Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:06:19 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> That newspaper headline announced that President
> Truman had lost his reelection bid. All the Polls, the
> early retuns and the mathmatical models showed that
> Truman had lost the Election. A Funny thing happened
> though, when the Votes were counted, President Truman
> had been reelected.

Salve,

Actually the problem with the now famous "Dewey Defeats Truman"
prediction was the methodology in the polling. The samples were not
representative of the population because the sampling was done by
telephone. In 1948 telephones were most likely to be in homes of the
more well to do families who were more likely to vote Republican than
Uncle Jed who only saw a telephone when he loaded up the old truck
with Granny, Jethro, and Ellie May and made the weekly trip to the
Drucker's General Store down in Hooterville. Of course once he
struck oil, Uncle Jed became a good Republican under the watchful
eyes of Mr. Drysdale, but that's another story that you can watch on
Nick-At-Night. <GRIN>

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:15:12 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.

Salve, L. Sicini.

> LSD: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm145.html
>
> That newspaper headline announced that President
> Truman had lost his reelection bid. All the Polls, the
> early retuns and the mathmatical models showed that
> Truman had lost the Election. A Funny thing happened
> though, when the Votes were counted, President Truman
> had been reelected.
>
> Humans are simply too complex for a computer
> simulation to take thier behavior into account.

I think most survey research specialists would attribute the failure
of opinion polling in the Trumen-Dewey race to a flawed research
design, not the foibles of human unpredictability. The flaw in the
survey was selection of respondents from telephone books. The
distribution of home telephones in the U.S. in 1948 was heavily skewed
toward those socio-economic classes predisposed to vote for
Republicans. It is unsurprising from this selection of respondents
that a prediction of a landslide for Dewey would emerge.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:25:23 -0700 (PDT)

--- Rachel Dugdale <livia@strategikon.org> wrote:
SNIP
> Under the proposed system, the only really important
> thing for the voting is whether an individual likes
> any given candidate enough to vote for them.

LSD: That assumption is the first problem with a
simulation. "Liking" a canidate isn't the only reason
someone might vote for them. There is the posibility
of stragetic voting, wher someone dislikes canidate A,
and votes for canidates "B", "C", and "D", even though
they think little of "C" and "D", but only voted for
them to lessen "A"'s chances of winning.

There is also the posibility of deals. I'll vote for
"A", if you vote for "B". This type of deal making is
more likely to form a significant portion of the vote
in a small comunity where every one knows each other
(like Nova Roma)

No Computer model is going to be able to measure these
Human reactions towards the canidates on a given
slate.

These types of reactions create a built in bias
favoring the medicore canidate who is few people's
first choice, but who is considered unobjectable
enough to rank as a lot of people's third choice.

I Really don't think trading runoffs for medicore
magistrates will be much of a gain for Nova Roma.

This is why I think it's imperative that we test out
this system with real voters to lessen the chaces of
unpleasant surprises when we hold the actual election.

We have been tinkering with our Electorial system for
the past two years, and some of the Leges have
resulted in unexpected results. This wasn't because
the changes weren't well thought out, it's because
they failed to take the sometimes unexpected actions
of voters into consideration.

Because of the past surprises my policy wil be to vote
against ANY new Election Leges that haven't been
tested with mock elections.

I Strongly advise my fellow citizens to do likewise.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:44:19 -0700 (PDT)

--- GĄIVLIVSĄSCAVRVS <gfr@intcon.net> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, L. Sicini.
>
> > LSD:
> http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm145.html
> >
> > That newspaper headline announced that President
> > Truman had lost his reelection bid. All the Polls,
> the
> > early retuns and the mathmatical models showed
> that
> > Truman had lost the Election. A Funny thing
> happened
> > though, when the Votes were counted, President
> Truman
> > had been reelected.
> >
> > Humans are simply too complex for a computer
> > simulation to take thier behavior into account.
>
> I think most survey research specialists would
> attribute the failure
> of opinion polling in the Trumen-Dewey race to a
> flawed research
> design, not the foibles of human unpredictability.
> The flaw in the
> survey was selection of respondents from telephone
> books. The
> distribution of home telephones in the U.S. in 1948
> was heavily skewed
> toward those socio-economic classes predisposed to
> vote for
> Republicans. It is unsurprising from this selection
> of respondents
> that a prediction of a landslide for Dewey would
> emerge.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
>

"The percentage of American households with telephone
service reached fifty percent in 1945, seventy percent
in 1955, and ninety percent in 1969."
http://www.att.com/history/history3.html

If we assume that the 20% growth between 1945 and 1955
was constant we have 2% a year, or 56% in 1948.

This wasn't solely based on economic lines. Persons
living in Rural areas were far less likely to have
phone service. Rural voters outside of the Southern
States were far more likely to vote Republican than
Democratic. Urban voters were more likely to have
Telephones, and the urban voters would include the
Union members who were very likely to vote Democratic.

The failure was the timing of the polls, in October,
and a falure to anticipate that Truman's whistle stop
campaign would swing a large number of voters.

Dewey's support was there in October, but it was
softer than the polls revealed, a failure to take the
Human element into consideration.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Digest No 652 Re: Election Laws
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:48:20 -0400

Lucius Equitius Quiritibus SPD

An Idea occurred to me while I was reading through the various points of
view concerning the election laws. Since the cast votes will be held by the
Rogatores perhaps they could count them using various formulae. We could
then use the data to see if other methods could give clearer results. We may
even be "fortunate" enough to have to have some run-offs occur under some of
the various systems and not under others using the same vote. This could
prove, to a limited degree, that one system is better at avoiding seemingly
endless runoffs. The current system, the current proposal and the 2754
system could be tested, as well as other suggestions.
Of course the "official" results will have to conform to current leges...

Heck, we could even have a referendum stipulating that whichever system
produced the fewest/no runoffs (clearest) result would become the defacto
election law.

Then again, if you all just have to make changes now, have at it.
If it were up to me I'd vote to return to the system that worked rather than
reinventing the wheel... again.

Valete Quirites
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:05:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Election Laws

--- "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@strategikon.org>
wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator L. Sinicius Drusus
> and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > The system we used prior to changes in 2754 may
> have
> > had some flaws, but it elected magistrates without
> a
> > constant series of runoffs. We KNOW that system
> > works, something that can't be said for the
> Consul's
> > proposals or any other untried proposal for
> reforms.
>
> My researches in the Tabularium can discover no law
> explaining how voting worked before 2754, so I must
> infer it from the election results. It seems that
> each
> century could cast only one vote, and that whichever
> two (or one in the case of Censor) candidates got
> most
> centuries won.

LSD: The first three Leges in the tabularium, enacted
by the Dictator Vedius, are the last election leges we
had that worked.
>
> In the Consular election of 18 December MMDCCLIII,
> 115
> centuries voted. The tied centuries were discounted,
> meaning that the votes of the people in those
> centuries were completely wasted. Of the remaining
> centuries, 37 voted for one candidate, 34 for
> another,
> and 29 for the third.
>
> 37, the highest total, was only 32% of the total.
> The
> second candidate got 29%. Is 32% of the electorate
> really enough to make someone consul?
>
> Yes, the system worked. But there are two important
> things about electoral systems. The first is that
> they
> must give a *fair* and *accurate* representation of
> the will of the electorate. Otherwise you could say
> that whichever candidate has the most letters in his
> name wins: no run-offs there!
>
> The system in place at in 2754 was not fair. The
> current system is not fair.

LSD: Enacting untried leges in attempts to be more
"fair" or historic is what got us into this mess in
the first place.
>
> > We need a system that we know works, not another
> > untried experiment that may do more harm than
> good,
> > one that we hve no way of finding out if it will
> work
> > or not before the end of the year elections.
>
> Senator, electoral systems are mathematical systems.
> You don't have to try them with real people to test
> whether they work, you just sit down and think.
> Well,
> I've sat down and thought about this one, and so
> have
> better mathematicians than I, and it works. It will
> work. It is mathematically almost impossible for it
> to
> fail.

LSD: A lot of people thought about the 2754 reforms
and failed to see the implications that are causing so
much trouble now. The greater complexity of the
proposed system increases the liklyhood of unforeseen
complications.
>
> Your idea about a test run is a very good one. We
> have
> plenty of time to do several tests of this system
> before the next elections. Let's do it. Senator
> Octavius Germanicus has said on this list that he
> could put together a computer simulation of an
> election in a matter of minutes. We can even try a
> couple of test-runs with real voters if you want. If
> you want it tested, then let's do it. If it were
> left
> to me, I wouldn't bother, because I've tested it in
> my
> head, I've tested it on paper with about a dozen
> different sets of candidates, and I know it works;
> but
> if others want to test it, I strongly encourage them
> to do so, and they too will find that it works.
>

LSD: I'm glad you are prepared for a test of this
system, but in the meantime we have to be prepared for
the posibility that it won't work, or that the voters
will dislike it after trying it and will reject it.
That is why I have called for starting out with
returning to the system we had prior to 2754. That
will ensure that a working system is in place prior to
the elections at the end of this year.

Lets get a system that we know is workable in place
first, then start looking at posible reforms to it.

As for the Mock elections, I suggest that we hold them
with Historic Romans as the canidates rather than our
present citizens. That could add a bit of intrest to
the situation.

On a futher note, I would also suggest that we
implement any reforms in stages. A Mock election is a
good test that will show the worst side of a proposed
reform, but it will never be quite the same as a real
election. I Would suggest that any reforms start out
by changing the method of electing the lesser
magistrates in the first election cycle, and if that
works, then we apply it to electing the Consuls and
the Praetors the following year.

Some may think I'm being overly cautionus, but the
last two elections have clearly shown the dangers of
rushing into elecorial reforms. We don't need a third
occurance of this.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:56:53 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.

Salve, L. Sicini.

> Oh Please!
> Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
> the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
> of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
> Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
> weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> rates.

The examples of Troy and Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War
aren't particularly apt. The Homeric epics are not historical
accounts and the archaeology presumed to relate to the period of the
Trojan war suggests that earthquake was as damaging as the seige. In
the case of Carthage the taking of a single city seems hardly
analogous to modern warfare. In the case of Caesar's Gallic
campaigns, and this is true of ancient and medieval warfare generally,
the relatively low level of civilian casualties (and I am happy to
grant that there are occasional exceptions to this general tendency)
resulted from low population densities and the smaller zones of
lethality associated with ancient and medieval weapons; most civilian
casualties resulted from starvation and disease in the wake of an
army's foraging and destruction of food stores to deny them to the
enemy, and often resulted from the actions of armies nominally on the
"side" of the affected civilians. While there are several examples of
savage targeting of civilian populations, particularly in the context
of the early modern European wars of religion, it is with the
emergence of nationalism and gunpowder technology that the distinction
between civilian and combatant began to blur. The Spanish uprising
against the Bonapartes and the savage repression it prompted signalled
the potential for large scale slaughter which nationalism and firearms
portended. The emergence of industrialisation as an index of the
capacity of a nation to wage war sealed these developments and
ensured that industrial production centers, manned by civilians and
usually colocated with civilian population centers, would become
legitimate military targets. The emergence of aerial bombing
multiplied the carnage by bringing virtually all the industrial
capacity of an enemy within a combatant's zone of lethality.

That the civilian casualty rate in the U.S. invasion of Iraq was quite
low -- and I think that fact is indisputable -- is a function of the
effectiveness of bombing in the first Gulf war and post-war sanctions
in destroying the industrial base on the basis of which Iraq could
wage war. The increasing accuracy of munitions was a much less
important factor in reducing civilian casualties than the absence of
meaningful targets in locations rife with civilians.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"M Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 10:59:59 +1000

Can we agree that killing civilians is bad, and always has been, always will
be and move on?

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "GĄIVLIVSĄSCAVRVS" <gfr@intcon.net>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:56 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?

> G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, L. Sicini.
>
> > Oh Please!
> > Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
> > the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
> > of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
> > Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
> > weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> > rates.
>
> The examples of Troy and Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War
> aren't particularly apt. The Homeric epics are not historical
> accounts and the archaeology presumed to relate to the period of the
> Trojan war suggests that earthquake was as damaging as the seige. In
> the case of Carthage the taking of a single city seems hardly
> analogous to modern warfare. In the case of Caesar's Gallic
> campaigns, and this is true of ancient and medieval warfare generally,
> the relatively low level of civilian casualties (and I am happy to
> grant that there are occasional exceptions to this general tendency)
> resulted from low population densities and the smaller zones of
> lethality associated with ancient and medieval weapons; most civilian
> casualties resulted from starvation and disease in the wake of an
> army's foraging and destruction of food stores to deny them to the
> enemy, and often resulted from the actions of armies nominally on the
> "side" of the affected civilians. While there are several examples of
> savage targeting of civilian populations, particularly in the context
> of the early modern European wars of religion, it is with the
> emergence of nationalism and gunpowder technology that the distinction
> between civilian and combatant began to blur. The Spanish uprising
> against the Bonapartes and the savage repression it prompted signalled
> the potential for large scale slaughter which nationalism and firearms
> portended. The emergence of industrialisation as an index of the
> capacity of a nation to wage war sealed these developments and
> ensured that industrial production centers, manned by civilians and
> usually colocated with civilian population centers, would become
> legitimate military targets. The emergence of aerial bombing
> multiplied the carnage by bringing virtually all the industrial
> capacity of an enemy within a combatant's zone of lethality.
>
> That the civilian casualty rate in the U.S. invasion of Iraq was quite
> low -- and I think that fact is indisputable -- is a function of the
> effectiveness of bombing in the first Gulf war and post-war sanctions
> in destroying the industrial base on the basis of which Iraq could
> wage war. The increasing accuracy of munitions was a much less
> important factor in reducing civilian casualties than the absence of
> meaningful targets in locations rife with civilians.
>
> Vale.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Lex on Voting
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT)

--- George Metz <legionxxiv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Avete et Salutatio Censors et Romani of NovaRoma:
>
> As a Rogatore, I have reviewed the "Proposal for a
> Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum" and I
> find it reasonable and workable.
>
> It appears to address the problem of repeat
> elections that have plagued NovaRoma for the last
> six months.
>
Yes but does it create new problems?

There is a posibility that this sstem will create a
bias towards the medicore canidate.

No one foresaw the posibility of endless runoffs in
2754. If they had the present leges wouldn't be in the
Tabularium. It is also posible that this proposal will
create problems that noone has foreseen.

It will be a poor tradeoff if we swap runoffs for some
unforseen worse problem, which is why I think we need
to test this or any other proposal before we enact
another election law.

Ideally we should attempt at least two or three mock
elections, and phase any changes in so that we elect
the minor magistrates under the new laws this year,
and if all goes well elect al the magistrates under
itnext year.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:21:28 -0700 (PDT)

SOME people who have a bias against the United States
and it's military forces seem to be incapable of
refraining from introducing the subject into this
forum. I won't bring the subject up, but I won't let
thier slurs go unanswered either.

--- M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
wrote:
> Can we agree that killing civilians is bad, and
> always has been, always will
> be and move on?
>
> M Flavius Aurelius
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "GĄIVLIVSĄSCAVRVS" <gfr@intcon.net>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:56 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
>
>
> > G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.
> >
> > Salve, L. Sicini.
> >
> > > Oh Please!
> > > Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar
> results to
> > > the World Wars on the native population. The
> Nations
> > > of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the
> Trojan and
> > > Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st
> century
> > > weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> > > rates.
> >
> > The examples of Troy and Carthage at the end of
> the Third Punic War
> > aren't particularly apt. The Homeric epics are
> not historical
> > accounts and the archaeology presumed to relate to
> the period of the
> > Trojan war suggests that earthquake was as
> damaging as the seige. In
> > the case of Carthage the taking of a single city
> seems hardly
> > analogous to modern warfare. In the case of
> Caesar's Gallic
> > campaigns, and this is true of ancient and
> medieval warfare generally,
> > the relatively low level of civilian casualties
> (and I am happy to
> > grant that there are occasional exceptions to this
> general tendency)
> > resulted from low population densities and the
> smaller zones of
> > lethality associated with ancient and medieval
> weapons; most civilian
> > casualties resulted from starvation and disease in
> the wake of an
> > army's foraging and destruction of food stores to
> deny them to the
> > enemy, and often resulted from the actions of
> armies nominally on the
> > "side" of the affected civilians. While there are
> several examples of
> > savage targeting of civilian populations,
> particularly in the context
> > of the early modern European wars of religion, it
> is with the
> > emergence of nationalism and gunpowder technology
> that the distinction
> > between civilian and combatant began to blur. The
> Spanish uprising
> > against the Bonapartes and the savage repression
> it prompted signalled
> > the potential for large scale slaughter which
> nationalism and firearms
> > portended. The emergence of industrialisation as
> an index of the
> > capacity of a nation to wage war sealed these
> developments and
> > ensured that industrial production centers, manned
> by civilians and
> > usually colocated with civilian population
> centers, would become
> > legitimate military targets. The emergence of
> aerial bombing
> > multiplied the carnage by bringing virtually all
> the industrial
> > capacity of an enemy within a combatant's zone of
> lethality.
> >
> > That the civilian casualty rate in the U.S.
> invasion of Iraq was quite
> > low -- and I think that fact is indisputable -- is
> a function of the
> > effectiveness of bombing in the first Gulf war and
> post-war sanctions
> > in destroying the industrial base on the basis of
> which Iraq could
> > wage war. The increasing accuracy of munitions
> was a much less
> > important factor in reducing civilian casualties
> than the absence of
> > meaningful targets in locations rife with
> civilians.
> >
> > Vale.
> >
> > G. Iulius Scaurus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 01:55:14 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso salutem dicit.

Salve, L. Sicini.

> "The percentage of American households with telephone
> service reached fifty percent in 1945, seventy percent
> in 1955, and ninety percent in 1969."
> http://www.att.com/history/history3.html
>
> If we assume that the 20% growth between 1945 and 1955
> was constant we have 2% a year, or 56% in 1948.
>
> This wasn't solely based on economic lines. Persons
> living in Rural areas were far less likely to have
> phone service. Rural voters outside of the Southern
> States were far more likely to vote Republican than
> Democratic. Urban voters were more likely to have
> Telephones, and the urban voters would include the
> Union members who were very likely to vote Democratic.
>
> The failure was the timing of the polls, in October,
> and a falure to anticipate that Truman's whistle stop
> campaign would swing a large number of voters.
>
> Dewey's support was there in October, but it was
> softer than the polls revealed, a failure to take the
> Human element into consideration.

Truman won by a 4.4% margin while Gallop and Roper predicted a Dewey
victory margin ranging between 5-15%, which suggests that survey
design rather than the failure to poll in the last two weeks of the
election campaign. Your own data about home telephone ownership
confirms that predicating selection of the sample was biasing not only
on socio-economic class variables, but also geographically. There was
also an interaction effect with a reduction of campaign activities by
Dewey's supporters who believed the polling data, a variable suggested
by Republican Party National Committee Chairman Hugh Scott after the
election. There was a doctoral dissertation done in the mid-1980s (I
am blanking on the author's name; I think it was from Univ. of
Michaigan, but I may be misremembering -- the conclusions I remember
quite vividly because I read it in preparation for the first time I
taught the post-Civil War section of a U.S. history survey course; a
colleague who was an Americanist suggested it to me and it hadn't been
available all that long at that point in 1987) which examined Gallup's
1948 samples against voter registration data and found a 15-25%
pro-Republican bias.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 02:12:18 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus L. Sicinio Druso et M. Flavio Aurelio salutem dicit.

Salvete, L. Sicini et M. Flavi.

> SOME people who have a bias against the United States
> and it's military forces seem to be incapable of
> refraining from introducing the subject into this
> forum. I won't bring the subject up, but I won't let
> thier slurs go unanswered either.

I agree that the website recommended by Rory has a rather anti-U.S.
tone (and I point out again that anyone who thinks that civilian
casualty rates in the latest Gulf war are relatively high hasn't read
the post-WW II strategic bombing survey), but I don't see why
discussions of how and why modern rates of civilian casualties in war
differ from those of Roman warfare should be seen as off-topic. We
are, after all, a list of moderns devoted to things Roman and the
comparison of things Roman to our modern experience is fundamentally
pertinent.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:15:21 -0400

Salve

I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I treasure the individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on the web and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that talks about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE AMERICANS TIRADE.

No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the cause of the human race as the United States has. In the recent war in Iraq the American military went out of its way to keep civilian deaths to a minimum.

"no Empire is free of the age of senility (just look at the American Empire under the Bush dynasty!)"

I do love that most liberals, democrats and neo or Paleolithic socialists ( oh same thing) STILL underestimate George W. Bush. (They are going to underestimate him into a second term and a 49-50 state landslide)

But then most of the world still underestimates and undervalues the USA, which just goes to prove the old adage no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Can you really want a world where the leading power is Communist China, the former Soviet Union , a neo-Fascist Russia , Imperial France, Imperial or Nazi Germany , Pol Pot's Cambodia or Idi Amin's Uganda? to say nothing of any number of enlightened Islamic states.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Pacatumque reget patriis virtutibus orbem
----- Original Message -----
From: Heathen Renewal
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?

> 3) The Romans were blood thirsty and cruel! Look at
> their circuses of
> carnage! Well we have better technology.

Indeed the Romans, during war, like many great Empires
did commit atrocities and the circuses and the
gladiator bouts (I ramble on at length in my review of
the film "Gladiator" in our webzine:)

http://www.galacticapublishing.com/av_silver_screen.php

I do agree that our technology is better, and,
especially in regard to the modern British military
and more so the American, the cruelty is unrivalled
and is beyond anything the Romans had the ability to
do. The invisible stealth bombers (what many have
aptly termed "baby killers" ) that can kill from
thousands of feet away (while not even seen by the
human eye), and the bombing raids that , PREDOMINANTLY
kill innocent civilians (the grisly footage of the
mutilated children and women in Iraq, for example)is
beyond anything the Romans practiced. A good
informative website (entitled "Iraq Body Count") that
shows the evidence of this form of high tech cruelty
is:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

> discussion of the movie
> industry so far off topic to use it to say that all
> the graphic
> violent and horror movies make the best money at the
> box office? What
> does that say about our taste.

Yes, well, like I said, very similiar to the Gladiator
bouts that the great Stoic Marcus Aurelius banned.

> Mother -"Oh, you long haired hippy kids might well
> be our ruin!"
> Says Quintus, " Oh that's been said by all oldies
> for 3000 years
> Mother " Yes indeed! Aristotle said that to the
> Greeks...and they
> fell! Marcus Aurelius made a similar content about
> the Romans... and
> they fell, Churchill said that of the British
> Empire... and you
> guessed it... it fell!

:) All Empires die, (despite what Hitler said,in his
speeches of a Reich that is "eternal") no Empire is
free of the age of senility (just look at the American
Empire under the Bush dynasty!) and lasts "1000
years"...as Spengler wrote, "all civilizations have
their spring, summer, fall and winter and the West is
now seeing its own death..."

Cordially, Rory

PS: Has any one here studied the mythos of "Elysium"
at all? It has always interested me, but there doesn't
seem to be a large amount of material to study
pertaining this belief in the Roman afterlife....
So far the best book that i have come across is "The
Ancient Mysteries --- A Sourcebook: Sacred Texts of
the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean
World".....It includes pertinent information about the
Greek Mysteries of the Grain Mother and Daughter, the
Homeric Hymn to Demeter, The Andanian Mysteries of
Messenia, The Greek Mysteries of Dionysos, the
Anatolian Mysteries of the Great Mother and Her Lover,
and the Syrian Goddess, the Egyptian Mysteries of Isis
and Osiris, and best of all, the Roman Mysteries of
Mithras.....

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 23:29:29 -0400

Salve Marcus Arminius

"According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from Hibernia"

And there are ten times that many sons and daughters of Hibernia here as well.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: M Arminius Maior
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia

Salve

--- me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu: > -----Original
Message-----
[..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
[..] I wonder how many of us there are?
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.

According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
Hibernia:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives

Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
Titus Octavius Nevinus
Titus Maxentius Verus
Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso

Vale
Marcus Arminius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Lesson in terror-- comments
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:16:36 EDT

In a message dated 6/21/03 4:17:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjk@datanet.ab.ca writes:
> First among these was a pronounced taste for
> revenge against enemies who were perceived as intractable or
> treacherousâ€”the most famous example of such mortal enemies being the
> Carthaginian empire of the late third century b.c. and its leader,
> Hannibal. The long years of struggle against Hannibalâ€”whose raids and
> campaigns throughout Italy bred both bloodthirsty hatred and a
> powerful sense of vulnerability in his opponentsâ€”eventually led the
> Romans, when they finally did occupy Carthage more than fifty years
> later, to not only sack but utterly destroy the city.

I've read this over simplification of the eradication of Carthage before, and
it falls far from the reality of the situation. Carthage was much like
Capua, or Veii, as long as it existed, the Republic was in danger, both militarily
and economically. Under the Barcas it reached its zenith, and it was from its
ability to recover economcally in such a short time after the crippling
second war, that the Roman high command recognized that the Punics would always be
a economic thorn in the Republic's side. Therefore they first tried to
neutralize the city, and get them to relocate, away from the sea. Only when the
Carthaginians refused, that the pro war party made its plans to eliminate it,
using revenge as the motive.
Actually if you study the Republic's history you see this pattern repeated
over and over again against economic rivals. The Carthage solution was not an
isolated incident, just a well publicized one.

Roman punitive measures would be applied to any nation who broke faith with
the Republic.
Hispania and Germania both spring to mind here. Hispania was called the
"fiery" war for a reason, Spanish chieftains tended to break their given word when
convenient. This of course was against the Roman view of declared allied
behavior, and Praetors would be given free reign to cause punishment to set
examples. (The fact the Romans often caused this behavior to occur, made no
difference, oath breaking was a serious business.)
Germania's revolt of Hermann and the Cherusci was burned into their
collective conscience for years. Even Florus in the second century was appalled, years
after the event.
Herman had been an ally and friend of the Roman people, made a knight and was
given the Latin name Arminius. However, he turned on his "allies" during
Varus' return from summer quarters on the Weser. Why? The blame seems to fall
squarely on the Praetor. Varus had been successful in Syria, as Praetor, made
wealth and returned a rich man. We assume he was given the province by
Augustus after Tiberius' withdrawal, for his handling of Syria. What Varus didn't
realize was Germania was no Syria, civilized with road networks, and the proud
Germans were no Syrians. Second, Germania was not Gaul, there were no
dwellings for Germans to defend, nor was there areas to be plundered. The Romans
would have to build the urban centers, and populate them with willing Germans.
Roman morale was never its highest in the trackless forest of Germania.
Germania could only be conquered with cooperation from the Germans
themselves. And when this proved impossible, the destruction of three legiones and
10,000 auxiliaries became a major symbol in the average Roman mind, of the
prospect that the cost was too high.
Indeed that became the rallying cry of all Emperors faced with dealing with
Germania.

The point was that this use of "terror" was just not true. Romans were very
pragmatic. They were the friends of friends, but the enemies of enemies. If
one wishes to study the use of terror in conquest, study the Assyrians and the
Mongols.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:05:40 -0700 (PDT)

> LSD: The upper estimate (7240) is still far lower
> than
> the number of Iraqis found in mass graves, murdered
> by
> the Bathist regime that the left tried so hard to
> keep
> in power.

Actually it was the American government, not "the
Left" that funded, trained, armed and kept the
Bathists in power, beginning in the 1980's , when the
U.S. government saw Iraq as a good ally against the
"evil" Iran. (Ironically, in this Federal shell game,
later Iran became the good guys and the Iraqis
"evil", and so it goes...)In the Reagan administration
the U.S. government funded, financed Hussein, and
evidence shows that , without his American backing he
never would have been in power. Go figure that the
Reagan Administration is "the Left". Actually they
were always the administration put in power by the
Christian Right, not "the Left".

Really, the left generally includes people who support
human rights and social reform, as well as universal
health care and things akin, and hardly "kept Hussein
in power". Sounds like a very "John Birch Society" phrase.

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:45:16 -0000

Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi, Tite
Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!

In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start of
the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
friendship!
Valete,
Urania Calidia Antonina

n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> --- me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu: > -----Original
> Message-----
> [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
>
>
> According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> Hibernia:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
>
> Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> Titus Octavius Nevinus
> Titus Maxentius Verus
> Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
>
>
> Vale
> Marcus Arminius
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
_
> Yahoo! Mail
> Mais espaço, mais segurança e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
antivírus, proteçăo contra spam.
> http://br.mail.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 05:38:50 -0000

Salve Consul C. Fabi Quintiliane,
Salve Sp. Postumi Tuberte,
Salvete Cives,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Postumius Tubertus"
<postumius@g...> wrote:
> If this is the case, and we do need to be prepared for the
>citizens' distaste for it, why not simply start with a trial run
>_before_ we put it to the voters for a final vote? I see no reason
>to revert to old, ahistorical ways if we can try a new, historical
>way before it is fully put to a vote for ratification or failure. Do
>you agree?

Just to be clear, there is little historical about this system, at
least no more so than the current or previous systems. It has one
possible historical aspect, allowing multiple votes, but the way
votes are counted and the way the centuries vote is not at all
historical. Modern efficiency is the key word here, emulating the
ancients is not it seems. A proposal for a system modeled as closely
as possible on the ancient model was presented to Consul
Quintilianus, I believe. Only multiple voting was taken from that as
being useful.

Since unfortunnately efficiency and not historicity is paramount here
it seems, I am open to running concurrent simulations of this system
and the older system that Drusus refers to and see which works better
and which the voters prefer. We have time before the elections, we
might as well put it to good use rather than experiment through the
ballot box yet again. Furthermore, an election of historical
personages as Drusus proposed would be FUN and we don't seem to have
enough of that around here.

Valete,

Decius Iunius Palladius


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 02:07:50 -0400

Salve Senator Druse,

All you said being the case, I invite you, being that you disagree with the proposal and the facts being presented, to organize the election you call for. In all honesty, Senator, I think the facts speak for themselves. Please, Senator, review them, and see if you too do not agree with them. To them, I have nothing to add.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] More on the Clades Variana and Germanicus' Reprisal Campaign
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:35:45 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Following on Q. Fabius' remarks on the defeat of Varus and the
reprisal campaign of Germanicus, here's a link to "Kalkriese: Die
Örtlichkeit der Varusschlacht [Kalkriese: The Location of the Varus
Battle]":

http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de/projekt/start.html

This site, a student project of the University of Osnabrück under the
direction of Dr. Karsten Bunz and Dr. Wolfgang Spickermann, includes
maps, essays, and photographs related to Roman policy in trans-Rhine
Germania, the Roman army, Roman militaria, e-texts of primary literary
sources on the Clades Variana, excavations in the area and their
artifacts, the historigraphy of the Clades Variana, and an extensive
bibliography on Kalkriese and the Clades Variana. The degree of
detailed information provided is extrarodinary. The site is in
German, but can be viewed via Altavista's Babelfish machine
translation facility (with the usual caveats about machine
translation) at http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn.

There is also an essay in English by Christian Ziehe (Univ. of
Osnabrück), "Roman Artifact Recovery From The Battlefield At
Kalkriese," at:

http://www.ancient-times.com/articles/varus/excavation/excavation1.html

which includes some detailed photographs of the artifacts (there is
some overlap between this and the Univ. of Osnabrück site).

For an interesting counterview which holds Kalkriese to be the site
of a battle in Germanicus' reprisal campaign rather than that of
Varus' defeat on numismatic grounds (I don't find it persuasive, since
there is more than just numismatic evidence associating Kalkriese with
Varus -- Roman allusions to the chalk pits into which the bodies of
Varus' soldiers and their animals were disposed, for example, but the
numismatic photography is splendid) take a look at "The Varus Debate":

http://www.romancoins.info/CMK-Varus-Debate.html

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 01:20:58 +0200

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

<< I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I treasure the individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on the web and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that talks about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE AMERICANS TIRADE. >>

MOS: I think because the majority of NR members *are* Americans and the US is having quite controversial policies, which are being criticised throughout the world. I wouldn't say that it's a bash-the-Americans-tirade, though. On the other hand in the wake of Sept 11 nearly all active American members freely posted here on the tragedy on their own initiative. It's not always the others who start ranting about the US.

<< No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the cause of the human race as the United States has. >>

MOS: Excuse me?

<< In the recent war in Iraq the American military went out of its way to keep civilian deaths to a minimum. >>

MOS: That's true. But you have to admit that this was partially because the media were all over it.

<< I do love that most liberals, democrats and neo or Paleolithic socialists ( oh same thing) STILL underestimate George W. Bush. (They are going to underestimate him into a second term and a 49-50 state landslide) >>

MOS: We'll see. Liberals, democrats and socialists are not the same, by the way. My country is governed by liberals and socialists and I can assure you we're far from the paleolithic age here. You're free to have your prejudices about politics but please don't make this a propaganda ad for your nation and its leadership.

<< But then most of the world still underestimates and undervalues the USA, which just goes to prove the old adage no good deed ever goes unpunished. >>

MOS: The US are hardly being underestimated.

<< Can you really want a world where the leading power is Communist China, the former Soviet Union , a neo-Fascist Russia , Imperial France, Imperial or Nazi Germany , Pol Pot's Cambodia or Idi Amin's Uganda? to say nothing of any number of enlightened Islamic states. >>

MOS: It's better to lose a limb than to die altogether, yes. But that doesn't mean losing a limb is a good thing.

Optime vale,
Marcus Octavius Solaris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:35:05 +0200

Salve Titus Pius,
Salvete citizens,

A second quick response:
You obviously didn't like my post, but at least I succeeded in getting the
discussion going about the electoral reform proposal!

I haven't had time to read the emails posted because we are having
(unusually) excellent weather here in Gallia, but I will read them tomorrow.
Thanks to everyone for their input, especially our Rogator Q Cassius Calvus.

Valete,
Diana Moravia
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: from@telenet-ops.be [mailto:from@telenet-ops.be]Namens Kristoffer
From
Verzonden: vrijdag 20 juni 2003 19:11
Aan: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
Centuriatorum

Salve, Diana Moravia Aventina.

I cut and sliced a lot in the texts below, for the sake of brevity, but
I hope they will still contain their original meaning.

Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Honestly, I think that the email was
> so long that no one read it. At best
> only a handful of us are *really*
> interested in a new electoral
> proposal, but a new electoral proposal
> mixed in between 10 pages in size 10
> font is more of an endurance test.

I think you are mistaken in how many are interested in how voting will
proceed, and I know you are mistaken regarding the extent of the text.
As Caeso answered your earlier complaint on the length, it's about 4
pages in size 12. That shouldn't be too troublesome a digest for any
interested citizen reasonably familiar with the roman voting system.

Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> The multiple run-offs are less an
> electoral procedure problem and more
> an inactive citizen problem. I think
> that in the main election around 300
> [of 1927] citizens voted. Such a low
> voter turnout with 1500 or so inactive
> citizens make it difficult for any
> candidate to get a majority. This was
> the problem with the Tribune run-offs.
> I think the Census will nearly
> eliminate the run-off problem.

The thing is, all inactive citizens are already in either an urban tribe
or one century (193?) since they haven't paid their taxes. Since they're
sharing that space with any number of non-paying yet active citizens,
the odds for those tribes/centuries NOT casting a vote is minimal, to
say the least. As so, I do not believe inactive citizens, future socii,
have caused a problem with neither the tribune run-offs nor any other
votes/elections since we first implemented taxes.

Our problem is another, and requires a different solution, such as the
one proposed by Caeso for our inspection. It would be more constructive
to comment on it's content rather than it's existance, as that is what
he's asking for at this point.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:38:31 +0200

Salvete,

Posted under my other name. Woops. Sorry.

Solaris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 03:51:29 -0700 (PDT)

--- "Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
wrote:
> Salve Senator Druse,
>
> All you said being the case, I invite you, being
> that you disagree with the proposal and the facts
> being presented, to organize the election you call
> for. In all honesty, Senator, I think the facts
> speak for themselves. Please, Senator, review them,
> and see if you too do not agree with them. To them,
> I have nothing to add.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sp. Postumius Tubertus
>

The Facts?

The First fact is no one knows if there will be
harmful side effects to this legislation, just like no
one knew the 2754 reforms would have harmful side
effects.

The Second fact is some of the supporters of this
legaslation are doing thier damndest to avoid mock
elections that could expose those weaknesses.

The Third fact is no one has addressed my concern that
this system has a built in bias towards medicore
canidates.

The Fourth fact is some of the suporters of this
legislation are talking out of both sides of thier
mouths, refering to it as both 21st Century modern and
Historic, depending on the views of the person they
are addressing. That is always a danger sign.

The Fifth fact is only a Consul or a Praetor in the
absence of the Consuls, can summon the Centuries to
vote, so I can only sugest a mock election and a slate
of canidates (Which I have allready done).

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 04:10:27 -0700 (PDT)

ROFLMAO,
A Quote,
PACIFISM The majority of pacifists either belong to
obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians
who object to the taking of life and prefer not to
follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is
a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though
unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western
democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist
propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side
is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at
the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one
finds that they do not by any means express impartial
disapproval but are directed almost entirely against
Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as
a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence
used in defense of western countries. The Russians,
unlike the British, are not blamed for defending
themselves by warlike means, and indeed all pacifist
propaganda of this type avoids mention of Russia or
China. It is not claimed, again, that the Indians
should abjure violence in their struggle against the
British. Pacifist literature abounds with equivocal
remarks which, if they mean anything, appear to mean
that statesmen of the type of Hitler are preferable to
those of the type of Churchill, and that violence is
perhaps excusable if it is violent enough. After the
fall of France, the French pacifists, faced by a real
choice which their English colleagues have not had to
make, mostly went over to the Nazis, and in England
there appears to have been some small overlap of
membership between the Peace Pledge Union and the
Blackshirts. Pacifist writers have written in praise
of Carlyle, one of the intellectual fathers of
Fascism. All in all it is difficult not to feel that
pacifism, as it appears among a section of the
intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration
for power and successful cruelty. The mistake was made
of pinning this emotion to Hitler, but it could easily
be retransfered.

George Orwell
"Hotes on Nationalism"
May 1945

The far left hated the US and the UK in 1945, and that
hatred continues 58 years later. As Orwell observed
the lunatic fringe is allways ready to embrace any
despot if he opposes the primary objects of thier
hatred, the United States.

Also the hate mongers of the lunatic fringe seem to be
incapable of refraining from spewing thier vile
poisons, something that is consistant with my thesis
that your ilk are driven by a hate filled obcession.

There are plenty of sites geared towards modern
politics, go there when the urge to spout your moronic
views becomes overpowering.

--- Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > LSD: The upper estimate (7240) is still far lower
> > than
> > the number of Iraqis found in mass graves,
> murdered
> > by
> > the Bathist regime that the left tried so hard to
> > keep
> > in power.
>
> Actually it was the American government, not "the
> Left" that funded, trained, armed and kept the
> Bathists in power, beginning in the 1980's , when
> the
> U.S. government saw Iraq as a good ally against the
> "evil" Iran. (Ironically, in this Federal shell
> game,
> later Iran became the good guys and the Iraqis
> "evil", and so it goes...)In the Reagan
> administration
> the U.S. government funded, financed Hussein, and
> evidence shows that , without his American backing
> he
> never would have been in power. Go figure that the
> Reagan Administration is "the Left". Actually they
> were always the administration put in power by the
> Christian Right, not "the Left".
>
> Really, the left generally includes people who
> support
> human rights and social reform, as well as universal
> health care and things akin, and hardly "kept
> Hussein
> in power". Sounds like a very "John Birch Society"
> phrase.
>
> =====
> "Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the
> burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a
> light shield where the mighty women put forth their
> powers and sent their yelling spears."
>
>
> http://www.galacticapublishing.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 13:48:59 +0200

Salve Luci Sicini,

Once more I find myself in disagreement with you.

Your quoting of Orwell was no response to the remarks made in the posting you were replying to (even not the fact that Orwell was right cannot change that). Face the facts instead of treating us with another diatribe testifying of your incessant hatred towards the left wing of the political spectrum. I am fairly left-wing and I don't hate people who are right-wing, but there appears to be a growing tendency in international politics to portray left-wing people as stupid, naieve, evil, godless, dangerous or misled. Only the feeble minded use such rhetorics, in lack of better arguments.

One response here.

<< Also the hate mongers of the lunatic fringe seem to be
incapable of refraining from spewing thier vile
poisons, something that is consistant with my thesis
that your ilk are driven by a hate filled obcession. >>

LOL! All hate mongers I know in the West are fascist, neo-fascist, racist or extreme rightist fellows (Front National, FPÖ, Vlaams Blok, Ku Klux Klan...). Now *these* people are driven by hate-filled obsessions and frustrations. Well of course if you look hard enough you will find people on the left-wing lunatic fringe, but they are by far outnumbered by their equally mad colleagues on the right wing.

Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 07:55:44 -0400

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus writes, in part:

> I do love that most liberals, democrats and neo or Paleolithic socialists (
> oh same thing) STILL underestimate George W. Bush. (They are going to
> underestimate him into a second term and a 49-50 state landslide)

Don't count your chickens before they hatch, my friend. Pride goeth
before a fall, and all that. (And just personally, Howard Dean is
looking real good to me right now.)

On the more general subject of USA-bashing, I agree with you that it gets
wearisome. But we are an international community here, and right now
much of the world is feeling very wary of the US. American power
is great, and when it is used in ways that appear clumsy people are
frightened, as they would be by any clumsy powerful giant.

Remember that I speak from the perspective of 22 years in the
USMC. I love my country and my corps, but I'm under no illusions
about past errors.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 05:16:19 -0700 (PDT)

--- "M. Octavius Solaris"
<scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> Once more I find myself in disagreement with you.
>
> Your quoting of Orwell was no response to the
> remarks made in the posting you were replying to
> (even not the fact that Orwell was right cannot
> change that). Face the facts instead of treating us
> with another diatribe testifying of your incessant
> hatred towards the left wing of the political
> spectrum. I am fairly left-wing and I don't hate
> people who are right-wing, but there appears to be a
> growing tendency in international politics to
> portray left-wing people as stupid, naieve, evil,
> godless, dangerous or misled. Only the feeble minded
> use such rhetorics, in lack of better arguments.
>
LOL,
Take note of the complaint about portraying President
Bush as stupid. This also held true for President
Reagan, and pretty much any other Conservative
politican.

For years the far left has attempted to portray
themselves as "enlightened intelectiuals" and
attempted to downgrade any who disagreed with them as
being stupid red necks. If the tables are turned and
the gulibility of the leftists is pointed out they
react like 6 year old whinning because thier tatics
have been used against them.

Orwells points are consistant because the gulible
nitwit introduced a link to one of the lunatic fringes
hate filled anti American sites that tracks recent
Iraqi deaths while ignoring the far larger numbers
murdered by the regime they worked so hard to keep in
power.

> One response here.
>
> << Also the hate mongers of the lunatic fringe seem
> to be
> incapable of refraining from spewing thier vile
> poisons, something that is consistant with my thesis
> that your ilk are driven by a hate filled obcession.
> >>
>
> LOL! All hate mongers I know in the West are
> fascist, neo-fascist, racist or extreme rightist
> fellows (Front National, FPÖ, Vlaams Blok, Ku Klux
> Klan...). Now *these* people are driven by
> hate-filled obsessions and frustrations. Well of
> course if you look hard enough you will find people
> on the left-wing lunatic fringe, but they are by far
> outnumbered by their equally mad colleagues on the
> right wing.
>

The hate filled pinheads of the far right are
denounced by the majority of conservatives. The same
can't be said about the more mainstream left
denouncing it's bigots. They not only fail to denounce
them, they rise to defend them when others denounce
them.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:44:37 -0400

"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> writes:

[in part]

> The Facts?
>
> The First fact is no one knows if there will be
> harmful side effects to this legislation, just like no
> one knew the 2754 reforms would have harmful side
> effects.

There are many things which are, inherently, unknowable.
We ought not to bind ourselves to known imperfect methods
out of fear of that unknown. We are, as were our Roman
forbearers in antiquity, continuously striving toward
the fairest possible way of insuring the proper ballance
in these things.

I will say that we have already modeled the results of
elections using the proposed method, and it works very well
in terms of providing results which match the will of the
voting population. Furthermore, there is a wealth of
literature available which addresses the mathematics and
the philosophy of voting, and that literature was studied
extensively in the process of crafting this proposed
legislation.

> The Second fact is some of the supporters of this
> legaslation are doing thier damndest to avoid mock
> elections that could expose those weaknesses.

They (we?) are? I must have missed that. I'll admit a
concern about the time and effort required to conduct a
full-blown election by the actual voting population of
Nova Roma, and a doubt that many of our voters will take
it very seriously or remember to vote. But I have not
seen anyone of us who support this initiative opposing
the basic idea of testing it to the satisfaction of the
general populace before implementation.

> The Third fact is no one has addressed my concern that
> this system has a built in bias towards medicore
> canidates.

OK, I'll address that right now.

This claim is as old as democracy itself. That somehow, an
election (no matter how it is conducted) favors mediocrity
because it requires a majority consensus. The truth is that
elections favor *moderation* over *extremism*. Those people
who favor extremist positions will often paint moderation as
mediocrity in their attempts to discredit the fruits of
democratic elections.

Now, on the specific quesion of approval voting, the argument
again is raised that by allowing voters to approve of multiple
candidates we somehow favor mediocrity. This claim presupposes
that the electorate would, in general, approve of a mediocre
candidate. It further presupposes that mediocre persons would
present themselves for elective office in the first place.

While there is absolutely no question that a putative mediocre
candidate *could* be elected by this method, the method in
question gives no more advantage to mediocrity than any other
democratic voting method would. It remains for the candidates
to appeal to as broad a portion of the electorate as possible.

What I think we can be sure of is that if we adopt this means of
electing our magistrates, the most extreme of our politically
active citizens will be less likely to win an election. Personally,
I don't think that's a bad thing. I favor the Via Media as the
surest route forward. While I value the opinions of the more
extreme voices, I'd just as soon they not be able to attain
majesterial office.

If you wish to call that mediocrity, then call it what you wish.
I call it well tempered republicanism, where the consensus of the
greatest number of citizens rules.

> The Fourth fact is some of the suporters of this
> legislation are talking out of both sides of thier
> mouths, refering to it as both 21st Century modern and
> Historic, depending on the views of the person they
> are addressing. That is always a danger sign.

Let me be quite clear: It is both. Our own Quintus Fabius
Maximus confirmed the historicity of the approval voting method
to Cordus during our investigation into the history of Roman
elections. Approval voting is also a method that has been
rediscovered in recent decades. Again, there is a wealth of
literature available to anyone who wishes to hunt around online.

> The Fifth fact is only a Consul or a Praetor in the
> absence of the Consuls, can summon the Centuries to
> vote, so I can only sugest a mock election and a slate
> of canidates (Which I have allready done).

For which I thank you. You made a good suggestion. Would
you be willing to take on the task of organizing the logistics
of the kind of election you had in mind with the cavaet that
once all was in readiness the consul would summon the Centuries?

I will admit to some personal reservations concerning the ability
of a mock election to expose a true weakness. I think we're better
served by mathematically modeling a number of elections, where we
examine the various limiting conditions. But I do see that a mock
election has significant value in terms of familiarizing the
electorate with the new method and with validating it in their
minds. So if you wish to undertake the logistical effort of
organization, I'll see what I can do to get the Centuries
called for you.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 06:29:43 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net> wrote:
SNIP
> What I think we can be sure of is that if we adopt
> this means of
> electing our magistrates, the most extreme of our
> politically
> active citizens will be less likely to win an
> election. Personally,
> I don't think that's a bad thing. I favor the Via
> Media as the
> surest route forward. While I value the opinions of
> the more
> extreme voices, I'd just as soon they not be able to
> attain
> majesterial office.
>

Gnaeus Equitius,
That was very enlighting.

So one of the intents of this "fair" method of
counting votes is to decrease the chances that a
canidate whom the authers disapprove of will be
elected, even though that canidate may have attained
office under a traditional Roman method of counting
the ballots.

I Guess it was just a matter of time untill
Gerrymandering entered our political landscape, though
I am most disapointed that it has arrivived.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 10:32:42 -0400

Salve Marinus

Who writes (And just personally, Howard Dean is looking real good to me right now.)

Please let him be the democrat nominee!! just the best West Wing Bartlett type of nominee I would love, did I say 49-50 heck with dean we would probable carry DC too.

Vale

Tiberius
----- Original Message -----
From: Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus writes, in part:

> I do love that most liberals, democrats and neo or Paleolithic socialists (
> oh same thing) STILL underestimate George W. Bush. (They are going to
> underestimate him into a second term and a 49-50 state landslide)

Don't count your chickens before they hatch, my friend. Pride goeth
before a fall, and all that. (And just personally, Howard Dean is
looking real good to me right now.)

On the more general subject of USA-bashing, I agree with you that it gets
wearisome. But we are an international community here, and right now
much of the world is feeling very wary of the US. American power
is great, and when it is used in ways that appear clumsy people are
frightened, as they would be by any clumsy powerful giant.

Remember that I speak from the perspective of 22 years in the
USMC. I love my country and my corps, but I'm under no illusions
about past errors.

-- Marinus

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 10:37:25 -0400

Salve Marcus Octavius Solaris said in part

"You're free to have your prejudices about politics but please don't make this a propaganda ad for your nation and its leadership."

I was simply responding to a post by someone else made.

Vale

Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: Gn. Dionysius Draco Invictus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

<< I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I treasure the individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on the web and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that talks about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE AMERICANS TIRADE. >>

MOS: I think because the majority of NR members *are* Americans and the US is having quite controversial policies, which are being criticised throughout the world. I wouldn't say that it's a bash-the-Americans-tirade, though. On the other hand in the wake of Sept 11 nearly all active American members freely posted here on the tragedy on their own initiative. It's not always the others who start ranting about the US.

<< No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the cause of the human race as the United States has. >>

MOS: Excuse me?

<< In the recent war in Iraq the American military went out of its way to keep civilian deaths to a minimum. >>

MOS: That's true. But you have to admit that this was partially because the media were all over it.

<< I do love that most liberals, democrats and neo or Paleolithic socialists ( oh same thing) STILL underestimate George W. Bush. (They are going to underestimate him into a second term and a 49-50 state landslide) >>

MOS: We'll see. Liberals, democrats and socialists are not the same, by the way. My country is governed by liberals and socialists and I can assure you we're far from the paleolithic age here. You're free to have your prejudices about politics but please don't make this a propaganda ad for your nation and its leadership.

<< But then most of the world still underestimates and undervalues the USA, which just goes to prove the old adage no good deed ever goes unpunished. >>

MOS: The US are hardly being underestimated.

<< Can you really want a world where the leading power is Communist China, the former Soviet Union , a neo-Fascist Russia , Imperial France, Imperial or Nazi Germany , Pol Pot's Cambodia or Idi Amin's Uganda? to say nothing of any number of enlightened Islamic states. >>

MOS: It's better to lose a limb than to die altogether, yes. But that doesn't mean losing a limb is a good thing.

Optime vale,
Marcus Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] America on NRML
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 14:37:59 -0000

Salvete omnes,

Just a few of my own thoughts:

1) It is great to study America as an analogy to Empires of the past
but all of us should be perhaps sensitive and diplomatic when
bringing up contraversial issues. The US has had its faults and
errors but one could sure have a field day with Canada or European
bashing if we went over their histories. Other than the aboriginals,
most of us are just transplanted Europeans; Gosh you saw that in our
blood when my good friend and co-dictator Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
talked of German and Irish sensitivities the other day. You'd think
we just got off the boat or plane last month.

2) At the same time as writing this report, I'm listening to CNN on
the sat TV and it seems close to 50% of Americans disagree with their
government on various foreign issues. As stated in a few previous
postings today, many of the critics of the US here and on the Back
Alley list are Americans themselves. Still non Americans, out of
harmony for NR should show some diplomacy and sensitivity courtesy
when discussing issues and not use "appeal to emotion" words like
baby killers, warmongers etc. The Americans may well use this strong
language with one another but if we foreigners use it... well, its
like when I visited the states I often heard African Americans use
the "n" word to one another and laugh their heads off; had I or
another white person used that same word to them.....?

3) In my opinion my country and Europe owe a great deal of gratitude
to the US. This should be self evident unless we are blind or have no
memory at all. The greatest left of lefts Joseph Stalin admited the
war would have been lost without the American industrial might and
great organization. In a way, for an experiment, I would like to see
the Americans pull their legions out of every country in the world
just like Rome did in Britain early in the 5th century and mind their
own business. No economic aid or anything. Don't, however pull out
some American business; too catastrophic! For example I saw a Farc
guerilla commander from Colombia threatening a Vietnam there for
America if drug enforcements escalate; I saw a Hamas guerilla
threatening the death of America routine in a similar interview. What
did they both have in common? A can of coca cola at heir tables!

On a lighter note:

I did not realize how close Canada became to being part of the US 150
years ago. In the 1850's there were bad territorial problems between
Canada (still a British colony but autonomous) and the US. The
Americans threatened forceable annexation and the Brits were too tied
up with skirmishes overseas to help much militarily. They got a
brilliant Cicero-like diplomat and orator, Lord Elgin who was
governor of Hong Kong. Off he went to Washington to solve the crisis.
He flew like a whirlwind on a sea of champagne through Washington
wining and dining as well as giving great wild parties all for the
Southern congressmen. He told them: Look, if you annex Canada you'll
have to make at least several more states and territories, right?
Well what is the population of Canada? You'll have to take the hawk-
nosed Scots, Papist French, a whole lot more Indians and Meti
(mixed). They all, of course are very anti-slavery and won't that tip
the balance against you in government?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh!!!
The annexation idea was quickly quashed!

Well, has anybody ever read about this kind of situation in the Roman
world. Perhaps Herod the Great played the same sort of game to keep
his Kingdom more autonomous or semi - independent from Rome. Please
let me know.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 10:41:01 -0400

"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> writes:

> So one of the intents of this "fair" method of
> counting votes is to decrease the chances that a
> canidate whom the authers disapprove of will be
> elected, even though that canidate may have attained
> office under a traditional Roman method of counting
> the ballots.

You disappoint me Drusus, I didn't say any such thing.
For you to suggest that I did is an indication of
a side of you that I haven't seen before. I would never
have suspected you of intellectual dishonesty, but that
seems to be exactly what you're engaging in now.

However, out of the tremendous respect I bear you as a
man of good will, I'm willing to allow that you are
worked up about this, and that on sober reflection you'll
recognize that you've attributed to me something I didn't
say.

The fact is that neither you nor I nor anyone can definitely
say that "a traditional Roman method of counting ballots"
is either superior or inferior to any system that Nova Roma
ever has used or ever will use. The ballot counting process
(as distinct from the ballot casting process) of antiquity
involved rogators on the scene, counting the ballots of the
tribes or centuries as they completed voting and announcing
the results on the scene. Here in Nova Roma we do not vote
in order by centuries or tribes. We never have. So no matter
whether we vote for one candidate or several candidates,
whether we require a majority, a supermajority, or a plurality,
our elections will not reflect the realtime developmental
dynamics which occured with the vote counting processes
of Roma Antiqua.

> I Guess it was just a matter of time untill
> Gerrymandering entered our political landscape, though
> I am most disapointed that it has arrivived.

Spare me your rhetoric sir. Gerrymandering is the deliberate
design of political districts in order to assure single party
dominance. For a current example you can look at the special
session of the Texas Legislature being called for the specific
purpose of redistricting.

We propose nothing at all like that. We propose a system which
will assure that political power is placed into the hands of those
whom the greatest number of the electorate approve. Nothing more
than that, and nothing less.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 10:52:09 -0400

Salve Tiberius!

> Salve Marinus
>
> Who writes (And just personally, Howard Dean is looking real good to me
> right now.)
>
> Please let him be the democrat nominee!!

>From your fingers to the gods' ears (or screens, assuming the gods
have become technologically advanced.)

> just the best West Wing Bartlett type of nominee I would love,

He's less like Bartlett than some would wish. What other candidate
can you show me who has an A rating from the NRA? Or who is clearly
in favor of a federal death penalty for the most serious offenses?
Does that sound like Jed Bartlett to you?

(Let's take this off-list, as it really has nothing to do with NR)

> did I say 49-50 heck with dean we would probable carry DC too.

If he wins the nomination, we'll have to work out a suitable wager.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:27:26 +0200

Salve Luci Sicini,

> LOL,
> Take note of the complaint about portraying President
> Bush as stupid. This also held true for President
> Reagan, and pretty much any other Conservative
> politican.

Reagan reportedly said, after a visit to South America: "Would you
believe... it's all different countries there!". Bush is dyslectic, adressed
the Greeks as Grecians and called Spanish pm Aznar Anzar. There are numerous
sites with lots and lots of other so-called bushisms. The fact that he
graduated from college doesn't make him smarter. College cultivates
anything, including lack of intelligence (experience speaking here, and lots
of anecdotes). There surely have been intelligent Republican presidents,
mind you, but not Bush nor Reagan.

> For years the far left has attempted to portray
> themselves as "enlightened intelectiuals" and
> attempted to downgrade any who disagreed with them as
> being stupid red necks. If the tables are turned and
> the gulibility of the leftists is pointed out they
> react like 6 year old whinning because thier tatics
> have been used against them.

Fair is fair. This is true.

> Orwells points are consistant because the gulible
> nitwit introduced a link to one of the lunatic fringes
> hate filled anti American sites that tracks recent
> Iraqi deaths while ignoring the far larger numbers
> murdered by the regime they worked so hard to keep in
> power.

Yes. But don't forget that the UN embargo against Iraq only hurt its
citizens. It didn't affect Saddam. Well, now it matters little, Saddam is
gone!

> The hate filled pinheads of the far right are
> denounced by the majority of conservatives. The same
> can't be said about the more mainstream left
> denouncing it's bigots. They not only fail to denounce
> them, they rise to defend them when others denounce
> them.

I can't see myself defending them. I don't sympathise with our local
communist party, for instance (which got a staggering 0,2% of our votes in
last election). I do rise to defend the left wing when once again the
leftists are made out to be moonies. And that's that :).

Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 16:20:21 -0000

Salvete,

> We propose nothing at all like that. We propose a system which
> will assure that political power is placed into the hands of those
> whom the greatest number of the electorate approve. Nothing more
> than that, and nothing less.

A scenario.

100 electors - 51 support red and 49 support blue, thats a 51% - 49%
electoral split. Elections are held for 5 vacant positions of the same
office. Five red candidates and five blue candidates run for these 5 vacant
offices. Under present and previous systems we could reasonably expect about
3 red candidates and 2 blue candidates to be elected. Reds, who have a small
majority of the votes have a majority of the magistrates but a substantial
minority of the blues are still represented.

Under the proposed new system all 51 red supporters can approve all their
candidates and all 49 blue voters can approve all theirs. However, with all
five red candidates recieving 51 votes each, and all blue candidates
receiving only 49, all the blue candidates are eliminated and the reds make
a clean sweep, holding all 5 offices with only 51% of the vote.

This new system has a very real danger of removing any representation from
our government those whos ideals do not conform with the ruling majority. It
may very well result in the removal of the checks and balances inherent
within the roman republican ideal. Any testing or mock elections must
examine and ensure that this danger does not come to pass.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 07:23:50 -0700 (PDT)

> We have improved perhaps in our attitude to slaves,
> though today of course everybody is a kind of slave.
> War becomes more bloody as it becomes more distanced
> of course. What is often so striking is that men are
> far less often cowards for fear of death than for
> horror of *killing*. Ancient war meant some poor
> bugger on the end of your spear where you could feel
> him wriggling. Modern is increasingly a video game.

Very well said...! Computer nerds who remotely man
missiles ,(like kids playing with remote control
tanks), enabling them to kill from a distance, so
that they can kill indiscriminately without getting
"too close" to their victims, as aptly elaborated by
Miguel De Cervantes in "Don Quixote":

"Happy the blest ages that knew not the dread fury of
those devilish engines....[which] made it easy for a
base and cowardly arm to take the life of a gallant
gentleman."

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 06:59:06 -0700 (PDT)

> Can you really want a world where the leading power
> is Communist China, the former Soviet Union , a
> neo-Fascist Russia , Imperial France, Imperial or
> Nazi Germany , Pol Pot's Cambodia or Idi Amin's
> Uganda? to say nothing of any number of enlightened
> Islamic states.

Interesting that you ignore the simple fact that
Hussein was funded, armed, trained and put in power by
the U.S. government, like Pol Pot and the Kmer Rouge,
like the Taliban, etc. Common sense says "this guy is
not anti-american but has a mind of his own and judges
individuals and governments on their actions" and, I
was only simply stating facts, while others let their
emotions get the best of them. I am an American and
recognize the beauty of most of our noble traditions
here, but because I am an American and because I am
not a charlatan going out my way to prop up a corrupt
regime, I use my constitutional rights to show the
most American aspect of our country: Dissent.

There weren't many people that would have liked
weasels like Bush or his supporters when our country
was founded, (nor any one who would have accepted the
spurious "patriot act") and there are still many
Americans , (many who are nether right or left, but
many of both of those sides of the spectrum also)
today who still believe in soverignity , the bill of
rights, and freedom. Invading foreign nations while
murdering the populace in order to seize their oil
fields is hardly noble, American , or "liberating", no
matter what kind of crazy spin you want to put on it.

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 07:31:52 -0700 (PDT)

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ROFLMAO,
> A Quote,
> PACIFISM The majority of pacifists either belong to
> obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians
> who object to the taking of life and prefer not to
> follow their thoughts beyond that point.

Nice quote is that I am not a pacifist and I find
pacifism to be somewhat pathetic, and any one who even
glances at our website (linked below) can hardly find
much "pacifism" promoted or anything akin. But
stereotypes or easy and convenient , are they not? How
else would the ignorant reign?

PS: Still waiting to hear a *legitimate* and honest
response to me pointing out the sad fact that all the
"evil doers" aforementioned were funded, armed and
even, trained by the U.S. government. (The Taliban,
Saddam Hussein, etc etc etc..Even Iran, as the "Iran
contragate" trials showed, and here I will not even
get into good old Henry Kissinger)

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:22:51 -0400

On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 03:40:42PM -0000, Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius wrote:
> Salve,
> Caius
> Or should I say Nasdrovia Tobarish.

<grin> Not unless we're drinking together. "Na zdorovye!" is a
toast - "To health!" - which often gets an addendum of "...which we're
destroying by drinking to it!"

> Couldn't help but laugh at the thought of a Sven (thought of St. Olaf
> stories running through my head) singing the Russian National
> Anthem.

Whoops. That would be the _Soviet_ anthem; as far as I'm aware, there
was no such thing as the Russian National anthem at that time, although
I'm sure there is now.

> Great movie by the way even with Sean "the man" Connery
> playing a Russian with his accent - he is always credible.

True. He certainly took the trouble to _try_ making his Russian sound
reasonably decent (not that he succeeded, but still.) Sven just tried to
memorize the transliteration and faked it (this was the funniest part)
when he forgot.

> Couldn't say which person was the FC myself and I'm sure that was a
> friendly poke for fun about being unbelievable but the COOK as the
> KGB agent was unbelievable, lol.

I took it for what it was, although "friendly pokes" to someone with
whom you've never been friendly imply lots of assumptions. Yeah, the
cook looked nothing like a Russian - although he did look properly
sneaky and spy-like. :)

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Inventas vitam iuvat excoluisse per artes.
Let us improve life through science and art.
-- Inscription on the Nobel Prize winner medals. After Vergil, "Aenis."


Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel=20Dugdale?= <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:10:35 +0100 (BST)

Senator L. Sinicius Drusus first wrote:
> LSD: That assumption is the first problem with a
> simulation. "Liking" a canidate isn't the only
> reason
> someone might vote for them.

Ah, it seems I phrased myself badly. The important
factor is whether or not a person chooses to vote for
any given candidate, regardless of reasons (including
like and dislike, tactical voting, etc). I believe
that once you take account of this, my previous
arguments stand.

And later:
> These types of reactions create a built in bias
> favoring the medicore canidate who is few people's
> first choice, but who is considered unobjectable
> enough to rank as a lot of people's third choice.

Mediocre, no - not necessarily. Moderate, perhaps,
but then the question is whether this is a terrible
thing. Someone who everyone likes a bit could well
make the general population more content than someone
who half of them hate vehemently.

Also, as Marinus has quite correctly pointed out (but
it is important enough to bear repeating) this is
inherent in any system.

It's also just a variation of something one often
encounters throughout life, called compromise.

And in a later email:
> So one of the intents of this "fair" method of
> counting votes is to decrease the chances that a
> canidate whom the authers disapprove of will be
> elected, even though that canidate may have attained
> office under a traditional Roman method of counting
> the ballots.

This is simply untrue. The intent of this - as every
other - fair method of voting is to ensure that the
candidates with the support of the electorate are
those who are elected.

Please, don't muddy our discussion of whether this
particular method works with talk of whether it is
well intended.

As ever,

Gaia Fabia Livia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 10:15:11 -0700 (PDT)

--- Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > ROFLMAO,
> > A Quote,
> > PACIFISM The majority of pacifists either belong
> to
> > obscure religious sects or are simply
> humanitarians
> > who object to the taking of life and prefer not to
> > follow their thoughts beyond that point.
>
> Nice quote is that I am not a pacifist and I find
> pacifism to be somewhat pathetic, and any one who
> even
> glances at our website (linked below) can hardly
> find
> much "pacifism" promoted or anything akin. But
> stereotypes or easy and convenient , are they not?
> How
> else would the ignorant reign?
>
> PS: Still waiting to hear a *legitimate* and honest
> response to me pointing out the sad fact that all
> the
> "evil doers" aforementioned were funded, armed and
> even, trained by the U.S. government. (The Taliban,
> Saddam Hussein, etc etc etc..Even Iran, as the "Iran
> contragate" trials showed, and here I will not even
> get into good old Henry Kissinger)
>
The Fringe's gulibility is only exceeded by it's
ability to ignore reality.

The Taliandits? They didn't exist until AFTER the
Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan and the US ceased
funding anyone there. Of course it's easier to
mindlessly bleat the "funded the taliban" lie than to
check out the facts, certainly easier when the lie
reinforces prejudices.

The Butcher of Baghdad? Over half of his military
equipment came from Russia/USSR. His second biggest
suplier was China. Number Three was France. Next were
assorted former members of the Warsaw pact. The US
failed to make the "top ten" with it's paltry 1%. Note
that his three biggest suppliers were also his
defenders at the UN. Yes we provided some assistance
to the Ba'athst regime during the war. We also
provided his foe Iran with aid. Do you think "arms for
hostages" was an isolated event? do you think a nation
who's military was largely equiped with US hardware
from the days of the Shah would be able to fight an 8
year long war with no aid? Two repugnant regimes were
fighting each other, and it was it the US intrest that
neither side win, which led to aid for whomever happed
to be losing at that point in time. Of course it's
easier to tgnore all this and endlessly parrot the
half truth of "US supported Saddam" when it helps
reinforce a preexisting hatred.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Electoral Reform Proposal
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:33:43 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

A great many assertions have been made on this list
recently concerning the Consul's proposed system for
elections. I should like to consider each of these
assertions, while trying my best to avoid becoming
entangled with the individuals behind them - I know we
all get bored when personalities overtake issues in
these debates.

Senator L. Sinicius Drusus wrote:
> That assumption is the first problem with a
> simulation. "Liking" a canidate isn't the only
reason
> someone might vote for them. There is the posibility
> of stragetic voting

This is absolutely correct, and I should like to say
two things about it.

Firstly, the proposed system will malfunction if large
numbers of voters attempt to engage in strategic
voting. A candidate who tries to organize strategic
voting in his favour may quite possibly end up
*losing* votes, because the system is too complicated
to predict the results of strategic voting. Candidates
who try to do such things will quickly find that there
is no way to work the system, and will allow voters to
vote as they please, which is what most ordinary
voters do anyway.

Secondly, this is not an argument against the accuracy
of computer simulations. Let us be very clear here:
the purpose of a computer simulation of this system
would not be to predict who would win, but to see
whether the system breaks down under any
circumstances. Whether the simulated voters vote
strategically or not does not affect such a test,
because all it shows is how the results of the
election compare with the votes cast.

The same Senator wrote:
> These types of reactions create a built in bias
> favoring the medicore canidate who is few people's
> first choice, but who is considered unobjectable
> enough to rank as a lot of people's third choice.

This is not correct. The proposed system results in
the election of the candidate who has most support. If
that is the mediocre candidate, then so be it. Some
people may be prepared to argue that a system which
elects the most popular candidates is inferior to one
which elects the most extreme, the most visionary, the
richest, the most intelligent or whatever. Such people
are quite entitled to their view, but these views are
not democratic and are not in line with Roman
tradition. The basis of the Roman system was that the
candidates with the most support should win; the basis
of democracy is the same; the basis of our system is
the same.

Senator & Consular L. Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
wrote:
> Heck, we could even have a referendum stipulating
> that whichever system produced the fewest/no runoffs
> (clearest) result would become the defacto election
> law.

Well, I think you would find that our system would win
on this basis, since it makes run-offs almost
impossible.

But this is not the only criterion for deciding on an
electoral system. The easiest way to avoid run-offs
would be to have no elections at all, and simply have
someone choose the next year's magistrates. A system
must also elect those candidates who have most
support: the Consul's system does this, while others,
including the pre-2754 system which has been
advocated, do not.

Senator & Consular Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
wrote:
> Just to be clear, there is little historical about
> this system, at least no more so than the current or
> previous systems. It has one possible historical
> aspect, allowing multiple votes, but the way
> votes are counted and the way the centuries vote is
> not at all historical.

I have already responded to this point, but there is
no harm in saying it again for the benefit of those
who missed it the first time.

The proposed system is more historical than any system
so far implemented, and it is more historical than any
system which has been proposed short of actually
having the centuries vote one by one. That method
would, of course, be a logistical nightmare and result
in elections taking months. It is possible, however,
to capture the advantages of the historical system and
encapsulate them in a quick and efficient one. This is
what the Consul's proposal does.

As Senator Drusus has explained, the advantage of the
historic system was that if one's favoured candidate
was clearly losing, one could change one's vote to
one's second-favourite. With the ancient system,
unfortunately, only people voting later had this
advantage.

In the proposed system, each century has a list of its
preferences, allowing it to 'change its mind' if its
favourite candidate can't win. In the proposed system,
all the centuries can do this, not just the later
ones. The system is therefore more historical than
most others as well as being more efficient and
fairer.

> A proposal for a system modeled as closely as
> possible on the ancient model was presented to
> Consul Quintilianus, I believe.

If so, the proposal did not make it as far as those of
us who were working with the Consul on the proposal.
The only thing I can think of that you might mean is
the e-mail Senator Fabius Maximus kindly sent us
explaining how the historic system worked, which was
not at all a proposal for a reform to NR's system, but
rather a very useful piece of historical information
from which we took inspiration.

Senator L. Sinicius Drusus wrote:
> The First fact is no one knows if there will be
> harmful side effects to this legislation, just like
> no one knew the 2754 reforms would have harmful side
> effects.

This is not correct. I, for one, know that there are
no harmful side-effects of this system, because I have
tested it for myself. Others can do this just as
easily as I can - I'm not a genius, nor a
mathematician. You just have to try out some numbers
and feed them into the system. Rogator Cassius Calvus
has done it, and has so far only brought to our
attention the fact that in some cases ties cannot be
avoided, which is an issue I shall come to shortly.
Governor Iunius Silanus has done it, and I shall
discuss his results also. I encourage everyone to do
it, or else to trust the Consul and his staff to have
done it properly themselves.

The same Senator wrote:
> The Fifth fact is only a Consul or a Praetor in the
> absence of the Consuls, can summon the Centuries to
> vote, so I can only sugest a mock election and a
> slate of canidates (Which I have allready done).

It is perfectly true that an ordinary citizen or even
a Senator cannot call a *real* election; however,
anyone at all is free to call a *mock* election if
they please. All you need do is announce the names of
the candidates and ask everyone who wishes to vote to
e-mail you privately with their votes. You then
calculate the results and announce them, together with
any problems you found. It could hardly be simpler,
and again I encourage anyone who has any doubts about
the proposed system's fairness or efficiency to do it.

The same Senator wrote:
> So one of the intents of this "fair" method of
> counting votes is to decrease the chances that a
> canidate whom the authers disapprove of will be
> elected, even though that canidate may have attained
> office under a traditional Roman method of counting
> the ballots.

If anyone can furnish any examples of an election in
which the candidate(s) who would have been elected
under the ancient system would not be elected under
the proposed system, I shall gladly discuss them.
Likewise, and more importantly, if anyone can furnish
any examples of an election in which the candidate(s)
who enjoy the support of the majority of centuries
would not win under the proposed system, I shall
gladly discuss these.

There is, however, a tendency for some critics of the
system to make unfounded and incorrect assertions
about the system based on their own beliefs but not
supported by any actual examples. The Consul has
offered several examples in the Handbook, and I should
be happy to think of more if anyone wants them.

On to one who has done just this. Governor D. Iunius
Silanus wrote:
> 100 electors - 51 support red and 49 support blue,
> thats a 51% - 49% electoral split. Elections are
> held for 5 vacant positions of the same
> office. Five red candidates and five blue candidates
> run for these 5 vacant offices. Under present and
> previous systems we could reasonably expect about
> 3 red candidates and 2 blue candidates to be
> elected. Reds, who have a small majority of the
> votes have a majority of the magistrates but a
> substantial minority of the blues are still
> represented.
>
> Under the proposed new system all 51 red supporters
> can approve all their candidates and all 49 blue
> voters can approve all theirs. However, with all
> five red candidates recieving 51 votes each, and all
> blue candidates receiving only 49, all the blue
> candidates are eliminated and the reds make
> a clean sweep, holding all 5 offices with only 51%
> of the vote.

I welcome this attempt to engage with the real
substance of the proposal on an empirical basis. I'm
afraid, however, there are a few flaws in this
example.

First, it seems to suggest the existence of political
parties, whereas these institutions do not exist in
Nova Roma and did not exist in the ancient Republic.
Each candidate is considered on his or her individual
merits by voters, and not based on his or her
membership of a party.

Second, the example misunderstands the operation of
the proposed system. If there are 100 voters, these
voters will be in various different centuries, and
their votes will determine the votes of their
centuries rather than the end result of the election.

Third, the example fails to notice that the proposal
is for reform of the Centuriate Assembly, which elects
only magistracies for which there are one or two
vacancies, not five.

Fourth, the example suggests that under previous
systems this situation would result in three red and
two green candidates being elected. Not so - in all
probability under previous systems one or two red
candidates would be elected, the rest would not attain
a sufficient majority and there would need to be
run-offs. In each run-off, the reds would be free to
vote again for their red candidates, and a couple more
red candidates would be elected. Then another run-off,
and probably a fifth red victory!

Fifth, the example takes it for granted that
proportional representation is the best electoral
principle. This is not universally accepted, and was
certainly not accepted by the Romans, who ran
elections on the basis that whoever had most support
should win.

Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus wrote:
> I've done some further thinking using the Honorable
> Senior Consul's
> example from the handbook.
>
> g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
> 1st C A C B A C A C C B B C A C C B C A A C
> 2nd A B A A B B C B A A A A C B A A B C C B
> 3rd B C B C C A B A B C C B B A B C A B B A
...
> Candidate C and candidate A both now hold 10
> centuries a piece, neither has a majority of 11
> centuries, thus the election is deadlocked.

This is quite correct. Unfortunately it is impossible
to eliminate ties altogether from any electoral
system. The greater the turnout and the more centuries
vote, the less likely they are, but this is not a
guarantee.

How are ties to be decided? In the proposed system
they are decided by lot, which is as fair as any
alternative when one has a pair of candidates who
genuinely have exactly equal support.

The alternative seems to me to be to decide between
the tied candidates by some arbitrary means such as
electing the one with the longer name, the longer
beard, the younger age or such. This is hardly fair,
and discriminates unnecessarily against some
candidates.

If there is another way, I'd be fascinated to hear it.

I hope this covers all the important issues which have
been raised, and dispels the red herrings amongst
them.

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Lesson in Terror - Comments
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:11:31 -0000

The point was that this use of "terror" was just not true. Romans
were very
> pragmatic. They were the friends of friends, but the enemies of
enemies. If
> one wishes to study the use of terror in conquest, study the
Assyrians and the
> Mongols.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
>
Salvete Proconsul Quinte et omnes,

Thanks for a very good rebutle with many interesting points Qiuntus.
I just wish to continue this conversation on terror.

I too, disagree with some of the points in the Washington Post
article. I am going to play the Devil's advocate a little on this
post and the kind of situations I discuss here are certainly
abhorrent and abominable to my morals. My point is that lessons in
terror can work very well against an occupied society or a society
living under a dictatorship. The fact that many governments refrain
from using the same ruthless tactics against those they perecive
as "terrorists" is part of their weakness in the eyes of those who
use terror tactics against them.

1) Assyria - Quintus is right. A good example. They are one of the
very few societies that actually bragged about and proudly recorded
their atrocities like flaying rebellious people alive and hanging
their remains of the city walls as a lesson. They were not conquered
by their own angry population. Another super power, Persia beat them
eventually.

2) Romans - If any slave murdered his master then by Roman law, all
the slaves of the household; men women and children were put to
death. This policy encouraged the slaves to report any plot against
their masters. Rome and its slavery lasted longer than any other
empire and did not fall because of angry children of victims.

3) Mongols - When the Mongols raged across the steppes into Europe
they gave the cities a chance to surrender. Any city that resisted
faced a massive slaughter and a huge head mountain collection. The
Mongols always permitted a dozen or so inhabitants to escape just so
they could flee to the next city or village and demoralize everyone
of what horrors were coming if they were to choose the path of
resistance. The Mongols fell apart becuase the descendents of old
Ghengis Khan were not the same calibre as their father and
grandfather.

4) Renaissance - In his book the Prince, Machievelli was writing a
survival guide for young aristocratic leaders who lived in the
Italian city states where decite, betrayel and assassination were
rampant. He advised many survivors that it was better to rule and
gain the respect of your subjects by fear rather than benevolance.
The powerful Medici family must have read his book and took his
advice.

5) The British Empire - During the Indian Mutiny, there was a
horrific slaughter of European civilian men, women and children in a
city called Cawnpore. Their bodies were diced and dumped down the
wells by the rebels. For revenge and to demoralize these people, the
Muslim and Hindu prisoners were tied to the mouths of cannons and
blasted one after another into the fields. The Muslim and Hindu
families who hated one another could not tell which body part which,
Hindu, Moslem etc. This after a few decisive battles greatly
demoralized the rebels. Well Britain stayed in India for almost
another 100 years and she as well as all the other Colonial powers of
the time only left when the cost of maintaining their colonies costed
more than what they could exploit. When they wavered on severe
punishment like in Israel and Ireland and the guerillas there used
terror tactics against them then they were forced to give in and make
cocessions. Oh yes they arrested and executed some of the leaders in
those countries but they didn't take the Assyrian or Roman type
approach.

6) WWII I some of the occupied countries, the policy was that if an
enlisted soldier was assassinated, 10 civilians were rounded up at
random and shot; 50 for an officer. Maybe that explains why the
various countries had a some collaboration going and the majority of
the populations were not kicking down the doors to join the partisans
or other guerilla groups in great numbers. It was only the invasion
of the foreign allied powers that threw the regime of terror out. Not
a resentful 2nd generation of the population. The same idea and
situation applies to Dictatorships from Idi Amin to Sadam Hussien.
Terror worked and it took foreign powers to throe them out. Not there
own people.

7) Middle East - I often wonder what would transpire if the west lost
its morals and handled terrorists from the middle east or East Asian
criminal gangs in a similar fashion; the suicide bombers and hit
squads as individuals are not afraid to give up their lives. What
their biggest fear and concern is the proliferation and continuation
of their family units. Now if their whole families right down to the
kids and 1st cousins faced summary execution for a terrorist act by a
member of that family just like the Roman slaves, I am sure they'd
think a good 10x or report a plot by a family member. I got a pretty
good idea of their reaction because I brought that up to friends of
mine in these communities. Anyway the kids as the post said would
just potential enemies in waiting.

In Saudi we think them as cruel and unsual in their punishments. You
can lose your hand for stealing. Well a friend of mine working over
there had to remove his 10 K rolex for a moment, got distracted and
left his watch behind in a busy restaraunt there. Two hours later he
came back; the watch was sitting on the table and hadn't moved an
inch!

Yes, evil though it is I'm afraid terror does work in many
circumstances and thank goodness many of our societies do try to
control the urge to handle their enemies tit for tat.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Yahoo Lesson in Terror
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:13:49 -0000

Salvete omnes,

Another lesson in terror. Yahoo is acting up today. Save your letters
before you post them to list!

Quintus


Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:16:48 -0700 (PDT)

--- Rachel Dugdale <livia@strategikon.org> wrote:
> Senator L. Sinicius Drusus first wrote:
> > LSD: That assumption is the first problem with a
> > simulation. "Liking" a canidate isn't the only
> > reason
> > someone might vote for them.
>
> Ah, it seems I phrased myself badly. The important
> factor is whether or not a person chooses to vote
> for
> any given candidate, regardless of reasons
> (including
> like and dislike, tactical voting, etc). I believe
> that once you take account of this, my previous
> arguments stand.
>
> And later:
> > These types of reactions create a built in bias
> > favoring the medicore canidate who is few people's
> > first choice, but who is considered unobjectable
> > enough to rank as a lot of people's third choice.
>
> Mediocre, no - not necessarily. Moderate, perhaps,
> but then the question is whether this is a terrible
> thing. Someone who everyone likes a bit could well
> make the general population more content than
> someone
> who half of them hate vehemently.
>
> Also, as Marinus has quite correctly pointed out
> (but
> it is important enough to bear repeating) this is
> inherent in any system.
>
> It's also just a variation of something one often
> encounters throughout life, called compromise.
>
> And in a later email:
> > So one of the intents of this "fair" method of
> > counting votes is to decrease the chances that a
> > canidate whom the authers disapprove of will be
> > elected, even though that canidate may have
> attained
> > office under a traditional Roman method of
> counting
> > the ballots.
>
> This is simply untrue. The intent of this - as
> every
> other - fair method of voting is to ensure that the
> candidates with the support of the electorate are
> those who are elected.
>
> Please, don't muddy our discussion of whether this
> particular method works with talk of whether it is
> well intended.
>
> As ever,
>
> Gaia Fabia Livia
>
>

"Fair" is one of those loaded political buzz words
that people use to attempt to intimidate the others
without making an argument. The more often I see it
applied to this lex the less I think of it.

Attempting to stack the deck against some canidates
may meet your definition of fair, but it certainly
dosen't meet mine.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 15:15:08 -0400

"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> writes:

> "Fair" is one of those loaded political buzz words
> that people use to attempt to intimidate the others
> without making an argument.

It is, is it? "Fair" is a descriptive term. How it gets
used is, as always, up to the person who uses it. If you
mean to accuse Livia of using the word "fair" wrongly, then
come out and say so. It looked to me as if she were saying
that the proposed method would produce a result which
reflected the will of the electorate, and to me that seems
a very proper use of the word "fair."

> The more often I see it
> applied to this lex the less I think of it.

What other words would you wish us to remove from the
lexicon of discourse before we continue?

> Attempting to stack the deck against some canidates
> may meet your definition of fair, but it certainly
> dosen't meet mine.

Who (other than you) has suggested that this proposal
attempts to "stack the deck" against anyone? I did say
earlier that approval voting mitigates against extremist
candidates, but that's hardly stacking the deck. I doubt
you could find even a significant minority of voting Nova
Romani who would favor the idea of electing extremists to
our magistracies. Extremists always stack the deck against
themselves, by their very nature.

By your logic our Republican model of government stacks the
deck against would-be kings or emperors. No Alexander the
Great or Caesar Augustus will ever arise here. Nor will
the like of King Arthur ever be able to impose by divine
right of kingship his will on us. Personally, I like that.
It says to me that in Nova Roma the will of the populace is
more important than the will of any one man or woman.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 15:39:26 -0400

Salve Decimus Iunius Silanus, et Salvete Omens,

Earlier, I'd written:
> > We propose a system which
> > will assure that political power is placed into the hands of those
> > whom the greatest number of the electorate approve. Nothing more
> > than that, and nothing less.

Silanus proposes:

> A scenario.
>
> 100 electors - 51 support red and 49 support blue, thats a 51% - 49%
> electoral split.

One involving two and only two political parties, which as Cordus has
already mentioned is hardly the case here. But I do appreciate your
effort to put together this illustrative example.

> Elections are held for 5 vacant positions of the same office.

My guess here is that you're assuming that we've already adopted this
proposal for the Centuriate Assembly and at some later point it has
been adopted by the Commitia as well. In the Centuriate Assembly we
only elect Consuls and Praetors, in multiples of 2 each.

But OK, suppose this becomes more general practice and gets adopted
by the Commitia, so that Rogators and Tribunes are elected using the
same model...

> Five red candidates and five blue candidates run for these 5 vacant
> offices. Under present and previous systems we could reasonably expect
> about 3 red candidates and 2 blue candidates to be elected.

Nooooo.... Under present and previous systems we could expect 2 or
3 of the vacancies to be filled and then we'd have to hold runoff
elections. Maybe if we actually had organized political parties the
results would be different, but I prefer our far more liquid system
of loose alliances.

[...]
> This new system has a very real danger of removing any representation from
> our government those whos ideals do not conform with the ruling majority.

I'd be more inclined to think that your example shows how a formalized
two party system might stifle minority representation. I'd even be
inclined to agree that I think it'd be a bad thing if we were to develop
such a two party system.

> It
> may very well result in the removal of the checks and balances inherent
> within the roman republican ideal. Any testing or mock elections must
> examine and ensure that this danger does not come to pass.

In this I agree entirely. The principle check against such a thing
happening right now lies outside of the manner in which the voters
mark their ballots. Our best check against the kind of party domination
you rightfully deplore lies in the way that tribes and centuries are
reapportioned each November just before the general elections. This
prevents candidates from being able to fix an election by intentionally
garnering the support of influential members of specific centuries and
tribes.

(It is noteworthy that no such realignments occured in Roma Antiqua,
and a lot of political corruption occured precisely because the most
influential tribes and centuries were courted by wealthy and
unscruplous politicians.)

But, to address your concern with respect to any mock election or other
kind of model testing, I agree that we should include testing of the
sort of limiting cases you illustrated. These limiting situations are
the places where statistical systems get into trouble, and are therefore
precisely the places we need to know how our system behaves.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS" <cybernaut911@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:04:52 -0000

MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS QVIRITIBVS S.P.D.

AVETE,

Greetings fellow citizens, I stand once more amongst you, in the
fellowship of Roman Republic. I greet also the city fathers, both
OPTIMATES ET POPVLARES in the Senate.

To my erstwhile colleagues MANIVS CONSTANTINVS SERAPIO ET QVINTVS
LANIVS PAVLINVS I hope I find you well in the service of Rome, and
that the gods and muses have smiled upon you both in your endeavours.
Your faithful labours shall find their reward.

May I also send my greetings to DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA for a
kindness that she showed me some time ago - Diana , you were right
VENVS has smiled upon me!

Finally, to Urania Antonina, I am a citizen from HIBERNIA, and
PATERFAMILIAS of the gens. CALIDIA, I should be honoured to sponsor
your application for citizenship with the CENSORES and accept you
into our FAMILIA, should you so desire. I will e-mail you privately
RE this.

VALE

M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS

TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE

POST SCRIPTVM: Would all CIVES note that e-mail address is :
cybernaut911@yahoo.co.uk

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete! Omnes;
> I am a new citizen from Hibernia, which has no gens. I have
made
> an application to found one but if there are older citizens from
> Hibernia I would be more than happy for them to found and lead the
> gens.
> Valete,
> Urania Antonina

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:09:57 -0000

Salve,
You got me there.
I don't think anyone has ever succeeded a WInter invasion on Russia.
I think it was the Mongols that were successful at invading but I
don't remember if it was in winter.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Drennan" <dragonpink@s...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@d...>
> <SNIP>
> > With regards to the 3rd Reich I see no hornet nest in your
comment.
> > Just people who skim over things quickly and don't pay enough
> > attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I
recall,
> > not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler
stupid;
> <SNIP>
>
> Salve,
> Actually, I would. But that's only because he invaded Russia in
winter. =)
> One would think with his intelligence he would have taken the
lesson from
> Naponleon about that one.
> Being that I'm both part German and marrying into an ethnic German
family,
> albeit one that immigrated to the US in the mid to late 1800's the
subject
> of Hitler is one of those things that we don't like to talk about.
Even
> though the man was Austrian, everything he did in the name of
Germany has
> given those of us with German heritage so much to live down. To
this day in
> my little neck of the woods, New Braunfels, people always talk
about "those
> back woods German families" as racist and Nazi sympathizers. Makes
me so
> angry considering everything I know to be true of several of those
families.
> More specifically, my fiance's family is so ANTI Nazi and Anti
racism it
> offends me when people make assumptions about them....But i'm
getting myself
> all worked up about things not even mentioned on this list. I'll
stop now.
> Vale,
> Claudia Fabia Calpurnia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: HAPPY SUMMER SOLSTICE!
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:23:51 -0000

Blessings.
I too have a Lara Shrine. Would you be familiar with the folowers of
Stregheria from Northern Italy?
While the weather sucked big time, the celebrations were not
inhibited.
Sol Invictus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
wrote:
> SALVETE OMNES! This morning at my Lararium I recited
> the hymn to SOL in honor of the Solstice and offered
> Sol incense. Then of course I made offerings to my Dei
> Familiae. This hymn by the way is the one well known
> by Marziano Capella and is commonly used by Roman
> Pagans in Italia, namely the MTR. I want to wish all
> my fellow Romani a very happy Summer Solstice! Buon
> auguri! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
> P.S. Besides Sol, Iuppiter Summanus and Fors
> Fortuna is honored at this solstice period, June 19th
> - 26th.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: HAPPY SUMMER SOLSTICE!
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:25:21 -0000

Salve Quintus,
I take it you are in the land of the white nights and Northern lights?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve and thank you Gai!
>
> It will indeed be a special day for me since the god's have blessed
> us with 24 hours of sunlight where I am working!
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
> wrote:
> > SALVETE OMNES! This morning at my Lararium I recited
> > the hymn to SOL in honor of the Solstice and offered
> > Sol incense. Then of course I made offerings to my Dei
> > Familiae. This hymn by the way is the one well known
> > by Marziano Capella and is commonly used by Roman
> > Pagans in Italia, namely the MTR. I want to wish all
> > my fellow Romani a very happy Summer Solstice! Buon
> > auguri! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
> > P.S. Besides Sol, Iuppiter Summanus and Fors
> > Fortuna is honored at this solstice period, June 19th
> > - 26th.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic? / Symbolism of Jesus Christ Superstar Film
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:30:01 -0000

Good musical JCSS.
rORY,
Not so much the Elusians but they were more Greek than Roman - there
are some good websites and I have a friend who worships the Elusian
Way that I can question.
Snip
>
> Salve Rory, Thank you for your response to my posting. I know you
are
> practicing other religion but if you get a chance I recommnend you
> watch the video musical , Jesus Christ, Superstar made about 1972
and
> filmed in Israel.
>
> SNIP
> > Cordially, Rory
> >
> > PS: Has any one here studied the mythos of "Elysium"
> > at all? It has always interested me, but there doesn't
> > seem to be a large amount of material to study
> > pertaining this belief in the Roman afterlife....
> > So far the best book that i have come across is "The
> > Ancient Mysteries --- A Sourcebook: Sacred Texts of
> > the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean
> > World".....It includes pertinent information about the
> > Greek Mysteries of the Grain Mother and Daughter, the
> > Homeric Hymn to Demeter, The Andanian Mysteries of
> > Messenia, The Greek Mysteries of Dionysos, the
> > Anatolian Mysteries of the Great Mother and Her Lover,
> > and the Syrian Goddess, the Egyptian Mysteries of Isis
> > and Osiris, and best of all, the Roman Mysteries of
> > Mithras.....
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > "Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I
> stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty
> women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."
> >
> >
> > http://www.galacticapublishing.com
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:04:38 -0000

Thank you.
Hibernia/Irish comments were very funny.
Regarding Jesus being single and living at home - it would be funny
too but it is not well publicized that he was married and did have
children. His bloodline exists till today in Europe and they are
among the most influential and wealthy families.
He married Mary from Magdalena. There are rumors that the bloodline
of Jesus is what was refered to as the Holy Grail and not actually
the cup. Interesting and thought provoking, no?

Solomon was faced with many issues but I don't know about that one in
particular - sounds ver logical.
The newer religions were faced with many uptight and prudish views
and customs held people back from enjoying themselves. Sex is not a
sin or should people feel guilty about it and we don't have a hell or
devil to fear, lol. I personally find it laughable to have
restrictions on fun, happiness and pleasure and being made to feel
guilty about it but everything in moderation is the key to harmony.

Those festivals do still go on today in many places. Though, unlike
the Sinful Orgy of Wanton sex and drugs that some people would have
others believe, they are satisfying to mind, body and soul on many
levels and nobody leaves feeling unfullfilled or lacking.

Feel free to e-mail me on the 3rd reich.
Marcus (Marco) mballetta@hotmail.com

Snip

>
> I am enjoying these discussions with you and you make yourself
> perfectly clear. Don't worry about joshing people a little. God, as
I
> believe made me so he has to have one heck of a sense of humor.
Also
> I always believed Jesus had to have been an Irishman from the
little
> known province of Hibernia.
SNIP
>
> You have some good valid points about some of the pagan religions.
I
> remeber reading years ago an article saying that the ancient Jews
> often slipped off "their" path of rightiousness because the new
one -
> god religion had so many restrictions to the point that it could
> never compete with the fun, comradery and festive spirit of their
> neighbour's pagan religions. That was a real problem for Solomon if
I
> remember correctly. Yep, I do have to admit that a pagan festival,
> especially for an ancient fertility god would be so lovely with the
> song, food, wine, scented flowers and a few wonderful maidens in my
> arms for a few days or so rather than listening to fire and
brimstone
> preaching. Are some of those feasts still in fashion with modern
> pagans?

>
> With regards to the 3rd Reich I see no hornet nest in your comment.
> Just people who skim over things quickly and don't pay enough
> attention to the texts would possibly misinterpret. No one I
recall,
> not even his mortal enemies and victims has ever called Hitler
stupid;
> I will elborate on that a lot more on a private note in future if
you
> wish. My mother had quite an experience with 2 German students in
the
> 30's but I'll explain that later so as not to get off topic.
>
> Yours respectfully,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 16:50:52 -0400

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@hotmail.com> writes:

> Regarding Jesus being single and living at home - it would be funny
> too but it is not well publicized that he was married and did have
> children. His bloodline exists till today in Europe and they are
> among the most influential and wealthy families.

I'd appreciate some sort of citation for this claim. I know that
it has been made in places like the TV show "In Search Of..."
and in the pages of tabloids like the _Weekly World News_ but
I remain quite skeptical.

It's very, *very* difficult to determine whether the historic
personage of Jeshua bar Joseph ever existed at all. The whole
story may well be an amazingly elaborate fiction put together
by clever messianics, though Occham's Razor suggests that the
story probably does have a kernel of truth to it. But claims
of marriage, children, etc... are purely speculative.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT)

> The Taliandits? They didn't exist until AFTER the
> Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan and the US ceased
> funding anyone there. Of course it's easier to
> mindlessly bleat the "funded the taliban" lie than
> to
> check out the facts, certainly easier when the lie
> reinforces prejudices.

Who is the "Taliandits" ????

I said TALIBAN, who were the force that, were trained
and armed and funded by the U.S. government (while
Osama bin Laden lead their military arm) drove the
Soviets out of Afghanistan. What pray tell, are you
talking about?

Saddam was ORIGINALLY first supported by the USA, and
yes, later by the Soviets, when the USA switched to
side with Iran against Iraq, hence , next the Soviets
stepped in to be their next "sugar daddy". Of course,
this switch happened several times, and after the
second Iraq invasion and NO WEAPONS OF MASS
DESTRUCTION were EVER located, the US government was
next claiming the illusive weapons of mass destruction
where in Syria and/or in Iran, and so the silly game
continues. But thanks for sharing your Faux News
information with me....Perhaps I can draw a cartoon
using your exact quotes to illustrate my point :P
The USA , have ALWAYS been the real threat to world
peace, and the regime holding all the true 'weapons of
mass destruction", enough to blow up the world ten
times over, which they have used several times against
several ethnic groups and peoples over the past few
years; from the Serbians to the Afghans to the Iraqis,
to the Somalians, and believe me, it will continue
unabated, for many years to come , there will be no
"Pax Americana"...

That economic interests have been at the core of every
military action for the past 60 years atleast was
openly declared by Major General Smedley Butler of the
U.S. Marine Corps in an interview with Money magazine
in December, 1951:

"Thus I helped to make Mexico, and especially Tampico,
safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make
Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City
Bank boys to collect revenue. I helped in raping half
a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of
Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I
helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking
house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light
to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests
in 1916. In China in 1927 I helped Standard Oil.
During those years I had, as the boys in the back
room would say, a swell racket. I was rewarded with
honors, medals, and promotions. Looking back on it,
I feel that I might have given Al Capone a few hints.
The best he could do was operate in three city
districts. I operated on three continents.
This, we are supposed to believe — conduct
tacitly endorsed by both our "democratic" government
and our "free" press — is action in furtherance of
respect for all races and cultures, and world peace.
“War is a racket”, declared Butler in a book he wrote
in 1935, “it is the only one in which the profits are
reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.” ( War
Is A Racket).

General Butler exposed the true agenda of American
militarism, yet what was once hidden from the public
is today heralded as great strides in "freedom" and
"peace". The agenda hasn't changed — what has been
altered is the mass-mind. An ignorant, flag-waving
mass of television-indoctrinated automatons gives
credence to the old axiom that —

“Blind patriotism is the phantom limb syndrome of a
mental amputee.”

Just a rudimentary knowledge of modern history quickly
reveals that the U.S. was 100% wrong in endorsing
Britain against the I.R.A., Israel against the
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, the K.L.A. against
Serbia, and Kuwait against Iraq ;
in each case America took a stance against freedom,
culture, and the truth of history. But as General
Butler conceded —

"... I spent most of my life being a high-class
muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street, and for
the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer — a gangster
for Capitalism ….Like all members of the military
profession I never had an original thought until I
left the service."

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:12:08 -0400

Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> writes:

> I said TALIBAN, who were the force that, were trained
> and armed and funded by the U.S. government (while
> Osama bin Laden lead their military arm) drove the
> Soviets out of Afghanistan.

You really ought to check your facts. The United States
backed mujahedeen fighters in Afghanistan, and it's possible
that Osama was among them. But the Taliban was founded in
Pakistan as an organization dedicated to the religious
education of young men.

Further down in the same post, you write:

> That economic interests have been at the core of every
> military action for the past 60 years atleast was
> openly declared by Major General Smedley Butler of the
> U.S. Marine Corps in an interview with Money magazine
> in December, 1951:

Smedley D. Butler died at his home in Philadelphia in 1940.
He couldn't possibly have been interviewed in 1951.

Now it's true that he often said the sort of things you
quoted. I suspect you quoted a transcription of his retirement
speech, which may have been reprinted at that later date. He
was convinced after his long years of service that the US should
maintain a strict isolationist policy overseas. He was a great
American, one I admire deeply. His two Medals of Honor are a
testament to his great personal courage.

I expect that General Butler would have agreed with you about
the Gulf Wars being driven by economic interests. Indeed, the
entire scope of US military action in the Persian Gulf region
going back to the mid 50's is based on the Eisenhower Doctrine,
which established that the middle eastern oil fields were of
vital interest to the security of the United States and that the
US would act to preserve the free and unimpeded flow of all
middle eastern oil.

I'll add that there is nothing morally wrong with that. Nations
act in their own best interest, or they fail. Rome secured both
Sicily and Egypt because Rome needed the grain harvests produced
in those two places. The modern western nations exist as energy
economies. If the availability of low priced energy were to end,
those nations would all be faced with terrible crises. Any threat
to the flow of oil, which remains the principle form of easily
transported and processed energy, is a threat against western
civilization and not just the US. The fundamental reason that other
western governments have questioned the actions of the US is
precisely that concern. Economic motivations are not evil.
Nations have economies, and those economies are the basis for the
personal prosperity of the citizens of those nations. Economic
motivations only become evil when the economic processes become
perverted to serve the few at the expense of the many.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"kerunos" <graymouser01@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:06:54 -0000

Salve

I believe the theory was put forward in a book called 'The Holy Blood
& the Holy Grail' which I think was published in the 80's (I forget
the name of the authors). It is indeed an 'interesting and thought
provoking' book, but while the authors are very plausible in the
presentation of their arguments, their theories remain just that -
theories, built on a series of conjectures without any definative
proof. An interesting read though.

Lucius Lucillus Catiline

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> writes:
>
> > Regarding Jesus being single and living at home - it would be
funny
> > too but it is not well publicized that he was married and did have
> > children. His bloodline exists till today in Europe and they are
> > among the most influential and wealthy families.
>
> I'd appreciate some sort of citation for this claim. I know that
> it has been made in places like the TV show "In Search Of..."
> and in the pages of tabloids like the _Weekly World News_ but
> I remain quite skeptical.
>
> It's very, *very* difficult to determine whether the historic
> personage of Jeshua bar Joseph ever existed at all. The whole
> story may well be an amazingly elaborate fiction put together
> by clever messianics, though Occham's Razor suggests that the
> story probably does have a kernel of truth to it. But claims
> of marriage, children, etc... are purely speculative.
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:23:17 -0000

Urania Antonina S.P.D

with what happiness do I find fellow countrymen from Hibernia as
cives of our great Roman Republic.
Honoured Marcus Calidius, I accept your great gift of citizenship
and adoption to your Gens.
Countrymen and distant sons and daughters of Hibernia may we meet
some day and pour libations in honour of our native land!
Vale
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS"
<cybernaut911@y...> wrote:
>
> MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS QVIRITIBVS S.P.D.
>
> AVETE,
>
> Greetings fellow citizens, I stand once more amongst you, in the
> fellowship of Roman Republic. I greet also the city fathers, both
> OPTIMATES ET POPVLARES in the Senate.
>
> To my erstwhile colleagues MANIVS CONSTANTINVS SERAPIO ET QVINTVS
> LANIVS PAVLINVS I hope I find you well in the service of Rome, and
> that the gods and muses have smiled upon you both in your
endeavours.
> Your faithful labours shall find their reward.
>
> May I also send my greetings to DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA for a
> kindness that she showed me some time ago - Diana , you were right
> VENVS has smiled upon me!
>
> Finally, to Urania Antonina, I am a citizen from HIBERNIA, and
> PATERFAMILIAS of the gens. CALIDIA, I should be honoured to
sponsor
> your application for citizenship with the CENSORES and accept you
> into our FAMILIA, should you so desire. I will e-mail you
privately
> RE this.
>
> VALE
>
>
> M. CALIDIVS GRACCHVS
>
> TVVS IN SODILICIO RES PVBLICA ROMANAE
>
> POST SCRIPTVM: Would all CIVES note that e-mail address is :
> cybernaut911@y...
>
>
>
> -- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> > Salvete! Omnes;
> > I am a new citizen from Hibernia, which has no gens. I have
> made
> > an application to found one but if there are older citizens from
> > Hibernia I would be more than happy for them to found and lead
the
> > gens.
> > Valete,
> > Urania Antonina


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] heathenrenewal
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:32:43 -0000

Salvete,

Well I'm pleased to see that one of my prementions came to pass about
50% of Americans disagreeing with their own government policies. I
see our friend, Heatenrenewal's profile that he is from the Big
Apple. Your last posting is really interesting but I am relieved you
are an American New Yorker and not one of our European NR's this
time. (Big grin)

Regards

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:26:34 -0400

Salve Lucius Lucillus Catiline,

> I believe the theory was put forward in a book called 'The Holy Blood
> & the Holy Grail' which I think was published in the 80's (I forget
> the name of the authors). It is indeed an 'interesting and thought
> provoking' book, but while the authors are very plausible in the
> presentation of their arguments, their theories remain just that -
> theories, built on a series of conjectures without any definative
> proof. An interesting read though.

Ah, thank you! I searched a bit around the web and found this review:

http://www.disinfo.com/pages/dossier/id96/pg1/

Quoting from the last paragraph of that page:

Embarking on the 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' mystery means exploring
where Pop Culture and the Sacred intersect in an infinite regressing
nest of quantum combinations. The original book spawned several
television documentaries and brought contemporary occult subcultures
into the mainstream (even influencing conspiracy theorists like
Robert Anton Wilson), foreshadowing the impact of the 'X-Files'
television series with a combination of foreboding and wonder that
entranced audiences worldwide. If many early conspiriologists feel
that armchair conspiracy theorizing has become too popular and too
mainstream, then the 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' phenomena may be seen
in retrospect as the critical turning point where a Culture exploded
beyond previous thresholds and began to devour itself. [End Quote]

That's about what I'd already concluded. But it's nice to have the
confirmation.

There's an old saying to the effect that "conspiracism is the
sophistication of the ignorant." I think a good dose of careful
skepticism is in order when considering the claims put forth.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 01:35:03 +0200

kerunos wrote:
> I believe the theory was put forward in
> a book called 'The Holy Blood & the Holy
> Grail' which I think was published in
> the 80's (I forget the name of the authors).

Salve, Luci Lucille Catiline.

I do believe you're referring to "Holy Blood, Holy Grail, written by
Michael Baigent, Henry Lincoln and Richard Leigh. The book's ISBN number
is 0440136482, for anyone interested. It mainly focuses around the
similarity of "san greal", or the holy grail, and "sang real", or true
blood. That is to say, that the expression "the holy grail" was a
misinterpretation of a reference to the bloodline of Christ, instead of
a cup.

For a discussion on this and many other similar subjects, including the
Hollow Earth, I recommend "Supressed Transmission" and the sequel by
Kenneth Hite, published by Steve Jackson Games.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: HAPPY SUMMER SOLSTICE!
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 23:28:46 -0000

---
Salvete omnes;
is there a web page for the MTR? I speak the quaint rustic tongue
of that region; avevo studiato Italiano nella Universita.
Valete,
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Blessings.
> I too have a Lara Shrine. Would you be familiar with the folowers
of
> Stregheria from Northern Italy?
> While the weather sucked big time, the celebrations were not
> inhibited.
> Sol Invictus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
> wrote:
> > SALVETE OMNES! This morning at my Lararium I recited
> > the hymn to SOL in honor of the Solstice and offered
> > Sol incense. Then of course I made offerings to my Dei
> > Familiae. This hymn by the way is the one well known
> > by Marziano Capella and is commonly used by Roman
> > Pagans in Italia, namely the MTR. I want to wish all
> > my fellow Romani a very happy Summer Solstice! Buon
> > auguri! VALETE! FRATER GAIVS IVLIVS IVLIANVS, PGI.
> > P.S. Besides Sol, Iuppiter Summanus and Fors
> > Fortuna is honored at this solstice period, June 19th
> > - 26th.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com