Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 589
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 01:05:02 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Violentillae Titiniae Saltatrici salutem dicit.

Salve, Violentilla Titinia.

> I'm pretty dim when it comes to Roman history, is this a load of
hooey, or is
> it really up for debate? It came across my local Pagan list.
[snip]
> > Woman may have founded ancient Rome
> >
> > By Bruce Johnston in Rome
> > (Filed: 22/04/2003)
> >
> > Rome celebrated its 2,756th birthday yesterday, amid claims that
> > the city may have been founded by a Trojan woman called Roma
> > and not, as legend has it, by Romulus.
> >
> > According to Rome's Il Messaggero newspaper, a fragment of
> > writing by the Graeco-Sicilian poet Stesichorus (638-555 BC)
> > recounts how a woman named Roma arrived with a Trojan fleet
> > in an idyllic place that could easily be Rome.
[remaining journalistic nonsense snipped]

Hellanicus of Mytilene, a 5th-century BCE Greek historian, ascribed
the founding of Rome to Aeneas and claimed that Aeneas named it after
a particularly comely Trojan woman in his fleet named Rhome. There is
an allusion to this same story in a fragment of a poem attributed to
the early 6th-century Stesichorus of Himera.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 589
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 01:26:25 -0000

Salve Violentilla,

In my opinion the two stories surrounding the founding of Ancient
Rome and Troy and the Trojan war with its spin offs are probably
based on some truths mixed with a lot of myths and superstitons; the
two events told in stories, were not ever documented on stone or
pypyras as done by other civilizations like Egypt or the Assyrians
during their early important events. This makes any claims, so called
facts or historical revision very hazy at best.

To me Rome was a small community of bright strong indigenous people
who started off from a little mud village, faced all sorts of
obstacles from nature as well as invading enemies, were very
tenacious, never giving up,just grew, expanded and flourished while
absorbing other tribes then cultures.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jademermaid@a... wrote:
>
> I'm pretty dim when it comes to Roman history, is this a load of
hooey, or is
> it really up for debate? It came across my local Pagan list.
>
> Visne saltare?
>
> Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix
>
>
> > Woman may have founded ancient Rome
> >
> > By Bruce Johnston in Rome
> > (Filed: 22/04/2003)
> >
> > Rome celebrated its 2,756th birthday yesterday, amid claims that
> > the city may have been founded by a Trojan woman called Roma
> > and not, as legend has it, by Romulus.
> >
> > According to Rome's Il Messaggero newspaper, a fragment of
> > writing by the Graeco-Sicilian poet Stesichorus (638-555 BC)
> > recounts how a woman named Roma arrived with a Trojan fleet
> > in an idyllic place that could easily be Rome.
> >
> > Romulus and Remus
> >
> > The scene was described as one of enchanting beauty, where
> > before the setting sun the visitor was "enticed to dream while
> > being caressed by the off-shore breeze".
> >
> > Roma fell so in love with the spot that she conspired with the
> > other women to burn all the ships, so that the party would have
to
> > stay. Once they were stranded, the group all agreed that they
> > should name the place after her.
> >
> > The tale's claims are strengthened by the fact that Stesichorus
> > was born just 115 years after the founding of Rome.
> >
> > According to legend, Romulus, one of the male twins descended
> > from Aeneas, prince of Troy, and suckled by a she-wolf after
> > being cast adrift on the Tiber, founded ancient Rome in 753 BC,
> > after slaying his brother Remus.
> >
> > As latter-day Romans mulled over the significance of
> > Stesichorus's tale, about 1,000 people dressed as gladiators,
> > centurions, emperors and maidens marched through the city
> > yesterday led by the "Goddess Roma" clutching a spear and an
> > orb.
> >
> > http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
> >
xml=/news/2003/04/22/wrome22.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/22/ixworld.html
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Coins
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 05:29:53 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to the American Numismatic Society's excellent
"Introduction to Roman Coins":

http://www.numismatics.org/publications/romangeneral/

And a link to noted numismatist David R. Sear's "Eight Hundred Years
of Roman Coinage":

http://www.ece.iit.edu/~prh/coins/PiN/rc.html

This is an essay from the online version of Saul B. Needleman, ed.,
_Perspectives in Numismatics: Studies Presented to the Chicago Coin
Club_ (Chicago, 1986).

And a link to the Univ. of Saskatchewan Museum of Antiquities"
"Introduction to Roman Coins":

http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/roman_coins.html

The section on mints and minting authority has some interesting detail.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Quintus Sertorius (Running out of sources)
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 05:59:50 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus G. Sentio Bruttio Surae salutem dicit.

Salve, G. Senti Brutti.

> I am looking for information on Quintus Sertorius,
> preferably ancient sources, but there is very little
> to be found. I've already looked in Appian, Sallust,
> Plutarch and Frontinus, and I was wondering if anyone
> can help with some names of decent sources?

You've rather much exhausted the ancient sources, although W. H.
Bennet, 'The death of Sertorius and the coin', _Historia_ 10 (1961),
459-72, might be of some interest. You might be able to mine some
references from the other secondary literature. For a long time the
standard work on Q. Sertorius was in German, A. Schulten, _Sertorius_
(Leipzig 1927). However, P.O. Spann, _Quintus Sertorius and the
Legacy of Sulla_ (Fayetteville, 1987) is a major recent addition and
L. A. Curchin, _Roman Spain_ (London 1991) has interesting material on
Sertorius. Also the second volume of the CIL may have something
epigraphic of interest, but Spann or Curchin has probably cited it if
there is (it's been more than a decade since I've looked at either
book and I don't recall).

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Coins
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 06:14:21 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to the American Numismatic Society's excellent
> "Introduction to Roman Coins":

<<snipped for brevity>>

Thank you very much for those suggestions, Gai Iuli. I enjoyed them
very much, since I had been looking for a good introduction to Roman
numismatics for some time.

Bene valete in pace Deorum!

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Coins
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 06:24:40 -0000

Salve Gnae et Gai,

Thanks for those Ancient Roman and Celtic coin sites. I have 12 or so
Roman coins in my collection. I had 1 big coin of Nero made into a
guys necklace but mounted in such a way as it is protected and not
damaged. I get more attention and questions about that item than I
would with a diamond or gold rolex. Its fun to have affordable
objects 2000 years old; you often wonder what characters held them
all those years. I chose Nero not cause of his personality but I find
his coins are the biggest and more attractive that I have seen so far.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gnaeus Salix Astur"
<salixastur@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> > G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
> >
> > Avete, Quirites.
> >
> > Here's a link to the American Numismatic Society's excellent
> > "Introduction to Roman Coins":
>
> <<snipped for brevity>>
>
> Thank you very much for those suggestions, Gai Iuli. I enjoyed them
> very much, since I had been looking for a good introduction to
Roman
> numismatics for some time.
>
> Bene valete in pace Deorum!
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Questions on Citizenship and the Forum
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 06:51:59 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Mike Elkins salutem dicit.

Salve, Mr. Elkins.

> So, I'm aware that gaining citizenship in the early empire was
possible but
> not easy for foreigners, and that there were several lesser forms
given out
> as rewards (for instance, the Latin Rights?) My first question is
this,
> how much service would a group of foreigners have to do for the
> emperor/empire to be realistically granted citizenship? How about
> individuals from that group? If the answer is "wouldn't happen",
then what
> forms of lesser rights might be offered? Would they be able to buy
> property in Rome?

How difficult it was for a provincial to obtain citizenship depended a
great deal on social status. In the early principate Augustus was
criticised for the liberality with which he granted citizenship to the
tribal aristocracy of Gallia, and the adlection of a handful of Gauls
to the Senate (although most of these senators were likely to have
been sons of Roman colonists from Gallia Narbonensis). The epigraphic
evidence confirms the literary accounts of Augustus' generosity to the
top stratum of Gallic society. A relative generosity in granting
citizenship to the local aristocracy to Hispania by C. Iulius Caesar
in the late Republic is also attested by epigraphy. Still we are not
talking about large numbers. Pompeius Magnus seems to have followed a
similar, if somewhat more restrained, policy in his organisation of
the Roman provinces in the east, although I doubt that the majority of
decuriones in the eastern provinces were Roman citizens before the
reign of Claudius, perhaps even Nero (this is complicated by the fact
that decurial donative and funerary epigraphs in the east in the first
century CE put much more emphasis on citizenship in the polis than on
Roman citizenship). The principal means for obtaining citizenship
below this social level was service in auxiliary units of the Roman
army; the traditionally cited terms of 20-25 years before grant of
citizenship can be a bit misleading because there is some evidence
that wholesale grants of citizenship were given occasionally to at
least a few auxiliary units in connection with imperial donatives on
accession (the evidence comes from units on the Rhine and in
Illyricum, so we don't know how common the practise really was; I
personally think it wasn't that common, but there is scholarly
disagreement on that point).

> Here is a second question: if you wanted to put on a small public
> performance (the size of a puppet show, not an actual play) where
could you
> set it up? Would the forum be available to newcomers? Would you
have to
> purchase an area like at a flea market?

I've read fairly widely in the Roman economic history literature and I
can't recall a source which discusses this sort of thing in detail
specifically about the city of Rome in the early principate. Both
literary and archaeological evidence indicate commercial activity in
the fora, but I don't think we know much about how it was organised
except for legislation and edicta limiting trade associations (much of
this seems to have been aimed against coniurationes which might have
had political implications). My strong suspicion is that we simply
don't have the evidence on which to decide the specific questions you
ask. Certainly Martial and Juvenal have some nasty things to say
about foreign tradespeople and salesmen flooding Rome, but their
remarks are about Rome in the Flavian period.

> Mike Elkins (who will choose a name when he is sure he understands
all the
> connotations of his choice :)

May I take the occasion to suggest that you consider the gens Iulia?
You can find out more about us in the Album Gentium at
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/gens?gensid=16.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Coins
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 06:57:18 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Salici Asturi et Q. Lanio Paulino salutem dicit.

Salvete, Gn. Salix et Q. Lani.

Thank you for the kind words. I have a few more numismatic links;
I'll dig them out and post them tomorrow.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Festival of Mars Invictus
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Craig=20Stevenson?= <gaiussentius@yahoo.com.au>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 18:17:42 +1000 (EST)

Salvete omnes,

In my capacity as Sacerdos of Mars Invictus, I hearby
notify my fellow civies that today, 14th of May, is
the festival of Mars Invictus. Included within the
body of this posting is a transcript of the proceedure
of the rites for the ceremony (my thanks to Lucius
Equitius for sending me this last year).

Sacrificium Martii Invicti, pridie Idus Maias (May 14)
The following sacrifice is to be performed by the
Sodalicium Militarium of Nova Roma on the day of the
festival of Mars Invictus. There should be at least
two officiants (including the sacrificer), but more
than 2 is advisable.
1 Sources
- ILS 5050 (CIL VI 32323) (Comentarii Ludi Saeculares
of 17 BC in Rome)
- Comentarii Fratrum Arvalium qui supersunt
- Cato, De Agricultura, 83 (to Mars Silvanus) and 141
(to Mars Pater).
- Vitruvius, De Architectura, 4.5.1 (on the
orientation of temples).
2 Preparation
A main altar called ara is set up oriented towards
East [Vitruvius, 4.5.1]. If that is not possible, then
the altar should be set up in a way as to be visible
to the audience. Behind the altar (i.e. to the East of
the altar if the altar is oriented to East), a statue
of Mars can be placed higher than the altar in a way
as to face the sacrificers and the audience behind
them, who in turn look at the deity in reverence
during the sacrifice. Fire is lit on top of the altar.
A smaller fireplace or round shape, called foculus is
placed to the right of the ara. This smaller fireplace
is used during the praefacio or introduction.
The sacrifice consists of spelt, bacon fat, some meat
(possibly dry, for part of it will be consumed by the
officiants) and some wine. Each of these offerings is
to be placed in a separate vessel. Two incense pieces
and two separate paterae of wine shall also be
available for the praefatio.
3 The Sacrifice
The officiants place themselves before the altar,
looking towards the deity. If there is an audience, it
will be placed in semi-circle behind the officiants.
The officiants should be wearing the toga praetexta.
One of the officiants orders the people to make
silence with the words "Favete linguis". If flute
players are available, they start to play at the sign
of the sacrificer. During the ritual, the sacrificer
can be helped by another officiant, who reads the
words of the ritual and whispers the words to him.
The sacrificer covers his head with the toga (which is
called "capite velato" or "Gabino Ritu"). The other
officiants can optionally have their heads covered as
well.

3.1 Praefatio
The sacrifice starts with a praefatio, which opens the
sacrifice with offerings of wine and incense at the
foculus . I propose to follow the usual practice of
Cato, which is to offer incence and wine, first to
Ianus and then to Iuppiter. During the praefatio, the
sacrificer is turned in the direction of the foculus
or to the statue of Mars.

1) The sacrificer offers incense to Ianus as follows:

"Iano pater, te hoc ture ommovenda bonas preces
precor, uti sies volens propitius populo romano."
"Father Ianus, in offering this incense to you I pray
good prayers, so that you may be willing to be
propitious to the roman people."

The sacrificer places the incence on the foculus.

2) Then incense is offered to Iuppiter in the same
way:

"Iuppiter, te hoc ture ommovenda bonas preces precor,
uti sies volens propitius populo romano."
"Iuppiter, in offering this incense to you I pray good
prayers, so that you may be willing to be propitious
to the roman people."

The sacrificer places the incence on the foculus.

3) Then a patera of wine is offered to Ianus:

"Iano pater, te hoc vino ommovenda bonas preces
precor, uti sies volens propitius populo romano."
"Father Ianus, in offering this wine to you I pray
good prayers, so that you may be willing to be
propitious to the roman people."

The sacrificer drops the wine on the foculus.

4) Then the same for Iuppiter:

"Iuppiter, te hoc vino ommovenda bonas preces precor,
uti sies volens propitius populo romano."
"Iuppiter, in offering this wine to you I pray good
prayers, so that you may be willing to be propitious
to the roman people."

The sacrificer drops the wine on the foculus.

3.2 Main sacrifice
Then, the main part of the sacrifice starts, which
takes place at the ara instead of the smaller foculus.

1) The sacrificer washes his hands.

2) Turned in the direction of the altar or to the
statue of Mars, he speaks:

"Mars Invicte uti tibi in illeis libris scriptum est
quarumque rerum ergo quodque melius siet populo romano
quiritibus tibi farre et lardo et pulpa et vino sacrum
fiat. Te quaeso precorque uti imperium maiestatemque
populi romani quiritium duelli domique auxis, utique
semper latinum nomen tueare. Incolumitatem sempiternam
victoriam valetudinem populo romano quiritibus tribuas
faveasque populo romano quiritibus legionibusque
populi romani quiritium. Remque publicam populi romani
quiritium salvam serves. Uti sies volens propitius
populo romano quiritibus et Sodalicio Militarium et
uti huius sacrifici acceptor sies, farris, lardi,
pulpa et vini propriarum pollucendarum."

It can be translated more or less as:
"Mars Invictus, as it is written for you in the books,
for sake of these things and in order that any better
may fall on the roman people of the quirites, let a
sacifice be made to you by the spelt, bacon fat, meat
and wine. I beg you and pray to you so that you may
help the empire and majesty of the roman people of the
quirites both in the war and at the homeland, and also
that you may always watch over the latin name. May you
provide to the roman people of the quirites the
eternal safety victory and good health and may you
also favour the roman people of the quirites as well
as its legions. May you preserve the public affairs
("res publica" = Republic) of the roman people of the
quirites unarmed. May you be willing to be propitious
to the roman people of the quirites and to the
Sodalicium Militarium and may you accept this
sacrifice of spelt, bacon fat, meat and wine proper to
be offered."

3) Once the purpose of the sacrifice is stated, the
items are sacrificed. Other officiants should help the
sacrificer by carrying and providing him the vessels
with the offerings, so that he may more easily take
them. The first item is spelt. The sacrificer takes a
fraction of the spelt and offers it to Mars Invictus
as follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte farre esto. Fito volente
propitius populo romano quiritibus et Sodalicio
Militarium."
"For all these things therefore be honoured by this
spelt. Make yourself willing to be propitious to the
roman people of the quirites and the Sodalicium
Militarium."

The sacrificer places the spelt on the fire in order
to be consumed by the flames.

4) The sacifice of bacon fat follows. It is similar to
the above. The sacrificer takes a fraction of bacon
fat and sacrifices as follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte lardo esto. Fito volente
propitius populo romano quiritibus et Sodalicio
Militarium."
"For all these things therefore be honoured by this
bacon fat. Make yourself willing to be propitious to
the roman people of the quirites and the Sodalicium
Militarium."

5) This is the sacifice of the meat. The sacrificer
takes a fraction of meat and sacrifices as follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte pulpa esto. Fito volente
propitius populo romano quiritibus et Sodalicio
Militarium."
"For all these things therefore be honoured by this
meat. Make yourself willing to be propitious to the
roman people of the quirites and the Sodalicium
Militarium."

6) This is the sacifice of the wine. The sacrificer
takes a fraction of the wine (using a cup or 'patera'
if available) and sacrifices as follows:

"Harum rerum ergo macte vino esto. Fito volente
propitius populo romano quiritibus et Sodalicio
Militarium."
"For all these things therefore be honoured by this
wine. Make yourself willing to be propitious to the
roman people of the quirites and the Sodalicium
Militarium."

3.3 Profanatio
The profanation of the offerings follows.

1) The sacrificer symbolically touches the fraction of
the offerings that was not sacrificed to the God, so
that it may be "profanated", i.e. made "profane" or
proper for human use. In this way, those offerings
cease to be "sacred", i.e. divine property.

8) Now the officiants eat the fraction of the meal
that was not offered to the deity, which ends the
sacrifice.

9) Optionally, a part of the meal can be distributed
to the audience if there is enough.

In honor of Mars Invictus, the guiding spirit of the
legions who brought the greatness of Rome! May he look
favourably upon us all!

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Sacerdos Mars Invictus

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- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 589
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 09:09:31 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Violentillae Titiniae Saltatrici salutem dicit.

Salve, Violentilla Titinia.

I thought it might be useful to give you a reference to Eric Gruen's
general summary of the development of the Roman foundation myth. It's
the first chapter, "The Making of the Trojan Legend," in _Culture and
National Identity in Republican Rome_ (Ithaca, 1992), 6-51. I don't
think that Gruen's suggestion that Dionysius of Halicarnassus erred in
ascribing the story of Rhome to Hellanicus of Mytilene (Gruen calls
him Hellanicus of Lesbos -- he was a citizen of Mytilene who wrote in
Lesbos; both name forms are used in the literature) has been generally
accepted by scholars. The argument rests on Gruen's theorising that a
more plausible setting for a Greek historian to report tales of the
founding of Rome is the late fourth century rather than the early
fifth century BCE with Hellicanus; he tries to brush aside the
evidence which most scholars agree is strong confirmation of the Rhome
story having existed in Hellanicus, namely the fact that a known
student of Hellicanus, Damastes of Sigeum, also reports part of the
same story found in Hellanicus, but not the burning of the ships by
Rhome. Most of the academic trench warfare is in the footnotes, so
please don't let that deter you from reading Gruen's by and large
quite good account of how the Trojan legend developed. Gruen is
particularly good in outlining the problems associated with
identifying very fragmentary poetry carved on the Augustan period
Tabula Iliaca Capitolina as the work of Stesichorus, e.g., the fact
that Dionysios of Halicarnassus knew the work of Stesichorus well, but
never mentions Stesichorus in the list of forty-six writers on the
travel's of Aeneas. In short, the situation is lightyears more
complex than the Italian newspaper suggested, and Gruen is good at
breaking down the component parts of the complexity and analysing them
clearly. My personal view is that Eric has written three of the most
important books on Roman republican history in the last twenty-five years.

I hope this is helpful (if you take a look at Gruen's book and have
questions, please feel free to email me to discuss them).

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Questions on Citizenship and the Forum
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 13:46:25 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Mike Elkins & all citizens and
peregrines, greetings.

Though I don't wish to contradict anything my (much)
more learned fellow-citizens have said about the
difficulty of obtaining citizenship in the republic
and early principate, I thought it might be worth
pointing out an element of relativity. Comparing Roman
practice to their own, many contemporary Greeks or
others in the Greek-speaking world felt that the
Romans gave away citizenship remarkably freely. I
recall Polybius taking this view, and there is also an
inscription - from either Macedonia or Syria, I think
- suggesting the same thing. In both cases there was a
suspicion that perhaps this was one of the secrets of
Rome's success. Sorry to be unable to provide more
precise sources - I'll try to look them up.

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 13:58:54 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular L.
Cornelius Sulla, Q. Lanius Paulinus & all citizens and
peregrines, greetings.

Fear not, gentlemen, there shall be electoral reform!

For the moment (as I'm sure they themselves will tell
you soon enough) the Tribunes have decided, after a
little consultation with the Plebs, on a solution for
the time being to make sure we have a Tribune without
another run-off. I shan't steal their thunder further
by telling you what it is, since after all they may
have changed their minds since last I heard.

As for the more important long-term question, the
senior Consul has an electoral reform proposal on his
virtual desk and is, I believe, in the final stages of
consultation about it. I am hopeful that we shall see
it soon.

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus
For a better Internet experience
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] P.S.
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 14:05:37 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I should say in clarification of my last message that
of course a Consul can't introduce electoral reform in
the Plebeian Assembly - the Consul's proposal is for
the Centuriate Assembly, and whether anything like it
is introduced in the Plebeian Assembly will of course
be up to the Tribunes and the Plebeian electorate.

However, the basic problem which is causing multiple
run-offs is endemic to all three main voting
assemblies, so if the Consul's proposal solves the
problem for the Centuriate Assembly there is no reason
why it should not work equally well for the Popular
and Plebeian Tribal Assemblies.

Apologies if I confused anyone by not making this
clear!

Cordus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 14:13:49 -0000

Salve,

Another snippet of information Cordus? I can't wait to see this reform
package for myself. Any idea when they will be published?

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular L.
> Cornelius Sulla, Q. Lanius Paulinus & all citizens and
> peregrines, greetings.
>
> Fear not, gentlemen, there shall be electoral reform!
>
> For the moment (as I'm sure they themselves will tell
> you soon enough) the Tribunes have decided, after a
> little consultation with the Plebs, on a solution for
> the time being to make sure we have a Tribune without
> another run-off. I shan't steal their thunder further
> by telling you what it is, since after all they may
> have changed their minds since last I heard.
>
> As for the more important long-term question, the
> senior Consul has an electoral reform proposal on his
> virtual desk and is, I believe, in the final stages of
> consultation about it. I am hopeful that we shall see
> it soon.
>
> Cordus
>
> =====
>
>
> www.strategikon.org
>
>
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] P.S.
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 07:14:14 -0700

Ave A. Apollonius,

Thank you for the correction, I just responded to your previous post. The issue of Jurisdictional authority is an important one in Nova Roma as it is in every other country. I am glad you posted this correction.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Apollonius Cordus
To: Main List
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:05 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] P.S.

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I should say in clarification of my last message that
of course a Consul can't introduce electoral reform in
the Plebeian Assembly - the Consul's proposal is for
the Centuriate Assembly, and whether anything like it
is introduced in the Plebeian Assembly will of course
be up to the Tribunes and the Plebeian electorate.

However, the basic problem which is causing multiple
run-offs is endemic to all three main voting
assemblies, so if the Consul's proposal solves the
problem for the Centuriate Assembly there is no reason
why it should not work equally well for the Popular
and Plebeian Tribal Assemblies.

Apologies if I confused anyone by not making this
clear!

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT)


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 07:12:58 -0700

Ave A. Apollonius,

I was specfically calling for electorial reform in regards to the Comitia Plebis Tributa. Consul Caeso Fabius is unable to reform that Comitia. It is up to the Tribune of the Plebs to promulgate electorial reform as they have jurisidictional authority over the Comitia Plebis Tributa.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Apollonius Cordus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular L.
Cornelius Sulla, Q. Lanius Paulinus & all citizens and
peregrines, greetings.

Fear not, gentlemen, there shall be electoral reform!

For the moment (as I'm sure they themselves will tell
you soon enough) the Tribunes have decided, after a
little consultation with the Plebs, on a solution for
the time being to make sure we have a Tribune without
another run-off. I shan't steal their thunder further
by telling you what it is, since after all they may
have changed their minds since last I heard.

As for the more important long-term question, the
senior Consul has an electoral reform proposal on his
virtual desk and is, I believe, in the final stages of
consultation about it. I am hopeful that we shall see
it soon.

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"rexmarciusnr" <RexMarcius@aol.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 15:00:55 -0000

Salvete omnes!

It is beyond any doubt now that our election laws, which aim at
filling the Tribune Bench as quickly as possible, produce results
that were neither wanted nor anticipated by those who drafted the
laws.

The Tribunes, therefore, decided to give the election process and the
voting Plebs one more chance and if that failed again (as indeed it
has now) to then invoke the power of interpretation given to the
Tribunes as guardians of the Constitution and to seek a solution with
an analogy to existing laws.

The Lex Grylla in essence states that if a Tribune position cannot be
filled in the December election, the Senate must fill the open
position with either Senators or the previous Tribunes (who would
have to agree to serve another full term) in order to secure a full
bench. The Constitution states that the Senate may fill an open
Tribune position with anyone they deem fit without the need of an
election if less than three months remain of the term of an open
Tribune position.

This is the law as it stands now. Some may think that this is
politically dangerous but this is not our concern as we are not
acting as politicians here.

Creating analogies from these laws to fill unforeseen gaps in other
laws is an act of interpretation and is within the powers of the
Tribunes. There are of course some preconditions for that.

First there must be clear evidence that the law did not anticipate
the situation arising from its application and that an unplanned gap
therefore exists which can be filled by analogy. It is quite obvious
that this gap exists as it was the stated goal of the law to minimise
elections not to perpetuate them.

Second the analogy must be traced back to a common basic principle
evident in different regulations. The basic principle the Tribunes
found in the Constitution and the Lex Grylla is that Tribune
positions must be filled to secure a full bench, that elections in
the Comitia should be tried first but are not necessary until the
very end and that the Senate is the body empowered by the
Constitution to appoint Tribunes if an election is impossible or has
become unnecessary.

>From this a Tribune majority found that after our run-off elections
had become useless and even detrimental to Nova Roma and the Plebs it
was within the guiding principles of our laws to turn to the Senate
for the appointment of a fifth Tribune and to forego any new run-off
elections.

As the Tribunes are elected to protect the citizens and their rights
and to uphold the law as it stands and the will of the Plebs we found
it would be most appropriate to nominate the one individual who would
have a relative majority in the final fruitless run-off.

This is where we stand now in my recollection. I have asked my
colleagues to reaffirm this position so that we can call the Senate
to order in cooperation with the Consuls.

We will let you know our course of action once our decision is final.
This of course does not in any way prejudge the final face of the
election law reform, but this will come later (Do not forget election
laws have to be passed by the currently somewhat handicapped Comitia
Plebis Tributa as well).

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex
Tribune of the Plebs


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Run-off Elections
From:	politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 08:24:29 -0700 (PDT)

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> There are a few laws that might have an impact on
> this. For example, the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
> Magistratus Plebis might have to be implemented or
> at least looked into
>
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-14-i.html)
> and there are a number of other laws that might need
> to be looked into as well.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

I am afraid that I must disagree with Sulla as to
the applicability of the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
Magistratus Plebis in this matter. The beginning
phrase of the law states as follows: "If no candidates
for Tribunis Plebis ... declare in December, the
Senate must provide for those magistrates...." My
understanding is that this law applies only if no
candidates whatsoever for Tribune of the Plebs have
registered by December. I do not think that it can be
applied in the current circumstances because all of
the current candidates did in fact declare at the
regular time.
However in reading the following leges I believe
there may already exist a legal procedure that will
allow for a new election to fill the vacancy within
the Tribunate. It is my understading that the
governing lex is the Lex Labienia de Ratione
Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum (adopted 12 Apr 2754, in
the consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus
Cassius Julianus), as amended by the Lex Salicia de
Suffragis in Comitia Plebis Tributa (adopted 26
November 2755, in the consulship of Marcus Octavius
Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla).

The Lex Labienia de Ratione Comitiorum Plebis
Tributorum states:

V. Procedures for Counting Votes

B. A vote or election shall be decided by a
majority of the tribes.

1. In the case of a magisterial election,
candidates must receive votes from at least 18 of the
35 tribes in order to win.

2. Should not enough candidates receive votes
from at least 18 of the 35 tribes to fill all
vacancies, a new election shall be called within 30
days from the end of the current election.
3. Should more candidates receive votes from at
least 18 of the 35 tribes than there are vacancies,
the winner shall be the candidate who is a
paterfamilias or materfamilias, or if such shall not
decide the issue, the winner shall be decided by lot.
The rogatores may decide how such decisions by lot
shall be made in a fair manner.

In looking through the Tabularium, I see no law
that specifically states how to conduct run-off
elections. Perhaps there is one and it is missing, or
I have overlooked it, if that is the case, I would be
appreciative if someone could point it out to me.
However, bare reading of thge above law says only
that new elections in case not enough candidates
receive at least 18 tribes, that a new election must
be called within 30 days. It does not say that only
those candidates who ran in the previous election can
run in the new election. My understanding is that
there has been a long-standing stalemate for these
three candidates. Perhaps it can best be resolved by
the Tribunes calling a new election, and allowing all
qualified candidates to run. Perhaps a new candidate
that a majority could support would then be found. In
saying this I am not trying to say that any of the
current candidates are unworthy of the position, but
merely trying to present a solution that I think
current law will allow. I do concur with the
statements of those citizens who have expressed the
view that there should be electoral reform, since I
think run-offs that take half the time of a term are
hardly worth the trouble.
The Senate does have the right under the
Constitution to appoint magistrates when there are
vacancies, but only if there are less than three
months remaining in the term. However, I don't think
that we want to wait until October to fill this
vacancy.

Lucius Quintius Constantius of Lacus Magni

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 18:51:27 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Another snippet of information Cordus? I can't wait
> to see this reform package for myself. Any idea when
> they will be published?

If the Consul has determined a date for the
promulgation of this bill, I'm afraid I don't know it.
He's naturally concerned to re-check everything and to
consult his senior advisers before proposing the bill,
to make sure it doesn't need to be withdrawn and
re-issued (which would waste everyone's time). I
believe he's also working on several other important
projects, it's hard to say what sort of waiting time
we can expect.

In the mean time, he has been discussing his proposed
changes with the Tribunes, so the ball is very much in
their court with regard to the reform of Plebeian
Assembly voting procedures.

Sorry not to be more informative.

Cordus

=====

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 589
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 21:14:48 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gregory Rose <gfr@intcon.net>
Date : 14 May 2003 02:05:02
>
>
>Hellanicus of Mytilene, a 5th-century BCE Greek historian, ascribed
>the founding of Rome to Aeneas and claimed that Aeneas named it after
>a particularly comely Trojan woman in his fleet named Rhome. There is
>an allusion to this same story in a fragment of a poem attributed to
>the early 6th-century Stesichorus of Himera.
>
I think this likely to be retrospective explanation. The word Rhowmeh means Strength in Greek and a related Indian word gave its name to the Romany people. It is likely then that the name was Latin and not Etruscan or Trojan in origin and meant something like Stronghold. The story of Aeneas may have been inherited from the Etruscans since it appears they were non-Indo-Europeans from the southern Black Sea or Caucussus.

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 20:19:24 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> In the mean time, he has been discussing his proposed
> changes with the Tribunes, so the ball is very much in
> their court with regard to the reform of Plebeian
> Assembly voting procedures.
>
> Sorry not to be more informative.

Salve.

It would be a nice idea to get the Rogator's input on the matter of
methodology of ballot counting. There are many ways to count ballots
from "first past the post" and the many Concordant variants. The
methodology may work on paper but those that actually would have to
apply the methodology would be the ones to know if it's feasable or
would just result in a lot of frustration and headaches. The more
complicated it becomes the more time needed and the greater the risk
of human error.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Run-off Elections
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 11:43:26 -0700

Avete Omnes,

Now for a more in-depth response.

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> There are a few laws that might have an impact on
> this. For example, the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
> Magistratus Plebis might have to be implemented or
> at least looked into
>
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-14-i.html)
> and there are a number of other laws that might need
> to be looked into as well.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

I am afraid that I must disagree with Sulla as to
the applicability of the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
Magistratus Plebis in this matter.

Sulla: For clarification, I have never stated that the Lex Grylla de Securandius Magistratus Plebis is applicable. Instead I clearly stated that that law and others will need to be looked into in regards to finding a solution in regards to the perpetuating runoff cycle.

The beginning phrase of the law states as follows: "If

no candidates for Tribunis Plebis ... declare in December,

the Senate must provide for those magistrates...." My
understanding is that this law applies only if no
candidates whatsoever for Tribune of the Plebs have
registered by December.

Sulla: That is correct. Your analysis is the same as mine in regards to the applicability of the Lex Grylla in this specific situation.

I do not think that it can be
applied in the current circumstances because all of
the current candidates did in fact declare at the
regular time.

Sulla: That is definitely one way in looking at the situation. And, I might add is the way I also view this situation.

However in reading the following leges I believe
there may already exist a legal procedure that will
allow for a new election to fill the vacancy within
the Tribunate. It is my understading that the
governing lex is the Lex Labienia de Ratione
Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum (adopted 12 Apr 2754, in
the consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus
Cassius Julianus), as amended by the Lex Salicia de
Suffragis in Comitia Plebis Tributa (adopted 26
November 2755, in the consulship of Marcus Octavius
Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla).

<SNIP>

Sulla: Yes I am aware of the Lex Labiena and the changes made by the Lex Salicia. The main advantage to posting it, is that within the 30 days the Tribunes can hold another runoff and at the same time promulgate a new law in regards to the election reform. In other words, at the same time they are holding the next runoff they can at the same time propose election reform for the Plebians to consider.

In looking through the Tabularium, I see no law
that specifically states how to conduct run-off
elections.

Sulla: True. They are handled exactly like regular election and votes.

Perhaps there is one and it is missing, or
I have overlooked it, if that is the case, I would be
appreciative if someone could point it out to me.

Sulla: They are handled like any other election. This is something I hope will be changed in any upcoming election reform or set up a system in place where runoff elections are not necessary. I think we all can agree based on past Nova Roma experience that runoff elections do not ever have the same turnout as the main election.

However, bare reading of thge above law says only
that new elections in case not enough candidates
receive at least 18 tribes, that a new election must
be called within 30 days. It does not say that only
those candidates who ran in the previous election can
run in the new election.

Sulla: True, it does not state that only those candidates who ran in the previous election can run in the new election.

My understanding is that
there has been a long-standing stalemate for these
three candidates. Perhaps it can best be resolved by
the Tribunes calling a new election, and allowing all
qualified candidates to run.

Sulla: The problem is that all three candidates doe qualify. Per the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. There are no other requirements (that I am aware of) that would restrict them from running (since they all are Plebs as well.)

Perhaps a new candidate
that a majority could support would then be found.

Sulla: What do you mean a new candidate that a majority would support, do you mean opening up a call for candidates, that would create even more of a situation because it is highly unlikely the three other candidates would step down.

In saying this I am not trying to say that any of the
current candidates are unworthy of the position, but
merely trying to present a solution that I think
current law will allow.

Sulla: In this situation, It would be better to simply drop off the lowest vote getter in the previous runoff and remove the write in candidate section. That would be a better solution IMHO.

I do concur with the
statements of those citizens who have expressed the
view that there should be electoral reform, since I
think run-offs that take half the time of a term are
hardly worth the trouble.

Sulla: I think we all agree with that. J

The Senate does have the right under the
Constitution to appoint magistrates when there are
vacancies, but only if there are less than three
months remaining in the term. However, I don't think
that we want to wait until October to fill this
vacancy.

Sulla: Yes I agree entirely.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Lucius Quintius Constantius of Lacus Magni


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Diana Moravia Aventina <diana_aventina@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 13:21:08 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Senator,

<drop off the lowest candidate and remove the
write-in > portions as options during run-off
elections?

<Marianus Adrianus Sarus (Write-In): 1 Tribe

I agree. Especially the write- in. We are not
accepting new candidates and so that write-in
slot needs to be scrapped. And to be blunt: I
have never noticed him posting to the ML and so
how would any citizens know that he wanted to be
Tribune? My conclusion is that he voted for
himself and got 3 of his friends to do so too. A
waste of time for us and the Rogatores.

Vale,
Diana Moravia
Tribunus Plebis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: nova roma citizenship
From:	"iris serva" <iris_serva@hotmail.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 18:25:21 +0000

Salve !
Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como praenomen
ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no quedaría mal
Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es mi
lengua materna.
Gratias ago
Vale
Iris

>From: "L. Didius Geminus Sceptius" <sceptia@yahoo.es>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: nova roma citizenship
>Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:47:39 -0000
>
>Salve Iris!
>
>[ESPAÑOL]
>Soy L. Didius Geminus Sceptius, de Mantua Carpetanorum (Madrid). Si lo
>deseas, además de solicitar la ciudadanía como Paulinus te ha
>descrito, puedes unirte al foro en español de NRHispania:
>nrhispania-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Allí te podremos ayudar (Y a cualquier otro hispano :-D) a conocer a
>qué nos dedicamos, y podrás comprobar que hay unos cuantos ciudadanos
>de por aquellas tierras... :)
>
>[ENGLISH]
>I'm L. Didius Geminus Sceptius, from Mantua Carpetanorum (Madrid). If
>you wish appart from apply for the citizenship as Paulinus described
>you can join the spanish fora of NRHispania:
>nrhispania-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>There we'll help you -and any other hispanian to know what do we look
>for and find some other citizens from that land... :)
>
>vale bene,
>sceptius
>
>
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "iris_serva" <iris_serva@h...>
>wrote:
> > salve!
> > I would like to become a citizen of nova roma but I don't know
> > exactly what to do. Please, if you are a member of nova roma, I'm
> > looking for your help.
> > I'm a 18 years old girl from barcelona and I'm very interested in
> > everyday's life in pompei. I can speak french, spanish and I
> > understand italian or swedish. My english, as you see, is not good
> > enough but I can communicate.
> > gratias ago
> > vale
> > Iris
>

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Diana Moravia Aventina <diana_aventina@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 13:57:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salve A Apollonius Cordus,

> He's naturally concerned to re-check everything
> and to > consult his senior advisers before
proposing > the bill, > to make sure it doesn't
need to be withdrawn > and > re-issued (which
would waste everyone's time).

What is taking so long when there are 25 advisors
and assistants in his Cohors Consulis to help him
with this proposal?

<I believe he's also working on several other
important projects, it's hard to say what sort of
waiting time we can expect.

Care to give us a hint on what these are? I think
the reasoning behind the large cohors was that a
lot would get done this year. So far, I see 25 +
people with titles and nothing coming out of the
Cohors Consulis and more than one third of the
term is done. Or have I missed something?

> In the mean time, he has been discussing his
> proposed
> changes with the Tribunes, (snipped)

Has he? While I do appreciate you a great deal,
you really shouldn't announce what other people
are discussing. Because in this case, you are
wrong. As of now, I have not discussed anything
with the Senior Consul and I am sure that my
clleagues would have let me know if they were.
About 6 weeks ago I received an email from the
Senior Consul which said that something was in
the works and that he would send it to me soon.
So far I have not recieved anything. And about 6
weeks before that, you told me not to propose new
electoral legislation because the Senior Consul
would propose something soon. And during this 3
months of waiting, we've have 3 failed run-offs
under our belts.

The Tribunes are now discussing (with input from
the Commitia Plebis Tributa) what we need to do--
and do quickly -- in order to take care of our
open Tribune spot once and for all.

vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 14:39:43 -0700

Avete Diana Moravia!
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

Salve A Apollonius Cordus,

> He's naturally concerned to re-check everything
> and to > consult his senior advisers before
proposing > the bill, > to make sure it doesn't
need to be withdrawn > and > re-issued (which
would waste everyone's time).

What is taking so long when there are 25 advisors
and assistants in his Cohors Consulis to help him
with this proposal?

Sulla: Wow Diana, you better watch it. Soon they will start calling you Sulla Iunor. <eg> Seriously though, I do agree with your thoughts. My own personal feeling is that our Senior Consul is realizing that too much input is really bad. Too much bureaucracy is just as bad of a hinderance as no bureaucracy.

<I believe he's also working on several other
important projects, it's hard to say what sort of
waiting time we can expect.

Care to give us a hint on what these are?

Sulla: Yeah A. Apollonius, stop teasing us. :)

I think
the reasoning behind the large cohors was that a
lot would get done this year. So far, I see 25 +
people with titles and nothing coming out of the
Cohors Consulis and more than one third of the
term is done. Or have I missed something?

Sulla: Nope you are not missing anything, remember Diana, most of Caeso's staff are also holding other offices...like our Aediles who to date have tried to establish a secret police force and have been involved in religious controversays with the way they conduct the games that have Religious signficance.

> In the mean time, he has been discussing his
> proposed
> changes with the Tribunes, (snipped)

Has he? While I do appreciate you a great deal,
you really shouldn't announce what other people
are discussing. Because in this case, you are
wrong.

Sulla: Really, just who has our Senior Consul been in discussion with? I am really curious now.

As of now, I have not discussed anything
with the Senior Consul and I am sure that my
clleagues would have let me know if they were.
About 6 weeks ago I received an email from the
Senior Consul which said that something was in
the works and that he would send it to me soon.
So far I have not recieved anything. And about 6
weeks before that, you told me not to propose new
electoral legislation because the Senior Consul
would propose something soon.

Sulla: Why would the Senior Consul tell you not to propose anything. He is a Patrician and beyond that he has no jurisidictional authority to any law you might promulgate in the Comitia Plebis Tributa, and espeically given the election Fiasco you and your colleagues should have been actively working in trying to remedy it. I am looking forward to seeing how the Tribune of the Plebs fix the Comitia Plebis and hope that if it is a good fix it would be carried over into the Comitia Populi Tributa as well.

And during this 3
months of waiting, we've have 3 failed run-offs
under our belts.

The Tribunes are now discussing (with input from
the Commitia Plebis Tributa) what we need to do--
and do quickly -- in order to take care of our
open Tribune spot once and for all.

Sulla: Good luck. Remember the laws is is always available to you if you would like to any matter there.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Fw: [Nova-Roma] Run-off Elections
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 13:31:21 -0700

Forward, the last message never posted.

Respectfully,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Run-off Elections

Avete Omnes,

Now for a more in-depth response.

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Ave!
>
> There are a few laws that might have an impact on
> this. For example, the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
> Magistratus Plebis might have to be implemented or
> at least looked into
>
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-14-i.html)
> and there are a number of other laws that might need
> to be looked into as well.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

I am afraid that I must disagree with Sulla as to
the applicability of the Lex Gryllia de Securandis
Magistratus Plebis in this matter.

Sulla: For clarification, I have never stated that the Lex Grylla de Securandius Magistratus Plebis is applicable. Instead I clearly stated that that law and others will need to be looked into in regards to finding a solution in regards to the perpetuating runoff cycle.

The beginning phrase of the law states as follows: "If

no candidates for Tribunis Plebis ... declare in December,

the Senate must provide for those magistrates...." My
understanding is that this law applies only if no
candidates whatsoever for Tribune of the Plebs have
registered by December.

Sulla: That is correct. Your analysis is the same as mine in regards to the applicability of the Lex Grylla in this specific situation.

I do not think that it can be
applied in the current circumstances because all of
the current candidates did in fact declare at the
regular time.

Sulla: That is definitely one way in looking at the situation. And, I might add is the way I also view this situation.

However in reading the following leges I believe
there may already exist a legal procedure that will
allow for a new election to fill the vacancy within
the Tribunate. It is my understading that the
governing lex is the Lex Labienia de Ratione
Comitiorum Plebis Tributorum (adopted 12 Apr 2754, in
the consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus
Cassius Julianus), as amended by the Lex Salicia de
Suffragis in Comitia Plebis Tributa (adopted 26
November 2755, in the consulship of Marcus Octavius
Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla).

<SNIP>

Sulla: Yes I am aware of the Lex Labiena and the changes made by the Lex Salicia. The main advantage to posting it, is that within the 30 days the Tribunes can hold another runoff and at the same time promulgate a new law in regards to the election reform. In other words, at the same time they are holding the next runoff they can at the same time propose election reform for the Plebians to consider.

In looking through the Tabularium, I see no law
that specifically states how to conduct run-off
elections.

Sulla: True. They are handled exactly like regular election and votes.

Perhaps there is one and it is missing, or
I have overlooked it, if that is the case, I would be
appreciative if someone could point it out to me.

Sulla: They are handled like any other election. This is something I hope will be changed in any upcoming election reform or set up a system in place where runoff elections are not necessary. I think we all can agree based on past Nova Roma experience that runoff elections do not ever have the same turnout as the main election.

However, bare reading of thge above law says only
that new elections in case not enough candidates
receive at least 18 tribes, that a new election must
be called within 30 days. It does not say that only
those candidates who ran in the previous election can
run in the new election.

Sulla: True, it does not state that only those candidates who ran in the previous election can run in the new election.

My understanding is that
there has been a long-standing stalemate for these
three candidates. Perhaps it can best be resolved by
the Tribunes calling a new election, and allowing all
qualified candidates to run.

Sulla: The problem is that all three candidates doe qualify. Per the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti Censi. There are no other requirements (that I am aware of) that would restrict them from running (since they all are Plebs as well.)

Perhaps a new candidate
that a majority could support would then be found.

Sulla: What do you mean a new candidate that a majority would support, do you mean opening up a call for candidates, that would create even more of a situation because it is highly unlikely the three other candidates would step down.

In saying this I am not trying to say that any of the
current candidates are unworthy of the position, but
merely trying to present a solution that I think
current law will allow.

Sulla: In this situation, It would be better to simply drop off the lowest vote getter in the previous runoff and remove the write in candidate section. That would be a better solution IMHO.

I do concur with the
statements of those citizens who have expressed the
view that there should be electoral reform, since I
think run-offs that take half the time of a term are
hardly worth the trouble.

Sulla: I think we all agree with that. J

The Senate does have the right under the
Constitution to appoint magistrates when there are
vacancies, but only if there are less than three
months remaining in the term. However, I don't think
that we want to wait until October to fill this
vacancy.

Sulla: Yes I agree entirely.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Lucius Quintius Constantius of Lacus Magni


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Going to NYC
From:	Diana Moravia Aventina <diana_aventina@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

I'll be travelling to NYC tomorrow and so won't
be available. I'll be back online as soon as I
figure out my parent's webTv..
Valete,
Diana Moravia

__________________________________
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 14:16:11 -0700

Ave Tribune.

He could have voted himself...and have been the only member of his tribe to vote..thus awarding himself that entire Tribe.

PS. I am glad that you agree with my suggestions.

Respectfully,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Moravia Aventina
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

Salve Senator,

<drop off the lowest candidate and remove the
write-in > portions as options during run-off
elections?

<Marianus Adrianus Sarus (Write-In): 1 Tribe

I agree. Especially the write- in. We are not
accepting new candidates and so that write-in
slot needs to be scrapped. And to be blunt: I
have never noticed him posting to the ML and so
how would any citizens know that he wanted to be
Tribune? My conclusion is that he voted for
himself and got 3 of his friends to do so too. A
waste of time for us and the Rogatores.

Vale,
Diana Moravia
Tribunus Plebis

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 19:36:51 -0400

Salve, Diana Moravia Aventina -

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 01:57:51PM -0700, Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Salve A Apollonius Cordus,
>
> > He's naturally concerned to re-check everything
> > and to > consult his senior advisers before
> proposing > the bill, > to make sure it doesn't
> need to be withdrawn > and > re-issued (which
> would waste everyone's time).
>
> What is taking so long when there are 25 advisors
> and assistants in his Cohors Consulis to help him
> with this proposal?

Diana, from reading the rest of your post, I'm getting the sense that
you're frustrated with the slow progress of this proposal; OK, fair
enough and understandable, especially since this series of runoffs has
led nowhere. However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable. I'm not
certain why you do. Just as an example, the complexity of the task
itself and the amount of opposition the Consul runs into are also
determining factors; there are others as well. Perhaps asking the Consul
himself about his reasons for a larger Cohors would be a more effective
tack if this is what you really want to know.

> <I believe he's also working on several other
> important projects, it's hard to say what sort of
> waiting time we can expect.
>
> Care to give us a hint on what these are?

Isn't this in direct opposition to what you say just below, with regard
to announcing what other people are discussing? Cordus, it seems to me,
is trying to walk the fine line between keeping people updated on what's
happening and spilling information that's best kept to a small group
until it's ready to be announced (if, indeed, he even has it.) If he's
made a mis-step, letting him know about it - as you did below - is
reasonable, but *asking* him to violate it as you upbraid him for it is
unreasonable.

> I think
> the reasoning behind the large cohors was that a
> lot would get done this year. So far, I see 25 +
> people with titles and nothing coming out of the
> Cohors Consulis and more than one third of the
> term is done. Or have I missed something?

Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such concern
about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done quite a
lot of work - I find it ungracious of you to imply otherwise,
particularly when you don't really know about it - but that work is
advisory to the Consul, and he decides what of it will reach you or
anyone else. Why not broach your concerns to him, instead of attacking
someone on whom that responsibility does not lie?

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla.
The way is made long through rules, but short and effective through examples.
-- Seneca Philosophus, "Epistulae"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 19:43:14 -0400

Salve, L. Cornelius Sulla -

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 02:39:43PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> Sulla: Wow Diana, you better watch it. Soon they will start
> calling you Sulla Iunor. <eg>

I think not, Sulla; you are - shall we say - unique.

May Fortuna continue to smile upon Nova Roma.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Don't you know then, my son, how little wisdom rules the world?
-- Said by the Swedish chancellor Axel Oxenstierna to encourage his son Johan when
he doubted his ability to represent Sweden at the Westphalian peace conference.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 16:48:27 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

Salve, L. Cornelius Sulla -

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 02:39:43PM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> Sulla: Wow Diana, you better watch it. Soon they will start
> calling you Sulla Iunor. <eg>

I think not, Sulla; you are - shall we say - unique.

Sulla: Excellent, its good to be unique.

Vale,

Sulla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]