| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: On the Census, again. |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 00:32:40 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:
> Yep; agreed. However, the <G[rin]> doesn't change the validity (or
> otherwise) of the statement that immediately precedes it, either,
and -
> since it was humorous - I wanted to make a clarifying point about
it.
> Especially given that this statement had recently been tendered
> seriously, as if it was some sort of a disqualification.
Not a problem, I fully understand where you're coming from.
Q. Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Census Laws: A Comparison |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 01:32:27 -0000 |
|
G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
Salvete, Quirites.
I think it might be useful to do a point-by-point comparison of the
Leges Cornelia and Fabia de censo. I am not a member of the consular
cohors, and I don't see the Lex Fabia as repudiating the legacy of L.
Cornelius. Indeed, I don't think the Lex Fabia would be nearly so
good without the Lex Cornelia as an example. The Lex Fabia, in my
view, is an attempt to improve on the Lex Cornelia and accomplish the
task which both C. Fabius and L. Cornelius rightly see as an urgent
one for NR. Since the comparison quotes the text of both leges, it is
a bit long, but I hope that cives read it through, since it is
difficult to make an informed choice without examining both laws in
detail. The comparison follows below.
Valete.
G. Iulius Scaurus
COMPARISON OF LEGES CORNELIA AND FABIA DE CENSO
1. Occurrence and responsibility.
LEX CORNELIA: I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done
every 2 years. This would be the responsibility of the Censors.
LEX FABIA: I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done
every 2 years. This would be the responsibility of the Censors.
DIFFERENCE: None.
2. Duration and announcement.
LEX CORNELIA: II. The Nova Roma Census will last for a period of 8
weeks, and must be completed by the Ides of September. The start and
end of the census period will be announced by the Censors on the NR
website, official lists, and in the major forums. The official lists
are currently located at nova-roma@yahoogroups.com and
NovaRoma-Announce@yahoo.com. Notification must also be published on
the Nova Roma Message board.
LEX FABIA: II. The Nova Roma Census will last for a period of 16
weeks, and must be completed by the "Pridie Kal. Novembris" (the 31st
of October). The start and end of the Census period will be announced
by the Censors on the NR website, official lists, and in the major
forums. The official lists are currently located at
nova-roma@yahoogroups.com and NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com.
Notification must also be published on the Nova Roma Message board.
The Censors shall also ask the Governors to announce the Census period
on the provincial level.
DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia increases census period from 8 to 16 weeks,
ending it on Pridie Kal. Novembris rather than the Ides of September,
and asks governor to announce the census on the provincia level. The
longer census period allows for quicker detection and resolution of
potential problems in the census.
3. Criteria for active citizenship.
LEX CORNELIA: A. Active citizens are those citizens that do not need
to be contacted by the Censors to determine if they are apart of Nova
Roma:
1. Those citizens who voted in the main election (in December) shall
be considered "censi."
2. Those citizens who have paid taxes for the current calendar year
shall be considered "censi".
3. Paterfamiliae who have successfully responded to the yearly
registration of the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum
Agendis shall be considered ÒcensiÓ.
4. Persons who became citizens during the current calendar year shall
be considered "censi".
LEX FABIA: Those who meet any of the following criteria will still be
considered citizens:
1. Those who voted in the main election (in November and/or December).
2. Those who have paid taxes for the current calendar year.
3. Patres Familias who have successfully responded to the yearly
registration of the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis.
4. Persons who became citizens during the current calendar year.
5. Persons who are successfully contacted as described in section IV.
DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia explicitly recognises persons successfully
contacted by the census as active citizens.
4. Criterion for inactive citizenship:
LEX CORNELIA: IV. Inactive citizens are those citizens who fail to
meet at least one of the conditions in IV A. The following will lay
down some of the procedures to contact inactive citizens. Inactive
citizens are those citizens who will need to be contacted by the
National Census.
LEX FABIA: IV. "Inactive" citizens are those who fail to meet at least
one of the conditions in III. The following will lay down some of the
procedures to contact inactive citizens. Inactive citizens are those
who will need to be contacted by the National Census.
DIFFERENCE: None.
5. First means of census contact.
LEX CORNELIA: A. Bulk Email. At least two attempts should be done to
contact citizen via this avenue.
LEX FABIA: A. Bulk Email. At least two attempts should be done to
contact citizen via this avenue.
DIFFERENCE: None.
6. Second means of contact.
LEX CORNELIA: B. Individual email. If a Citizen email bounces back as
invalid from the bulk email, the Censors shall send them an individual
email to verify there was not a problem with an email service filter.
LEX FABIA: B. Surface mail. "Inactive" Citizens who are unreachable
by email shall receive a mailing. This shall be done on the provincial
level by Governors and legati under the supervision of the Censors. In
those Provinciae where there are not a Governor and in those areas not
included in a Provincia yet the Censors shall ask a Governor of a
Provincia as near as possible to where that "inactive" Citizen lives.
If this is not possible it shall be done by the Censors. Surface mail
information should be forwarded to whatever official Nova Roman
address that is specified by the Censors. Surface mail information
must reach the Censors before the Pridie Kal. Novembris (the 31st of
October). The Current Official address of all Nova Roman Mail
correspondence is: Nova Roma, P.O. Box 1897 Wells, ME 04090. At the
time of the passage of this lex, the above address is the official
address; if the official address changes in the future, the new
address should be utilized.
DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia eliminates individual email as a screening
method (bounces are more likely to arise from defunct addresses than
email filters) and introduces surface mail as second means of contact
with provincial administration participating in this step. This
decentralises the labour burden of surface mailing.
7. Third means of contact.
LEX CORNELIA: C. Phone calls. If a Citizen is unreachable due to an
invalid email address, the Censors shall attempt to contact them by
phone. This may be done on the Provincial level under the direction of
the Censors if possible.
LEX FABIA: C. Phone calls. If a Citizen is unreachable by e-mail or
surface mail, he/she shall be contacted by phone. This shall be done
on the provincial level by Governors and legati under the supervision
of the Censors. In those Provinciae where there is not a Governor and
in and it can be done by the Governor of a Provincia as near as
possible to where the "inactive" Citizen lives upon request of the
Censors, or by a Censors themself.
DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia stresses that phone contact should take place
primarily on the provincial level, where the call is likely to be less
expensive.
8. Census advertising banner.
LEX CORNELIA: E. A temporary banner and link will be put on the main
NR website for the duration of the Census, where individual citizens
may input their information to comply with the Census.
LEX FABIA: D. A temporary banner and link will be put on the main Nova
Roma website for the duration of the Census, where individual citizens
may input their information to comply with the Census. Further, the
Censors shall recommend such a banner and link to be put on any other
Nova Roman website (Provinces, Magistrates, Sodalitates)
DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia extends the number of NR sites where the census
is advertised.
7. Central database.
LEX CORNELIA: V. All communicated information pertaining to the Census
shall be noted in a database on the Nova Roma Website, the address of
which will be specified by the Censores at the beginning of the
Registration Period. Citizen information may be inputted into this
database by the Censores, their appointed assistants, or by the
individual citizens.
LEX FABIA: V. All communicated information pertaining to the Census
shall be noted in a database on the Nova Roma Website, the address of
which will be specified by the Censores at the beginning of the
Registration Period. Citizen information may be entered into this
database by the Censores, their appointed assistants, or by the
individual citizens.
DIFFERENCE: None.
8. Deadline for posting names of those who have failed to respond.
LEX CORNELIA: VI. By the Ides of August, the Censors should post a
list to the official email list of Nova Roma displaying the names of
those citizens who have failed to respond.
LEX FABIA: VI. By the "Pridie Kal. Septembris" (the 30st of
September)., the Censors should post a list to the official email
lists of Nova Roma displaying the names of those citizens who have
failed to respond.
DIFFERENCE: Lex Fabia extends deadline for posting names of those who
have failed to respond.
9. Expulsion of non-responders.
LEX CORNELIA: VII. If a citizen fails to respond to the contact
attempts, that person will no longer be considered a citizen of Nova
Roma. His name will be stricken from the Album Civium and if he/she is
a Pater/Mater, the Censors will abide by the Constitution, any laws,
and any Censorial edict if the appointment of a paterfamilias is
necessary. However, the Censors have the discretion to waive this
clause if both Censors feel there are legitimate reasons for the
citizen to remain incommunicado.
LEX FABIA: VII. If a citizen fails to respond to the contact attempts,
that person will be considered a "Socius" (Ally), but not a citizen.
If he/she is a Pater/Mater Familias, he/she immediately lose this
position and the Censors will abide by the Constitution, any laws, and
any Censorial edict if the appointment of a Pater Familias is
necessary. However, the Censors have the discretion to waive this
clause if both Censors feel there are legitimate reasons for the
citizen to remain incommunicado.
DIFFERENCE: Lex Cornelia severs relationship between non-responders
and NR; Lex Fabia classifies non-responders as socii and permits them
to return and resume their Roman names at a later time.
10. Unavailability exemption.
LEX CORNELIA: VIII. If a citizen who knows of an extended period of
unavailability that will coincide with the census, he may contact the
censors up to 3 months before the census is to begin to inform them of
his active status and his desire to be counted in the census. Such
contact will be considered by the censors as having fulfilled the
citizen's duty to reply during the census period. Proxies are not
permitted during the National Census effort.
LEX FABIA: VIII. If a citizen knows of an extended period of
unavailability that will coincide with the census, he may contact the
Censors up to 3 months before the census is to begin to inform them of
his active status and his desire to be counted in the census. Such
contact will be considered by the Censors as having fulfilled the
citizen's duty to reply during the census period. Proxies are not
permitted during the National Census effort.
DIFFERENCE: None.
11. Appeal of expulsion for census non-response.
LEX CORNELIA: IX. A former citizen may appeal to the Senate to have
his removal from the Album Civium reconsidered. Such an appeal must be
filed with the consuls within 90 days of the former citizens removal
from the Album Civium. A 2/3rds vote of the Senate is needed to
overturn the decision of the censors.
LEX FABIA: IX. At any time, a Socius may contact the Censores and ask
to regain his/her Citizenship, which will then be granted unless there
are compelling reasons otherwise.
DIFFERENCE: Since the Lex Fabia expels no one from NR, it does not
involve an appeal to the Senate, and return to active status from
socius is handled by the Censores.
12. Indication of status in the Album Civium.
LEX CORNELIA: VII. If a citizen fails to respond to the contact
attempts, that person will no longer be considered a citizen of Nova
Roma. His name will be stricken from the Album Civium...
LEX FABIA: X. In the Album Civium it shall be clearly indicated
whether an individual is a Civis (citizen) or a Socius.
DIFFERENCE: The difference is a consequence of the Lex Fabia expelling
no one from NR as a result of census non-response.
13. Reimbursal of magistrates for census expenses.
LEX CORNELIA: No explicit provision for method; reimbursal is implied
in a subsequent section.
LEX FABIA: XI. At the end of the National Census Postage or Telephone
expenses incurred by the magistrate will be reimbursed by either a
monetary payment or a tax credit. All such payments or credits are
done in exchange for reciepts, reciept copies and bills (if reciepts
are not possible to get) and must be approved by the Senate. It will
be up to the Censors to choose which of these two methods to follow to
compensate the other involved magistrates, according to criteria of
saving. Further it will be up to the Senate to authorize payout. It
shall be up to the Senate to choose which of these two methods to
follow to compensate the Censors, according to criteria of saving.
DIFFERENCE: The Lex Fabia outlines precisely the procedure for
reimbursal of documented expenses associated with the census.
14. Budget for census.
LEX CORNELIA: X. A budget is to be provided for the Censors' Office to
offset costs for conducting the census. This budget is to be included
only for the years that a Census takes place. The amount to be set
aside would be established by the Senate of Nova Roma.
LEX FABIA: XII. A budget shall be allocated by the Senate to meet
expenses to compensate magistrates involved in the Census.
DIFFERENCE: The Lex Fabia allows budgeting for reimbursal to
provincial magistrates as well as the Censores' office, since it
actively involves provincial magistrates in conducting the census.
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Contra New Census Law |
| From: |
"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 03:06:52 -0000 |
|
Salvete cives,
Having read the discussions back and forth and especially G. Iulius
Scarus' most useful point by point comparison and Q. Cassius Calvus'
cost comparison, I have decided to vote against this law and
encourage all Nova Romans to do the same.
As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be about
the same so it is not a matter of saving money, though the matter of
reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law. The extant law
doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the new proposal
specifies an unfair solution. Those involved with the census would be
paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax credit for the
following year. Which one the censors and not the person assisting in
carrying out the census would decide. This should be the choice of
the individual performing the tasks, not the censors. Frankly, I
think the only option should be direct reimbursement and not a
delayed tax credit. "Sure, we'll repay your expenses--eventually."
That attitude doesn't speak well for us though I admit it is a minor
issue.
Decimus Iunius Silanus recently commented on the workload this would
create for the governors and their staffs and I encourage you to
reread his comments.
The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR. However, the more
I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our main
problem: inactive citizens. It essentially will say: "Of 1700 people
who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not bother to
reply to our census, vote or pay taxes." (based on the estimated high
number of 400 active citizens which is probably closer to 300-350) It
will advertise our main weakness, thus will not be a good recruiting
tool. Either these people should be removed from the rolls of
citizens as the current census law calls for or they should remain in
the head count.
For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this law.
I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
was ignored last year. Why would this one not be ignored also? They
will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?
A general comment from long observation (and I hate to say it) there
is a tendency in Nova Roma to try different solutions and pass
different laws or senatus consulta on the same issue before allowing
the original programs to work so the flaws in the system can be
discovered. Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or
perhaps it is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there
often is a desire to turn the system upside down every year. There is
much uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
revisit old ground. Let's allow the original census law to be carried
out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.
Valete,
Decius Iunius Palladius, Senator
(Praetor)
[-note, just for the record, this post is a personal opinion, not an
official praetorian position.]
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: On the Census, again. |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 03:22:22 -0000 |
|
G. Iulius Scaurus Q. Cassio Calvo salutem dicit.
Salve, Q. Cassi.
> Actually, I don't remember seeing a cost/benefit analysis posted to
> show that one is cheaper than the other.
I think that the chief way in which the Lex Fabia will reduce costs is
by shifting phone contact for the census more locally to the provinces
and regions. It also reduces the unpaid, but no less real, labour
costs of the Lex Cornelia's individual email procedure.
One factor of which neither the Lex Cornelia nor the Lex Fabia takes
account is the use of postcards for the surface mail contact phase.
If the surface mail contact is done in the US (I think this is also
true of the rest of the rest of the world, but I don't have the
precise numbers) by a postcard which bears the relevant email and
postal addresses for the inactive citizen to contact for the census
rather than a letter and envelope, the postage cost is reduced by
37.84%, $.27 for a postcard versus $.37 for a first class letter (bulk
mail rates are less expensive than first class, but not less than
those for a postcard, and bulk mail would involve rather more unpaid
labour costs in sorting and packaging at the provincial level ).
Cardstock is less expensive than envelopes and 8.5x11 paper and
entails far less in unpaid labour costs in folding and stuffing. A
.pdf file with the information to be printed on the cards could be
posted to the main website and download and computer-printed locally
in the provinces on cardstock. Regardless of the law under which the
census takes place, I strongly urge the Censores to adopt the use of
postcards for the surface mail phase of census contact.
Vale.
G. Iulius Scaurus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Contra New Census Law |
| From: |
Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 00:32:02 -0400 |
|
Salvete, omnes -
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 03:06:52AM -0000, deciusiunius wrote:
>
> The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
> this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR. However, the more
> I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our main
> problem: inactive citizens. It essentially will say: "Of 1700 people
> who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not bother to
> reply to our census, vote or pay taxes." (based on the estimated high
> number of 400 active citizens which is probably closer to 300-350) It
> will advertise our main weakness, thus will not be a good recruiting
> tool. Either these people should be removed from the rolls of
> citizens as the current census law calls for or they should remain in
> the head count.
As a contrasting perspective, I would find the last option deceptive and
unworthy of Nova Roma. If these inactive citizens are admitted to be a
weakness - a viewpoint I do not share - then it is far better to be
honest about it than to pretend otherwise.
Misleading prospective citizens is something that I would find
reprehensible. 1700 is no more impressive to me that is 400 - and
neither number is particularly important. Anyone who decides not to join
NR because our numbers don't meet some hypothetical magic mark is
looking for quantity over quality, and would be better served by joining
the Million Man March.
> For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this law.
> I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
> was ignored last year. Why would this one not be ignored also? They
> will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?
As G. Iulius Scaurus' post showed, the expenses under the new census law
will be lower since they would be done at the local level. There's no
basis fo claiming that they will be "about the same" without any numbers
to support a conclusion; in fact, the only real conclusion that can be
drawn from available data is that it _will_ cost less, since local calls
and local mail cost less - in most cases, significantly less - than
their long-distance equivalents.
> A general comment from long observation (and I hate to say it) there
> is a tendency in Nova Roma to try different solutions and pass
> different laws or senatus consulta on the same issue before allowing
> the original programs to work so the flaws in the system can be
> discovered. Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or
> perhaps it is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there
> often is a desire to turn the system upside down every year. There is
> much uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
> revisit old ground. Let's allow the original census law to be carried
> out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.
A poor law that is already on the books is still a poor law. This new
law is not an addition to our system, but an improvement which would
replace an existing one - at no cost. Since the old law was never
implemented, there's no cost of change involved, either - the only
effect of the proposed change is a positive one. As well, I believe that
lessening and distributing the expenses of the census makes it more apt
to be implemented - the current law divides the expenditure among a very
small number, and their hesitation to spend a large amount is fully
understandable, whereas a more distributed solution, especially one that
only involves local communications, is far more likely to actually
happen.
I urge those who want a less expensive, more effective, and more honest
census to vote FOR the Lex Fabia de Censo.
Valete,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nihil tam munitum quod non expugnari pecunia possit.
No fort is so strong that it cannot be taken with money.
-- Cicero, "In Verrem"
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] A Classics "Bibliographie d'orientation" |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 06:03:44 -0000 |
|
G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
Avete, Quirites.
Here's a link to a splendid bibliography of classical studies, the
"Bibliographie d'orientation":
http://www.fusl.ac.be/Files/General/BCS/BOPlan.html
The "Bibliographie d'orientation" is part of the "Bibliotheca Classica
Selecta," a project organised by two Belgian professors, John Marries
Hannick (UniversitŽ de Louvain-la-Neuve ) and Jacques Poucet
(UniversitŽ de Louvain-la-Neuve and FacultŽs universitaires
Saint-Louis, Bruxelles), as a bibliographic introduction to classical
studies. To call this bibliography "introductory" is an act of great
humility by its compilers, since its depth as well as breadth is
considerable and its only weaknesses are the understandable decision
not to include journal articles (compilation of a comparable
bibliography of the journal literature would probably be a lifework)
and the exclusion of older works (references to which, the compilers
indicate, can found in the bibliographies of the works cited therein).
While the text is in French, the works cited range through the best
scholarship in most of the western European languages.
Valete, Quirites.
G. Iulius Scaurus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] PLEASE VOTE IN THE COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA FOR THE LEX FABIA DE CENSO |
| From: |
"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 08:27:58 -0000 |
|
Salvete
> This new Census law will lead to a cheaper Census,
With respect consul, cheaper is a relative word :-)
Valete
Decimus Iunius Silanus
A Governor who may soon be press-ganged into conducting a mass mail out in
his province <G>
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Contra New Census Law |
| From: |
"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 08:37:41 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, D. Iuni.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
<<snipped>>
> As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be
> about the same so it is not a matter of saving money, though the
> matter of reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law.
I also read this statement by Cassius Calvus, but I have yet to find
any rationale behind it.
I am sure that you all understand that international snail mail and
phone calls are far more expensive than local ones; I guess that
doing those things on a local level necessarily has to reduce the
expense.
> The extant law doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the
> new proposal specifies an unfair solution. Those involved with the
> census would be paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax
> credit for the following year. Which one the censors and not the
> person assisting in carrying out the census would decide. This
> should be the choice of the individual performing the tasks, not
> the censors. Frankly, I think the only option should be direct
> reimbursement and not a delayed tax credit. "Sure, we'll repay your
> expenses--eventually." That attitude doesn't speak well for us
> though I admit it is a minor issue.
Given that, as you have pointed out, our current law does not speak
about reimbursement, things are even worse now :-).
> Decimus Iunius Silanus recently commented on the workload this
> would create for the governors and their staffs and I encourage you
> to reread his comments.
I see this task as an opportunity to actually kick our provincial
administrations back into action. This clear goal might put them in
motion again and encourage them to move beyond this census in the
service of our citizenry. It is not an excessive workload but
inactivity the ailment that afflicts many of our current provincial
governments.
> The main issue is the so-called socii. At first I was intrigued by
> this idea, as it would facilitate reentry into NR. However, the
> more I thought about it I realized it really would highlight our
> main problem: inactive citizens. It essentially will say: "Of 1700
> people who joined NR, 1300 are now socii, people who could not
> bother to reply to our census, vote or pay taxes." (based on the
> estimated high number of 400 active citizens which is probably
> closer to 300-350) It will advertise our main weakness, thus will
> not be a good recruiting tool. Either these people should be
> removed from the rolls of citizens as the current census law calls
> for or they should remain in the head count.
I have always supported "inclusion" rather than "exclusion". I think
that the idea of the socii allows us to dimensionate our services to
a known number of citiznes while keeping a potential number of people
as citizens-to-be in the future. It is a good solution, in my
opinion.
> For the socii issue alone I would recommend voting against this
> law.
> I would also recommend against it because we have a census law that
> was ignored last year. Why would this one not be ignored also? They
> will cost about the same so why will this one be carried out?
This will be less expensive. And last year we had different consules
and a different censor.
> A general comment from long observation (and I hate to say it)
> there is a tendency in Nova Roma to try different solutions and
> pass different laws or senatus consulta on the same issue before
> allowing the original programs to work so the flaws in the system
> can be discovered.
> Perhaps this comes from our brief five-year existence or perhaps it
> is a flaw in electing annual magistrates, because there often is a
> desire to turn the system upside down every year. There is much
> uncharted territory for legislation and work without having to
> revisit old ground. Let's allow the original census law to be
> carried out and then see what needs to be changed after the census.
As you have pointed out, the current law was allowed an opportunity.
No census was conducted last year *because* of the way in which that
law was written, and not *even if* that law was written. So our
current law *failed* to produce the desired results. We need a new
law.
> [-note, just for the record, this post is a personal opinion, not
> an official praetorian position.]
Ditto :-).
CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: A Classics "Bibliographie d'orientation" |
| From: |
"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 09:05:54 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, Gai Iuli.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to a splendid bibliography of classical studies, the
> "Bibliographie d'orientation":
>
> http://www.fusl.ac.be/Files/General/BCS/BOPlan.html
>
> The "Bibliographie d'orientation" is part of the "Bibliotheca
> Classica Selecta," a project organised by two Belgian professors,
> John Marries Hannick (Université de Louvain-la-Neuve ) and Jacques
> Poucet (Université de Louvain-la-Neuve and Facultés universitaires
> Saint-Louis, Bruxelles), as a bibliographic introduction to
> classical studies. To call this bibliography "introductory" is an
> act of great humility by its compilers, since its depth as well as
> breadth is considerable and its only weaknesses are the
> understandable decision not to include journal articles
> (compilation of a comparable bibliography of the journal literature
> would probably be a lifework) and the exclusion of older works
> (references to which, the compilers indicate, can found in the
> bibliographies of the works cited therein).
> While the text is in French, the works cited range through the best
> scholarship in most of the western European languages.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
Thank you very much for this suggestion, Gai Iuli.
Although I am just an amateur scholar, there is a point where you
start thinking "I would need to know where to look for more
information on this subject". This bibliography comes to fill in the
void.
CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Enquiry about Roman sites near Bardolino |
| From: |
"Christine Schofield" <aureliana@tiscali.co.uk> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 09:37:19 +0100 |
|
Salvete C Flavius Diocletianus and M Iulius Perusianus.
Thank you for the information.
I am really looking forward to my visit and hope to take full advantage
of the site seeing and wine tasting.
Valete
Gaia Flavia Aureliana
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 275 - Release Date: 06/05/2003
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Contra New Census Law |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 11:50:50 +0200 |
|
Salve Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius et Salvete Quirites!
>Having read the discussions back and forth and especially G. Iulius
>Scarus' most useful point by point comparison and Q. Cassius Calvus'
>cost comparison, I have decided to vote against this law and
>encourage all Nova Romans to do the same.
Honorable Q. Cassius Calvus clearly hasn't understood the costs
advantages of Lex Fabia de Censo. I will point out these advantage
below,
>As Calvus rightly points out, the costs under both laws will be about
>the same so it is not a matter of saving money,
This is wrong!
>though the matter of
>reimbursements are an problem with the proposed law. The extant law
>doesn't address reimbursements, it is true but the new proposal
>specifies an unfair solution.
It isn't a question of being unfair. This way of compensating
Census-assistants will be CHEAPER if used in regard to assistants in
Europe, South America, Asia, Africa and Australia.
You see it will cost money to send money to these contiinents from
our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
solution to this.
How much cheaper it will be it is hard to say (especially as I don't
know the exact costs to send money from North America) but the
formula would be somnething like: the number of non-North Amercan
citizens times the cost to send money from North Ameriuca to the
other continents.
If the cost of safe sending of reimbursement to each assistant
outside of North America would be as low as $5 and the assistants
would be as few as 26 which is too low according to my view, then the
costs according to Lex Cornelia would be at least $130 more than Lex
Fabia. That is Lex Fabia is cheaper and could well be _much_ cheaper
with other figures!
I have assumed that the Censors according to Lex Cornelia would need
at least one assistant per one-country Provinciae and one per country
in the multi-country Provinciae, added to that I have just added four
assistants for Africa and Asia.
If You add the international phone required by Lex Cornelia, but
possibly lowered by calling from neigbouring contries as in Lex
Fabia, once again Lex Fabia will be cheaper. It is hard to calculate
how much cheaper this would make Lex Fabia though.
>Those involved with the census would be
>paid back by direct reimbursement or by a tax credit for the
>following year. Which one the censors and not the person assisting in
>carrying out the census would decide. This should be the choice of
>the individual performing the tasks, not the censors.
As You see above You have made the wrong assumption, the tax credit
isn't constructed to be fair for individuals, but it is constructed
to be cheaper for Nova Roma.
>Frankly, I
>think the only option should be direct reimbursement and not a
>delayed tax credit.
As I have shown above that would be much more expensive.
>"Sure, we'll repay your expenses--eventually."
>That attitude doesn't speak well for us though I admit it is a minor
>issue.
I hope that You now see that this isn't the purpose of this tax credit idea.
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Roman Market Day, Sept. 13-14, Maine |
| From: |
Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 09:24:40 -0400 |
|
I'm pleased to announce that we've finalized plans for Roman Market Day
2003!
Since we exceeded the capacity of last year's site, we have moved to an
equestrian park in Hollis, Maine, about 15 minutes from Saco or
Kennebunk. Because it's already horse-friendly, we may even be able to
enlist some horses and their people to demonstrate Roman horse kit! As
usual, we'll have gladiators, exhibits, demonstrations and food.
We're looking for a few volunteers, all of whom would of course receive
free admission and probably food:
-- Military re-enactors: We would love to have as many people as
possible in kit to help illustrate the life of a Roman soldier.
-- Costumed civilians (men, women and children), to appear in a
presentation on Roman social life and clothing.
-- Staff for the Nova Roma table, handing out information about the
organization and selling NR products such as bumper stickers and
T-shirts.
-- And the ever-popular jobs of helping with parking and trash!
Full details are at http://www.romanmarketday.com. We'd love to see as
many Nova Romans as possible! E-mail me at pcassia@novaroma.org if
you'd like to help.
If you'd like to sell Roman-related wares at Roman Market Day, e-mail
our vendor coordinators, Laurentius Cassius and Varia Cassia (Lawrence
and Julie Brooks) at lawrensnest@hotmail.com.
We look forward to seeing you there!
-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Attention Voters! Invalid Voter Code |
| From: |
"aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 15:54:31 -0000 |
|
The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:
#818
Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339
Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org
Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Attention Voters! Invalid Voter Code |
| From: |
"aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 15:58:45 -0000 |
|
The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:
#819
Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339
Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org
Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] An actual cost analysis of the Census Cornelian Vs. Fabian |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 16:24:24 -0000 |
|
Salve,
Contrary to what some may presume, I understand the costs very well.
Under the Fabian plan to utilize the provincial governors the initial
costs of postage is lower but then when one adds in the costs of
international money transfer to reimburse the governors it jumps
dramatically. For instance in Vendia if 10 people require letters
the cost after monetary conversion from Polish Zltoys to US$ is $4.90
cents vs. $8.00 to send those same letters from the United States.
Great you just saved almost 50%. However to send that $4.90
reimbursement to Poland from Nova Roma's treasury it costs on average
$15.00 or 3 times the amount being reimbursed! The cheapest form of
international money order I could find is from the United States Post
Office ($3.25), but there is a catch, there is absolutelty not a
single country in Europe that accepts them!
But we'll make it up in phone costs, right. Wrong for it costs ten
cents a minute to call Poland from the US, 10 one minute phone calls
is a $1.00
Here are the real numbers folks:
PROVINCE %50 POP POSTAGE FROM USA in US$ POSTAGE IN
COUNTRY in US$ CORNELIA COST FABIA COST in US$ Money
Transfer Costs under FABIA NOTES
Britannia 41 $0.80 $0.46 $32.80 $18.86 $15.00
British Pound
Gallia 35 $0.80 $0.58 $28.00 $20.30 $15.00 Euro
Germania 34 $0.80 $0.65 $27.20 $22.10 $15.00
Euro
Hispania 61 $0.80 $0.31 $48.80 $18.91 $15.00
Euro
Italia 82 $0.80 $0.73 $65.60 $59.86 $15.00 Euro
Pannonia 14 $0.80 $0.28 $11.20 $3.92 $15.00
Slovakian Koruny
Samatia 3 $0.80 $2.40 $2.40 No
Gov.
Thule 19 $0.80 $0.64 $15.20 $12.16 $15.00 SE
Krona
Vendia 10 $0.80 $0.49 $8.00 $4.90 $15.00 Zloty
$239.20 $163.41 $120.00
The Lex Cornelia assuming everything based out of the USA would cost
$239.00 in postage to reach %50 of the citizens in Europe. It would
cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the provinces, but cost
$120.00 in international money transfer fees to reimburse the
governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone.
I got my world wide postage rates from
http://www.atms.ch/rates/index.php
I used http://www.xe.com/ucc/ for the currency conversion
I'm posting my spreadsheet to the ML's files so people can take a
better look at the numbers for Europe alone. If this is saving Nova
Roma money, I don't think Nova Roma can afford much more "savings."
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] New file uploaded to Nova-Roma |
| From: |
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com |
| Date: |
25 May 2003 16:25:16 -0000 |
|
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.
File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
Description : Excel Spreadsheet showing actual cost of Census Cornelian Vs. Fabian
You can access this file at the URL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 13:39:34 -0400 |
|
Salve Romans
.."You see it will cost money to send money to these continents from
our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
solution to this."....
...It would cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the provinces, but cost $120.00 in international money transfer fees to reimburse the
governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone....
These two passages from posts on the census law brings up another point I have been thinking about for some time.
Hold on to you hat or take a seat this is REALLY BIG.
I think the Nova Roma needs......
A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!
I know , I know such a revolutionary idea (:0)
We need two permanent, Senate appointed, not elected Quaestors or at least two elected ones with longer terms of office and each would be in charge of one of the two bank accounts and yes the two permanent Quaestors would need to be bonded.
May be a " Proquaestor" like a Proconsul. Just a thought
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] tax lament |
| From: |
Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius <romalist2@yahoo.ca> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 10:14:38 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete Omnes
This is just a quick note to tell the world that I
paid my taxes late (early May) and they seem to have
been lost in the mail for I have not received a
message of their receipt. I'll be checking with the
post office to see if they can't track it down, but
hopes are low. Let it not be said, then, that I am
inactive - just shafted by the mail system.
Valete!
=====
Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 21:54:31 +0200 |
|
Salve Curator!
>Salve Romans
>
>
>.."You see it will cost money to send money to these continents from
>our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
>solution to this."....
>
>
>...It would cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the
>provinces, but cost $120.00 in international money transfer fees to
>reimburse the
>governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
>than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone....
How many times must I say that it is the other way around? According
to Lex Cornelia the Censors must organise the Census and there is no
provincial Census organisation. Of course theCensors could build a
special Census organisation, but the compensation must be payed from
the central Treasury that is located in USA. This mean that Lex
Cornelia will be more expensive as it has to use international money
orders!
As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
I find it astonishing that You try to tell me, a Propraetor, about
the costs for international money orders. I have together with other
Governors tried to adjust the tax rules to accomodate to these facts
for many years.
Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have misread
the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
am sure that You don't want to lie.
>These two passages from posts on the census law brings up another
>point I have been thinking about for some time.
>
>Hold on to you hat or take a seat this is REALLY BIG.
>
>
>I think the Nova Roma needs......
>
>A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!
>
>I know , I know such a revolutionary idea (:0)
>
>We need two permanent, Senate appointed, not elected Quaestors or
>at least two elected ones with longer terms of office and each would
>be in charge of one of the two bank accounts and yes the two
>permanent Quaestors would need to be bonded.
>
>May be a " Proquaestor" like a Proconsul. Just a thought
Interesting idea. I am not sure that your proposal is what we need,
but I am sure You have pointed out an interesting problem. But, still
Europe isn't the USE (United States of Europe), it may still be hard
to transfer money from one country to another. So itis abit more
complecated. Still it is worth looking into.
>Vale
>
>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] LEX FABIA IS CHEAPER THAN LEX CORNELIA! THE FIGURES ARE BUILT ON |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 23:09:32 +0200 |
|
Salvete Qurites et Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
>Salve,
>
>Contrary to what some may presume, I understand the costs very well.
>Under the Fabian plan to utilize the provincial governors the initial
>costs of postage is lower but then when one adds in the costs of
>international money transfer to reimburse the governors it jumps
>dramatically.
You are right about the advantages of Lex Fabia, but You show clearly
that You haven't understood Lex Fabia de Censo when it, for example,
comes to reimbursements. It is exactly because of the problems
mentioned above, that there is a provision to allow Governors and
Legati in Europe, South America, Africa, Asia and Australia to be
compensated by using tax credits. Re-read the proposal!
> For instance in Vendia if 10 people require letters
>the cost after monetary conversion from Polish Zltoys to US$ is $4.90
>cents vs. $8.00 to send those same letters from the United States.
>Great you just saved almost 50%. However to send that $4.90
>reimbursement to Poland from Nova Roma's treasury it costs on average
>$15.00 or 3 times the amount being reimbursed! The cheapest form of
>international money order I could find is from the United States Post
>Office ($3.25), but there is a catch, there is absolutelty not a
>single country in Europe that accepts them!
Lex Cornelia have _no_ stated method to make any cheap reimbursements
of the Census-assistants outside North America, and tax credits are
_not_ allowed according in Lex Cornelia.
It is Lex Cornelia that is full of problems and that has no solution
to these problems. This is why I have re-written most of it. Lex
Cornelia is a badly written law.
>But we'll make it up in phone costs, right. Wrong for it costs ten
>cents a minute to call Poland from the US, 10 one minute phone calls
>is a $1.00
Once again You seem not to have read the laws.
In Lex Fabia it is OPTIONAL to make international calls to Provinciae
that have no Governors and "those areas not included in a Provincia
yet", there is also a provision to use Governors from neighbouring
countries.
In Lex Cornelia there is no provisions for solving the problem with
Provinciae without Governors and "those areas not included in a
Provincia yet".
All other phone calls should be done within the Provinciae or
Regiones (Legati) according to Lex Fabia.
You have got it all wrong! Your number doesn't apply to Lex Fabia,
but rather to Lex Cornelia!
>
>Here are the real numbers folks:
>
>PROVINCE %50 POP POSTAGE FROM USA in US$ POSTAGE IN
>COUNTRY in US$ CORNELIA COST FABIA COST in US$ Money
>Transfer Costs under FABIA NOTES
>Britannia 41 $0.80 $0.46 $32.80 $18.86 $15.00
> British Pound
>Gallia 35 $0.80 $0.58 $28.00 $20.30 $15.00 Euro
>Germania 34 $0.80 $0.65 $27.20 $22.10 $15.00
> Euro
>Hispania 61 $0.80 $0.31 $48.80 $18.91 $15.00
> Euro
>Italia 82 $0.80 $0.73 $65.60 $59.86 $15.00 Euro
>Pannonia 14 $0.80 $0.28 $11.20 $3.92 $15.00
> Slovakian Koruny
>Samatia 3 $0.80 $2.40 $2.40 No
>Gov.
>Thule 19 $0.80 $0.64 $15.20 $12.16 $15.00 SE
>Krona
>Vendia 10 $0.80 $0.49 $8.00 $4.90 $15.00 Zloty
> $239.20 $163.41 $120.00
>
>The Lex Cornelia assuming everything based out of the USA would cost
>$239.00 in postage to reach %50 of the citizens in Europe. It would
>cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the provinces, but cost
>$120.00 in international money transfer fees to reimburse the
>governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
>than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone.
Wrong again! Stop spreading these false statements!
>I got my world wide postage rates from
>http://www.atms.ch/rates/index.php
>
>I used http://www.xe.com/ucc/ for the currency conversion
>
>I'm posting my spreadsheet to the ML's files so people can take a
>better look at the numbers for Europe alone. If this is saving Nova
>Roma money, I don't think Nova Roma can afford much more "savings."
You have misunderstood the whole business, so I hope You will correct
your statements and numbers!
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 21:15:23 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Salve Honorable Consul,
Pardon my snippage.
> As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
> transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
>
> Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have
misread
> the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
> am sure that You don't want to lie.
Thank you. I did re-read, and re-read, and re-read again at your
suggestion the tax credit section. I thought the clause "It shall be
up to the Senate to choose which of these two methods to
follow to compensate the Censors, according to criteria of saving."
Meant >>>only<<<< the Censors and their direct staff were eligible to
receive the tax credit for their expenses. This is because the very
next statement is: "XII. A budget shall be allocated by the Senate to
meet expenses to compensate magistrates involved in the Census."
Which I took to mean that the provincial governors that incurred
expenses in the process of the Census were to be compensated in kind
not tax credit since section XII doesn't include tax credits in the
wording. Of course the Senate has to approve the tax credits as your
law states, but I don't think anyone in the Senate would be foolish
enough to rather pay an extra $120 or so in international fund
transfer fees rather than extend the tax credits!
I would have worded it a little different, but now that you have
finally got it knocked into my thick head that all the magistrates
involved are eligible for the tax credit I can clearly see where Nova
Roma saves money in the long run.
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: LEX FABIA IS CHEAPER THAN LEX CORNELIA! THE FIGURES ARE BUILT ON A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE FACTS! |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 21:24:28 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> You are right about the advantages of Lex Fabia, but You show
clearly
> that You haven't understood Lex Fabia de Censo when it, for
example,
> comes to reimbursements.
Salve Honorable Consul,
Please read my reply about this in my posting
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/10788
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 23:37:59 +0200 |
|
Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
>Salve Honorable Consul,
>
>Pardon my snippage.
>
>> As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
>> transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
>>
>
>
>> Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have
>misread
>> the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
>> am sure that You don't want to lie.
>
>Thank you. I did re-read, and re-read, and re-read again at your
>suggestion the tax credit section. I thought the clause "It shall be
>up to the Senate to choose which of these two methods to
>follow to compensate the Censors, according to criteria of saving."
>Meant >>>only<<<< the Censors and their direct staff were eligible to
>receive the tax credit for their expenses. This is because the very
>next statement is: "XII. A budget shall be allocated by the Senate to
>meet expenses to compensate magistrates involved in the Census."
>Which I took to mean that the provincial governors that incurred
>expenses in the process of the Census were to be compensated in kind
>not tax credit since section XII doesn't include tax credits in the
>wording. Of course the Senate has to approve the tax credits as your
>law states, but I don't think anyone in the Senate would be foolish
>enough to rather pay an extra $120 or so in international fund
>transfer fees rather than extend the tax credits!
>
>I would have worded it a little different, but now that you have
>finally got it knocked into my thick head that all the magistrates
>involved are eligible for the tax credit I can clearly see where Nova
>Roma saves money in the long run.
I like your attitude! If this means that You admit that Lex Fabia is
cheaper than Lex Cornelia I am _very_ satisfied! I respect people
that can admit mistakes, we all make them. ;-) Could I hope for a
"retractment" of the Excel file from the File section of the ML?
When it comes to words and language, please do me and some of my
Accensi the favour to take in account, in the future,that some of us
don't have Engish as our native language.
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] NOW IT IS CLEAR, LEX FABIA IS CHEAPER THAN LEX CORNELIA! |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 23:41:20 +0200 |
|
Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
I have read it and think that I like it. ;-)
Would I be totally out of order if I suggested to You that You should
give me the benefit of a doubt in the future?
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
><christer.edling@t...> wrote:
>> You are right about the advantages of Lex Fabia, but You show
>clearly
>> that You haven't understood Lex Fabia de Censo when it, for
>example,
>> comes to reimbursements.
>
>Salve Honorable Consul,
>
>Please read my reply about this in my posting
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/10788
>
>
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Attention Voters! Invalid Voter Code |
| From: |
"aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 21:59:30 -0000 |
|
The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:
#831
Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339
Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org
Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] New file uploaded to Nova-Roma |
| From: |
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com |
| Date: |
25 May 2003 22:08:18 -0000 |
|
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.
File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
Description : Amended Euro Census Cost Comparison
You can access this file at the URL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 18:09:19 -0400 |
|
Salve Consul
My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank for
Europe.
I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a number
of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of money in Europe.
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Caeso Fabius Quintilianus" <christer.edling@telia.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Bank Accounts and NR
> Salve Curator!
>
>
> >Salve Romans
> >
> >
> >.."You see it will cost money to send money to these continents from
> >our central Treasury in North America and Lex Cornelia have _no_
> >solution to this."....
> >
> >
> >...It would cost only $163.41 in postage to do it within the
> >provinces, but cost $120.00 in international money transfer fees to
> >reimburse the
> >governors. That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more
> >than the Lex Cornelia in Europe alone....
>
> How many times must I say that it is the other way around? According
> to Lex Cornelia the Censors must organise the Census and there is no
> provincial Census organisation. Of course theCensors could build a
> special Census organisation, but the compensation must be payed from
> the central Treasury that is located in USA. This mean that Lex
> Cornelia will be more expensive as it has to use international money
> orders!
>
> As Lex Fabia may compensate by tax credit, no international money
> transfer fees are needed, thus it means that Lex Fabia is cheaper.
>
> I find it astonishing that You try to tell me, a Propraetor, about
> the costs for international money orders. I have together with other
> Governors tried to adjust the tax rules to accomodate to these facts
> for many years.
>
> Please re-read the laws again and You will find that You have misread
> the Lex Fabia. To repeat a false statement will make it a lie and I
> am sure that You don't want to lie.
>
> >These two passages from posts on the census law brings up another
> >point I have been thinking about for some time.
> >
> >Hold on to you hat or take a seat this is REALLY BIG.
> >
> >
> >I think the Nova Roma needs......
> >
> >A European Bank account to go along with the USA account!!!
> >
> >I know , I know such a revolutionary idea (:0)
> >
> >We need two permanent, Senate appointed, not elected Quaestors or
> >at least two elected ones with longer terms of office and each would
> >be in charge of one of the two bank accounts and yes the two
> >permanent Quaestors would need to be bonded.
> >
> >May be a " Proquaestor" like a Proconsul. Just a thought
>
> Interesting idea. I am not sure that your proposal is what we need,
> but I am sure You have pointed out an interesting problem. But, still
> Europe isn't the USE (United States of Europe), it may still be hard
> to transfer money from one country to another. So itis abit more
> complecated. Still it is worth looking into.
>
> >Vale
> >
> >Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Senior Consul et Senator
> Propraetor Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Cohors Consulis CFQ
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] New file uploaded to Nova-Roma |
| From: |
Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com |
| Date: |
25 May 2003 22:10:11 -0000 |
|
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.
File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
Description : Amended Euro Census Cost Comp.
You can access this file at the URL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] New file uploaded to Nova-Roma |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 May 2003 00:16:23 +0200 |
|
salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus, Amice!
Thank You very much! Quirites, please check this file!
>Hello,
>
>This email message is a notification to let you know that
>a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
>group.
>
> File : /EuroCensusCosts.xls
> Uploaded by : quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
> Description : Amended Euro Census Cost Comparison
>
>You can access this file at the URL
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/EuroCensusCosts.xls
>
>To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
>Regards,
>
>quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 22:19:01 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites; et salve, T. Galeri.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Consul
>
> My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
> I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank
> for Europe.
>
> I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a
> number of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of
> money in Europe.
>
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
I would say that you are right, T. Galeri. And the senior consul (who
lives in Europe) is right as well :-).
There are banks that have branches in different European nations. And
there are banks that own other banks in other European nations. But
the senior consul is right in saying that there are still some
differences between national legislations that can hinder the process
of fund transfer between different states.
In any case, I fully agree with you: we need a "national" bank
account on a European bank. But we would do well in looking for the
aid of someone familiar with the European currently complex banking
system to give us advice about the particulars (which bank and in
which state).
Do we have such an expert around?
CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 22:23:02 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
> >I would have worded it a little different, but now that you have
> >finally got it knocked into my thick head that all the magistrates
> >involved are eligible for the tax credit I can clearly see where
Nova
> >Roma saves money in the long run.
>
> I like your attitude! If this means that You admit that Lex Fabia
is
> cheaper than Lex Cornelia I am _very_ satisfied! I respect people
> that can admit mistakes, we all make them. ;-) Could I hope for a
> "retractment" of the Excel file from the File section of the ML?
>
> When it comes to words and language, please do me and some of my
> Accensi the favour to take in account, in the future,that some of
us
> don't have Engish as our native language.
Salve Honorable Consul,
I have retracted the file and replaced it with the numbers that
reflect the tax credit offsets. In your case your English is quite
excellent and it is easy to forget that it is not your native
language. Besides, it is my native language and I haven't seemed to
do too well with it this time now did I? <G>
Vale,
Q. Cassius Calvus
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Attention Voters! Invalid Voter Code |
| From: |
"aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 22:33:42 -0000 |
|
The citizen with the following voter tracking
number has a malformed or inaccurate voter code:
#839
Please remember to enter your code exactly as
it is given, and if you are unsure of your new
code, follow the instructions posted previously
to obtain your current voter code by e-mail:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/5339
Or you may write the censors: censors @ novaroma.org
Renata Corva
Sr. Rogatrix
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 May 2003 00:42:13 +0200 |
|
Salve Curator!
>Salve Consul
>
>My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
>I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank for
>Europe.
"That means it would the Lex Fabia would cost $44.21 more than the
Lex Cornelia in Europe alone...."
As your mail contained the above statement without any quotation
marks, I think I could excused for believing that this was your
standpoint. I am glad if it wasn't, as it is publicly stated that
these assumptions were wrong!
>I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a number
>of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of money in Europe.
I must admit, as I have said before, that this issue must be looked
into,but my personal experiences have been discouraging.
When it comes to, for example Sweden and Finland, two Regiones within
Thule Provincia, it is not cheap to transfer money between banks in
these two countries. Lately one bank which has offices in most Nordic
(Thule) countries have made it a bit cheaper. But remember that the
"European Union" is no state and that all members counties are still
sovereign states.
>
>Vale
>
>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 May 2003 00:40:01 +0200 |
|
Salvete Illustrus Gnaeus Salix Astur!
>Salvete Quirites; et salve, T. Galeri.
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
>wrote:
>> Salve Consul
>>
>> My post had nothing to do with the pros or cons of your proposed Lex
>> I simply used two of these post to show that we need a central bank
>> for Europe.
>>
>> I can not believe that the EC does not have branches of Bank X in a
>> number of Nations in Europe which would facilitate the movement of
>> money in Europe.
>>
>>
>> Vale
>>
>> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>I would say that you are right, T. Galeri. And the senior consul (who
>lives in Europe) is right as well :-).
>
>There are banks that have branches in different European nations. And
>there are banks that own other banks in other European nations. But
>the senior consul is right in saying that there are still some
>differences between national legislations that can hinder the process
>of fund transfer between different states.
>
>In any case, I fully agree with you: we need a "national" bank
>account on a European bank. But we would do well in looking for the
>aid of someone familiar with the European currently complex banking
>system to give us advice about the particulars (which bank and in
>which state).
>
>Do we have such an expert around?
I think that both Illustrus Sextus Apollonius Scipio, my Quaestor
(who has a leave of absence on personal grounds) and Illustrus Marcus
Marcius Rex, one of our Tribunes could be our men.
They both work in the banking business. I hope that they see this
exchange and respond (to ensure this I will cc them, but I think that
Scipio could be in hospital)
>CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Bank Accounts and NR |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 May 2003 00:49:08 +0200 |
|
Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
Thank You for taking time to retract the file and replacing it with
"Amended Euro Census Cost Comp" As far as I am concerned I respect
people who corect mistakes more that those who never admit any faults.
Language is still a tool to communicate and as our communication seem
to be excellent, no harm is done! ;-)
>Salve Honorable Consul,
>
>I have retracted the file and replaced it with the numbers that
>reflect the tax credit offsets. In your case your English is quite
>excellent and it is easy to forget that it is not your native
>language. Besides, it is my native language and I haven't seemed to
>do too well with it this time now did I? <G>
>
>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] tax lament |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 May 2003 01:26:19 +0200 |
|
Salve Honorable Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka!
I have cc this to the Consular Quaestores, Illustrus Sextus
Apollonius Scipio (he is a a leave of absence though) and Illustrus
Gnaeus Octavius Noricus and my Vicaria Officina Aerarii Illustra
Patriciua Cassia.
>Salvete Omnes
>
>This is just a quick note to tell the world that I
>paid my taxes late (early May) and they seem to have
>been lost in the mail for I have not received a
>message of their receipt. I'll be checking with the
>post office to see if they can't track it down, but
>hopes are low. Let it not be said, then, that I am
>inactive - just shafted by the mail system.
>Valete!
>
>=====
>Decimus Antoninius Aquitanius Organbidexka
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] RE: European Bank account |
| From: |
"william wheeler" <holyconelia@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Sun, 25 May 2003 23:30:27 +0000 |
|
Salve
Now it would be nice to have a European Bank account, the costs to set
one up in NR names are not small, we ( NR) would need to file as a USA corp
doing Biz in the EC state that we want the bank acct in /or incorp in the EU
in the state we(NR) wants the acct in.
cost to file as a usa org doing biz in a European state/and or incorp in
same state are over $500
and some 100's a year etc.. ( other fee's)
also the paperwork needed for a corp bank acct is not the same as say a
personal acct. look into it before you say to me anything.
vale
Marcus Cornelius Felix
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