Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Comment: THE COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA FOR THE LEX FABIA D...
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 May 2003 20:49:26 -0400

Spurius Postumius Quinto Fabio Maximo Senatori S.P.D.

Salve,

Astur: My dear Q. Fabi; you have finally managed to insult hardly everyone
in Nova Roma in just a couple of sentences! My heartfelt
congratulations :-).

Postumius: It seems the Praetor and I agree once again. Loud applause for Senator Fabius the "Greatest!"

> The reason why it was left in the hands censors was obvious, it is
> their job and they would complete it!
> But imagine my surprise when Fabius feels that it will be cheaper
> for the provincials to handle it. Of course it is not their job,
> so why will they care? It will not be handled with any
> efficiency.

Postumius: Perhaps not with efficency, but perhaps with the care and time such an arduous task deserves. I think completing the task with the care and detail it deserves, by taking the time to do it right, is more important than raw efficency. This is what your fellow gensmate Quintillianus is allowing in this lex. He allows the Censors and others involved to take the time necessary to complete this census correctly, rather than only throwing out some random names and numbers to please you and a few others because they could not complete the Census correctly.

Astur: The censores *had* to implement a national census last year according
to the Lex Cornelia de Censo. But they didn't. If you ask the
censores, they will tell you why.

> And why was this never put forth in the Senate so the Senate could
> analyze it? Usually it was tradition for the Senate to approve a
> consul's measure BEFORE it was placed before the Comitia. However,
> Fabius doesn't listen to the Senate who traditionally was to give
> advice. No, instead he by passes them and brings it directly to
> the people.

Astur: Our Constitution says that it is the People (and not the Senate) who
makes laws. The Senate just has a say in those laws that ammend the
Constitution. Sometimes, a consul decides to present a legislative
proposal to the Senate for advice. That is the consul's sole
prerogative and privilege; it is not a duty either by law or by
tradition. And many consules in the past (like L. Cornelius Sulla, or
yourself, for example) have decided not to present their legislative
proposals to the Senate.

Postumius: Aside from that, as you said yourself, it was TRADITION! You and I would effectively agree that _tradition_ is not _law_. Tradition only serves as fough formatting. And, as Astur said, it is the consul's prerogative. Nothing more than that.

> Makes one think of what else is going on behind the scenes.

Astur: You have been trying to convince our citizenry that there is some
kind of complot around for many months without presenting any
evidence. What I am beginning to think is that there actually *is*
some kind of complot: one that is trying to destroy the
democratically elected government of Nova Roma on every occasion.

Postumius: Seconded, without any additions.

> We should try out the Lex Cornelius before we replace it. But we
> never did.

Astur: The Lex Cornelia (excuse me if I correct your horrible Latin, oh
Great Historian) explicitly said this:

"XI. The First Census will take place during the Consulship of Marcus
Octavius Germanicus and Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix (2755 AUC)"

Was it tried out? Ask last year's consules. Ask particularly ex-
consul Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, who was the writer of the law
itself.

Postumius: Since the writer of the lex, former Consul Cornelius Sulla, did not enforce his own law, does that not speak for its effectiveness? I think it speaks for itself in saying that following the law would have been a true impossibility. And in any case, since the census is to take place every two years, starting from the consulship of M. Octavius and L. Cornelius, we are not due for another census until next year. Which therefore allows us this year, between two census, to amend the flaws of one census law, and gives us another year in which we may try our new amendments. The fact that the first lex was not tried is no longer the problem of the administrations of this year. It is the problem of the administrations of last year, and should remain buried with that, unless you insist upon parading around a lifeless corpse through the City into the Forum.

> It was never once followed even though it was A LAW! Does anyone
> else sees this as strange?

Astur: I don't know. Ask last year's consules. Do not ask this year's
magistrates, who had little to do with it.

> It looks like people here once again have not a clue how government
> works.

Astur: Ask last year's consules.

> Or is the CFQ clique so scared of Cornelius' influence here, that
> they have to re title his laws?
> I'll be voting no on this redundant law. I hope for NR's sake you
> do also.

Postumius: I'm sorry, but your implication that there is a clique of followers of Caeso Fabius suggests that perhaps you are the scared one, O Greatest Quintus Fabius. There is no clique. What there are here are those who support the furthering of our Republic, and those who wish to demolish it. I know which side I stand on, the first. Are you, Fabius, sure of what side you stand on?

Astur: This law can either be a mistake because it places the burden of the
census in the hands of our provincial magistrates (like yourself) or
it can be a redundant, innecessary law that doesn't change things.
But it can't be both.

> Save us a lot of time.

Astur: There is one thing in which you are right. Voting NO to this law
would save us time (particularly *your* time, since you are a
provincial governor). We already know that our current law will
produce no results, and that there will be no census at all under it
(since it expliticly instructed the government to produce a census
and since its own creator failed to enforce it).

Postumius: And the simple fact that the current law will produce no results is why a new law is presented. But I hope the entire citizenry can see through your insinuations to the heart of the Republic, which you obviously stand against.

Vale,

Spurius Postumius Tubertus

Private Citizen

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Suggestion (shooting my mouth off)
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 00:57:55 -0000

Salve G. Modius,

Its always good to see your postings. I was still hoping to see some
courses on the Religio Romano. Perhaps a sub site might be able to do
a lot of lectures and discussions on the religion. Whether a Nova
Roman is a follower or not of the Religio Romano, he or she should
still educate themselves and be well informed on the subject in my
opinion. Now I can read but as my teachers said when I was young I
needed a gladiator with a sharp gladius to chase me around and give
me a sharp jab in the butt to kick start my motivation to study.
Assignments, discussions and deadlines always serve as that sword for
me.

Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, AthanasiosofSpfd@a... wrote:
> This is actually something that is being discussed by the
Pontifices and the Collegium. I think it is a good idea for Nova
Roma to "get serious" about the Religio, especially when there are
two pontifices who have not paid their taxes, and several priesthood
holders are delinquent as well.
>
> I joined Nova Roma because of the Religio, not because of the
politics.
>
> Vale;
>
> G. Modius Athanasius
> Flamen Pomonalis
> (also a Senior Druid, Guild Chief, and Dedicant Priest within ADF)
>
> In a message dated 5/27/2003 2:32:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
crunniuc@y... writes:
>
> >
> >
> > I suggest that Nova Roma create a smaller sub organisation which
> > would focus entirely on Religion. THis group should charge a fee
of
> > 20-40 US dollars a year and publish a web site. It should be open
to
> > all Roman Religionists wether they are members of NOva ROma, the
> > Societas Via ROmana, ADF, Hellenion, or whatever. It would
function
> > as a "Ring of Troth" for Religio.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] just saying hello
From:	"Jim" <qclerk@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 01:11:50 -0000

I came across this group and thought I'd Join, My name is Jim, I am
in the Philadelphia/New york city area, IM in school for graphic
design and 36 years old.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Tue, 27 May 2003 20:30:36 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Senator Fabi,


> I believe this census lex done at the provincial level is a bad idea. And I have
> expressed that by using my right to free speech. This belief is based on many
> years of experience as a media official in political campaigns is San Diego
> and LA dealing with unpaid volunteers.

But the Censores are also unpaid volunteers. Why do you think it more likely
that two people will make 800 phone calls each, compared to 20 people making
80 calls each?

Propraetores (or the legates they delegate the task too) will strengthen
their provinces by making contact with these reluctant citizens. They will
be speaking to neighbors and countrymen. To the Censores, however, each
name on the list will be a stranger, expected to remain a stranger - just
another call to finish as quickly as possible in order to move on to
the next.

The Propraetores already have a support staff in place, the Legates. Let's use
that structure and not try to duplicate it.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Modest Support for Lex Fabia de Censo
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Tue, 27 May 2003 20:35:17 -0500

Salvete

Anyone who has been on this list long enough to remember the first few
times we argued about a census knows that I prefer a truly historical
version in which the burden of answering the census lies on patres et
matres familias (essentially, what we've chosen to call "gens
registration"), rather than a modern version in which the burden of
contacting cives lies on the censores. However, the majority of voting
Nova Romans disagree with me, so we have the unwieldy and unhistorical
census we have now. After a great deal of deliberation, I have chosen
to support my collega's version of that census.

The primary arguments against Lex Fabia appear to be as follows:
I. It forces the provincial governors to do something which isn't in
their job description. And yet, the constitution clearly requires
governors to see to the day-to-day administration of their provinciae.
Also, the senatusconsultum on the regulation of gubernatorial
prorogation suggests that governors should send a yearly report to the
senate detailing the state of their respective provinciae. Thus, it
seems reasonable that governors should be expected to be cognizant of
the populace of their provinciae, and that they should therefore help
the censores conduct the census. That the senate determines how they
should be compensated for the effort makes them no different from any
other magistratus.

II. The objective of the census is to remove inactive cives from the
Album Civium. I disagree. The purpose is to get a clear count of our
active cives. Now, the comparison with organizations like the Boy
Scouts is relatively valid, but I think of Nova Roma as more than such
an organization. We are attempting to build a sovereign nation here.
If I leave the US for a decade and return, there will be serious
repercussions (my wife will likely have declared me dead, I will owe
back taxes, etc.) but I will still be a US citizen. Simple inactivity
and lack of communication should not be a reason for loss of civitas,
though it may entail other penalties (being incensus in the ancient Res
Publica was a serious matter, after all).

III. We already have an adequate census lex. I believe that the stated
opinion of our current censores and the lack of a census last year
disprove this assertion. This is the primary deciding factor for me.
The cives of Nova Roma have declared that an unhistorical census is
desirable, but the current lex will not give it to them because it is
unworkable and nobody can force the censores to attempt to enact it. I
shall therefore vote for the lex which will give them what they want.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
May pre house the seamy side volitation!!!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Financial Controls
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@novaroma.org>
Date:	Tue, 27 May 2003 20:45:09 -0500

Salvete Gai Popilli omnesque

>Tiberius Galerius makes an excellent point about the need for a
>permanent "Chief Financial Officer". Although it is not historical,
>it is a need we have in current times.
>

I couldn't agree more, as this is a subject which I've been giving much
thought. Note, by the way, that it is historical after a fashion. The
quaestores were elected each year, of course. However, Roma had a
fairly permanent bureaucracy in place which maintained a degree of
continuity from administration to administration. Nova Roma lacks this
foundation, and it shows rather painfully. Appointing a relatively
permanent CFO and a modest staff of one or two to help him or her (most
likely her, since Patricia Cassia has been doing an admirable job to
date) would be an excellent step in the right direction.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

--
May pre house the seamy side volitation!!!

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Loving her to death
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 02:10:52 -0000

Salve,

I've been thinking, I know dangerous territory for me.

Who's to blame that last year a census was not conducted per the Lex
Cornelia de Censo? Is it last year's Consuls? Is it last year's
Censors? Does it really matter who's to blame and why? Arguing
about what didn't happen a year ago doesn't really solve anything and
only stirs up resentments. If someone wants to charge someone for
neglect of office/dereliction of duty for not having the census last
year it belongs in the legal courts of Nova Roma not the "court of
public opinion."

I don't believe that the Sr. Consul promolgated the Lex Fabia de
Censo merely remove the Lex Cornelia de Censo because it was
promolgated by Sulla. Anyone who votes for or against a law based on
who's name is in the title is even more shortsighted then I am on a
bad day. I don't think anyone here would argue against me that I'm
not pretty short sighted at times.

I do believe that the Sr. Consul introduced the Lex Fabia de Censo
because he believed that the Lex Cornelia de Censo was an inadequate
and too expensive law to accomplish the task at hand. Even as blind
as I can be, once I had driven through my head the full nature of the
tax credits was able to produce what I hope is a reliable cost
analysis of doing the census in Europe alone that proves that the Sr.
Consul is correct in his assertion that the Lex Fabia is less
expensive in the long run.

It has been argued that relying on the Provincial governors to assist
in the Census is bad because some governors may prove not to be up to
the task. Maybe that will be the case, hopefully not. To argue
against something because someone might screw it up argues that we
shouldn't have a Census under the Lex Cornelia de Censo because one
of the Censors or their scribes might screw up. Guess what people
screw up! I screw up! But the only person who never screws up is
the person who does nothing with their life. If someone screws up
the tasks assigned them as governor, then the Senate has every reason
to replace that person.

We all seem to have our opinions of what is best for Nova Roma. We
bicker and fight amongst ourselves because ultimately we love Nova
Roma. But at some point we all, my self included, need to stand back
from the bickering and fighting and ask ourselves, "Are we loving
Nova Roma to death?"

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: just saying hello
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 03:50:29 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <qclerk@y...> wrote:

Salve Jim,

A hearty welcome to the list. I hope you enjoy yourself and have some
time to see the Nova Roma website. You are the second newbie here
today, you and loupgarou. If you go back and see 'NEW" about 15
postings back, you'll get a short explaination of what we are talking
about lately. Take care and look forward to hearing from you!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



> I came across this group and thought I'd Join, My name is Jim, I
am
> in the Philadelphia/New york city area, IM in school for graphic
> design and 36 years old.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Loving her to death
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 03:50:24 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@a...> wrote:
> Salve,

Salve,

> I've been thinking, I know dangerous territory for me.
>
> Who's to blame that last year a census was not conducted per the
>Lex Cornelia de Censo? Is it last year's Consuls? Is it last
>year's Censors? Does it really matter who's to blame and why?
>Arguing about what didn't happen a year ago doesn't really solve
>anything and only stirs up resentments. If someone wants to charge
>someone for neglect of office/dereliction of duty for not having the
>census last year it belongs in the legal courts of Nova Roma not
>the "court of public opinion."

You are right, that is old news at this point. However, the censors'
failure to carry out the old law is central to the argument of those
who say the new law should be passed. In essence, "The old law
failed in these areas and the censors were unable to carry it out,
this law fixes that." It follows that those opposed to the law will
latch onto this point.

> I do believe that the Sr. Consul introduced the Lex Fabia de Censo
> because he believed that the Lex Cornelia de Censo was an
>inadequate and too expensive law to accomplish the task at hand.
>Even as blind as I can be, once I had driven through my head the
>full nature of the tax credits was able to produce what I hope is a
>reliable cost analysis of doing the census in Europe alone that
>proves that the Sr. Consul is correct in his assertion that the Lex
>Fabia is less expensive in the long run.

Of course the consul is proposing this revision of the census law
because he believes the old law inadequate. I have no doubt of his
good intentions.

And you are right, the new law will be cheaper.

> We all seem to have our opinions of what is best for Nova Roma. We
> bicker and fight amongst ourselves because ultimately we love Nova
> Roma. But at some point we all, my self included, need to stand
>back from the bickering and fighting and ask ourselves, "Are we
>loving Nova Roma to death?"
>

Well said. However, I ask you: If one thinks a law is bad law, should
he roll over and give up in the name of Pax? Or if one thinks this is
a good law, should he not fight for it or should he give up in the
name of Pax? Can we not take a little political bickering? This is
nothing. We are pale shadows of the political fighting that went on
in the ancient forum.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Good news...
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 00:02:38 -0400

Salve this is good news!!!!

Pax

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pipar - Steven" <catamount_grange@inwave.com>
To: "Forum Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Good news...


> Salus et Fortuna Omnes,
>
> I've been incommunicado for some time now, personal health and work
situation.
>
> Big thing, though...
>
> The fears my wife and I had of her having breast cancer have been put to
rest. My beloved does not
> have cancer, as was first thought, but the growth is a benign, fibrous
cyst.
>
> I'll be catching up on personal emails now that things are looking better
here.
>
> Looks like I'll be on a regular, Monday to Friday schedule at my employer
soon, 4 am to 1 pm
> stocking crew. I'll be able to plan life a little better, mend some
fences, do things I should be
> doing...
>
> --
> =========================================
> In Amicus sub Fidelis
> - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
> Civis Nova Romana et Paterfamilias
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Census;
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 04:12:57 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Honored Nova Roma Citizens;

Salve Senator et Consular,

> As I have said, I am not much of a Politician, but I have some small
> success at getting under a problem and shifting it into gear to get
>it moving in the right direction in some of my career activities.

Old friend, do not be so shy, you know you are Nova Roma's consumate
politician. The fact you say you are not a politician is what makes
you such a good one.

>The Citizens of Nova Roma have voted to do a Census, and they have
>been forced to wait due to an unrealistic set of situations
>which "blew out the tires" on the effort. Our Senior Consul has put
>some air back into those same tires and offers to get the effort
>rolling again.
>
> As always there are nit-pickers who wish to make just one more
> adjustment, dot one more "i" and cross one more "t". The
>Citizenship of NR has indicated the necessity of moving ahead with
>this program, so I would ask the Citizens to approve the Senior
>Consul's Proposal to do just that, and let loose the brakes, so this
>effort can get rolling as has been previously approved.

To continue your metaphor, if it looks like the tires aren't screwed
on properly or if I see a problem with the tires, I will point it
out.

The proper time to comment on a law is now, it is not nit-picking. I
would fully expect someone to do the same to a law I proposed. We are
not sheep but should state our opinions.


> I do not appreciate the Citizen's desires being held up by the
>poking fingers and snide remarks of those who make "political hay"
>from disrupting the wishes of a nation. The final arbiters of this
>desire are the people of NR, and they have spoken.

I do not appreciate your implication that those opposed to a law
should not speak up. The people have not spoken yet on this law, they
are still voting as well as discussing it. As one of the people, I
have spoken my peace, as have people on the other side of the
argument.

>Let us then come together,
> and move this effort ahead, as the Citizenship has already voted too
> long ago to get done.

The people spoke long ago on another census law that was not carried
out for various reasons. We are discussing another law. If this law
is passed, then we will come together and move on. The law has not
passed yet and people should let their voices be heard.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: gangs
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 04:18:49 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cassia <pcassia@n...>
wrote:
>
Snip for space
> I would never
> expect every Cassius or Cassia to support my views, and while the
> Cassian bond might keep me from being completely rude to
a "relative"
> whose views I disliked, I would certainly not hesitate to express
my
> opposition in dignified terms.
>
> -----
> Patricia Cassia
> Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
> Nova Roma . pcassia@n...

Salve Patricia,

Well said! All families have their differences both politically and
in the homes, even today. Gosh, my mom and dad belonged to and voted
for 2 different parties in my country. I know it can sometimes be
very hard to express something in "dignified" terms. I strive for
that but shall not be hypocritical since I failed miserabley on
another non Roman yahoo group with another subject the other day.
Certain comments made there made the worst day ever in the back alley
(which can be fun)look like a Sunday school service. Well I'm glad to
be back on a list that sorts out differences in a civilized manner
and I'm sure all the citizens and list members appreciate that!

Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: gangs
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 00:24:49 -0400

Salve

If my memory servers me right Tiberius Gracchi assassination was proposed by
one of his cousins, I believe a first cousin.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus





----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Cassia" <pcassia@novaroma.org>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:07 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: gangs


>
> On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 05:31 PM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> > Isn't senator Fabius the paterfamilias of Consul Fabius, and if so why
> > would he attack his own family, and how does that fit in the family
> > system of Nova Roma, and what is the purpose of it anyway
>
> The family system was active in ancient Rome -- most family members
> hung together politically, and while there were certainly cases where
> brother publicly opposed brother, it was considered the exception
> rather than the rule. Also, over time, the more numerous families
> developed branches, so that the Cornelii Gracchi and the Cornelii
> Metelli might find themselves on opposite sides of an issue. (I don't
> know whether those two specific branches ever opposed one another, I'm
> just using the names as an example.)
>
> The family (gens) system has been the subject of much debate in Nova
> Roma, and there are currently several sorts of gentes. I would never
> expect every Cassius or Cassia to support my views, and while the
> Cassian bond might keep me from being completely rude to a "relative"
> whose views I disliked, I would certainly not hesitate to express my
> opposition in dignified terms.
>
> -----
> Patricia Cassia
> Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
> Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Census qeustion
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 00:53:58 -0400

Salve Romans

I have a question on the Census laws both proposed and old.

Is the main reason to take a census to determine how many of the 1773
"Citizens" are still here and to determine how many of them are real people?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Census qeustion
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 05:46:35 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Romans
>
> I have a question on the Census laws both proposed and old.
>
> Is the main reason to take a census to determine how many of the
>1773 "Citizens" are still here and to determine how many of them are
>real people?


Yes to both questions. Since a census was first discussed in Nova
Roma, at least 3 or 4 years ago, the main reason was to determine who
could still be an active citizen since the numbers of inactive
citizens seemed to be growing. Those considered non-active citizens
would be dropped from the rolls so we could have an accurate count of
how many citizens we really have.

Because it is so easy to apply for citizenship, many people fill out
the form and "join" NR without ever really joining. They get put in
the roll of citizens but never join the ML or participate at all.
They never disappeared because they were never really here. Many join
without ever really knowing what NR is. "Hey, cool website where I
can choose a Roman name, just like Ancientsites." Click, on to the
next site. As censor I noticed early on how many people never
bothered to respond when contacted about their name or their
application.

This emphasizes the main problem with the socii idea. There are some
formerly active citizens who have lapsed into inactivity, and some of
them might indeed come back. However, they are a minority of our 1300-
1400 inactive citizens. Most of those will never "come back" because
they were never here and never will be. Thus the number of socii this
law will create will continue to gow unchecked unless some kind of
time limit is put on socius status, or the socius idea is dropped
completely which I believe it should be.

On way to cut down on such casual "click, join and disappear"
citizens is to go back to a physical, mail-in form. Most "casual
joiners" will not go through the trouble of filling out an
application, buying a stamp and mailing it. This would be a simple
way to prevent likely inactive citizens from joining in the first
place.

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Census qeustion
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 01:53:32 -0400

Salve

Can the sign-up part of the web site be fixed to stop "casual" citizens and
then have all of us reapply?

Tiberius


----- Original Message -----
From: "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:46 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Census qeustion


> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
> wrote:
> > Salve Romans
> >
> > I have a question on the Census laws both proposed and old.
> >
> > Is the main reason to take a census to determine how many of the
> >1773 "Citizens" are still here and to determine how many of them are
> >real people?
>
>
> Yes to both questions. Since a census was first discussed in Nova
> Roma, at least 3 or 4 years ago, the main reason was to determine who
> could still be an active citizen since the numbers of inactive
> citizens seemed to be growing. Those considered non-active citizens
> would be dropped from the rolls so we could have an accurate count of
> how many citizens we really have.
>
> Because it is so easy to apply for citizenship, many people fill out
> the form and "join" NR without ever really joining. They get put in
> the roll of citizens but never join the ML or participate at all.
> They never disappeared because they were never really here. Many join
> without ever really knowing what NR is. "Hey, cool website where I
> can choose a Roman name, just like Ancientsites." Click, on to the
> next site. As censor I noticed early on how many people never
> bothered to respond when contacted about their name or their
> application.
>
> This emphasizes the main problem with the socii idea. There are some
> formerly active citizens who have lapsed into inactivity, and some of
> them might indeed come back. However, they are a minority of our 1300-
> 1400 inactive citizens. Most of those will never "come back" because
> they were never here and never will be. Thus the number of socii this
> law will create will continue to gow unchecked unless some kind of
> time limit is put on socius status, or the socius idea is dropped
> completely which I believe it should be.
>
> On way to cut down on such casual "click, join and disappear"
> citizens is to go back to a physical, mail-in form. Most "casual
> joiners" will not go through the trouble of filling out an
> application, buying a stamp and mailing it. This would be a simple
> way to prevent likely inactive citizens from joining in the first
> place.
>
> Sorry, didn't mean to ramble.
>
> Vale,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 03:22:45 EDT

In a message dated 5/27/03 6:31:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, haase@konoko.net
writes:


> But the Censores are also unpaid volunteers. Why do you think it more
> likely
> that two people will make 800 phone calls each, compared to 20 people making
> 80 calls each?
>

Because Octavius, it's your job. If you didn't want to be involved in this,
don't stand for the gig... Sorry, but that's the way I feel. You do not have
the time to commit to NR, don't stand for a job that will take up the time.
It is pretty simple.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 05:34:27 EDT

In a message dated 5/28/2003 3:24:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com writes:

> Because Octavius, it's your job. If you didn't want to be involved in
> this,
> don't stand for the gig... Sorry, but that's the way I feel. You do not
> have
> the time to commit to NR, don't stand for a job that will take up the time.
>
> It is pretty simple.
>

The same goes for Provincial Praetors. They are there to administer their
provinces, and serve at the whim of the Senate. If the people require them to
assist in a census then it becomes their duty to assist with it. I find your
blanket statements, against provincial leadership, insulting. However, I have
come to accept that about you...and would honestly expect nothing less. You
have a "my way or the highway attitude," Nova Roma is a global organization
and takes many gears to make the wheel turn.

G. Modius Athanasius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Papyri and material culture
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 10:22:10 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Having posted links to a number of Greco-Roman papyrus census
documents yesterday, I though it might be useful to post some
background to the localities of discovery and the range of documents
recovered and restored. So, here's a link to " Graeco-Roman Papyrus
Documents from Egypt":

http://www.athenapub.com/egypap1.htm

It is an e-text from the Athena Review Vol.2, no.2, and includes an
excellent introductory essay, helpful maps, and images of the material
culture of Roman Egypt.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: gangs
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 11:34:28 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> If my memory servers me right Tiberius Gracchi assassination was
proposed by
> one of his cousins, I believe a first cousin.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

No surprise, the family trees of the powerful and wealthy of ancient
Rome were wreaths.

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 06:54:14 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Senator Fabi,

> Because Octavius, it's your job.

According to the current law; but that's about to change, and it will soon be
a task that is shared between the Censores and the Propraetores.

> You do not have the time to commit to NR, don't stand for a job that will
> take up the time.

I do have time to commit to NR, as everyone here well knows from my past
record. However, I'm not going to squander all of that time on a task that's
better handled at the provincial level.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The noblest Roman?
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 12:54:54 +0100 (BST)

Salvete,

I have just finished a book titled 'The Noblest
Roman', a biography of Marcus Iunius Brutus. The book
examines his life and his subsequant reputation
through the ages. I have two questions:

1, Was Brutus "the noblest Roman of them all" as
proclaimed by Shakespeare's Marc Anthony, or do you
have a less postitive opinion of this mans means and
motives?

2, If not Brutus, then who do you consider to be the
noblest Roman?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 12:56:54 +0100 (BST)

Salve,

> According to the current law; but that's about to
> change, and it will soon be
> a task that is shared between the Censores and the
> Propraetores.

I must say that as a propraetor, it would have been
nice to have been consulted about this change to my
job description.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Loving her to death
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 12:12:14 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
> <richmal@a...> wrote:
> Well said. However, I ask you: If one thinks a law is bad law,
should
> he roll over and give up in the name of Pax? Or if one thinks this
is
> a good law, should he not fight for it or should he give up in the
> name of Pax? Can we not take a little political bickering? This is
> nothing. We are pale shadows of the political fighting that went on
> in the ancient forum.

Salve,

I see. Of course it's much better to simply find fault and get into
a pissing contest over everything a political opponent does just
because he/she is a political opponent rather than on the merits of
what is proposed. Once in a while it's better to let one's
political opponents win. If they screw it up, there is nothing
sweeter in politics than to be able to say, "I told you so." But to
get to be able to get to that point one has to take a chance
that ::::gasp:::: one's political opponent may actually
be ::::gasp:::: right. I know radical concept, huh.

Vale

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 07:27:39 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Decime Iuni,

> > According to the current law; but that's about to
> > change, and it will soon be
> > a task that is shared between the Censores and the
> > Propraetores.
>
> I must say that as a propraetor, it would have been
> nice to have been consulted about this change to my
> job description.

Ah, but as a Censor's scribe, you'd have been asked to do it in either case!

Vale, O.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 13:40:36 +0100 (BST)

Salve Marce Octavi, Censor.

> Ah, but as a Censor's scribe, you'd have been asked
> to do it in either case!

Precisely...so at least I can't be accused of trying
to get out of some hard work ;-)

Britannia has currently one of the highest proportion
of inactive cives out of any of Nova Roma's provinces
(although out situation is improving). I would be
genuinely surprised if 20 British cives reply to the
bulk email...which means that I will have to snail
mail about 60 individuals, out of my own pocket (cost
approx $30-50). This will take me about half a day to
accomplish, and my thanks from the state will be an $8
tax break. The thing is, I don't begrudge the time or
the money - I just feel it is resources that could be
better spent on people that actually care about NR,
rather than those who fill out an application form and
then can't be bothered to either resign or provide
up-to date details.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor and Censorial Scribe and therefore stuffed
either way :-)

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re:shooting my mouth off
From:	jademermaid@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 08:55:49 EDT

I also joined because I wanted to study the Religio. As a new citizen who
finds little to no interest in politics, I just have to say that you people
pound the horse into the ground and then dig it up and pound it some more when it
comes to discussing politics. For me, it's a complete bore. I'm on the
Religio Romana list but not much is going on there. I still think I might leave
this list, and I'm not trying to gain sympathy as some folks do when they
threaten to leave. I'm just stating it as fact, this list bores me to tears. :-)

I'm not saying that hashing these things out isn't important, and I
understand that this was probably what the senators did back in the day, so please
don't ridicule me and tell me all about that. Fact is, you guys seem to enjoy
arguing more than you do problem solving. From what I've seen in the few short
weeks I've been a citizen, the focus seems to be on verbose posts and who knows
more, rather than what is best for the community. My two pennies, let them
fall where they will.

In any case, I would be far more interested in talking with people who are
knowledgeable about RR, so come over to the Religio Romana list and let's talk
about it!

Vale,
Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re:shooting my mouth off
From:	jim mcfadden <qclerk@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 07:07:30 -0700 (PDT)

Im new myself, I am more of an artist myself, I can understand if something bores you, i am bored too by polotics, if I may make a suggestion, why not start a topic you enjoy talking about and avoid the ones which bore you, ?



jademermaid@aol.com wrote:
I also joined because I wanted to study the Religio. As a new citizen who
finds little to no interest in politics, I just have to say that you people
pound the horse into the ground and then dig it up and pound it some more when it
comes to discussing politics. For me, it's a complete bore. I'm on the
Religio Romana list but not much is going on there. I still think I might leave
this list, and I'm not trying to gain sympathy as some folks do when they
threaten to leave. I'm just stating it as fact, this list bores me to tears. :-)

I'm not saying that hashing these things out isn't important, and I
understand that this was probably what the senators did back in the day, so please
don't ridicule me and tell me all about that. Fact is, you guys seem to enjoy
arguing more than you do problem solving. From what I've seen in the few short
weeks I've been a citizen, the focus seems to be on verbose posts and who knows
more, rather than what is best for the community. My two pennies, let them
fall where they will.

In any case, I would be far more interested in talking with people who are
knowledgeable about RR, so come over to the Religio Romana list and let's talk
about it!

Vale,
Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Census qeustion
From:	jim mcfadden <qclerk@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 07:02:41 -0700 (PDT)

I have an idea, how bout an email to all citizens, in order to update the records, if they dont reply, then of course we know they are innactive

if someone happens to get deleted and they really want to remain in Nova Roma, then i wouild think that they would contact the staff no?

Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:
Salve Romans

I have a question on the Census laws both proposed and old.

Is the main reason to take a census to determine how many of the 1773
"Citizens" are still here and to determine how many of them are real people?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The noblest Roman?
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 14:21:51 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
<danedwardsuk@y...> wrote:

> Salvete, Decime!
>
> I have just finished a book titled 'The Noblest
> Roman', a biography of Marcus Iunius Brutus. The book
> examines his life and his subsequant reputation
> through the ages. I have two questions:
>
> 1, Was Brutus "the noblest Roman of them all" as
> proclaimed by Shakespeare's Marc Anthony, or do you
> have a less postitive opinion of this mans means and
> motives?
>
> 2, If not Brutus, then who do you consider to be the
> noblest Roman?
>
> Salve Decime!

1) Brutus was not so noble in my opinion; In the civil wars he fought
with Pompei angainst Caesar but was pardoned by Caesar and appointed
Praetor in 44bc. With Cassius he lead the Republican resistance
against Caesar and was the no. 1 assassin. That action of physically
killing the mane who spared is sorry buttis hardly noble in my
opinion.

2 Lucius Qiunctius Cincinnatus could be considered the Noblest Roman.
He was a great hero recalled from his farm in 458 BC to save Rome
when its army under the counsel Menucius was being blockaded by the
Italian Aequi tribe. He thrashed the enemy, resigned his dictatorship
after 16 days and returned to his farm. He did other significant
things for Rome but took no great honours and always returned to the
farm. How more noble can you get?


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] TNT CAESAR miniseries
From:	"Paula Drennan" <dragonpink@satx.rr.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 09:25:04 -0500

Ave,

I have been seeing lots of commercials for that new movie on Julius Ceasar. I'm sure other's have seen them also, but I thought I'd just post it for anyone who hasn't and might be interested. I'm looking forward to it. i've been trying to read Caasar's Conquest of Gaul but it's not easy for me, very dry reading in some places. Here's the link to the network page on it: http://www.tnt.tv/Movies/Caesar just in case anyone is interested.

Salve,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Loving her to death
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 14:54:48 -0000

Didn't post, trying again...

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@a...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...>
wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
> > <richmal@a...> wrote:
> > Well said. However, I ask you: If one thinks a law is bad law,
> should
> > he roll over and give up in the name of Pax? Or if one thinks
>this is a good law, should he not fight for it or should he give up
>>in the name of Pax? Can we not take a little political bickering? >
>>This is nothing. We are pale shadows of the political fighting that
>>went on in the ancient forum.
>
> Salve,

Salve,

> I see. Of course it's much better to simply find fault and get
>into a pissing contest over everything a political opponent does
>just because he/she is a political opponent rather than on the
>merits of what is proposed.

I believe I WAS discussing the merits of the proposal, namely putting
inactive citizens into the socii rather than dropping them outright.

I have not spoken publicly against everything the consul has done, I
believe this is actually the first time I have been in public
opposition to him, though I have criticized some of his actions to
him privately. On the size of his staff discussion, for example, I
was silent in public though I discussed it with him at length
privately since that discussion WAS a public pissing match I wanted
no part of. I remember you were quite vocal during that discussion.
Should you have remained silent despite your reservations?

Since this is a law I felt I had to come public with my opposition.

>Once in a while it's better to let >one's
> political opponents win. If they screw it up, there is nothing
> sweeter in politics than to be able to say, "I told you so." But
to
> get to be able to get to that point one has to take a chance
> that ::::gasp:::: one's political opponent may actually
> be ::::gasp:::: right.

But I don't think he is right, at least in part, so where does that
leave me? In other words shut up anyway?

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

P.S. Actually, I made most of my position statements at the beginning
of the voting period, I hadn't posted on the matter since Saturday or
Sunday.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gangs
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 11:29:43 -0400 (EDT)

I think that one must remember that while the Gens in Nova Roma is very
much akin to a "family", the entrance into a Gens is often based on
merely a few exchanges of E-Mails, and often that exchange does not
reveal the sometimes deep divisions in culture, background, behavior,
and morals of two different people from two different countres, with two
very different views of how political activities should be conducted,
and two very very different views of what is good for Nova Roma and what
is not.

Certainly the familial feeling is in place in the Gens involvement, but
constant criticism, disagreement, and views which match in very few
elements will take thier toll over time, in the best of situations.

It is not at all unusual for two people from two different backgrounds
to strongly disagree. Put into that mix the responsibility for others
both as a Consul and as a Senior Senator, and you have a volitile mix.

I happen to know both individuals of whom you speak, because I have
spent time with both, and have discussed political as well as cultural
concerns with both. I have served with one of the two as Co-Consul, and
during that period we did very well together, in my estimation,
considering the challenges that faced us, and I have said that on more
than one occasin here on this list. The other gentleman and I view each
other as good friends, probably as good as it gets!!!! I agree with
most of his ideas both culturally and politically.

However, I have also disagreed strongly with both on more than one
occasion, for a variety of reasons. While I am not of the Gens Fabius,
I feel close to both of these men because of my involvement with both;
in many ways closer than some Gensmates. Senator Fabius was one of the
first to invite me to join his Patrician Gens when I first became
involved in NR, and that offer meant a great deal to me at the time
since I did not know many here.

So just as brother fought brother, and father fought son in the great
U.S. Civil War, there are some ideas that transcend family ties and
that, of course, includes the ties born of a Gens relationship.

In selecting people to be a part of the Gens Minucia, I try to select
people who have similar ideas of human values and morals to those that I
hold. I do not attempt to hold them to what they say or do, simply
because I do not feel that is part of the role of a Paterfamilias.
Others do not feel as I do. So, for the most part, the Gens Minucia is
made up of people who have thier own ideas and who do not require a
special set of considerations. They are, of course. very welcome to
join me in my endeavors, as are any of my friends, but are not under any
circumstance required to, or held to any Gens-rules, requirements or
institutions. My gens is a small one, simply because I do not actively
recruit from new NR members. My idea here is that each NR Citizen
should make thier Gens decision based on thier desires and thier wishes
not upon the promises of another. Other Pater / Materfamilia may have
differet ideas. So, very much like modern day families, each NR Gens is
as different as those who are involved in it.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Loving her to death
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 14:48:38 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@a...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...>
wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
> > <richmal@a...> wrote:
> > Well said. However, I ask you: If one thinks a law is bad law,
> should
> > he roll over and give up in the name of Pax? Or if one thinks
>this is a good law, should he not fight for it or should he give up
>>in the name of Pax? Can we not take a little political bickering? >
>>This is nothing. We are pale shadows of the political fighting that
>>went on in the ancient forum.
>
> Salve,

Salve,

> I see. Of course it's much better to simply find fault and get
>into a pissing contest over everything a political opponent does
>just because he/she is a political opponent rather than on the
>merits of what is proposed.

I believe I WAS discussing the merits of the proposal, namely putting
inactive citizens into the socii rather than dropping them outright.

I have not spoken publicly against everything the consul has done, I
believe this is actually the first time I have been in public
opposition to him, though I have criticized some of his actions to
him privately. On the size of his staff discussion, for example, I
was silent in public though I discussed it with him at length
privately since that discussion WAS a public pissing match I wanted
no part of. I remember you were quite vocal during that discussion.
Should you have remained silent despite your reservations?

Since this is a law I felt I had to come public with my opposition.

>Once in a while it's better to let >one's
> political opponents win. If they screw it up, there is nothing
> sweeter in politics than to be able to say, "I told you so." But
to
> get to be able to get to that point one has to take a chance
> that ::::gasp:::: one's political opponent may actually
> be ::::gasp:::: right.

But I don't think he is right, at least in part, so where does that
leave me? In other words shut up anyway?

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

P.S. Actually, I made most of my position statements at the beginning
of the voting period, I hadn't posted on the matter since Saturday or
Sunday.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 11:39:26 -0400 (EDT)

Senator Maximus;

Understood. Long plane flights with my lower leg problems make me
particularly "cranky" as well (Grin!!!), much to my lovely wife's
disappointment. It is she, after all, who must put up with the "cranky
old man!!"

However, she does it so well that I am usually my old cheerful, loving,
sweet and thoughtful self in only two weeks!!!!! (Grin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Loving her to death
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 15:20:04 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
>
> Didn't post, trying again...
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
> <richmal@a...> wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...>
> wrote:
> > > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
> > > <richmal@a...> wrote:
> > > Well said. However, I ask you: If one thinks a law is bad law,
> > should
> > > he roll over and give up in the name of Pax? Or if one thinks
> >this is a good law, should he not fight for it or should he give
up
> >>in the name of Pax? Can we not take a little political bickering?
>
> >>This is nothing. We are pale shadows of the political fighting
that
> >>went on in the ancient forum.
> >
> > Salve,
>
> Salve,
>
> > I see. Of course it's much better to simply find fault and get
> >into a pissing contest over everything a political opponent does
> >just because he/she is a political opponent rather than on the
> >merits of what is proposed.
>
> I believe I WAS discussing the merits of the proposal, namely
putting
> inactive citizens into the socii rather than dropping them outright

Sorry, just to clarify the above sentence of my own message (haste
makes waste as the old cliche goes): I believe I WAS discussing the
merits of the proposal, namely the part of the law that proposes
putting inactive citizens into the socii rather than dropping them
outright.

Vale,

D. Iunius Palladius
Palladius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Gangs
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 15:36:40 -0000

Salve Senator et Consular,

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> in many ways closer than some Gensmates. Senator Fabius was one of
>the first to invite me to join his Patrician Gens when I first became
> involved in NR, and that offer meant a great deal to me at the time
> since I did not know many here.

Just to make a note of the historical record here, Gens Minucia
became a patrician gens in December 1998 by the censors with the
approval of the senate, before gens Fabia. It was the first gens to
move from plebeian status to patrician. Gens Fabia was originally
plebeian and became a patrician gens in the summer of 1999 under the
dictator Vedius.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Census
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 12:13:10 -0400 (EDT)

Honored Senator Palladius;

I have unfortunately, as I have so often done in the past. made myself
unclear, and for that I must apologize.

You are certainly correct in that this is the time for citizens to voice
thier ideas about a proposed law. That is in fact right and proper, in
my humble view, and I agree with you entirely.

My concern is not that this proposed law cannot stand on it's own, but
rather, my problem is those who decry such a proposal solely for thier
own political advantage. If that was not made clear in my last post,
then I endeavor to make it so now.

You have indeed been my mentor in the past, and your views are certainly
among those that I read and value. So, I beg that perhaps my concerns
have been better stated on this occasion, and that perhaps I may have
erased, by so doing, your idea that I oppose the expression of concerns
on the part of the citizens of NR. What I oppose is insulting remarks,
name-calling and political manuvering that has little to do with
carrying out the determination of the NR Citizens.

Respectfully;

Marcus Mincius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Census qeustion
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 16:55:56 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
> On way to cut down on such casual "click, join and disappear"
> citizens is to go back to a physical, mail-in form. Most "casual
> joiners" will not go through the trouble of filling out an
> application, buying a stamp and mailing it. This would be a simple
> way to prevent likely inactive citizens from joining in the first
> place.

Salve,

On that note, another 'safeguard' would be to include on the
membership form a question such as "What would you be willing to
offer to Nova Roma to encourage the growth of the nation?" I'm not
just talking about financial donations, which many can afford but
many cannot. It would be interesting to see what responses we get
when we encourage people to become active citizens right up front, by
asking for donations of time and skills.

> Sorry, didn't mean to ramble.

R-a-m-b-l-i-n, ramblin'... (Sorry, channelling a bit of Steve Martin.)

vale,
Arnamentia Moravia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] [NovaRoma-Announce] CALL FOR COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA: Edictum Consulare CFQ VII de Comitiorum Populi Tributorum Convocatione
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 13:14:01 -0400

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to the Consul.

I find this to be a good law but agree that the efforts to contact inactive citizens in Section IV. is to extensive. I believe that the B. and C. should be combined into an "either/or" situation. The provincial governors and their staff should be able to make one snail mail OR one phone attempt rather than both. I believe that it would be more economical this way.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Consulare CFQ VII de Comitiorum Populi Tributorum Convocatione
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 13:19:23 -0400

I believe that another option would be to contact the other groups that are Roman that we know inactive citizens have moved to. If we can get permission to make an announcement of the census on their mainlists, we can probably make contact with a sizeable percentage of inactive NR citizens. Some of these citizens who have joined other groups may feel that because NR is making such an effort on the census, that they will want to rejoin as allies or even as citizens. It is worth thinking about.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Loving her to death
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 17:18:44 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
>....I discussed it with him at length
> privately since that discussion WAS a public pissing match I wanted
> no part of. I remember you were quite vocal during that discussion.
> Should you have remained silent despite your reservations?

Salve,

In retrospect I think yes, it would have been better that I had been
publically silent and taken my concerns to Consul Caeso through
private channels. Then if I wasn't satisfied with the answer from
the Consul or after a reasonable time received no answer, then speak
publically. Please remember is my original post that started this
thread I did not exclude myself from my own critique.

> But I don't think he is right, at least in part, so where does that
> leave me? In other words shut up anyway?

That's completely up to the individual. You're right that Nova
Roma's political bickering isn't anywhere near like the old Roman
Forum, but considering history and how the Republic ended up...


Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Mil. Appointments and WELCOME HOME and MILITARIUM WELL DONE -
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 13:31:22 -0400 (EDT)

Primus Pilas "Maximus" Mecurius Minucius Gladius;

Commander Casca is now in Germany. As I understand he came back to the
states from his involvement in the overseas military effort, spent a
short time in the States (probably mustering out) and then went to
Germany for a commitment there. He is still in Germany, at this time,
as I understand.

I would urge you to join such as you are a member of the Militarium
Command Staff and a vote has been asked for on the application of Legio
XXI to be sponsored by Nova Roma.

In order to join the Militarium, and finalize your appointment on the
Militarium Command Staff as Praefectus Gladitorium you should contact
Beneficarius / Militarium Tribunus Mlitum Pompeia Strabo and ask to be
included on both the Militarium Command Staff and the Militarium Lists:

trog99@hotmail.com

Command Staff Membership:---

I intend to re-appoint Casca as my Cornicularius Major(Adjutant), now
that he has returned from his military duties. My current Cornicularius
has indicated a desire to be relieved of that position due to his
expanded real world activities. However, due to the value of past
service to me and to Militarium, both as an Advisor, and as
Cornicularius (Temp.) I now appoint him to the position of Cornicularius
Minor (Asst. Adjutant), and Casca to the position of Cornicularius
Major(Adjutant). Both positions will be listed on the Militarium
Command Staff by Scribae Major / Beneficarius / Militarium Tribunus
Miltum Pompeia Strabo, Further, in view of Mistress Strabo's physical
concerns, I authorize the position of a Scribae Minor on the Command
Staff. This position will be filled by Mistress Stabo's determination
and approved by the Praefectus Castorum. Pompeia has my authority to
choose a Scribae Major to assist her as needed in Militarium concerns.
Perhaps someone from the Militarium Membership would like to volunteer
for that task, which will be added to the Command Staff upon selection
by Pompeia.

Casca will, of course, not be able to attend Gladiator Events until he
has returned from Germany. However, by the above re-appointment he is a
continuing member of both the Militarium and It's Command Staff.

Mlitarium Membership should take note of this new position and if anyone
is interested applications from both the Regular Militarium Membership
and the Mlitarium Socci will be considered first .

Primus Pilus Gladius:---

I assume Primus Pilus, that you intend to retain Commander Casca in the
Gladiator School, as you have been pleased to do during his military
service period.

Lastly, but far, far from least, I take this opportuniy to welcome home
Casca, Commander of Legio VI, and war veteran / hero The Militarium and
Militarium Command extend to you the traditional Miltary WELL DONE!!!!!

You sir, have been much in my mind during your service, and if I may
speak for elements within Militarium, much of thier minds as well. We
are much relieved to have you return safely, and I am more than pleased
to be able to lead three rousing cheers to celebrate that return:

Hip Hip Huzzah -- Casca!!
Hip Hip Huzzah -- Casca!!!
HIP HIP HUZZAH -- CASCAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens
Consular;
Prafectus Castorum -- Sodlalitas Militarium -- Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] The noblest Roman?
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 20:14:23 +0200

Salve,

<2, If not Brutus, then who do you consider to be the
<noblest Roman?

Well Palladius, that's an easy one.

The answer could only be you and Q Fabius Maximus.

Vale,
Diana
;-)

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Consulare CFQ VII de Comitiorum Populi Tributorum Convocatione
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 14:21:42 -0400

Salve

Another great idea from the Galeri!!! God/s what a family !!!!!

( a very large grin)

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


----- Original Message -----
From: <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Consulare CFQ VII de Comitiorum Populi
Tributorum Convocatione


> I believe that another option would be to contact the other groups that
are Roman that we know inactive citizens have moved to. If we can get
permission to make an announcement of the census on their mainlists, we can
probably make contact with a sizeable percentage of inactive NR citizens.
Some of these citizens who have joined other groups may feel that because NR
is making such an effort on the census, that they will want to rejoin as
allies or even as citizens. It is worth thinking about.
>
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Financial Controls
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 18:43:12 -0000

>>Patricia Cassia has been doing an admirable job to
date) would be an excellent step in the right direction.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus<<


Hear, hear!!! Patricia Cassia for CFO (latin translation, Primoris
Pecunius Magistratus???)As the senior Consul has posted he already
considers her as such, I recommend the Senate offically appoint her
so (so that her appointment survives the annual change of Consuls)
and that the Senate consider a committee of its membersto oversee
financial matters.

If help is needed regarding accounting principles, etc. I am willing
in exchange for vast amounts of century points and election as
Princepts ;-O

C. P. Laenas

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Consulare CFQ VII de Comitiorum Populi Tributorum Convocatione
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 14:52:51 -0400

My esteemed cousin makes good sense. I would be happy to donate 25 phone calls to try to locate some of our inactive citizens.

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] De Re Censo
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 14:58:59 -0400

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur Quiritibus SPD

Last year no monies were allotted for a Census as per the Lex Cornelia DE CENSO.
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-06-05-ii.html
X. A budget is to be provided for the Censors' Office to offset costs for conducting the census. This budget is to be included only for the years that a Census takes place. The amount to be set aside would be established by the Senate of Nova Roma.

That was my legal rational for not proceeding with the Census; however, in my personal opinion, it would have been a monumental waste of time and money to have held the Census under that lex, as has been pointed out so very eloquently by Censor Octavious.
Since the author of the Lex was then Consul one would believe that he would have been anxious to have brought a budget to the Senate to implement the Census, it was 'his baby' after all.
An interesting footnote is that the proposed Lex was never discussed with me when I was his colleague or before it was proposed last year I don't recall it ever being discussed with me or my then colleague Censor Diocletianus.

Senator Q Fabius has complained numerous times (publicly) about there being no Census held last year. He was told *last year* why we didn't hold the Census. Therefore I can only conclude that this latest, and continued, harangue is purely political.
Anyway, the current proposal is a vast improvement, I have voted for it, and I urge other to also support it with their votes. Having said that I do agree with my friend, Consul Fortunatus, that "I prefer a truly historical version in which the burden of answering the census lies on patres et matres familias (essentially, what we've chosen to call "gens registration"), rather than a modern version in which the burden of contacting cives lies on the censores."

It was almost too easy to comply with the 'Gens Registration' as it was administered by Censores Diocletianus et M Octavius. In addition we already have a good idea who is active and who isn't by who votes and or pays taxes .

On way to cut down on such casual "click, join and disappear"
citizens is to go back to a physical, mail-in form. Most "casual
joiners" will not go through the trouble of filling out an
application, buying a stamp and mailing it. This would be a simple
way to prevent likely inactive citizens from joining in the first
place.

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble.

Vale, Decius Iunius Palladius

I've been an advocate of a return to the 'snail-mail' application since the online form was first implemented. Instead of 'weeding out the dead wood' we would have 'weeded out' those who aren't the least bit serious from the start. Really, a stamp and SASE (self addressed stamped envelope) isn't that much time or money. Quite frankly if one can't manage that then one ought to reconsider their priorities.

I must say that as a propraetor, it would have been
nice to have been consulted about this change to my
job description.

Vale, Decimus Iunius Silanus.

Yes, that is how I felt last year when the Lex Cornelia DE CENSO was being voted upon. Perhaps I should have been outspoken in my objections, but I would have been willing to try had we been given the support of the Senate.

I do believe that the Censores ought to be consulted on how they are going to do their job, as anyone who is a supervisory position ought. Censor is a very demanding position and to expect someone to devote so much time and energy to it AND then in the middle of a term ADD a financial burden, however sight, without their consultation and approval is an outrage.

I just wanted to set the record straight that we didn't "ignore" the Census last year.

Mars nos protegas.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The noblest Roman?
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 19:03:49 -0000

Well I was going to reply, but I find I cannot say it better than
Quintus Lanius Paulinus already has!

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
> <danedwardsuk@y...> wrote:
>
> > Salvete, Decime!
> >
> > I have just finished a book titled 'The Noblest
> > Roman', a biography of Marcus Iunius Brutus. The book
> > examines his life and his subsequant reputation
> > through the ages. I have two questions:
> >
> > 1, Was Brutus "the noblest Roman of them all" as
> > proclaimed by Shakespeare's Marc Anthony, or do you
> > have a less postitive opinion of this mans means and
> > motives?
> >
> > 2, If not Brutus, then who do you consider to be the
> > noblest Roman?
> >
> > Salve Decime!
>
> 1) Brutus was not so noble in my opinion; In the civil wars he
fought
> with Pompei angainst Caesar but was pardoned by Caesar and
appointed
> Praetor in 44bc. With Cassius he lead the Republican resistance
> against Caesar and was the no. 1 assassin. That action of
physically
> killing the mane who spared is sorry buttis hardly noble in my
> opinion.
>
> 2 Lucius Qiunctius Cincinnatus could be considered the Noblest
Roman.
> He was a great hero recalled from his farm in 458 BC to save Rome
> when its army under the counsel Menucius was being blockaded by
the
> Italian Aequi tribe. He thrashed the enemy, resigned his
dictatorship
> after 16 days and returned to his farm. He did other significant
> things for Rome but took no great honours and always returned to
the
> farm. How more noble can you get?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] De Re Censo
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 21:15:40 +0200

Salve L Equitius,
Salve Consul Labienus,

<Having said that I do agree with my friend, Consul Fortunatus, that "I
prefer a truly historical <version in which the burden of answering the
census lies on patres et matres familias (essentially, <what we've chosen to
call "gens registration"), rather than a modern version in which the burden
of <contacting cives lies on the censores."

I'm sorry that I missed that discussion when it took place, because I would
have preferred the above method as well. Ok, Gens Moravia is tiny, but I can
say off the top of my head :

which citizens in Gens Moravia are really active (easy--it's the ladies!),
which citizens care about NR a bit and also post a bit,
which citizens care a lot but never say a word,
which citizens joined and didn't find what they were hoping for,
and lastly which citizens joined NR and then were never heard from again.

Ah well, maybe we can save that for the 2005 census!

Valete,
Diana Moravia

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Comment: THE COMITIA POPULI TRIBUTA FOR THE LEX FABIA D...
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 21:17:09 +0200

Salvete,

Postumius: <snip>Loud applause for Senator Fabius the "Greatest!"

It is nice to see you supporting Q Fabius. It goes to show you that just
because we disagree with someone at times, we can always find common ground
eventually.

Astur: My dear Q. Fabi; you have finally managed to insult hardly everyone
in Nova Roma in just a couple of sentences! My heartfelt congratulations
:-).

Hey now! You can't speak for everyone. I wasn't insulted and am in fact
enjoying the discussions--mudslinging and all!

I am guessing that a few Provincial governors were insulted and certainly
the Cohors Consulis. Still that is not everyone despite how many emails
appear on this list which sometimes may make it appear so. If Scaevola were
here, I'd have to buy more space in my mailbox to store all of his incoming
emails in support of you :-p

But freedom of speech works in both directions. I am glad that we still have
it here on this Main List. Whether or not someone's comments are 'popular'
or considered by the opposite side to be mudslinging, still everyone needs
to be heard. In light of that, I support your right to say that everyone was
insulted by Q Fabius. :-)

Vale,
Diana Moravia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Days
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 21:27:49 +0200

Salvete!

Subject change!

I am keeping all of my fingers and all 12 toes crossed (joke) that I will be
at Roman Days and also at the Rally in Bologna. What can I say? I wish I
could meet you all !

So, who is going to Roman Days? How do we know who is whom? I think that
I'd recognize a few people and am not shy about going up to strangers and
asking***, but I come across as *slightly* less goofy if I know our meeting
place in advance. Does Nova Roma have its own little section?

***Serapio can bear witness to me shouting "Serapio???" across Brussels
airport :-)

Valete,
Diana




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Suggestion (shooting my mouth off)
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 15:49:07 -0400

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Suggestion. Salve.

Bad idea! Boo. Hiss. Keep the Religio exactly where it is. Who is this person?

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Suggestion (shooting my mouth off)
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 16:00:34 -0400

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to G. Modius Athanasius, Flamen Pomonalis. Salve.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. I believe that the Religio could be better served if the pontiffs, flamens, and augurs published articles on the mainlist and in The Eagle to put forward the goals and beliefs of the Religio and also by attending pagan festivals to teach classes & perform public rituals.
After casting about for a pontiff or flamen to teach a class at the Pagan Unity Festival [in April] and not having any success, I finally taught the class myself using the materials available to any citizen. The result was a very well attended class that yielded one new citizen for NR. Issac Bonewits and I discussed the class as we were driving back from visiting the Parthenon in Nashville. As I remember, he believes that many pagans committed to non-specific paths might find the Greek and Roman reconstructed religions just the right thing for them. A Babylonian-Akkadian ritual to Innana was held on Friday night and a Druidical ritual to the Dagda and Brigid on Saturday night [led by Issac & Gray Cat]. Both were well received by the majority of the laity who had been exposed to mostly Wiccan, CM, Christian, Jewish, and Buddhist rituals. I believe that more than anything else, NR needs to put the religio out into the world. Vale.

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] The noblest Roman?
From:	jim mcfadden <qclerk@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 11:44:43 -0700 (PDT)

Q!

Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:Salve,

<2, If not Brutus, then who do you consider to be the
<noblest Roman?

Well Palladius, that's an easy one.

The answer could only be you and Q Fabius Maximus.

Vale,
Diana
;-)

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] just saying hello
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 16:06:35 -0400

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to Jim. Salve.

Welcome, proto-citizen. I believe that you can find virtually anything you want in Nova Roma from the glory and knowledge of Old Rome to the pompous, long-winded tyrades of demagogues. Please feel free to peruse the main site and check out all of the areas that interest you. We of the gens Galeria (and the other active, productive gens)would welcome any citizen who wishes to serve and participate in such a glorious enterprise as Nova Roma. May the gods grant you health and good fortune. Vale.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The noblest Roman?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 16:07:42 -0400

Salve

In MHO Marcus Iunius Brutus is not even in the top ten of
"the noblest Roman/s of them all". I know this will not be popular but
Caesar makes the list and the assassin of the so called "tyrant" does not. I
agree that Cincinnatus is the best candidate and I take pride in the fact
that the "Father of my County" has been said to be the:

"Cincinnatus of the west, whom envy dare not hate, bequeath the name of
Washington to make men blush there was but one."

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus


----- Original Message -----
From: "gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 3:03 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The noblest Roman?


> Well I was going to reply, but I find I cannot say it better than
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus already has!
>
> Vale,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
> > <danedwardsuk@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > Salvete, Decime!
> > >
> > > I have just finished a book titled 'The Noblest
> > > Roman', a biography of Marcus Iunius Brutus. The book
> > > examines his life and his subsequant reputation
> > > through the ages. I have two questions:
> > >
> > > 1, Was Brutus "the noblest Roman of them all" as
> > > proclaimed by Shakespeare's Marc Anthony, or do you
> > > have a less postitive opinion of this mans means and
> > > motives?
> > >
> > > 2, If not Brutus, then who do you consider to be the
> > > noblest Roman?
> > >
> > > Salve Decime!
> >
> > 1) Brutus was not so noble in my opinion; In the civil wars he
> fought
> > with Pompei angainst Caesar but was pardoned by Caesar and
> appointed
> > Praetor in 44bc. With Cassius he lead the Republican resistance
> > against Caesar and was the no. 1 assassin. That action of
> physically
> > killing the mane who spared is sorry buttis hardly noble in my
> > opinion.
> >
> > 2 Lucius Qiunctius Cincinnatus could be considered the Noblest
> Roman.
> > He was a great hero recalled from his farm in 458 BC to save Rome
> > when its army under the counsel Menucius was being blockaded by
> the
> > Italian Aequi tribe. He thrashed the enemy, resigned his
> dictatorship
> > after 16 days and returned to his farm. He did other significant
> > things for Rome but took no great honours and always returned to
> the
> > farm. How more noble can you get?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] "Jim and Loup garou"
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 16:11:44 -0400 (EDT)

Welcome to Nova Roma. My good friend Quintus Lanius Paulinus speaks for
you, and that is a definite plus as far as I am concerned.

I think that you will be pleased to be a member of Nova Roma, It has
many facets, and many groups that are interested in all aspects of the
Roman world.

I invite you to consider joining the Sodalitas Miltarium if you are
interested in the Military World of Rome. The Militarium is like a club
which discusses various military subjects and aspects of our world.

I also invite you to join the Sodalitas Egressus if you are interested
in an outreach program to bring Nova Roma to those not aquainted with
it.

In both organizations are some very dedicated and clever people who are
very interested in the activities not only of Nova Roma but also of the
specific areas in which they work at research, drawing, discussing, and
providing new information. I am most pleased to be associated with
these very clever and industrious people,and am pleased to welcome you
as well -- as your interest moves you.

It is fairly easy to join either above mentoned Sodalitas -- just write
a message to:

trog99@hotmail.com

and ask to join. I will send this E-Mail to that address so that my
Beneficarius Pompeia Strabo will be ready for your applications should
you wish to take up my offer. We have many ladies who are interested in
the Roman Military and Beneficarius Strabo, has been appointed as
Militarium Tribunus Militum as well as the Praefectus for Roman Naval
Reseach for her efforts and contributions to the Militarium. The
Militarium also has Praefects for the Roman Legions, the Aritecs and
Mapmakers, the Auxiliaries, and Gladiators. Mistress Loup larou, I am
sure that you will like Mistress Pompeia Strabo. I value her greatly as
she has been an excellent companion in this world, and one day, I shall
make the effort to visit her in Canada.

There are many other things in NR to be interested in. Our Honored
Consul Labienus from time to time runs a fam course in better
understanding NR in the Academia Thule.

This Academia was founded by my very good friend the Honored Consul
Quintillianus from Sweden. He and I have been blessed to meet face to
face in Oslo, Norway, and have sealed a great friendship thanks to Nova
Roma. I hope that you will be as lucky as I have been in finding good
friends the world over through Nova Roma.

There are as well several Legions whom Nova Roma sponsors, and there are
many openings in your Provincias for a wide variety of different areas
of effort if you are interested in being of some service to Nova Roma.

Finally, if you have any particular skills, desires or questions
regarding NR, I invite you to contact me, and while I certainly don't
have an answer for everything, it may well be that I can put you in
touch with someone who can answer your needs.

Now, I must apologize to those other new Citizens who have joined NR
since I last spoke on this subject. I have in my reenactment world been
unusually taken up with projects, and I have gotten behind on my
welcomes, and for that I am sorry. However, I invite all of you new
Citizens, as I have invited both Master Jim and Mistress Loup garou, to
jump into Nova Roma, look around, be active, and if you have any
questions I should be pleased to answer them and make your aquaintance
in a more personal way.

Welcome my friends to Nova Roma!!!! It is what you will make of it, and
I sincerely welcome each and every one of you, with your ideas, dreams,
skills and fresh outlooks on this collection of people dedicated to
renewing in the best ways possible the Roman Ideas.

Most Sincerely amd Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Citizen of Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] I feel wonderful tonight...
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 23:22:08 +0300

Salvete omnes,

After (too) many years I did it today: I took my bicycle from the
pile of unsorted things, changed tires, tuned the breaks and shifts
and washed some dust off. Then I and Emilia Curia made a 3 hour trip
to the nearby forest roads. And now that I'm back I can tell you that
my legs are aching, but otherwise I feel wonderful!

It is of course great that he feels wonderful, you might think, but
what it has to do with Roman things?

Well, Romans were known for their love for good bodily condition (at
least during the republic) and I thought I should share with you all
the idea: that it is not too late to do some exercise, even if it is
several years since the last time you did. So, my fellow Romans, get
into fresh air and move yourself!

:-)

Valete,
--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@welho.com
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: gangs
From:	jan gram <janabc10@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT)

Thank you Senator Cassia, and thank you Senator Audens. I am a prospective citizen and happen to be related to one of the citizens but he didn't seem to know either. I have a general idea of how the system functioned in ancient roma and my question was really how does it function in Nova Roma. It seems to me it is just a name and nothing else, a matter of cosmetics noticeable to some of us who don't live in the great metropolitan centers where family ties are a bit more loose, if it be family. But again, the ancient system could not be duplicated in the 21st Century anyway. Thank you again.

Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org> wrote:

On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 05:31 PM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Isn't senator Fabius the paterfamilias of Consul Fabius, and if so why
> would he attack his own family, and how does that fit in the family
> system of Nova Roma, and what is the purpose of it anyway

The family system was active in ancient Rome -- most family members
hung together politically, and while there were certainly cases where
brother publicly opposed brother, it was considered the exception
rather than the rule. Also, over time, the more numerous families
developed branches, so that the Cornelii Gracchi and the Cornelii
Metelli might find themselves on opposite sides of an issue. (I don't
know whether those two specific branches ever opposed one another, I'm
just using the names as an example.)

The family (gens) system has been the subject of much debate in Nova
Roma, and there are currently several sorts of gentes. I would never
expect every Cassius or Cassia to support my views, and while the
Cassian bond might keep me from being completely rude to a "relative"
whose views I disliked, I would certainly not hesitate to express my
opposition in dignified terms.

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Suggestion (shooting my mouth off)
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 16:40:25 -0400

Salve Dear Cousin

In December when we were getting the first "New" issue of the Eagle ready I
asked a particular citizen if they would be interested in writing an article
, for each issue, on the Religio.

I am still waiting for a response.


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum


----- Original Message -----
From: <PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Suggestion (shooting my mouth off)


> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to G. Modius Athanasius, Flamen Pomonalis.
Salve.
>
> I strongly disagree with this sentiment. I believe that the Religio could
be better served if the pontiffs, flamens, and augurs published articles on
the mainlist and in The Eagle to put forward the goals and beliefs of the
Religio and also by attending pagan festivals to teach classes & perform
public rituals.
> After casting about for a pontiff or flamen to teach a class at the Pagan
Unity Festival [in April] and not having any success, I finally taught the
class myself using the materials available to any citizen. The result was a
very well attended class that yielded one new citizen for NR. Issac
Bonewits and I discussed the class as we were driving back from visiting the
Parthenon in Nashville. As I remember, he believes that many pagans
committed to non-specific paths might find the Greek and Roman reconstructed
religions just the right thing for them. A Babylonian-Akkadian ritual to
Innana was held on Friday night and a Druidical ritual to the Dagda and
Brigid on Saturday night [led by Issac & Gray Cat]. Both were well received
by the majority of the laity who had been exposed to mostly Wiccan, CM,
Christian, Jewish, and Buddhist rituals. I believe that more than anything
else, NR needs to put the religio out into the world. Vale.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: gangs
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 21:04:49 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date : 28 May 2003 00:07:17

>
>The family (gens) system has been the subject of much debate in Nova
>Roma, and there are currently several sorts of gentes. I would never
>expect every Cassius or Cassia to support my views, and while the
>Cassian bond might keep me from being completely rude to a “relative“
>whose views I disliked, I would certainly not hesitate to express my
>opposition in dignified terms.
>
Were NR to emulate the Roman system in modern terms, the Gentes should advertise their attitude on various matters as they already do their religious affiliation. Gens would then approximate to political party or faction.
Personally, I think that would be a backstep too far. Gens and Client solidarity is obviously connected directly with social insecurity in an undeveloped society and we are familiar enough with post-renaissance 'Families' in the poor Italian South, Naples, Sardinia and Corsica and their transatlantic versions. It amounts to a Clan system (question, did that exist then or develop later?) with at least in early times, legal recognition for the patrisfamilias power of life & death over members. It does not seem workable and certainly not appropriate for the modern world.
Most people here are adoptees. Roman adoption flexibiliity might well have kept the gentes solid; dissenters could arrange adoption into a rival clan.

Caesariensis


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Suggestion (shooting my mouth off)
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 21:15:30 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : AthanasiosofSpfd@aol.com
Date : 28 May 2003 00:48:31

This is actually something that is being discussed by the Pontifices and the Collegium. I think it is a good idea for Nova Roma to “get serious“ about the Religio, especially when there are two pontifices who have not paid their taxes, and several priesthood holders are delinquent as well.
>
Just how serious? What about the archaic numinous Flamines? I can hardly see anyone taking the tabus on Flamen Dialis seriously! And what about Frazer's dear old Golden Bough? Romans were themselves ambiguous about other aspects of the religio; if you want communion, afterlife, awe, turn to and imported Mystery Cult or to the Lares, Penates and non-physical fauna, starting with Faunus. Most Pontifices and associated officials seem to have literally done it by the book, more as State magicians than as we think of religion following 2,000 years of a Mystery cult de-mystified. Not that that lessens the gods. Rather, I feel, it enhances them to great Forces to be worked with rather than the irascible personalities of Greek Olympos. We can see something very like the folk Religio still at work in wayside shrines to saints nobody's ever heard of in Celtic lands and in Shinto and in parts of nominally Muslim Africa not averse to direct dealing with 'spirits' and of course in /some/ aspects of India but not their great philosophical theologies. And, for my money, anything with a touch of Japan about it has to be worthwhile!

Caesariensis.


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Newbies / Ingratitude
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 22:03:08 -0000

Salve Senator Audens et omnes,

Thank you for your a great introduction for the newbies. With regards
to new critics; Do you remember that there was a holiday every year
in Rome in honour for one of the gods. On that day the owners made
the slaves the King of the Household and actually the slaves were
waited on by the owners.

Now often many of us forget that all these offices in Nova Roma are
volunteer only. Some critics on other lists have said that we are a
group of people that must have too much free time on our hands doing
what we do. I'm sure much of the free time devoted to NR by our
government people could be better spent on web projects that earn
them extra money intsead; like 30.00 an hour plus that my nephew
makes. Lets not piss them off with our ingratitude.

Now I envy the job of the Censors. I suppose I can find many faults
if I look hard enough. Maybe a slave/owner type holiday would be a
good idea where Marcus Octavius and Titus Labeanus would get the heck
out of my way and let me run there jobs for a day or two. Well not
knowing web design, struggling with excel, not even being able to
post a photo to the gens album, the mob would tear me to pieces as
quick as they did Cinna the Poet! Similarily, how many a read enough
or willing to put the time in. Like Caesar said, I sometimes feel
that I'd rather be Chief of a barbarian village than second man in
Rome as do others. That holiday would make us counsels for a day. How
much better would we do? Well lets try and appreciate people's
efforts a little more. When Nova Roma is rich enough to pay officials
100,000 US + a year then we can howl like banshees at their
shortcomings.

Respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: The noblest Roman?
From:	ames0826@cs.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 16:10:32 -0400

Salve, Omnes:

One could put in a word for Belisarius, although he did live way at the other end of the Roman era. He seems to have had a pretty creative attitude toward doing the right thing.

"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:

> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
>lt;danedwardsuk@y...gt; wrote:
>
>gt; Salvete, Decime!
>gt;
>gt; I have just finished a book titled 'The Noblest
>gt; Roman', a biography of Marcus Iunius Brutus. The book
>gt; examines his life and his subsequant reputation
>gt; through the ages. I have two questions:
>gt;
>gt; 1, Was Brutus quot;the noblest Roman of them allquot; as
>gt; proclaimed by Shakespeare's Marc Anthony, or do you
>gt; have a less postitive opinion of this mans means and
>gt; motives?
>gt;
>gt; 2, If not Brutus, then who do you consider to be the
>gt; noblest Roman?
>gt;
>gt; Salve Decime!
>
>1) Brutus was not so noble in my opinion; In the civil wars he fought
>with Pompei angainst Caesar but was pardoned by Caesar and appointed
>Praetor in 44bc. With Cassius he lead the Republican resistance
>against Caesar and was the no. 1 assassin. That action of physically
>killing the mane who spared is sorry buttis hardly noble in my
>opinion.
>
>2 Lucius Qiunctius Cincinnatus could be considered the Noblest Roman.
>He was a great hero recalled from his farm in 458 BC to save Rome
>when its army under the counsel Menucius was being blockaded by the
>Italian Aequi tribe. He thrashed the enemy, resigned his dictatorship
>after 16 days and returned to his farm. He did other significant
>things for Rome but took no great honours and always returned to the
>farm. How more noble can you get?
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
>    *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
>
>    
>    ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>    
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: I feel wonderful tonight...
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 22:12:09 -0000

Salve!

What a wonderful idea, especially considering the wonderful weather
lately (in Oregon, at least...) It's so easy to forget to enjoy it,
since so many of our activities are online. Anyone up for a hike?

Arnamentia


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Curius Saturninus
<c.curius@w...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> After (too) many years I did it today: I took my bicycle from the
> pile of unsorted things, changed tires, tuned the breaks and shifts
> and washed some dust off. Then I and Emilia Curia made a 3 hour
trip
> to the nearby forest roads. And now that I'm back I can tell you
that
> my legs are aching, but otherwise I feel wonderful!
>
> It is of course great that he feels wonderful, you might think, but
> what it has to do with Roman things?
>
> Well, Romans were known for their love for good bodily condition
(at
> least during the republic) and I thought I should share with you
all
> the idea: that it is not too late to do some exercise, even if it
is
> several years since the last time you did. So, my fellow Romans,
get
> into fresh air and move yourself!
>
> :-)
>
> Valete,
> --
>
> Caius Curius Saturninus
>
> Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
> Legatus Regionis Finnicae
> Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
> Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
>
> e-mail: c.curius@w...
> www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
> www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
> gsm: +358-50-3315279
> fax: +358-9-8754751

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] "Jim and Loup garou"
From:	Al Grace <leseulloupgarou@yahoo.com>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 15:04:23 -0700 (PDT)

thank you for the welcome, i will check things out, but it might take me awhile because i have school and all. have a loverly day!
alina


Welcome to Nova Roma. My good friend Quintus Lanius Paulinus speaks for
you, and that is a definite plus as far as I am concerned.

I think that you will be pleased to be a member of Nova Roma, It has
many facets, and many groups that are interested in all aspects of the
Roman world.

I invite you to consider joining the Sodalitas Miltarium if you are
interested in the Military World of Rome. The Militarium is like a club
which discusses various military subjects and aspects of our world.

I also invite you to join the Sodalitas Egressus if you are interested
in an outreach program to bring Nova Roma to those not aquainted with
it.

In both organizations are some very dedicated and clever people who are
very interested in the activities not only of Nova Roma but also of the
specific areas in which they work at research, drawing, discussing, and
providing new information. I am most pleased to be associated with
these very clever and industrious people,and am pleased to welcome you
as well -- as your interest moves you.

It is fairly easy to join either above mentoned Sodalitas -- just write
a message to:

trog99@hotmail.com

and ask to join. I will send this E-Mail to that address so that my
Beneficarius Pompeia Strabo will be ready for your applications should
you wish to take up my offer. We have many ladies who are interested in
the Roman Military and Beneficarius Strabo, has been appointed as
Militarium Tribunus Militum as well as the Praefectus for Roman Naval
Reseach for her efforts and contributions to the Militarium. The
Militarium also has Praefects for the Roman Legions, the Aritecs and
Mapmakers, the Auxiliaries, and Gladiators. Mistress Loup larou, I am
sure that you will like Mistress Pompeia Strabo. I value her greatly as
she has been an excellent companion in this world, and one day, I shall
make the effort to visit her in Canada.

There are many other things in NR to be interested in. Our Honored
Consul Labienus from time to time runs a fam course in better
understanding NR in the Academia Thule.

This Academia was founded by my very good friend the Honored Consul
Quintillianus from Sweden. He and I have been blessed to meet face to
face in Oslo, Norway, and have sealed a great friendship thanks to Nova
Roma. I hope that you will be as lucky as I have been in finding good
friends the world over through Nova Roma.

There are as well several Legions whom Nova Roma sponsors, and there are
many openings in your Provincias for a wide variety of different areas
of effort if you are interested in being of some service to Nova Roma.

Finally, if you have any particular skills, desires or questions
regarding NR, I invite you to contact me, and while I certainly don't
have an answer for everything, it may well be that I can put you in
touch with someone who can answer your needs.

Now, I must apologize to those other new Citizens who have joined NR
since I last spoke on this subject. I have in my reenactment world been
unusually taken up with projects, and I have gotten behind on my
welcomes, and for that I am sorry. However, I invite all of you new
Citizens, as I have invited both Master Jim and Mistress Loup garou, to
jump into Nova Roma, look around, be active, and if you have any
questions I should be pleased to answer them and make your aquaintance
in a more personal way.

Welcome my friends to Nova Roma!!!! It is what you will make of it, and
I sincerely welcome each and every one of you, with your ideas, dreams,
skills and fresh outlooks on this collection of people dedicated to
renewing in the best ways possible the Roman Ideas.

Most Sincerely amd Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Citizen of Nova Roma

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] gangs
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 23:39:53 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Britannia has currently one of the highest
proportion
> of inactive cives out of any of Nova Roma's
provinces
> (although out situation is improving). I would be
> genuinely surprised if 20 British cives reply to the
> bulk email...which means that I will have to snail
> mail about 60 individuals, out of my own pocket
(cost
> approx $30-50). This will take me about half a day
to
> accomplish, and my thanks from the state will be an
> $8 tax break.

In the spirit of conciliation, I should be glad to
help you complete the British section of the census if
the Fabian law passes. I live in Oxford, with people I
can stay with in London and in Lancashire, which gives
a relatively good spread of places from which to make
'phone calls. :)

Cordus

=====


www.strategikon.org


__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 617
From:	jademermaid@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 28 May 2003 19:06:17 EDT

Alright. My last post was bitchy and I apologize. Yet I really do find most
of the posts here tedious, and that statement I will stand by.

Thank you, dear cousin Tiberius Galerius Paulinus, for directing my energies
toward the Eagle, a far more constructive effort!

Visne saltare?

Violentilla Titinia Saltatrix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]