Subject:	Re:[Nova-Roma] Re: Latin translation
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:24:37 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Gallo Solari Alexandro salutem dicit.

Salve, Galle Solaris.

Since our fellow citizens aren't demanding that we move this to
Latinitas :-), I have a few comments in response to your remarks here.
I apologise for all the embedded quotes, but it clarifies some of the
issues we're discussing for those who haven't followed the whole
series of exchanges. I have also adopted below your style in
prefixing my name in capitals to my comments to make who is saying
what clearer to the reader.

>>>> "Dedicata restituioni Relgionis Romanae Classicae, culturae, atque
>>>>virtutum," which, by the way, you can read on the Latin version of
>>>> our web site.

>>> ITA EST NON!
>>>
>>>
>>>DEDICATVM RESTITVTIONI ROMANAE RELIGIONIS MORE MAIORVM STVDIORVM ET
>>>VIRTVTIS.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is in my opinion the correct translation.
>>>
>>>Dedicta: it's feminine. It doesn't look like it should be connected
>>>to anything feminine.

>>Roma is feminine and Nova Roma is what the past passive participle
modifies.

>>> Classicae: it's a modern word Romans would have not used.

>>Actually Romans did use classicus, -um, -a to mean "of or pertaining
>>to the highest class," which is the sense in which "classical"
>>originally came into English. That value judgment was part of the way
>>by which "classical" came to refer to a chronological period. Antiqua
>>would probably be marginally better, but it doesn't also convey the
>>value judgment which classica does.

>GALLUS SOLARIS: it's even worse than you think. Classicus means
originnally and
>ethimologically: pertaining to the ARMY. Secondly, means: pertaining
to the
>NAVY.
>Classicus as in modern "classic" DOES NOT exist in latin until GELLIVS:
>still, in Gellius means of the highest level. I like the idea of
Roman citizen
>as SOLDIERS, but this is not the desired meaning.

G. IULIUS: I don't see why you reject Aulus Gellius' Noctes Atticae
as providing a valid meaning; he's just a generation younger than
Suetonius. I think we have different views on the nature of the Latin
language and translation theory. Yes, the use of "classicus" in
Gellius' sense is not attested before the mid-second century C.E. I
see Latin as a living language through late classical antiquity and
through the middle ages. Still, even if you believe that NR Latin
vocabulary should be restricted to only the Antonines or earlier,
Gellius still qualifies as a source. If you shift the boundary of
acceptable sources for NR Latin vocabulary much earlier, we lose
Suetonius and Tacitus as sources. Should NR only use vocabulary
attested in sources before Actium? The rejection of Gellius seems
very arbitrary to me. I happen prefer "antiquae" to "classicae" for
reasons I outline below, but I recognize that other theories of
translation place more emphasis on finding etymological resonances
between the languages being translated and, thus, do not reject out of
hand the translation proposed by Julilla; nor do I reject yours out of
hand. I simply
think that Julilla's (with a few suggestions I've proffered) conveys
more of sense of the English into Latin.

>>"Religionis Romanae" would follow the stylistic tendency of Latin
>>prose to place adjectives posterior to the nouns they modify, unless
>>you are emphasizing the specifically Roman character of the religio in
>>way that context doesn't already, or there's a metrical reason here
>>I'm not scanning.

>GALLUS SOLARIS: Yes indeed, I emphasize. It's necessary. Religion, in
Latin,
>means: the cult of A divinity. To render what religion, and to render the
>national Religion of a folk, you have to put Romanae before. That is
to say, we
>don't practice the Religion of Isis, she's foreign, of Artemis, she's
foreign,
>of Jesus the Christ, he's foreign. This concerning the STATE of Nova
Roma. In
>private, you can do what you like, as it's well known.

>>> Culturae: still a word not used with our meaning in Latin.

>>I don't see what you mean by "more maiorum studiorum." Why the
>>ablative "more"? What you are translating -- "dedicated to the
>>restoration of classical Roman religion, culture, and virtues" --
>>doesn't contain anything that's particularly well rendered by any form
>>of "studium." Why not simply "moris mariorum," referring back to
>>restitutioni?

>GALLVS Solaris: You didn't grasp my sentence. Romana Religio More
Maiorum: this
>means Clasic Religion. That is to say, Roman Religion as the custom
on the
>ancients. More is in the ablative form as requested to translate "in
the way
>of...".
>
>CVLTVRA: in Latin means agriculture....It's true, in Latin we find it
used by
>Cicero. But it's a kind "cultural" use of a word which is somehow
confusing.
>STVDIA means "what you study", adding to the word the sense of
careful love in
>order to learn.

G. IULIUS: There are two problems here. First, in NR Religio Romana
is a technical term which means "the religion of the mos mairoum."
That is partly why I didn't recognized the ablative of specification
(the other was your use of studia for "culture"). Second, "classical"
in English is being used to specify chronological status (as well as
the implied value judgment), so that the English presupposes a
distinction between modern Rome and Rome of the classical period; I
think that the adjective "antiqua" conveys the
distinction that the English is making better than the "more maiorum"
construct does.

>>>Virtvtvm: in the plural means phisical strengths; you must keep it
>>>in the singular.

>>This is not so. Cicero, Ovid, and Tacitus (those are instances I
>>ecall just off the top of my head; a string search on plural forms of
>>virtus in the Latin text archives of the Perseus Project would no
>>doubt disclose more) use virtus in the plural in the sense of the
>>intrinsic excellences of a thing.

>GALLVS SOLARIS: Virtutes in in the plural has the general meaning of
"Heroic
>deeds".
>You point out a special and REALLY uncommon use of the word. The
Roman ear
>listen to virtues as "bold actions: Tacitus, that you mention, is
full of this
>use of the word.

G. IULIUS: There are several ways in which to look at this. First, I
think that "bold action" is a Roman virtue. I shall have to take a
close look at my copies of Tacitus, since I think that virtus is used
in the plural to mean more than simply "bold actions" there. In any
case, there are other translation strategies. One is to extend the
vocabulary field to mid-second-century C.E. and later, mainly
Christian, sources which use "virtutes" in the sense of "virtues" in
English and which translate the Greek "aretai" as "virtutes." There
are also a few examples of Golden and Silver period translations of
"aretai" as
"virtutes" in philosophical texts, but there are also cases where
"aretai" is translated as "bonitates" or "mores." I don't dispute
that "virtus" in the singular can refer to a "set of virtues" in
Classical usage; I am merely suggesting that the translation of
"aretai" by "virtutes" in philosophical texts argues that there were
circumstances similar to the English
sense of virtues as "good moral qualities" where Greek-Latin
bilinguals thought it appropriate.

>>I think your suggestion of "mos maiorum" is a better translation of
>>"culture" than "cultura" (although Cicero and, if I recall correctly,
>>Virgil use "cultura animi," but that's not really on point), but on
>>the whole Julilla's translation is preferrable to the one you have
>>suggested.

>GALLVS SOLARIS: cultura animi is effectively used by Cicero, but does
NOT mean
>"culture", means a kind of moral value. In Latin, if you want to say
EDUCATED,
>you can't say CVLTVS, because it only refers to agriculture again,
you have to
>say DOCTVS or ERVDITVS.
>English people should not be misleaded by the Latin origin of an
English word.
>Latin origin is misleading in Italian....think only of a German
language, where
>Latin is a medieval smartness.

G. IULIUS: I stated that the Ciceronian example of "cultura animi" was
_not_ on point. However, I think that the use of "studia" to
translate the English word "culture" is even more off point. I think
that you are misunderstanding the meaning of the English word
"culture." The English word "culture" in the instant case means more
"way of life, customs" than "something we study," although people do
study various cultures. Thus "culture" is better translated as "mos
maiorum" or "consuetudines." This was one issue on which I concurred
that Julilla's translation did not hit the mark.

>I didn't use commas, because Romans didn't.
>With commas:

>Dedicatum ( State is neutral to me, because I think of the Imperium
which is
>embodied by the State, it's to be declined DEDICATA if you think of Res
>Publica) restitutioni: religionis Romanae more maiorum, studiorum et
virtutis.

G. IULIUS: No need for commas :-). I don't think one needs to
hypothesize "imperium" or "res publica" as the past passive
participle's governing noun, since the original post specified Nova
Roma which is feminine and, therefore, requires "dedicata."

Vale bene.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[Nova-Roma]_ACADEMIA=B7ANNOUNCE?=
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:02:33 -0400 (EDT)

Hmmmmm! I guess that I see anything wrong with making Academia
Announcements. Personally I welcome these annoncements to Militarium
and Egressus. My reasoning for doing so is simply that there are people
in NR who are totally disgusted with the Main LIst material, but who
have stayed with a favorite Sodalitas.

I don't think anyone knows how many of those people there are, and maing
an annoucement to all Sodalitas within NR seems like a reasonable way to
accomplish letting "everyone" know what is going on.

There are those in Nova Roma of course who are dead set against the
Academia, for whatever reason. However, everyone has thier preferred
topics.

I can remember when I have been told in the past, if I didn't like
something on the Main List "simply use the delete key."

In regard to the other related NR Lists, it is easy enough to close a
Sodaltas Weblist to any unwanted or unapproved E-Mail, certainly easier
than continuing to complain about it. For my part, I am pleased to
welcome announcements from the Academia to Militarium and Egressus, and
I, in addition congratulate the Academia Triumvirs for all of thier hard
work, and the energy with which they pursue the advertisement of the
Academia and it's offerings.

In passing I was not aware that "anything had been settled" at any time
in this regard. Had I thought so, I would have spoken up earlier.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Not far away afterall!
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 03:40:50 -0000

Salvete omnes,

Alas I have high speed internet in my office at our remote drilling
location in our North West Territories. The wonders of satillites!
The barbarian wilderness becomes easier to handle these days! I can
keep in touch with NR while away. You can get me over the next few
weeks at miguelkelly15@hotmail.com

Valete bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNova-Roma=5D_ACADEMIA=B7ANNOUNCE?=
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:23:36 -0700

Ave Senator,

Its spam.

I do not mind receiving the notification on the ML, and the announce list..and even a sodalitas list (if it is appropriate) but to have citizens receive 10 copies of the same message makes the sender a spammer. And it violates many ISP service agreements/terms of service.

Senator Gn. Salix sent his post to 27 lists. That is excessive and I would not be surprised if he has been reported to violating the terms of not only Yahoogroups but to the company who gave him his email address (which is yahoo) as well.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: MarcusAudens@webtv.net
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] ACADEMIA·ANNOUNCE


Hmmmmm! I guess that I see anything wrong with making Academia
Announcements. Personally I welcome these annoncements to Militarium
and Egressus. My reasoning for doing so is simply that there are people
in NR who are totally disgusted with the Main LIst material, but who
have stayed with a favorite Sodalitas.

I don't think anyone knows how many of those people there are, and maing
an annoucement to all Sodalitas within NR seems like a reasonable way to
accomplish letting "everyone" know what is going on.

There are those in Nova Roma of course who are dead set against the
Academia, for whatever reason. However, everyone has thier preferred
topics.

I can remember when I have been told in the past, if I didn't like
something on the Main List "simply use the delete key."

In regard to the other related NR Lists, it is easy enough to close a
Sodaltas Weblist to any unwanted or unapproved E-Mail, certainly easier
than continuing to complain about it. For my part, I am pleased to
welcome announcements from the Academia to Militarium and Egressus, and
I, in addition congratulate the Academia Triumvirs for all of thier hard
work, and the energy with which they pursue the advertisement of the
Academia and it's offerings.

In passing I was not aware that "anything had been settled" at any time
in this regard. Had I thought so, I would have spoken up earlier.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Chariot Races Final!!!
From:	Rob Sullivan <rysullivan@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:19:53 -0700 (PDT)

Savales, Congratulations to Imperator Invictus and Factio Albata. My apollogies to Factio Veneta, as I retire to the stable to repair Orionis Draco, reinforce the wheels and discuss proper tactics with Equus Magnus. The races were exciting and fun. Again, congratulations to Factio Albata. We'll see you at the next Ludi. Viva Veneta!!! vale,Titus Licinius Crassus

curiobritannicus <Marcusaemiliusscaurus@hotmail.com> wrote:
Salvete omnes!

The final is upon us! Out of more than 20 excellent racing drivers,
we have found the four finalists who will be competing for the
championship of the Ludi Cerealia. The four cives whose chariots
have made it this far are cheered to their seats by the fans - Marcus
Octavius Germanicus, with his chariot B.S.D. Liber representing
Albata, along with his teammate Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa, who owns the
chariot Imperator Invictus. Representing Veneta is the chariot
Orionis Draco, owned by Titus Licinius Crassus. Marcus Minucius
Audens of Praesina owns the fourth chariot, Green Flash. So, with
these cives still basking in the applause. let the race begin!

************************FINAL********************

Name: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
factio: Albata
driver: Carolus Daemonicus
chariot: B.S.D. Liber
q/s tactic: hurry in last laps
fin tactic: pass closely the spina

Name: Titus Licinius Crassus
Factio: Veneta
Chariot: Orionis Draco
Driver: Equus Magnus
Quarters and Semi Strategy: (6)
Finals Strategy: (2)

Name: Marcus Minucius Audens
Factio: Praesina
Driver: Pugio
Name of Chariot:Green Flash
Tactics: Hurry in last laps

Name: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
Factio: Albata
Driver: Draco Borealis
Chariot: Imperator Invictus
Tactics: To push the rivals to the wall of the circus (all rounds)

So, we have the final four. This is the big moment, quirites! We
have fans of Albata, Praesina, and Veneta, all hoping this is their
moment. And maybe a few confused Russata fans as well, perhaps
disbelieving the fact that their mighty armada of chariots did not
reach the final. But there go the chariots! Green Flash hurries
ahead, and Audens curses Pugio's impetuosity in disobeying his
instructions. However, it seems to work, as only Orionis Draco is
able to keep up - both Imperator Invictus and B.S.D. Liber are left
far behind. Imperator Invictus attempts to push B.S.D. Liber against
the circus walls, but Carolus Daemonicus avoids this skillfully.
Meanwhile, Orionis Draco is slowly catching up with Green Flash by
cutting corners wherever possible. And then, they are neck and neck,
with Green Flash on the inner track, hoping this will knock enough
seconds off its time to gain the advantage over Orionis Draco.
Meanwhile, Imperator Invictus surges ahead of B.S.D. Liber, giving up
trying to destroy the expert Daemonicus. But look what's happening
ahead! Orionis Draco has moved inwards, knowing that his tactics
will be impossible to use unless he's on the inside. But Pugio
bravely refuses to move, and Orionis Draco, infuriated, moves in
further, soon colliding with Green Flash. Green Flash is thrown
against the walls, where Pugio sustains a small bump to the head,
forgetting the entire race. Orionis Draco, on the other hand, has
its wheel broken, and also comes to a halt. Imperator Invictus
speeds past the two unlucky drivers, with B.S.D. Liber not far
behind. B.S.D. Liber draws up beside Imperator Invictus, but is
forced to fall back when Imperator Invictus also moves inwards,
threatening to give B.S.D. Liber the same fate as Green Flash! They
continue battling for position, but its too late for B.S.D. Liber as
Imperator Invictus crossed the finish line, followed only 2 seconds
later by B.S.D. Liber.

Winner: Imperator Invictus
2nd: B.S.D. Liber
3rd: Accident!
4th: Accident!

We have our winner! The champion of the Ludi Cerealia Chariot Races
is Imperator Invictus, driven by Draco Borealis and owned by Gaius
Vipsanius Agrippa. This truly is a time of strength for the Albata
factio! Congratulations, Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa!

Many thanks for watching the races of the Ludi Cerealia, and enjoy
the rest of the Ludi!

Bene valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Abbreviations in Latin Inscriptions
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 07:27:56 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the "Abbreviations in Latin Inscriptions" website:

http://asgle.classics.unc.edu/abbrev/latin/

This site, created by Tom Elliott at Univ. of North Carolina, is
extremely useful for deciphering the abbreviations frequently used in
Roman inscriptions and includes two lists of abbreviations (one the
most common ones used in Latin inscriptions published in _L'AnnŽe
ƒpigraphique_, 1888-1993, the other all the abbreviations in _L'AnnŽe
ƒpigraphique_ in the same period) as well as a methodological essay.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest No 548 Loos ing at the National Museum of Iraq
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:05:54 -0700 (PDT)

G. Iulius Scaurus
Thank you for that,and the Vet's you are talking about
were they the POW's that we tried to retrieve but
failed?

G.P.Brutis
--- Gregory Rose <gfr@intcon.net> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Lucio Equitio Cincinnato Auguri
> salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Luci Equiti Augur.
>
> The National Museum of Iraq is located on the border
> between the
> relatively upscale Karkh neighborhood and the slums
> of Saddam City.
> There is no question that the overwhelming majority
> of the looters
> were impoverished Shi'is from Saddam City (although
> there is some
> evidence now appearing that professionals in the
> employ of foreign art
> collectors may have had a role in some of the thefts
> and took care to
> destroy museum records to impede any future legal
> action taken against
> recipients of stolen antiquities on the black
> market). Some of the
> sheer nihilistic destruction, e.g., the smashing of
> pottery shards
> used for typological dating in the museum workshops
> and the defacing
> of monumental sculptures too large and heavy to be
> removed easily from
> the building, suggests that some were simply
> striking out at anything
> that might have been a symbol of the Ba'athist
> regime. After all,
> Iraq's internal propaganda has for years portrayed
> Saddam as the
> embodiment of Mesopotamia's former glory in Sargon
> I, Hammurabi,
> Nebuchadnezzar, etc. (that units of the Republican
> Guard bore those
> names is not accidental).
>
> The sense in which the United States bears
> responsibility is the fact
> that the U.S. government assured American and
> international scholars,
> whose expertise it sought to map sites of
> archaeological and cultural
> importance before the war, that the National Museum
> of Iraq would be
> protected against the looting which experts
> predicted would follow the
> fall of Saddam and his government. Specifically, I
> know for a fact
> (by virtue of knowing some of scholars involved)
> that Donald Rumsfeld
> gave his personal assurance to a delegation of
> American scholars that
> guards would be dispatched to the National Museum of
> Iraq the moment
> coalition forces reached Baghdad. U.S. forces were
> in the vicinity of
> the museum as early as last Monday (we know this
> from journalists who
> were embedded with those forces). The museum was
> looted on Wednesday
> and Thursday.
>
> The U.S. is not a signatory to the 1954 Hague
> Convention and,
> therefore, is not obligated to observe it. However,
> I do not think it
> unreasonable to expect the responsible cabinet
> officer, speaking on
> behalf of the U.S. government, to keep his word
> given to American
> citizens that the museum would be protected. From
> the nonchalant
> response of Rumsfeld to news of the looting I
> conclude that he is a
> man without honour whose conduct has brought
> disgrace on the nation
> whose armed forces he directs. As a Vietnam veteran
> I am personally
> acquainted with officials of my government lying to
> the American
> people (e.g., at a time when the government was
> assuring Americans and
> the rest of the world that no U.S. troops were in
> Laos, I knew damned
> well that we had troops in Laos because I helped
> draft their
> operations orders in country). I had hoped things
> had changed, but
> Secretary Rumsfeld has proven me wrong.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
>
>


__________________________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest No 548 Loos ing at the National Museum of Iraq
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:50:21 -0700 (PDT)

Manius Villius Limitanus
My Friend
There is no fact that there was large numbers of items
destroyed, BUT if one item is destroyed than it is a
horrible thing and those who did this shall be hunted
down.

On to something else.....
Please Limitanus do not make this war in to a
Religious war. This does nothing than to show
stupidity and breeds hate. I only wish that people
would not try to make this in to a Religious war and
choose to persecute those who are over there right
now.
I am a Christian/Jew "and not the only one" that will
never push any of you whom worships other Gods down
for your believes!
To think that over time there have been things said
here that did nothing but to bring others down.

I am one who was glad to see that others would under
go great heights to learn about there Gods,"as a child
I was a believer in Odin and Thor". I only ask that we
see each other in our shoes and not try to under-mind
this.
If you say your are for peace, than clean your own
heart, let not your feelings for others be based on
Religion.
I say if you want to hate someone like myself than
hate because I'm such a big mouth and a total
butt-head, and not for there believes.

TO all other Nova Romans
Please forgive me I'm on DRUGS.........Just Joking....
But I'm sorry I had to get that off my chest.


May the Gods bless us
G.P.Brutis



--- Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> wrote:
> Em Seg, 2003-04-14 às 22:35, quintuscassiuscalvus
> escreveu:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Michel Loos
> <loos@q...> wrote:
> >
> > > The Hague Protocol 1954, especially chapter 4
> Article 15.
> > > It concerns all parties in War, including Civil
> Wars.
> > >
> > > Manius Villius Limitanus
> >
> > Salve,
> >
> > Again, the United States and Great Britain are not
> signatuary nations
> > to the 1954 Hague Convention or its Protocols and
> are under no
> > International legal obligation to prevent the
> looting of the Iraqi
> > museum. It only legally obligates those nations
> who are signatuaries
> > to the Hague Convention of 1954. I posted earlier
> a list of the
> > signatuary nations which includes amongst others
> Iraq. So if there
> > was a war crime committed it was committed by the
> Iraqi looters in a
> > form of civil insurrection.
> >
>
> I read it, and agree legally. This was in answer to
> somebody that asked
> for references.
>
> Unfortunately, international laws are still nation
> based instead of
> humankind based.
>
> > Does the United States and Britain have a moral
> obligation to do
> > something about the looting? Yes, they certainly
> do. The best thing
> > to do is to work to retrieve as much of the looted
> antiquities as
> > possible. Given that currently the troops of
> Great Britain and the
> > United States are equiped for combat, not crowd
> control (except in
> > China where tank treads are considered an
> acceptable form of crowd
> > control) any intervention by coalition forces
> would have made matters
> > even worse. Instead of bitching about the looting
> (I don't condone
> > the looting) there would be screams to high heaven
> about the
> > slaughter of Iraqi civilians. Antiquities can be
> recovered with time
> > and effort, human lives can not. The failure to
> inverene in the
> > looting was, in my opinion, the lesser of two
> evils.
> >
>
> Many antiquities were simply destroyed, no way to
> recover them.
> The best way to protect cultural treasures is not to
> make war, specially
> imperialistic and religious wars.
>
> For the people that think that this is an anti-US
> position, check the
> archives about the Budas destroyed by the Taleban.
>
> Vale
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
>
> --
> Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Anti-U.S.
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 03:20:41 -0700 (PDT)

Well said.


--- jmath669642reng@webtv.net wrote:
> Unfortunately I must disagree that Master Loos "has
> reched the bottom"
> of his anti-U.S. tirade.
>
> In very similar fashion to the arab news agencies
> around the the
> Mid-East, anything that the U.S. does it will be
> seen, by him, in a
> negative light:
>
> --Freeing Iraq from the grip of a dictator --
> Colonizing the Country /
> stealing it's oil;
>
> --Bringing food, water and medicine to one time
> enemies -- didn't happen
> soon enough;
>
> --Helping wounded enemy soldiers -- staging a untrue
> scene;
>
> As in the above examples no matter what the U.S.
> does, there will be
> those who will see and attack that part of the
> action which can be
> questioned or in any way be suspect or criticized.
>
> Master Loos is one NR Citizen whose messages I
> delete first as his
> anti-U.S. feelings come through in nearly every one
> of his posts (Bagdad
> Bob comes to mind). Since his views are often in
> error, (Much like
> B.B.) I see no value in reading them.
>
> In regard to some others on this list, who have
> provided detailed and
> interesting infrmation for consideration, I am
> willing to listen to
> thier comments even though they may not be
> flattering, but in the former
> case, I anticipate no diminishing of the anti-U.S.
> word flow, and since
> no information worthy of the name accompanies such
> feeling from Master
> Loos, his comments for my part constitute a waste of
> my valuable time.
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
>
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Roman Concrete
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 03:45:38 -0700 (PDT)

G. Iulius Scaurus
Have you heard of anything on the Egyptian? using a
form of concrete?
G.P.Brutis


--- Gregory Rose <gfr@intcon.net> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to the "Roman Pantheon: The Triumph of
> Concrete" website:
>
> http://www.romanconcrete.com/
>
> The site's creator is David Moore, a professional
> engineer with
> serious interests in how Roman concrete was
> manufactured and used in
> Roman construction. It is clear that Mr. Moore has
> a fixation on
> concrete, but his professionalism, scientific
> training, and dedication
> to understanding this vital Roman construction
> material is outstanding.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off again
From:	"G.Porticus Brutis" <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 03:59:38 -0700 (PDT)

Be careful My friend and a safe journey.
We shall keep you in our prayers and above all have
fun....or as much fun as you can have at work..LOL
Brutis
--- Quintus Lanius Paulinus <mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I'm off to the field to work for a few weeks. If we
> have internet
> access at our site I'll keep in touch. Take care and
> keep out of
> trouble!
>
> Quintus L. Paulinus
>
>


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest No 548 Looting at the National Museum of Iraq
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:34:06 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus G. Portico Bruti salutem dicit.

Salve, G. Portice.

I was not referring to POW's or MIA's. I was referring to Special
Forces operators leading indigenous tribal militias in Laos. I was an
staff intelligence officer who helped choose targets and draft
portions of the operations orders for U.S. Army personnel operating in
Laos. At the time it was interesting to note that Nixon or Laird were
blarring on Armed Forces Radio the denials that we had any personnel
in Laos while I typed ops orders directing the officially non-existent
American troops to conduct operations in Laos (where, of course, there
were no American forces). If they weren't in Laos they wouldn't need
the detailed map coordinates on their orders (and I vividly remember
the SPC-4 who went back to PVT when he mistyped coordinates in an op
order that put a team four grid squares away from their planned
insertion and onto an entirely different mapsheet). And I've yet to
meet a Hmong who could speak American Black Dialect English with a
deep Alabama drawl, peppered with obscenities referring to members of
his local draft board -- so when I heard the call over the radio at
the ops shack about "contact" and the "need to get a mutterfuking
dustoff" with coordinates over the border about six kilometers,
followed by comments about the sex lives, preferences in dogs to
sodomize, etc., of leading citizens of Birmingham, I assumed it was
SGT Ford, not one of his Hmong associates :-).

Vale in pace Deorum.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Concrete
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:41:46 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus G. Portico Bruti salutem dicit.

Salve, G. Portice.

> Have you heard of anything on the Egyptian? using a
> form of concrete?
> G.P.Brutis

I am neither an engineer nor an Egyptologist, so I don't have an
answer for you. I do however have some friends in Egyptology and
Egyptian archaeology and am happy to ask them about it.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest No 548 Loos ing at the National Museum of Iraq
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:20:36 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “G.Porticus Brutis“ <celtic4usa@yahoo.com>
Subject : Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest No 548 Loos ing at the National Museum of Iraq
>
>On to something else.....
>Please Limitanus do not make this war in to a
>Religious war. This does nothing than to show
>stupidity and breeds hate. I only wish that people
>would not try to make this in to a Religious war and
>choose to persecute those who are over there right
>now.
>
It rather looks as if one faction in Baghdad is on the streets already trying to make their own religious war for an Islamic Republic. Whatever else Saddam did, Iraq is a secular 'western' society so they look like just the kind of trouble which could lead to a longer Occupation (and perhaps is intended to) to prevent them from making a minority coup.

Caesariensis


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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] CEREALIA MUNERA - SO LONG AWAITED FINALS
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Lucius=20Arminius=20Faustus?= <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:24:40 -0300 (ART)

The public goes to the Anphiteather Fauste still anxious. There is just one more day for the Cerealia endind on the most solemn 19 april. The surprise final of the munera was already postponed on two days. The chariot races ended yesterday, gloriously.



But... there was different things on the arena. In fact, at both sides there was two water streams flowing, small rivers artificially constructed, with water brought from a nearby aqueduct... even more than Law and armies, the romans was great by being master of engineering...



Who could imagine what the rivers were? The Simoeis and the Xanthos! In fact, around the arena, all cenary ambientation was like a scene of the Iliad!



- A battle! – the public cheered. – The final will be a battle from the War of Troy!



The horns make the announce, and on oposite sides, two armies, greeks and trojans, come to the arena of the plain of Ilion. They weren´t like the usual gladiator uses, but armed with shining spears ans swords, brass cuirass and brilhants helms.



On the greek army, Claw, sent by M. Minucius Audens, was might Diomedes. Felicianus, sent by G. Iulius Scaurus, was Ajax Oileus. Leo Aquilonis, sent by G. Vipsanius Agrippa, was the cretan Idomeneus and Robur sent by T. Anneus Otho, was Toas, the etolian.



On the trojans, Zozimus, sent by G. Iulius Scaurus, was prince Paris, Seneca, sent by S. Cornelius Cotta, was Pândaros son of Licaon, Carnifex, sent by Q. Salix Cantabricus, was Sarpedon son of Iove; and finally Ursus, sent by P. Domitianus Artorinus, was the lician Glaucos.



Aedile Faustus arose from his seat, and adressed to people.



- I hereby open the last final of the Munera Cerealia, offering to the roman people a brilliant performance from Homer pages. Enjoy our small surprise, quirites...



But the Aedile has not make mention to stop, and continued:



- Sure the gods are pleased with our games, but on the Trojan Plains, they certainly weren´t as today... The gods sure were angry with both armies. Against the greeks, was the foreboder Phoebus Apolo, the far-darting. In fact, the greeks could even hear a dread clanging of the silver bow shooting them.



On this time, from the first seats, four archers stood up. They aimed the four greeks and shooted. The crowd cried as crazy, but the gladiators on scare avoided the arrows running.



- Not only against the greeks! Against the trojans was also Netune Enosigeus, the Earth-Shaker! Many times his trident has crushed the Earth under the dardanian feet!



As the Aedile has finished to talk, a big trapdoor, stealth by the sands, opened bellow the four trojans gladiators, and they has fallen on the basement under the arena crying.

They still were insulting the aedile by his treachery, when from the basemente started coming steam! Below, the arena servants threw on them boiling water to gentle help to come again to the arena without complaing. The four trojans jumped again to the sands faster than anyone on the Amphiteather could imagine.

- You´re mad, Aedile! All your base are belong to us! – some cried from the public.

- For great justice! – another citizen complemented.

- LET`S START THE BATTLE! – the aedile shouted and sat.

So on the arena Felicianus turned to his colleagues and said:

- So we are here, still alive! Nailed on a bloodlust of a Homeric Nightmare. Let´s attack with our broad swords and finish it all. I don´t want to expect tem minutes on carnage, neither ten years or war.

So spake him and all greeks moved to attack.

But the trojans were lead by Zozimus of loud war cry, who cried:

- Spears!

Then they hurled their spears. Since on the dardanian team there was the essedarius, they get advantage on the weapon.

The spears rain killed tiger-like Claw and Felicianus. On the first, it trespassed all body by the belly at the point of the nevil. Felicianus was even unlucky, the point entered by his eye and sticked on his brain.

But the might Leo Aquilonis and Robur, having avoided the points directed to their brave hearts, spreaded havoc between the four trojans. Leo killed Carnifex with the heavy sword. Robur was even smarter. Since Ursus parried the strike, he unexpected kicked him with all forces of his leg. Ursus was pushed far behind and has fallen on the still opened trapdoors. His head felt direct on the basement bellow the arena and his neck was broken. The helm was useless against dark Fate.

The crowd cried a lot, seemed the public has fallen together.

Seneca turned against Robur and striked. The arm of Robur was CUT off! Robur cried but Seneca feeling pleasure on the slaughtering sticked the sword on the middle of the enemy open mouth. Robur stopped to cry, dead, as the point ripped the throat to his brain.

Zozimus has not unluck, because dead Carnifex seemed to help him. As the trojan felt, he embraced the feet of Leo on agony. The greek with the leg trapped really was carried to deep Hades by the dead, because Zozimus took advantage and nailed a spear on the middle of his chest, as he was unable to evade. Achilonis felt up Carnifex recently slaughtered.

On the arena, the two trojans reigned might, Zozimus and Seneca. They came under the honour tribune.Aedile Faustus raise to greet them:



- You both come to me like I´m king Priamus and you are Heleno and Deifobo, asking the hand of the blond Helen. In fact, there is a Helen for you strife between yourselves, there is only just one Helen... – and the aedile shows a rudus, a sole rudus, the wood sword, prize of the gladiators, meaning the liberty gained on victory. - ... for this Helen you both shall fight until death, might trojans!



They understood the last challenge and turned themselves...



This was a crude combat of two hard tempered men. The swords shined against the cuirass. Many times one wounded the other. Pretty violent. While Seneca has cut a finger of the hand of Zozimus, he has blinded one of his eyes.



But they continued to fight, progressed so long on the carnage, they would´nt give up easily. When the gods have decided the fatal wound: Zozimus crushed Seneca´s cuirass under his sharp blade. The bronze ripped skin, ribs, lungs, and heart on its path. Seneca felt silent on the sands, chest opened, silent and honoured giving its soul to the kingdon of Aeidoneus and Proserpine, the daughter of Mother Ceres.



Then Aedile Faustus annouces cheerful:



- THE WINNER OF THE 2756 CEREALIA MUNERA IS ZOZIMUS, THE ESSEDARIUS, BROUGHT AND SPONSORED BY ILLUSTRIOUS GAIUS IULIUS SCAURUS!





The Aedile throws the rudus for him. The gladiator picks it on the air and kisses a lot. The crowd makes noise, greeting the winner and survivor on the imortal glory of the arena.



































Vale bene in pacem deorum,





L. Arminius Faustus





Plebeian Aedile







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