Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Fw: Fine Dell'Impero Romano TRANSLATION IN ENGLISH
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:12:13 -0000

Salvete omnes,

My Spanish is ok but I don't speak Italian. Thanks to Babelfish I
think I got his drift more or less:

He says he found the website and wonders about the fall of Rome in
476.
His quesions are: Where were the frontier legions of Rome when the
barbarian onslaughts began? Why were the Roman powers that be unable
to forsee the coming of the Bararians? Where were the senators,
counsels and imperators as the barbarians were taking Rome? Its a
mystery he cannot understand.


Regards, Quintus











--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sandruzzo" <assemblera@y...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sandruzzo
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:54 PM
> Subject: Fine Dell'Impero Romano
>
>
> Ave!
>
> girando qua e la per la rete ho letto diversi documenti sulla fine
(Sing) dell'Impero Romano,data circa (se non erroro) 476 d.c.le mie
domande sono molteplici:
>
> come mai non e' stato possibile fermare i barbari,sconfitti anni
prima piu' di una volta?
> non c'erano legioni fuori dall'italia da portare a Roma per tentare
un contro assalto?
> come mai l'impero non e' stato capace di prevedere la venuta dei
barbari?
> una volta caduta Roma(o nel mentre),il senato,l'iperatore,le
legioni dove erano?
>
> sara mattu cio' mi sembra molto strano...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Rory" <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:48:54 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jan gram <janabc10@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@y...> wrote:
> . How or why the "seventh"
> day celebration for Christians came to be held on the
> first day of the week— the "day of the Conquering
> Sun"----- remains a "mystery" to modern Christians.
>
>
>
> there is no mystery at all why Christians celebrated Sunday.
Early Christians were all jews (til Paul who founded Christianity as
we know it, more or less, and opened it to the gentiles), so they
observed the Sabbath on Saturday and the next day, which happened to
be Sunday, they met and celebrated Christ.
>

Thats in fact, false, and my article (already posted) explained all
of the reasons, of Sun Day for a Sun God (Mithras) and the
word "mystery" was used around quotes for obvious reasons. I ALREADY
mentioned the Jews sabbath day being on Saturday in the
aforementioned article, so its somewhat moot to simply parrot that
fact. Hardly is it "Obscure information". But I digress. Is this the
typical slovenly "scholarship" I can expect here, or is this just a
personal problem of yours, specifically?

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Mithraism (converted from "Past Legal Occasions")
From:	"Rory" <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:51:16 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas"
<ksterne@b...> wrote:
> Salvete All,
>
> Once again thanks to Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius for his
interesting
> post on Mithraism and its connections to the early Christian
> church. Coincidentally, I ran across the following link today to a
> site with more, for any who are interested:
>
>
http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Pe
> riods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html#int

Indeed its a great source of information, as well as the superb
Mithraeum:

http://www.mithraeum.org/

Regards!

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions ---Pagan vrs Heathen Etymology
From:	"Rory" <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:57:27 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Yes and I did not see your name or I would properly greet you.
> You have the literal facts I paraphrased.
> This is just one instance of their copying, borrowing - Stealing?
> From those they now try to discredit, persecute and eliminate.
> Excellent article and there are many Holydays bastardized in the
same
> way.


Yes this is the case in all of the holy days here in North America,
from Easter to Halloween to Yuletide and even our Valentines Day.


> Heathen? Ha! The more educated know the answer to who is more
> heathen and I am too kind to reciprocate in like manner - Pagans
hold
> true to their ideals and tollerences.


Indeed those who are educated at all and not just illiterate and/or
ignorant(specifically etymologists and linguists) know that the
words "Pagan" and "heathen" are synonomous. Heathen meaning "dwellers
of the heath" ..."pagan" meaning "country dwellers", based on the
majority English dictionary definitions. If you wish I can break down
each word for you and prove this.

Indeed, glorious days of Summer Solstice to you also....

All Hail Sol Invictus....

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:27:06 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Heathen Renewal

> Thereafter, all hymns about the birth of the
> Sun were changed to hymns about the birth of the
> "Son".

Salve,

I would respectfully diagree with this assertion. In English the
word "sun" and "son" are homonyms and substitution of one for the
other would not effect the lyrical meter of music. However in Latin
the word for "sun" is "sol" and the word for "son" is "filius." Sol
and filius are not homonyms. As sol and filius have a different
number of syllables substituting one for the other would really screw
up the lyrical meter.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@hotmail.com>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:44:33 -0600

Salvete

I could be wrong but I believe Mosiac law forbids the drinking of non-kosher
wine by observant Jews. This is why wine from fruits other than grapes is
used. For example, the blackberry wine made by Manschiwietz (don't know if
my spelling is correct).

Anyway, I could be wrong. Just what I remember.

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa


>From: G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS <gfr@intcon.net>
>Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
>Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:50:22 -0000
>
>G. Iulius Scaurus M. Ambrosio Belisario salutem dicit.
>
>Salve, M. Ambrosi.
>
> > As to the water into wine miracle -
> > Clarafication:
> > Common people at weddings were not allowed to dring wine, only water.
> > Jesus was trying to reform the strict rules of the times and one of
> > his public displays was allowing everyone at the wedding in Cana to
> > drink wine so metaphorically speaking - he turned the water into wine.
> > All of the other miracles are very similar in nature with logical
> > explanations.
>
>There were no sumptuary laws in Herodian Galilee prohibiting the lower
>social and economic classes from consuming wine at wedding feasts, nor
>any evidence that wine was any less central to ritual occasions among
>Jews of the early first century CE than suggested by the contemporary
>Philo or slightly later Josephus or the somewhat later still
>Palestinian or Babylonian Talmud. This explanation of the "miracle"
>of the marriage feast at Cana (John 2:1-12) is what is sometimes
>jocularly called "nunsense" -- a pious story which decontextualises by
>a false historicism. When subjected to rigorous textual-critical
>study the account in John is related to three topoi which are
>characteristic of the Johannine author/editor and which are brought
>together to make a theological and liturgical point. The first topos
>is that of abundant wine as a symbol of the eschaton (the "coming of
>the kingdom" -- which is also a constant preoccupation of the
>Johannine text) in Old Testament and apocryphal texts with an
>apocalyptic tint (Amos 9;13; Hosea 2:24; Joel 4:18; Isaiah 29:17;
>Jeremiah 31:5; 1 Enoch 10:19 -- likewise, the "new wine" pericope in
>Mark 2:22 and the pentecost account in Acts). The second is the
>marriage feast as metaphor for messianic realisation (Isaiah 54:4-8
>and 62:4-5). The third topos is the feeding-type "miracle" found in
>several Old Testament accounts and the synoptic gospels as well as the
>gospel of John. These topoi were weaved in the Johannine gospel into
>an account which presents Jesus of Nazareth as the
>realised-lord-messiah who embodies nourishment of the community of the
>faithful. The text is a highly elaborated literary and liturgical
>text aimed a propagandising for a very specific Christology, and even
>if one grants that there is a more primitive Aramaic
>sayings-and-stories source underlying both the snyoptic and Johannine
>gospels, the "miracle of the wine at Cana" story isn't a report of an
>historical event. It is an evocation of a symbol which serves to mark
>the opening of Jesus' public ministry in the same way that the "Jesus
>as the true vine" pericope (John 15:1-16:4) brings the public ministry
>to an end in preparation for the passion narrative; this sort of
>chiastic parallelism is central to the composition of the Johannine
>gospel. This text is a very sophisticated work of literary propaganda
>and the attempt to explain the "miracles" outside this complex fabric
>of literary creation, in my view, concedes a kind of prima facie
>historicity to such accounts which close textual-critical and
>literary-critical analysis suggests is unfounded.
>
>Vale.
>
>G. Iulius Scaurus
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:44:33 EDT

In a message dated 6/19/03 3:33:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@callahans.org writes:


> add in my days as an extra playing a Russian Fire Crew Chief in "The
> Hunt for Red October" as more faint qualification material... :)

Sorry, Ben. You weren't very believable...:)

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:50:19 EDT

In a message dated 6/19/03 5:26:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
heathenrenewal@yahoo.com writes:


> Thats in fact, false, and my article (already posted) explained all
> of the reasons, of Sun Day for a Sun God (Mithras) and the
> word "mystery" was used around quotes for obvious reasons

of That's the way I remember my professor explaining it. There is also an
earlier celebration Birth of the Sun day as well. That was also around Dec.
25th.

Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:02:04 -0400

On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 08:44:33PM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/19/03 3:33:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@callahans.org writes:
>
> > add in my days as an extra playing a Russian Fire Crew Chief in "The
> > Hunt for Red October" as more faint qualification material... :)
>
> Sorry, Ben. You weren't very believable...:)

Since you have no idea which face in the control room is the FC Chief
(the designation was "internal" to the set and not published anywhere
as far as I'm aware), you'd have a bit of a time figuring which one to
disbelieve, wouldn't you? :) If you want to disbelieve in someone, try
Sven Ole Thorsen as a Russian bosun. <chortle> They couldn't film any of
the rest of us while he was singing his part of the Soviet Anthem: see,
we were all Russian speakers, and Sven's Russian was, erm, special...

Anyway, I was believable enough to get paychecks all through the
filming - and that's the best mark of approval Hollywood knows.


Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quod bonum, felix faustumque sit!
May it be good, fortunate and prosperous!
-- Words spoken when the Roman senate opened its session. Quoted by Cicero in "De
divitatione"

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:09:59 -0400

G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS <gfr@intcon.net> writes:

> There were no sumptuary laws in Herodian Galilee prohibiting the lower
> social and economic classes from consuming wine at wedding feasts, nor
> any evidence that wine was any less central to ritual occasions among
> Jews of the early first century CE than suggested by the contemporary
> Philo or slightly later Josephus or the somewhat later still
> Palestinian or Babylonian Talmud.[...]

Gaius Iulius, you continue to delight me with your scholarship and
your gift for clear presentation. I don't thank you half enough for
all that you add to our community, but I just felt I had to say
something after reading that marvelous explanation.

Thank you.

-- Marinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:34:23 -0400

Rory <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> writes:

[...]

> Is this the
> typical slovenly "scholarship" I can expect here, or is this just a
> personal problem of yours, specifically?

What you can expect to find here, Rory, is a range of knowledge spanning
everything from university professors to casual interest in the movie
_Gladiator_. Learned discussions are welcome, and I'd be pleased to
see citations in support of any information you may wish to provide
whenever you present it as authoritative.

Beyond that, many of us seek to encourage a spirit of friendly
conviviality here. Arguments and acrimony can be found all over
the net. If you feel that the citizen who commented on your post
was insulting to you, then I don't see it. Your reply to him does
seem far more confrontational than called for.

If, for some reason, you haven't yet read the guidelines to posting
which you received in e-mail after you joined this mailing list,
I recommend that you do so now and then make some effort to adhere
to them.

-- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
Curule Aedile

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:37:14 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus G. Vipsanio Agrippae salutem dicit.

Salve, G. Vipsani.

> I could be wrong but I believe Mosiac law forbids the drinking of
non-kosher
> wine by observant Jews. This is why wine from fruits other than
grapes is
> used. For example, the blackberry wine made by Manschiwietz (don't
know if
> my spelling is correct).
>
> Anyway, I could be wrong. Just what I remember.

Kosher wine can made made from grapes. The requirements for a kosher
wine are : (a.) the equipment used to make the wine is used only for
producing kosher products, (b.) only observant Jews may handle the
wine from grape-picking to sale, unless the wine is mevushal, (c.)
only certified kosher products can be used in the wine's production,
and (d.) the production of the wine is overseen by a
rabbinically-certified expert in the laws of kashrut. The association
of very sweet wines with kosher in the U.S. is an artifact of concord
grapes being used by the first Jewish immigrant communities on the
east coast to make kosher wine; concord grapes need to be heavily
sugared to make something even passingly close to a palatable beverage.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions, Drinking of Wine in the Bible
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 02:29:08 -0000

Salvete omnes,

The book of proverbs mentions about drinking wine. Sorry I don't have
my bibles with me out on location. After arguing with some Cristian
sects who forbid alcholic beverages citing the idea that ancient
wines were really grape juice. I say unto them look at proverbs 33 (I
believe) It says take not "too much" of the wine or you'll feel like
your on a mast of a ship in a stormy sea, the next day you will feel
like you have been bitten by a poisonous serpent and will need to
take more to ease the pain. Yep, been through that before. That
doesn't sound like grape juice. It goes on later to warn about eating
a diet of too much rich food that could well be your ruin. So take
these things moderately seems to be the jist of the old testament. I
believe some of the Protestant sects in the 17th century banned
drinking, cards, music and partying as well as stringing up or
burning some witches to boot. What a sad existance.

Let me remind you of some words of Cardinal Richelieu, famous
Churchman and politician in 17th century made more famous in the 3
Musketeers:

" If God wanted not man to take wine, why did he make it so good!"

Regards,


Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Away
From:	jmath669642reng@webtv.net
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:33:33 -0400 (EDT)

I will be spending the long weekend in Troy, New York, at a reenactment
there. Back on line late Monday or early Tuesday.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Resignation
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:40:03 -0400

Salve Diana Meridia Aurelia

I know that a great many Nova Romans are sadden by your news. While I truly wish you gods speed in you macro life , I wish you could take a sabbatical and return if that is at all possible.


Pax


Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Meridia Aurelia
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Resignation


Salvete Omnes,

I come before you today to announce my resignation from Nova Roma.
I do this for private reasons - none that I would like to discuss in
public. It has taken me a long time to arrive at this decision, and
for this very reason I believe it is the right thing for me to do.

It has been an education and an honor to be part of Nova Roma.
Lucilla Meridia will follow me as head of Gens Meridia, if the
Censores agree. So I will not part and leave behind me a leaderless
gens.
I have received much support and friendship during my time here in
Nova Roma, especially from the members of my own province of
Germania. Gaius Flavius Diocletianus has honored me with a trust I
know I can never repay him for. You have my gratitude, Cai.

To all of you - may the Gods always protect you and lead Nova Roma to
the greatness she aspires to.

Valete,
Diana Meridia Aurelia




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	jan gram <janabc10@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:08:15 -0700 (PDT)

I am not amused at all at the insulting. I expect more civility from you fellow, and don't vent your grudges and complexes and repressions around here, and I don't care who you are.

Rory <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> wrote:--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, jan gram <janabc10@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@y...> wrote:
> . How or why the "seventh"
> day celebration for Christians came to be held on the
> first day of the week— the "day of the Conquering
> Sun"----- remains a "mystery" to modern Christians.
>
>
>
> there is no mystery at all why Christians celebrated Sunday.
Early Christians were all jews (til Paul who founded Christianity as
we know it, more or less, and opened it to the gentiles), so they
observed the Sabbath on Saturday and the next day, which happened to
be Sunday, they met and celebrated Christ.
>

Thats in fact, false, and my article (already posted) explained all
of the reasons, of Sun Day for a Sun God (Mithras) and the
word "mystery" was used around quotes for obvious reasons. I ALREADY
mentioned the Jews sabbath day being on Saturday in the
aforementioned article, so its somewhat moot to simply parrot that
fact. Hardly is it "Obscure information". But I digress. Is this the
typical slovenly "scholarship" I can expect here, or is this just a
personal problem of yours, specifically?

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:14:50 EDT

In a message dated 6/19/03 6:07:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@callahans.org writes:


> :) If you want to disbelieve in someone, try
> Sven Ole Thorsen as a Russian bosun

Well it is the weakest of the francise, so no surprise that the casting
wasn't up to par either.
That was Mace, right? And McTiernan. Rarely do they miss. Although I was
bored to tears with McTiernan direction in Thomas Crown Affair. So maybe he
has lost it. Oh for Predator or the Die Hard days with big Mac.

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Good and Bad Scholarship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:21:31 -0000

Salvete omnes,

Just a few points to make on this idea:

1) Every day conversation it is not always pratical do debate like a
formal Ivy League Society. Subjects and ideas change every few
postings or minutes; I, as well as others am doing many other things
while working around this list and like to express my ideas in a
quick and efficient way. I proved years ago that I am capable of some
sort of thought by finishing a University degree so I don't want to
have to justify every idea with footnotes and bibliographies. If I am
in grave error on a subject I'm quite happy to be corrected.

2) In world history one man's truth is another man's lie. If, for
example I read the book on the American Civil war written in Vermont
as previously posted, the war is called the war of emancipation or
the war that shed blood to unify a great nation. In Alabama or the
Southern states the book is called the war of northern agression or
the steamrolling of the south. Similarily I debated about Julius
Caesar on another list; I read he was great and respected and not
heavily condemned after all the centuries because though ambitious he
was always right up on the front line frequently risked his own life
to encourage his sometimes floundering men. My worthy opponents say
he was just an ambitious greedy, power hungry meglomaniac who wrecked
Republican Rome. Every author or professor has a different point of
view depending on when he lived and what his cultural norms are.
Because I grew up in a former colony from the mid 50's 1/3 of the
world's maps were in pink so I was taught about the positive aspects
of colonialism. Along came the 60's, societal changes and by the 70's
in University we were all being re-educated about the evils of
colonialism and former terrorists became folk heroes.

3)Not all of us can read books like Caesar's civil or Gaellic wars in
original Latin, Aristotle in Greek or even begin to know Egyptian
hyrogliphics or decipher the Aztec codices. We therefore rely on what
other authors and translators said. Very few of us with respect to
history have never really had an original thought of our own. I guess
that's what separates innovators and real geniuses from the rest of
us. Our thoughts and data, especially in history are derived and
influenced by the thoughts of other authors. So when someone
expresses an idea that seems to go totally against our beliefs or
values we should blame the authors his opponent read. Not the
opponent in particular. Most histories attack historical facts from
many different points of view and values and can often seen to
contradict one another.

4) Taking point 3 into consideration, it seems every institution be
it political or religious has had its good points, bad points works
of love and influence from the devils themselves. No society with its
political or religious institutions can claim perfection or a real
golden age for its citizens over the last 5500 years or so of
recorded history.

5) In any sort of discussion or even a debate we should be careful
not to walk into the classic fallacies. Fallicies are logically
faulty statements, ideas or actions that tend to crush the validity
of an arguement. On these lists I've noticed the following:

A) Hastey generalizations - self explanitory

B) Ad Hominum - Attacking the person instead of the arguement

C) Appeal to emotion (eg My country right or wrong! Don't dare
condemn the arena! I'm proud to be a Roman!)

D) Appeal to Authoriy (You know - I don't use creationist schools to
be my source for a paper on possible extra terrestrial evolution of
microrganisms in the martian soil)

If you walk into any of these fallacies (easily done sometimes) any
debating society will slash points off your arguments deeming them
invalid.


Finally, I think we should all use Scarus's posts as a good model to
strive for "when" we do choose to have the more academic type
discussions. It sure looks like everything he writes is well
researched and thought out. As I said a few weeks ago, when this
gentleman writes he never does or needs to attack our person. That
nooooooot necessary! as Colonel Sito said in River Quai. Just his
style of writing and knowledge make me realize it is better to do a
little less talking and more listening for sure.



Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Eleusis
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:23:05 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Eleusis":

http://www.culture.gr/2/21/211/21103a/e211ca04.html

This site, maintained by the Hellenic Ministrry of Culture (and
somewhat tourism-oriented), contains text and detailed photoghraphs of
the cult center of the Eleusian Mysteries. The site is in English.

Two views of the relief from Eleusis may be seen at:

http://www.culture.gr/2/21/214/21405m/e21405m2.html#4

http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/dg/lectures/ma/eleusis_relief.htm

Dr. David Gill (Dept. of Classics and Ancient History, Univ. of Wales,
Swansea) has an excellent bibliography on Eleusis at:

http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/dg/lectures/ma/eleusis.htm

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Good and Bad Scholarship
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:22:14 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Q. Lanio Paulino et Gn. Equitio Marino salutem dicit.

Salvete, Q. Lani et Gn. Equiti.

You have my thanks for your extremely generous words. although I must
demur at the idea of my postings being some sort of paradigm. I bring
a huge advantage to historical discussions in this forum in doing
history for a living and the way I write is more a matter of years of
experience as a teacher and researcher than anything else. In the
matter of the wedding feast at Cana miracle pericope, I entered play
with a stacked deck, since I taught a seminar on "miracles,
miracle-workers, and the politics of the miraculous in the classical
world" several years ago and have read most of the pertinent
literature on miracles in the synoptic gospels and John and I have a
longstanding research interest in the way popular and elite attitudes
toward the miraculous evolved from the first century CE to the early
middle ages -- so it is something about which I have given much
thought. I'm also interested in the way miracles and other motifs
shifted between and among the Hellenistic and oriental mystery
religions and early Christianity, culminating in the book on which I
am currently working on the influence of the theology, cultus, and
iconography of Isis on Mariology in the early church of the Latin
West (most work on this sort of topic has concentrated hitherto on the
phenomenon in the Greek and Coptic East).

If the topic were to shift to the innards of computers and their
software, or petroleuml engineering, or any of the thousands of fields
about which I know next to nothing, I'd prefer to keep silent and be
thought a fool rather than post and remove all doubt on the matter. I
rather like the mix of different backgrounds and perspectives that NR
affords and, while I am very grateful for the praise, I wouldn't want
anyone to think that a fully worked out hypothesis and a bibliography
ready at hand is a prerequisite for entering the historical affray
here. I have much enjoyed the comradery I've found in NR, and that is
a debt which I try to repay by providing what historical insight I can
(fortunately I have not yet had to dip into my stash of off-colour
Latin jokes to keep my balance out of the red :-).

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A few Activities of Roman Interest in Archeon Village, Holland
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:55:00 +0200

Salvete citizens,

I realize that a few citizens may be coming to Europe this summmer and here
is a place that shouldn't be missed: Archeon Village. There is an entire
vollage dedicated to the 1st century Romans. For more info in English, go to
http://www.archeon.nl/en/i_events.htm so that you can see photos of the
Roman Temple, etc.
For the few people that speak Dutch on this list, go to
http://www.archeon.nl
Vale,
Diana Moravia

August 2 - 17 --Archeon Village
Great Roman Festival
For sixteen days LEGIO II AUGUSTA will give interesting demonstrations and
exciting shows which will give a picture of life in the provinces of the
Roman Empire. Instructive, exciting and above all great fun. Attention does
not only focus on Roman soldiers but also on women, lawyers, craftsmen and
slaves. An event full of fascinating, Roman customs presented with a British
feeling for style and tradition.

September 27 + 28
2003 years of History in Action:
(National Platform Living History)
The more than four hundred members of the LPLG present their favourite
period from Dutch history. Romans, Celts, Franks, Frisians, Vikings,
Medieval men, women and children, Napoleonic people etc. The absolute
highlight of the year.

Theme Park of the THE ROMAN PERIOD-- Open from April 18 through September
Around 55 BC the first Roman armies, under the command of Julius Caesar,
arrive in these parts. The territories of the Germanic and Celtic tribes who
live here are conquered and the inhabitants submitted. The first Roman
Emperor, Augustus, tries to extend the Roman territory as far as the River
Elbe, but he fails. After the crushing defeat of two Roman legions east of
the River Rhine, the Emperor Claudius abandons the plan to conquer the
Germans as far as the Elbe and decides to make the Rhine the official border
of the empire. Along the Rhine a series of forts are built, connected by a
border road: the 'limes'.

The arrival of the Romans changes the way of life of the native people
completely. A Roman form of administration is introduced, commerce
flourishes and an extensive road system is constructed. The native people
seem to be able to adopt the customs of daily Roman life.

The Romans founded their towns in conveniently situated places, such as at
the crossroads of trade routes, near important rivers or at native places of
worship.

In Archeon a small Roman town has been reconstructed: Traiectum ad Rhenum
('TAR', crossing place at the Rhine). In TAR we find: a potter's house, a
small temple, a public bathhouse, a Roman inn and an amphitheatre.

THE TEMPLE
The Roman Empire knew many religions and religious customs. Rituals such as
offerings, vows and spells were part of daily life. In general, the Romans
were tolerant of foreign religions and the only thing they would demand of
the native population was to worship the official Roman state gods as well,
next to their own gods. When in the course of time the Roman influence
increased, the native gods and rituals were more and more assimilated into
the Roman religion.

The temple complex in TAR consists of a walled forecourt with a temple. In
the worship area (cella) is the statue of the goddess Nehalennia, goddess of
fertility, prosperity and trade and also patroness of children and tradesmen
(especially those sailing to Britain.

THE POTTER'S HOUSE
During the Roman Period most people lived in the countryside. Only a small
part of the population lived in the towns. Besides the wealthy citizens,
who lived in big luxurious houses, there were the tradesmen and craftsmen.
The lived in 'simple' houses like the one reconstructed in Traiectum ad
Rhenum. Here lives the potter.

The earthenware industry was an important part of the Roman economy. Thanks
to the stamps (signatures) of the producers, we know exactly where the
pottery was made. Roof-tiles often carried the stamp of the relevant
military unit.

THE PUBLIC BATHS
The bathhouse in Traiectum ad Rhenum is a reconstruction of the Thermae
found in Heerlen, in the south of the Netherlands. There, the original
foundations can still be seen in the 'Thermenmuseum'. Next to hygiene the
baths also had a social function. It was place to meet people, to hear the
latest news or gossips, to do business or discuss the political situation.

Men and women bathed at separate times. There were special hours for men,
women and the elderly and the sick. The fact that, at one stage during his
reign, the emperor Hadrian declared a ban on the 'balnea mixta' proves that
this rule was not always strictly observed.

The Romans considered taking alternating hot and cold baths to be very
healthy and relaxing. Before starting the actual bathing the men did
athletic exercises or played ball games in the inner courtyard (palaestra).
After this they went through the various parts of the baths on a standard
route.

THE ROMAN INN
The Inn in Archeon is a reconstruction of a 2nd century Roman inn. Visitors
to the Roman inn were high-ranking officers, tradesmen, couriers and
soldiers. Good roads and safe inns were essential for proper communication
in the Roman Empire. Soldiers and couriers with important news or goods had
to be able to travel in a fast and reliable way throughout the Empire.
Resting-places like these inns offered safe accommodation and a chance to
change the horses.

The Inn has a dining room (Triclinium) with beautiful wall paintings. The
theme is the grape harvest: Bacchus, the god of wine, inspecting the grapes.
During the meal the Romans would recline on three couches, which were put
together in a U-shape. Hence, the name of this dining room: triclinium,
meaning three couches.

The restaurant in the Inn has Roman dishes on the menu, based on recipes
from the cookery book by the famous Roman cook Apicius.

THE ARENA
Gladiator fights were a popular form of entertainment for the Romans.
Originally, these fights were organised by private individuals at funerals.
Later on these gladiator fights lost their holy character and became a way
of winning the favour of the people.

Every day in Archeon ends with a gladiator fight in the arena.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Another place of Roman Interest: Gallo-Roman Archeological Site Aubechies in Belgium
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:42:56 +0200

Salvete again,

Here is a must see if you are travelling near the South of Belgium or the
North of France: the Gallo-Roman Archelogical Site of Aubechies.
http://www.archeosite.be The website is awful but if you keep clicking (and
don't get dizzy) you'll see a lot of nice photos of the Temple, the Domus
Romana, the museum and the area (and find some English texts). This
archeological site is located on the Roman road that went from Rome to
Cologne Germany. if you drive around the beautiful tree filled landscape,
you find lots of small museums dedicated to Gallo-roman archeology.

Aubechies Archeological site also hosts a Gallo-Roman weekend on August 30 &
31 complete with military reenactment by Legion XXII of France, a Roman
meal, a battle between the Celts and the Romans and a ritual at the Roman
Temple late at night. Plus there are are also craftsman and lots of people
walking around in period dress. The funny thing is that the same reenactment
group are Celtic Barbarians during the day and Roman priests at night! But
it is very sincerely done! Two years ago, a really drunk guy kept disrupting
the ritual and after 15 minutes or so of this, an extremely annoyed
Priestess of Venus finally lost her temper and shouted at him to shut the
**** up. He complied :-)

Valete,
Diana Moravia
__
Located in one of the most beautiful villages in Wallonia, the Aubechies
Archéosite proposes to take you on a journey trough six thousand years. This
period corresponds to the gradual end of Prehistory and the beginning of
what will be "our history". The Archéosite is a life museum and regroups
houses that were recreated according to archaeological research and each one
is an example of a particular stage in this evolution: Neolithic, Bronze,
Iron, Gallic and Gallo-Roman ages. The furniture makes these houses even
more attractive. You can visit the houses all year round. A Gallo-Roman
villa is being built and will be open to the public in the september 2003.
At weekends, between Easter and beginning of November lots of craftsmen work
on the site and demonstrate their abilities in: baking bread, weaving wool,
spinning, production of pottery, bronze casting, iron forge, carving bone
and wood sculpture.
_______________
Domus romana
In 150 PD, in an area that would later become the south of France, a
well-off craftsman or rich owner had a house built. Some twenty centuries
later the remains of that house were uncovered during excavation. The Domus
Romana in Aubechies is the replica of that house. They used the same
materials as those used by our Gallo-Roman ancestors. They tried, as much as
possible, to use local resources and so did we. That's why the stone from
Basècles was used for the foundations and the stone from Grandglise was used
for the walls. Thanks to a recipe by Vitruve we could re-create the mortar:
equal quantities of sand, chalk and crushed bricks; it has got a pink
colour. To ensure the stability of the walls double rows of stones made of
baked clay were put at regular intervals.
The interior of the house was also re-created in the Gallo-Roman way. Part
of the house is a museum. The walls have been decorated with frescoes
following the models of those uncovered on a nearby site in 1974.

In Blicquy, in the Gallo-Roman Museum you can admire the many magnificent
objects found on the dig. These objects witness how our Gallo-Roman
ancestors used to live and work...
Plain dishes for the poor, richly decorated and sigillated dishes for those
who were well-off.
Bronze objects devoted to the numerous Gods
Fibulas , different jewels and coins
Glassware and especially a magnificent carafe (unique in Belgium) witnessing
the expertise and the skilfulness of those craftsmen.
All of which makes the Museum a very exciting trip.
__________________
Gallo-Roman Weekend:


THE WEEKEND OF EXPERIMENTAL Archeology

Archeological site Aubechies-Beloeil will host a Week-End of Experimental
Archaeology on 30 and 31 August 2003. During all this weekend, starting from
14:00, various craftsmen as well as Belgian and foreign archaeologists are
invited to share the fruit of their experiments. They will show the public
various demonstrations of experimental archaeology, concerning the time of
prehistory until the Gallo-Roman period: metalworking, wood, stone, bone,
flint, the manufacture and the cooking of pottery, weaving, breadmaking,
Roman food and lots more. Shows & entertainment will be ongoing throughout
the day.

The agenda of both days is as follows, beginning at 14:00 PM :

The XXII Roman Legion of Bavay (Bagacum) France

Gallic entertainment by the Children of Finn, France

Gallic entertainment by the Eburons, Belgium

Foederati (?): entertainment on the life at the time of the great
migrations, 400 to 500 years BC

Celtic Music by The Bumblebees

Celtic Music by Yves And Company

______________
DAYS OF THE INHERITANCE

This year the Archeological Site will take part in the "Days of the
Inheritance" Saturday September 13 2003 by showcasing the topic "the most
beautiful residences of Belgium". The Roman villa will be accessible to the
public as well as the Domus Romana. during this special day, there will be
free entrance to the Domus Romana and the Roman villa.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] More places to visit in Belgica
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:24:43 +0200

Salvete again,

Last email on this subject. I regularly get citizens and non-citizens asking
for Roman things to do in my area, besides that I had to look up this info
anyway :-p

Valete,
Diana Moravia

Wervik-- Roman Festival October 2-6
Another town which honors its Roman ancestry. One of the popular places is
the site where Julius Caesar tied his horse to a tree. I'm assuming it is
not the same exact tree. They have a Roman Wervick Festival organized each
year. This year the Festival will take place from October 2 through 6with
Legio II Augusta on hand for military reenactment. There is also a Roman
meal and (supposedly) Roman music, but it sounded awfully like the Celtic
music that I heard a few weeks before... But the meal is great and the best
yet: the stands! Lots of Roman books and jewelry for sale!

Tongeren-- the oldest city of Belgium which was founded by the Romans.
Ambiorix gave Caesar a hard time there but he ended up only succeeding in
getting a large statue of himself put in the town square :-) The place is
just loaded with Roman archaeological sites and a Gallo-Roman museum. This
was the location of the last Nova Rally. If you are in the area, don't
forget to look me up- I live 5 minutes away.

Tienen--
A very small village but nice to see especially if you are from the US and
don't see many old small towns in Europe. There are ongoing escavations of
Roman sites in the area and the museum showcases the remnats of a Temple to
Mithras which was found about 5 years ago. There is also a permanent
collection of utensils and decorative objects originating from Gallo-Roman
villas and tumuli excavated in and around the town. In the first centuries
A.D. Tienen was a market village which grew prosperous beside the main road
from Tongeren to Cassel at the crossing of the Grote Gete.

NAMUR
Like Tongeren, another area that Caesar went to and had to put up with those
nasty Celts :-) This time a guy named Dumnorix.
They organize a Roman Day at the end of September, but the date is as yet
unannounced. The citadel is amazing and has been there for a thousand years
or so.

________________
Plucked from a website: I haven't been to these places yet.

Gallo-Roman archeopark of Malagne
B- 5580 ROCHEFORT Malagne la Gallo Romaine, Malagne, 1 Tél: 084/22 21 03
Fax: 084/21 25 82

On the roots of our ancestors... Avé!
On a site covering more than 5 acres you can visit one of the largest Gallic
villas, its baths, forge, barns and cultivated land.
Following a trail or using audio-visual aids, you will discover the
Gallo-Roman way of life and the archaeological work which is being carried
out.
We organise "discovery days" for adults and school groups all year round.
(bookings only).
Come and taste our Gallo-Roman regional products and chose from a menu
straight from the past.

... discovering an old farm
Malagne is also a center for agricultural research with eco-friendly
breeding and farming methods.
We cultivate the land and work like the Gallo-Romans used to, following the
rhythm of seasons
http://www.tourismerochefort.be/malagne_an.htm
__________________

Gallo-Roman museum, Ath
B- 7800 ATH Rue de Nazareth, 2 Tél: 068/26 92 33 - 35 Fax: 068/28 27 63
The city of Ath, famous for its giants, is located at the confluence of two
rivers. The city with its 18 villages has 25.000 inhabitants.
This modern museum presents two exceptionally well preserved and restored
Gallo-Roman boats (2nd century) and invites you to share the Gallo-Roman
life thanks to up-to-date techniques.
In an attractive way the museum presents the Gallo-Roman boats which were
discovered in Pommeroeul, as well as a splendid collection of objects, the
evidence of the activities of our ancestors.
In search of our origins, the visitor goes back in time to discover objects
from the past, which are brought to life with modern techniques
(reconstruction, interactive information display,…).
http://www.ath.be/en/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Historical CLothing
From:	"zak29577" <casca@post.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:51:23 -0000

Salve Iulia!

Thank you *very* much for your reply. After reading it over a
couple of times, I had a great idea (probably not new). My hobby is
model railroading, and I work with N scale - small.

With a strip of velcro at the hem, I can attach the tunic to the
desk I'm working at so that those very small parts won't drop and
hide themselves in the rug anymore.

Again, thank you for your help.

Vale,

G. Ursus Casca

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Karen Blackburn <Karen-Julia@m...>
wrote:
> I just used 2 pieces of fabric 40" wide by the measurement of
shoulder to knee plus 6" for hems etc. This material is wide enough
to allow for short sleeves but if longer ones are needed (and in
Ireland they frequently are) I just measure around the widest part
of the arm and add 4" for comfort and seams and then around the hand
plus 2" and shape the material from the shoulder to wrist as
necessary. I sew this in at the top of the side seam and then sew
from the wrist up to the armhole and then down to the hem in one
go. For the neck I actually shape a basic shape using a plate,
larger at the front and smaller at the back for comfort, but you can
also just leave a plain slit for the head to go through, whatever is
more comfortable for the wearer. Very quick and easy, and if you
are lucky enough to be able to use the material side to side for the
length, you don't even need to hem. I use linen or cotton, with a
basic sleeveless brushed cotton undertunic for cold days. For
special occasions the remains of silk material imported from China
has been found. Embroidery was also used mainly along the hems for
anyone keen enough to add this decoration for special tunics.
Leaving aside the extra decoration, I can sew 3/4 tunics in a day
for my husband. Sorry for the delay in answering but I am having
trouble with my email at the moment.
>
> Iulia Vespasia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Paula Drennan" <dragonpink@satx.rr.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:00:37 -0500

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@hotmail.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions


> Salvete
>
> I could be wrong but I believe Mosiac law forbids the drinking of
non-kosher
> wine by observant Jews. This is why wine from fruits other than grapes is
> used. For example, the blackberry wine made by Manschiwietz (don't know
if
> my spelling is correct).
<SNIPPED for space>

Salve,
Actually, as I recall Kashruth, wine can be made from grapes as long as it
is made from grapes grown by Jews for Jews. In fact, all Kosher wines are
made by Jews for Jews. It goes back to when pagans would grow the grapes and
worship their God/dess as part of the planting and harvesting and fermenting
processes. It is against the Mitzvot to do anything like the pagans.

Vale,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:24:55 -0000

Salve, G. Iulius Scaurus

LOL, yes, after checking I did find this to be accurate. I should
know better than to post something I did not personally validate but
took anothers recanting verbatim. Though I did find what makes even
more sense regarding the "borrowing" of our beliefs with particular
emphasis on Dionysus.

The story that I was able to verify though states that the water-into-
wine of Cana is the central mystery of the miraculous God Dionysus,
celebrated on the very day of his festival, and the woman with the
issue of blood is a statement of healing to rival Aesclepius,
portraying his own statue. All these were cultural figures impinging
quite closely on the spiritual life of Palestine, and a response to
them was necessary for Christianity to claim their adherents.

Barbara Theiring of the Genesis of Eden Diversity encyclopedia has an
Essene interpretation which deserves consideration. The water and
wine are the first baptism and completion of the apprenticeship. By
turning water into wine, Jesus is thus metaphorically short-
circuiting the process in one gnostic awakening at the feast. Where
Mary and by implication James and the brothers fit into this Essene
gnosticism is a further intriguing question.

I knew there would eventually be a logical explanation. He was a
great man and the propaganda surrounding his life a work of art that
impresses me beyond no end but there has been 2000 years of fine
tuning. If we look at the Roman records of his life we would only
find him to be an upstart and criminal but I like to think of him
more as a very intelligent, peaceful man with extreme political
talent.

Thank you very much for the information and keeping me honest. I
appreciate any assistance you can offer to double check my postings
to ensure I keep to the facts.

Vale




SNIP
> There were no sumptuary laws in Herodian Galilee prohibiting the
lower
> social and economic classes from consuming wine at wedding feasts
SNIP

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Mithraism (converted from "Past Legal Occasions")
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:31:41 -0000

Salve Gaius,
Very nice link,
thank you
Vale

Snip

I ran across the following link today to a
> > site with more, for any who are interested:
> >
> >
>
http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Pe
> > riods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html#int
>
> Indeed its a great source of information, as well as the superb
> Mithraeum:
>
> http://www.mithraeum.org/
>
> Regards!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:36:34 -0400

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to G. Iulius Scaurus. Salve.

I fear, my fellow citizen, that you are very much mistaken about wine in the ancient world--it was as common as coke, tea, and coffee are today in America. Wine (usually mixed with water) was the most common drink. In the New Testament, Luke (Ch. 2, Verse 3 & Verses 9-10):

"When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, 'They have no wine.'

"And when the steward tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom and said to him, 'Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."

Consider the context here. Jesus & his mother were the son (as far as everyone else was concerned) and wife of a carpenter; a respectable but lower middle class position in Judea. So even a lower middle class wedding could expect to have good wine.
Remember that the annona which fed Rome during the Principate & Empire consisted of wine, salt, and bread or grain.
Wine was the common man's drink in the ancient world.
Vale.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:44:36 -0400

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to all concerned. Salvete.

Would some of you like some cream to go with those claws?

When discussing religion, it is important to remember that the line between free discussion and blasphemy is a very fine line. Many neopagans and reconstruction pagans, have had bad experiences with Christianity & Judaism. These experiences have led to a complete rejection of the "faith of their fathers & mothers" as they sought something completely different for the nourishment of their spirit. Other have gone to philosophy and embraced stoicism, epicureanism, neoplatonism, et cetera.
Let's try to keep if friendly here, quirites, and remember that it may not be sloppy scholarship but just a misunderstanding or an inability to comprehend a point. Before you make an offensive statement on the mainlist, think about it. You could just as easily follow the tact of the character Cyrano de Bergerac and make it humorous as well as enlightening.

Vale.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Mithraism (converted from "Past Legal Occasions")
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT)

--- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
<mballetta@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Salve Gaius,
> Very nice link,
> thank you
> Vale

No problem, I find the power of Mithras to be very
transcending this time of the year....

All Hail Sol Invictus!

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."


http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions ---Pagan vrs Heathen Etymology
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:50:08 -0000

Yes Lupercalia - Valentines not to mention Groundhog day, lol.

Snip
>
> Yes this is the case in all of the holy days here in North America,
> from Easter to Halloween to Yuletide and even our Valentines Day.
>
>SNIP
> Indeed, glorious days of Summer Solstice to you also....
>
> All Hail Sol Invictus....

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:54:26 -0700 (PDT)

> Beyond that, many of us seek to encourage a spirit
> of friendly
> conviviality here. Arguments and acrimony can be
> found all over
> the net. If you feel that the citizen who commented
> on your post
> was insulting to you, then I don't see it. Your
> reply to him does
> seem far more confrontational than called for.


My apologies...to you and the other gentleman...These
things are too easy to misunderstand while using
thesae medium. In the future I will be more cautious
in my approach, even if I shall strongly disagree.

Solar Regards, Rory

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."


http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:59:32 -0000

Salve Quintus,

You do make sense for song and word.
I believe it was more in the later English speaking countries where
Sun and Son were easily interchanged in meaning but I couldn't say
for sure.
Vale

Snip
>
> I would respectfully diagree with this assertion. In English the
> word "sun" and "son" are homonyms and substitution of one for the
> other would not effect the lyrical meter of music. However in
Latin
> the word for "sun" is "sol" and the word for "son" is "filius."
Sol
> and filius are not homonyms. As sol and filius have a different
> number of syllables substituting one for the other would really
screw
> up the lyrical meter.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:15:38 -0000

Salve Gaius,
You could be right but I can't say for sure without validation of my
facts. My original tale may be incorrect because it was second if
not third hand information.
I thank you for the vote of confidance though.
In the end it doesn't much matter. Those stories are tales of tales
of tales, retold ad nauseum till they can't possibly represent the
original circumstances. Not to mention there was a purpose behind
the telling to teach a lesson or influence. They are subject to
speculation and are definately cicumspect.

The purpose of this discourse is to enlighten ourselves, no not
accept (especially my tales, lol) without question. We are not lambs
being led to slaughter. We are intelligent people who want to know
and understand and if you can't prove rationally or logically or if
your only answer is "Because it's faith" - that is no answer or
person to follow.
Only in the Military should one take order without question.

> I could be wrong but I believe Mosiac law forbids the drinking of
non-kosher
> wine by observant Jews. This is why wine from fruits other than
grapes is
> used. For example, the blackberry wine made by Manschiwietz (don't
know if
> my spelling is correct).
>
> Anyway, I could be wrong. Just what I remember.
>
> Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
>
>SNIP

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:32:19 -0000

Salve Fabius,
If I am repeating what is already known or has been said, I'm sorry:
The Yule or Winter solstice is the time to celebrate the rebirth of
the Sun and the Son of the God and Goddess. It is the opposite
Solstice Holiday of the one this Saturday.
The weekend will be the longest day with the shortest night. Sunday
begins the waning of daylight though it will be getting warmer in
most countries.
In December it is inverted. Since the beginning of time we have
gathered in this season to celebrate the rebirth of the Sun.
On the Winter Solstice - the darkest of nights the Goddess becomes
the Great Mother Isis, Diana, and once again gives birth to the Sun
God Sol, Mithras, Horus beginning the yearly cycle anew bringing new
light and hope to all the World.
On the longest night of winter flares the spark of hope
The Sacred Fire, The Light of the World.
We gather to welcome the new light.
As we join the Goddess in greeting the new Sun
we also welcome the new light within ourselves.

Remember our holidays represent the forces of Nature in an
agricultural society. Our Gods and Goddesses are personifications of
these forces. It may be a simple way to understand them but in no
way makes their affects any less true or real.

SNIP
There is also an
> earlier celebration Birth of the Sun day as well. That was also
around Dec.
> 25th.
>
> Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:40:42 -0000

Salve,
Caius
Or should I say Nasdrovia Tobarish.
Couldn't help but laugh at the thought of a Sven (thought of St. Olaf
stories running through my head) singing the Russian National
Anthem. Great movie by the way even with Sean "the man" Connery
playing a Russian with his accent - he is always credible.
Couldn't say which person was the FC myself and I'm sure that was a
friendly poke for fun about being unbelievable but the COOK as the
KGB agent was unbelievable, lol.



SNIP>
> Since you have no idea which face in the control room is the FC
Chief
> (the designation was "internal" to the set and not published
anywhere
> as far as I'm aware), you'd have a bit of a time figuring which one
to
> disbelieve, wouldn't you? :) If you want to disbelieve in someone,
try
> Sven Ole Thorsen as a Russian bosun. <chortle> They couldn't film
any of
> the rest of us while he was singing his part of the Soviet Anthem:
see,
> we were all Russian speakers, and Sven's Russian was, erm,
special...
>
>SNIP

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions, Drinking of Wine in the Bible
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:55:30 -0000

Salve Quintus,
LMAO, Richelieu was a riot, didn't he have something to do with
establishing postal service too? I loved the politics of the church
representatives. They were more than Macchiavelian, they were cut
throat viscious; very impressive. Wasn't Lucrezia Borgia the
daughter of a known Pope? She and her brother have their own
reputation for manipulation that I can never retell with due justice.

Back to your topic, yes, I can't understand not taking advantage of
all the earth has to give (in moderation, lol, of course). To think
there are those who ban dancing and singing - how utterly lame!
Though I am against violence to any Pagans and Witches are Pagans
like to our Cybelles.



>SNIP
> believe some of the Protestant sects in the 17th century banned
> drinking, cards, music and partying as well as stringing up or
> burning some witches to boot. What a sad existance.
>
> Let me remind you of some words of Cardinal Richelieu, famous
> Churchman and politician in 17th century made more famous in the 3
> Musketeers:
>
> " If God wanted not man to take wine, why did he make it so good!"
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Good and Bad Scholarship
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:23:14 -0000

Salve Quintus,
Wise words indeed.
I wish I were less the philosopher and more the scholar. I hope to
learn as time goes on.
A man with no skills can learn but a man with no honor has nothing.

To attain knowledge, add something everyday;
To attain wisdon, remove something everyday.
Wu Wei
To know that knowledge is ignorance is noble;
To regard ignorance as wisdom is evil.
Kwai Chang Cain - lol


SNIP
>
> Finally, I think we should all use Scarus's posts as a good model
to
> strive for "when" we do choose to have the more academic type
> discussions. It sure looks like everything he writes is well
> researched and thought out. As I said a few weeks ago, when this
> gentleman writes he never does or needs to attack our person. That
> nooooooot necessary! as Colonel Sito said in River Quai. Just his
> style of writing and knowledge make me realize it is better to do a
> little less talking and more listening for sure.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Eleusis
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:25:33 -0000

Salve and thank you,
An excellent site, very informative,
Vale and thank you again.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to "Eleusis":
>
> http://www.culture.gr/2/21/211/21103a/e211ca04.html
>
> This site, maintained by the Hellenic Ministrry of Culture (and
> somewhat tourism-oriented), contains text and detailed photoghraphs
of
> the cult center of the Eleusian Mysteries. The site is in English.
>
> Two views of the relief from Eleusis may be seen at:
>
> http://www.culture.gr/2/21/214/21405m/e21405m2.html#4
>
>
http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/dg/lectures/ma/eleusis_relief.htm
>
> Dr. David Gill (Dept. of Classics and Ancient History, Univ. of
Wales,
> Swansea) has an excellent bibliography on Eleusis at:
>
> http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/dg/lectures/ma/eleusis.htm
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Good and Bad Scholarship
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:29:25 -0000

Salve Gaius,
I'm enthralled and would love to hear more if you have the time and
patience.
Good luck on your book and I would love to know when you get it
published.
Vale



Snip
I bring
> a huge advantage to historical discussions in this forum in doing
> history for a living and the way I write is more a matter of years
of
> experience as a teacher and researcher than anything else.
SNIP

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A few Activities of Roman Interest in Archeon Village, Holland
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:34:28 -0000

Salve Domina Diana,
Looks interesting and I've never been to the Netherlands before.
Isn't that where Peter Pan Lives? LOL, just joking.
Thanks for the information.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:
> Salvete citizens,
>
> I realize that a few citizens may be coming to Europe this summmer
and here
> is a place that shouldn't be missed: Archeon Village. There is an
entire
> vollage dedicated to the 1st century Romans. SNIP

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:45:19 +0200

Salve Senior Consul,
Salvete citizens,

< If I get an OK from the Populus with this proposal I will
<get my "Officina Iuris et Rei Politicae" to start working on a new
<lex for the Comitia Populi Tributa too.

Unfortunately the only person who has replied regarding this proposal has
been my Tribune colleague Didius Sceptius. Honestly, I think that the email
was so long that no one read it. At best only a handful of us are *really*
interested in a new electoral proposal, but a new electoral proposal mixed
in between 10 pages in size 10 font is more of an endurance test. Any chance
of a very trimmed version being sent to this list so that the citizens with
less stamina than I do will read it? I think then a more accurate assessment
of what the Populus believes could be felt. As it stands now, since no one
shouts 'NO' it will be thought of as a 'yes, this is great!'

In any case, I have been giving electoral reform a lot of thought these last
2 days, and I am not even sure that we need a change at all. The multiple
run-offs are less an electoral procedure problem and more an inactive
citizen problem. I think that in the main election around 300 citizens voted
which is a shame since the Album Civium lists 1927 citizens. Such a low
voter turnout with 1500 or so inactive citizens just take up space in tribes
and centuries make it difficult for any candidate to get a majority. This
was the problem with the Tribune run-offs. I think the Census will nearly
eliminate the run-off problem, assuming that the 1500 potential "socius"
don't have voting rights and won't be listed in a century. I'm assuming that
they won't be able to vote and won't be in a century since they will be
listed as an 'ally' and not a citizen.

Honestly this new procedure seems a little too weighty considering that we
are talking about 300 or so votes. I could clearly see the writing styles
change in the proposal at least twice and so I know that a lot of poeple
must have worked very hard on this. I really sincerely apologize and I am
expecting a lot of people to be angry with me, but I think that if we change
our electoral system, a simple "the citizen who gets the majority of
*voting* centuries wins" is good enough.

I hope that the Rogatores lets us know what they think of this proposal
since they are the ones who would have to do the practical side.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:52:39 -0000

Salve F. Lalerius Secundus
Great intro and my apologies if I "meowed",lol.
I took it for granted that everyone here is Pagan.
To think that there are christians among us sheds a new light on the
interpretation of these postings.
Perspective surely does lend another truth to reality and I hope that
if anyone was offended, it wasn't intentional; these are my actual
beliefs and I thought they were shared by all.
I feel responsible for starting this conversation but it has
continued to be a fun discussion for me and I am learning much about
the other Citizens as well as the topic at hand.


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to all concerned. Salvete.
>
> Would some of you like some cream to go with those claws?
>
>SNIP

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:11:25 +0200

Salve, Diana Moravia Aventina.

I cut and sliced a lot in the texts below, for the sake of brevity, but
I hope they will still contain their original meaning.

Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Honestly, I think that the email was
> so long that no one read it. At best
> only a handful of us are *really*
> interested in a new electoral
> proposal, but a new electoral proposal
> mixed in between 10 pages in size 10
> font is more of an endurance test.

I think you are mistaken in how many are interested in how voting will
proceed, and I know you are mistaken regarding the extent of the text.
As Caeso answered your earlier complaint on the length, it's about 4
pages in size 12. That shouldn't be too troublesome a digest for any
interested citizen reasonably familiar with the roman voting system.

Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> The multiple run-offs are less an
> electoral procedure problem and more
> an inactive citizen problem. I think
> that in the main election around 300
> [of 1927] citizens voted. Such a low
> voter turnout with 1500 or so inactive
> citizens make it difficult for any
> candidate to get a majority. This was
> the problem with the Tribune run-offs.
> I think the Census will nearly
> eliminate the run-off problem.

The thing is, all inactive citizens are already in either an urban tribe
or one century (193?) since they haven't paid their taxes. Since they're
sharing that space with any number of non-paying yet active citizens,
the odds for those tribes/centuries NOT casting a vote is minimal, to
say the least. As so, I do not believe inactive citizens, future socii,
have caused a problem with neither the tribune run-offs nor any other
votes/elections since we first implemented taxes.

Our problem is another, and requires a different solution, such as the
one proposed by Caeso for our inspection. It would be more constructive
to comment on it's content rather than it's existance, as that is what
he's asking for at this point.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Historical CLothing
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:14:04 EDT

In a message dated 6/20/03 6:11:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, casca@post.com
writes:


> My hobby is
> model railroading, and I work with N scale - small.
>
>

Cool. My hobby is building dioramas of battles for museums, and I work in
HO-N scale as well.

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:32:03 EDT

In a message dated 6/20/03 8:48:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mballetta@hotmail.com writes:


> I'm sure that was a
> friendly poke for fun about being unbelievable but the COOK as the
> KGB agent was unbelievable, lol.
>
>

Actually in the Soviet Empire the cook usually was an informer in the Navy,
since he had access to the general population of the ship, directly or
indirectly. So Clancy is correct.
But the PO and the Captain would know this. The only way the Captain would
not, would be if he himself was under suspicion, and had that been the case, he
would have not received the keys to drive a Soviet boomer. Something about
guilty until proving innocence.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:34:25 EDT

In a message dated 6/20/03 8:49:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mballetta@hotmail.com writes:


> The Yule or Winter solstice is the time to celebrate the rebirth of
> the Sun and the Son of the God and Goddess.
>

Exactly. Tacitus mentions this in Annales.

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:09:39 +0200

Salve T Octavius,

<I think you are mistaken in how many are interested in how voting will
<proceed, and I know you are mistaken regarding the extent of the text.As
Caeso answered your <earlier complaint on the length, it's about 4 pages in
size 12. That shouldn't be too troublesome a <digest for any interested
citizen reasonably familiar with the roman voting system.

I hope the citizens prove me wrong by printing out the 10 pages, throwing
out the first 6, reading the last 4 and then commenting on this list.

< It would be more constructive
<to comment on it's content rather than it's existance, as that is what
<he's asking for at this point.

The Senior Consul's email asked for comments, which I gave. I did mention
the content, I said I thought it was a bit too weighty (complicated) and
even apologized for feeling that way knowing that this was being worked on
for months. At least I've read it and cared enough to give a comment. The
good news is that with you included, there are now 3 of us amongst our 1927
citizen Populus who have given their opinion.

Vale,
Diana

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:12:48 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus F. Galerio Aureliano Secndo salutem dicit.

Salve. F. Galeri Secunde.

> I fear, my fellow citizen, that you are very much mistaken about
wine in the ancient world--it was as common as coke, tea, and coffee
are today in America. Wine (usually mixed with water) was the most
common drink. In the New Testament, Luke (Ch. 2, Verse 3 & Verses 9-10):
>
> "When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, 'They
have no wine.'
>
> "And when the steward tasted the water that had become wine, without
knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the
water knew), the steward called the bridegroom and said to him,
'Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk
freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."

I think you have me confused with M. Ambrosius Belisarius or G.
Vipsanius Agrippa. In my two posts on this subject (nos. 11448 and
11469) I argued for the ubiquity of wine in first century CE Jewish
social occasions. I understand how attributions of authorship can be
difficult given the pace of the thread, but you are claiming that I
asserted a position diametrically opposite to the one I did.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:47:56 -0000

Salve,
It makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
Dosvedania Difficult without a cryllic keyboard, lol),
Vale
> >
> >
>
> Actually in the Soviet Empire the cook usually was an informer in
the Navy,
> since he had access to the general population of the ship, directly
or
> indirectly. So Clancy is correct.
> But the PO and the Captain would know this. The only way the
Captain would
> not, would be if he himself was under suspicion, and had that been
the case, he
> would have not received the keys to drive a Soviet boomer.
Something about
> guilty until proving innocence.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:28:53 -0400

Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> writes:

> My apologies...to you and the other gentleman.

Thank you. That was graciously said.

> ..These things are too easy to misunderstand while using
> thesae medium.

Indeed they are.

-- Marinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Richilieu, Pagans, Rome
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:31:56 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Salve F. Lalerius Secundus
> Great intro and my apologies if I "meowed",lol.
> I took it for granted that everyone here is Pagan.
> To think that there are christians among us sheds a new light on
the
> interpretation of these postings.
> Perspective surely does lend another truth to reality and I hope
that
> if anyone was offended, it wasn't intentional; these are my actual
> beliefs and I thought they were shared by all.
> I feel responsible for starting this conversation but it has
> continued to be a fun discussion for me and I am learning much
about
> the other Citizens as well as the topic at hand.
>
>
Salve Again Marce,


Your point on Cardinal Richilieu is well taken. He was quite the fox
for his time and greatly influenced French politics. I do often
wonder however, if his last dying words would have been similar to
Cardinal Wosley under Old Henry the V111, " If only I had served my
God as well as I had served my King!" Still I like to
correctly "appeal to "his" authority" concerning wine since he would
have had to have been reasonably well biblically educated for his
religious position. We can say what we like about his intrigues and
negativities yet I cannot help but support him regarding the wine
position. (lol)


Your posts have been great and educating in my opinion. There are as
you noticed, quite a few non pagans in NR. Before many of us joined
here we read the laws of NR regarding the Religio Romano. People and
their beliefs must have some sort of protection; especially the
several pagans who were clever and good enough to get this
micronation going. The beauty of Ancient Rome was its inclusiveness
of all relgions and cultures. Even the clamp down on the Christians
was at best sporadic and they were given ample opportunity to recant
or shut up even a minute before the sword or lion struck. Rome lasted
almost 1000 years. My other historical hobby is the 3rd Reich. The
3rd Reich was " not " inclusive of all cultures and especially non -
white races. In their persecution of the Jews there was no
opportunity to keep a low profile, convert or offer incense or
alligence to any God or even their leaders. The Jew (among others)
was clearly marked for extermination and that was that. This
particular Empire that was supposed to last 1000 years like Rome
survived but 13. Anyway, the only problem that reared its ugly head
once and a while is when you get some insensitive fanatic from either
the pagans or non - pagans ignorantly railing very nastily on the
other person's beliefs. Sometimes religion or political discussions
evolve in that direction. What WAS hard for the non pagan is that he
is bound (especially if he holds office) to not speak offensively or
blaspheme the Religio Romano and thus paganism. On the other hand the
very few obnoxious pagan fellows HAD carte blanche to say all the
ignorant offensive things he wanted with no repocussions or
punishment. This situation MADE the awful playing field uneven; like
putting a cripple against a black belt in a Tae Kwon Do tournament.
After losing a number of people over this (not many thank goodness),
we have all learned great lessons here about existing together,
working in harmony and having mutual respect for one anothers'
beliefs. Aside from religion we all have one thing in common, the
love of Ancient Rome and we want to keep a grear harmony and respect
for one another. Therefore whenever someone gets going on a religious
discussion we (I hope I speak for most NR's) tend to want to make
sure that the exchange of ideas keeps on a positive respectful course
and do our best to divert its direction when it heads into darker
waters.


Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:42:04 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Tribune Diana Moravia Aventina
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Unfortunately the only person who has replied
> regarding this proposal has been my Tribune
> colleague Didius Sceptius.

I, too, am disappointed by the lack of response. If I
may be permitted to name names, I was hoping to hear
at least from Senator Sinicius Drusus and from Rogator
Cassius Calvus, both of whom have in the past come
forward to discuss this important issue.

> Honestly, I think that the email
> was so long that no one read it.

I could easily sympathize, though I should be
disappointed if this alone put everyone off. However,
in case this is the case I shall in my next message
offer a summary of the new system.

Here I shall simply say that the text of the proposed
law is substantially the same as that of the existing
Cornelian-Octavian law on the Centuriate Assembly
except for the following sections, to which interested
citizens should direct their attentions:

Article IV paragraph C;
Article V paragraph A clause 1;
Article V paragraph A clause 3;
Article V paragraph B clause 1;

These are really all one needs to read. The Handbook
is to guide one through some examples.

> In any case, I have been giving electoral reform a
> lot of thought these last 2 days, and I am not even
> sure that we need a change at all. The multiple
> run-offs are less an electoral procedure problem and
> more an inactive citizen problem.

It is indeed a shame that so small a proportion of the
populations turns out to vote. However, I must
disagree with your suggestion that this proposal is
therefore not useful.

Firstly, the problem of apathy is unlikely to be
solved before the next elections. The Census will
indeed make some inactive citizens unable to vote, but
this will not make a significant difference to the way
centuries vote on average, as my colleague Octavius
Pius has explained: it will primarily affect only one
century.

If a new law, even a four-page one, could solve the
problem of run-off elections forever, without our
having to rely on voter turnout being high, would this
not be worth it? A long law does nothing to harm the
state if it is a good law - it takes up a little
bandwidth in the Tabularium, but that's all.

Secondly, this proposal does far more than simply
eliminate run-off elections, though personally I would
argue that that is enough in itself.

The proposal also aims to make the voting process
historically accurate, which it currently is not.
Roman voters did not place a tick next to one of a
list of candidates and leave the rest blank. They
either wrote the names of all those candidates they
would like to elect, or else they marked their
approval against as many candidates as they wished to
elect. Under this proposal, voting would become
historically accurate, with no disadvantages to
anyone. Isn't that worth doing?

The proposal also makes voting more satisfactory to
the voter. Every election-time recently citizens have
said that they feel frustrated at not being permitted
to vote for more than one candidate (or in some cases
more than one, but still fewer than the full number of
vacancies). Quite rightly so - it means they get a say
in filling only one (or more) of the vacancies, not
all. This makes voting unrepresentative. This proposal
solves that problem - voters can vote for as many
candidates as they please, and are thus able to have a
say in the filling of all the vacancies. Isn't that
worth doing?

The proposal makes elections much fairer. Currently
the candidates who are elected are not necessarily the
two (or however many) most popular candidates, because
of the way votes are split. Under the proposed system,
the candidates who have most support will be the ones
who win. Isn't that worth doing?

> I really sincerely apologize and I am
> expecting a lot of people to be angry with me, but I
> think that if we change our electoral system, a
> simple "the citizen who gets the majority of
> *voting* centuries wins" is good enough.

I very much hope no one will be angry with you - it's
very important that people should express their views
freely.

The change you suggest would, I'm afraid, not do any
of the things I've listed above. Moreover, it would
also not stop run-off elections, for the simple reason
that it is how the system already works. Article V,
paragraph B, clause 1 of the Cornelian-Octavian law
reads:

"1. In the case of a magisterial election, candidates
must receive votes from a simple majority of the
centuries casting votes in order to win."

This is, on my understanding, what you are suggesting.
We need only look to the last elections for Praetor to
see that it does not eliminiate run-offs.

> I hope that the Rogatores lets us know what they
> think of this proposal since they are the ones who
> would have to do the practical side.

I hope so too, and I must say that it will increase
their workload. However, Rogators are public servants,
and I have no doubt that they would willingly
undertake the load in order to make elections fairer,
more efficient and simpler for the ordinary voter if
that is what the public asks.

In token of my faith in the proposed system, and of my
willingness to practice what I preach, you may be
assured that if the Consul's proposal is approved and
implemented, I shall stand for election as Rogator at
the next opportunity.

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Names and Faces
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:44:31 -0000

I noticed a photo section and was hoping to put a face to the names
with which I have been speaking.
I didn't have a ready photo of myself (solo) but wanted to
reciprocate so I posted one I had. The laldy to my right is "Lady
Mimi" of New Orleans. New Orleans is a home away from home for me
and if any Citizens are from that area a great big Slavate Y'all,
lol, I big fan of the French Quarter, Garden District and swamps of
Westwego.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Senior Consul's Proposal: A SUMMARY
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:05:04 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

Our hard-working Tribune Moravia Aventina, having read
through the proposal published by the Senior Consul
recently on electoral reform, has suggested that some
of you may prefer a shorter version.

I must make it very clear that what follows *cannot be
a true substitute for reading the proposal yourself*.
Only then can you understand exactly how this proposal
works. However, I shall try my best to summarize the
proposed changes to the voting-system.

BALLOT-PAPER:
The ballot-paper you filled in during the last
election gave you a list of candidates and allowed you
to vote for only one of them.

Under the proposed system, you would be able to vote
'yes' for as many as you want (or none).

CENTURIES:
The ballot-papers for everyone in your century would
then be gathered together. The candidate who got most
votes from people in your century would be numbered
'1'. The candidate who received the next largest
number of votes would be '2', and so on.

So each century would have a list with the candidates
ranked in order ot preference. Now, if any candidate
was number 1 for a majority of centuries, that
candidate would automatically be elected.

If no candidate had a majority of centuries, then the
candidate with *fewest* centuries would be eliminated.

Whichever of those two things happens, the next step
is the same. Each of the centuries which had the
elected or eliminated candidate as number 1 would be
now go to the candidate who was its number 2 choice.

Now if any candidate has a majority of centuries, he
or she would be elected. Obviously if two candidates
have by this time been elected, the process would
stop.

If no candidate is elected at this point, then, as
before, the candidate with fewest centuries would be
eliminated.

This process continues until two candidate have been
elected.

EXAMPLE:
Here's a simple example, taken from the Handbook
(which can be found in the Consul's e-mail after the
actual proposal):

Let's imagine there are 10 voters in century z, voting
on three candidates for Praetor, called A, B and C.
They vote as follows:

A B C

Voter 1 Yes - -
Voter 2 - Yes -
Voter 3 Yes Yes Yes
Voter 4 - - Yes
Voter 5 Yes - -
Voter 6 - Yes Yes
Voter 7 - Yes Yes
Voter 8 - - Yes
Voter 9 Yes Yes Yes
Voter 10 - - Yes

TOTAL 4 5 7

Candidate C got 7 'yes' votes, B got 5, and A got 4.
So the list would be:

1. C
2. B
3. A

If there were 20 centuries (g to z), their preferences
might look like this:

g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z

1st C A C B A C A C C B B C A C C B C A A C
2nd A B A C B B C B A C A A C B A C B C C B
3rd B C B A C A B A B A C B B A B A A B B A

In total, 10 centuries chose C as their first
preference, 6 chose A, and only 4 chose B. None of
these has a majority (11 or more), so the lowest
candidate, B, is eliminated. That's round one.

Next, B's votes would be distributed between the other
candidates. Of the 4 centuries which voted for B as
first choice, 3 (j, p and v) gave their second
preference to C, and 1 (q) preferred A, so C gets 3
extra votes and A gets 1. C now has 13 centuries and A
has 7. C has a majority, and is elected senior
Praetor. That's the end of the second round.

Finally, the 13 centuries which were voting for C are
redistributed. Of the 10 which put C as first choice,
5 (g, i, o, r, u) have A as second choice, so these go
to A. The other 5 (l, n, t, w, z) have B, who has been
eliminated, so they go to their third choice, who is,
unsurprisingly, A. And the 3 who originally voted for
B and were then given to C also all have A as their
next choice, so they're given to A. A now has 20
centuries - a comfortable majority! - and is therefore
elected junior Praetor.

First Second Third
round round round

A 6 7 20
(elected)
B 4 - -
(eliminated)
C 10 13 -
(elected)


So there you have my summary. I've had to miss out
some things, so please do ask questions or read the
full proposal for yourself.

Thanks for bearing with me,

Cordus

=====
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Richilieu, Pagans, Rome
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:08:58 -0000

I lost the first attempt so let me try to remember my words and do
this again.
Hail Quintus,
Salve does not do you justice.
You are the true politician and have earned my repect and I surely
yield to your will.
I will agree with you on wine and Richelou and those too poor to
afford only one God, (kidding). It is hard for the Pagan mentality
to comprehend the mind of those that follow Organized Religions but I
am nothing if not tollerant and flexible and though I do try to be
sarcastic with humor and wit I hope I did not truly offend anyone.
If I did, I know their benevolence will turn the other cheek and
forgive as I will be more cautious and couch my words more subtely in
the future.
I too am interested in the 3rd reich.
At the risk of opening another of Pandora's boxes, I think Hitler was
a genius as well as a madman.
His military, propaganda, manipulative and public speaking talents
are legendary and held in high regard. Unfortunately, his genocidal
tendency to wipe out most other cultures was abominal.
He is up there on the list of those who have taken their country to
nearly rule the world.
Before I am condemned for my comments, remember I speak of his
military mind and not his social attitude, I in no way condone his
actions against the rest of the world but admire what he did for the
German people. To go from nobody to speaker of the socialist party
to vice chancellor to the head of the known world and take his
country from destitute depression to economic security and pride with
a more than modest background and education was impressive to say the
least.
Snip

I feel like a Moyael (sp) with all this snipping, lol.

SNIP
> Salve Again Marce,
>
>
> Your point on Cardinal Richilieu is well taken. He was quite the
fox
> for his time and greatly influenced French politics. I do often
> wonder however, if his last dying words would have been similar to
> Cardinal Wosley under Old Henry the V111, " If only I had served my
> God as well as I had served my King!" Still I like to
> correctly "appeal to "his" authority" concerning wine since he
would
> have had to have been reasonably well biblically educated for his
> religious position. We can say what we like about his intrigues and
> negativities yet I cannot help but support him regarding the wine
> position. (lol)
>
>
> SNIP
My other historical hobby is the 3rd Reich. The
> 3rd Reich was " not " inclusive of all cultures and especially non -

> white races.
SNIP

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 00:22:08 +0200

Salve A Apollonius,

<Article IV paragraph C;
<Article V paragraph A clause 1;
<Article V paragraph A clause 3;
<Article V paragraph B clause 1;
<These are really all one needs to read. The Handbook
<is to guide one through some examples.

Great! I think this will make things clearer for everyone (myself
included). I'm sure that now more people will respond. Like you, I am also
interested in reading all of the opinions especially since the Plebeians
need to formulate a reform of our own.

Vale & thanks!
Diana

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:49:25 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
>It would be more constructive
> to comment on it's content rather than it's existance, as that is
what
> he's asking for at this point.
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.

Salve,

When faced with a proposal the first question any reasonably
intelligent person would ask is, "Is this neccessary?" Scolding
another person for asking such a question or even believing that a
proposal is unneccessary and stating why they believe so, only
further helps to lower the level of civil discourse in Nova Roma.

The Senior Consul ran on a platform of restoring civility to Nova
Roma's civil discourse. I am dismayed to see scolding coming from a
member of the Senior Consul's staff. Please remember that each and
every public action you take not only reflects upon yourself, but
also reflects back upon the Senior Consul in his having entrusted you
with being a member of his staff in the position of Accensus
Ordinarius.

I personally and respectfully disagree with Diana on whether a change
needs to be made to the current election methods used within the
Comitia Centuriata. If one looks at the history of Nova Roman
elections one finds a repeated pattern of run-offs. The election
mess with the Tribunate took the spotlight off from the fact that it
took 3 election trys to get this year's Praetors elected. The year
before that it took more than one election to get the Praetors
elected (note the initial vote tally for Dec 2754 is on the website,
but the run off is not). As rogator I can assure you that with each
and every run-off the voter turn out dwindles which only makes the
problem worse.

The first question that a reasonably intelligent person would ask
themselves, "Is it neccessary to make a change?" and I have come to
my own personal conclusion that the answer is indeed, "Yes." The
next question I have to ask myself, is this proposal going to solve
the problem which it intends to solve?

I have gone over the methodology that the Rogators would be required
to employ to resolve an election with a fine tooth comb. I admit a
bias on that section of the proposal since it would effect me
directly as I hold the office of Rogator. At first glance yes, it
does seem complicated. However that is mostly because in the United
States, except for a few municipalities, Alternative Voting is not
employed and I am personally unfamiliar with it. Like anything
unfamiliar it seems complicated but after more study, it really isn't
any more complicated than the methods currently used. After careful
study I do believe that the methodology employed would produce an
accurate reflection of the will of the voters.

I do have a question that I can't seem to satisfactorily answer for
myself by reading the proposal. Let's say there are two people
running for Censor. What happens in the case where there is a pure
tie in the Centuries?

For example:
Centuries: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
First Choice: A B B A B B A A B A
Second Choice: B A A B A A B B A B

I realize there will be more than 10 centuries (I hope <G>) voting,
but I decided 10 would be enough to illustrate my question. Both A
and B are the first choice of 5 centuries each. Do the Rogators fip
a coin to decide who get's dropped? I realize that a pure tie is
unlikely, but from looking at the past history of Nova Roman
elections it seems that the unlikely has a bad habit of rearing its
ugly head.

I apologize if I seem a little curt today. I'm suffering from a
minor, but painful medical condition that makes prolonged sitting a
major pain in the, well you get the idea. <GRIN>

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:50:50 -0000

Hail to you Marce,

I am enjoying these discussions with you and you make yourself
perfectly clear. Don't worry about joshing people a little. God, as I
believe made me so he has to have one heck of a sense of humor. Also
I always believed Jesus had to have been an Irishman from the little
known province of Hibernia. He could not have been from Bethlehem.
Why? Who else but a Hibernian (Irishman) would be single, 30 years
old and working at home with his Dad! And it is also said that God or
the gods gave the Hiberians whiskey so they'd never rule the world!
Lol - how true! Lucky for Roman Britain! (well subsitute whiskey with
beer and mead in those times).

You have some good valid points about some of the pagan religions. I
remeber reading years ago an article saying that the ancient Jews
often slipped off "their" path of rightiousness because the new one -
god religion had so many restrictions to the point that it could
never compete with the fun, comradery and festive spirit of their
neighbour's pagan religions. That was a real problem for Solomon if I
remember correctly. Yep, I do have to admit that a pagan festival,
especially for an ancient fertility god would be so lovely with the
song, food, wine, scented flowers and a few wonderful maidens in my
arms for a few days or so rather than listening to fire and brimstone
preaching. Are some of those feasts still in fashion with modern
pagans?

With regards to the 3rd Reich I see no hornet nest in your comment.
Just people who skim over things quickly and don't pay enough
attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I recall,
not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler stupid;
I will elborate on that a lot more on a private note in future if you
wish. My mother had quite an experience with 2 German students in the
30's but I'll explain that later so as not to get off topic.

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:51:20 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus" <> In token
of my faith in the proposed system, and of my
> willingness to practice what I preach, you may be
> assured that if the Consul's proposal is approved and
> implemented, I shall stand for election as Rogator at
> the next opportunity.
>
> Cordus


Salve Cordus,

You are a glutton for punishment aren't you? <GRIN>

Vale,

Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Names and Faces
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:58:16 -0000

Hi again Marce,

Did you visit the Album gentium on the main NR web page? There a
quite a few photoas there. Also in the senator's album. Check the
Yahoo profiles on this list as you go along but try not to fall in
love with the wonderful ladies. Lol

Quintus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> I noticed a photo section and was hoping to put a face to the names
> with which I have been speaking.
> I didn't have a ready photo of myself (solo) but wanted to
> reciprocate so I posted one I had. The laldy to my right is "Lady
> Mimi" of New Orleans. New Orleans is a home away from home for me
> and if any Citizens are from that area a great big Slavate Y'all,
> lol, I big fan of the French Quarter, Garden District and swamps of
> Westwego.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Latin to English Dictionary Program "WORDS"
From:	Charlie Collins <cotta@spamcop.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:53:25 -0500

Salvete Omes,
I don't know if this program is used by anyone in NR but, I thought
I would post the URL for it. The dictionary has 30,000 word's and is
available for Windows ME, 2000, XP, OS2, Mac OSX, and Linux.
It is sorta simple but it works for my purposes.

http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm


Sextus Cornelius Cotta

AIM: Walhalla47