss, it will not be in vain.
> Freedom isn't free. Libertas does not bestow her
> blessings on nations who's sons are unwilling to pay
> the ultimate price for them. We owe a debt of
> gratitude your family and to all the families who
> have
> paid a terrible price to secure her favors.
>


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Scattered thoughts on race
From:	Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
Date:	Sat, 5 Apr 2003 23:14:42 -0800

Salve Iulius Scaurus,

>What Greek noun is being translated here as "races"? I don't have a
copy of Dio Cassius at home, so I can 't immediately check (and the
English of Loeb-series translations often has a quaintly antiquarian
flavour to it). There are several Greek words that could be
translated as "race": _ethnos_ (a people with a shared culture),
_phulon_ (from a common race, class, or tribe), _genos_ (kind,
origin), _gonos_ (of a common biological descent), _rhiza_ (from a
common root or origin), or _sperma_ (of a common origin or descent).
_Phulon_ is one word that sometimes has racial connotations similar to
the racial-prejudice sense of the word, as in such such prejoratives
as _pamphulos_ (of mixed/mingled races, half-breed, perhaps even with
resonances of the loathesome Nazi term "Mischling"). One of the
problems with translation is that the English word "race" has a much
wider semantic field than some of the Greek words it translates. <

Indeed. I was at work and hadn't my copy handy when I posted, so I resorted
to the frankly fabululous on-line edition, which is just the translation.
78.6.1a uses the word _ethnos_. You are correct, I myself confused the
notional qualities in trying to figure out how he was "Gallic" - in the
sense you define above, it would be his adoption of Gallic culture in the
guise of his caracal, the hooded cloak he made popular and which stung him
with a lasting nickname.

The more deeply I read into Roman history, the more similarities I see with
people today (as opposed to the entirely "alien society" aspect Dr.
McCullough flogs us with). Dio appears no different, in fact, from my own
father: he had a complete shorthand of all the good and bad characteristics
of every ethnic/racial group, and the jokes that went with them. It appears
to me the Romans were just as bad as anyone in terms of "He's from Pontus,
watch the silver," but perhaps better than modern society in that skin-color
didn't seem pre-deterministic in the way it is in, say, my neighborhood of
South Central Los Angeles. But I admit, I want to do more research on this
before I commit.

I hope you didn't think I was arguing or disputing your point; I don't
generally do that on this list. I like to add, from my admittedly narrow
range of research. I realize most people are more interested in the later
republic and Julio-Claudian period. I enjoy your erudition mightily.

Salve,

CN IVLIVS STRABO

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Praetores (was Greek fonts on Yahoo)
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 03:04:16 -0500

T Labienus Fortunatus C Iulio Scauro SPD

First, let me take this opportunity to thank you for your highly
informative and interesting posts. I wish that I had more time in which
to participate in some of the conversations they've sparked. It was
especially nice to be able to agree with someone about the Gracchi's
reforms for once.

> In historical Roman law a praetor urbanus could not adjudicate a
> violation of the law by a citizen unless an actio was presented
> by a citizen (in effect, all criminal actiones were private actiones).
> From something said in this thread I infer that a Novaroman praetor
> can take action against a citizen for a violation of law without an
> actio being presented by another citizen to that praetor. Is this
> inference correct?

The inference is technically correct. There is nothing in Nova Roman
law that prevents a praetor from acting against a civis through the use
of an edictum, even without a petitio from another civis. The closest
we have to such a law is the last sentence of the preamble of our
constitution, which states:

"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova
Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable,
as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture,
religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of
ancient Rome."

So far, to my knowledge, no Nova Roman praetor has deviated from the mos
maiorum in order to act against a civis who has violated Nova Roman law
without a petitio*. However, it is my experience that praetores are
often (and erroneously) called upon to perform investigations into
possibly illegal actions taken by various cives. I think this is due to
a misunderstanding on the part of many of the role the praetores played
in Roma Antiqua, and therefore of the role they ought to play in Roma
Nova. That is, many think that the praetores constitute the law
enforcement arm of the government, when they are in fact the
government's law experts and judges.

*There is one major exception to this observation. The praetores do
routinely take action by fiat, sine petitio, against cives who violate
the main list's rules of conduct. They are given the authority to do
this in general by the constitution, which gives them imperium and the
ability to issue edicta, and by Lex Octavia de Sermone, which
specifically appoints and empowers the praetores as the moderators of
all of Nova Roma's official electronic fora. I personally view this as
an exception to the rule set forth by the mos maiorum.

Vale
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Megalesia affair
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 04:00:47 -0500

Salvete Francisce Apule Quiritesque

> sorry for my little absence, I had a complicated surgical operation
> to a tooth yesterday and I'm not so fine.

I hope your surgery went well, and that you have a rapid and full
recovery. I will light some incense to Aesculapius on your behalf.

> First of all the Joint declaration is by me and my Cohors. My
> Illustres colleagues Aediles didn't sign it, so please don't consider
> them.

Thank you for clearing this up. There had been some confusion about this.

> I want to explain that we haven't said to not want organize the
> games. We say we organize the games but without violent scenes.
> What is bad here? Do you want blood? Why?
> The blood and violence are not needed and obliged parts of the games.
> Why do you don't want quiet Ludi?

I don't want quiet ludi because, to my knowledge, the ancient ludi
weren't quiet. And, the ludi were, and are, sacred games. Nova Roma's
reason for being is the Religio Romana, and I want to see every effort
made to properly honor the Gods.

> Illustrus Labienus, Illustrus Maximus and everybody, have you readen
> the histories of Venationes? Is this game so different from the game
> of the last year? Is it less funny? Is it against the Gods because it
> hadn't blood or murders? Do you think chariot races without accidents
> could offense the Gods? Do you think Naumachiae without blood hurt
> our Res Publica?
> I thing not, however I thing a bloodly and tragical murder of
> gladiator could hurt a citizen.

I'm rather torn on the subject, actually. Our ludi are already
bloodless and without real risk or sacrifice (except for the sacrifice
of time and effort put into them by the aediles and their staff--a
sacrifice which I, and hopefully the Gods, do appreciate). And, most of
our ludi have been held in a rather tongue-in-cheek fashion, with
entertainment value and humor in mind. Therefore, it doesn't seem all
that much of a step to remove the fictional blood from them. And, it
may be that virtual games are not particularly satisfying to the Gods in
any case.

On the other hand, the ancient ludi were bloody affairs, and we should
make every effort to recreate our sacred games in accord with the mos
maiorum as best we can, given the limitations imposed by the nature of
our community. Also, a number of our more knowledgeable and respected
cives, pontifices and an augur among them, have spoken against
non-violent ludi. Indeed, when our augur calls for a veto, I must, at
the very least, give careful consideration to the issue.

> I don't think we didn't respect the declaration of neutrality of Nova
> Roma.

I agree with you. I think that Q Fabius' suggestion that you've
committed perduellio is a bit much. However, I also think that you may
have taken the neutrality policy in an unintended direction. Caeso
Fabius and I have recognized Nova Roma's international character and
determined that Nova Roma will not take a side in the current US-Iraq
war. We have not asked that any of Nova Roma's internal functions be
changed.

Indeed, it would be best if we treated everything with a "business as
normal" attitude, as this is the course which is most congruent with
neutrality. Otherwise, any change in our ways of doing things will very
likely be construed by some as implying a political stance with regard
to the war. This is obviously the case with this issue.

> I don't say we are pro or against the war. I say I'm for the eternal
> idea of the peace. Is this political? Is this against our declaration
> of neutrality?

No, it is not. In fact, I feel that it is a laudable attitude.
However, we magistrates must occasionally put aside our personal
feelings in order to properly do our duty to Nova Roma. Therefore, I
ask you to carefully and dispassionately consider whether or not you
think you are properly fulfilling your duty to Nova Roma and the Gods of
Rome with your policy of non-violent ludi. If, after careful
reflection, you still wish to continue with that policy, I will not
immediately veto you.

That said, if the Collegium Pontificum as a whole officially asks me to,
or if our augur reports ill omens with regard to the ludi because of
your policy, I will use my veto and officially request that you and your
staff do your best to provide us with ludi which are in keeping with
those we have seen to date. I hope you realize that I won't do this for
personal reasons. Nor do I think at all badly of you and your staff. I
do sympathize with your feelings, and agree that war is a truly horrible
thing.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
should I do?"

Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Nova-Roma]_Nova_Roman_Controversy?=
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:38:59 +0200

Spectati cives omnes

I really had enough!

Nova Roma is neutral in this war and for this reason I Held my tongue
and kept quiet. But I am at present reading clear statements of
supports to the United States. I don't blame americans for supporting
their own government.
I would like to show them that what they think is not at all shared by
a Nova Roman citizen.

Being Italian I have a precise and strong idea of what a terroristic
bombing of civilian is. The americans bombed countless times civil
targets in Italy in WWII. Schools, as in Gorla near Milan, hospitals
nearly everywhere, monuments, the list of monuments hit in Bononia
where I live would be extremely long, funeral processions for the deads
of american bombing, as in Vicenza.

Moreover, Rome was an "open town", so liberated is not correct. In any
case, I would like to remember that thousands of Italians fought
against the american invasion, and from the point of view of honour and
military history, Germans were Italy's ally, so please keep the
rhetoric of Liberation to your private feelings.

If matter of liberation is, it's our business. Moreover, without any
reason other than military occupation, americans are at present
occupying Italy with plenty of military installations totally out of
control from our government.

I see american war against Iraq totally unjustified, but this is a
private statement of little importance, spectate Druse, I think the
deprived uranium is a weapon like the ones American say Saddam uses;
but even this is of little importance.

I respect your ideas, and even american soldiers, but not everybody is
interested in reading about your support to a war which I strongly
oppose, and not because I am in favor of peace, but because I think USA
are behaving against right and simply for economic imperialism.

I respect your feelings, but as we are neutral, please keep your ideas
to the private.

Reverenter

Gallus Solaris Alexander
Bononia
Italia

Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Nova-Roma]_Nova_Roman_Controversy?=
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:52:59 +0200

Spectati Cives Omnes

I didn't know Honorable Sulla is a Jew. And surely because I know too
little of Judaism, I thought until now that nothing could be farther
from Roman Religion than Judaism.

On the contrary, Hon. Sulla's statement about Roman Religion is of the
most accurate correctness. So I won't add anything and simply invite
everybody to read it again.

I shall simply say: yes, many people in Nova Roma don't like this war,
many other don't like war in general, but this has nothing to do from a
point of view of Religio with that idea. A religious action can't be
changed, never and in the slightiest.

If against the war, or in favor of peace, everybody could take any step
he likes. I don't think we can now: a declaration of neutrality has
been issued and we have to stick to it.

Bear in mind that could happen that an american Nova Roma citizen is
fighting at present in Iraq. I think he would need the freedom of
serving without any bonds from Nova Roma. Meanwhile, political debate
in the Senate can always be reopened, and duty of Senators is to listen
to citizens' issues.

Finally, let's try to speak more of Roman issues than politics bringing
divisions.

Gallus Solaris Alexander
Bononia
Italia

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:10:11 +0200

Salve Sp. Posthumius,

re: your response to Q Fabius
< So now, as I see it, you are stating a precedent that the Collegium
Pontificium should be <consulted on any action that involves the Religio. If
that is the case, I must say this is absurd.

Why is that absurd? That is what they are there for. They consult with
eachother on matters regarding the Religio and now you are saying that when
non-religio people make decisions that effect the Religio they don't need to
consult with our Priests? Your local priest cannot change Sunday mass
without 5 years of discussions at the Vatican so why does the Religio Romana
get less respect?

Vale,
Diana Moravia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia affair
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <fraelov@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 11:39:12 -0000

Salve Consul,

thank you very much for your support to my recovery, I'm not fine now
and I'll try to be quiet and concentrate to answer you all.
Thank you very much for your explanation but I have to ask you a
thing. In the past years several Magistrates didn't organize Ludi.
Illustrus Caesi Fabius Quintilianus (i was the chief of the Cohors)
have organized only Ludi Circenses, virtual chariot races where
players didn't die. Maybe this Magistrates have changed the Ludi?
Maybe they have hurted the Religio and the Gods? Why "they" attack me
now and not in the past?

Ok, do you want bllod in the Ludi, perfect you have it, but youìll
have to imagine it. IMHO my Office mustn't hurt my coscience as man.
I'm not a Nova Roman robot! ;-)
So, if you would like I'll give you all only the results of the games
(otherwise, my Cohors have sevaral technical problem to write the
histories, I needed writers). So, each citizen can imagine blood or
quiet scenes.

P.S: About the veto, Illustrus Cobsul, mine wasn't an official
edictum, is the veto able to stop a will declaration?

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Fortunatus <labienus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete Francisce Apule Quiritesque
>
> > sorry for my little absence, I had a complicated surgical
operation
> > to a tooth yesterday and I'm not so fine.
>
> I hope your surgery went well, and that you have a rapid and full
> recovery. I will light some incense to Aesculapius on your behalf.
>
> > First of all the Joint declaration is by me and my Cohors. My
> > Illustres colleagues Aediles didn't sign it, so please don't
consider
> > them.
>
> Thank you for clearing this up. There had been some confusion
about this.
>
> > I want to explain that we haven't said to not want organize the
> > games. We say we organize the games but without violent scenes.
> > What is bad here? Do you want blood? Why?
> > The blood and violence are not needed and obliged parts of the
games.
> > Why do you don't want quiet Ludi?
>
> I don't want quiet ludi because, to my knowledge, the ancient ludi
> weren't quiet. And, the ludi were, and are, sacred games. Nova
Roma's
> reason for being is the Religio Romana, and I want to see every
effort
> made to properly honor the Gods.
>
> > Illustrus Labienus, Illustrus Maximus and everybody, have you
readen
> > the histories of Venationes? Is this game so different from the
game
> > of the last year? Is it less funny? Is it against the Gods
because it
> > hadn't blood or murders? Do you think chariot races without
accidents
> > could offense the Gods? Do you think Naumachiae without blood
hurt
> > our Res Publica?
> > I thing not, however I thing a bloodly and tragical murder of
> > gladiator could hurt a citizen.
>
> I'm rather torn on the subject, actually. Our ludi are already
> bloodless and without real risk or sacrifice (except for the
sacrifice
> of time and effort put into them by the aediles and their staff--a
> sacrifice which I, and hopefully the Gods, do appreciate). And,
most of
> our ludi have been held in a rather tongue-in-cheek fashion, with
> entertainment value and humor in mind. Therefore, it doesn't seem
all
> that much of a step to remove the fictional blood from them. And,
it
> may be that virtual games are not particularly satisfying to the
Gods in
> any case.
>
> On the other hand, the ancient ludi were bloody affairs, and we
should
> make every effort to recreate our sacred games in accord with the
mos
> maiorum as best we can, given the limitations imposed by the nature
of
> our community. Also, a number of our more knowledgeable and
respected
> cives, pontifices and an augur among them, have spoken against
> non-violent ludi. Indeed, when our augur calls for a veto, I must,
at
> the very least, give careful consideration to the issue.
>
> > I don't think we didn't respect the declaration of neutrality of
Nova
> > Roma.
>
> I agree with you. I think that Q Fabius' suggestion that you've
> committed perduellio is a bit much. However, I also think that you
may
> have taken the neutrality policy in an unintended direction. Caeso
> Fabius and I have recognized Nova Roma's international character
and
> determined that Nova Roma will not take a side in the current US-
Iraq
> war. We have not asked that any of Nova Roma's internal functions
be
> changed.
>
> Indeed, it would be best if we treated everything with a "business
as
> normal" attitude, as this is the course which is most congruent
with
> neutrality. Otherwise, any change in our ways of doing things will
very
> likely be construed by some as implying a political stance with
regard
> to the war. This is obviously the case with this issue.
>
> > I don't say we are pro or against the war. I say I'm for the
eternal
> > idea of the peace. Is this political? Is this against our
declaration
> > of neutrality?
>
> No, it is not. In fact, I feel that it is a laudable attitude.
> However, we magistrates must occasionally put aside our personal
> feelings in order to properly do our duty to Nova Roma. Therefore,
I
> ask you to carefully and dispassionately consider whether or not
you
> think you are properly fulfilling your duty to Nova Roma and the
Gods of
> Rome with your policy of non-violent ludi. If, after careful
> reflection, you still wish to continue with that policy, I will not
> immediately veto you.
>
> That said, if the Collegium Pontificum as a whole officially asks
me to,
> or if our augur reports ill omens with regard to the ludi because
of
> your policy, I will use my veto and officially request that you and
your
> staff do your best to provide us with ludi which are in keeping
with
> those we have seen to date. I hope you realize that I won't do
this for
> personal reasons. Nor do I think at all badly of you and your
staff. I
> do sympathize with your feelings, and agree that war is a truly
horrible
> thing.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
> --
> "Since death alone is certain and the time of death uncertain, what
> should I do?"

Subject:	Re:_[Nova-Roma]_Nova_Roman_Controversy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:40:48 -0700 (PDT)

Your Knowledge of the History of Italy in the Second
World War seems to have come from someone who wished
to replace the truth with anti-american propaganda.

Mussolini began losing popularity after Italy lost her
African Colinies and Sicily was conqured. On July 25th
1943 the Fascist Grand Council desposed Mussolini and
King Victor Emmanuel III had Mussilini arrested, and
apointed Badogilo to head a new government. The
Italian government imeditaly entered negotions with
the United Nations. (The World War II alliance, not
the organization that grew out of it) An Armistice was
announced on the 8th of September 1943 that granted
Italy the status of a co-belligerent against the
Nazis. The United States landed troops the next day.
The following month Italy declared war against Germany
who now had the status of an occuping power, not of an
Italian ally.

"Liberation" was not just the view of the United
States government, it was also the view of the
majority of the Italian people and the Italian
government.

The United States did not target the Italian citizens
during the struggle to liberate them, though the
accuracy of the weapons of that time did lead to far
more deaths than would have occured with modern weapon
systems. Throughout the war in Europe the United
States suffered appalling loses by flying daytime
Bombing Missions in an effort to achive as precise a
bombing as possible. We could have saved a lot of
American lives by following the advice of British
Bomber Command and simply carpet bombing cities at
night, but we placed our aircrews in increased danger
in an effort to insure that as many bombs as possible
hit thier intended targets. 25,000 Americans died in
those dangrous daytime raids.

--- "sa-mann@libero.it" <sa-mann@libero.it> wrote:
> Spectati cives omnes
>
> I really had enough!
>
> Nova Roma is neutral in this war and for this reason
> I Held my tongue
> and kept quiet. But I am at present reading clear
> statements of
> supports to the United States. I don't blame
> americans for supporting
> their own government.
> I would like to show them that what they think is
> not at all shared by
> a Nova Roman citizen.
>
> Being Italian I have a precise and strong idea of
> what a terroristic
> bombing of civilian is. The americans bombed
> countless times civil
> targets in Italy in WWII. Schools, as in Gorla near
> Milan, hospitals
> nearly everywhere, monuments, the list of monuments
> hit in Bononia
> where I live would be extremely long, funeral
> processions for the deads
> of american bombing, as in Vicenza.
>
> Moreover, Rome was an "open town", so liberated is
> not correct. In any
> case, I would like to remember that thousands of
> Italians fought
> against the american invasion, and from the point of
> view of honour and
> military history, Germans were Italy's ally, so
> please keep the
> rhetoric of Liberation to your private feelings.
>
> If matter of liberation is, it's our business.
> Moreover, without any
> reason other than military occupation, americans are
> at present
> occupying Italy with plenty of military
> installations totally out of
> control from our government.
>
> I see american war against Iraq totally unjustified,
> but this is a
> private statement of little importance, spectate
> Druse, I think the
> deprived uranium is a weapon like the ones American
> say Saddam uses;
> but even this is of little importance.
>
> I respect your ideas, and even american soldiers,
> but not everybody is
> interested in reading about your support to a war
> which I strongly
> oppose, and not because I am in favor of peace, but
> because I think USA
> are behaving against right and simply for economic
> imperialism.
>
> I respect your feelings, but as we are neutral,
> please keep your ideas
> to the private.
>
> Reverenter
>
> Gallus Solaris Alexander
> Bononia
> Italia
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <fraelov@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 11:41:01 -0000

Salvete,

in the last year the Curule Aedile Ceaso Fabius Quintilianus didn't
organize bloodly games. As chief of his Cohors I have organised only
Ludi Circenses, the virtual charriot races where the players don't
die!

In the last year some Aedile didn't organize Ludi. So they didn't
celebrate the religious rituals.

In the last year Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus was the first
Magistrate to organize real and wonderful games. Before Quintilianus,
nobody have organized Ludi these, several didn't organize Ludi,
nobody have organized bloodly games or religious rituals.

What do you think? Maybe the follow Illustris Magistrates hurted the
Gods, changed the religious rituals, offended or removed or replaced
the Religio Romana, encouraged the citizens to derespect the Religio
and the Gods?
This is the list of this Illustri Magistrates:

- Illustrus Ambrosius Silvanius Virbius
- Illustrus Marcus Martianus Gangalius
- Illustrus Flavius Vedius Germanicus
- YOU : Quintus Fabius Maximus
- Illustrus Antonius Gryllus Graecus
- Illustrus Gaius Africanus Secundus Germanicus
- Illustrus Marcus Octavius Germanicus
- Illustrus Quintus Gaufridus Canus
- Illustra Iulia Ovidia Luna
- Illustrus Marius Cornelius Scipio
- Illustrus Titus Sertorius Albinus
- Illustrus Marcus Arminius Maior
- Illustrus Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
- Illustrus Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

[to this honorable Citizens, please don't feel hurted, mine is not an
attack against you. This is only my defense.]

I want you, Illustri Magistrates, explain me in a detailed and
reasonable way:
what and where I have hurted the Religio Romana?
how I have encouraged the citizens to not respect the Religio?
how these Ludi have to run?
why you don't have critic the past Aediles?
where I have cracked the pacts of the Gods?
how I have cracked my Oath?
why the Collegium don't give to the Aediles the list of official
religious Ludi in the beginning of each year?
why you didn't contact me privately using a not noble way to attack
me?
what is your next step?
why you think the neutral and eternal idea of respect and peace is
less important of your political games?
why you think the neutral and eternal idea of respect and peace is
less important of bloodly games?

If you give me and to all the Citizens reasonable answers I'll ready
to give you my toga and leave my Offices as Curule Aedile and
Propraetor. Because I think the respect for the people and the idea
of peace are the most important things in this moment and I can't be
in a State where they aren't.

Otherwise, I'll give you only the results of the games without
histories. They are virtual and in this way we can imagine the most
hard and bad bloodly scenes of violence not hurting teh coscience of
several citizens and not hurting the Gods.

I ask the intervention of Illustri higher Magistrates too to clarify
this controversy.

Valete
Fr. Apulus CAesar
Senior Curule Aedile


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/5/03 2:32:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
postumius@g...
> writes:
>
>
> > I realize the religious implications of the declaration, but if
that is of
> > concern, why could it not have been brought to the attention of
the
> > involved Aediles in private, instead of publicly flaming our
esteemed
> > magistrates; lest we all forget that these magistrates were
elected by the
> > populace, and that these noble men took the position willingly,
rather than
> > being forced to accept their positions.
> >
> >
>
> Which was why they were protested publicly. Indeed I and the
Pontifix
> Maximus had cooperated with the Aediles for the Megalesia, we asked
the
> Priestess to compose a ritual,
> and we encouraged participation.
> However had the Aediles made us privy to their plans beforehand we
would have
> told them
> they were in violation of II I of the Constitution:
> "No elected official shall use their elected powers or political
status
> as a means of working to undermine, remove, or replace the Religio
Romana as
> the State Religion of Nova Roma."
>
> By ignoring the actual "spilling" of blood, they are undermining
the
> significance of the rituals and the purpose of the Ludi.
>
> III "No Citizen or Magistrate shall actively encourage public
disrespect for
> the Gods of Rome, or actively advocate the non-practice of the
Religio"
>
> By making a political statement and by-passing the College they are
in
> violation
> of this clause.
>
> Truthfully had the Aediles approached the College beforehand, the
PM, the
> State Augur, and the Pontiffs would have said no. And this sad
spectacle
> could have been
> avoided. But they did not. I was hoping that the rebuke was
enough. It
> wasn't.
> So now the College will have to take other steps.
> Thank you for your questions, Postumius.
>
> Valete
>
> FABIVS
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <fraelov@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 11:46:14 -0000

Salve Illustrus Drusus,

I'm very sorruto have hurted you, your Family and your Nation, I
don't want to do it.
I want to say only that the civilian people are innocent because what
can do an iraqi children against? I don't think Iraq governators and
soldiers are innocent, but I think the civilian and the children are
innocent.
Please, take my apologies, really I don't want insulte you and your
Family, I want the peace everywhere and for everybody.

VAle
Fr. Apulus Caesar

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Salve,
> The statement hit me on two fronts, first of all as
> Senator Sulla has stated it is offensive to the
> Religio to change the Games. They are for the Gods not
> for the entertainment of men. (Though men may find
> entertainment in our offering of games to the Gods.)
>
> The Second is far more personal and it concerns the
> accusation of "bombing inocent civilians". That is a
> slur against my Macronation and my Family.
>
> The United States has spent Billions of Dollars
> developing accurate weapons, and these weapons are far
> more expensive than the old fashioned dumb bombs. If
> the United States wanted to target civilians we could
> have sent wave after wave of bombers armed with dumb
> bombs and after 17 days half the population of Baghdad
> would be dead or injured.
>
> Last week, during a fight for a bridge over the
> Euphrates the Iraqis were using Iraqi civilians as
> human shields. A woman broke away from the Iraqi
> forces, and was shot in the back by the soldiers of
> her country. She lay wounded in the middle of a
> battle. An American Captain risked his life under fire
> from the Iraqis to drag that civilian to safety. This
> is one of the people that the mindless accusation of
> "bombing inocent civilians" is aimed at.
>
> I Am a Vetran. My Son is a Vetran. Both of my brothers
> are Vetrans. My Father was a Vetran. All Three of his
> brothers are Vetrans. One of My Grandfathers was a
> Vetran who lost a leg in the battles to liberate Roma
> from the Nazis. My Nephew is serving in Iraq now. The
> United States has never fought a war that member of my
> family didn't serve in.
>
> When you slander the United States Military you are
> also slandering my family. Over the years I have
> learned to ignore the ignorant accusations from
> mindless mobs howling in the streets, but I damn well
> don't intend to ignore something that is insulting to
> my Family, to my Macronation, and to the Religio in
> offical anouncements from Magistrates of Nova Roma.
>
> --- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave, Sp. Postumius,
> >
> > The problem is how can a man tamper and corrupt the
> > Religio. I am
> > activately waiting for our Pontifex Maximus to
> > return from his trip to
> > comment on this considering that our only Augur has
> > asked for a veto, and
> > another Pontiff has voiced strong displeasure. I
> > hope that the Magistrates
> > who are entitled to veto this "declaration" might
> > for the sake of the
> > Religio veto this measure before the CP are
> > summoned, but if not I will wait
> > for the Pontifex Maximus to intervene, and ask him
> > privately via email to
> > intervene.
> >
> > This attempt to dilute the Religo's practices and
> > rituals is a corruption of
> > the offical Religion of Nova Roma, in my opinion.
> > And as I have spoken out
> > when I have felt that members of Xtianity have been
> > criticised, I am now
> > speaking out just as vehmently when I see the
> > Official Religion in Nova Roma
> > being corrupted by men who do not have the
> > knowledge, authority or
> > relationship with the Gods.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Spurius Postumius" <postumius@g...>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
> >
> >
> > > Salve Senator Sulla,
> > >
> > > Since this is about the Religio, I do indeed
> > understand the issue. I
> > myself am not entirely happy with the tampering with
> > the Ludi, but I also
> > cannot disagree with Aedile Caesar in his attempt to
> > respect the opinions of
> > some of the citizens. But I don't think you
> > understand what I tried to say.
> > I'm saying that if one has a problem with another's
> > actions, why not first
> > take it up in private before bringing things into
> > the public forum. While I
> > cannot say that this course of action was not taken,
> > I just want to make the
> > point that the course of action would have most
> > likely been more effective
> > if taken up in private first. And, to add, if there
> > is that much of a
> > problem with the action taken by the Aedile, why not
> > take it, after bringing
> > it privately to the Aedile's attention, to the
> > Collegium Pontificium. The
> > Religio is their responsibility.
> > >
> > > Finally, to end things, the Aedile, I don't think,
> > was trying to please
> > everyone, as that is almost impossible; rather, I
> > think he tried to respect
> > some of our citizens. Just count yourself with those
> > who were not pleased,
> > and move on.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > Sp. Postumius Tubertus
> > >
> > > "In domo maiorum vivimus."
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Nova Roman Controversy
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT)

I Will accept you apology.

Peace is a noble goal, but it something that the
people of Iraq haven't known for the past 35 years,
since the Ba'ath took power. Thier own government has
waged war against them. The day the Ba'ath siezed
power they rounded up 8 Iraqi Jews, part of a
community that had lived there since the Babylonian
captivity in Biblical times, and publicly hung them as
"spies" for Isreal. There are 24 Million Iraqis living
in Iraq and 6 million Iraqis living outside the
nation. A Fifth of the population has fled the 35 year
long war the Ba'ath has waged against the Iraqi
people. Between 1987 and 1990 an estimated 200,000
Kurdish civilians were slaughtered in the genocidal
campaign that earned "Chemical Ali" his nickname.
Between March and October of 1991 an estimated 100,000
Shia Arabs were slaughtered. The Marsh Arabs were one
of the oldest cultures on the planet, living in the
Marshes along the southern Tigris and Euphrates Rivers
throughout recorded History. In addition to murdering
tens of thousands of them, the Ba'ath destroyed the
Marshes that they lived in turning thousands of square
kilometers of Wetlands into salt poisoned desserts to
deprive them of a sanctuary from the Regime's forces.

March 20th isn't a date that the people's of Iraq lost
Peace. They hadn't known it since 1968. The end of
this war will give them a peace that they haven't
known for a generation.

To those who question American motives in occupying
Iraq, Colin Powell said it best. In response to a
question posed to him at a conference in England by
the Archbishop of Canterbury suggesting that America
just wanted to expand its influence and empire, the
Secretary of State had this to say: "Over the years,
the United States has sent many of its fine young men
and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond
our borders. The only amount of land we have ever
asked in return is enough to bury those who did not
return."


--- Franciscus Apulus Caesar <fraelov@yahoo.it> wrote:
> Salve Illustrus Drusus,
>
> I'm very sorruto have hurted you, your Family and
> your Nation, I
> don't want to do it.
> I want to say only that the civilian people are
> innocent because what
> can do an iraqi children against? I don't think Iraq
> governators and
> soldiers are innocent, but I think the civilian and
> the children are
> innocent.
> Please, take my apologies, really I don't want
> insulte you and your
> Family, I want the peace everywhere and for
> everybody.
>
> VAle
> Fr. Apulus Caesar
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius
> Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> > Salve,
> > The statement hit me on two fronts, first of all
> as
> > Senator Sulla has stated it is offensive to the
> > Religio to change the Games. They are for the Gods
> not
> > for the entertainment of men. (Though men may find
> > entertainment in our offering of games to the
> Gods.)
> >
> > The Second is far more personal and it concerns
> the
> > accusation of "bombing inocent civilians". That is
> a
> > slur against my Macronation and my Family.
> >
> > The United States has spent Billions of Dollars
> > developing accurate weapons, and these weapons are
> far
> > more expensive than the old fashioned dumb bombs.
> If
> > the United States wanted to target civilians we
> could
> > have sent wave after wave of bombers armed with
> dumb
> > bombs and after 17 days half the population of
> Baghdad
> > would be dead or injured.
> >
> > Last week, during a fight for a bridge over the
> > Euphrates the Iraqis were using Iraqi civilians as
> > human shields. A woman broke away from the Iraqi
> > forces, and was shot in the back by the soldiers
> of
> > her country. She lay wounded in the middle of a
> > battle. An American Captain risked his life under
> fire
> > from the Iraqis to drag that civilian to safety.
> This
> > is one of the people that the mindless accusation
> of
> > "bombing inocent civilians" is aimed at.
> >
> > I Am a Vetran. My Son is a Vetran. Both of my
> brothers
> > are Vetrans. My Father was a Vetran. All Three of
> his
> > brothers are Vetrans. One of My Grandfathers was a
> > Vetran who lost a leg in the battles to liberate
> Roma
> > from the Nazis. My Nephew is serving in Iraq now.
> The
> > United States has never fought a war that member
> of my
> > family didn't serve in.
> >
> > When you slander the United States Military you
> are
> > also slandering my family. Over the years I have
> > learned to ignore the ignorant accusations from
> > mindless mobs howling in the streets, but I damn
> well
> > don't intend to ignore something that is insulting
> to
> > my Family, to my Macronation, and to the Religio
> in
> > offical anouncements from Magistrates of Nova
> Roma.
> >
> > --- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
> > wrote:
> > > Ave, Sp. Postumius,
> > >
> > > The problem is how can a man tamper and corrupt
> the
> > > Religio. I am
> > > activately waiting for our Pontifex Maximus to
> > > return from his trip to
> > > comment on this considering that our only Augur
> has
> > > asked for a veto, and
> > > another Pontiff has voiced strong displeasure.
> I
> > > hope that the Magistrates
> > > who are entitled to veto this "declaration"
> might
> > > for the sake of the
> > > Religio veto this measure before the CP are
> > > summoned, but if not I will wait
> > > for the Pontifex Maximus to intervene, and ask
> him
> > > privately via email to
> > > intervene.
> > >
> > > This attempt to dilute the Religo's practices
> and
> > > rituals is a corruption of
> > > the offical Religion of Nova Roma, in my
> opinion.
> > > And as I have spoken out
> > > when I have felt that members of Xtianity have
> been
> > > criticised, I am now
> > > speaking out just as vehmently when I see the
> > > Official Religion in Nova Roma
> > > being corrupted by men who do not have the
> > > knowledge, authority or
> > > relationship with the Gods.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Spurius Postumius" <postumius@g...>
> > > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
> > >
> > >
> > > > Salve Senator Sulla,
> > > >
> > > > Since this is about the Religio, I do indeed
> > > understand the issue. I
> > > myself am not entirely happy with the tampering
> with
> > > the Ludi, but I also
> > > cannot disagree with Aedile Caesar in his
> attempt to
> > > respect the opinions of
> > > some of the citizens. But I don't think you
> > > understand what I tried to say.
> > > I'm saying that if one has a problem with
> another's
> > > actions, why not first
> > > take it up in private before bringing things
> into
> > > the public forum. While I
> > > cannot say that this course of action was not
> taken,
> > > I just want to make the
> > > point that the course of action would have most
> > > likely been more effective
> > > if taken up in private first. And, to add, if
> there
> > > is that much of a
> > > problem with the action taken by the Aedile, why
> not
> > > take it, after bringing
> > > it privately to the Aedile's attention, to the
> > > Collegium Pontificium. The
> > > Religio is their responsibility.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, to end things, the Aedile, I don't
> think,
> > > was trying to please
> > > everyone, as that is almost impossible; rather,
> I
> > > think he tried to respect
> > > some of our citizens. Just count yourself with
> those
> > > who were not pleased,
> > > and move on.
> > > >
> > > > Vale,
> > > >
> > > > Sp. Postumius Tubertus
> > > >
> > > > "In domo maiorum vivimus."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:
> > > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > Roman Citizen
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators,
> forms, and more
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>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The temple of Magna Mater on the Palatine (long note)
From:	"Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:02:23 +0000

M IVL PERVSIANVS QVIRITIBVS SPD

avete omnes,
today is, as proclaimed by our Senior Aedile Franciscus Apulus Caesar, the
archeological day dedicated to the Magna Mater and her temple on the Palatine
hill, Rome. This is a report I've written these last days. In a few days
a more friendly version will be published (with pictures and links) on FAC
Cohors site.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
One year later, what?s going on?

Almost one year has passed since my first recognition to the area of the
temple, on the Palatine hill. Since then I have learned a lot about this
topic, and most of all, I was appointed to follow this project on the behalf
of Cohors Aedelis of Franciscus Apulus Caesar.
Last year, as Scriba ad Historiam Provinciae Italiae I provided a first
report to Cohors Aedilis Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
(See at http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/templemagnamater.htm).


What did we figure out last year? All the south-west area of the Palatine
hill is the object, since 1977, of systematic surveying directed by Professor
Patrizio Pensabene Perez (with the collaboration of numerous graduated and
students of the Department of Archaeological and Anthropological Historical
Sciences of the University of Rome "La Sapienza"). Unfortunately it is still
not possible to visit that area as it remains all fenced and under restoration.
At the entrance of the area there is still a sign stating jobs of removal
of asbestos materials in progress.
A telephone call with Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma, made two weeks
ago has confirmed this situation.

What is changed now, one year after? Well, this report is more aimed to
the archeological news about the temple. We feel like having as much information
as possible about the temple as in a few weeks we look forward to a big
event.

I think I?m not wrong if I say that for the first time Nova Roma is having
a contact with the managers of a Roman monument.
Later this month Propraetor Italiae and myself, together with other Italic
citizens, will have an appointment with D.sa Irene Iacopi, managing director
of Roman Forum and Palatine archeological areas, to offer our economical
help to preserve the temple and any other kind of possible relations. The
creation of an Aedilian fund is also aimed to this purpose. It?s our intention
to understand better what both sides can earn. There are some possibilities
enlisted by the Italian law, which allows private citizens, alone or associated,
to collaborate with the Ministero per i Beni e le attività culturali (for
cultural assets and activities) as written in the Decreto legislativo 368/98,
art.10, comma 1.

Questions of importance are as follows:

a. What are the rules for fundraising?
b. What forms of control are needed?
c. What merits could Nova Roma display?

The Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma, addressed in Piazza S.Maria in
Nova 53, will hold the meeting on April 14 (http://www.archeorm.arti.beniculturali.it/sar2000,
email: info@archeorm.arti.beniculturali.it).


The History of Magna Mater

The Cult of Magna Mater, the Great Mother, is probably the oldest religion
of all. The earliest stone-age sculptures depict the mother- goddess, as
an idol found in Catal Hüyük, six thousands years old. In a later form she
became a seated woman flanked by two leopards. The area of the Aegean Sea
and especially the Cretan Isle, organized by a matriarchal order during
the prehistoric age, adored a Mother Goddess as dispenser of fecundity.
She was adored as Cybele, worshipped with this name in Greece, Phrygia and
Anatolia. On the banks of the Euphrates as Koubaba and near the Babylonians
as Damkina, which means "married with the earth and the sky". Other names
were Gaia, Ga or Ge (from greek Mother Earth), Terra (in Latin) and Gatumdu
(her Sumerian name); she was also called Ishtar in Akkadia and finally Isis
in Egypt, not saying that behind her name there was also the oriental goddess
Shub-Niggurath.

In nearly all creation myths of all cultures she appears to be the eternal,
not born, just existing from the beginning of time. She gives the earth
its shape. She is the bearer of the world and the population of this planet
(plants, animals and humans).
The Romans identified this goddess with the Greek Rhea, and called her the
Magna Mater, the Great Mother.
Although the priests of the cult were men who had castrated themselves in
front of her image, but most of the followers were women. They worshipped
the goddess in different temples, independent each other, although some
temples had more influence than others did. They were mainly in Phrygia,
Greece and Italy.
In Pessinus, in northern Asia, a simulacrum of the divinity was worshipped:
one black stone of conical shape, probably a meteorite. Another major temple
was in Delphi, which was later re-consecrated to Apollo and became much
more famous for his oracle.
In each temple the High Priestess had the greatest status, followed by the
Archigalli. Below in status was the ordinary priestesses and lowest the
galli.


The Roman Magna Mater

The Second Punic War had put in crisis the republican Rome and its religious
structure too. In the attempt of recovering the support of the Gods, which
appeared to be lost, the cult of the Magna Mater was introduced in 204 BC,
after the consultation of the Sibylline Books.
It?s also believed that the patricians imported the cult of Magna Mater
explicitly so that their social class would have a goddess that served some
of the functions that Ceres did for the plebeians. As a result, there was
sharp antagonism between the two cults, becoming rivals separated only by
the social classes they served. The same year the temple of Magna Mater
was dedicated, a new festival dedicated to Ceres was established. This festival
was called the Ieinium Cereris, and may have represented a plebeian response
to the new patrician goddess.
The embassy was sent to the king of Pergamus, in which territory the sanctuary
was located. Having obtained the delivery of the simulacrum, it was then
carried and loaded on a ship to Rome. The simulacrum was one pointed black
stone of conical shape, called acus, which represented the goddess. On its
arrival it was welcomed into the city by a vir optimus, or best man, selected
from one of the most distinguished patrician families. The matrons that
escorted the goddess on the road from Ostia to Rome were entirely drawn
from the patrician class. Since its arrival in Rome until the completation
of an appropriated temple, the black stone was kept in the temple of Victory
(the Aedes Victoriae), on the western side of the Palatine hill.
(Livy Ab urbe condita XXIX.37.2; XXXVI.36)

Between 204 and 191 BC the sanctuary was built in the same area in order
to receive the acus. Probably that place was chosen also because of the
proximity to the cave of the recovery of the twins, the Lupercale, as mountains
and caves were sacred to the Magna Mater, and her temples were often built
near them in the tradition. It was dedicated on April 11 191 BC, by the
praetor Marcus Iunius Brutus, on which occasion the ludi Megalenses, or
Megalesia, were instituted and celebrated in front of the temple (Livy loc.
cit.; Fast. Praen. ap. Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum I". p. 235, 314-315,
cf. p. 251=VI. 32498; Fast. Ant. ap. NS 1921, 91; Cicero de har. resp. 24;
cf. for site Ovidius Fast. II. 55; Martial VII.73.3).

In 111 BC there was a first fire in the Temple of the Magna Mater when the
statue of Quinta Cloelia within the temple was uninjured. It was caused
by the aedile Quintus Memmius, who took with him the black stone.

The temple was restored by Metellus Numidicus, consul in 110 BC, and the
cult resumed in an official and pacific version.

Burned again in 3 BC, it was destroyed by mysterious circumstances.

Augustus restored it in 3 AD. He also showed his closeness to the Religio
of Cybele (the other name commonly used in Rome) and his wife Livia was
resembled to the goddess. This worship has a large growing since the end
of the Imperial era (or since the interdiction of the paganism). After that
the traces of the cult of the black stone were lost.
(Val. Max. I.8.II; Obseq. 99; Ovidius Fast.IV. 347-348; Mon. Anc.IV.8)

According to writings about Roman Regiones, the temple was still standing
unharmed in the fourth century (Not.Reg.X).

During Roman History there are other references by classic authors:
- The temple is found in Cassius Dio (XLVIII.43.4), Juvenal (IX.23) as a
place of assignation, and in the third century (Hist. Aug. Claud. 4; Aurel.
I).
- The stone needle itself is described by a late writer (Arnob. adv. gentes
vii. 49) as small and set in a silver statue of the goddess (cf. Herodianus
ab exc. d. Marci i. II; Arnob. v. 5). It was perhaps removed by Elagabalus
to his temple (q.v.) on the Palatine (Hist. Aug. Elag. 3; cf. LR 134-138;
but cf. BC 1883, 211; HJ 53-54, n. 44).

Archaeological evidences of the temple

At the top of the Scalae Caci and behind the area of the Romulean huts,
on the southwestern corner of the Palatine, stand the ruins of the ancient
temple. Nowadays only a large brick box is visible in a squared work with
a staircase inside, on which a small wood of elm-oaks has grown.

These ruins consist of a massive podium made of irregular pieces of volcanic
tufo and peperino laid in thick mortar, and fragments of columns and entablature.
The building presents its own guideline (NorthEast - SouthWest, which was
decided by cultural reasons), different from the previous one of 191 BC.
Moreover a great courtyard occupied a large portion of the front space and
the western area of the temple, while to the East eased a connection with
the area of the nearby temple of Victory.
All this was inside of a wide rectangular area closed on the west flank
of the temple. This is because the courtyard had to be classified for a
specific function, probably connected to the theatrical events of the Ludi.
The structure shows the need of great bathtubs for the rituals of the cult.
The priests of Magna Mater used these when they washed her image in the
sacred waters of the Almon River during the festivals of the Goddess.
The temple by Augustus (the last version and how we see it today) was created
on a high base with big steps. The great concrete podium which, with the
foundations laying directly on the cliff of the Palatine, was 9 Mts. (29.5
feet) high. With the reconstruction of temple by concrete and the elevation
of the courtyard, the squared bathtub and the accessing angled scales were
obliterated. A new great rectangular concrete basin (16,50 x 3 Mts., 54.13
x 9.8 feet) was constructed in the West area of the podium of the temple.
It is evident that the restoration of that period was carried out using
materials from the original structure.

The dimensions of the podium are 33,40 x 19,35 Mts. (110 x 63 feet). The
walls are 3,84 Mts. (12.60 feet) thick on the sides and 5,50 Mts. (18.04
feet) in the rear, but this unusual thickness is due to the fact that the
rear wall is double, with an air space, 1,80 Mts. (5.91 feet) wide, between
the two parts. This wall was faced on the outside with stucco, not with
opus quadratum. The walls of the cell were somewhat thinner than the podium
ones, forming a smaller rectangle (32 x 64 Mts. = 105 x 210 feet), lying
on a high covered base with lava stone blocks. From the rear wall of the
cell projects the base of a pedestal on which the stone needle probably
stood.

While the previous described is the wider consideration, there is considerable
divergence of opinion as to the date of the podium: some attribute it to
110 BC, and believe that the architectural members were given only a new
coat of stucco under Augustus. Fiechter assigns the whole to the middle
of the first century BC, but it does not seem at all necessary to suppose
that Augustus would not have used peperino coated with stucco.

There weren't columns on the sides (prostylos) but only six columns (hexastylos)
in the front of the Corinthian order. And a plinth in masonry for the cult
of the statue, was placed perhaps in the inside of a sacellum on the bottom
wall (as said before). It was approached by a flight of steps extending
entirely across the front. The relationship between cell, pronao and front
body is 4:2:1. The rest of masonry are in opus reticulata and built after
the fire of 111 BC: the columns in lava stone lying beside podium are of
Augustan age. On the forehead of the pronao a terrace, supported by parallels
walls on turf made blocks, datable to III century BC. For following generations
this last structure was likely reused for several shops. They were placed
on a covered inner path that crossed the area.

Is this the real temple of Magna Mater?

Such a reconstruction has been confirmed as a relief of the first imperial
age that reproduces a procession in the front of the temple. This relief
is now at Villa Medici in Rome (http://www.villamedici.it/). This temple
was formerly attributed to the Ara Pacis.

This is commonly thought to be the temple of Magna Mater owing to an identification
of a coin of the elder Faustina (not possible to see the picture.) This
represents a temple of the Corinthian order, with curved roof, and a flight
of steps on which is a statue of Cybele with a turreted crown enthroned
between lions.

Recent diggings have characterized, to the east of the temple, the foundations
and the rests of the podium of another temple identified as the one of the
Victory. It was built in 294 BC by Consul Lucius Postumius Megellus and
to which Marcus Porcius Cato in the 193 BC added a place dedicated to the
Victoria Virgo. As said there was conserved the acus previously.

Inscriptions and objects found in the area make it extremely probable, if
not for sure.
Inscriptions referring to Magna Mater, especially one with a dedication
to the M(ater) D(eum) M(agna) I(daea), goddess of Mount Ida, a mount in
Phrygia by Pessinunt.
(CIL VI. 496, 1040, 3702= 30967; NS 1896, 186; cf. CIL XII.405),

Also found was a portion of a colossal female figure seated on a throne
and a fragment of a base with the paws of lions, the regular attendants
of the goddess.

Diggings are supposed to have recovered several votive terracotta of the
first age of the temple. Thanks to them many interesting aspects of the
cult have been cleared, like the importance of the spring celebration during
the equinox.

To say the least, a story says that in some cases hidden somewhere would
be located the acus, the famous black stone, itself recovered during the
diggings.

NR declaration & edict about the MM project

Nova Roma has shown its duty toward the temple of Magna Mater through two
main acts.

JOINT DECLARATIO ABOUT THE TEMPLE OF MAGNA MATER IN ROMA
March 8 2002

I. Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (Aedilian site, Thule
site), Honorable Caius Cornelius Puteanus (Germania Inferior site), Honorable
Claudia Cornelia (Germania Inferior site), Illustrus Franciscus Apulus Caesar
(Italia site), Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus (Finnicae site), Honorable
Emilia Curia Finnica (Finnicae site and Academia site), Illustrus Antonius
Gryllus Graecus (Lusitania site), Illustra Iulia Cocceia and Illustrus Sextus
Apollonius Scipio (Gallia site) have formed an alliance to further the correct
restoration and care for the Temple of Magna Mater in Rome.

II. Each of the above promise to place a picture of the Temple of Magna
Mater in Rome on "their" Nova Roman web-site (Aedilian,
Provincial or Regional) with an inquiry asking all that visit their web-site
to contribute to the correct restoration and care of the Temple of Magna
Mater in Rome. The web-site shall also have the address of the Propraetor
of Italia, so that it is possible to contact him to send funds to him to
enable Provincia Italia to execute this joint promise. This web-page shall
be designed by Illustrus Franciscus Apulus Caesar and made available by
him to all the co-signers of this declaratio.

Signed in March the 8th, in the year of the consulship of Marcus
Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, 2755 AUC. by:
Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
Illustrus Franciscus Apulus Caesar,
Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus,
Honorable Emilia Curia Finnica,
Illustrus Antonius Gryllus Graecus,
Illustra Iulia Cocceia,
Sextus Apollonius Scipio.

EDICTVM PROPRAETORICVM V - REFECTIO TEMPLI MAGNAE MATRIS
May 7 2002

Italian version:
Ex Officio Propraetoris Provinciae Italiae

I. Con Questo Edictum la Provincia Italia ribadisce ufficialmente l'impegno
assunto nella JOINT DECLARATIO ABOUT THE TEMPLE OF MAGNA MATER IN ROMA promossa
dalla Cohors Aedilis di Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, firmata dal Propraetor
in carica e visionabile all'indirizzo http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/megalesia/temple.htm

II. La Provincia Italia istituirà un fondo, con le modalità ritenute più
convenienti, per la ricezione della donazioni provenienti dai cittadini
di Nova Roma a favore della ricostruzione e della manutenzione delle rovine
del Tempio di Magna Mater sul Palatino a Roma.

III. Per favorire la pubblicità del progetto al più ampio pubblico, sarà
predisposto un apposito sito Internet all'interno di http://italia.novaroma.org
contenente tutte le informazioni storiche sul tempio, i dati per la ricezione
delle donazioni e gli aggiornamenti sull'andamento dei lavori.

IV. La Provincia Italia designerà un magistrato provinciale come responsabile
del progetto. Egli dovrà ricercare notizie storiche ed archeologiche sul
Tempio di Magna Mater, curare i contatti con i donatori e con gli enti pubblici
manutentori delle rovine, conservare i fondi raccolti ed individuare un'associazione
o ente locale per la manutenzione del Tempio.
Egli sarà anche il supervisore per Nova Roma dell'andamento dei lavori.
Altri magistrati provinciali potranno essere coinvolti nel progetto a supporto
del responsabile.

V. Questo Edictum ha effetto immediato. Promulgato alle Nonis Maiis MMDCCLVI
a.u.c. (May 7, 2002), nell'anno del Consolato di Marcus Octavius Germanicus
e Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.

VI. Questo Edictum ha l'approvazione della Curia Italica (04/05/2002, http://italia.novaroma.org/curia/r30042002.txt)

Curiae Post Scriptum: Il Propraetor Provinciae Italiae, quando lo riterrà
opportuno, emanerà un Edictum contenente le indicazioni precise relative
all'Ente che si occuperà dell'opera di restauro e alle modalità di raccolta
delle offerte di denaro a favore del progetto.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae

English version:
I. With this Edictum, Provincia Italia officially undertake the commitment
expressed in the JOINT DECLARATIO ABOUT THE TEMPLE OF MAGNA MATER IN ROMA,
promoted by Cohors Aedilis of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, and signed by our
current Propraetor (see at http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/megalesia/temple.htm)

II. Provincia Italia will create a fund, following the most convenient methods,
to receive money from Nova Roma citizens explicitly given for the restoration
and management of the ruins of the Temple of Magna Mater on the Palatine
hill, Rome.

III. A new Internet site at http://italia.novaroma.org will be created to
advertise the project, to let it be known to as much as people are possible.
It will contain all the historical information about the temple, data about
fundraising and update about the working progress.

IV. Provincia Italia will appoint a provincial magistrate as responsible
of the project. He shall research historical and archeological news about
the Temple of Magna Mater, paying attention to the money givers and keeping
contacts with public organisms managing the ruins, saving money raised and
finding an association or local administration for the restoring the Temple.
He will be also a supervisor for Nova Roma about the restoration and other
kind of works. Other provincial magistrates could be involved in the project
in the future to support the supervisor.

V. This Edictum is immediately valid. Given in the Nonis Maiis MMDCCLVI
a.u.c. (May 7, 2002), in the year of the Consulship of Marcus Octavius Germanicus
and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.

VI. This Edictum has the approval of Curia Italica (04/05/2002, http://italia.novaroma.org/curia/r30042002.txt)

Curiae Post Scriptum: Propraetor Provinciae Italiae, up to his own decision,
will emanate an Edictum with the right indications about the administration
which is going to restore the monument, about rules for fundraising about
this project.

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae

Useful licteral sources

Samuel Ball Platner,
A Topographical Dictionary of Ancient Rome.
(London: Humphrey Milford. Oxford University Press. 1929)

Pensabene Patrizio,
Scavi nell'area del tempio della Vittoria e del santuario della Magna Mater
sul Palatino
(Rome: Archeologia Laziale IX, 1989)

Lynn E. Roller,
In Search of God the Mother The Cult of Anatolian Cybele (Berkeley-Los Angeles:
University of California Press, 1999)


Sites & articles

Magna Mater, The Great mother
(http://inanna.virtualave.net/mother.html)

Sophia Eva Kharis? site at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2179/magna_mater.htm

By Anders Sandberg at http://hem.bredband.net/arenamontanus/Mage/magna.html

By Alicia Ashby at
http://students.roanoke.edu/groups/relg211/ashby/Index.html


Marcus Iulius Perusianus
-------------------------
Scriba ad historiam Provinciae Italiae
Scriba Aedilis Historicus Primus
Scriba Curatoris Differum

-------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/m_iulius
http://italia.novaroma.org
http://italia.novaroma.org/fac
-------------------------
AEQVAM MEMENTO REBVS IN ARDVIS SERVARE MENTEM

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Neutrality and a Nova Roman Controversy
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:49:59 +0200

Salvete Quirites!

When it comes to the statement of the Aedilian Cohors this is my stand point:

1. I acknowledge the right of any citizen to openly declare a private
standpoint in any Forum. But the statement of the Aedilian Cohors
isn't private as I see it, as it was signed Ex officio. This means
that it could be vetoed.

2. The Ludi are already bloodless as they are virtual. To me it
doesn't seem to be such a big change to not tell any stories of death.

3. I agree that it is hard to see how these deathless games could be
any more wrong than the peaceful games organised by me last year and
the fact that there were _no_ games for many year before.

4. I don't see the Aedilian statement as something that goes against
the neutrality declaration as it doesn't take a stand for either side.

5. My knowledge about the Religio isn't so good that I can decide if
this Aedilian statement is in anyway against the will of the Gods. It
doesn't seem probable to me that this would be hurting the relation
between the Gods and the Roman State.

6. As my Consular Colleague, Illustrus Titus Labienus Fortunatus, I
will wait for the Collegium Pontificum as a whole to take a stand
officially or our Augur to report ill omens with regards to the ludi
because of the Aedilian statement.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] MEGALESIA RACES (quarters)
From:	"Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@telefonica.net>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 13:56:49 -0000

AVETE, QUIRITES!

The Races of the Megalesia Ludi are here!!
Who will be the champion this year?
What Factio will get the victory for its hall of awards?

Reds, blues, whites and greens want to offer a great show in honor of
the Magna Mater Cybeles.

Gods bless their chariots and horses!

This year the commentator of the races will be the illustrious Gallus
Minucius Iovinus. The Aedilis Curulis and I, as scribe of the ludi,
thank before the citizenship his great effort and good work.
Gratias tibi agimus, Iovinus!


Salix Galaicus
Scriba primus ludorum


And now... the races!

--------------------- QUARTERS -------------------------

Race 1

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa.
Driver: Orion.
Chariot: Imperator Invictus
Tactics: always 2
Factio: Albata
-------------
Titus Licinius Crassus
Driver: Equus Magnus
Chariot: Orionis Draco
Tactics for qua and semi: 6
Tactics for final: 2
Factio: Veneta
-----------------
Lucius Arminius Faustus (Aedilis Plebeius)
Driver: Tleptolemus
Chariot: Cerealia
Tactics: always 3
Factio: Russata
--------------------
Tiberius Annaeus Otho--He´s the current green champion!!
Driver: Septimius Raurax
Chariot: Basilea
Tactics for qua and semis: 6
Tactics for the final: 1
Factio: Praesina
--------------------

Hello folks, and welcome to the first qualifying heats of the first
Ludi of 2756 auc. This is the competition where the fastest chariot
and it's driver eventually will be crowned.
Down at the circus we can see that the sky above is clearly blue and
filled with small, fluffy clouds. The sharp sounds of flags banging
in the wind echoes through the circus as the spectators anticipation
rises. Down at the starting-line the competitors are getting ready.
At the innermost lane stands the chariot Imperator Invictus, owned by
Illustrus Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa and driven by the skilled Orion.
Next to him stands the chariot Orionis Draco, owned by Illustrus
Titus Licinius Crassus and driven by Equus Magnus. Next to him we
find the chariot Cerealia, carring lots of advertising banners for
the next ludi, saying: -MY LUDI! Of course it can't be mistaken that
the chariot is owned by the Plebeian Aedile, Illustrus Lucius
Arminius Faustus. His driver is Tleptolemus which waves cheerfully to
the crowd. Next to him on the outermost lane we find the chariot
Basilea, driven by Septimius Raurax and owned by Illustrus Tiberius
Annaeus Otho which is the current champion of factio Praesina.
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Orionis Draco gets a small advantage entering
the first curve, but is strongly challenged by Imperator Invictus
which passes the curve closely. The other two chariots is tightly
behind the leading Imperator Invictus and Orionis Draco. On the
straight line Cerealia gets up a good pace and is slowly comming up
next to the leading Imperator Invictus. But, hey what happens? As
only half a lap is remaining one of Cerealia's
advertising banners comes off and entangles Imperator Invictus
driver, Orion's face! Such an embarrassment... Orion simply can't see
the track and have to hold in his horse while the other chariots
rushes by him for he finish. Cerealia has a somewhat safe lead, but
the struggle for the second place is tough between Orionis Draco and
Basilea. As the finish line comes up closer and closer it seems as if
Basilea has got a small advantage over Orionis Draco. Cerealia
crosses the finish line as the winner and yes, it is
the green champion, Basilea that takes the second place before
Orionis Draco, which ends up third. The crowd applauds and cheers
loudly as Cerealia and Basilea makes it to the semifinals.

Results:
1st Cerealia
2nd Basilea
3th Imperator Invictus
4th Orionis Draco (accident)
Classified for semifinals: Cerealia and Basilea
---------------------------


Race 2

Caius Argentinus Cicero
Driver : Gordianus Camelius
Chariot : Australissima Orbis Terrae
Tactics for quartes and semi-finals : 2
Tactics for final : 4
Factio : Albata
----------------------
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Driver: Leonnatus
Chariot: Massilia
Tactics for qua and semis: 3
Tactics for final: 6
Factio: Russata
----------------------
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Driver : Victor Hispanicus
Chariot : Crux Australis
Tactics number for qua and semis: 6
Tactics number for the final: 1
Factio: Veneta
-------------------------
Caius Curius Saturninus
Driver: Euthymius
Chariot: Inexpugnabilis II
Tactics number for qua and semis: 1
Tactics number for the final.: 1
Factio: PRAESINA!
------------------------------

As the second race for the day is being prepared the sky above the
circus is still clearly blue and filled with those small, fluffy
clouds. The sharp sounds of flags banging in the wind echoes through
the circus as the spectators anticipation rises. Down at the starting-
line the competitors are getting ready. At the innermost lane stands
the chariot Australissima Orbis Terrae, competing for factio Albata,
owned by Illustrus Caius Argentinus Cicero and driven by the skilled
Gordianus Camelius. Next to him stands the chariot Massilia, owned by
Illustrus Titus Sextus Apollonius Scipio and driven by Leonnatus.
Next to him we find the chariot Crux Australis, owned by Illustrus
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus and driven by Victor Hispanicus which
cheerfully waves to the crowd. Next to him on the outermost lane we
find the chariot Inexpugnabilis II, driven by Euthymius and owned by
Illustrus Caius Curius Saturninus.
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Crux Australis and Inexpugnabilis II gets a
great start and directly takes the lead. Entering the first curve
they are strongly challenged by Australissima Orbis Terrae which
passes the curve closely. Massilia is currently on the last place,
but keeps a steady pace and is not far behind the rest of the field.
Crux Australis and Inexpugnabilis II are struggling hard to get the
upper hand on the straight lines, but loses their small advantages in
the curves to Australissima Orbis Terrae and Massilia. On the last
lap Crux Australis and Inexpugnabilis II are struggling really hard
on the straight line, but oh.. what happened there? It seems as if
the two leading chariots struggled too hard to make it first over the
finish line. Crux Australis and Inexpugnabilis II drove too closely
to eachother and banged toghether in a loud crunch! The driver of
Crux Australis, Victor Hispanicus looses the grip of his reins and
obiosly also over his chariot in
the tumult and one of Inexpugnabilis II wheels suddenly come of,
leaving Euthymius out of the race. Up for the finish only two
chariots remain; Australissima Orbis Terrae and Massilia. Aware of
the fact that he's already qualified to the semifinals Gordianus
Camelius, the driver of Australissima Orbis Terrae lowers his speed
and is passed by Massilia, which comes on strongly over the finish
line. The crowd applauds and cheers loudly as Massilia and
Australissima Orbis Terrae makes it to the semifinals.

Results:
1st Massilia
2nd Australissima Orbis Terrae
3th Crux Australis (accident)
4th Inexpugnabilis II (accident)
Classified for semifinals: Massilia and Australissima Orbis Terrae
------------------------

Race 3

Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
Driver: Marcus Atrox
Chariot Eversor
Tactics quarters and semi-finals: 6 5.
Tactics for the final: 1
Factio: Russata
------------------------------
Marcus Octavius Solaris
Driver: Damnator
Chariot: Gladius Albus
Tactics for all: 4
Factio: Albata
---------------------
Q. Salix Cantaber Uranicus.
Driver: Argonauta Aquilonius
Chariot: Phobos
Tactics 1/4 y 1/2: 2
Tactics for final: 1
Factio: Veneta
-------------------------
Tiberius Arminius Hyacinthus
Driver: Theodorus Citius
Chariot: Hyacintha Magna
Tactics number for quarters and semi-finals: 5
Tactics number for the final: 4
Factio Russata
--------------------------------------

As the second race for the day is being prepared the sky above the
circus is still clearly blue and filled with those small...fluffy
clouds. Down at the starting-line the competitors are getting ready.
At the innermost lane stands the chariot Eversor, competing for
factio Russata, owned by Illustrus Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix and
driven by the skilled Marcus Atrox. Next to him stands the chariot
Gladius Albus, owned by Illustrus Marcus Octavius Solaris and driven
by Damnator. Next to him we find the chariot Phobos, owned by
Illustrus Q. Salix Cantaber Uranicus and driven by Argonauta
Aquilonius which cheerfully waves to the crowd. Next to him on the
outermost lane we find the chariot Hyacintha Magna, driven by
Theodorus Citius and owned by
Illustrus Tiberius Arminius Hyacinthus.
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Eversor and Gladius Albus gets a great start
and directly takes a small lead. Entering the first curve Phobos
seriously challenges them both, but he is also struggling against
Hyacintha Magna, which tries to push Phobos to the wall of the
circus! Phobos have to slow down and Hyacintha Magna passes him
tightly. As Hyacintha Magna gets up side to side with Eversor and
Gladius Albus he is lashed by the driver of Gladius Albus, the brutal
Damnator. - Oohh... that's not fair play! But the audience cheers in
excitement as the race continues. Involved in their own
personal "vendetta" Hyacintha Magna and Gladius Albus is passed by
Phobos in a tight curve and up for the finish it's Phobos and Eversor
that's struggling to first pass the finish line. And it seems... yes,
it's Phobos that takes first place just before Eversor. Gladius Albus
ends up on a third and Hyacintha Magna comes in on a fourth place.
The crowd applauds and cheers
loudly as Phobos and Eversor makes it to the semifinals.

Results:
1st Phobos
2nd Eversor
3th Gladius Albus
4th Hyacintha Magna
Classified for semifinals: Phobos and Eversor
-----------------------------

Race 4

Franciscus Apulus Caesar
Driver: Himself
Chariot: Italica
Tactics number for qua and semis: 2
Tactics number for the final: 5
Factio: Russata
----------------------
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
Driver: Pelops Celer
Chariot: Volatilis
Tactics number for qua and semis: 3
Tactics number for the final 6
Factio: Praesina
------------------------------
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus
Driver Concordius
Chariot: Impactus Infrenatus
Tactic for qua & semis: 5
Tactic for final: 6
Factio Albata
----------------------
Hadrianus Arminius Hyacinthus
Driver: Pertinax
Chariot: Volans
Tactics for the Quarter and Semifinals: 2
Tactics for the Finals: 5
Factio. russata
---------------------

As the second race for the day is being prepared the sky above the
circus is still clearly blue and filled with those small....he, he,
fluffy clouds again. At the innermost lane stands the chariot
Italica, competing for factio Russata, owned and driven by Illustrus
Franciscus Apulus Caesar. Next to him stands the chariot Volatilis,
owned by Illustrus Titus Labienus Fortunatus and driven by Pelops
Celer. Next to him we find the chariot Impactus Infrenatus, owned by
Illustrus Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and driven by Concordius, which
grins in a little evil way. Next to him on the outermost lane we find
the chariot Volans, driven by Pertinax and owned by Illustrus
Hadrianus Arminius Hyacinthus.
I've just recived the news that the driver of the chariot Volatilis,
Pelops Celer obiously have suffered an assasination attempt, just
before the start!!!
He seems to be ok and I'm now reciving a report that the assasin has
been uncovered and taken care of. O, boy! Some people just can't
imagine the thought of loosing and will use all messures available to
win. Well...anyway Pelops Celer seems to be allright and soon the
race will begin. However, Gnaeus Octavius Noricus seems to be a bit
angry on his seat, murmuring words as "there are not good
professionals in the city", "I should have paid to Hannibal Lecterus"
and "at least they have not accused me, uf!".
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Italica and Impactus Infrenatus gets a great
start and directly takes a small lead. Entering the first curve
Volatilis seriously challenges them both, but he is also struggling
against Volans, which keeps a good and steady pace. Volatilis slowly
gets up side to side with italica and Impactus Infrenatus, but he is
tightly pressed against the wall of the circus by Impactus Infrenatus
and have to fall back again. Up for the last lap Impactus Infrenatus
keeps a small lead before Italica, which now is struggling towards
Volans, which is comming up strong. As the finish line approaches
they are racing side by side, behind the leading Impactus Infrenatus.
Who of these two will make it to the semifinals? It seems to be
Volans who has a small advantage over Italica. Yes, Impactus
Infrenatus finishes in first place, Volans comes in on a second place
closely followed by Italica and a not so happy Volatilis ends up on a
fourth place. The crowd applauds and cheers loudly as Impactus
Infrenatus and Volans makes it to the semifinals.

Results:
1st Impactus Infrenatus
2nd Volans
3th Italica
4th Volatilis
Classified: Impactus Infrenatus and Volans
------------------------------


Race 5

Alexander Solaris Draco
Driver : Scissor Obscurvs Northmannvs
Chariot : FVROR TEVTONICVS
Tactic for the Qua and Semis: 4
Tactic for the final: 5
Factio: Russata
------------------------
Julilla Sempronia Magna
Driver: Crescens
Chariot: Delecta Mea
Tactics number for quarters and semi-finals: 6
Tactics number for the final: 1
Factio: Praesina
--------------------------
Gaius Lanius Falco
Driver: Vincentius Maximus
Chariot VERITAS
Tactics number for quarters is 4
Tactics number for the final is 2
Factio: Veneta
-----------------------

As the second race for the day is being prepared the sky above the
circus is still clearly blue and filled with those... YES... small,
fluffy clouds. At the innermost lane stands the chariot Furor
Teutonicus, competing for factio Russata, owned by Illustrus
Alexander Solaris Draco and driven by the well known Scissor Obscurvs
Northmannvs. He is a non-legitimate son of a High rank militar Roman
General and a "Norse" woman daughter of a cruel Gotic savager chief,
roman mercenary. He's known as a master of irony and cruelty, cunning
and dirty tactics but seriously engaged to do not show his low honor
to Roman Citizen to confront of he has envy. He say to the citizen
Constantinus Serapio in a rough italian: "LA PROSSIMA VOLTA DOVRAI
GUIDARE IL TUO CARRO TU, PERCHE' IL TUO TAURISCIO STAVOLTA LO FACCIO
FUORI!!!". "He´s really a barbarian beast!", said a confused
Serapio, looking disdainly to another side. Hum, it seems that in the
Italia province all the citizens are very good friends :-) Next to
him stands the chariot Delecta Mea, owned by Illustra Julilla
Sempronia Magna and driven by Crescens (Since the old driver,
Scorpianus, was sent to the provinces). Next to him on the outermost
lane we find the chariot Veritas, owned by Illustrus Gaius Lanius
Falco and driven by Vincentius Maximus which cheerfully waves to the
crowd.
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Entering the first curve it's absolutely even
between all the three chariots. Veritas is the one that might have a
small advantage over the others, but he is tightly challenged by a
wild Furor Teutonicus, wich lashes out at Veritas driver, Vincentius
Maximus. Delecta Mea keeps out the trouble behind the other two
rivals, who now both are lashing out at eachother. Disturbed by their
personal fighting Veritas and Furor Teutonicus are passed by Delecta
Mea, which makes a tactical move during the final lap of the race.
Delecta Mea gets a small lead over the other two chariots. On the
finishing lane Delecta Mea has secured a safe lead and Veritas and
Furor Teutonicus sees their way to the semifinals slip away. First
over the finish line is Delecta Mea. Veritas comes in on second place
and Furor Teutonicus (with a really angry driver) ends up on a third
place. The crowd applauds and cheers loudly as Delecta Mea makes it
to the semifinals.

Results:
1st Delecta Mea
2nd Veritas
3th Furor Teutonicus
Classified for semifinals: Delecta Mea

-------------------------

Race 6

Titus Arminius Genialis.
Driver: Fabius Brasilicus.
Chariot: Terrifica.
Tactics for qua and semis: 2
Tactics for final: 6
Factio: russata
------------------
Lucius Suetonius Nerva
Driver: Stauracius
Chariot: Annonymous
Tactics for quarters and semi-finals: 2
Tactics for final: 5
Factio: Russata
---------------------
Marcus Minucius Audens
Driver: Pugio
Chariot: Emerald Wing
Tactic for all: 1
Factio Praesina
-----------------------

As the second race for the day is being prepared the sky above the
circus is still clearly blue and filled with those small... As I can
say it... yes... fluffy clouds. Down at the starting-line the
competitors are getting ready. At the innermost lane stands the
chariot Terrifica, owned by Illustrus Titus Arminius Genialis and
driven by the skilled Fabius Brasilicus. Next to him stands the
chariot Annonymous, owned by Illustrus Lucius Suetonius Nerva and
driven by Stauracius. Next to him on the outermost lane we find the
chariot Emerald Wing, driven by Pugio and owned by Illustrus Marcus
Minucius Audens.
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Terrifica and Annonymous gets a great start and
directly takes a small lead over Emerald Wing. The first curve is
really tightly raced by both Terrifica and Annonymous, which seems to
be really determined to walk away as todays winner. Emerald Wing has
lost a few yards to the leading duo as they begin the last lap.
Terrifica and Annonymous are still struggling, but Emerald Wing is
closing up on them. Will Emerald Wing make it all the way? He is
surely going strong, but I don't think he will. As the chariots comes
up towards the finish line Terrifica has taken a small lead over
Annonymous. Emerald Wing is still going strong, but... no, he comes
in on a third place, close behind Annonymous and the winner
Terrifica. The crowd applauds and cheers loudly as Terrifica makes it
to the semifinals.

Results:
1st Terrifica
2nd Annonymous
3th Emerald Wing
Classified for semifinals: Terrifica
----------------------------------

Race 7

N. Cassius Niger
Driver: Milo
Chariot: Leo
Tactics for Quarter finals an semis: 1
Tactics for the final: 3
Factio: Praesina
---------------------
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Driver: Gustavus Barbarus
Chariot: Proeliator
Tactics number for quarters and semi-finals: 2 5.
Tactics number for the final: 6
Factio: Russata
---------------------
G. Iulius Scaurus
Driver: Cethinus Aspis
Chariot: Raptor Cruentus
Tactics for Quarter finals an semis: 4
Tactics for the final: 6
Factio Praesina
------------------------

As the second race for the day is being prepared the sky above the
circus is still clearly blue and filled with those small...yes,
again, forever and never, fluffy clouds. At the innermost lane
stands the chariot Leo, owned by Illustrus N. Cassius Niger and
driven by the skilled Milo. Next to him stands the chariot
Proeliator, owned by Illustrus consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and
driven by Gustavus Barbarus. Next to him on the outermost lane we
find the chariot Raptor Cruentus, driven by Cethinus Aspis and owned
by Illustrus G. Iulius Scaurus.
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Proeliator and Raptor Cruentus gets a great
start and directly takes a small lead over Leo. The first curve is
really tightly raced by both Proeliator and Raptor Cruentus. Leo
looses a few yards to the leading duo during the race, but as they
begin the last lap he really gets his "motor running". Proeliator and
Raptor Cruentus are still struggling, but Leo is slowly closing up on
them. He is surely going strong and now he's up next to Raptor
Cruentus. But what happens? The driver of Raptor Cruentus lashes out
at Leo's driver who seems to loose controll of his chariot. He rams
the wall of the circus with a crunch and flies high up in the air...
landing on... ooohhh, he seems to be landing somewere among the
Senators. - How embarrassing! The other two chariots continues the
race and comes up towards the finishing line side by side. It is
really even, but it seems as if Raptor Cruentus has taken a small,
small lead over Proeliator 4. Will Proeliator be able to answer to
that finish? I think he might... or... no, he comes in on a second
place, really close behind the winner Raptor Cruentus. The crowd
applauds and cheers loudly as Raptor Cruentus makes it to the
semifinals. The Red Armada has already 5 semifinalists!

Results:
1st Raptor Cruentus
2nd Proeliator
3th Leo (accident)
Classified for semifinals: Raptor Cruentus
-------------------------------

Race 8

Sergius Adrianus
Driver: Lirones de los Andes
Chariot: Velociraptor
Tactics for all: 1
Factio: Albata
--------------------
Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Driver: Pontius Falx
Chariot: Ossifragus (the sea eagle)
Tactics for qua & semis: 2
Tactics for final: 2
Factio: Veneta
------------------------
Manius Constantinus Serapio
Driver: Italicus
Chariot: Essedum
Tactics for qua and semis: 1
Tactics number for the final: 4
Factio: Praesina
---------------------------

As the eight and last qualifying race for the day is being prepared
the sky above the circus is still clearly blue and filled with those
small, fluffy clouds, always fluffy clouds, always...ARRG... well,
ehem... The sharp sounds of flags banging in the wind echoes through
the circus as the spectators anticipation and cheers rises. Down at
the starting-line the competitors are getting ready. At the innermost
lane stands the chariot Velociraptor, owned by Illustrus Sergius
Adrianus and driven by the skilled Lirones de los Andes. Next to him
stands the chariot Ossifragus (the sea eagle), owned by Illustrus
Gallus Minucius Iovinus and driven by Pontius Falx. Next to him on
the outermost lane we find the chariot Essedum, driven by Italicus
and owned by Illustrus Manius Constantinus Serapio, the
great "friend" of Scissor.
The race starts and the chariots hurrys away to the loud cheers of
the excited audiense. Ossifragus gets a great start and directly
takes a small lead over the others as he passes the first curve
really tightly. Velociraptor and Essedum are really struggling
toward one and other, but no one seems to get the upper hand. The
driver of Essedum seems to be really concentrated, while the driver
of Velociraptor is screaming his lungs out to get his horses to go
faster. As the chariots comes in for the final lap Ossifragus has the
lead, but now both Velociraptor and Essedum, seems to quicken up
their pace. They are slowly gaining on the leading Ossifragus, but
will they make it all the way? As the chariots comes up towards the
finishing line Ossifragus still has a small lead and Velociraptor and
Essedum struggles side by side. It is really even between them both,
but I don't think they will manage to beat Ossifragus in this race.
The horses rushes towards the finishing line and yes, it is Ossifraus
that takes the first place. Velociraptor manage to take the second
place closely followed by Essedum. The crowd applauds and cheers
loudly as Ossifragus makes it to the semifinals.

Results:
1st Ossifragus
2nd Velociraptor
3th Essedum
Classified for semifinals: Ossifragus
---------------

Total classified:

Russata: 5 (Cerealia, Massilia, Eversor, Volans and Terrifica)
Praesina: 3 (Basilea, Delecta Mea and Raptor Cruentus)
Veneta: 2 (Phobos and Ossifragus)
Albata: 2 (Australissima Orbis Terrae and Impactus Infrenatus)

On Tuesday the semifinals!!!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Nova Roman Controversy
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 09:03:32 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Francisce Apule Aedilis,

> What do you think? Maybe the follow Illustris Magistrates hurted the
> Gods, changed the religious rituals, offended or removed or replaced
> the Religio Romana, encouraged the citizens to derespect the Religio
> and the Gods?

> - Illustrus Marcus Octavius Germanicus
> - Illustrus Quintus Gaufridus Canus

Unfortunately, my colleague disappeared a week or two after the election,
and the one Plebeian Aedile that year was rather quiet... being
only one Aedile where there should be four, I was unable to perform
every duty of that office; I chose to concentrate on the record-keeping
aspect (by building the Album Civium we see today) at the expense of
Ludi.

> [to this honorable Citizens, please don't feel hurted, mine is not an
> attack against you. This is only my defense.]

Certainly.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The temple of Magna Mater on the Palatine (long note)
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <fraelov@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 14:25:58 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

I want give my congratulations to my assistant Illustrus Marcus
Iulius Perusianus for this report. In my Cohors he's engaging in a
detailed and important project taking of care the ruins of Temple of
Magna MAter in the Palatine Hill in Rome.

At 14th April we, Perusianus, Aurelia Iulia Pulchra and me, will meet
the Soprintendenza Archeologica of Rome (the public Istitution
managing the ruins in Palatin). We'll present Nova Roma and the
Project of Restoration. The directors of the Soprintendenza have
confirmed us they want accept our proposals.
We would like to start a fund-raising and donate the raised money to
the Istitution for the improving of the ruins. We'll ask to patrocine
and sponsored the Temple and have a special sign in the Palatine
(like a logo near the ruins).

In my opinion this is the first real and important step of Nova Roma
in live restoration and conservation of the roman ruins everywhere.
This is the first step to an international and public recongition of
Nova Roma and I invite you all to send us a little donation for this
project.

And this is why I think the Aedilian Fund is so important because it
could give an assurance to everyone want donate money to the Aediles.
I invite the Senate to think about this in the next votation.

I'll give as soon as possible (i hope after a positive vote of the
Senate ;-) the dates to make a donation and I hope to give you other
wonderful news about the Project after 14th April.

I remember you all the Cohors Aediles FAC is engaged too in the
project of sensibilization of Rosia Montana, the Ancient Alburnus
Maior, the roman village in Romania risking to be destroyed by a gold
mine. Please visit http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus/

Valete bene
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...>
wrote:
> M IVL PERVSIANVS QVIRITIBVS SPD
>
> avete omnes,
> today is, as proclaimed by our Senior Aedile Franciscus Apulus
Caesar, the
> archeological day dedicated to the Magna Mater and her temple on
the Palatine
> hill, Rome. This is a report I've written these last days. In a few
days
> a more friendly version will be published (with pictures and links)
on FAC
> Cohors site.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> One year later, what?s going on?
>
> Almost one year has passed since my first recognition to the area
of the
> temple, on the Palatine hill. Since then I have learned a lot about
this
> topic, and most of all, I was appointed to follow this project on
the behalf
> of Cohors Aedelis of Franciscus Apulus Caesar.
> Last year, as Scriba ad Historiam Provinciae Italiae I provided a
first
> report to Cohors Aedilis Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> (See at
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/templemagnamater.htm).
>
>
> What did we figure out last year? All the south-west area of the
Palatine
> hill is the object, since 1977, of systematic surveying directed by
Professor
> Patrizio Pensabene Perez (with the collaboration of numerous
graduated and
> students of the Department of Archaeological and Anthropological
Historical
> Sciences of the University of Rome "La Sapienza"). Unfortunately it
is still
> not possible to visit that area as it remains all fenced and under
restoration.
> At the entrance of the area there is still a sign stating jobs of
removal
> of asbestos materials in progress.
> A telephone call with Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma, made two
weeks
> ago has confirmed this situation.
>
> What is changed now, one year after? Well, this report is more
aimed to
> the archeological news about the temple. We feel like having as
much information
> as possible about the temple as in a few weeks we look forward to a
big
> event.
>
> I think I?m not wrong if I say that for the first time Nova Roma is
having
> a contact with the managers of a Roman monument.
> Later this month Propraetor Italiae and myself, together with other
Italic
> citizens, will have an appointment with D.sa Irene Iacopi, managing
director
> of Roman Forum and Palatine archeological areas, to offer our
economical
> help to preserve the temple and any other kind of possible
relations. The
> creation of an Aedilian fund is also aimed to this purpose. It?s
our intention
> to understand better what both sides can earn. There are some
possibilities
> enlisted by the Italian law, which allows private citizens, alone
or associated,
> to collaborate with the Ministero per i Beni e le attività
culturali (for
> cultural assets and activities) as written in the Decreto
legislativo 368/98,
> art.10, comma 1.
>
> Questions of importance are as follows:
>
> a. What are the rules for fundraising?
> b. What forms of control are needed?
> c. What merits could Nova Roma display?
>
> The Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma, addressed in Piazza
S.Maria in
> Nova 53, will hold the meeting on April 14
(http://www.archeorm.arti.beniculturali.it/sar2000,
> email: info@a...).
>
>
> The History of Magna Mater
>
> The Cult of Magna Mater, the Great Mother, is probably the oldest
religion
> of all. The earliest stone-age sculptures depict the mother-
goddess, as
> an idol found in Catal Hüyük, six thousands years old. In a later
form she
> became a seated woman flanked by two leopards. The area of the
Aegean Sea
> and especially the Cretan Isle, organized by a matriarchal order
during
> the prehistoric age, adored a Mother Goddess as dispenser of
fecundity.
> She was adored as Cybele, worshipped with this name in Greece,
Phrygia and
> Anatolia. On the banks of the Euphrates as Koubaba and near the
Babylonians
> as Damkina, which means "married with the earth and the sky". Other
names
> were Gaia, Ga or Ge (from greek Mother Earth), Terra (in Latin) and
Gatumdu
> (her Sumerian name); she was also called Ishtar in Akkadia and
finally Isis
> in Egypt, not saying that behind her name there was also the
oriental goddess
> Shub-Niggurath.
>
> In nearly all creation myths of all cultures she appears to be the
eternal,
> not born, just existing from the beginning of time. She gives the
earth
> its shape. She is the bearer of the world and the population of
this planet
> (plants, animals and humans).
> The Romans identified this goddess with the Greek Rhea, and called
her the
> Magna Mater, the Great Mother.
> Although the priests of the cult were men who had castrated
themselves in
> front of her image, but most of the followers were women. They
worshipped
> the goddess in different temples, independent each other, although
some
> temples had more influence than others did. They were mainly in
Phrygia,
> Greece and Italy.
> In Pessinus, in northern Asia, a simulacrum of the divinity was
worshipped:
> one black stone of conical shape, probably a meteorite. Another
major temple
> was in Delphi, which was later re-consecrated to Apollo and became
much
> more famous for his oracle.
> In each temple the High Priestess had the greatest status, followed
by the
> Archigalli. Below in status was the ordinary priestesses and lowest
the
> galli.
>
>
> The Roman Magna Mater
>
> The Second Punic War had put in crisis the republican Rome and its
religious
> structure too. In the attempt of recovering the support of the
Gods, which
> appeared to be lost, the cult of the Magna Mater was introduced in
204 BC,
> after the consultation of the Sibylline Books.
> It?s also believed that the patricians imported the cult of Magna
Mater
> explicitly so that their social class would have a goddess that
served some
> of the functions that Ceres did for the plebeians. As a result,
there was
> sharp antagonism between the two cults, becoming rivals separated
only by
> the social classes they served. The same year the temple of Magna
Mater
> was dedicated, a new festival dedicated to Ceres was established.
This festival
> was called the Ieinium Cereris, and may have represented a plebeian
response
> to the new patrician goddess.
> The embassy was sent to the king of Pergamus, in which territory
the sanctuary
> was located. Having obtained the delivery of the simulacrum, it was
then
> carried and loaded on a ship to Rome. The simulacrum was one
pointed black
> stone of conical shape, called acus, which represented the goddess.
On its
> arrival it was welcomed into the city by a vir optimus, or best
man, selected
> from one of the most distinguished patrician families. The matrons
that
> escorted the goddess on the road from Ostia to Rome were entirely
drawn
> from the patrician class. Since its arrival in Rome until the
completation
> of an appropriated temple, the black stone was kept in the temple
of Victory
> (the Aedes Victoriae), on the western side of the Palatine hill.
> (Livy Ab urbe condita XXIX.37.2; XXXVI.36)
>
> Between 204 and 191 BC the sanctuary was built in the same area in
order
> to receive the acus. Probably that place was chosen also because of
the
> proximity to the cave of the recovery of the twins, the Lupercale,
as mountains
> and caves were sacred to the Magna Mater, and her temples were
often built
> near them in the tradition. It was dedicated on April 11 191 BC, by
the
> praetor Marcus Iunius Brutus, on which occasion the ludi
Megalenses, or
> Megalesia, were instituted and celebrated in front of the temple
(Livy loc.
> cit.; Fast. Praen. ap. Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum I". p. 235,
314-315,
> cf. p. 251=VI. 32498; Fast. Ant. ap. NS 1921, 91; Cicero de har.
resp. 24;
> cf. for site Ovidius Fast. II. 55; Martial VII.73.3).
>
> In 111 BC there was a first fire in the Temple of the Magna Mater
when the
> statue of Quinta Cloelia within the temple was uninjured. It was
caused
> by the aedile Quintus Memmius, who took with him the black stone.
>
> The temple was restored by Metellus Numidicus, consul in 110 BC,
and the
> cult resumed in an official and pacific version.
>
> Burned again in 3 BC, it was destroyed by mysterious circumstances.
>
> Augustus restored it in 3 AD. He also showed his closeness to the
Religio
> of Cybele (the other name commonly used in Rome) and his wife Livia
was
> resembled to the goddess. This worship has a large growing since
the end
> of the Imperial era (or since the interdiction of the paganism).
After that
> the traces of the cult of the black stone were lost.
> (Val. Max. I.8.II; Obseq. 99; Ovidius Fast.IV. 347-348; Mon.
Anc.IV.8)
>
> According to writings about Roman Regiones, the temple was still
standing
> unharmed in the fourth century (Not.Reg.X).
>
> During Roman History there are other references by classic authors:
> - The temple is found in Cassius Dio (XLVIII.43.4), Juvenal (IX.23)
as a
> place of assignation, and in the third century (Hist. Aug. Claud.
4; Aurel.
> I).
> - The stone needle itself is described by a late writer (Arnob.
adv. gentes
> vii. 49) as small and set in a silver statue of the goddess (cf.
Herodianus
> ab exc. d. Marci i. II; Arnob. v. 5). It was perhaps removed by
Elagabalus
> to his temple (q.v.) on the Palatine (Hist. Aug. Elag. 3; cf. LR
134-138;
> but cf. BC 1883, 211; HJ 53-54, n. 44).
>
> Archaeological evidences of the temple
>
> At the top of the Scalae Caci and behind the area of the Romulean
huts,
> on the southwestern corner of the Palatine, stand the ruins of the
ancient
> temple. Nowadays only a large brick box is visible in a squared
work with
> a staircase inside, on which a small wood of elm-oaks has grown.
>
> These ruins consist of a massive podium made of irregular pieces of
volcanic
> tufo and peperino laid in thick mortar, and fragments of columns
and entablature.
> The building presents its own guideline (NorthEast - SouthWest,
which was
> decided by cultural reasons), different from the previous one of
191 BC.
> Moreover a great courtyard occupied a large portion of the front
space and
> the western area of the temple, while to the East eased a
connection with
> the area of the nearby temple of Victory.
> All this was inside of a wide rectangular area closed on the west
flank
> of the temple. This is because the courtyard had to be classified
for a
> specific function, probably connected to the theatrical events of
the Ludi.
> The structure shows the need of great bathtubs for the rituals of
the cult.
> The priests of Magna Mater used these when they washed her image in
the
> sacred waters of the Almon River during the festivals of the
Goddess.
> The temple by Augustus (the last version and how we see it today)
was created
> on a high base with big steps. The great concrete podium which,
with the
> foundations laying directly on the cliff of the Palatine, was 9
Mts. (29.5
> feet) high. With the reconstruction of temple by concrete and the
elevation
> of the courtyard, the squared bathtub and the accessing angled
scales were
> obliterated. A new great rectangular concrete basin (16,50 x 3
Mts., 54.13
> x 9.8 feet) was constructed in the West area of the podium of the
temple.
> It is evident that the restoration of that period was carried out
using
> materials from the original structure.
>
> The dimensions of the podium are 33,40 x 19,35 Mts. (110 x 63
feet). The
> walls are 3,84 Mts. (12.60 feet) thick on the sides and 5,50 Mts.
(18.04
> feet) in the rear, but this unusual thickness is due to the fact
that the
> rear wall is double, with an air space, 1,80 Mts. (5.91 feet) wide,
between
> the two parts. This wall was faced on the outside with stucco, not
with
> opus quadratum. The walls of the cell were somewhat thinner than
the podium
> ones, forming a smaller rectangle (32 x 64 Mts. = 105 x 210 feet),
lying
> on a high covered base with lava stone blocks. From the rear wall
of the
> cell projects the base of a pedestal on which the stone needle
probably
> stood.
>
> While the previous described is the wider consideration, there is
considerable
> divergence of opinion as to the date of the podium: some attribute
it to
> 110 BC, and believe that the architectural members were given only
a new
> coat of stucco under Augustus. Fiechter assigns the whole to the
middle
> of the first century BC, but it does not seem at all necessary to
suppose
> that Augustus would not have used peperino coated with stucco.
>
> There weren't columns on the sides (prostylos) but only six columns
(hexastylos)
> in the front of the Corinthian order. And a plinth in masonry for
the cult
> of the statue, was placed perhaps in the inside of a sacellum on
the bottom
> wall (as said before). It was approached by a flight of steps
extending
> entirely across the front. The relationship between cell, pronao
and front
> body is 4:2:1. The rest of masonry are in opus reticulata and built
after
> the fire of 111 BC: the columns in lava stone lying beside podium
are of
> Augustan age. On the forehead of the pronao a terrace, supported by
parallels
> walls on turf made blocks, datable to III century BC. For following
generations
> this last structure was likely reused for several shops. They were
placed
> on a covered inner path that crossed the area.
>
> Is this the real temple of Magna Mater?
>
> Such a reconstruction has been confirmed as a relief of the first
imperial
> age that reproduces a procession in the front of the temple. This
relief
> is now at Villa Medici in Rome (http://www.villamedici.it/). This
temple
> was formerly attributed to the Ara Pacis.
>
> This is commonly thought to be the temple of Magna Mater owing to
an identification
> of a coin of the elder Faustina (not possible to see the picture.)
This
> represents a temple of the Corinthian order, with curved roof, and
a flight
> of steps on which is a statue of Cybele with a turreted crown
enthroned
> between lions.
>
> Recent diggings have characterized, to the east of the temple, the
foundations
> and the rests of the podium of another temple identified as the one
of the
> Victory. It was built in 294 BC by Consul Lucius Postumius Megellus
and
> to which Marcus Porcius Cato in the 193 BC added a place dedicated
to the
> Victoria Virgo. As said there was conserved the acus previously.
>
> Inscriptions and objects found in the area make it extremely
probable, if
> not for sure.
> Inscriptions referring to Magna Mater, especially one with a
dedication
> to the M(ater) D(eum) M(agna) I(daea), goddess of Mount Ida, a
mount in
> Phrygia by Pessinunt.
> (CIL VI. 496, 1040, 3702= 30967; NS 1896, 186; cf. CIL XII.405),
>
> Also found was a portion of a colossal female figure seated on a
throne
> and a fragment of a base with the paws of lions, the regular
attendants
> of the goddess.
>
> Diggings are supposed to have recovered several votive terracotta
of the
> first age of the temple. Thanks to them many interesting aspects of
the
> cult have been cleared, like the importance of the spring
celebration during
> the equinox.
>
> To say the least, a story says that in some cases hidden somewhere
would
> be located the acus, the famous black stone, itself recovered
during the
> diggings.
>
> NR declaration & edict about the MM project
>
> Nova Roma has shown its duty toward the temple of Magna Mater
through two
> main acts.
>
> JOINT DECLARATIO ABOUT THE TEMPLE OF MAGNA MATER IN ROMA
> March 8 2002
>
> I. Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (Aedilian site,
Thule
> site), Honorable Caius Cornelius Puteanus (Germania Inferior site),
Honorable
> Claudia Cornelia (Germania Inferior site), Illustrus Franciscus
Apulus Caesar
> (Italia site), Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus (Finnicae site),
Honorable
> Emilia Curia Finnica (Finnicae site and Academia site), Illustrus
Antonius
> Gryllus Graecus (Lusitania site), Illustra Iulia Cocceia and
Illustrus Sextus
> Apollonius Scipio (Gallia site) have formed an alliance to further
the correct
> restoration and care for the Temple of Magna Mater in Rome.
>
> II. Each of the above promise to place a picture of the Temple of
Magna
> Mater in Rome on "their" Nova Roman web-site (Aedilian,
> Provincial or Regional) with an inquiry asking all that visit their
web-site
> to contribute to the correct restoration and care of the Temple of
Magna
> Mater in Rome. The web-site shall also have the address of the
Propraetor
> of Italia, so that it is possible to contact him to send funds to
him to
> enable Provincia Italia to execute this joint promise. This web-
page shall
> be designed by Illustrus Franciscus Apulus Caesar and made
available by
> him to all the co-signers of this declaratio.
>
> Signed in March the 8th, in the year of the consulship of Marcus
> Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, 2755 AUC. by:
> Senior Curule Aedile Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
> Illustrus Franciscus Apulus Caesar,
> Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus,
> Honorable Emilia Curia Finnica,
> Illustrus Antonius Gryllus Graecus,
> Illustra Iulia Cocceia,
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio.
>
> EDICTVM PROPRAETORICVM V - REFECTIO TEMPLI MAGNAE MATRIS
> May 7 2002
>
> Italian version:
> Ex Officio Propraetoris Provinciae Italiae
>
> I. Con Questo Edictum la Provincia Italia ribadisce ufficialmente
l'impegno
> assunto nella JOINT DECLARATIO ABOUT THE TEMPLE OF MAGNA MATER IN
ROMA promossa
> dalla Cohors Aedilis di Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, firmata dal
Propraetor
> in carica e visionabile all'indirizzo
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/megalesia/temple.htm
>
> II. La Provincia Italia istituirà un fondo, con le modalità
ritenute più
> convenienti, per la ricezione della donazioni provenienti dai
cittadini
> di Nova Roma a favore della ricostruzione e della manutenzione
delle rovine
> del Tempio di Magna Mater sul Palatino a Roma.
>
> III. Per favorire la pubblicità del progetto al più ampio pubblico,
sarà
> predisposto un apposito sito Internet all'interno di
http://italia.novaroma.org
> contenente tutte le informazioni storiche sul tempio, i dati per la
ricezione
> delle donazioni e gli aggiornamenti sull'andamento dei lavori.
>
> IV. La Provincia Italia designerà un magistrato provinciale come
responsabile
> del progetto. Egli dovrà ricercare notizie storiche ed
archeologiche sul
> Tempio di Magna Mater, curare i contatti con i donatori e con gli
enti pubblici
> manutentori delle rovine, conservare i fondi raccolti ed
individuare un'associazione
> o ente locale per la manutenzione del Tempio.
> Egli sarà anche il supervisore per Nova Roma dell'andamento dei
lavori.
> Altri magistrati provinciali potranno essere coinvolti nel progetto
a supporto
> del responsabile.
>
> V. Questo Edictum ha effetto immediato. Promulgato alle Nonis Maiis
MMDCCLVI
> a.u.c. (May 7, 2002), nell'anno del Consolato di Marcus Octavius
Germanicus
> e Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.
>
> VI. Questo Edictum ha l'approvazione della Curia Italica
(04/05/2002, http://italia.novaroma.org/curia/r30042002.txt)
>
> Curiae Post Scriptum: Il Propraetor Provinciae Italiae, quando lo
riterrà
> opportuno, emanerà un Edictum contenente le indicazioni precise
relative
> all'Ente che si occuperà dell'opera di restauro e alle modalità di
raccolta
> delle offerte di denaro a favore del progetto.
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
>
> English version:
> I. With this Edictum, Provincia Italia officially undertake the
commitment
> expressed in the JOINT DECLARATIO ABOUT THE TEMPLE OF MAGNA MATER
IN ROMA,
> promoted by Cohors Aedilis of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, and signed
by our
> current Propraetor (see at
http://italia.novaroma.org/cohorsaedilis/ludi/megalesia/temple.htm)
>
> II. Provincia Italia will create a fund, following the most
convenient methods,
> to receive money from Nova Roma citizens explicitly given for the
restoration
> and management of the ruins of the Temple of Magna Mater on the
Palatine
> hill, Rome.
>
> III. A new Internet site at http://italia.novaroma.org will be
created to
> advertise the project, to let it be known to as much as people are
possible.
> It will contain all the historical information about the temple,
data about
> fundraising and update about the working progress.
>
> IV. Provincia Italia will appoint a provincial magistrate as
responsible
> of the project. He shall research historical and archeological news
about
> the Temple of Magna Mater, paying attention to the money givers and
keeping
> contacts with public organisms managing the ruins, saving money
raised and
> finding an association or local administration for the restoring
the Temple.
> He will be also a supervisor for Nova Roma about the restoration
and other
> kind of works. Other provincial magistrates could be involved in
the project
> in the future to support the supervisor.
>
> V. This Edictum is immediately valid. Given in the Nonis Maiis
MMDCCLVI
> a.u.c. (May 7, 2002), in the year of the Consulship of Marcus
Octavius Germanicus
> and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.
>
> VI. This Edictum has the approval of Curia Italica (04/05/2002,
http://italia.novaroma.org/curia/r30042002.txt)
>
> Curiae Post Scriptum: Propraetor Provinciae Italiae, up to his own
decision,
> will emanate an Edictum with the right indications about the
administration
> which is going to restore the monument, about rules for fundraising
about
> this project.
>
> Franciscus Apulus Caesar
> Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
>
> Useful licteral sources
>
> Samuel Ball Platner,
> A Topographical Dictionary of Ancient Rome.
> (London: Humphrey Milford. Oxford University Press. 1929)
>
> Pensabene Patrizio,
> Scavi nell'area del tempio della Vittoria e del santuario della
Magna Mater
> sul Palatino
> (Rome: Archeologia Laziale IX, 1989)
>
> Lynn E. Roller,
> In Search of God the Mother The Cult of Anatolian Cybele (Berkeley-
Los Angeles:
> University of California Press, 1999)
>
>
> Sites & articles
>
> Magna Mater, The Great mother
> (http://inanna.virtualave.net/mother.html)
>
> Sophia Eva Kharis? site at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2179/magna_mater.htm
>
> By Anders Sandberg at
http://hem.bredband.net/arenamontanus/Mage/magna.html
>
> By Alicia Ashby at
> http://students.roanoke.edu/groups/relg211/ashby/Index.html
>
>
> Marcus Iulius Perusianus
> -------------------------
> Scriba ad historiam Provinciae Italiae
> Scriba Aedilis Historicus Primus
> Scriba Curatoris Differum
>
> -------------------------
> http://www.geocities.com/m_iulius
> http://italia.novaroma.org
> http://italia.novaroma.org/fac
> -------------------------
> AEQVAM MEMENTO REBVS IN ARDVIS SERVARE MENTEM

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] New telecomm laws: possible problems
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:26:10 -0400

Salve, Marcus Octavius Germanicus -

On Sat, Apr 05, 2003 at 04:55:00PM -0600, Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
>
> > (1) A person shall not assemble, develop, manufacture, possess, deliver,
> > offer to deliver, or advertise an unlawful telecommunications access
> > device or assemble, develop, manufacture, possess, deliver, offer to
> > deliver, or advertise a telecommunications device intending to use those
> > devices or to allow the devices to be used to do any of the following or
> > knowing or having reason to know that the devices are intended to be used
> > to do any of the following:
>
> > (b) Conceal the existence or place of origin or destination of any
> > telecommunications service.
>
> They've just described every router and every host connected to the
> Internet that runs a relatively recent operating system. Every
> Cisco router has NAT; every Windows machine has it (which means that
> Microsoft violates this law several thousand times daily).
>
> This is a monumentally stupid law.

Yes. Hopefully, Nova Roma's physical plant isn't in one of the affected
states... although many more states are hurrying to jump onto that
particular bandwagon as I write this. I have no idea what sort of
through-the-looking-glass perspective their law-making bodies have on
the issue, but anyone with the slightest amount of technical expertise
would tell them just how deeply moronic and how disconnected from
reality it is. However, it seems that technical expertise is not
considered necessary or even useful in passing technology-related laws,
at least by those states.

<shrug> Until this is killed, we can only hope that we won't become the
test case.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Videant consules ne quid detrimenti capiat respublica.
May the consuls see to that no damage comes to the state.
-- Phrase that gave the Roman consuls absolute power when the state was
in a severe crisis, according to Cicero

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Scattered thoughts on race
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 11:28:05 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Cn. Iulio Straboni salutem dicit.

Ave, Cn. Iuli, propinque.

Scripsisti:

> Indeed. I was at work and hadn't my copy handy when I posted, so I
resorted
> to the frankly fabululous on-line edition, which is just the
translation.
> 78.6.1a uses the word _ethnos_. You are correct, I myself confused the
> notional qualities in trying to figure out how he was "Gallic" - in the
> sense you define above, it would be his adoption of Gallic culture
in the
> guise of his caracal, the hooded cloak he made popular and which
stung him
> with a lasting nickname.

I had vaguely recalled the passage in Dio, but did remember exactly
how the Greek went.

> The more deeply I read into Roman history, the more similarities I
see with
> people today (as opposed to the entirely "alien society" aspect Dr.
> McCullough flogs us with). Dio appears no different, in fact, from
my own
> father: he had a complete shorthand of all the good and bad
characteristics
> of every ethnic/racial group, and the jokes that went with them. It
appears
> to me the Romans were just as bad as anyone in terms of "He's from
Pontus,
> watch the silver," but perhaps better than modern society in that
skin-color
> didn't seem pre-deterministic in the way it is in, say, my
neighborhood of
> South Central Los Angeles. But I admit, I want to do more research
on this
> before I commit.

I'm torn on these issue. I think that a great deal of "human nature"
is driven by a biology we share with the historical Romans. Yet,
there are at least two things which make our world so radically
different from the Roman that it takes real concentration to think out
the implications of the differences. Modern medicine is one; without
it we would have the preoccupation with illness, pervasiveness of
death and fear, ascription of illnesses to demons, feel abject terror
at the not-so-gentle whims of unseen beings, and the like (and there
are still places in the world where this is still true, but not likely
in places where chaps can chat on the internet). Our conception of
time, particularly our expectations of time is another. In the Roman
world virtually everything involving work, commerce, transportation,
and military affairs, etc., took hugely more time than they do in the
modern world. Our attitudes toward time involving impatience at
having to wait come into play within minutes; in the Roman world
impatience in any complex activity involving coordination along
distances was unlikely to arise in anything under a few weeks, and
very likely much more.

> I hope you didn't think I was arguing or disputing your point; I don't
> generally do that on this list. I like to add, from my admittedly
narrow
> range of research. I realize most people are more interested in the
later
> republic and Julio-Claudian period. I enjoy your erudition mightily.

I didn't think anything of the sort and, actually, I enjoy a good
argument about history. I think it entirely laudable that you have
invested your free time in studying Roman history. My position is
somewhat different; indeed, where our relevant copies of Dio Cassius
were tells something of the tale. Yours was at home; mine on a
bookshelf in my office. I do history for a living (and am
sufficiently fascinated with history to do something like Nova Roma
for my recreation, which some of my colleagues take as a sign of
daftness). You do this for the pure love of knowledge. But that
gives me major practical advantages: I read the languages, I have many
of the primary texts at hand in my personal library and, if not there,
a university research library, I have been exposed to a huge secondary
scholarly literature, and, I think I have the greatest benefit that a
Ph.D. confers: if I don't know the answer, I know where to look it up.
I deeply admire the cives novaromani because they have devoted so
much time outside their livelihood to study Rome and her civilization
from their love of it.

Vale, propinque.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Praetores (was Greek fonts on Yahoo)
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 11:40:31 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus T. Labieno Fortunato salutem dicit.

Ave, Consul nobilis.

Thank you very much for your kind words; and for your prompt answer to
my question about praetorian actiones.

Vale, Consul nobilis.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] a book of sorts RE: Racial prejudice in Rome - scattered thoughts
From:	asseri@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:06:07 EDT

Salvette

I find this a very interesting subject. I can offer a book I use with some
of the other reenactment and education I pursue on the subject of slavery and
race .

"Race and Slavery inthe Middle East- An Historical Enquiry " by Bernard
Lewis
isbn 0-19-506283-3.

the author often comments on Roman law and it lasting influence in its
Provinces over the centuries.

Prima Fabia Drusila
Legatus Regionis Occidentalis
(Indiana ,Illinois, Kentucky)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The project of Restoring the Temple of Magna Mater
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:02:37 +0200

Salve Illustrus Franciscus Apulus Caesar et Salvete Cohors Aedilis FAC!

I congratulate and thank You all for the wonderful work You have done
with the Preoject of Restoring the Temple of Magna Mater! I will
follow the development of this project very closely and promise to
leave a sum of money to the Aedilian Fund for this project during the
Roman Rally in Bologna this summer.

I also must state that I, even if my knowledge is small, see this
project as a very noble and relgious act from the Cohors Aedilis that
by far compensate for any problems with the non-violent ludi. I _do_
hope the Gods see it the same way!
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Age of Empires-Rise of Rome Video Game match
From:	"Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:54:44 +0000

M IVL PERVSIANVS QVIRITIBVS SPD

According to many opinions Age of Empires, and especially its expansion
called Rise of Rome, it's one of the best strategy videogames ever done.
Also we believe it's one of the most widespread; hence the idea of making
a multiplayer online match (if not a tournment) durind these edition of
Megalesia Ludi.

What is important for the players is to have all the same release of the
game, which is "Age of Empires-Rise of Rome Expansion", because we tried
to play it with different version and it seemed not to work.

Anybody interested please feel free to write to me
(m_iulius@virgilio.it) today or tomorrow until midday (Central European
Time). According to how many and, most of all, where are the players
from, we will decide how many matches and at what hour they're going to
be held. We'll try to have, if just one single match is to be played, a
date/time to please as many players is possible :-)

The time when the match is to be played and more detailled rules will be
sent to the subscribers. The scenario will be one with as many players as
the subscribers (max 8 each match), everybody with the same conditions,
and for 1 hour period of time.
The winner (or the winners from each match to partecipate to a
final match) will be the ones who gain most points (Age of Empires's
total points at the end of a match).

hope to see on line for a virtual match!

Valete

Marcus Iulius Perusianus
-------------------------
Scriba ad historiam Provinciae Italiae
Scriba Aedilis Historicus Primus
Scriba Curatoris Differum

-------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/m_iulius
http://italia.novaroma.org
http://italia.novaroma.org/fac
-------------------------
AEQVAM MEMENTO REBVS IN ARDVIS SERVARE MENTEM

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The project of Restoring the Temple of Magna Mater
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <fraelov@yahoo.it>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 18:25:57 -0000

Salve Illustrus Consul,

> I congratulate and thank You all for the wonderful work You have
done
> with the Preoject of Restoring the Temple of Magna Mater! I will
> follow the development of this project very closely and promise to
> leave a sum of money to the Aedilian Fund for this project during
the
> Roman Rally in Bologna this summer.

Thank you very much, Illustrus Consul, we [me and my wonderful
Cohors] are very very engaged in this archeological project because I
think one of the most important goals of Nova Roma is the
conservation of our "Cultural Tresury", of the signs of Ancient Rome
in the world.
As last Curule Aedile you know well what is the Project of
Restoration of Temple of Magna Mater and how many time we are
spending to work about it.
The news given by Marcus Iulius Perusianus are very important because
we're crossing from a level of searching and studing to a level of
operating.
We have enough informations about Magna Mater and the Temple
inpalatine Hill, we have structural informations, histories, photos,
dates about the conservation and the right contacts to start the
practical time.
Now the next closer steps are 3:
1) to meet the Soprintendenza Archeologica of Rome and create a close
collaboration between NR and the most important archeological Public
Istitution in Rome;

2) to receive the approvation from the Senate about an Aedilian Fund
under the control of Res Publica (Senate) and managed by the Aediles
and their Quaestores;

3) to start the fund-raising and donate the raised money to the
Soprintendenza looking for a soon intervantion over the ruins.

I hope the Res Publica and the Collegium of Pontiffs and the Senate
and all the citizens would like to support this Project.

> I also must state that I, even if my knowledge is small, see this
> project as a very noble and relgious act from the Cohors Aedilis
that
> by far compensate for any problems with the non-violent ludi. I
_do_
> hope the Gods see it the same way!

Yes, I agree. This is our way to honourate Magna Mater. What a best
way to recover a temple? We think to follow the mos maiorum and to
respect the Religio Romana in our own life with practical and big
(for dimension and intentions) actions not only virtually. We hope
the Gods like our job!

[sorry for my english, I hope you understand what I means ;-)]

Vale
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 18:37:08 -0000

Salvete Quirites.

I have been reading the lastest comments on the decision of the
aediles, and I would like to add a couple of ideas.

First of all, I would prefer that the current war (which is only very
marginally connected to Nova Roma) did not affect any of our
activities. Having said this, I also have to say that I respect the
cohors aedilis's decision: they are the ones who create the ludi,
after all.

Secondly, I would like to clarify what the ludi *really* are, just in
case someone does not know. The ludi are basically fictional
*stories* written by the members of the aedilician cohors.

So I think that it is not reasonable to cry "Sacrilege!" in this
case, even if the ludi may have had a religious origin. In fact, it
is quite ridiculous, if I may express my mind freely.

What we are actually hearing is: "Hey! That guy over there is going
to write a story about gladiators where no gladiator will die! That
is a direct attack to the Religio Romana!" :-).

If we where talking about *real* ludi, we might even consider
starting this conversation (although I think that not many people
would support *real* blood spilling in modern gladiatorial shows; I
think that most of the practitioners of the Religio Romana believe
that blood sacrifices are *not* necessary). But we are talking about
stories. Fictional narration. Fun and entertainment.

This is simply a non-issue. I personally take the Religio Romana
*very* seriously. What the aedlician cohors do does not look like a
religious practice to me, so it is highly improbable that they might
be performing an impious action.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] New telecomm laws: possible problems
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 20:31:28 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Minucius Scaevola and all
citizens & peregrines, greetings.

Thanks for clarifying what this all means. I wonder
whether it would be possible for us, if targeted by
this law, to have the identity of each voter recorded
automatically and filed deep in a database which could
only be accessed by the consent of an extremely large
number of people including the Consuls, so that we
could then argue that no one's identity is actually
being concealed.

Clutching at straws? How did you guess?

Cordus

=====


www.strategikon.org


__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus
For a better Internet experience
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] New telecomm laws: possible problems
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 14:41:18 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Aule Apolloni,

> Thanks for clarifying what this all means. I wonder
> whether it would be possible for us, if targeted by
> this law,

I don't think that our voting system is a problem. No effort is made
to conceal the "place of origin" of any vote; each and every vote
originates from a place seven floors above Cermak Avenue in Chicago.

> to have the identity of each voter recorded
> automatically and filed deep in a database which could
> only be accessed by the consent of an extremely large
> number of people including the Consuls

Right now, the Rogatores and Censores, working together, could
piece this together. The Rogatores know that vote #10001 at
13:52 CST belonged to the citizen whose code is "1ABC123"; the
Censores know that citizen "1ABC123" is John Q. Smith. We're
forbidden to attempt to do so in normal circumstances, but an
attack by external hostile goverments would justify breaking the
seal.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:=5F[Nova-Roma]=5FNova=5FRoman=5FControversy?=
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?Q?sa-mann@libero.it?=" <sa-mann@libero.it>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:01:16 +0200

Spectate Druse

you took it the wrong way.
I don't think would be useful for Nova Roma starting a debate about
WWII.
So I won't add much about what you replied. Such an event like WWII
involves so many feelings and facts that I find it difficult to give a
simple exaustive issue.
I simply underline that what you gave as historical facts are plain
opinions derived from involvement. This is not negative, is different
from neutral history.




Your Knowledge of the History of Italy in the Second
> World War seems to have come from someone who wished
> to replace the truth with anti-american propaganda.


You speak like if exposing opinions different from yours about USA in
WWII would be anti-amrerican propaganda. Like if one could only be pro-
american, like if America always has been on the right's side. I simply
don't share this point. It's not propaganda.


Mussolini began losing popularity after Italy lost her
> African Colinies and Sicily was conqured. On July 25th
> 1943 the Fascist Grand Council desposed Mussolini and
> King Victor Emmanuel III had Mussilini arrested, and
> apointed Badogilo to head a new government. The
> Italian government imeditaly entered negotions with
> the United Nations.

Coming again to fact and opinions, you put an opinion like a fact. What
you call italian government had not the complete right to be called
Italian Government. Mussolini, and something like 25 million people,
formed a government in Northern Italy which was recognized by
innumerable States as the genuine italian government. This government
had nothing less than 500.000 volunteers who fought for Italy and
Italy's honour, as they said.
> An Armistice was
> announced on the 8th of September 1943 that granted
> Italy the status of a co-belligerent against the
> Nazis. The United States landed troops the next day.
> The following month Italy declared war against Germany
> who now had the status of an occuping power, not of an
> Italian ally.

I don't know, being you a Roman citizen, what you think of changing
ally during a war; what you think of turning your weapons against your
comrades and aginst the people that shared death with you, dangers,
bread and sorrows, not to speak of hopes and dreams; against their
backs, in the same barracks, in the same trenches.
I think, as a Roman, that nothing could be more disgusting than
breaking one's word, in any respect but mainly in a war that involves
the sorrows which everybody knows. The king broke his word. He
represented nothing but his cowardice, lack of honesty and honour.
For this reason, today, the vast majority of italians dislike him and
his family.

> "Liberation" was not just the view of the United
> States government, it was also the view of the
> majority of the Italian people and the Italian
> government.

Not the majority of Italians, and not a government based on popular
esteem.

> The United States did not target the Italian citizens
> during the struggle to liberate them, though the
> accuracy of the weapons of that time did lead to far
> more deaths than would have occured with modern weapon
> systems. Throughout the war in Europe the United
> States suffered appalling loses by flying daytime
> Bombing Missions in an effort to achive as precise a
> bombing as possible. We could have saved a lot of
> American lives by following the advice of British
> Bomber Command and simply carpet bombing cities at
> night, but we placed our aircrews in increased danger
> in an effort to insure that as many bombs as possible
> hit thier intended targets. 25,000 Americans died in
> those dangrous daytime raids.

I respect every soldier who fights honourably. So I do with the
americans that fought honestly. Sadly I could offer plenty instances of
american terrorism in Italy. But I don't want to offend you, simply ask
you to be patriotic as you are, it's truly a good attitude, but don't
offer your feelings as if they were the truth.

Gallus Solaris Alexander
Bononia
Italia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Moderation Announce
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:24:10 -0000

Salvete Quirites.

A message has been sent to this list from the address
BiggPoppaPump420@aol.com under the title "Secret Ancient Roman Info".
That message just contains a link that does not seem related to
Ancient Rome.

I have decided to censor that message, because it seems spam to me.
If the person who sent it thinks that I am wrong, please contact me
privately and we will talk about it.

Thank you.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
PRAETOR

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:31:25 EDT

In a message dated 4/6/03 11:38:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
salixastur@yahoo.es writes:

Salvete.
> Secondly, I would like to clarify what the ludi *really* are, just in
> case someone does not know. The ludi are basically fictional
> *stories* written by the members of the aedilician cohors.


Of course. No one is dying in reality. So I do understand why people are
saying what is the big deal.
The big deal is perception and precedent.

> So I think that it is not reasonable to cry "Sacrilege!" in this
> case, even if the ludi may have had a religious origin. In fact, it
> is quite ridiculous, if I may express my mind freely.
>

Intersting that you say this. If we are recreation of Rome, and we are
picking what is best for Rome, based on 21st century hindsight we are not
much of a recreation are
we? And if you are indeed a follower of Gods as you claim, you would not be
making
this feeble argument. What God have you spoken to recently that told you
this is true? Or are you just taking a wild guess?


> What we are actually hearing is: "Hey! That guy over there is going
> to write a story about gladiators where no gladiator will die! That
> is a direct attack to the Religio Romana!" :-).
>

No that is not what we are saying. And the fact that you think this is true,
tells me
that you are not paying attention to the situation at all.

If some one is writing a novel, called "Nova Roma," and he promotes bloodless
games to protest a forign war, that is his choice and he is welcome to do it.

However, this is not the case.
We have an orginization that is commited to revive the Religio. We have
attempted when ever possible to follow the ancients' writings, or when unable
to do so use divine inspiration
to accomplish this. We now have a priestess of the Great Goddess, one who is
dovoted in researching and writing about the Great Goddess.
The Megalesia was a yearly celebration commentating the Great Goddess
arrival in Rome and her intervention
allowing the Romans to win the Second Punic War, according to the prophecy.
It is also an appeasement to her to continue to maintain her favor with Rome.
In other words let's keep her happy. It was not just an excuse to throw a
giant party which our current Aediles seems to think it is.
Now all you non members of the Religio might say that her coming to Rome and
winning the war is a load of peanut butter. Fine, that's your right since we
do celebrate freedom of religion here in Rome.
But we made sure that that non practicers who are elected Magistrates could
not express this doubt in state functions. The Megalesia is a state
function.
That is why those clauses exist. To keep impiety like this from happening.

Wait, I hear you say! If the games are virtual, and no real blood is being
shed, where is the harm?
The harm lies in the fact that duly elected magistrates are making their own
decisions on
how a state function that has a deep religious meaning is being carried out.
There in lies the
harm.

> If we where talking about *real* ludi, we might even consider
> starting this conversation (although I think that not many people
> would support *real* blood spilling in modern gladiatorial shows; I
> think that most of the practitioners of the Religio Romana believe
> that blood sacrifices are *not* necessary). But we are talking about
> stories. Fictional narration. Fun and entertainment.
>

Again you miss the point. If we believe blood sacrifice is necessary or not,

it is not up to the Aediles to change tradition for the sake of a political
statement. We have banned animal sacrifice for the time being since none of
us except for Venerator has the skill to carry it out.
However that may change in the future. After all, that is all a large Texas
cookout
is, without the religious connotation. You slaughter a cow, cook it, then
eat it, with 300 of your closest friends.

I hope this makes my objection to these proceedings clearer for you.

Q*FABIVS*MAXIMVS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Cerealia Chariot Races
From:	"curiobritannicus" <Marcusaemiliusscaurus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:00:45 -0000

Salvete omnes,

Nova Roma is certainly spoiled for Ludi this month. :-) The Ludi
Cerealia begin on 12 April, and Chariot races will be held. We are
now accepting entrants for these races - maybe this is a second
chance for all those who have been knocked out in the Ludi Megalesia!

On 13 April, the first round will be held. The semi-final will take
place on the 15th, and the final on the 17th.

If you wish to enter, please send an e-mail with "Chariot races" in
the subject heading to marcusscribonius@hotmail.com with the
following details:

Your name in Nova Roma,
The name of your driver,
Your tactics for the quarter/semi-finals,
Your tactics for the finals,
Which factio your driver will be racing for. (Blue, Red, Green or
White)

There are six tactics:
To hurry in the last laps,
To pass the curves closely the "spina" of the circus,
To support a constant pace,
To lash the rivals,
To push the rivals to the wall of the circus,
To hurry in the straight lines.

There is also the possibility of sabotaging an opponent's chariot.
You must say what factio you wish to sabotage, and there is a 45%
chance of success. If you fail, your attempt is uncovered, and you
will be banned from the race due to your dishonourable tactics. If
you succeed, one chariot from the specified factio will suffer an
accident. Of course, you will not be identified as the saboteur if
you succeed...

Subscriptions must be sent by the 11th April.

For the honour of your factio, hire a chariot!

Bene valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus,
Plebeian Aedile.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:45:11 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
>
>So... these so-called “more accurate“ terms are *not* overloaded with
>prejudicial baggage? I'm so glad you told me.

Have you heard them before? I haven't.

Certainly, now that you
>have said so, it _must_ be true. Oh, one last thing: by whose authority
>was this fiat issued?

I am using the words: I choose the words I wish use to avoid racist connotations.

>Unless you have something of substance to say, I won't belabor this
>issue any further; I believe I've made my point clearly.
>
I don't recognise any point to be made: anyone can make offence of anything. You have. Your problem.
>
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman Controversy
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:47:36 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Sicinius Drusus“ <lsicinius@yahoo.com>

>He's a specilist in Chem/Bio Warfare defense, so I'm
>pretty sure He's near Baghdad, since that is where
>they are most worried that the Butcher would use the
>weapons. We haven't heard from him since the first day
>of the war.
>
What would frighten me is the possibility of infecting Iraqis with some plague with or without antidote so they do not succumb themselves, and hand the invaders a batch of Typhoid Annies.

Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:36:01 -0000

Salvete Quirites.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/6/03 11:38:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> salixastur@y... writes:
>
> Salvete.
> > Secondly, I would like to clarify what the ludi *really* are,
> > just in case someone does not know. The ludi are basically
> > fictional *stories* written by the members of the aedilician
> > cohors.
>
>
> Of course. No one is dying in reality. So I do understand why
> people are saying what is the big deal.
> The big deal is perception and precedent.

First of all, please let me remind you that precedents have no legal
value in Nova Roma or in Roman tradition. They are an element of
Anglo-Saxon juridical systems.

> > So I think that it is not reasonable to cry "Sacrilege!" in this
> > case, even if the ludi may have had a religious origin. In fact,
> > it is quite ridiculous, if I may express my mind freely.
> >
>
> Intersting that you say this. If we are recreation of Rome, and we
> are picking what is best for Rome, based on 21st century hindsight
> we are not much of a recreation are we?

Well; we try to improve everyday :-).
But I would say that there is still a slight difference between
innocent fun just coincidentally related to Rome and the *real*
recreation of religious rituals.

> And if you are indeed a follower of Gods as you claim, you would
> not be making this feeble argument.

Well; I *am* a practitioner of the Religio, and I am making this
argument :-).

> What God have you spoken to recently that told you this is true?

Unfortunately, I do not speak with the Gods too often. The closest
thing I can do is reading auspices and auguries according to Roman
tradition. But that is beyond the point.

> Or are you just taking a wild guess?

Let me tell you a few things about how the current "ludi" where
created.

About a year ago, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus and I had the idea to
organize a small game to entertain the citizens of Hispania. It was
just an innocent game, and we certainly had no intention to claim
that it was a recreation of the ludi of Antiquity (that would have
been ridiculous). We had some fun with it, and Gnaeus Salix Galaicus
thought that it would be a good idea to bring the same game to a
national level. He convinced the aedilis Caeso Fabius Quintilianus to
organize such an event according to Galaicus's rules, and so
these "ludi" were born.

So that is what the "ludi" have been since their beginning: an
innocent entertainment. *Real* ludi are a different concept
altogether.

> > What we are actually hearing is: "Hey! That guy over there is
> > going to write a story about gladiators where no gladiator will
> > die! That is a direct attack to the Religio Romana!" :-).
> >
>
> No that is not what we are saying. And the fact that you think
> this is true, tells me that you are not paying attention to the
> situation at all.
>
> If some one is writing a novel, called "Nova Roma," and he promotes
> bloodless games to protest a forign war, that is his choice and he
> is welcome to do it.
>
> However, this is not the case.
> We have an orginization that is commited to revive the Religio. We
> have attempted when ever possible to follow the ancients' writings,
> or when unable to do so use divine inspiration to accomplish this.
> We now have a priestess of the Great Goddess, one who is dovoted in
> researching and writing about the Great Goddess.
> The Megalesia was a yearly celebration commentating the Great
> Goddess arrival in Rome and her intervention allowing the Romans to
> win the Second Punic War, according to the prophecy.
> It is also an appeasement to her to continue to maintain her favor
> with Rome.
> In other words let's keep her happy. It was not just an excuse to
> throw a giant party which our current Aediles seems to think it is.

I do know what the Megalesia are, and given that Cybele is the patron
deity of my own hometown, you can be sure that I am interested in
keeping Her happy.

But there is a big difference between *real* rituals and our current
ludi. The latter are just entertainment. Do you want to honour
Cybele? Then help organize *real* cultual rituals. That is part of
your duty as pontifex.

> Now all you non members of the Religio might say that her coming to
> Rome and winning the war is a load of peanut butter. Fine, that's
> your right since we do celebrate freedom of religion here in Rome.

I am a true Roman and a follower of the Religio. The fact that I do
not agree with you does not make me a "non-member", sorry :-).

> But we made sure that that non practicers who are elected
> Magistrates could not express this doubt in state functions. The
> Megalesia is a state function. That is why those clauses exist. To
> keep impiety like this from happening.

This is not impiety. This is just light-hearted entertainment. They
are *not* supposed to be *real* ludi.

> Wait, I hear you say! If the games are virtual, and no real blood
> is being shed, where is the harm?
> The harm lies in the fact that duly elected magistrates are making
> their own decisions on how a state function that has a deep
> religious meaning is being carried out.
> There in lies the harm.

There are not religious functions associated with the current ludi.
They are just a game. Religious rites are a serious issue.

If you really think that writing down a humorous story where
imaginary gladiators kick the hell out of each other can actually
substitute *real* religious rites, I am afraid that your point of
view seems quite impious to me. I am sure that Cybele Herself can
tell the difference.

> > If we where talking about *real* ludi, we might even consider
> > starting this conversation (although I think that not many people
> > would support *real* blood spilling in modern gladiatorial shows;
> > I think that most of the practitioners of the Religio Romana
> > believe that blood sacrifices are *not* necessary). But we are
> > talking about stories. Fictional narration. Fun and
> > entertainment.
> >
>
> Again you miss the point. If we believe blood sacrifice is
> necessary or not, it is not up to the Aediles to change tradition
> for the sake of a political statement. We have banned animal
> sacrifice for the time being since none of us except for Venerator
> has the skill to carry it out.
> However that may change in the future. After all, that is all a
> large Texas cookout is, without the religious connotation. You
> slaughter a cow, cook it, then eat it, with 300 of your closest
> friends.

Even the Ancients said that blood sacrifices where *not* necessary.

> I hope this makes my objection to these proceedings clearer for
> you.

It does; but it just shows how mistaken you are, sorry :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] RE: Scattered thoughts on race
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:10:24 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Jim Lancaster <jlancaster@foxcable.com>
>
>to me the Romans were just as bad as anyone in terms of “He's from Pontus,
>watch the silver,“ but perhaps better than modern society in that skin-color
>didn't seem pre-deterministic in the way it is in, say, my neighborhood of
>South Central Los Angeles. But I admit, I want to do more research on this
>before I commit.
>
This is largely true of Europe anyway but reflection on the ancient world might explain other reasons. They certainly had a poor opinion of child-like dangerous blonde blue-eyed giants loyal until they switched sides unexpectedly. To their South and East where people would be notably darker were older civilisations of no threat to them. To Europe's South and East was first a higher civilisation of military and cultural threat and once Europeans had escaped to buy slaves from them, it was only because technology was advancing. Africa offered no such technology or learning below the Muslim line and only reminders of ignorant peasants and the past since Europeans got there largely after cultural collapse into a Dark Age. The Americas much the same: the Aztecs were hated savages even more bloodthirsty than the Conquistadores ruling from what predecessors had built, the Maya had collapsed, the Inca had just fought their first civil war and the North was full of farmers and nomads. By the time India and China came in sight, they were recognised as equal cultures but that faded as they stood technologically still and Europe did not. Both India and China were in any case suffering the shock of rule by Mongol invaders, in India's case, with profound religious differences. Whatever else the Chinese achieved, their propensity for exquisite torture did not endear them to people just putting public torture behind them either.
Barbary pirates remained a serious impediment to shipping until United America started looking for a use for the navy it had built against Confederate America. There were barbarous African kingdoms the Portuguese dared not tangle with but did encourage to greater decadence. Rome could claim to be best at being Roman but it could not claim any kind of general cultural superiority over Semites and Egyptians.
Added to that is an intriguing reference from Herodotos checking the truth of the Golden Fleece legend that came with those 'sons' of Danawos from Liya who did not stop off to found Thebes. He says the Kolkhisites must be of Arfican origin because "Though their faces are dark and hair curled tight, yet men like that may be found *anywhere in Civilisation*, but the practise circumcision and that preversion is of purely Egyptian origin". It's 'found anywhere' that is interesting. Could there have at one time been Negro settlement north of the Sahara? We hear nothing of whether the likes of Iugurtha and Iuba were 'Aethiops' (Burnt-face). One possible pointer is the Dogon tribe who have been investigated in recent years because they know of invisible stars in the Sirius system and have 'visitor' legends. Opinion is that there were French scientists capable of meeting them in the early 20th century when Sirius B had been surmised and Sirius C is a matter of their religious symmetry whether it exists or not. Some researchers claim that they have legends of having lived by the Mediterranean. But their whole investigation is too tied up with overt agendas to prove or disprove alien communication and nobody is being too rigorous on either side. Still, there is no reason Phoenician invasion should not have pushed Negroid tribes across the Sahara.

Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Comitia Plebis tributa results
From:	"Daniel O. Villanueva" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:58:36 -0300

Tribunus Plebis Lucius Pompeius Octavianus Comitiis Plebis Tributis SPD

Salvete,

The results of the election for the 1(one) vacant office of Tribunus Plebis
have been certified by the Rogatores.
Due to the small size of many plebeian Tribes, the identities of the
citizens that voted could easily
be recognized, so the actual Tribe numbers won by each candidate will not be
published.
Here below are the results given to me by honorables rogatores :
The votes for the fourth run-off election for Tribunus
Plebis have been counted and all ties resolved.

114 valid votes were cast out of 125 total votes, in
31 tribes. No votes were cast in 4 tribes.

While one candidate did emerge the leader in the
number of tribe-votes received, that candidate did not
receive the vote of 18 tribes. The results are as follows:

Count of Uncontested Tribes:

Geminius: 5
Modius: 11 Tribes
Popillius: 10 Tribes

Marianus Adrianus Sarus (write-in) was voted for in
two tribes , but did not win them.

As Modius won the greatest number of uncontested
tribes, all ties in which he was a candidate are
awarded to him. He was a contender in all of the tied
tribes, so this, resulted in:

Modius: 16 Tribes


On behalf of myself and my colleagues Marcus Marcius Rex , Diana Moravia Aventina and L. Didius Geminus Sceptius, I would like to thank our 3 candidates for their continued participation and fortitude!
My personal thanks to our team of Rogatores for all of their hard work and helpfulness.

Valete,
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Tribunus Plebis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Mon, 7 Apr 2003 00:08:40 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete Quirites.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/6/03 11:38:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> salixastur@y... writes:
>
> Salvete.
> > Secondly, I would like to clarify what the ludi *really* are,
> > just in case someone does not know. The ludi are basically
> > fictional *stories* written by the members of the aedilician
> > cohors.
>
>
> Of course. No one is dying in reality. So I do understand why
> people are saying what is the big deal.
> The big deal is perception and precedent.

First of all, please let me remind you that precedents have no legal
value in Nova Roma or in Roman tradition. They are an element of
Anglo-Saxon juridical systems.

> > So I think that it is not reasonable to cry "Sacrilege!" in this
> > case, even if the ludi may have had a religious origin. In fact, >
> it is quite ridiculous, if I may express my mind freely.
> >
>
> Intersting that you say this. If we are recreation of Rome, and we >
are picking what is best for Rome, based on 21st century hindsight > we
are not much of a recreation are we?

Well; we try to improve everyday :-).
But I would say that there is still a slight difference between
innocent fun just coincidentally related to Rome and the *real*
recreation of religious rituals.

> And if you are indeed a follower of Gods as you claim, you would
> not be making this feeble argument.

Well; I *am* a practitioner of the Religio, and I am making this
argument :-).

> What God have you spoken to recently that told you this is true?

Unfortunately, I do not speak with the Gods too often. The closest
thing I can do is reading auspices and auguries according to Roman
tradition. But that is beyond the point.

> Or are you just taking a wild guess?

Let me tell you a few things about how the current "ludi" where
created.

About a year ago, Gnaeus Salix Galaicus and I had the idea to organize
a small game to entertain the citizens of Hispania. It was just an
innocent game, and we certainly had no intention to claim that it was a
recreation of the ludi of Antiquity (that would have been ridiculous).
We had some fun with it, and Gnaeus Salix Galaicus thought that it
would be a good idea to bring the same game to a national level. He
convinced the aedilis Caeso Fabius Quintilianus to organize such an
event according to Galaicus's rules, and so these "ludi" were born.

So that is what the "ludi" have been since their beginning: an innocent
entertainment. *Real* ludi are a different concept altogether.

> > What we are actually hearing is: "Hey! That guy over there is
> > going to write a story about gladiators where no gladiator will
> > die! That is a direct attack to the Religio Romana!" :-).
> >
>
> No that is not what we are saying. And the fact that you think
> this is true, tells me that you are not paying attention to the
> situation at all.
>
> If some one is writing a novel, called "Nova Roma," and he promotes >
bloodless games to protest a forign war, that is his choice and he > is
welcome to do it.
>
> However, this is not the case.
> We have an orginization that is commited to revive the Religio. We >
have attempted when ever possible to follow the ancients' writings, >
or when unable to do so use divine inspiration to accomplish this. >
We now have a priestess of the Great Goddess, one who is dovoted in >
researching and writing about the Great Goddess.
> The Megalesia was a yearly celebration commentating the Great
> Goddess arrival in Rome and her intervention allowing the Romans to >
win the Second Punic War, according to the prophecy.
> It is also an appeasement to her to continue to maintain her favor >
with Rome.
> In other words let's keep her happy. It was not just an excuse to >
throw a giant party which our current Aediles seems to think it is.

I do know what the Megalesia are, and given that Cybele is the patron
deity of my own hometown, you can be sure that I am interested in
keeping Her happy.

But there is a big difference between *real* rituals and our current
ludi. The latter are just entertainment. Do you want to honour Cybele?
Then help organize *real* cultual rituals. That is part of your duty as
pontifex.

> Now all you non members of the Religio might say that her coming to >
Rome and winning the war is a load of peanut butter. Fine, that's >
your right since we do celebrate freedom of religion here in Rome.

I am a true Roman and a follower of the Religio. The fact that I do not
agree with you does not make me a "non-member", sorry :-).

> But we made sure that that non practicers who are elected
> Magistrates could not express this doubt in state functions. The
> Megalesia is a state function. That is why those clauses exist. To >
keep impiety like this from happening.

This is not impiety. This is just light-hearted entertainment. They are
*not* supposed to be *real* ludi.

> Wait, I hear you say! If the games are virtual, and no real blood >
is being shed, where is the harm?
> The harm lies in the fact that duly elected magistrates are making >
their own decisions on how a state function that has a deep
> religious meaning is being carried out.
> There in lies the harm.

There are not religious functions associated with the current ludi.
They are just a game. Religious rites are a serious issue.

If you really think that writing down a humorous story where imaginary
gladiators kick the hell out of each other can actually substitute
*real* religious rites, I am afraid that your point of view seems quite
impious to me. I am sure that Cybele Herself can tell the difference.

> > If we where talking about *real* ludi, we might even consider
> > starting this conversation (although I think that not many people
> > would support *real* blood spilling in modern gladiatorial shows; >
> I think that most of the practitioners of the Religio Romana
> > believe that blood sacrifices are *not* necessary). But we are
> > talking about stories. Fictional narration. Fun and
> > entertainment.
> >
>
> Again you miss the point. If we believe blood sacrifice is
> necessary or not, it is not up to the Aediles to change tradition
> for the sake of a political statement. We have banned animal
> sacrifice for the time being since none of us except for Venerator >
has the skill to carry it out.
> However that may change in the future. After all, that is all a
> large Texas cookout is, without the religious connotation. You
> slaughter a cow, cook it, then eat it, with 300 of your closest
> friends.

Even the Ancients said that blood sacrifices where *not* necessary.

> I hope this makes my objection to these proceedings clearer for
> you.

It does; but it just shows how mistaken you are, sorry :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Congratulatios to the two blues
From:	"Daniel O. Villanueva" <danielovi@ciudad.com.ar>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:15:23 -0300

Salvete omnes.

Congratulations to the two blues that go to the semifinals : Ossifragus and Phobos!!. The best fortune during the semifinals!!!!

Bene valete
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Dominus factionis veneta



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Congratulatios to the two blues
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Mon, 7 Apr 2003 00:26:46 +0200

Salve Illustrus Senator!

What are You saying?

>Salvete omnes.
>
>Congratulations to the two blues that go to the semifinals :
>Ossifragus and Phobos!!. The best fortune during the semifinals!!!!
>
>Bene valete
>Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
>Dominus factionis veneta

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle
From:	"nathan guiboche" <nathanguiboche@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 17:43:12 -0500

Salve All

This is a great idea! I shall write about Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome, as
this is my favorite Roman!... Please don't hold this against me!!! {:-\

Quintus Sertorius
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

>From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: "Nova-Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>,"Novaromaeagle"
><Novaromaeagle@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Fall of the Roman Republic and the Eagle
>Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 23:48:09 -0500
>
>Salve Romans!
>
>I would like to start a series on the leading personalities and events of
>the Roman Republic, especially during it's last 100-150 years or so. It
>would end with the death of Augustus and the passing of his powers to
>Tiberius, the final act in the establishment of the Monarchy. You can
>write about individual people, the legal or constitutional issues involved
>or something else that interests you about his period in Roman history. If
>you are interested please e-mail me at spqr753@msn.com and tell me who or
>what you would like to write about.
>
>Vale
>
>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>Curator Differum
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quote of the day:
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:48:34 -0400

On Sun, Apr 06, 2003 at 09:45:11PM +0100, me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> >From : Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
> >
> >So... these so-called ?more accurate? terms are *not* overloaded with
> >prejudicial baggage? I'm so glad you told me.
>
> Have you heard them before? I haven't.

Therefore, your labels of "more accurate" and "devoid of prejudice" are
so much bunkum. You've used different symbols to represent _exactly_ the
same concepts as had been represented by terms deemed to be prejudiced
(else why look for aliases?), and are hiding your prejudiced behavior
behind neologisms.

> Certainly, now that you
> >have said so, it _must_ be true. Oh, one last thing: by whose authority
> >was this fiat issued?
>
> I am using the words: I choose the words I wish use to avoid racist connotations.

<shrug> You have failed miserably and conspicuously.

> >Unless you have something of substance to say, I won't belabor this
> >issue any further; I believe I've made my point clearly.
> >
> I don't recognise any point to be made: anyone can make offence of
> anything. You have. Your problem.

Your recognition isn't relevant, given that you were the one using the
racist terminology; an honest admission and an attempt to correct the
error would have been much to your benefit, but I had scant expectation
of it. As to my having a "problem", you're not of sufficient
significance in my world to be one. I pointed out that you were using
language that you may want to rethink, which presumed decency and lack
of racial prejudice on your part; all that happens now is that these
presumptions are changed.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
In magnis et voluisse sat est.
To once have wanted is enough in great deeds.
-- Propertius, "Elegies"

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
From:	"Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@telefonica.net>
Date:	Sun, 06 Apr 2003 23:04:55 -0000

Avete, Quirites!

I am a citizen with few messages or personal opinions in this list,
because as epicurean I detest the politics and the excessive
participation in discussions. However, I think that I must offer my
opinion in this issue... after all, I´m the creator of the rules of
the races that two aediles used in NR and am the "scriba primus"
(main scribe) of the Ludi this year.
Salix Astur is right. I created the ludi for the province Hispania
and its aim was the simple amusement by means of a game where the
whole citizenship could take part.
The ludi in Hispania was a great success and I thought that it would
be a good idea to bring the same game to a national level for all the
nova roman citizenship.
Nowadays is the game where more citizens take part and thanks to the
races the four factiones or colors of the circus have reborn as part
of the daily life in our Rome. I fell very proudly for this little
success and I will be always at the disposal of the aediles to help
in what is necessary to increase the prestige of our ludi and
factiones.
Of course, I never thought in a religious use because I respect (and
I knew) the Religio. My vision of races was always an popular
entertainment for the citizens.
Another issue would be to run races in the sacred Murcia Valley
(Circus Maximus) in honor of Consus and Ceres, doing before the
great "Pompa" or parade... then...yeah.. it would be a true and
fascinating Ludi. Well, maybe someday :-)


Salix Galaicus
Scriba primus ludorum

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Megalesia Affair: My Own Comments
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:19:37 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
SNIP
>
> First of all, please let me remind you that
> precedents have no legal
> value in Nova Roma or in Roman tradition. They are
> an element of
> Anglo-Saxon juridical systems.
>

So What are we to make of the Mos Maiorum?
Isn't that a set of Precedents set by our ancestors?
One that had a major bearing on how the Romans of
Antiquita conducted thier affairs, including the law?

Wasn't it common for a Praetor taking office to
announce that he would govern under the edicts of a
predecessor? Isn't that a matter of precedent?

Are you claiming that no magistrate ever defended his
actions by pointing out that they were in keeping with
the Mos Maiorum as shown an earlier magistrate doing
the same thing?

If Nova Roma lasts for generations like The Roma of
Antiquita did then won't our ancestors look apon our
actions in areas not covered by the ancient Mos
Maiorum as constituting a new Mos Maiourum? That our
precedents will be look to for advice on conducting
the affairs of Nova Roma?


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________________________
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