Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 20:13:04 -0400

Citizens of Nova Roma:

I have endured 5 run-off elections, and it is now the middle of May. There is no question that the system we currently have in place is flawed. I trust that the Tribunes will do their best to fix the problem, and I would encourage them to come up with a solution instead of waiting for someone else to propose one.

I wish to serve our Republic in honor, and would consider it a great dignity to serve as a tribune in the future. However, I feel that it is in the best interests of the Republic for me to humbly step down as a candidate, and allow Gaius Popillius Laenas be elected. I would encourage all those that supported me to vote in the next run-off election, and to vote for Laenas. Five tribunes are better than 4, and our Republic is suffering.

I will run for tribune again in the fall under the same platform I did last year:

I. To cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best interests of Nova Roma.
II. To encourage the active participation of all citizens within Nova Roma.
III. To facilitate communication between the Senate and the People.
IV. To advocate for an increased local presence of Nova Roma within Macronations.

Vale;

Gaius Modius Athanasius


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 00:54:50 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> Citizens of Nova Roma:
>
> I have endured 5 run-off elections, and it is now the middle of
May. There is no question that the system we currently have in place
is flawed. I trust that the Tribunes will do their best to fix the
problem, and I would encourage them to come up with a solution
instead of waiting for someone else to propose one...

Salvete omnes,

Aye, No! Ladies and gentlemen, now we see what happens when flaws in
the system are not erradicated.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] RE: Citizenship Question
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 01:23:32 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "iris serva" <iris_serva@h...>
wrote:
> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como
praenomen
> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no
quedaría mal
> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es
mi
> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
>
> Salvete omnes et Drusilla,

Translated

Salve,

Thank you for your help. My problem now is to choose the gens. I have
chosen the name Drusilla Didia Gemina ( Iris is my pseudoname) though
I believe it may yet change. I doubt I'll enter the Spanish or French
list since they are my mother tongue.

Thank you,

Vale - Iris

Hi Drusilla. I must say the name you chose so far is really pretty
and Roman. I think you choose the NR English in order to practice
your English. We are very glad to have you here and please ask us any
questions you want. There are always smart people to help you here.
If you have any problems contacting the gens fathers or mothers,
please let us know. There are many of them here who would be happy to
have you.

En espanol - Hola Drusilla,

Tengo que decir que el nombre que tenga es muy bonita y muy romano.
Pienso que quiere estar en esta lista para practicar su ingles.
Verdad? De todos modos estamos muy feliz tenerle aqui y por favor no
tenga preocupaciones de hacer todas las preguntas que quiere. Siempre
hay muchas personas aqui, muy inteligentes et van a ayudarle. Si
tienes varios problemas, ellos estan muy feliz ayudarle;especialmente
si vd tiene problemas de contactar los madres et padres familares.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus et todos los romanos nuevos


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: nova roma citizenship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 01:25:00 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "iris serva" <iris_serva@h...>
wrote:
> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como
praenomen
> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no
quedaría mal
> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es
mi
> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "iris serva" <iris_serva@h...>
wrote:
> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como
praenomen
> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no
quedaría mal
> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es
mi
> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
>
> Salvete omnes et Drusilla,

Translated

Salve,

Thank you for your help. My problem now is to choose the gens. I have
chosen the name Drusilla Didia Gemina ( Iris is my pseudoname) though
I believe it may yet change. I doubt I'll enter the Spanish or French
list since they are my mother tongue.

Thank you,

Vale - Iris

Hi Drusilla. I must say the name you chose so far is really pretty
and Roman. I think you choose the NR English in order to practice
your English. We are very glad to have you here and please ask us any
questions you want. There are always smart people to help you here.
If you have any problems contacting the gens fathers or mothers,
please let us know. There are many of them here who would be happy to
have you.

En espanol - Hola Drusilla,

Tengo que decir que el nombre que tenga es muy bonita y muy romano.
Pienso que quiere estar en esta lista para practicar su ingles.
Verdad? De todos modos estamos muy feliz tenerle aqui y por favor no
tenga preocupaciones de hacer todas las preguntas que quiere. Siempre
hay muchas personas aqui, muy inteligentes et van a ayudarle. Si
tienes varios problemas, ellos estan muy feliz ayudarle;especialmente
si vd tiene problemas de contactar los madres et padres familares.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus et todos los romanos nuevos


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 01:12:06 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:

Salve A. Apolloni Corde,

> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular L.
> Cornelius Sulla, Q. Lanius Paulinus & all citizens and
> peregrines, greetings.
>
> Fear not, gentlemen, there shall be electoral reform!
>
> For the moment (as I'm sure they themselves will tell
> you soon enough) the Tribunes have decided, after a
> little consultation with the Plebs, on a solution for
> the time being to make sure we have a Tribune without
> another run-off. I shan't steal their thunder further
> by telling you what it is, since after all they may
> have changed their minds since last I heard.
>
> As for the more important long-term question, the
> senior Consul has an electoral reform proposal on his
> virtual desk and is, I believe, in the final stages of
> consultation about it. I am hopeful that we shall see
> it soon.

Yes, the consul is working on laws to alter the electoral process but
anything he proposes would not have the slightest effect on the
election of Tribunes. Alterations to that process can only be done by
the Tribunes themselves in the Comitia Plebis. Please do not try to
make a connection that does not exist.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: nova roma citizenship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 01:20:34 -0000


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 589
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 01:39:22 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Caesariensi salutem dicit

Salve, Caesariensis.

> I think this likely to be retrospective explanation. The word
Rhowmeh means Strength in >Greek and a related Indian word gave its
name to the Romany people. It is likely then that >the name was Latin
and not Etruscan or Trojan in origin and meant something like
>Stronghold. The story of Aeneas may have been inherited from the
Etruscans since it >appears they were non-Indo-Europeans from the
southern Black Sea or Caucussus.

I think that the development of Roman foundation legends was very much
a political matter and that none of them reflect what could be called
a historical account. Archaeological investigation of Rome itself
casts doubt by more than a century on the date of the city's first
settlement.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: nova roma citizenship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 23:48:49 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "iris serva" <iris_serva@h...>
wrote:
> Salve !
> Gracias por tu ayuda. Mi problema ahora es escoger la gens. Como
praenomen
> ya he escogido Drusilla (Iris es mi pseudónimo!) y creo que no
quedaría mal
> Drusilla Didia Gemina!. Dudo entre hispania o la galia, pues esa es
mi
> lengua materna.
> Gratias ago
> Vale
> Iris
>
>
>Salve Drusilla,

Vd. tiene un mombre muy bonita ahora y su nombre es muy Romana. En
hispania y galia muchas personas hablan ingles tambien. No estoy
claro en este momento si quiere o no quiere ser un miembro de los dos
grupos, hispania o galia. Sin embargo si quiere practicar su ingles
estariamos muy feliz ayudarle aqui en esta lista. NR ingles es
siempre muy activo y interesante. Toma su tiempo escoger su familia.
Si tiene promlemas, por favor escribanos, especialmente si las
familias no responden a su cartas.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus et todos Romanos Neuvos

In English,

Salve,

Thany you for your help. My problem now is choosing a gens. My
Praenomen I have already chosen as Drusilla (Iris is my pseudo name)
though I believe that the name Drusilla Didia Gemina may not be left
as it is. I have doubts about entering the Spanish or French list
because those are my mother tongues.

Thank you

Bye

Iris

Salve Drusilla,

You sure have chosen a pretty name and it sounds really Roman. In the
Spanish and French list, many speak English also. I'm not that clear
whether you wanted or did not want to join those 2 groups. However,
if you wish to be here to practice your English we would be very
happy to help you in this list. This English NR list is always very
active and interesting. Please take your time in choosing a family.
If you have any problems, please write to us, especially if the
families do not respond to your letters.

Vale bene,

Quintus Lanias Paulinus and all Nova Romans


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Questions on Citizenship and the Forum
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 01:25:03 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus A. Apollonio Cordo salutem dicit.

Salve, A. Apolloni.

> Though I don't wish to contradict anything my (much)
> more learned fellow-citizens have said about the
> difficulty of obtaining citizenship in the republic
> and early principate, I thought it might be worth
> pointing out an element of relativity. Comparing Roman
> practice to their own, many contemporary Greeks or
> others in the Greek-speaking world felt that the
> Romans gave away citizenship remarkably freely. I
> recall Polybius taking this view, and there is also an
> inscription - from either Macedonia or Syria, I think
> - suggesting the same thing. In both cases there was a
> suspicion that perhaps this was one of the secrets of
> Rome's success. Sorry to be unable to provide more
> precise sources - I'll try to look them up.

I agree with you about the comparison to citizenship in the Greek
poleis, but the process of extending citizenship to the free
population of the empire was a gradual process that stalled in the
early principate. On the whole Augustus was somewhat less liberal
than C. Iulius Caesar in extending citizenship to the provinces and
Tiberius considerably more parsimonious still (the drop in epigraphic
evidence of citizenship grants under Tiberius is very large in
comparison to total epigraphic finds from Tiberius reign). There is
very little evidence in this respect for Gaius, but the first serious
moves toward broadening citizenship began under Claudius. Claudius
extended Latin rights to provincial towns recognized as municipia and,
equally important, instituted the policy of attributio of incolae
(tribal peoples outside the municipium) to the nearest municipium.
The grant of citizenship for auxiliary service was standardised under
Claudius and the vast majority of decuriones in the east were granted
full citizenship. For the first time tribal nobles from among the
Aedui were adlected to the Senate. Nero granted Latin rights to the
free population of the Alpes Maritimae and full citizenship to the
families of decuriones in the east. The Flavian period was marked by
an extraordinary generosity in extending citizenship. Vespasian
granted Latin rights to all of Hispania (except part of Asturia) in 74
CE and citizenship to all free men serving in the naval forces
(classiarii). Vespasian granted colonial status, entailing full
citizenship for all free residents, to a huge number of municipia and
Titus in his brief reign enacted leges de civitate et conubio granting
full citizenship to the acknowledged illegitimate sons of Roman
legionnaries. Domitian, Nerva, and Trajan continued these policies.
By the end of Trajan's reign full citizenship had been granted to all
the free population of major urban centers in the empire. Hadrian
expanded this by granting municipal status (with Latin rights) to
settlements around legionary camps on the borders and establishing
several new cities to which he attracted population by granting full
citizenship to any settlers. The emergence of the
honestiores/humiliores distinction in Roman Law (in a letter from the
emperor to one of your ancient namesakes, an Apollonius, Digesta,
xlviii.5.39.8) in the reign of Antoninus Pius surely testifies to the
considerable degree to which citizenship had been expanded, as does
Marcus Aurelius' imposition of the requirement that the birth of a
child to a citizen be registered within thirty days for the child to
be a citizen, a measure designed to protect against fraudulent
citizenship claims. The bulk of the free population of entire had
acquired full citizenship several decades before the Antonine
Constitution of 212 CE., but getting there took two hundred years from
the founding of the principate.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Taxation - Please Check Your Status
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 19:47:34 -0500

T Labienus Fortunatus Quiritibus SPD

It's been roughly a week since I last received notification of a tax
payment. Therefore, it seems that those who are going to pay have
mostly paid.

At this time, I'd like to encourage every civis who sent in a payment to
take a little time to check his or her status in the Album Civium on the
Web site. If you've paid and you aren't listed as an assiduus, please
contact me privately at labienus@texas.net and I'll work with you to fix
the problem.

(For those who use Yahoo through the Web, my address is "labienus at
texas dot net".)

Valete


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 23:49:36 -0400

Salve Gaius Modius Athanasius

You are an honorable man that is why I supported you in all of these ( last
years too) elections. This is the best solution to the immediate problem of
electing our 5th Tribune. I hope Tribunes will propose a solution so this
type of thing never happens again.

Lest me be the first to say

"Gaius Modius Athanasius for Tribune 2756"

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen

----- Original Message -----
From: <AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:13 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy

> Citizens of Nova Roma:
>
> I have endured 5 run-off elections, and it is now the middle of May.
There is no question that the system we currently have in place is flawed.
I trust that the Tribunes will do their best to fix the problem, and I would
encourage them to come up with a solution instead of waiting for someone
else to propose one.
>
> I wish to serve our Republic in honor, and would consider it a great
dignity to serve as a tribune in the future. However, I feel that it is in
the best interests of the Republic for me to humbly step down as a
candidate, and allow Gaius Popillius Laenas be elected. I would encourage
all those that supported me to vote in the next run-off election, and to
vote for Laenas. Five tribunes are better than 4, and our Republic is
suffering.
>
> I will run for tribune again in the fall under the same platform I did
last year:
>
> I. To cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best interests of
Nova Roma.
> II. To encourage the active participation of all citizens within Nova
Roma.
> III. To facilitate communication between the Senate and the People.
> IV. To advocate for an increased local presence of Nova Roma within
Macronations.
>
> Vale;
>
> Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 03:53:16 -0000

Salve Gai Modi Athanasi,

I second that. My sentiments exactly!

Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Gaius Modius Athanasius
>
> You are an honorable man that is why I supported you in all of
these ( last
> years too) elections. This is the best solution to the immediate
problem of
> electing our 5th Tribune. I hope Tribunes will propose a solution
so this
> type of thing never happens again.
>
> Lest me be the first to say
>
> "Gaius Modius Athanasius for Tribune 2756"
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Citizen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AthanasiosofSpfd@a...>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <ComitiaPlebisTributa@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:13 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
>
>
> > Citizens of Nova Roma:
> >
> > I have endured 5 run-off elections, and it is now the middle of
May.
> There is no question that the system we currently have in place is
flawed.
> I trust that the Tribunes will do their best to fix the problem,
and I would
> encourage them to come up with a solution instead of waiting for
someone
> else to propose one.
> >
> > I wish to serve our Republic in honor, and would consider it a
great
> dignity to serve as a tribune in the future. However, I feel that
it is in
> the best interests of the Republic for me to humbly step down as a
> candidate, and allow Gaius Popillius Laenas be elected. I would
encourage
> all those that supported me to vote in the next run-off election,
and to
> vote for Laenas. Five tribunes are better than 4, and our Republic
is
> suffering.
> >
> > I will run for tribune again in the fall under the same platform
I did
> last year:
> >
> > I. To cooperate with other magistrates to promote the best
interests of
> Nova Roma.
> > II. To encourage the active participation of all citizens within
Nova
> Roma.
> > III. To facilitate communication between the Senate and the
People.
> > IV. To advocate for an increased local presence of Nova Roma
within
> Macronations.
> >
> > Vale;
> >
> > Gaius Modius Athanasius
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Coins Again
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 04:30:10 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

As I promised, here is another numismatic link, the "Roman Numismatic
Gallery":

http://www.numismatics.org/publications/romangeneral/

This site has some of the most detailed and beautiful Roman numismatic
photography on the net with sections on imperial portraiture,
countermarks, legionary stamps, military diplomas, military equipment,
officials, provinces, buildings, animals, gods and mintmarks on Roman
coins.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	Centurion M Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 14 May 2003 23:07:27 -0700 (PDT)

I find it unfortunate that it had to come to this. I look forward to voting for you again in the fall.

1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to govern them......Nova Roma

Marcus Bianchius Antonius
Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 02:31:13 EDT

In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@callahans.org writes:

> However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
Salvete
Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
so.
In case you haven't noticed Municius, this is a rather vocal lot here in Nova
Roma
and after all the promises we kinda expected action.

Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
1. The Eagle and it's over funding.
2. The continuous run-offs to elect Tribunes of the plebs.
( I have to say I admire the Rogators and their hard work so far. During my
consulship I couldn't keep Rogators in office.)
3. No Census yet, even though it is a Lex.
4. The fiasco with the Aediles leges and their statement against the Iraq
war.
5. Election reform. I worked on a proposal in early Feb. It takes 3 months
to work the bugs out?
6. The Senior Consul's constant absences. If he can't do the job, why did he
get stand?

You did collect taxes. And that was well done. But for the others, the
Tribune has every right to question you and your zeal as the peoples'
representative, and protector of the constitution.
There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 02:33:09 EDT

In a message dated 5/14/03 11:07:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
imperialreign@yahoo.com writes:

> 1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to govern them......Nova
> Roma
>
400? I believe you are very optimistic there. And law joke was in poor
taste.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 06:23:51 -0400

Many thanks to you, and to everyone, for their kind workds.

G. Modius Athanasius

In a message dated 5/14/2003 10:49:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, spqr753@msn.com writes:

> "Gaius Modius Athanasius for Tribune 2756"
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> Citizen


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:28:57 +0100 (BST)

Salve Caius Minucius,

> From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis
> has done quite a
> lot of work - I find it ungracious of you to imply
> otherwise, <snipped>

I think you'll find that criticism of ones actions, or
in this case, inaction, is in the very nature of
politics. And I'm sure that our fair Tribune expected
some heat in return for her post. Gracious of you to
oblige Caius Minucius.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus
For a better Internet experience
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:30:27 +0100 (BST)

Salve,

A noble action Caius Modius. You are indeed a true
Roman.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus
For a better Internet experience
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:13:23 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:

> Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such concern
> about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done quite
a
> lot of work

Ok, then "Where's the beef?" "Maybe its under the pickle."

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 06:53:06 -0700

Ave Senator Q. Fabius,

You forgot to mention the Aediles attempt to implement edicts that would establish a Secret Police force in Nova Roma on your list.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@callahans.org writes:

> However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
Salvete
Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
so.
In case you haven't noticed Municius, this is a rather vocal lot here in Nova
Roma
and after all the promises we kinda expected action.

Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
1. The Eagle and it's over funding.
2. The continuous run-offs to elect Tribunes of the plebs.
( I have to say I admire the Rogators and their hard work so far. During my
consulship I couldn't keep Rogators in office.)
3. No Census yet, even though it is a Lex.
4. The fiasco with the Aediles leges and their statement against the Iraq
war.
5. Election reform. I worked on a proposal in early Feb. It takes 3 months
to work the bugs out?
6. The Senior Consul's constant absences. If he can't do the job, why did he
get stand?

You did collect taxes. And that was well done. But for the others, the
Tribune has every right to question you and your zeal as the peoples'
representative, and protector of the constitution.
There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:25:44 -0400

Salve -

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@callahans.org writes:
>
>
> > However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> > the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> > of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> > should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> > debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
>
> Salvete
> Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> so.

Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?

You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.

> In case you haven't noticed Municius, this is a rather vocal lot here in Nova
> Roma
> and after all the promises we kinda expected action.

Has the Cohors Consulis made any promises to you? I'd be interested in
knowing what they are.

> Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:

[ snip ]

None of the issues you've brought up have anything to do with the Cohors
as a group. Does phrase "advisory capacity" mean anything to you, or will
you require an explanation?

> You did collect taxes. And that was well done.

Not me. But I'm certain that the Consul and the Rogatores will be happy
to hear your praise.

> But for the others, the
> Tribune has every right to question you and your zeal as the peoples'
> representative, and protector of the constitution.

It was not a question. Questions, in case you've lost track, contain an
inquiry that regards the matter at hand. Diana had made several
*statements* (just as a reminder, those contain an assertion) about the
Cohors Consulis. If you want to question the Cohors regarding its work
_and_ believe you have the right to that information, feel free to send
an e-mail to the Consul - he'll be the one to make that decision anyway.

> There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.

I neither was nor acted "outraged". I made a comment about how
inappropriate I'd found the statements.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Aquila non captat muscas.
The eagle doesn't capture flies.
-- N/A


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 08:31:55 -0700

> There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.

I neither was nor acted "outraged". I made a comment about how
inappropriate I'd found the statements.

Sulla: Of course you found her comments inappropriate, you are in the Cohort!

Vale,

Sulla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 08:37:23 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

Salve -

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@callahans.org writes:
>
>
> > However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> > the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> > of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> > should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> > debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
>
> Salvete
> Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> so.

Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?

You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Sulla: Actually, I think either you must have ignored a number of my posts or your attention span is extremely short. Because I do remember criticizing the Senior Consul's edicts when he appointed his Nova Byzantium Cohort staff. Perhaps, you should recheck the archieves in January to refresh your memory. So, please do not try to spin your weave of disinformation.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Credit Where Due
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 15:51:20 -0000

>>You did collect taxes. And that was well done.

Not me. But I'm certain that the Consul and the Rogatores will be
happy
to hear your praise.<<

Actually, it is the Consular Quaestores who "collect", record and
report the taxes. This year they were:

Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio.

Many thinks gentlemen for a difficult job well done.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:44:31 -0400

Salve, Decimus Iunius Silanus:

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:28:57AM +0100, Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
> Salve Caius Minucius,
>
> > From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis
> > has done quite a
> > lot of work - I find it ungracious of you to imply
> > otherwise, <snipped>
>
> I think you'll find that criticism of ones actions, or
> in this case, inaction, is in the very nature of
> politics.

It's neither the action nor the inaction that the Tribune was
criticizing; unless I'm mistaken, she does not know what or how much the
Cohors has done. The criticism that I saw was aimed at the size, and
consequently the existence, of it.

> And I'm sure that our fair Tribune expected
> some heat in return for her post. Gracious of you to
> oblige Caius Minucius.

Those who post in order to get a heated reaction are generally referred
to as "trolls", and your statement seems to accuse the Tribune of this.
You may wish to reconsider it. I believe that her post was made in all
sincerity although it seemed affected by frustration.

Personally, I have confidence that the Tribune is fully capable of
dealing with any "heat" that she happens to draw in the course of her
duties; that's part of a Tribune's job, as she herself had noted in the
past. I'm certain that she can survive the mild warmth provided by my
comments.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
It is sweet and glorious to die for one's country.
-- Horace, "Carmina"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Credit Where Due
From:	labienus@novaroma.org
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:04:30 US/Central

Salvete omnes

> Actually, it is the Consular Quaestores who "collect", record and
> report the taxes. This year they were:
>
> Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio.

Quite true! And, Cn Octavius and Sex Apollonius have done a fine job this
year. Tax collection would have been much less smooth without them.

> Many thinks gentlemen for a difficult job well done.

Iterum in me! (even if a certain Noricus' agents attempted to sabotage a
certain consul's chariot during one of the ludi)

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 17:05:20 +0100 (BST)

Salve Caius Minucius,

> > And I'm sure that our fair Tribune expected
> > some heat in return for her post. Gracious of you
> to
> > oblige Caius Minucius.
>
> Those who post in order to get a heated reaction are
> generally referred
> to as "trolls", and your statement seems to accuse
> the Tribune of this.
> You may wish to reconsider it. I believe that her
> post was made in all
> sincerity although it seemed affected by
> frustration.

I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between
'posting and expecting to get heat' and 'posting in
order to get heat'. As such, you can rest assured that
I do not wish to 'reconsider' my statement.

Resorting to your usual tactic of putting words in
peoples mouths Scaevola. You have a reputation for it
and you really should learn to desist.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus
For a better Internet experience
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Credit Where Due
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 12:30:11 -0400

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 03:51:20PM -0000, gaiuspopilliuslaenas wrote:
> >>You did collect taxes. And that was well done.
>
> Not me. But I'm certain that the Consul and the Rogatores will be
> happy
> to hear your praise.<<
>
> Actually, it is the Consular Quaestores who "collect", record and
> report the taxes. This year they were:
>
> Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio.
>
> Many thinks gentlemen for a difficult job well done.

You're right, of course. Thank you for the correction, and I will join
with you in expressing my gratitude to them for that job.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes.
It is foolish to fear what you cannot avoid.
-- Cicero, "De officiis"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 13:29:18 -0300 (ART)

Salvete

--- Centurion M Bianchius Antonius
<imperialreign@yahoo.com> escreveu: >
> I find it unfortunate that it had to come to this. I
> look forward to voting for you again in the fall.
>
>
> 1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to
> govern them......Nova Roma

M.Arminius: According to my list, we have only 66
laws. Still much work to do!

> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni

Vale
Marcus Arminius

_______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
O melhor e-mail gratuito da internet: 6MB de espaço, antivírus, acesso POP3, filtro contra spam.
http://br.mail.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 12:45:18 -0400

Salve, Decimus Iunius Silanus:

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 05:05:20PM +0100, Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
> Salve Caius Minucius,
>
> Resorting to your usual tactic of putting words in
> peoples mouths Scaevola. You have a reputation for it
> and you really should learn to desist.

Your opinions of my reputation and my "tactics" are not my largest
concerns, I assure you. I tell the truth the way I see it; your opinions
do not figure much in the process. Since you're switching to /ad
hominem/ attacks, be sure to direct your mail to </dev/null@localhost>;
I'll answer you when I have the leisure. Hint: don't wear out the edge
of your chair.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Honores mutant mores.
The honours change the customs. (Power corrupts.)
-- N/A


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:47:41 -0400

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:13:23AM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such concern
> > about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done quite
> a
> > lot of work
>
> Ok, then "Where's the beef?" "Maybe its under the pickle."

<grin> Large pickles they're using, these days.

Just because something is obviously happening doesn't mean something
obvious is happening.
-- Larry Wall

The converse is also true. Just because nothing obvious is happening...

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Otium sine litteris mors est et hominis vivi sepultura.
Rest without reading is like dying and being buried alive.
-- Seneca Philosophus, "Epistulae"


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 17:39:21 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:13:23AM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus
wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola
<ben@c...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Do those titles take something away from you, then? Why such
concern
> > > about them? From my perspective, the Cohors Consulis has done
quite
> > a
> > > lot of work
> >
> > Ok, then "Where's the beef?" "Maybe its under the pickle."
>
> <grin> Large pickles they're using, these days.

Or mighty small patties. Claiming something does not make it so.
You can claim the Cohors Consulis is working hard on a ton of
projects, but that is merely anecdotal evidence. In my line of work
anecdotal evidence means nada. Show me the money, honey..... I
don't see no money.....

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 13:45:18 -0400

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 05:39:21PM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
> >
> > <grin> Large pickles they're using, these days.
>
> Or mighty small patties. Claiming something does not make it so.
> You can claim the Cohors Consulis is working hard on a ton of
> projects, but that is merely anecdotal evidence. In my line of work
> anecdotal evidence means nada. Show me the money, honey..... I
> don't see no money.....

I think we've been over that one. Not my responsibility, not my right,
and I'm not trying to establish it as evidence - see the "From my
perspective" qualifier in my original post. The difference is, I have a
good idea of how much work the Cohors has done, and everyone outside of
it is just guessing and basing their accusations on those guesses.
What's that called in your line of work?

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ars longa, vita brevis.
Art is long, life is short.
-- Seneca, "De brevitate vitae"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 11:54:50 -0400

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 06:53:06AM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> Ave Senator Q. Fabius,
>
> You forgot to mention the Aediles attempt to implement edicts that
> would establish a Secret Police force in Nova Roma on your list.

Yessss, my preciousssss, surely that entire Cohors *must* have been in
on that... there are *25* of them - surely that means something evil!

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
Everything changes, nothing perishes.
-- Ovid, "Metamorphoses"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 12:28:28 -0400

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 08:37:23AM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Salvete
> > Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> > so.
>
> Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
>
> You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
> have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
> Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
> Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
> directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
> addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
> informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Sulla: Actually, I think either you must have ignored a number of
> my posts or your attention span is extremely short.

You're welcome to assume the former; your posts are eminently ignorable.

> Because I do
> remember criticizing the Senior Consul's edicts when he appointed
> his Nova Byzantium Cohort staff.

And... what does this have to do with anything I've said? I suggest you
learn to read and understand the content of what you're replying to
before putting your hands on the keyboard; this may (no guarantees, but
it may) increase the trivially small information content in your
replies.

> Perhaps, you should recheck the
> archieves in January to refresh your memory. So, please do not try
> to spin your weave of disinformation.

<smile> The word you're looking for is "web". If you're using a tool,
you should know its name. What you're spreading may make good
fertilizer, but it's poor English.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra?
How long now, Catiline, will you abuse our patience?
-- Cicero, "In Catilinam. The beginning of Cicero's first speech against Catiline."


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 12:02:45 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: Caius Minucius Scaevola
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 08:37:23AM -0700, L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> Caius Minucius Scaevola wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:31:13AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Salvete
> > Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to do
> > so.
>
> Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
>
> You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla, and do not include Diana -
> have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for
> Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the
> Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach
> directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and
> addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably
> informed that he does not bite. Really, it's safe.
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Sulla: Actually, I think either you must have ignored a number of
> my posts or your attention span is extremely short.

You're welcome to assume the former; your posts are eminently ignorable.

Sulla: LOL thank you for giving me your permission. And, if my posts are so ignorable, why are you responding?

> Because I do
> remember criticizing the Senior Consul's edicts when he appointed
> his Nova Byzantium Cohort staff.

And... what does this have to do with anything I've said? I suggest you
learn to read and understand the content of what you're replying to
before putting your hands on the keyboard; this may (no guarantees, but
it may) increase the trivially small information content in your
replies.

Sulla: Well lets go back to your response to Senator Q. Fabius. You stated that, "You - and I specifically mean you and Sulla...have chosen to attack people who have done nothing more than work for Nova Roma and who do not have the power to promulgate laws, etc.; the Consul does, but he is clearly entirely too fearsome for you to approach directly. I suggest gathering what you can of your courage and addressing him with whatever issues you have - I've been reliably informed that he does not bite." So my response was that I have taken the Consul directly to task and have given you a specific example. To refute your "web" of disinformation.

> Perhaps, you should recheck the
> archieves in January to refresh your memory. So, please do not try
> to spin your weave of disinformation.

<smile> The word you're looking for is "web". If you're using a tool,
you should know its name. What you're spreading may make good
fertilizer, but it's poor English.

Sulla: I have never claimed to be an expert on grammar and spelling. And despite my lack of expertise you clearly understood what I was saying. My point still stands. I will await your next spin attempt.

Vale,

Sulla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Questions on Citizenship and the Forum
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 17:49:34 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gregory Rose <gfr@intcon.net>
Date : 15 May 2003 02:25:03

I think what really matters is how far citizenship was tied to taxation. As citizens came to be liable for more tax, so citizenship extended. In real terms, apart from possibly exempting some people from local laws, the citizenship could mean nothing even if Republican institutions had been functioning. That is possibly part of the reason the Republic saw no point to extending it. A Saul of Tarsus was not going to trek to Rome just to join in his tribal vote! Citizenship really implies participation and if that is not physically feasible, the point of citizenship is lost. When it becomes politcally moribund, then citizenship can gain a more modern sort of meaning. From my cynical viewpoint, I see similarities with extending the franchise to ever less 'movers & shakers' in the 20th century, all home-owners, working-class men, married woman, single women: it extends in direct proportion that political power is moveing out of direct electoral control.

Caesariensis.

“People who go around getting their panties in a knot when they allow
others to threaten their beliefs usually gain nothing but a sore ass...“
--Gwenius Maximus, 01/26/02

"Oh, go away and think for yourselves!".
"Master, tell us how to go away and think for ourselves". - 'Life of Brian'.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 12:38:05 -0700

Avete Omnes,

Next week on PBS, a show will be airing called the Kingdom of David. This is a 4 part Documentary regarding the history and evolution of Judiasm. I am specificially posting this in regards to part III and IV which air next week (Part I and II aired yesterday).

Here is a description of Part III and IV:

#103W The End of Days/The Gifts of the Jews *Letterbox/Widescreen where available*
In 63 B.C., the Roman General Pompeii leads his legions into the land of Judea. It is the beginning of a clash of cultures between Rome and the Jews that would grow into one of the most brutal conflicts in history. It also pits Jew against Jew, as many of the different factions of Judaism, such as the Zealots and the Essenes, clash over the interpretation of the true will of God as revealed in the Bible. Terrorism, political assassination, starvation and crucifixion dominate the landscape. The period ends with the Roman sack of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Out of the ashes will rise two new religions: rabbinical Judaism and Christianity.

With the destruction of the Temple, the Romans have destroyed the only place on earth, according to Biblical Law, where Jews can worship God. The Judaism of priests and sacrifices is lost forever, and rabbis struggle to reinvent the religion of Moses and David. They are forced to work during a period of incredible bloodshed and turmoil. In 132 A.D. Jewish zealots rise against Rome's legions in the Bar Kochba rebellion, forcing them to withdraw from the region. The Romans return with a vast army and slaughter nearly 600,000 Jews. They change the name of the region from Judea to Palestine and ban all Jews from Jerusalem. Desperate to start new lives, many Jews flee to distant lands, only to face another challenge -- a breakaway form of Judaism called Christianity. As it rises to political power, Christianity becomes deeply anti-Semitic. But Judaism survives -- and in doing so, preserves for all its unique gifts, including the rights of the individual and the rule of law -- gifts that will change the Western world forever.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 15:55:32 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/03 8:43:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
alexious@earthlink.net writes:
> Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
>

We are the people of Nova Roma, magistrates and privatis, who feel that it is

counterproductive to have such a large organization doing very little.
You say we have freedom of speech here. I am exercising it on the behalf
of a lot of citizens that seem to be scared of you. I do not understand
that,
but I guess there is strength in numbers. At least as far as intimidation is

concerned.
As for the Tribune's statements, while we are on opposite sides of the fence
politically, what she asks is within the scope of her responsibilities, I.E.,
protector
of the Nova Roma's constitution. The fact you responded with such annoyance
tells us that she is close to the mark.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 14:06:22 -0400

Salve

"1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to govern them......Nova
Roma"

Well said!!!!!

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Citizen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Centurion M Bianchius Antonius" <imperialreign@yahoo.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] I withdrawl my candidacy

>
> I find it unfortunate that it had to come to this. I look forward to
voting for you again in the fall.
>
>
> 1700 Citizens....400 tops Active.....30,000 laws to govern them......Nova
Roma
>
>
>
>
>
> Marcus Bianchius Antonius
> Propraetor, The Great Provincia Lacus Magni
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 20:17:15 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:

> I think we've been over that one. Not my responsibility, not my
right,
> and I'm not trying to establish it as evidence - see the "From my
> perspective" qualifier in my original post. The difference is, I
have a
> good idea of how much work the Cohors has done, and everyone
outside of
> it is just guessing and basing their accusations on those guesses.
> What's that called in your line of work?

When a person makes a unsubstantiated claim (anecdotal evidence) its
called just that an unsubstained claim. I making no claim that the
Cohors has done little work or much work. What I do claim is there
is a distinct lack of concrete evidence. I can claim I'm an elderly
Dutch woman but unless I have a birth certificate/passport/driver's
license that says I'm 78, female, and a citizen of the Netherlands
it's just that unsubstantiated. And just for the record, I am not
78, female, nor a citizen of the Netherlands and can prove it.

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 14:28:50 -0400

Salve Senator Q. Fabius Maximus

I agree with a great many things you have said in this post but can you tell
me what you mean by:

Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
> 1. The Eagle and it's over funding.

?

The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years Eagle.
That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will submit
receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers how
finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.

I received the first check from the Nova Roma treasury in late April or
early May. I am currently waiting on a second. But the Eagle is still being
written and the May issue will be in the mail by early next week.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: <qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

> In a message dated 5/14/03 4:41:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@callahans.org writes:
>
>
> > However, I'll ask you not to take gratuitous potshots at
> > the Cohors; it has done you no harm that I know of, and your perception
> > of what its effect should be - you seem to be saying that proposals
> > should move faster as a result of a larger Cohors, which is a highly
> > debatable assumption - is not what I would consider reasonable.
> Salvete
> Will you can ask. Stop giving us ammunition and we will have no reason to
do
> so.
> In case you haven't noticed Municius, this is a rather vocal lot here in
Nova
> Roma
> and after all the promises we kinda expected action.
>
> Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
> 1. The Eagle and it's over funding.
> 2. The continuous run-offs to elect Tribunes of the plebs.
> ( I have to say I admire the Rogators and their hard work so far. During
my
> consulship I couldn't keep Rogators in office.)
> 3. No Census yet, even though it is a Lex.
> 4. The fiasco with the Aediles leges and their statement against the Iraq
> war.
> 5. Election reform. I worked on a proposal in early Feb. It takes 3
months
> to work the bugs out?
> 6. The Senior Consul's constant absences. If he can't do the job, why did
he
> get stand?
>
> You did collect taxes. And that was well done. But for the others, the
> Tribune has every right to question you and your zeal as the peoples'
> representative, and protector of the constitution.
> There was no reason act outraged at someone doing her job.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 16:13:19 -0400

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 03:55:32PM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/15/03 8:43:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> alexious@earthlink.net writes:
> > Who, precisely, is "us"? Are you trying to coopt Diana into some faction
> > of your own, and do you have her permission to speak for her?
> >
>
> We are the people of Nova Roma

You are not, however many grandstanding speeches you make. You, Sulla,
and a few others are a small but vicious faction that has attempted to
thwart whatever Consul Quintilianus has proposed or tried - no matter
how much damage your attempts may cause to Nova Roma. I'm here to tell
you that your "my way or no way" attitude is repellent to me and to
anyone who truly cares for Nova Roma. If there's anything but jealousy
and smallmindedness informing your actions, you'd be hard put to prove
it.

> , magistrates and privatis, who feel that it is
> counterproductive to have such a large organization doing very little.

And so, your _feeling,_ without any information or proof, leads you to
attack - well, not the Consul himself, you don't seem to have enough
grit for that - but targets of opportunity, whom you believe you can
slander without resistance. Think again.

> You say we have freedom of speech here. I am exercising it on the behalf
> of a lot of citizens that seem to be scared of you.

Ah, I see. The lurkers support you in e-mail, do they? Yes indeed...
it's a vast and shadowy conspiracy in which I hold the subjugated
citizens of Nova Roma in a grip of terror, and you are their liberator.
All hail!

> I do not understand
> that,
> but I guess there is strength in numbers. At least as far as intimidation is
> concerned.

Amazing. I, by myself, possess the strength of numbers. Do you suppose
it's because my heart is pure, or what?

> As for the Tribune's statements, while we are on opposite sides of the fence
> politically, what she asks is within the scope of her responsibilities, I.E.,
> protector
> of the Nova Roma's constitution. The fact you responded with such annoyance
> tells us that she is close to the mark.

Still selling the same old tripe, eh? Statements are not questions,
Mancinus. Your fabrications won't wash.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Ignoti militi"
For the unknown soldier
-- Inscription on the tomb of the Unknown Soldier.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 16:35:37 -0400

On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 08:17:15PM -0000, quintuscassiuscalvus wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > The difference is, I
> have a
> > good idea of how much work the Cohors has done, and everyone
> outside of
> > it is just guessing and basing their accusations on those guesses.
> > What's that called in your line of work?
>
>
> When a person makes a unsubstantiated claim (anecdotal evidence) its
> called just that an unsubstained claim. I making no claim that the
> Cohors has done little work or much work.

You're right - you have not. Please note that I have not accused you of
doing so. Other people have, and I have made comments to that issue.

> What I do claim is there
> is a distinct lack of concrete evidence.

And I agree. However, that evidence is not up to me to provide, if it is
to be provided at all - which simply takes us back to my original
statement: if this is truly something that is important, it should be
put to the Consul. The decision belongs to him.

> I can claim I'm an elderly
> Dutch woman but unless I have a birth certificate/passport/driver's
> license that says I'm 78, female, and a citizen of the Netherlands
> it's just that unsubstantiated.

Baatje Torenvalk, is that *you*??? You look well for your age.

(I also suspect that if you _did_ possess one of those documents and
came up to present it in person, it would still not be considered
proof.)

> And just for the record, I am not
> 78, female, nor a citizen of the Netherlands and can prove it.

Oh. Darn. Guess I'll have to contain my disappointment. :)

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mea mihi conscientia pluris est quam omnium sermo.
My conscience means more to me than all speech.
-- Cicero, "Epistulae ad Atticum"


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Electoral Reform and the Consular Staff (WAS: Voting results)
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 21:13:33 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus,
Senator & Consular L. Cornelius Sulla, Tribune Diana
Moravia Aventina, Senator & Consular Decius Iunius
Palladius, Senator & Consular Q. Fabius Maximus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

I hope no one minds my compilation of many people's
points and my replies into a single message. I shall
address them mostly in the order in which messages
appeared on the main list. I should also point out
that nothing in this message represents the views of
anyone other than myself.

Cassius Calvus said:
> It would be a nice idea to get the Rogator's input
> on the matter of methodology of ballot counting...

This sounds eminently sensible to me, and I shall
suggest it to the Consul. Many thanks. I also have not
forgotten Senator Sinicius Drusus' idea of a
trial-run, which would be a good way to test the
proposed system when it is ready for publication.

Cornelius Sulla said:
> In this situation, It would be better to simply drop
> off the lowest vote getter in the previous runoff
> and remove the write in candidate section. That
> would be a better solution IMHO.

I would be slightly nervous about such a course of
action unless the intention to do it had been made
clear before the opening of nominations. Though it's
not specifically stated in the constitution, it will I
think be generally agreed that one of the rights
common to all assidui is the right to stand for
election to any office for which he or she is legally
eligible. To remove a candidate from the ballot
without having made this intention clear before
inviting people to stand would, I fear, be to limit
this right. In any case, the decision of the Tribunes
to ask the Senate to appoint a fifth Tribune makes the
discussion in this particular case academic (though no
less interesting for that).

Moravia Aventina said:
> What is taking so long when there are 25 advisors
> and assistants in his Cohors Consulis to help him
> with this proposal?
...
> Care to give us a hint on what these [the
> Consul's other projects] are? I think
> the reasoning behind the large cohors was that a
> lot would get done this year. So far, I see 25 +
> people with titles and nothing coming out of the
> Cohors Consulis and more than one third of the
> term is done. Or have I missed something?

>From reading this message of yours and subsequent ones
I get the impression I've made you angry or upset. If
this impression is correct, I'm very sorry indeed both
for being a cause of distress and for failing in my
consistent efforts to be respectful and diplomatic
towards everyone I address.

As to your specific questions: I can say from my own
experience that a great deal of work has been done in
the Consul's Law & Politics Office (I can't speak for
any of the other offices), and we have produced three
legislative bills together with various smaller
projects; a fourth major bill is currently under
development. I'm afraid I can't say what they are,
since I'm oath-bound to act in the interest of my
magistrate where it is legal to do so, and I haven't
been instructed to discuss any of these projects
except the electoral reform bill. I confess I don't
know what the average productivity of a Consul is, or
is expected to be, but I note that at this time last
year one Consul had promulgated four short bills and
the other two. At least two of the bills we have
worked on are considerably longer and more complex
than any of those, and the third at least as long.

It would be quite legitimate to ask why these bills
have not yet been promulgated. I can't give a very
satisfactory answer, because once we have finished
helping the Consul draft a bill he takes it to his
senior advisers for in-depth discussion, sometimes
sending it back to us for changes. I am not a senior
adviser, nor am I Consul, so I can't say what happens
at that level or how long it takes. Evidently it takes
a while. However, I am optimistic that we shall see
these bills on the table soon.

Moravia Aventina further said:
> > In the mean time, he has been discussing his
> > proposed
> > changes with the Tribunes, (snipped)
>
> Has he? While I do appreciate you a great deal,
> you really shouldn't announce what other people
> are discussing. Because in this case, you are
> wrong. As of now, I have not discussed anything
> with the Senior Consul and I am sure that
> my clleagues would have let me know if they were.
> About 6 weeks ago I received an email from the
> Senior Consul which said that something was in
> the works and that he would send it to me soon.
> So far I have not recieved anything. And about
> 6 weeks before that, you told me not to propose
> new electoral legislation because the Senior
> Consul would propose something soon. And during
> this 3 months of waiting, we've have 3
> failed run-offs under our belts.

Again, I am sorry if I have angered you. It is a
matter of public record that the Consul has been
discussing this matter with you, since I have been
doing it on his behalf on the e-mail list of the
Plebeian Assembly, to which any citizen may subscribe.
The Consul is a Patrician and therefore unable to post
to that list himself, which is why I have been
speaking in favour of his proposal on his behalf.
Perhaps 'discussion' is indeed the wrong word, since
despite my several messages on that list addressed to
the Tribunes encouraging them to consider and discuss
with me the Consul's proposals, no Tribune has in fact
responded.

I'm afraid I must also disagree with your statement
that I 'told you not to propose new electoral
legislation'. I did indeed contact you to let you know
that the Consul had a proposal in the works and to
suggest that you wait for it to be ready before
enacting any legislation of your own. I have a copy of
the message and would be perfectly willing to show it
to anyone who believes that I or the Consul would
dream of telling a Tribune what to do or not to do.

Since these initial approaches, you have not been
waiting empty-handed, for even though the Consul's
bill is not yet ready for publication, I was
authorized by him to send to the Plebeian Assembly
list a comprehensive description of the system he
proposes so that the Tribunes could, if you chose,
adopt the system yourselves before even the Consul,
who is the author of the system. That message is in
the archives of that list. It received no response or
acknowledgement from any Tribune, to my
disappointment. Nonetheless, the Consul would, I am
sure, still be eager to cooperate with the Tribunes if
they wished to implement the proposed system, and I
myself should be happy to explain it further or answer
any concerns they may have about it.

Moravia Aventina further said:
> The Tribunes are now discussing (with input from
> the Commitia Plebis Tributa) what we need to do--
> and do quickly -- in order to take care of our
> open Tribune spot once and for all.

I am slightly confused. Before the most recent run-off
election an official message was posted on the
Plebeian list by the Tribunes stating that if the
election failed to fill the vacancy then the Tribunes
would ask the Senate to appoint the highest-scoring
candidate as Tribune. After that, consideration would
be given to a long-term solution. Is that no longer
the intention? And if it is, what are the Tribunes now
discussing?

Iunius Palladius said:
> Yes, the consul is working on laws to alter
> the electoral process but anything he proposes
> would not have the slightest effect on the
> election of Tribunes. Alterations to that process
> can only be done by the Tribunes themselves in
> the Comitia Plebis. Please do not try to
> make a connection that does not exist.

I am sorry that you have such a dim view of me that
you assume I am deliberately trying to deceive the
public (to what end I can't guess) when I have simply
made an honest mistake. What you say is quite correct,
and I realized it as soon as I had posted, so I
immediately sent a follow-up message (which came
through to me directly after the first message I
posted, and which evidently made it to the main list
since Senator Sulla then replied to it) explaining
that although the Consul cannot propose changes to the
Plebeian Assembly, the changes he proposed for the
Centuriate Assembly are equally applicable to the
Plebeian Assembly and could be taken up by the
Tribunes if they wished. I was not trying to falsify a
connexion, but merely forgetting that the adoption of
the Consul's system by the Tribunes would not be
automatic - a mistake which you can understand given
my strong belief that the Consul's system is the best
option and my equally strong belief that the Tribunes
will see that it is!

Fabius Maximus said:
> Lets look at the Gov's record so far shall we:
> 1. The Eagle and it's over funding.
> 2. The continuous run-offs to elect Tribunes of
> the plebs. ( I have to say I admire the Rogators
> and their hard work so far. During my
> consulship I couldn't keep Rogators in office.)
> 3. No Census yet, even though it is a Lex.
> 4. The fiasco with the Aediles leges and
> their statement against the Iraq war.
> 5. Election reform. I worked on a proposal in
> early Feb. It takes 3 months
> to work the bugs out?
> 6. The Senior Consul's constant absences. If
> he can't do the job, why did he
> get stand?

Naturally I don't wish to get into a general defence
of the 'government' - indeed I'm not sure that the
concept of 'the government' is appropriate to our
political system. It's not as though there are parties
which are either in or out of power - the magistrates
are all independent of one another, and pursue their
own policies however they choose. However, since you
raise important points I shall try to comment as far
as I can.

'The Eagle and it's over-funding'. I presume you don't
mean to suggest that the existence of the Eagle is a
problem for which the 'government' should be held
responsible. Nor am I aware of any problem of the
Eagle being over-funded, but perhaps I do not move in
the right circles.

'The continuout run-offs'. Well, as Senators Sulla and
Palladius were quick to point out, the electoral
system of the Plebeian Assembly is not in the remit of
either of the magistrates I work for, so I can't
really comment except to say that I get the impression
that the Tribunes are genuinely trying to come up with
a solution. The fact that the Senior Consul has
attempted to give them a solution speaks well for his
concern for the problem, even though it is not his
responsibility. The fact that the Tribunes have not
responded to his suggestion I can only assume is the
result of the coincidental failure of all the Tribunes
to notice it.

'No Census yet, even though it is a Lex'. It is indeed
a law - the law in question says that the Census must
'take place during the Consulship of Marcus Octavius
Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix (2755
AUC)'. It is really very difficult for the current
Consuls to enforce this law, since they would have to
go back in time to do so. If you have a problem with
the failure of last year's Censors to obey that law,
or with last year's Consuls to force them to do so,
then really you had better prosecute them for
maladministration. As for the current need for a
Census, the responsibility rests with the Censors.
Nonetheless, even though again it is not his
particular responsibility, the Senior Consul is
working on helping the Censors to conduct the Census
by finding way to overcome the problems which
prevented last year's Censors from doing so.

On the Aediles' conduct I can't contribute anything,
since I don't work for them.

'Election reform. I worked on a proposal in early
Feb. It takes 3 months to work the bugs out?' I'm not
sure what you mean when you say that you 'worked on a
proposal'. I don't mean to diminish your contribution,
which was very helpful indeed, but I must say for the
record that you and other Senators were asked for your
thoughts on the possibility of allowing voters to vote
for as many candidates as there are vacancies. Many
Senators responded, and their help was greatly
appreciated. It soon became apparent that this small
change was not going to solve the problem, and so the
Consul went further and came up with a proposal to
completely overhaul the electoral system. February was
the very beginning of months of work, which is now
nearly finished. When the bill is promulgated, I hope
those who seek to criticise it without reading it will
be persuaded that it was worth a little wait.

'The Senior Consul's constant absences.' I'm not aware
that the Consul has been constantly absent - I have
read messages from him quite recently. Perhaps you
mean that his public profile has not been consistently
high - I would suggest that this is a sign of the
large quantity of work he is doing for the public
good, including the various projects which he has been
working on with the help of his assistants.

Cassius Calvus said:
> Or mighty small patties. Claiming something does
> not make it so. You can claim the Cohors Consulis
> is working hard on a ton of projects, but that
> is merely anecdotal evidence.

This is certainly true, though I hope you don't mean
to suggest that any member of the Consul's staff would
lie about the amount of work he or she has done.
Moreover, I tend to think that the job of a magistrate
and his or her assistants is not to prove that he or
she has been working hard for the public good, but in
fact to work hard for the public good. If you don't
believe that the Consul is performing his duties, it
is your own duty to prosecute him for official
misconduct; similarly any of his assistants. If,
however, you merely wish the Consul to devote all his
time and that of his assistants to proving that he is
working and none of it to working, I suspect he won't
oblige, and I certainly shan't.

I hope I have answered the concerns of those who have
them. I should like to reiterate the point which is of
immediate concern, which is that if the Tribunes wish
to avail themselves of the Consul's proposed system to
eliminate run-off elections, they are welcome to
contact me about it, or the Consul himself. I would
encourage them to at least consider the proposed
system before instituting any changes of their own,
for the simple reason that I believe the proposed
system to be better than any other which has been or
is likely to be suggested, and it would be a shame if
the Plebeian Assembly were give an inferior voting
system; it goes without saying, however, that they are
free to do as they please.

Cordus

=====

www.strategikon.org

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 22:22:45 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Cornelius Sulla“ <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date : 15 May 2003 20:38:05
>
region. The Romans return with a vast army and slaughter nearly 600,000 Jews. They change the name of the region from Judea to Palestine and ban all Jews from Jerusalem. Desperate to start new lives, many Jews flee to distant lands, only to face another challenge -- a breakaway form of Judaism called Christianity. As it rises to political power, Christianity becomes deeply anti-Semitic. But Judaism survives -- and in doing so, preserves for all its unique gifts, including the rights of the individual and the rule of law -- gifts that will change the Western world forever.
>
Made by Mosad? Jews were leaving Judaea-Israel at least as early as 250BCE to escape theocratic repression for the intellectual freedom of Alexandria and there were substantial Jewish enclaves in most other Eastern cities. Alexandria and Elephatine Island near Aswan had Temples. It is only as the kings try to dominate a country that lasted only for three reigns before splitting in civil war that they enacted Jerusalem as their centre. After Solomon, Israel must have made its own arrangments, probably at the original site of Hebron. Following return of some Babylonian exiles from the mere 60 years when they had been writing the Bible to distance themselves as far as possible from similar religions, the first thing they decided was that those hwo had stayed and maintained the ancestral traditions were too religiously compromised than their super-holy selves to join in rebuilding their Temple. These then, who maintained Hebrew tradition, must be heirs to whatever the true religion was before the exiles purged it. The built their own temple on Mount Gerazim (which later Jews, anticipating Christianity, destroyed) in the district of Shomron, so were called Samaritans. Some 500 still exist.
Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 17:22:13 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/03 2:19:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Qfabiusmaxmi
writes:

> In a message dated 5/15/03 1:17:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> pectus_roboreus1@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> >> well, not the Consul himself, you don't seem to have enough
>> grit for that - but targets of opportunity, whom you believe you can
>> slander without resistance. Think again.
>>
>
> The Consul is my Gens mate, you might recall, and he will tell you that if
> I'm
> displeased with his performance, I'll let him know. So have no fears
> there.
>
> No, all I did was support the Tribune when she was criticized by a member
> of the overbloated organization after speaking out about a topic that we
> all
> believe but hadn't spoken about.
>
> The fact you are all covering your asses here with heated commentary
> really tells me a lot.
> As for attacks on the organization, you haven't been here that long here
> have you? You better grow a thicker skin if you intend to remain in
> politics.
> And consider. This pointless rhetoric is not even close to what real
> Romans
> engaged in during the Republic.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 14:21:59 -0700

Ave,

Thank you very much for your speculation, while I do not agree with all of your speculation some of what you state is thought provoking.and interesting.

I have seen the first two portions last nite and on the nr_jewish_sod@yahoogroups.com list I posted my thoughts in regards to what I have seen so far.

And, just for clarification the quote that you were responding to was the description of the series. The link is:

http://www.kcts.org/seriesdetail.asp?N1=KIDA

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special

-----Original Message-----
From : "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date : 15 May 2003 20:38:05
>
region. The Romans return with a vast army and slaughter nearly 600,000 Jews. They change the name of the region from Judea to Palestine and ban all Jews from Jerusalem. Desperate to start new lives, many Jews flee to distant lands, only to face another challenge -- a breakaway form of Judaism called Christianity. As it rises to political power, Christianity becomes deeply anti-Semitic. But Judaism survives -- and in doing so, preserves for all its unique gifts, including the rights of the individual and the rule of law -- gifts that will change the Western world forever.
>
Made by Mosad? Jews were leaving Judaea-Israel at least as early as 250BCE to escape theocratic repression for the intellectual freedom of Alexandria and there were substantial Jewish enclaves in most other Eastern cities. Alexandria and Elephatine Island near Aswan had Temples. It is only as the kings try to dominate a country that lasted only for three reigns before splitting in civil war that they enacted Jerusalem as their centre. After Solomon, Israel must have made its own arrangments, probably at the original site of Hebron. Following return of some Babylonian exiles from the mere 60 years when they had been writing the Bible to distance themselves as far as possible from similar religions, the first thing they decided was that those hwo had stayed and maintained the ancestral traditions were too religiously compromised than their super-holy selves to join in rebuilding their Temple. These then, who maintained Hebrew tradition, must be heirs to whatever the true religion was before the exiles purged it. The built their own temple on Mount Gerazim (which later Jews, anticipating Christianity, destroyed) in the district of Shomron, so were called Samaritans. Some 500 still exist.
Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Questions on Citizenship and the Forum
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 20:26:08 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Caesariensi salutem dicit.

Salve, Caesariensis.

> I think what really matters is how far citizenship was tied to
taxation. As citizens came to be liable for more tax, so citizenship
extended. In real terms, apart from possibly exempting some people
from local laws, the citizenship could mean nothing even if Republican
institutions had been functioning. That is possibly part of the reason
the Republic saw no point to extending it. A Saul of Tarsus was not
going to trek to Rome just to join in his tribal vote! Citizenship
really implies participation and if that is not physically feasible,
the point of citizenship is lost. When it becomes politcally moribund,
then citizenship can gain a more modern sort of meaning. From my
cynical viewpoint, I see similarities with extending the franchise to
ever less 'movers & shakers' in the 20th century, all home-owners,
working-class men, married woman, single women: it extends in direct
proportion that political power is moveing out of direct electoral
control.

Extension of tax base was almost certainly a motivation for the
Antonine Constitutio, but I think the matter is more complex earlier.
From Claudius' "Letter to the Aedui" and Vespasian's extension of
Latin rights to Hispania there is a clearcut programme of using the
levels of citizenship as part of a Romanisation strategy. Behind
that, surely, is the consideration of "the more we integrate them into
the system, the less we have to spend putting down revolts," but there
is also an ideology of "civilising by Romanising" which cannot be
discounted as a motivation for a liberal citizenship policy. At the
level of those who were receiving citizenship the political benefits
(except for the highest levels of provincial society) were not the
principal concern. The right of commercium -- particularly the
economic advantages of contracts enforceable in Roman courts, less
restrictive laws of inheritance, a more favourable position vis-a-vis
taxation (at least until the mid-2nd century CE), and the upward
social mobility that all this could facilitate -- and the ability to
evade local prosecution (in the Hellenistic east courts were as much a
local political instrument as late Roman republican courts became,
arbitrary corporal punishment was a commonplace, and non-citizens of a
polis were generally granted far less recourse, to or protection by
the local courts, than citizens of the polis) by transfer to Roman
jurisdiction were highly desirable regardless of one's ability to get
to Rome to vote in the comitia, and that was true even under the
Republic. Even though voting in the comitia became meaningless for
all Romans when the powers of election and legislation were
transferred to the Senate in early principate, Roman citizenship was a
considerable asset for its recipients well into the principate, and
that is evidenced as well by the extraordinary attention paid in Roman
law to fradulent claims of citizenship.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Concerning the Eagle was Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 17:29:14 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/03 1:41:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, spqr753@msn.com
writes:

> The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years Eagle.
> That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will submit
> receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers how
> finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.
>
>

And I received your latest issue before I left and read it on the plane.
Well done. I'll be making a donation for 100.00 to the Eagle when I return.
I encourage those who can afford to subscribe to do it. It is becoming less
about Nova Roma, and more about Rome and Nova Roma, together. Excellent
concept. And very marketable.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Cohors Consulis
From:	"pjane" <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 21:28:37 -0000

At the beginning of this year, I accepted an invitation by Caeso
Fabius to be part of his Cohors Consulis. I was not asked to pledge
my loyalty to anyone, or to express (or refrain from expressing) any
opinion.

At that time, it seemed to me, as it does now, that C. Fabius was
attempting to spread out a large amount of work so that neither he
nor any member of his staff became overburdened. I joined because I
am interested in working on behalf of Nova Roma. I have done so, most
recently as Sextus Apollonius' assistant in the tax collection.

In this particular case, the Cohors system proved effective. Sextus
Apollonius, as it turned out, was moving to Paris during the time of
the tax collection, and could not carry out all the duties he would
normally have been assigned. Because of the Cohors organization, a
deputy (me) had already been named, was aware of the project's scope
and was available to help. Gnaeus Octavius Noricus did the lion's
share of the work and should be given appropriate credit.

In an organization such as this one, the problem of "volunteer
fatigue" is very real. I recognize that there are some here who would
like to see NR accomplish more. I challenge them to volunteer to take
on some of the tasks they would like to see completed.

P. Cassia


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 17:54:41 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/2003 4:41:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spqr753@msn.com writes:

> The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years Eagle.
> That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will submit
> receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers how
> finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.

Personally, I think this is a terrible way to finance a publication. The
Eagle is Nova Roma's publication. It should be publishing it, and not
requiring one of its citizens to publish it and get reimbursed. Is there no
trust?

The Eagle should have a budget that pays for the publishing and the mailing.
No one should have to pay for anything out of their pocket. If necessary
perhaps the Curator Differum needs a quaestor to handle the finances and
disperse funds.

G. Modius Athanasius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Questions on Citizenship and the Forum
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 22:57:41 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Gregory Rose <gfr@intcon.net>
Date : 15 May 2003 21:26:08

Salve!
I think what we see is a change in meaning of the Citizenship to something more recognisably modern, possibly closest to American dual citizenship of state and State. Before, citizen really means likely to be called up to fight and therefore getting together to have a say in the matter. By the time Rome becomes a 'state' as the Hellenistic kingdoms never quite were, citizenship has the modern undertone of culture. It would be quite in keeping with the brilliant (autistic?) mind of Claudius to grasp something so beyond his contemporaries. It ismore than Hellenismos, less than the thousand or less Spartiate citizenry, almost a group of initiates. It is much closer to what we saw citizenship as up to some 20 years ago. I'm not entirely sure if multi-cultural ghetto-ising still sees it in such a cohesive way.

Caesariensis

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 15:02:11 -0700

Ave!

We had a Governor who embezzled funds previously in Nova Roma. So, I would be very hesitant about the lack of financial oversight.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa

In a message dated 5/15/2003 4:41:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spqr753@msn.com writes:

> The Senate, last time I checked, appropriated $877.00 for this years Eagle.
> That comes to 87.70 per issue for 10 issues or $73.00 for 12. I will submit
> receipts for no more that this amount and just so everybody remembers how
> finances in Nova Roma work, you spend and then you get reimbursed.

Personally, I think this is a terrible way to finance a publication. The
Eagle is Nova Roma's publication. It should be publishing it, and not
requiring one of its citizens to publish it and get reimbursed. Is there no
trust?

The Eagle should have a budget that pays for the publishing and the mailing.
No one should have to pay for anything out of their pocket. If necessary
perhaps the Curator Differum needs a quaestor to handle the finances and
disperse funds.

G. Modius Athanasius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 22:50:18 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : “L. Cornelius Sulla“ <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date : 15 May 2003 22:21:59
>
>And, just for clarification the quote that you were responding to was the description of the series. The link is:
>
I was maybe a little over-aggressive but this trite 'everybody knows' history annoys me. What everybody knows in this case is that the Babylonians and Romans, in that limbo called 'the Past' together forced 'the Jews' into exile from which they have a right to return ever since. There are examples from the other side, mainly the 'right' of some native peoples cheated by European invaders to return to their ancestral lands - which they often conquered off somebody else in the first place, so had no more entitlement than their supplanters. That view was promulgated by some to the detriment of others, in part the Samaritans, in part descendents of Israel (where Jesus is said to have come from) rather than Judaea, in part anti-Zionists Jews: "Stuttgart ist unser Zion" was one famous Rabbi's answer to early Zionism. An unfortunate choice! Obviously why the move to a political homeland never happened in Muslim lands where there was little persecution and nothing to stop Jews from migrating to that part of the Ottoman Empire if they chose.
There was a very good BBC series called I think just Jews which traced all the history. What we see is tainted by having incorporated itself in the religion just as Constantine did in Orthodoxy. King David brought the Ark to Jerusalem, a fine site, and Solomon built the Temple. But how did the people of Hebron feel about that? How were people worshiping before? There are occasions when the Ark is referenced in two places at the same time. One explanation is miracle, closely followed by the modern word for miracle, myth. A simpler explanation is that Jeovah being everywhere, could be manifest in more than one Ark, thus more than one Temple simultaneously as well as could any other divinity.

Caesariensis.

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Coins Again
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 21:50:32 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> As I promised, here is another numismatic link, the "Roman
> Numismatic Gallery":
>
> http://www.numismatics.org/publications/romangeneral/
>
> This site has some of the most detailed and beautiful Roman
> numismatic photography on the net with sections on imperial
> portraiture, countermarks, legionary stamps, military diplomas,
> military equipment, officials, provinces, buildings, animals, gods
> and mintmarks on Roman coins.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

You are right, amice. It is an excellent link. Even though you had
already shared it with us in your last message about Roman coins ;-).

No problem, my dear Gai Iuli. We all make mistakes sometimes (good
Gods! I thought I would *never* say that to C. Iulius Scaurus!) :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting results. Comitia plebis tributa
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 18:22:59 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/2003 6:10:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
alexious@earthlink.net writes:

> We had a Governor who embezzled funds previously in Nova Roma. So, I would
> be very hesitant about the lack of financial oversight.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

I can understand that completely. However, I am editor of a publication for
another organization I belong to. We have about 500 subscribers. The budget
is $1600 for each issue, but I try to keep it well under that amount. I
could NOT afford fronting the $1600 per issue (4 times a year), to be
reimbursed at a later date.

Perhaps a system were the Eagle editor puts the issue together, lays it out,
and then sends it (via file transfer) to a Consular staff member who prints
it and distributes it. The funds stay at a central location, but the editor
still has direct oversight of the important things.

Just a thought...

Athanasius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Coins Redux
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 22:33:20 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Salici Asturi et omnibus Quiritibus salutem
plurimam dicit.

Avete, omnes.

Veniam peto. I appear to have missed a click in cut and paste from
bookmarks to word processor. Here is the _real_ link to the "Roman
Numismatic Gallery":

http://www.romancoins.info/

This site has some of the most detailed and beautiful Roman numismatic
photography on the net with sections on imperial portraiture,
countermarks, legionary stamps, military diplomas, military equipment,
officials, provinces, buildings, animals, gods and mintmarks on Roman
coins.

And here's a link to the Roman material on i-numis.com:

http://www.i-numis.com/rome/alphabet.html

The i-numis.com site, created by JŽr™me Mairat (a specialist in Roman
coins) and StŽphan Sombart (a specialist in French royal numismatics),
provides online articles and books on numismatics, including classic
antiquarian works and recent scholarship. The Greek- and
Roman-related material is generally very good. The site is available
in French and English.

Valete, omnes.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Cohors Consulis
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 15:31:30 -0700

Avete Senator P. Cassia et Omnes,

At the beginning of this year, I accepted an invitation by Caeso
Fabius to be part of his Cohors Consulis. I was not asked to pledge
my loyalty to anyone, or to express (or refrain from expressing) any
opinion.

Sulla: I do not think that is the issue.

At that time, it seemed to me, as it does now, that C. Fabius was
attempting to spread out a large amount of work so that neither he
nor any member of his staff became overburdened.

Sulla: Interesting, he has summoned the Senate twice and has summoned the Comitia once (for a runoff), where is this overburden of work? Last year when I was Consul I managed perfectly well with 1 Consular Quaestor, 1 Religious Advisor, 3 staff members. By this time last year every month (in which I had the fasces) had a comitia summons and nearly every month had a Senate summons as well. By this time last year about half of my laws were promulgated. So, I guess my question is, given my experience in being Consul (last year) what has changed between then and now to justify the huge staffing requirements?

I joined because I am interested in working on behalf of Nova Roma. I have done so, most recently as Sextus Apollonius' assistant in the tax collection.

Sulla: That's good. And, for the record I do appreciate your continued service and involvement to Nova Roma, it does not go unnoticed.

In this particular case, the Cohors system proved effective.

Sulla: How are you measuring the cohors system to justify its effectiveness? By not promulgating laws? By not summoning the Comitia? By improper summons and voting issues in the Senate? How exactly are you coming to the conclusion that the Cohors system is effective?

Sextus Apollonius, as it turned out, was moving to Paris during the time of the tax collection, and could not carry out all the duties he would normally have been assigned.

Sulla: I understand life issues. When I was Consul last year two of my trusted and reliable staff members had deaths in their families that prevented them from contributing more of their experience and assistance. Yet, that did not prevent me from doing my own research and legal preparation when it came down to promulgating laws that I viewed as necessary for the Res Publica. So, this leads me to the question of what exactly is Consul Caeso Fabius doing besides supervising his bloated Nova Byantinesque staff?

Because of the Cohors organization, a deputy (me) had already been named, was aware of the project's scope and was available to help. Gnaeus Octavius Noricus did the lion's share of the work and should be given appropriate credit.

Sulla: I agree, Gn. Octavius Noricus was an very capable and responsive Quaestor. My continuous interaction with him was professional and responsive. He does deserve a lot of the credit in the area of the tax collection.

In an organization such as this one, the problem of "volunteer
fatigue" is very real.

Sulla: Yes, but one of the many ways to counter volunteer fatigue is to have leadership and to lead by example. To date that is seriously lacking. What exactly has Consul Caeso Fabius done to show that he has lead Nova Roma as Consul? Where are the laws that he stated in his campaign he would promulgate? All we are getting to date is teased and diddled by his staff members, and there is noting to prevent us from coming to the conclusion that they know more about what is going on than the Senior Consul who has remained silent throughout this entire exchange, in addition when he does seem to have the fasces he gets called away on trips.

I recognize that there are some here who would like to see NR accomplish more. I challenge them to volunteer to take on some of the tasks they would like to see completed.

Sulla: Well, I have been one of the citizens who would like to see NR accomplish more. And, in case you're wondering, I am currently working on organizing an event in Las Vegas for June 2004 at Caesar's Palace. Hopefully, this will be a recurring event and this event will be a pure Nova Roman event (not sponsored by any other legion).

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

P. Cassia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 15:36:02 -0700

Ave Caesariensis,

Its understandable. :) The issue was that I only posted the descriptions for parts III and IV. I left out Parts I and II because they were not applicable to Nova Roma. :) So I just tried to fashion my post towards this audience. My apologies for the misdirection.

Again, please feel free to sign up to nr_jewish_sod@yahoogroups.com and you can see the entire description (parts I-IV) and my review of parts I and II.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: me-in-@disguise.co.uk
To: nova-roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Kingdom of David - PBS Special

-----Original Message-----
From : "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date : 15 May 2003 22:21:59
>
>And, just for clarification the quote that you were responding to was the description of the series. The link is:
>
I was maybe a little over-aggressive but this trite 'everybody knows' history annoys me. What everybody knows in this case is that the Babylonians and Romans, in that limbo called 'the Past' together forced 'the Jews' into exile from which they have a right to return ever since. There are examples from the other side, mainly the 'right' of some native peoples cheated by European invaders to return to their ancestral lands - which they often conquered off somebody else in the first place, so had no more entitlement than their supplanters. That view was promulgated by some to the detriment of others, in part the Samaritans, in part descendents of Israel (where Jesus is said to have come from) rather than Judaea, in part anti-Zionists Jews: "Stuttgart ist unser Zion" was one famous Rabbi's answer to early Zionism. An unfortunate choice! Obviously why the move to a political homeland never happened in Muslim lands where there was little persecution and nothing to stop Jews from migrating to that part of the Ottoman Empire if they chose.
There was a very good BBC series called I think just Jews which traced all the history. What we see is tainted by having incorporated itself in the religion just as Constantine did in Orthodoxy. King David brought the Ark to Jerusalem, a fine site, and Solomon built the Temple. But how did the people of Hebron feel about that? How were people worshiping before? There are occasions when the Ark is referenced in two places at the same time. One explanation is miracle, closely followed by the modern word for miracle, myth. A simpler explanation is that Jeovah being everywhere, could be manifest in more than one Ark, thus more than one Temple simultaneously as well as could any other divinity.

Caesariensis.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Cohors Consulis
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 22:53:38 -0000

Salvete Quirites.

I would like to share a few thoughts with you all about our latest
discussion. I think that Patricia Cassia has made a few important
remarks, so I would like to use her message as an introduction to my
own comments.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "pjane" <pcassia@n...> wrote:
> At the beginning of this year, I accepted an invitation by Caeso
> Fabius to be part of his Cohors Consulis. I was not asked to pledge
> my loyalty to anyone, or to express (or refrain from expressing)
> any opinion.
>
> At that time, it seemed to me, as it does now, that C. Fabius was
> attempting to spread out a large amount of work so that neither he
> nor any member of his staff became overburdened. I joined because I
> am interested in working on behalf of Nova Roma. I have done so,
> most recently as Sextus Apollonius' assistant in the tax
> collection.
>
> In this particular case, the Cohors system proved effective. Sextus
> Apollonius, as it turned out, was moving to Paris during the time
> of the tax collection, and could not carry out all the duties he
> would normally have been assigned. Because of the Cohors
> organization, a deputy (me) had already been named, was aware of
> the project's scope and was available to help. Gnaeus Octavius
> Noricus did the lion's share of the work and should be given
> appropriate credit.

Thank you for "stepping forward" for that task, Patricia. I have to
say that this year's tax collection has been pretty smooth; that is a
clear sign of a lot of work from Cn. Octavius Noricus and you.

> In an organization such as this one, the problem of "volunteer
> fatigue" is very real.

Ah, this is too true. An excellent commentary, Patricia.

We should *always* keep in mind that Nova Roma is based on
*voluntary* work. None of our magistrates or their assistants gets
paid for their work, and most (if not all) of them do work countless
hours in this Republic's behalf.

So our consul has managed to convince 25 people to work with him for
no money, no compensations and (as it is clear now) no recognition.
How has he managed to do that? I don't know; I could barely convince
three or four people to do the same thing with me :-).

The consular cohors is not the ominous conspiracy some try to imply
it is; it is just a bunch of fellow Novoromans who try to do their
best. Getting a lot of people involved into the tasks of government
may have some drawbacks (things certainly get more complex when a lot
of people is involved), but it also has some benefits: instead of
having 25 people indulging in mud-sliding on this mailing list, we
keep them busy in activities that will profit us all :-).

So I think that the members of our consular cohors, and all the
magistrates of Nova Roma and their assistants, need and *deserve* our
constant support. Remember that these people are voluntarily
sacrificing some of their free time (in many cases, *most* of it) to
build a new Roman nation. They are working for us for free, citizens.

Does that mean that we have to agree with them in everything?
Certainly not. But perhaps there are better ways to express our own
ideas and concerns. One that does not place our *voluntary* work
system under unbearable strain. Constructive criticism, reasonable
debate, good manners; they seem like the best way to repay all that
effort and to put something from our part to build Nova Roma as well,
if we don't want to take part of the workload on our shoulders.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Coins Again
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 22:56:23 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Gn Salici Asturi salutem dicit.

Salve, Gn. Salix.

> You are right, amice. It is an excellent link. Even though you had
> already shared it with us in your last message about Roman coins ;-).
>
> No problem, my dear Gai Iuli. We all make mistakes sometimes (good
> Gods! I thought I would *never* say that to C. Iulius Scaurus!) :-).

If my typographical skills were a measure of intelligence, you'd
rightly take me for an imbecile. I am deeply grateful to the Gods
that I'm in a line of work which doesn't require much manual
dexterity, but, then, if I had been born in historical Rome, I'd
likely have been exposed on a hillside shortly after birth or doomed
to beggary, since I'm damned near blind without my glasses (and I
don't have the artistic skills to try to follow Homer's career path).

And this one is nothing compared to the time I glossed over an Old
English typo ("hlafordscite" instead of the correct "hlafordscipe") in
an overhead for a talk I was giving.

Someday we'll have a chat about why Vespasian didn't extend Latin
rights to Asturia... :-).

Vale bene, amice.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Coins Redux
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 23:02:07 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Gn. Salici Asturi et omnibus Quiritibus salutem
> plurimam dicit.
>
> Avete, omnes.
>
> Veniam peto. I appear to have missed a click in cut and paste from
> bookmarks to word processor. Here is the _real_ link to the "Roman
> Numismatic Gallery":
>
> http://www.romancoins.info/
>
> This site has some of the most detailed and beautiful Roman
> numismatic photography on the net with sections on imperial
> portraiture, countermarks, legionary stamps, military diplomas,
> military equipment, officials, provinces, buildings, animals, gods
> and mintmarks on Roman coins.
>
> And here's a link to the Roman material on i-numis.com:
>
> http://www.i-numis.com/rome/alphabet.html
>
> The i-numis.com site, created by JŽr™me Mairat (a specialist in
> Roman coins) and StŽphan Sombart (a specialist in French royal
> numismatics), provides online articles and books on numismatics,
> including classic antiquarian works and recent scholarship. The
> Greek- and Roman-related material is generally very good. The site
> is available in French and English.
>
> Valete, omnes.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

Two excellent suggestions, Gai Iuli. Thank you very much once again
:-).


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Cohors Consulis
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 23:17:46 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator Sulla.

Just one more comment...

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Sulla: Interesting, he has summoned the Senate twice and has
> summoned the Comitia once (for a runoff), where is this overburden
> of work? Last year when I was Consul I managed perfectly well with
> 1 Consular Quaestor, 1 Religious Advisor, 3 staff members. By this
> time last year every month (in which I had the fasces) had a
> comitia summons and nearly every month had a Senate summons as
> well. By this time last year about half of my laws were
> promulgated. So, I guess my question is, given my experience in
> being Consul (last year) what has changed between then and now to
> justify the huge staffing requirements?

You seem to imply that the number of laws and senatusconsulta issued
by a consul is the only way to measure a consul's effectiveness. I
must say that I do not agree with that concept: to me, the *quality*
of what is done is extremely important. And a consul has other duties
beyond issuing laws and edicts.

Besides that, I do remember how "constructive" your last consulship
was.

> Sulla: Yes, but one of the many ways to counter volunteer fatigue
> is to have leadership and to lead by example. To date that is
> seriously lacking. What exactly has Consul Caeso Fabius done to
> show that he has lead Nova Roma as Consul? Where are the laws that
> he stated in his campaign he would promulgate? All we are getting
> to date is teased and diddled by his staff members, and there is
> noting to prevent us from coming to the conclusion that they know
> more about what is going on than the Senior Consul who has remained
> silent throughout this entire exchange, in addition when he does
> seem to have the fasces he gets called away on trips.

The senior consul has remained silent throughout this entire exchange
because, as he has announced on this very same list, he is not at
home. Not everyone has all the time you devote to writing to this
mailing list, senator :-). As for leadership, I would say that
Quintillianus can barely be accused of lacking that, given that he
has convinced twenty-five people to devote their free time to Nova
Roma.

Perhaps you should wait until the senior consul returns from his trip
so that he can reply to your comments all by himself. I have always
thought that one should not speak about those who are not present to
defend themselves :-).

Bene valete in pace Deorum!

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Roman Coins Again
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 23:32:34 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gregory Rose" <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus Gn Salici Asturi salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, Gn. Salix.
>
> > You are right, amice. It is an excellent link. Even though you
> > had already shared it with us in your last message about Roman
> > coins ;-).
> >
> > No problem, my dear Gai Iuli. We all make mistakes sometimes
> > (good Gods! I thought I would *never* say that to C. Iulius
> > Scaurus!) :-).
>
> If my typographical skills were a measure of intelligence, you'd
> rightly take me for an imbecile. I am deeply grateful to the Gods
> that I'm in a line of work which doesn't require much manual
> dexterity, but, then, if I had been born in historical Rome, I'd
> likely have been exposed on a hillside shortly after birth or doomed
> to beggary, since I'm damned near blind without my glasses (and I
> don't have the artistic skills to try to follow Homer's career
> path).

I don't think that Cicero was too good juggling balls either, so you
don't have to worry :-). And Augustus spent most of his life sick...

> And this one is nothing compared to the time I glossed over an Old
> English typo ("hlafordscite" instead of the correct "hlafordscipe")
> in an overhead for a talk I was giving.

How could you...? I would never have made such a mistake! My
goodness! "Hlafordscite" instead of "hlafordscipe"... two words so
different! What were you thinking about?

I will forgive you this time. But the next time you make a
typographical error with a Northern Germanic dead language, consider
our friendship terminated.

;-).

> Someday we'll have a chat about why Vespasian didn't extend Latin
> rights to Asturia... :-).

Oh, that is very simple. He was afraid of us Spaniards. He knew that
if he granted us citizenship, we would control the Empire and we
would be so good that his own deeds would be all but forgotten. His
fears became a reality with Trajan and Hadrian :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] L. Cornelius' Unsubscription
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Thu, 15 May 2003 23:23:28 -0000