Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Cicero or Catilina?
From:	"Max" <maxmarth@libero.it>
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 2003 20:05:20 +0200

SVVBEEV



I have just finished Cicero's orations "In Catilinam" and I have a question:

who do you consider the best between Cicero and Catilina?


In fact, while the first was a very vain person and also a naïve politician, the other was very ambitious and "extravagant with his money and greedy for someone else's money", according to Sallust.



I'd be interested in your thoughts.



Valete,

Octavia Fabia Musa.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Cicero or Catilina?
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sat, 7 Jun 2003 17:05:28 -0400

Salve Octavia,

To answer your question, I'm personally all for Cicero, but I have a biased opinion. I've always admired Cicero anyway, and I have the same inferiority that, as my Latin teacher always says, Cicero and Pompey did. So my hand goes to Cicero, between himself and Cataline, for no justifiable reasons.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

"Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Cicero or Catilina?
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 07 Jun 2003 23:55:05 -0000

Salvete Octavius et Spurius,

For people who don't know them, here they are in a nutshell:

Lucius Sergius Catiline - He came from an obscure patrician family
- Rose to political prominance about 60 BC
- Defeated by Cicero for the counsulship in 63
- Exploited the wide political unrest in Italy
- Involved in a conspiracy of rebellion
against the state
- Cicero takes action
- Cataline is defeated and killed in 62 BC

Marcus Tullius Cicero - He came from an equestrian family
- Orator who holds many political offices
- Defeated Cataline for the counselship in 63
- Opposed to Caesar, exiled in 58 BC
- Recalled in 57 BC
- 51 BC, he's governor of Cilicia, sopporter
of Pompei in the Civil War
- Reconciled with Caesar but supported his
assassination
- Delivers a series of speeches against
Anthony in 44 - 43 BC; however, Octavian
makes an allience with Anthony,
proscriptions follow and Cicero is executed.

Well based on these facts I have to give the winning hand to Cicero
with one reservation. He came from a merchant type family of
businessmen, by defeating Cateline in the senate as well as saving
his hide from the wrath of Caesar and getting promoted instead, he
was obviuosly the better talker, he climbed his way through the ranks
to get his poltical experience rather than trying to usurpe power
from the top and finally he was always a step ahead of Cateline,
shown by the fact he beat him to the punch with regards to the
conspiracy.

Still, I must stay consistant in my logic. My reservation about
Cicero is the same one I had for Brutus on my posting the other day.
Ceasar spares their lives and promotes them both. They both turn
around and stab him in the back; Brutus physically and Cicero, moraly.
In their circumstances, I think both men, after being spared by
Caesar should have resigned from office if they detested his policies
and let others solve the problem. I hate biting off the hand that fed
me.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus