Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Latin to English Dictionary Program "WORDS"
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:57:21 -0400

Sextus Cornelius Cotta writes:

> I don't know if this program is used by anyone in NR but, I thought
> I would post the URL for it. The dictionary has 30,000 word's and is
> available for Windows ME, 2000, XP, OS2, Mac OSX, and Linux.
> It is sorta simple but it works for my purposes.
>
> http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

Thanks! I just installed the Linux version on my laptop here, and
it seems to work just fine.

-- Marinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Paula Drennan" <dragonpink@satx.rr.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:08:44 -0500

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
<SNIP>
> With regards to the 3rd Reich I see no hornet nest in your comment.
> Just people who skim over things quickly and don't pay enough
> attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I recall,
> not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler stupid;
<SNIP>

Salve,
Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in winter. =)
One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the lesson from
Naponleon about that one.
Being that I'm both part German and marrying into an ethnic German family,
albeit one that immigrated to the US in the mid to late 1800's the subject
of Hitler is one of those things that we don't like to talk about. Even
though the man was Austrian, everything he did in the name of Germany has
given those of us with German heritage so much to live down. To this day in
my little neck of the woods, New Braunfels, people always talk about "those
back woods German families" as racist and Nazi sympathizers. Makes me so
angry considering everything I know to be true of several of those families.
More specifically, my fiance's family is so ANTI Nazi and Anti racism it
offends me when people make assumptions about them....But i'm getting myself
all worked up about things not even mentioned on this list. I'll stop now.
Vale,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"M Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:17:29 +1000

> > attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I recall,
> > not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler stupid;
> <SNIP>
>
> Salve,
> Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in winter. =)
> One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the lesson from
> Naponleon about that one.

While I'm not going to go into the ins and outs of the conversation, since
this weekend is the anniversary of the aforementioned invasion, I wouldn't
call it winter......

M Flavius Aurelius
m.flavius.aurelius@iinet.net.au
Scribe
Australia Province

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 02:28:38 -0000

Salvete! Omnes;
I am a new citizen from Hibernia, which has no gens. I have made
an application to found one but if there are older citizens from
Hibernia I would be more than happy for them to found and lead the
gens.
Valete,
Urania Antonina

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Latin to English Dictionary Program "WORDS"
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:09:36 -0400

Salve Sexte Corneli,

I've been using the Windows version for some time now. I tell you, it never fails me. Even gives syncope, attempts words which may be enjambed, poetic usages of words, etc. It would come highly recommended from me for anyone for any usage!

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

"Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:05:10 -0000

Salve Claudia,

1 Your point is well taken. He was not a smart general I agree but
his politics and uncanny cahrisma were, in of course, the negative
sense.

2 It is indeed sad that many people make bad generalizations about
different cultures. Educated people should refrain from making
foolish generalizations about a whole culture. I don't think these
German families you talk about are nazi sympathizers anymore than I
believe many Americans south of the Mason Dixon line wear white
sheets, burn crosses and lynch people.

3 The 3rd Reich had such a big effect on our world and is barely 2
generations since it ended. Many of our families in the western world
were affected one way or another and many of my friends and
neighbours were on both sides. They are in their mid 70's to 80's now
but they sure taught me a lot about their experiences in the civilian
and military lives. Hitler's impact on the world equals or eclipses
of the likes of Ghengis Khan, Alexander the Great, Caesar, Napoleon,
Shaka, Tamerlane and Stalin. Whether people are sensitive to the
subject or not, I'm sure he will be talked about anyway 100, 1000,
2000 years from now.


4 My lineage is Irish ( some German way back). I enjoy the Irish
culture and music as well as the Celtic revival. I have all the
Irish rebel songs. Still this culture has its negative aspects; the
IRA bombers, and an over 300 year civil war partially unresolved. I
get railed a lot about these problems by many people friends and the
Latin American and British culture. More often than not they make
foolish statements so I never neglect their education, merely
correcting them and having them see the error of their ways. Perhaps
I am thick skinned but I tend not get upset or offended.


Finally, you can never blame or ostrasize a culture who must endure a
dictatorship. If you choose not to serve in the army or speak your
mind the penalties are worse to say the least than a few hundred
hours of community service or a slap on the wrist - Death.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

PS Nazi is a term too over used in this day and age. I was recently
called one for not agreeing about the legalization of single sex
marriages in this country. Jeez!



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Drennan" <dragonpink@s...>
wrote:

> Salve,
> Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in
winter. =)
> One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the
lesson from
> Naponleon about that one.
> Being that I'm both part German and marrying into an ethnic German
family,
> albeit one that immigrated to the US in the mid to late 1800's the
subject
> of Hitler is one of those things that we don't like to talk about.
Even
> though the man was Austrian, everything he did in the name of
Germany has
> given those of us with German heritage so much to live down. To
this day in
> my little neck of the woods, New Braunfels, people always talk
about "those
> back woods German families" as racist and Nazi sympathizers. Makes
me so
> angry considering everything I know to be true of several of those
families.
> More specifically, my fiance's family is so ANTI Nazi and Anti
racism it
> offends me when people make assumptions about them....But i'm
getting myself
> all worked up about things not even mentioned on this list. I'll
stop now.
> Vale,
> Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:19:29 -0000

Salve and welcome to NR Urania,

If you go to NR main web page and go to the Album gentium you will
see that there is a gens Hibernia. Sadly it is a closed gens and I
had considered that one last year before I got to know my
paterfamilias. From what I can see it is inactive. Hopefully, after
our census this year, the NR government will clean up house and hand
these gens to people like you! Please contact the censors on this
matter. They're very fast at getting back to you. Still there are
many other gens in Nova Roma that would be more than happy to have
you - starting with gens Lania.

Take care and good luck with this,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete! Omnes;
> I am a new citizen from Hibernia, which has no gens. I have made
> an application to found one but if there are older citizens from
> Hibernia I would be more than happy for them to found and lead the
> gens.
> Valete,
> Urania Antonina

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Republican Political History Bibliographies
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:57:55 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here are links to two excellent bibliographies prepared by Prof. Dr.
Wilfried Nippel of the Institut für Geschichtswissenschaften
(Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin):

Die späte römische Republik (the late Roman Republic):

http://www.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/bereiche/ag/Nippel/index.htm

Die Verfassung der Romischen Republik (the constitution of the Roman
Republic):

http://www.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/bereiche/ag/Nippel/index.htm

Prof. Nippel is the author of _Public Order in Ancient Rome
(Cambrdige, 1995), _Griechen, Barbaren und "Wilde": alte Geschichte
und Sozialanthropologie_ (Frankfurt am Main, 1990), and
_Mischverfassungstheorie und Verfassungsrealität in Antike und früher
Neuzeit_ (Stuttgart, 1980).

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 05:00:18 -0000

Salve Tribune, Salvete omnes,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:
> Salve Senior Consul,
> Salvete citizens,
>
> < If I get an OK from the Populus with this proposal I will
> <get my "Officina Iuris et Rei Politicae" to start working on a new
> <lex for the Comitia Populi Tributa too.
>
> Unfortunately the only person who has replied regarding this
>proposal has been my Tribune colleague Didius Sceptius. Honestly, I
>think that the email was so long that no one read it. At best only a
>handful of us are *really* interested in a new electoral proposal,
>but a new electoral proposal mixed in between 10 pages in size 10
>font is more of an endurance test.

Yes, I agree, 14 or more pages of electoral reform is a daunting task
to wade through.

> Honestly this new procedure seems a little too weighty considering
>that we are talking about 300 or so votes. I could clearly see the
>writing styles change in the proposal at least twice and so I know
>that a lot of poeple must have worked very hard on this. I really
>sincerely apologize and I am expecting a lot of people to be angry
>with me, but I think that if we change our electoral system, a
>simple "the citizen who gets the majority of *voting* centuries
>wins" is good enough.

I agree, it is a complicated system for a small community like ours.
The comparisons made to Ireland or Australia are less relevant than
comparisons to how other small organizations or communities of a few
hundred people conduct their voting.

Anyway, I too admire the work that went into this proposal and think
the handbook is a good idea. Hats off for that idea. Overall, though,
I think this is like getting out a sledgehammer to kill a fly when a
fly-swatter was all that was needed. Little steps are the best way to
tweak a system. A simple switch to a large plurality would have had
the desired effect.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latin to English Dictionary Program "WORDS"
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 05:08:18 -0000

Salve SP Postumie,

My friend, can you tell me where to find that windows version? Is it
available on the net?

Quintus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Postumius Tubertus"
<postumius@g...> wrote:
> Salve Sexte Corneli,
>
> I've been using the Windows version for some time now. I tell you,
it never fails me. Even gives syncope, attempts words which may be
enjambed, poetic usages of words, etc. It would come highly
recommended from me for anyone for any usage!
>
> Vale,
>
> Sp. Postumius Tubertus
>
> "Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima
habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latin to English Dictionary Program "WORDS"
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 05:16:15 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S. Cornelio Cottae S.P.D.

Whitaker's morphological and dictionary software is very good
(although it does sometimes misleads by inferring a Latin neologism
where none exists and occasionally oddly identifies some Ciceronian
constructions as archaic). The Perseus Project's Latin Morphological
Analysis Tool:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=Latin

performs the same functions with the addition of links to C.T. Lewis
and C. Short, _A Latin Dictionary_, and C.T. Lewis' _An Elementary
Latin Dictionary_, in which examples of word usage is often linked to
context in the Latin e-texts which Perseus has amassed. The Perseus
vocabulary is larger than Whitaker's and the definitions more
complete. For quick translation of an unfamiliar word or morpheme
Whitaker's Words is first rate; for more extensive contextualisation
and a larger vocabulary the Perseus tools are probably preferrable.
Interestingly, however, Whitaker's program has more late antique and
medieval Latin usages than Perseus. Perseus also has a "Latin Words
in Context" tool which is very useful for identifying idioms and
by-headword search engines for itsEnglish-to-Latin and
English-to-Greek dictionaries.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 01:54:17 -0400

Salve Claudia Fabia Calpurnia

I agree with most of what you have written and would add that the Nazi Reich that lasted 12 years, 3 months and 7 days is the ONLY thing, most people believe ever happen in Germany in the last 200O years.
I am ethically half German ( Bavaria) and half Irish ( Donegal and Cork) and all American ( and Roman)
I Thank god that my family emigrated, from Germany prior to the US Civil War.

I have only one regret in terms of German history

WHY THE HELL DID WE DESTROY THOSE LEGIONS OF P. Quinctilius Varus

We could have contributed to the empire and it that might have lasted ( longer) or at least civilized the "Teutonic " beast.

QUINCTILIUS VARUS WERE ARE MY EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Pax

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

BTW Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22 ,1941,

This was well before the onset of winter, but winter did come early in 1941 , October if memory serves me.


----- Original Message -----
From: Paula Drennan
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich



----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
<SNIP>
> With regards to the 3rd Reich I see no hornet nest in your comment.
> Just people who skim over things quickly and don't pay enough
> attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I recall,
> not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler stupid;
<SNIP>

Salve,
Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in winter. =)
One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the lesson from
Naponleon about that one.
Being that I'm both part German and marrying into an ethnic German family,
albeit one that immigrated to the US in the mid to late 1800's the subject
of Hitler is one of those things that we don't like to talk about. Even
though the man was Austrian, everything he did in the name of Germany has
given those of us with German heritage so much to live down. To this day in
my little neck of the woods, New Braunfels, people always talk about "those
back woods German families" as racist and Nazi sympathizers. Makes me so
angry considering everything I know to be true of several of those families.
More specifically, my fiance's family is so ANTI Nazi and Anti racism it
offends me when people make assumptions about them....But i'm getting myself
all worked up about things not even mentioned on this list. I'll stop now.
Vale,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia



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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 06:08:00 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Claudia Fabia Calpurnia
> I have only one regret in terms of German history
>
> WHY THE HELL DID WE DESTROY THOSE LEGIONS OF P.
>Quinctilius Varus



> We could have contributed to the empire and it that might have
lasted ( longer) or at least civilized the "Teutonic " beast.
>
> QUINCTILIUS VARUS WERE ARE MY EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

It's all the fault of those Germans from the dark ages on! :-) If
they hadn't destroyed those legions the world would be much
different.

> Pax
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> BTW Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22 ,1941,
>
> This was well before the onset of winter, but winter did come early
>in 1941 , October if memory serves me.

Hitler turned South against the oil fields of the Caucasus (sic) when
strategically it made sense to continue on to Moscow. By the time the
armies continued on to Moscow, winter was near.


Decius Iunius Palladius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"M Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:11:40 +1000

> Hitler turned South against the oil fields of the Caucasus (sic) when
> strategically it made sense to continue on to Moscow. By the time the
> armies continued on to Moscow, winter was near.
>

Palladius

While I am loath to continue a thread that is so far off topic (bloody
Varus!), the simple way of describing what you say is that he went for
Moscow in 1941, just missed out, and in the spring of 1942, targetted
Stalingrad and the Caucasus oil regions. And over the 1942-43 winter, that
failed as well.

M Flavius Aurelius
m.flavius.aurelius@iinet.net.au
Scribe
Australia Province

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:14:08 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

Election dynamics in Nova Roma are different from
those of Antiquita or those of any Macronation. Just
because a system worked in Antiquita, or works in some
Macronation dosen't mean it will work in Nova Roma.

Our primary need is an election system that WORKS.

The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may have
had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without a
constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system works,
something that can't be said for the Consul's
proposals or any other untried proposal for reforms.

I Propose that we return to the system that we had in
January of 2754.

After we get a system in place that is known to work
with Nova Roma's voting dynamics then we can test out
some proposals for reforms by holding a series of mock
elections before any new election leges are proposed
to the Comitiae for voting.

Since 2754 we have voted in a series of reforms that
have had unforseen results that have screwed up our
elections. This isn't the time for yet another
untested attempt at reform.

We need a system that we know works, not another
untried experiment that may do more harm than good,
one that we hve no way of finding out if it will work
or not before the end of the year elections.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Latin to English Dictionary Program "WORDS"
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 06:37:27 -0000

Salve Scare,

Thanks for the link. It is indeed a great help!


Quintus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, G¥IVLIVS¥SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S. Cornelio Cottae S.P.D.
>
> Whitaker's morphological and dictionary software is very good
> (although it does sometimes misleads by inferring a Latin neologism
> where none exists and occasionally oddly identifies some Ciceronian
> constructions as archaic). The Perseus Project's Latin
Morphological
> Analysis Tool:
>
> http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=Latin
>
> performs the same functions with the addition of links to C.T. Lewis
> and C. Short, _A Latin Dictionary_, and C.T. Lewis' _An Elementary
> Latin Dictionary_, in which examples of word usage is often linked
to
> context in the Latin e-texts which Perseus has amassed. The Perseus
> vocabulary is larger than Whitaker's and the definitions more
> complete. For quick translation of an unfamiliar word or morpheme
> Whitaker's Words is first rate; for more extensive contextualisation
> and a larger vocabulary the Perseus tools are probably
preferrable.
> Interestingly, however, Whitaker's program has more late antique and
> medieval Latin usages than Perseus. Perseus also has a "Latin Words
> in Context" tool which is very useful for identifying idioms and
> by-headword search engines for itsEnglish-to-Latin and
> English-to-Greek dictionaries.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:55:05 -0700 (PDT)

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:
SNIP
>
> BTW Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22
> ,1941,
>
> This was well before the onset of winter, but winter
> did come early in 1941 , October if memory serves
> me.
>

June 22 1941 was well after the planned invasion date
of May 15, 1941 set in Fueher Order 21 in December of
1940.

The delay was caused by an unexpected Balkian campaign
bought about by Italy's failed invasion of Greece and
a Coup in Yugoslavia that overthrew a Pro Nazi
government. This 6 week delay resulted in the Nazi
forces being a few weeks short of thier 1941 goals
when Russia's ancient ally, Winter, entered the war
and halted the German advance.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:46:41 -0000

Salvete Marce Flavi,

I respectfully disagree about certain subjects like this one being so
far off topic. The whole idea of learning history is to know about
the past, mistakes of the past and often its necessary to compare the
systems of ancient times to those of modern times. I hope you were
able to see "all" the posts on this subject so as to undertand the
initial point which was: one ancient system based on conquest
included all cultures and religions and lasted 1000 years; the other
based on conquest was very exclusive to other people and cultures and
only lasted 13 or 12 years and a bit like Tiberius said. Rome had
some genius type leaders as well who had little respect for life as
well. I know this is a Roman forum and I have no intention of
dwelling on a topic such as this for any length of time but
parallels, and analogies were always acceptable in a history class,
or at least in the time I went to school.

Here are some other examples that tie Ancient times into modern times
so that things are understood in our contexts:


1) All the great generals of the 20th century said they studied the
battle of Cannae 2300 years ago. Are ancient elephants and military
strategies off topic with respect to modern tank warfare?

2) In studying WW11, Napoleon was often brought up to remind us that
the old Russian allies, General Winter and General Mud had slipped
the minds of new conquerors 130 years later. Is Napoleon discussed a
little in a WWII class this too far off topic?

3) The Romans were blood thirsty and cruel! Look at their circuses of
carnage! Well we have better technology. Is a discussion of the movie
industry so far off topic to use it to say that all the graphic
violent and horror movies make the best money at the box office? What
does that say about our taste.

4) On another list we discussed the " Private Lives Of Pompeii "
program the other day. Some of the people metioned how cruel the
Romans were to expose their unwanted child. Is it far off topic to
say that we legally follow in a way, that practice today and to
forgive the Romans since they did not have the technolgy to terminate
pregnency early in development without killing the woman?

Finally on a lighter note my mother brought up conversations that
seemed of topic until you got her drift:

Mother -"Oh, you long haired hippy kids might well be our ruin!"
Says Quintus, " Oh that's been said by all oldies for 3000 years
Mother " Yes indeed! Aristotle said that to the Greeks...and they
fell! Marcus Aurelius made a similar content about the Romans... and
they fell, Churchill said that of the British Empire... and you
guessed it... it fell!

While she was designing an interior for a friend's house the
carpenter had it out with mom. " Look lady, you dames don't know
nuthin about a man's job. You should but out and look after the kids
at your house. I've been doing this work for "15 years" and..."

Mother cut him off and said " Have you ever studied Napoleon? No, I
don't imagine but he was a great general and won a decisive victory
in a battle called Australitz. After his victory a delegation of
officers came to him and said, "My general. Would you please consider
a great promotion for your old corporal. He fought so hard today and
afterall he has been in your service for "15 years" and..." Napoleon
cut them of and answered, " Well so has my mule!"

Was discussing a little bit of Napoleonic history far off topic
during a house renovation?

Yours respectfully,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] 4th person? (pro electoral reform)
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:53:33 +0300

Salve Diana,

Now that you mentioned, I'll try to be that 4th person to answer
then... unless someone has managed to get that title already :-).

I think this proposal is fair and as a plebian I would recommend
something like this also for comitia plebis tributa. I'm in support
of this new model.

Vale,

>The Senior Consul's email asked for comments, which I gave. I did mention
>the content, I said I thought it was a bit too weighty (complicated) and
>even apologized for feeling that way knowing that this was being worked on
>for months. At least I've read it and cared enough to give a comment. The
>good news is that with you included, there are now 3 of us amongst our 1927
>citizen Populus who have given their opinion.


--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@welho.com
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] 4th person? (pro electoral reform)
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:52:08 +0200

Salve Saturninus,

<I'll try to be that 4th person to answer
<then... unless someone has managed to get that title already :-).

You were eighth, but whose counting? :-)

Vale
Diana

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:55:53 +0200

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,

<The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may have
<had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without a
<constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system works,
<something that can't be said for the Consul's
<proposals or any other untried proposal for reforms.

I remember back in 1999 and 2000 that we had another system but I'll admit
that the memory is a bit fuzzy. I do seem to recall that in 1999 we were
able to vote for more than one candidate.

<I Propose that we return to the system that we had in
<January of 2754.
Can you post the details of the previous system? And why was it changed?

Vale,
Diana Moravia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:50:42 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
all citizens & peregrines, greetings.

> After careful study I do believe that the
> methodology employed would produce an
> accurate reflection of the will of the voters.
>
> I do have a question that I can't seem to
> satisfactorily answer for myself by reading the
> proposal. Let's say there are two people
> running for Censor. What happens in the case where
> there is a pure tie in the Centuries?

Under the proposed system, this would have to be
decided by lot. It is, as you say, unlikely, but it is
still possible.

What do we feel about decision by lot? It's a tricky
area. On one hand, deciding an election by lot seems
arbitrary, and arbitrary can often seem unfair.

On the other, we must remember that if there ever were
a pure tie between two candidates in this way, this
would be because the electorate as a whole supported
both candidates equally. In such a case, one must ask
oneself whether it would really be a problem. One or
other must be elected, and either one would have the
support of half the centuries. We should remember that
the ancient Athenians, those radical democrats, and to
a lesser extent the Romans, used lottery as a valid
and equally fair alternative to voting.

For those who have faith in a god, gods or fate, one
may also argue that deciding by lot allows a space in
elections for higher powers to intervene and have
their say. This, I think, was the rationale behind the
fact that in ancient elections at both Athens and Rome
it was possible for a candidate who had more support
tot lose to one with less, depending on who got to the
finish-line first, so to speak.

But I must admit that if I were one of two candidates
for Censor (quite apart from the fact that I'd be
amazed to have got that far!) and I lost the election
on a coin-toss I might feel rather discontent.

This is where I think the Consul has been wise to
release the proposal before calling the Assembly to
vote - we have time to pick through the details and
take on new ideas. I've racked my brains to think of
an alternative and failed, but perhaps someone else
will be able to suggest something.

And as for my intent to run for Rogator:

> You are a glutton for punishment aren't you? <GRIN>

I guess so. But if the proposed system is implemented,
I think life for the Rogator will be considerably
easier than it is now. A little more work per election
(but I've worked with AV before, so I'm quite at home
with it) in exchange for no run-offs!

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:14:53 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular Decius
Iunius Palladius and all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

> Yes, I agree, 14 or more pages of electoral reform
> is a daunting task to wade through.

Goodness, it seems to have more pages by the day! I
hope my summary will give a starting-point.

> I agree, it is a complicated system for a small
> community like ours.

One of the things I like about the proposed system is
that it will work just as well for a community of 300
voting members (to use the Tribune's statistic) as for
a community of 3000 or 300,000. If we pass this law,
we will, as far as I can see, never need to change the
electoral system again. Wouldn't that be a weight off
everyone's mind?

> Overall, though, I think this is like getting out a
> sledgehammer to kill a fly when a fly-swatter was
> all that was needed. Little steps are the best way
> to tweak a system.

I can readily sympathise, for I tend to react
instinctively against large measures. However, if I
may hi-jack your metaphor, I would argue that the
problems with the current electoral system are more an
ox than a fly. Not only is it inefficient (run-off
elections are endemic), but it is unhistorical,
unsatisfying to the voter and unfair to the candidate.

It is unhistorical because it only allows voters to
cast one vote per magistracy, and for this same reason
it is frustrating for voters. It is unfair because it
can easily result in a pair of candidates being
elected who are not the pair of candidates most people
would have chosen.

> A simple switch to a large plurality would have had
> the desired effect.

I take it you are referring to Senator Sinicius
Drusus' recent suggestion that the threshold for
election be lowered to 40% of the centuries.

This solution does not, I fear, address the problems
of unfairness and unhistoricity in the current system.

More relevantly, it also does not eliminate run-off
elections. It merely makes them about 10% less likely.


In the election for Praetor ending 24th November
MMDCCLV, 40% would have been 30 centuries. In this
case two candidates would have been elected, but one
only just, with 31 centuries. Had a few people voted
differently, a run-off would have been needed.

In the Tribunician election of 26 November MMDCCLV,
40% would have been 14 tribes. Only three candidates
got more than 14 tribes, so a run-off would still have
been necessary.

We have to ask, what harm does it do to have a lengthy
law (and not much longer than the Cornelian-Octavian
law anyway) sitting in the Tabularium? And if we have
a choice between eliminating run-off elections
altogether and simply making them 10% less likely, why
not choose the former?

Cordus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:52:11 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may have
> had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without a
> constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> works, something that can't be said for the Consul's
> proposals or any other untried proposal for reforms.

My researches in the Tabularium can discover no law
explaining how voting worked before 2754, so I must
infer it from the election results. It seems that each
century could cast only one vote, and that whichever
two (or one in the case of Censor) candidates got most
centuries won.

In the Consular election of 18 December MMDCCLIII, 115
centuries voted. The tied centuries were discounted,
meaning that the votes of the people in those
centuries were completely wasted. Of the remaining
centuries, 37 voted for one candidate, 34 for another,
and 29 for the third.

37, the highest total, was only 32% of the total. The
second candidate got 29%. Is 32% of the electorate
really enough to make someone consul?

Yes, the system worked. But there are two important
things about electoral systems. The first is that they
must give a *fair* and *accurate* representation of
the will of the electorate. Otherwise you could say
that whichever candidate has the most letters in his
name wins: no run-offs there!

The system in place at in 2754 was not fair. The
current system is not fair.

> We need a system that we know works, not another
> untried experiment that may do more harm than good,
> one that we hve no way of finding out if it will
work
> or not before the end of the year elections.

Senator, electoral systems are mathematical systems.
You don't have to try them with real people to test
whether they work, you just sit down and think. Well,
I've sat down and thought about this one, and so have
better mathematicians than I, and it works. It will
work. It is mathematically almost impossible for it to
fail.

Your idea about a test run is a very good one. We have
plenty of time to do several tests of this system
before the next elections. Let's do it. Senator
Octavius Germanicus has said on this list that he
could put together a computer simulation of an
election in a matter of minutes. We can even try a
couple of test-runs with real voters if you want. If
you want it tested, then let's do it. If it were left
to me, I wouldn't bother, because I've tested it in my
head, I've tested it on paper with about a dozen
different sets of candidates, and I know it works; but
if others want to test it, I strongly encourage them
to do so, and they too will find that it works.

Cordus

=====
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:36:40 +0200

Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!

>The Senior Consul ran on a platform of restoring civility to Nova
>Roma's civil discourse. I am dismayed to see scolding coming from a
>member of the Senior Consul's staff. Please remember that each and
>every public action you take not only reflects upon yourself, but
>also reflects back upon the Senior Consul in his having entrusted you
>with being a member of his staff in the position of Accensus
>Ordinarius.

As You know I think that each of my Accensi must be free to express
their point of view as independent persons. That is their right as
citizens. It becomes even more important when it comes to other
magistrates, This is a part of the agreement I have made with the
members of my Cohors. I _do_ expect what is required in the
Appiatores Edictum though.

>The first question that a reasonably intelligent person would ask
>themselves, "Is it neccessary to make a change?" and I have come to
>my own personal conclusion that the answer is indeed, "Yes." The
>next question I have to ask myself, is this proposal going to solve
>the problem which it intends to solve?

I agree!

>I have gone over the methodology that the Rogators would be required
>to employ to resolve an election with a fine tooth comb. I admit a
>bias on that section of the proposal since it would effect me
>directly as I hold the office of Rogator. At first glance yes, it
>does seem complicated. However that is mostly because in the United
>States, except for a few municipalities, Alternative Voting is not
>employed and I am personally unfamiliar with it. Like anything
>unfamiliar it seems complicated but after more study, it really isn't
>any more complicated than the methods currently used.

Thank You! Exactly what I think. This law builds on a system of
possible extra elections which are built into one election.The
mechanism of each of these "elections" is quite simple though. The
system makes it unlikely, but not impossible, that we will need to
have run-off elections, just the thing we want to achive.

>After careful
>study I do believe that the methodology employed would produce an
>accurate reflection of the will of the voters.

I agree again!

>I do have a question that I can't seem to satisfactorily answer for
>myself by reading the proposal. Let's say there are two people
>running for Censor. What happens in the case where there is a pure
>tie in the Centuries?
>
>For example:
> Centuries: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
> First Choice: A B B A B B A A B A
>Second Choice: B A A B A A B B A B
>
>I realize there will be more than 10 centuries (I hope <G>) voting,
>but I decided 10 would be enough to illustrate my question. Both A
>and B are the first choice of 5 centuries each. Do the Rogators fip
>a coin to decide who get's dropped? I realize that a pure tie is
>unlikely, but from looking at the past history of Nova Roman
>elections it seems that the unlikely has a bad habit of rearing its
>ugly head.

You are right, it seems as if we may need another mechanism to
prevent this. I will continue to listen and see if some good proposal
turns up and include it in this proposal.

>I apologize if I seem a little curt today. I'm suffering from a
>minor, but painful medical condition that makes prolonged sitting a
>major pain in the, well you get the idea. <GRIN>

I can only wish You all the best! Sitting by the computer on the
other hand is not _only_ good for one's health. ;-)

>Vale,
>
>Q. Cassius Calvus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:37:48 +0200

Salve Illustrus Senator!


>Salve Tribune, Salvete omnes,
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
><diana@p...> wrote:
>> Salve Senior Consul,
>> Salvete citizens,
>>
>> < If I get an OK from the Populus with this proposal I will
>> <get my "Officina Iuris et Rei Politicae" to start working on a new
>> <lex for the Comitia Populi Tributa too.
>>
>> Unfortunately the only person who has replied regarding this
>>proposal has been my Tribune colleague Didius Sceptius. Honestly, I
>>think that the email was so long that no one read it. At best only a
>>handful of us are *really* interested in a new electoral proposal,
>>but a new electoral proposal mixed in between 10 pages in size 10
>>font is more of an endurance test.
>
>Yes, I agree, 14 or more pages of electoral reform is a daunting task
>to wade through.

But my friend, this doesn't become more true by repeating it over and
over again. The Lex proposal is less then _four_ pages and the rest
is just explananations and arguments. I thought that such extra text
would make this discussion easier, not harder. ;-)

> > Honestly this new procedure seems a little too weighty considering
>>that we are talking about 300 or so votes. I could clearly see the
>>writing styles change in the proposal at least twice and so I know
>>that a lot of poeple must have worked very hard on this. I really
>>sincerely apologize and I am expecting a lot of people to be angry
>>with me, but I think that if we change our electoral system, a
>>simple "the citizen who gets the majority of *voting* centuries
>>wins" is good enough.
>
>I agree, it is a complicated system for a small community like ours.
>The comparisons made to Ireland or Australia are less relevant than
>comparisons to how other small organizations or communities of a few
>hundred people conduct their voting.

I am sorry, but the system in itself isn't really complicated. But
when it includes a system that (nearly) eliminates run-off elections
it _seems_ a bit complicated. But this is just an chimera, in
reality these procedures will be invisable to the voters and just
includes run-off election, which will spare us from such depressing
events.

>Anyway, I too admire the work that went into this proposal

Here You can see a small trace of how much work my Accensi are doing.

>and think
>the handbook is a good idea. Hats off for that idea.

Thank You and that means that You have seen that the actual law
proposal is not 10 pages and that You understand that the added text
is only there to help.

>Overall, though,
>I think this is like getting out a sledgehammer to kill a fly when a
>fly-swatter was all that was needed. Little steps are the best way to
>tweak a system. A simple switch to a large plurality would have had
>the desired effect.

But to tweak a system that is so bad as ours would only make bad
things even worse.

>Valete,
>
>Decius Iunius Palladius

It is a pleasure to discuss with You and I am sure that we will find
solutions to a few more problems in Nova Roma by having more
constructive deliberations. There are certainly a few more active
citizens today than there were only one year ago that can discuss
without mixing "persons with facts" and You are one of these
constructive citizens. ;-)
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:19:03 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Salve Illustrus Q. Cassius Calvus!
>

> As You know I think that each of my Accensi must be free to express
> their point of view as independent persons. That is their right as
> citizens. It becomes even more important when it comes to other
> magistrates, This is a part of the agreement I have made with the
> members of my Cohors. I _do_ expect what is required in the
> Appiatores Edictum though.

Salve Honorable Consul,

Let me put it another way. Let's say you own a store and you hire me
to the sales staff. Let's say a customer comes in and that customer
for whatever reason really gets on my nerves and I snap at them.
Other customers who witness the exchange would likely think
negatively of store as well. I don't think you'd be too pleased at my
performance on your sales staff would you?

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 06:36:16 -0700 (PDT)

--- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:
> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,
>
> <The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may
> have
> <had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without
> a
> <constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> works,
> <something that can't be said for the Consul's
> <proposals or any other untried proposal for
> reforms.
>
> I remember back in 1999 and 2000 that we had another
> system but I'll admit
> that the memory is a bit fuzzy. I do seem to recall
> that in 1999 we were
> able to vote for more than one candidate.
>
> <I Propose that we return to the system that we had
> in
> <January of 2754.
> Can you post the details of the previous system? And
> why was it changed?
>
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia
>
>

The Electorial leges are the ones enacted by
dicatorial decree in 2752. They are the first three
leges in the Tabularium.

In short they call for election by a simple plurity,
rather than requiring a majority of tribe/centuries.

They were changed in an effort to be more historic,
however it wasn't a full recreation of the historic
methods of voting.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS" <cybernaut911@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:02:13 -0000

MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS QVIRITIBVS S.P.D.

AVETE,

Greetings fellow citizens, I stand once more amongst you, in the
fellowship of Roman Republic. I greet also the city fathers, both
OPTIMATES ET POPVLARES in the Senate.

To my erstwhile colleagues MANIVS CONSTANTINVS SERAPIO ET QVINTVS
LANIVS PAVLINVS I hope I find you well in the service of Rome, and
that the gods and muses have smiled upon you both in your endeavours.
Your faithful labours shall find their reward.

May I also send my greetings to DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA for a
kindness that she showed me some time ago - Diana , you were right
VENVS has smiled upon me!

Finally, to Urania Antonina, I am a citizen from HIBERNIA, and
PATERFAMILIAS of the gens. CALIDIA, I should be honoured to sponsor
your application for citizenship with the CENSORES and accept you
into our FAMILIA, should you so desire. I will e-mail you privately
RE this.

VALE


M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

POST SCRIPTVM: Would all CIVES note that e-mail address is :
cybernaut911@yahoo.co.uk



-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete! Omnes;
> I am a new citizen from Hibernia, which has no gens. I have
made
> an application to found one but if there are older citizens from
> Hibernia I would be more than happy for them to found and lead the
> gens.
> Valete,
> Urania Antonina

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:05:39 -0700 (PDT)

--- "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@strategikon.org>
wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus
> and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may
> have
> > had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without
> a
> > constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> > works, something that can't be said for the
> Consul's
> > proposals or any other untried proposal for
> reforms.
>
> My researches in the Tabularium can discover no law
> explaining how voting worked before 2754, so I must
> infer it from the election results. It seems that
> each
> century could cast only one vote, and that whichever
> two (or one in the case of Censor) candidates got
> most
> centuries won.

LSD: The first three Leges in the tabularium, enacted
by the Dictator Vedius, are the last election leges we
had that worked.
>
> In the Consular election of 18 December MMDCCLIII,
> 115
> centuries voted. The tied centuries were discounted,
> meaning that the votes of the people in those
> centuries were completely wasted. Of the remaining
> centuries, 37 voted for one candidate, 34 for
> another,
> and 29 for the third.
>
> 37, the highest total, was only 32% of the total.
> The
> second candidate got 29%. Is 32% of the electorate
> really enough to make someone consul?
>
> Yes, the system worked. But there are two important
> things about electoral systems. The first is that
> they
> must give a *fair* and *accurate* representation of
> the will of the electorate. Otherwise you could say
> that whichever candidate has the most letters in his
> name wins: no run-offs there!
>
> The system in place at in 2754 was not fair. The
> current system is not fair.

LSD: Enacting untried leges in attempts to be more
"fair" or historic is what got us into this mess in
the first place.
>
> > We need a system that we know works, not another
> > untried experiment that may do more harm than
> good,
> > one that we hve no way of finding out if it will
> work
> > or not before the end of the year elections.
>
> Senator, electoral systems are mathematical systems.
> You don't have to try them with real people to test
> whether they work, you just sit down and think.
> Well,
> I've sat down and thought about this one, and so
> have
> better mathematicians than I, and it works. It will
> work. It is mathematically almost impossible for it
> to
> fail.

LSD: A lot of people thought about the 2754 reforms
and failed to see the implications that are causing so
much trouble now. The greater complexity of the
proposed system increases the liklyhood of unforeseen
complications.
>
> Your idea about a test run is a very good one. We
> have
> plenty of time to do several tests of this system
> before the next elections. Let's do it. Senator
> Octavius Germanicus has said on this list that he
> could put together a computer simulation of an
> election in a matter of minutes. We can even try a
> couple of test-runs with real voters if you want. If
> you want it tested, then let's do it. If it were
> left
> to me, I wouldn't bother, because I've tested it in
> my
> head, I've tested it on paper with about a dozen
> different sets of candidates, and I know it works;
> but
> if others want to test it, I strongly encourage them
> to do so, and they too will find that it works.
>

LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared for
the posibility that it won't work, or that the voters
will dislike it after trying it and will reject it.
That is why I have called for starting out with
returning to the system we had prior to 2754. That
will ensure that a working system is in place prior to
the elections at the end of this year.

Lets get a system that we know is workable in place
first, then start looking at posible reforms to it.

As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold them
with Historic Romans as the canidates rather than our
present citizens. That could add a bit of intrest to
the situation.

On a futher note, I would also suggest that we
implement any reforms in stages. A Mock election is a
good test that will show the worst side of a proposed
reform, but it will never be quite the same as a real
election. I Would suggest that any reforms start out
by changing the method of electing the lesser
magistrates in the first election cycle, and if that
works, then we apply it to electing the Consuls and
the Praetors the following year.

Some may think I'm being overly cautionus, but the
last two elections have clearly shown the dangers of
rushing into elecorial reforms. We don't need a third
occurance of this.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Subject:	Varian coin, two sides, was Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das
From:	Pipar - Steven <catamount_grange@inwave.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:15:42 -0500

Salus et Fortuna,

Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>
> Salve Claudia Fabia Calpurnia
>
> [excision]
>
> I have only one regret in terms of German history
>
> WHY THE HELL DID WE DESTROY THOSE LEGIONS OF P. Quinctilius Varus
>
> We could have contributed to the empire and it that might have lasted ( longer) or at least civilized the "Teutonic " beast.
>
> QUINCTILIUS VARUS WERE ARE MY EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Pax
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>

Suffice to say that the majority of my ancestors lived across a wide swath of Mother Europe (plus a
few who came over the Land Bring from Asia to America millennia ago): Germanic, Nordic, Celtic,
Slavic, Italic, Hellenic, Iberic and proto-European; perhaps a decided touch of Etruscan.

My paternal grandfather's Gens Nomen (D'Orazio), can be traced through linguistic and folkloric
sources to the Horatii.

The majority of my ancestry, if looked at in the terms of what tribes were where in the year 9 of
the Common Era, is Germanic and Celtic.

I think that the result of the battle in the Teutoberg Forest had two sides, just as all the bloody
coins of war throughout the ages have had.

>From the Roman side, it was an unmitigated disaster. Three legions destroyed in toto. The advance
of the borders stopped. An inturning, perhaps, beginning, which led to the weakening of the State
institutions such that Rome was ripened for the influence of the Paulist sect of Christianity.

I thoughtfully left the Roman Catholic Church and Christian Religion over a quarter century ago. I
do think though, that the message of the Rabbi Yeshua, when unfiltered through the ambitions and
interpretations of others, is a good one, for the intended audience. This audience I believe, his
fellow Jews in Palestine, in the beginning of the first century of the Common Era.

>From the Germanic side, it was a good victory. It did allow these Northern Peoples to continue
their natural and cultural evolutions to continue more naturally then that of being molded into
Roman form. This did show in the transformation of Christianity, which eventually resulted in the
Protestant Reformation. ("The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity" - James C. Russell - is
a good treatise on the topic.)

Regardless of one's take on the matter, this historical nexus occurred and we live with the results.

Now, what lessons do we take from it and how do we improve the New Rome?

BTW, I'm communicado again ,-)

Really rough winter and spring healthwise for my wife and me (I tend to "den up" when I'm feeling
poorly). Job changes, some life changes... All in all, we've sailed through some storm tossed seas
and are on an even keel again.

Hope to add a cogent comment or three from now on...

Hail the Res Publica and People!

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Civis Nova Romana et Paterfamilias

Do that which is right for family and community,
with wisdom, generosity and personal honor,
being mindful of history, truth and duty.

/}
€‡‡‡‡‡‡‡{X|:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\}

Noli mictare en mura.

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Internet access and Election Laws
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:37:37 +0200

Salvete Quirites!

I have lost my Internet acces for a longer period today and still has
problems. Now I have guests and will maybe not be able to come back
until tomorrow afternoon.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:04:01 -0700 (PDT)

> 3) The Romans were blood thirsty and cruel! Look at
> their circuses of
> carnage! Well we have better technology.

Indeed the Romans, during war, like many great Empires
did commit atrocities and the circuses and the
gladiator bouts (I ramble on at length in my review of
the film "Gladiator" in our webzine:)


http://www.galacticapublishing.com/av_silver_screen.php

I do agree that our technology is better, and,
especially in regard to the modern British military
and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability to
do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
aptly termed "baby killers" ) that can kill from
thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
human eye), and the bombing raids that , PREDOMINANTLY
kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
mutilated children and women in Iraq, for example)is
beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
informative website (entitled "Iraq Body Count") that
shows the evidence of this form of high tech cruelty
is:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/




> discussion of the movie
> industry so far off topic to use it to say that all
> the graphic
> violent and horror movies make the best money at the
> box office? What
> does that say about our taste.


Yes, well, like I said, very similiar to the Gladiator
bouts that the great Stoic Marcus Aurelius banned.


> Mother -"Oh, you long haired hippy kids might well
> be our ruin!"
> Says Quintus, " Oh that's been said by all oldies
> for 3000 years
> Mother " Yes indeed! Aristotle said that to the
> Greeks...and they
> fell! Marcus Aurelius made a similar content about
> the Romans... and
> they fell, Churchill said that of the British
> Empire... and you
> guessed it... it fell!


:) All Empires die, (despite what Hitler said,in his
speeches of a Reich that is "eternal") no Empire is
free of the age of senility (just look at the American
Empire under the Bush dynasty!) and lasts "1000
years"...as Spengler wrote, "all civilizations have
their spring, summer, fall and winter and the West is
now seeing its own death..."

Cordially, Rory

PS: Has any one here studied the mythos of "Elysium"
at all? It has always interested me, but there doesn't
seem to be a large amount of material to study
pertaining this belief in the Roman afterlife....
So far the best book that i have come across is "The
Ancient Mysteries --- A Sourcebook: Sacred Texts of
the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean
World".....It includes pertinent information about the
Greek Mysteries of the Grain Mother and Daughter, the
Homeric Hymn to Demeter, The Andanian Mysteries of
Messenia, The Greek Mysteries of Dionysos, the
Anatolian Mysteries of the Great Mother and Her Lover,
and the Syrian Goddess, the Egyptian Mysteries of Isis
and Osiris, and best of all, the Roman Mysteries of
Mithras.....



=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."


http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:16:11 +0000

Salvete:

I don't understand why it has to be so complicated. I'd have to take a
day off just to read it, and figure out how it works. Even Florida has a
simpler system. As to authenticity, the ancient system was imperfect
bacause as any political system it had to accomodate local and contemporary
powerhouses and realities. But we have a republic to run with 21st century
problems and realities, and that requires 21st century solutions.
Everywhere in the 21st century magistrates are elected by majority vote.
Furthermore, we got 219 citizens (taxpayers), and these are the voters.
Somebody already alluded that we are small and need a simple system. Why
not a majority vote system and the 2 top candidates for runoffs.

I appreciate Diana Moravia bringing up the issue, and these are my
comments. 1 opinion out of 1554, or 1 vote out of 219.

Valete

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator

_________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Congratulations
From:	"MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS" <cybernaut911@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:25:19 -0000

AVE , DIANA,

How remiss of me! In my last post I forgot to extend to you my
warmest congratulations on your attainment of the office of TRIBUNIS
PLEBIS - in my view an essential office in the good government of
RES PVBLICA.

As you may know I chose my COGNOMEN 'GRACCHVS' in honour of the
GRACCHI brothers, and in particular, Ti. SEMPRONIVS GRACCHVS.

May the Muses send you all the knowledge, support and inspiration
you need. As you know, a champion of the people with INTERCESSIO,
is an important check and balance in our system of republican
government.

VALE ET BONA FORTVNA


M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS

" TERRARVM DEA GENTIVMQVE ROMA CVI PAR EST NIHIL ET NIHIL
SECVNDVM "

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] HAPPY SUMMER SOLSTICE!
From:	GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:01:12 -0700 (PDT)

SALVETE OMNES! This morning at my Lararium I recited
the hymn to SOL in honor of the Solstice and offered
Sol incense. Then of course I made offerings to my Dei
Familiae. This hymn by the way is the one well known
by Marziano Capella and is commonly used by Roman
Pagans in Italia, namely the MTR. I want to wish all
my fellow Romani a very happy Summer Solstice! Buon
auguri! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
P.S. Besides Sol, Iuppiter Summanus and Fors
Fortuna is honored at this solstice period, June 19th
- 26th.

__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: HAPPY SUMMER SOLSTICE!
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:36:26 -0000

Salve and thank you Gai!

It will indeed be a special day for me since the god's have blessed
us with 24 hours of sunlight where I am working!

Regards,

Quintus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
wrote:
> SALVETE OMNES! This morning at my Lararium I recited
> the hymn to SOL in honor of the Solstice and offered
> Sol incense. Then of course I made offerings to my Dei
> Familiae. This hymn by the way is the one well known
> by Marziano Capella and is commonly used by Roman
> Pagans in Italia, namely the MTR. I want to wish all
> my fellow Romani a very happy Summer Solstice! Buon
> auguri! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
> P.S. Besides Sol, Iuppiter Summanus and Fors
> Fortuna is honored at this solstice period, June 19th
> - 26th.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:55:28 -0400

Sp. Postumius L. Sicinio Druso S.P.D.

Salve Luci Sicini,

<snipped>

> LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared for
> the posibility that it won't work, or that the voters
> will dislike it after trying it and will reject it.
> That is why I have called for starting out with
> returning to the system we had prior to 2754. That
> will ensure that a working system is in place prior to
> the elections at the end of this year.

If this is the case, and we do need to be prepared for the citizens' distaste for it, why not simply start with a trial run _before_ we put it to the voters for a final vote? I see no reason to revert to old, ahistorical ways if we can try a new, historical way before it is fully put to a vote for ratification or failure. Do you agree?

<more snipping>

> As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold them
> with Historic Romans as the canidates rather than our
> present citizens. That could add a bit of intrest to
> the situation.

Why not? I say a consular election, with some historic consulars from the ancient days. What do you think, Senator Druse? I think this could be fun, as well as educating.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Latin to English Dictionary Program "WORDS"
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:03:31 -0400

Salve Quinte Lani,

http://users.erols.com/whitaker/wordsw95.htm

The executable files are about half-way down the page. There are two of them. Instructions are on-page.

Vale,

Postumius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic? / Symbolism of Jesus Christ Superstar Film
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:11:54 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Heathen Renewal
<heathenrenewal@y...> wrote:
>
>Read it all but snipped for space>

Salve Rory, Thank you for your response to my posting. I know you are
practicing other religion but if you get a chance I recommnend you
watch the video musical , Jesus Christ, Superstar made about 1972 and
filmed in Israel.

The reason for suggesting this is not for the religious aspect but
for the historical political situation.There is so much symbolism
showing similarities between Roman Judea and the modern middle East:

1) The scenes, music and dances are filmed in the Roman and Judean
ruins.

2) The populus are half dressed in ancient garb as well as the other
half being blue jeans and colorful hippy clothing.

3) The Romans soldiers are wearing purple shirts and chromed American
Helmets; they carry their piliums on one hand but have replaced their
side gladius with an uzi submachine gun.

4) The protestors and followers of Jesus look half like hippies and
half like the Roman mob and protests are similar between what
historians described and the peace movements of 35 years ago.

5) Herod's audience with Christ is a scream; also his ancient court
is turned into the epitamy of modern looking decadence with weirdos
and the like.

6) As Jesus chases the money lenders from the temple you see him
turning over tables with ancient lamps, amphora silks and spices yet
the same tables in the temple have cocaine, hash pipes, heroin, heavy
machine guns and sexy women peddling their you know whats.


All this symbolism did a good job in tying the situations and values
of that time in the ancient world to what goes on today and that
Jesus would have been treated much the same to day, possibly killed
though not by an elaborate cruxifiction.

Regards,

Quintus

PS: I'll cruise the net today and check into articles about the Roman
afterlife.

> Cordially, Rory
>
> PS: Has any one here studied the mythos of "Elysium"
> at all? It has always interested me, but there doesn't
> seem to be a large amount of material to study
> pertaining this belief in the Roman afterlife....
> So far the best book that i have come across is "The
> Ancient Mysteries --- A Sourcebook: Sacred Texts of
> the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean
> World".....It includes pertinent information about the
> Greek Mysteries of the Grain Mother and Daughter, the
> Homeric Hymn to Demeter, The Andanian Mysteries of
> Messenia, The Greek Mysteries of Dionysos, the
> Anatolian Mysteries of the Great Mother and Her Lover,
> and the Syrian Goddess, the Egyptian Mysteries of Isis
> and Osiris, and best of all, the Roman Mysteries of
> Mithras.....
>
>
>
> =====
> "Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I
stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty
women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."
>
>
> http://www.galacticapublishing.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:26:28 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> LSD: The first three Leges in the tabularium,
enacted
> by the Dictator Vedius, are the last election leges
> we had that worked.

Indeed, thank you. I looked at these, but the section
on voting was in amongst various other provisions, and
I missed it. My mistake.

> LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared
> for the posibility that it won't work, or that the
> voters will dislike it after trying it and will
> reject it.

I am certainly prepared for the latter possibility. As
for the former, certainly, let us test it. Shall we
try some computer simulations first? These can be done
as soon as anyone with the necessary expertize can
write the programme - a matter of days at most, if I
understand it aright. Once written, the computer
programme can simulate umpteen different elections in
a very short space of time. The most thorough test you
could wish for should be over within a couple of
weeks.

Then we can run a couple of real-life simulations, if
you like. We can dispense with the contio, because the
candidates will not be real. 5 days from beginning to
end of the voting period, so let's allow a week for
each mock-election. Two ought to be enough.

So in less than a month we'll have finished the tests.
Why, then, would there be any need to change back to
the pre-'54 system before then? We can just do the
tests and then vote on the proposed system.

> As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold
> them with Historic Romans as the canidates rather
> than our present citizens. That could add a bit of
> intrest to the situation.

That seems like a fine idea.

Let's get started. If anyone out there can write the
computer programme, I'll happily explain to them how
the system works so they can get it running.

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:34:02 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Galerius Peregrinator,
greetings.

> I don't understand why it has to be so complicated.
> I'd have to take a day off just to read it, and
> figure out how it works.

I assure you that it is not, in fact, very
complicated. It is long, but really quite simple. For
the voter, it is extremely simple: you just vote 'yes'
to every candidate you like.

> Everywhere in the 21st century magistrates are
> elected by majority vote... Why
> not a majority vote system and the 2 top candidates
> for runoffs.

That is almost exactly what this system is.

Imagine, if there are three candidates, and none of
them receive a majority. You could eliminate the one
who got fewest votes, and have another vote. But we
all know that run-offs have poor turn-outs and are
very tedious.

The proposed system is *mathematically identical*, but
rather than having two separate votes, they are both
done at once. The Rogators do the hard work, not the
voters, and the result is the same. Nice and easy. :)

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:54:50 -0700 (PDT)

--- "Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
wrote:
> Sp. Postumius L. Sicinio Druso S.P.D.
>
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> <snipped>
>
> > LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> > system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared
> for
> > the posibility that it won't work, or that the
> voters
> > will dislike it after trying it and will reject
> it.
> > That is why I have called for starting out with
> > returning to the system we had prior to 2754. That
> > will ensure that a working system is in place
> prior to
> > the elections at the end of this year.
>
> If this is the case, and we do need to be prepared
> for the citizens' distaste for it, why not simply
> start with a trial run _before_ we put it to the
> voters for a final vote? I see no reason to revert
> to old, ahistorical ways if we can try a new,
> historical way before it is fully put to a vote for
> ratification or failure. Do you agree?
>

The proposed system is hardly more historic than the
present system, or the older system.

If we wanted a truely historic system, then we would
start by drawing lots to determine a Junior Century of
the first class which would vote and have it's votes
counted and announced before anyone else voted. Each
of the remaining Centuries of the first class would
then vote in turn, with the votes being counted as
each Century compleated it's turn. Next the Second
Class would vote, then the third class. Voting would
stop when two consuls had been elected so the fourth
and fifth classes along with the head count might not
even be called apon to cast ballots.

This is how the Romans avoided runoffs. They knew each
canidate's relative postion in the ongoing talley and
could throw thier support behind a canidate who was
the "lesser of the two evils" if thier prefered
canidate no longer stood a chance of winning.


> <more snipping>
>
> > As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold
> them
> > with Historic Romans as the canidates rather than
> our
> > present citizens. That could add a bit of intrest
> to
> > the situation.
>
> Why not? I say a consular election, with some
> historic consulars from the ancient days. What do
> you think, Senator Druse? I think this could be fun,
> as well as educating.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sp. Postumius Tubertus
>

It would be educational for our citizens, because
spokesmen for the canidates would also be teaching
about some of the historic Consulars.

let's see,
Q. Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cunctator
P. Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus Africanus Numantinus
C. Marius
L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
C. Julius Caesar

would make for an intresting and varried slate of
canidates.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:12:42 -0700 (PDT)

--- "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@strategikon.org>
wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus
> and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > LSD: The first three Leges in the tabularium,
> enacted
> > by the Dictator Vedius, are the last election
> leges
> > we had that worked.
>
> Indeed, thank you. I looked at these, but the
> section
> on voting was in amongst various other provisions,
> and
> I missed it. My mistake.
>
> > LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
> > system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared
> > for the posibility that it won't work, or that the
> > voters will dislike it after trying it and will
> > reject it.
>
> I am certainly prepared for the latter possibility.
> As
> for the former, certainly, let us test it. Shall we
> try some computer simulations first? These can be
> done
> as soon as anyone with the necessary expertize can
> write the programme - a matter of days at most, if I
> understand it aright. Once written, the computer
> programme can simulate umpteen different elections
> in
> a very short space of time. The most thorough test
> you
> could wish for should be over within a couple of
> weeks.
>
> Then we can run a couple of real-life simulations,
> if
> you like. We can dispense with the contio, because
> the
> candidates will not be real. 5 days from beginning
> to
> end of the voting period, so let's allow a week for
> each mock-election. Two ought to be enough.
>
> So in less than a month we'll have finished the
> tests.
> Why, then, would there be any need to change back to
> the pre-'54 system before then? We can just do the
> tests and then vote on the proposed system.
>
> > As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold
> > them with Historic Romans as the canidates rather
> > than our present citizens. That could add a bit of
> > intrest to the situation.
>
> That seems like a fine idea.
>
> Let's get started. If anyone out there can write the
> computer programme, I'll happily explain to them how
> the system works so they can get it running.
>
> Cordus
>

LSD: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm145.html

That newspaper headline announced that President
Truman had lost his reelection bid. All the Polls, the
early retuns and the mathmatical models showed that
Truman had lost the Election. A Funny thing happened
though, when the Votes were counted, President Truman
had been reelected.

Humans are simply too complex for a computer
simulation to take thier behavior into account. A Mock
Election with citizens casting real ballots will not
only give us a better look at how a proposed system
will work in Nova Roma, it will also have the
desirable effects of letting citizens take it for a
"test drive" before they buy it, and will help ensure
that they are familar with the new system when they
cast actual ballots at the end of the year if we do
decide to adopt it.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Testing the Electional proposal
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 21:38:13 +0200

Salvete Quirites!

I will organise somekind of test of the proposed Electoral law and I
will be back soon.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:01:18 -0700 (PDT)

--- Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> wrote:
SNIP
> I do agree that our technology is better, and,
> especially in regard to the modern British military
> and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
> and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability to
> do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
> aptly termed "baby killers" )

LSD: Many? That term is mainly used by the far left's
lunatic fringe.

>that can kill from
> thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
> human eye), and the bombing raids that ,
> PREDOMINANTLY
> kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
> mutilated children and women in Iraq, for example)is
> beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
> informative website (entitled "Iraq Body Count")
> that
> shows the evidence of this form of high tech cruelty
> is:
>
> http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
>

LSD: The upper estimate (7240) is still far lower than
the number of Iraqis found in mass graves, murdered by
the Bathist regime that the left tried so hard to keep
in power.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:24:11 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS <cybernaut911@yahoo.co.uk>
Date : 21 June 2003 15:02:13

>MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS QVIRITIBVS S.P.D.
>
>AVETE,
>
Ave Marce Calidi et avete omnes,
I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all! Perhaps just as well or I might not have applied to the Honourable Gens Ambrosia with its gods including Sul-Minerva, in memory of living close to Aquae Sulis and Silbury. Though as my cognomen shows, I originate from somewhat further South! I wonder how many of us there are?
Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:35:46 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date : 21 June 2003 15:04:01

>I do agree that our technology is better, and,
>especially in regard to the modern British military
>and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
>and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability to
>do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
>aptly termed “baby killers“ ) that can kill from
>thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
>human eye), and the bombing raids that , PREDOMINANTLY
>kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
>mutilated children and women in Iraq, for example)is
>beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
>informative website (entitled “Iraq Body Count“) that
>shows the evidence of this form of high tech cruelty
>is:
>
We have improved perhaps in our attitude to slaves, though today of course everybody is a kind of slave. War becomes more bloody as it becomes more distanced of course. What is often so striking is that men are far less often cowards for fear of death than for horror of *killing*. Ancient war meant some poor bugger on the end of your spear where you could feel him wriggling. Modern is increasingly a video game.
Earlier this year there was a 'reunion' in Havana of top brass involved in the 1963 Missile Crisis (surprising so many are still alive!). They just could not believe how, isolated in their bunkers, both sides were talking glibly of nuclear holocaust and first strike, and even Fidel prepared to go up in flames by retaliating if the USA invaded. Not fof nothing, that policy was called MAD.

Caesariensis.

The only lightless dark is the night of darkness in ignorance and insensibility. - Helen Keller



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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT)

--- me-in-@disguise.co.uk wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> To : Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Date : 21 June 2003 15:04:01
>
> >I do agree that our technology is better, and,
> >especially in regard to the modern British military
> >and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
> >and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability
> to
> >do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
> >aptly termed “baby killers“ ) that can kill from
> >thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
> >human eye), and the bombing raids that ,
> PREDOMINANTLY
> >kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
> >mutilated children and women in Iraq, for
> example)is
> >beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
> >informative website (entitled “Iraq Body Count“)
> that
> >shows the evidence of this form of high tech
> cruelty
> >is:
> >
> We have improved perhaps in our attitude to slaves,
> though today of course everybody is a kind of slave.

LSD: True, Modern Tax systems force people to spend
part of thier lives as public slaves.

> War becomes more bloody as it becomes more distanced
> of course. What is often so striking is that men are
> far less often cowards for fear of death than for
> horror of *killing*. Ancient war meant some poor
> bugger on the end of your spear where you could feel
> him wriggling. Modern is increasingly a video game.
> Earlier this year there was a 'reunion' in Havana
> of top brass involved in the 1963 Missile Crisis
> (surprising so many are still alive!). They just
> could not believe how, isolated in their bunkers,
> both sides were talking glibly of nuclear holocaust
> and first strike, and even Fidel prepared to go up
> in flames by retaliating if the USA invaded. Not fof
> nothing, that policy was called MAD.

Oh Please!
Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
rates.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:27:08 -0000

> Oh Please!
> Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
> the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
> of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
> Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
> weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> rates.
>
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
>Salvete,

I would have to agree here. In ancient times when Carthage, Corinth,
Jeruselem etc. were being punished for rebellion the conquering
soldiers "personally" singled out each screaming innocent civilian
and put them to the sword. Read Josephus on the seige of Jeruselem
and you'll see it wasn't pretty.

The WW11 was tit for a tat; on a heavy bombing run on some cities
which initiated fire storms and all tens of thousands died.

Today they say the explosives are far more powerful yet their
deliveries are of course far more accurate even though there are
errors sometimes. So if during the bombing of Belgrade by Nato or
Bahgdad a few months ago, they were "really" trying to target
civilians or at least operate without any regards to some sort of
safety then the civilian death rates should have been more
catastrophic like 50 - 100,000 deaths per night in these 2 cities;
not several hundred in each. Also the fact that the military
installations and communication buildings are put right in civilian
areas does not seem to help matters much. There were such bases
around when I was young and still are but they're well away from the
downtown and suburban areas and especially not inside churches; just
a small recruiting office was downtown.


Regards,

Quintus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:29:17 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> The proposed system is hardly more historic than the
> present system, or the older system.

Well, Senator, the proposed system is certainly more
historical at the first stage of the process, that is,
the ballot-paper.

> This is how the Romans avoided runoffs. They knew
> each canidate's relative postion in the ongoing
> talley and could throw thier support behind a
> canidate who was the "lesser of the two evils" if
> thier prefered canidate no longer stood a chance of
> winning.

I'm glad that you support this idea, because it is, in
fact, pretty much what the Consul's proposed system
does! The difference is this:

In the historical version, when centuries voted one
after another, you would have to wait to see whether
your preferred candidate had a chance of winning, and,
if not, vote for your second favourite; or, if he too
stood no chance, your third, and so on.

In the proposed system, you are saved a lot of trouble
by being able to indicate *everyone* you would
consider voting for at the same time. Then, as the
centuries are counted, if a century's first-choice
candidate has no chance, its second-choice candidate
will receive its vote; or, failing that, its third,
and so on.

So in fact the Consul's proposal is very considerably
more historical than the current system, in which if
your first choice stands no chance, your vote is
wasted!

If I may be so bold, I would suggest that it is a
system the Romans, had they needed to organize voting
across large distances, would have found very
compatible with their traditional methods.

Cordus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:29:43 -0300 (ART)

Salve

--- me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu: > -----Original
Message-----
[..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
[..] I wonder how many of us there are?
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.


According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
Hibernia:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives

Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
Titus Octavius Nevinus
Titus Maxentius Verus
Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso


Vale
Marcus Arminius

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Lessons of Terror: History of Warfare Against Civilians: Chpt 1: Rome
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:48:04 -0000

Salvete omnes,

To help keep this "offtopic" conversation as some citizens may soon
point out in the spirit of Rome I will be councillitory today and
deflect this conversation to the business of Rome.

Here is an interesting article by the Washington Post called: The
Lessons of Terror: A Hstory of Warefare Against Civilians- Why It
Does Not Work - Chapter 1 - Rome. It is fairly long for a posting so
here is the MRL - Let' all involved in this discussion read the
article and comment later.






http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/thelessonsofterror.htm



Regards,


Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel=20Dugdale?= <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:52:09 +0100 (BST)

Hello everyone,

Sorry to have been rather quiet of late - it's been a
busy term full of logic, the Iliad and classical
philology! However I have been following the recent
discussion of the proposed electoral reforms with
great interest, and couldn't help jumping in at this
point. As it happens, I support the new proposal, but
what I'm about to say isn't an argument in favour of
any given system: it's just facts about the way in
which maths, statistics and human behaviour relate to
one another.

Senator L. Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> Humans are simply too complex for a computer
> simulation to take thier behavior into account.

I'm afraid this simply isn't true.

If an election - for simplicity's sake, let's say an
election to fill one post, with two candidates running
- has candidates A and B, there are relatively few
ways in which any given voter can feel towards them.
They might prefer A over B, or vice versa, or they
might like both equally, or dislike both with equal
intensity. These are the only options, regardless of
the complex humanity underlying the choice of one over
the other. Likewise if there are more candidates, or
more vacancies, the number of options increases but
not infinitely, and certainly there is still a fairly
simple mathematical formula for working out how many
options there are. A computer simulation can
therefore allocate an order of preference of
candidates randomly to any individual member of its
simulation.

Under the proposed system, the only really important
thing for the voting is whether an individual likes
any given candidate enough to vote for them. This can
equally well be computer-generated by giving each
voter, within their ordered preference list (as we
have just discussed generating), an arbitrary cut-off
point determining which candidates they like enough,
and which they don't. Again, regardless of underlying
complexities, there are only a finite number of
options.

The next point is where I suspect your concerns arise,
and that is in that we can't know *which* of the
randomly generated individuals with preferences
represent the ways in which Nova Romans would behave
at an election. But the fact of the matter is, a good
system should work under *all* circumstances, not just
those which happen to be the case at the moment.

A computer simulation can be run repeatedly, and
repeatedly it will show you whether or not the full
quota of candidates are elected, and whether those who
are have public support (within the simulated
community). This is valuable information for
assessing the efficacy of an electoral system.

Computer simulations can also be asked to deal with
extremes, thereby showing any cracks which may emerge:
in fact we have already discussed the possibility of a
genuine tie in public opinion, and the fact that under
the proposed system this would have to be resolved by
lot - but if the people are genuinely divided in their
opinion, what system can truly deal with this within
its normal framework?

The Truman case is interesting - as the Senator has
spotted, it shows that polls and simulations can't
tell the future. After all, what if someone votes
differently to how they've said they will in the poll?
What if the pollers haven't asked a sample of people
with truly representative views? Then of course their
predictions will be wrong.

No-one is proposing a computer simulation to determine
who will win the next elections. What has been
suggested is a simulation to test a system, which is
something simulations are perfectly fitted to do,
since *systems* aren't subject to human
errors/irrationality. True, the thing they don't
account for is rogators making mistakes, but I trust
our magistrates that this will not happen (or will be
spotted before the results of any election are
published, anyhow).

It is a simple fact that some systems are fairer than
others, in terms of representing the will of the
voters. A vast quantity of research been done on
this, and because it is the system rather than the
result which is tested, the conclusions are valid.
While this proposal was in its infancy, I did a fair
amount on it myself, and am quite prepared to discuss
it further with anyone who's interested, in respect of
this or any other electoral reform proposal which
might be forthcoming.

As ever,

G. Fabia Livia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Lessons of Terror: History of Warfare Against Civilians: Chpt 1: Rome
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:58:17 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Lanius Paulinus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Here is an interesting article by the Washington
> Post called: The Lessons of Terror: A Hstory of
> Warefare Against Civilians- Why It Does Not Work -
> Chapter 1 - Rome.

Thanks for this article.

I wouldn't for a moment wish to suggest that the
methods used by some Roman generals was akin to what
we would call terrorism - another example is the
simultaneous and largely unprovoked sacking a number
(was it seven?) Greek cities by order of Aemilius
Paullus, an otherwise upstanding Roman of great
repute.

However, I think it must be said, lest anyone think
that the Romans invented such wartime behaviour, that
Alexander the Great did it just as efficiently, if not
more so. Bosworth has an excellent article on
Alexander's campaign against the Malli (an Indian
people) which describes his methods - I shall try to
remember in what publication it appeared. And no doubt
others before Alexander did the same, sad to say.

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Lesson in terror - Url too long - post article
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:15:19 -0000

Salvete,

Posting article again; what's up with Yahoo. Sorry if this double
posts.


Quintus





The Lessons of Terror: A History of Warfare Against Civilians: Why It
Has Always Failed and Why It Will Fail Again

By Caleb Carr

Chapter One

A CATASTROPHE, NOT A CURE

Long before the deliberate military targeting of civilians as a
method of affecting the political behavior of nations and leaders
came to be called terrorism, the tactic had a host of other names.
>From the time of the Roman republic to the late eighteenth century,
for example, the phrase that was most often used was destructive war.
The Romans themselves often used the phrase punitive war, although
strictly speaking punitive expeditions and raids were only a part of
destructive war. For while many Roman military campaigns were indeed
undertaken as punishment for treachery or rebellion, other
destructive actions sprang out of the simple desire to impress newly
conquered peoples with the fearsome might of Rome, and thereby (or so
it was hoped) undercut any support for indigenous leaders. In
addition, there was a pressing need to allow the famous Roman
legions, who were infamously underpaid, to plunder and rape as a
reward for their almost inhuman steadiness in the heat of battle. The
example of Rome incorporates nearly every possible permutation of
warfare against civilians. In this as in so many things, antiquity's
greatest state provided a remarkably complete set of precedents for
many later Western republics and empires.

The Romans knew only one way to fight—with relentless yet disciplined
ferocity—but they eventually devised several ways to deal with the
peace that ensued. The first and most successful was inclusive in
nature: the peoples of conquered provinces could, if they agreed to
abide by Roman authority and law, aspire to become citizens of the
republic (and later the empire). Indeed, some new subjects,
particularly merchants and other civic leaders, could achieve the
status quite quickly. Even slaves could aspire to citizenship, for
early on the Romans had devised a remarkable system of manumission,
providing multiple avenues by which slaves could escape the
hopelessness of unending bondage (and the tendency toward rebellion
that hopelessness often breeds) by attempting to earn, buy, or be
granted first freedom and then actual citizenship. Freedmen played an
important part in Roman history (more than one emperor was saved by a
loyal freedman); and on the whole, these complementary policies—
granting citizenship to conquered peoples and offering slaves the
hope of manumission—may safely be called the central foundation on
which the near millennium of Roman hegemony rested.

But like so many empires and great powers that followed them, the
Romans also engaged in more avaricious, less benevolent policies that
many times came close to undoing all the security and stability built
up by their genius. First among these was a pronounced taste for
revenge against enemies who were perceived as intractable or
treacherous—the most famous example of such mortal enemies being the
Carthaginian empire of the late third century b.c. and its leader,
Hannibal. The long years of struggle against Hannibal—whose raids and
campaigns throughout Italy bred both bloodthirsty hatred and a
powerful sense of vulnerability in his opponents—eventually led the
Romans, when they finally did occupy Carthage more than fifty years
later, to not only sack but utterly destroy the city. And although
they soon built their own urban center atop the ruins, the experience
gave apparent validation to an already unfortunate, even fatal,
tendency in both the Roman military and its masters in the Senate.

The razing of Carthage had been that rarest of things in a nation's
experience: the utter eradication not only of the enemy's home but of
many if not most of his people as well: men,women, children, even the
elderly. It was the epitome of destructive war, and the Romans not
only revered the memory of it but attempted at various times to
repeat it. In so doing, they planted at least a few of the seeds of
their own eventual downfall: for, along with being rare, the
destruction of Carthage would prove beyond replication. Yet the Roman
taste for vicious destructive war that the Carthaginian experience
sharpened grew stronger with each new generation, until it became
powerful enough to threaten the stability that the empire's brilliant
system of citizenship and manumission had made seem so unshakable.

Throughout the remainder of its history, Rome was dominated by the
tension between these two imperatives: on the one hand, the
enlightened desire to be an inclusive empire built not on destructive
war but on forceful economic and political expansion; and on the
other, the violent compulsion—bred in the army but fed by romantic
notions of war popular among all Roman citizens—to be a chauvinistic,
plundering state that simply took whatever it wanted from whoever had
it. Rome's metamorphosis into an empire just before the birth of
Christ tilted the scales alarmingly but inevitably in favor of the
second of these two conceptions, despite the efforts of several
perspicacious emperors to prevent such a shift. For, with the eclipse
of the Senate as the critical arm of government, the numerous
political factions vying for control of the state and balancing each
other's ambitions gave way to a very limited number of imperial
factions; and when power was being contested by just a few people who
were neither elected nor answerable to the citizenry, the army became
the single most important force in the maintenance of power. And it
was the army that had always looked to destructive war, first, as a
means with which to set grim examples for politically rebellious
subjects, second, to avenge any defeats and betrayals it sustained,
and lastly, as a way to augment the comparatively meager pay that
soldiers received and sate their appetites during campaigning.

It is not surprising, then, that Rome's imperial centuries were
characterized not only by more severe versions of the types of
warfare against civilians that had been a hallmark of military
activity during the republic, but by new and astoundingly savage—as
well as often gratuitous—destructive tactics. It has, of course, been
argued (not least by the Romans themselves) that the empire was
fighting barbarian tribes, and that its forces needed to adopt the
tactics of their enemies if they hoped to succeed. (Similar arguments
have often been employed by various individuals and groups during the
contemporary war against terrorism.) But quite apart from the fact
that the Romans were fighting not only barbarian tribes but
established, civilized societies such as the Jewish communities
located throughout what we now call the Middle East, Roman leaders
had already had ample time and experience to learn the speciousness
of this reasoning. In the first place, punitive and destructive war
against the nonwarrior members of any group that was not Roman
("barbarian" tribe or no) only led to the creation of generations of
anti-Roman sentiment within that group. Then, too, Rome was rarely at
war with entire tribes so much as with those charismatic leaders that
occasionally surfaced to lead their peoples in rebellion—peoples who,
again, had often been made restive by Roman crulety.

In other words, we can detect in the example of Rome the most
essential truth about warfare against civilians: that when waged
without provocation it usually brings on retaliation in kind, and
when turned to for retaliatory purposes it only perpetuates a cycle
of revenge and outrage that can go on for generations. Therefore it
should be avoided in both its forms—initial and reactive—for, again,
those nations and peoples who indulge in warfare against civilians to
the greatest extent will ultimately see their people and their
interests suffer to a similar degree. Rome's greatest conquests were
not achieved because of the depredations that occurred either to keep
troublesome subjects obedient or after battles and sieges had been
won; they were achieved despite those depredations and because the
promise of inclusion in the society and infrastructure of Rome was
too attractive for most people to refuse. The cruelties inflicted by
the Roman army achieved only the creation and perpetuation of
underlying bitterness, which could simmer and finally boil over into
open support for rebellious leaders who urged a return to more
traditional tribal societies.


© 2002 Caleb Carr

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Lex on Voting
From:	George Metz <legionxxiv@comcast.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:17:13 -0400

Avete et Salutatio Censors et Romani of NovaRoma:

As a Rogatore, I have reviewed the "Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum" and I find it reasonable and workable.

It appears to address the problem of repeat elections that have plagued NovaRoma for the last six months.

The work of the Rogatores will be increased during an election, but that
additional work should result in a completed election without need for the
follow-up elections; which only serve to take up the rogatores and citizens time.

I commend Caeso Fabius Quintilianus for his well thought out proposal
and encourage its enactment.

Yours in Service to NovaRoma

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Tribune Militarus - Praefectus, Legion XXIV MA









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum part X
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:54:26 -0000

Salve,

I've done some further thinking using the Honorable Senior Consul's
example from the handbook.

g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
1st C A C B A C A C C B B C A C C B C A A C
2nd A B A A B B C B A A A A C B A A B C C B
3rd B C B C C A B A B C C B B A B C A B B A

Please note that I've kept the first row the same but made a couple
alterations on the 2nd and 3rd line:

In total, 10 centuries chose C as their first preference, 6 chose A,
and only 4 chose B. None of these has a majority (11 or more), so the
lowest candidate, B, is eliminated. That's round one.

After dropping candidate B the "matrix" (hope I don't get sued for
copy right infringement by using that term <G>) looks like this:

g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
1st C A C A C A C C C A C C C A A C
2nd A A A C A A A A C A A C C
3rd C C C A A C C A C A A

Candidate C and candidate A both now hold 10 centuries a piece,
neither has a majority of 11 centuries, thus the election is
deadlocked.

The problem of ties can only occur in a situation where there is an
even number of centuries voting. Before anyone says that is unlikely
to happen, history shows it is quite likely to happen. In the Jan
17, 2003 runoff for Praetor only 52 centuries registered votes. In
the main election on Nov 24, 2002 70 centuries cast votes for the
office of Censor, 74 cast votes for the offices of Consul and
Praetor. In the main election held on Dec 17, 2001 156 centuries
cast votes in the Censor's race, 158 centuries in the Praetors.

I'm not sure what the best solution to the potential problem of ties
should be. I do know that having the Rogators toss coins, roll dice,
or toss yarrow sticks and consult the I-Ching isn't exactly the best
solution. For the record, during my term as Rogator we have never
tossed yarrow sticks and consulted the I-Ching, though the use of a
Ouija board was brought up a couple times. <grin>

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus