Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Flavius Vedius sends his greetings.
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:02:41 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 4:49:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
marcus.flavius@bigpond.com writes:

> If Germanicus wishes the Republic all the best, why is he in self imposed
> exile?
>
>
>
Q Fabius Maximus SPD
Salvete
A good question Flavius Aurelius, and one I have asked him. Suffice to say
he was suffering from life, he was being tugged in many directions, just had
his spouse rejected from a Senate seat, his offspring was sick, and he himself
had been humiliated before the Senate. So he has taken some time off. Of
course even if he wanted to return, he would have to wait for the approved
duration of time to pass before he could. However right now, he is more concerned
with other things though in his heart NR will always be his baby. I suspect one
day we will see him in the Forum, but not in the near future.

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:55:38 +0200

Salve Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius!

>Salve Consul C. Fabi Quintiliane,
>Salve Sp. Postumi Tuberte,
>Salvete Cives,
>
>--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Sp. Postumius Tubertus"
><postumius@g...> wrote:
>> If this is the case, and we do need to be prepared for the
>>citizens' distaste for it, why not simply start with a trial run
>>_before_ we put it to the voters for a final vote? I see no reason
>>to revert to old, ahistorical ways if we can try a new, historical
>>way before it is fully put to a vote for ratification or failure. Do
>>you agree?
>
>Just to be clear, there is little historical about this system, at
>least no more so than the current or previous systems.

These are system which are even less historical than the Fabian system.

>It has one
>possible historical aspect, allowing multiple votes,

It is more than a possible historical aspect! It _is_ a historical aspect.

>but the way
>votes are counted and the way the centuries vote is not at all
>historical. Modern efficiency is the key word here, emulating the
>ancients is not it seems.

Efficiency is good as I see it. As I see it the ancient Romans loved
efficiency, it is very Roman to be efficient! ;-)

>A proposal for a system modeled as closely
>as possible on the ancient model was presented to Consul
>Quintilianus, I believe. Only multiple voting was taken from that as
>being useful.

No such _proposal_ was presented to me.

>Since unfortunnately efficiency and not historicity is paramount here
>it seems, I am open to running concurrent simulations of this system
>and the older system that Drusus refers to and see which works better
>and which the voters prefer. We have time before the elections, we
>might as well put it to good use rather than experiment through the
>ballot box yet again. Furthermore, an election of historical
>personages as Drusus proposed would be FUN and we don't seem to have
>enough of that around here.

Computer simulations will be executed. I was puzzled to find that we
had a L. Cornelius Sulla and a Q. Fabius Maximus among the proposed
"candidates". A deliberate choice?

>Valete,
>
>Decius Iunius Palladius

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione - the discussion
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 02:05:50 +0200

Salvete Quirites!

My main aim with publishing this proposal was and still is to have a
chance to listen to what the Populus think and to have tough
evaluation of the proposal. That is why I have been sitting back and
listened.

When I try to make a summary this far, the result will be thus:

Some, like Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus have expressed very
constructive critism and also asked questions that seem to move the
discussion forward. Others, like Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius,
have kept a polite tone even when critizising a bit less deeply, Some
have decided that they like the thoughts of Honorable Gaius Iulius
Scaurus, who is a man of honor. His system is more of a collection of
ideas and it has its own problems as has been shown. At last there
have been some who have impressed very little in the discussion and
influenced, at least me, very little by not being constructive and
mostly not critizising the actual proposal.

While I have been listening to the discussions I have found that I
like the Fabian system even better than before. The critics have not
been able to persuade me that there are any serious flaws that we
haven't discovered and weeded out during the working process.

One aspect of the discussion has made me listen and think some more though:

We don't have strictly organised mass-parties in Nova Roma, but I
think that we have rather loosely knit together, small alliances of
individuals. I have seriously considered the risk that any group that
see themselves as a factio could get the impression that they would
risk to be shut out for positions in elections using the Fabian
system. Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus, You have been the clearest
and most honest representative of this kind of "fear". Still I can't
see that You have been able to show that the Fabian law have any
distinct risks to lead to such problems. On the contrary! What do You
say?

When it comes to computer tests, such will be executed soon, with the
programming code being pubilic and possible to check, use and improve
by everyone.

I will continue to listen and after a while I will decide if I can
present this proposal to the Comitia.

Now I must sleep.
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:07:24 -0700 (PDT)

Ah, but people you speak of were unaware of the
concept of "correct" spelling. That idea came about in
the last 300 years when dictionaries began to be
published. If you peruse texts written before then
you'll find divergent spellings from one author to the
next.

--- rory12001 <rory12001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is Nova Roma; the home of Cicero, Ovid,
> Lucretius!
> Citizens I will hang myself upon my palla if we
> cannot pick up
> our stylii and write with verve and literacy.
> Vale,
> Urania Calidia Antonina
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...>
> wrote:
> > Some people value content, others are more shallow
> and
> > can't see past style.
> >
> > "I Have no respect for a man who can only spell a
> word
> > one way"
> > Mark Twain
> >
> > --- M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@b...>
> > wrote:
> > > Quintus,
> > >
> > > There is a difference between shorthand and
> > > illiteracy :-)
> > >
> > > As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of
> > > "intellectuals" was ironic. But was
> > > disappointed to find it wasn't.
> > >
> > > M Flavius Aurelius
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
> > > <mjk@d...>
> > > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:50 AM
> > > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor
> > > spelling
> > >
> > >
> > > > > I would also suggest that posters to this
> list
> > > who wish to display
> > > > their
> > > > > superiority over other posters try learning
> to
> > > spell. At one stage,
> > > > someone
> > > > > managed to attempt to insult others on the
> list
> > > by calling them
> > > > > "intellectuals", but their spelling of that
> word
> > > was appalling. I
> > > > personally
> > > > > reasoned that it was a humourous
> mis-spelling,
> > > but found later I
> > > > was wrong.
> > > > > There is nothing that destroys one's
> credibility
> > > in a debate that
> > > > > demonstrating that one is illiterate.
> > > > >
> > > > > M Flavius Aurelius
> > > > >
> > > > Salve Marce,
> > > >
> > > > I had a discussion on another club and forum a
> > > while back. In many
> > > > cases we are in and out of the forum all day
> while
> > > doing many other
> > > > things. Sometimes we respond in a hurry like a
> > > wham, bam thank you
> > > > m'am style before too many other new posts
> bury
> > > our points so we do
> > > > not always concentrate on the spelling. If
> this
> > > were an Ivy League
> > > > debate, a university thesis or a job resume,
> then
> > > many of us would
> > > > have a dictionary at our side and proof read
> our
> > > text at least three
> > > > times over before submission. I get no degree
> or
> > > wage from NR so I am
> > > > not often that extremely careful.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, highly intelligent people from
> nuclear
> > > physicists to medical
> > > > doctors I know are the most sloppy, slovenly
> > > writers and spellers I
> > > > have met. I guess their peers call that being
> > > eccentric. Also we need
> > > > to accept new forms of shorthand coming into
> > > cyberspace. I will not
> > > > be the first to accept them but nor shall I be
> the
> > > last.
> > > >
> > > > C U later,
> > > >
> > > > respectfully,
> > > >
> > > > Quintus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:
> > > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > Roman Citizen
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizenship too easy
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:41:11 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 4:49:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjk@datanet.ab.ca writes:

> It is sad to see people become citizens and then soon disappear. In
> our gens we have only 5 people but we try to keep in touch and chat
> off and on where possible.

Q. Fabius Maximus SPD
Salvete

We had this discussion back in the Consulship of Decius Iunius and Lucius
Cornelius.
Why are people here?
If we must entertain them constantly then we aren't doing what we set out to
do, and if we
educate them in Roman ways, is that enough? It is a vexing question. For
myself my door is always open for questions about Roman politics, Religio, law
and the military.

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:42:02 -0000

> And my friend Quintus Lanius Paulinus said:
>
> < We have all taken some flak once and a while on this list.
> And given it--let's be honest now!
>
> <3) Let me remind you of the words of my old friend Oscar Wilde; "
The
> <only thing more horrible than being talked about is NOT BEING
TALKED
> <ABOUT AT ALL!!!!"
>
> So true! Who wants to be a wallflower anyway?
>
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia

My dear friend Diana,

What makes you say that? (LOL / hoe true)

Vale bene,

Quintus Hypococrates Paulinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:44:32 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 5:07:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
christer.edling@telia.com writes:

> Computer simulations will be executed. I was puzzled to find that we
> had a L. Cornelius Sulla and a Q. Fabius Maximus among the proposed
> "candidates". A deliberate choice?
>
>

One restored the power of the Senate, the other saved Rome. I was
disappointed to see
no Cincinnatus though.

Q. Fabius Maximus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:48:53 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 5:08:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@yahoo.com writes:

> Ah, but people you speak of were unaware of the
> concept of "correct" spelling

Actually for years people spelled "phonetically" Especially in old English.
And if you study graffiti in Pompeii or Duras Europa you will find that not
every
one wrote like Tullius or Iulius.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:49:27 -0700 (PDT)

--- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@telia.com> wrote:
SNIP
>
> Computer simulations will be executed. I was puzzled
> to find that we
> had a L. Cornelius Sulla and a Q. Fabius Maximus
> among the proposed
> "candidates". A deliberate choice?
>

I was the one who sugested the canidates. The choices
were deliberate but not in regard to any citizen of
Nova Roma. They are among the most well known
Consulars, and therefore the ones most likely to be
familar to citizens who aren't scholars.

A Computer Sim can gauge the mechanics of a situation,
but not the Human reactions to it. That can only be
gauged by actual usage by humans.

I strongly urge my fellow citizens to vote against ANY
election reform, be it the Fabian or the Julian
proposal unless it has been tested by actaul Mock
elections where citizens vote. We have had enough
surprises over the past two years.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:42:25 -0000

Salve A. Appolonius Cordus:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > I can only speak for myself and my experience as
> > Rogator. Having read the honorable Scaurus'
> > proposal, I do think that it is workable
> > from the Rogator's stand point since only a few
> > centuries would be voting on a given day.
>
> It's good to have you back in the discussion, both for
> your clear thinking and for your vote-counting
> experience.
>
> I wonder if I could impose on you to answer a couple
> of other questions about the Iulian system:
>
> In your experience, how long does it take to count the
> votes of a century? Would 24 hours be sufficient, and
> how much time would be left out of the 24 hours for
> the voters to cast their votes?

QCC: How long it takes for the Rogator depends primarily on how many
people vote and how many different elections are taking place. Given
my experience a person could resolve the Censorial, Consular, and
Praetor elections in about 10 minutes for each, so half an hour a day
on the 4 days that have more than one Century voting. On the four
days that have only one Century voting probably about 5 minutes to do
the whole thing. Since there are multiple Rogators each can take a
different election and alternate days so the burden is divided. It
would take a few tweeks in the way that the Rogators work amongst
ourselves, but nothing that couldn't be done if we sat down amongst
ourselves and worked it out.

> More importantly, you said of the Fabian system:
>
> "After careful study I do believe that the methodology
> employed would produce an accurate reflection of the
> will of the voters".
>
> Would you be prepared to say the same of the Iulian
> system?

The basic counting methodology in the Iulian is about the same as the
methodology now employed, just a few minor tweeks such as multiple
choice on the part of the voter and a more regimented voting
schedule. The current system does produce an accurate reflection of
the will of the voters, and so would the Iulian.

The fundamental problem in the current system being employed isn't
really the methodology of vote counting. The root of the problem is
in the methodology of the vote casting. The voter isn't able to
fully exercise his/her will because he/she can only vote for one
candidate even if there are two vacancies to be filled. Fortunately
so far the only Centuriate elections to be deadlocked because of
the "pick one system" is the Praetor elections. We've really seen
how much the "pick one system" to fill multiple vacancies creates
major deadlock is in the Quaestor and especially in this year's
Tribune elections where there is a large number of candidates and
many vacancies but a voter can only pick one candidate. Both the
Fabian and Iulian proposals take care of the "pick one" problem.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:49:58 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Flavius Aurelius
<marcus.flavius@b...> wrote:
> Quintus,
>
> There is a difference between shorthand and illiteracy :-)
>
> As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of "intellectuals" was
ironic. But was
> disappointed to find it wasn't.
>
> M Flavius Aurelius

Salve,

Not everyone here is a touch typist such as myself. My sister can
write a letter in long hand that is flawless, but put her on a
keyboard and all semblence of education goes out the window. Also
not everyone in Nova Roma has English as their first language so one
must make allowances for interesting spelling and syntax.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 02:06:50 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I would like to preface my remarks with a note that the sketch of a
voting system which would closely approximate that of the historical
Comitia Centuriata given the exigencies of the internet which I
appended to my discussion of the historicity of the proposed Lex Fabia
was more an exercise in thinking-aloud than a fully thought-out
electoral proposal. I freely grant that there are many details which
need to be worked out before I would consider it an implementable
proposal. There have been, however, a few comments on my remarks
which seem to have arisen from my failure to place those ideas in a
fuller context.

First, my sketch of an electoral process in the Comitia Centuriata is
not very democratic and would exclude some citizens from voting in the
same way that the process in Roma antiqua did. It is intentionally
so. The reason for this is that the Roman polity was a mixed system
which included significant checks and balances between social classes
and within the Roman oligarchy. The Senate and the Comitia Centuriata
were balanced by the Comitia Populi Tributorum and, even more so, by
the Comitia Plebis Tributorum and a small number of activist tribuni
plebis (while Gruen is certainly right about the majority of tribuni
plebis in the late republic being quite conservative, the system
required only a handful of activist popularis tribuni to work
relatively effectively). The Sullan legislation seriously upset that
balance by limiting legislative power to the Comitia Centuriata and
abolishing the legislative role of the tribuni plebis. I tend to see
much of the political conflict in the last decades of the republic
centering on those who wanted to retain the Sullan reconfiguration of
the polity and those who realised that it concentrated power too
narrowly in a portion of a specific class and in a limited faction
within the oligarchy to serve as a basis for governance. The way in
which NR elections currently take place represents as much a departure
from the traditional Roman as the Sullan constitution did: it fails to
take in account the need for institutional balances. The Comitia
Centuriata _should_ be skewed to the first two classes to balance the
effects of the highly democratic Comitia Populi Tributorum and Comitia
Plebis Tributorum and the right of tribuni plebis to convene and
legislate in both the Comitia Plebis Tributorum and (so long as
patricians remain a significant proportion of the citizenry) the
Comitia Populi Tributorum. This institutional balancing of interests
is the genius of the Roman polity and the republic perished when that
balance was lost. I am a popularis -- I want a strong Comitia Plebis
Tributorum and active tribuni plebis -- but I also want the political
balance that evolved from the conflict of classes in Roma antiqua, and
treating the Comitia Centuriata as a slightly more arcane version of
the other assemblies does not maintain that balance.

In a more modern context, a skewing of power in the Comitia Centuriata
to the first and second classes provides a real incentive for citizens
to become more active in NR, since their century points (which are a
proxy for level of participation) determine the class and century into
which they assigned. The ancient Romans did not need require so many
incentives to participate in their polity -- they had no other; we in
NR compete with other activities constantly for the attention of our
citizens.

Second, I am not wedded to the notion of twenty-four hour voting
periods to emulate the serial polling of the historical process; it
could be thirty-six or forty-eight hours -- whatever affords the
greatest ease to citizens. What is important is the sequential
process and the ability of later centuries to know the pollings of
their precedecessors.

Third, I don't see the process of tallying and reporting the votes of
each group of centuries at the end of each voting period as being all
that burdensome. I am no computer scientist, but I think that even I
could write the code necessary to automate most of the tallying. I
hope that the genuine computing experts among us would comment on the
possibility of automating a substantial part of the tallying process.

Fourth, I don't think that a more historical electoral process would
be overly burdensome to the citizenry. If it is too much trouble for
a citizen to go to the Album Gentium and discover his century
assignment and then view a calendar on the website which establishes
which century is to vote when (the lots for the centuriae
praerogativae can be drawn at the rogatio and posted immediately to
the website on the opening day of voting), then I honestly wonder
whether the Nova Roma will ever be more than a pipedream. If need be,
we can create an automated system which sends an email to every
citizen with a note of the citizen's century and voting period at the
start of the election. Do we really imagine that our citizens are so
incompetent that they could not follow the instructions of such an email?

Fifth, it is not possible to accurately test a such like that which I
have sketched on the basis of last year's election data. One key
difference is the sequential polling of the historical model. A test
which does not take into account this key feature does not test the
proposition.

In conclusion, I would like to point out that we are still operating
under the first Vedian legislation in _all_ comitia in matters of
trying legal cases, since the language of every succeeding piece of
legislation limits the repeal of its predecessors to electing
magistrates and enacting laws, not to hearing trials of original
jurisdiction or appeal. It happens that historically every
prosecution in the comitia (as opposed to prosecution in standing
quaestiones) required adoption of a lex or plebiscitum, but that is
not what either the constitution or laws of NR say. That this
omission has continued over multiple revisions of comitial procedures
suggests to me that we might want to take some significant time
working out exactly how we want the electoral system to work.

As I said above, I don't see the ideas I put forward as an electoral
proposal ready to be adopted. The sketch needs more work and I well
debate about those ideas and the values upon which they are predicated.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:32:27 -0000

Cives, I admit the first dictionary was written in the 18th Century
by Samuel Johnson & this uncouth Germanic dialect we write in has its
oddities.
But as proud NoviRomani let us impress & dazzle with our spelling
& ability to conjugate in numerous cases and various moods. I offer
libations to the Muse of Literacy (who would that be?) to inspire us
all.
Vale
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 5:08:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@y... writes:
>
>
> > Ah, but people you speak of were unaware of the
> > concept of "correct" spelling
>
> Actually for years people spelled "phonetically" Especially in old
English.
> And if you study graffiti in Pompeii or Duras Europa you will find
that not
> every
> one wrote like Tullius or Iulius.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:38:44 -0400

rory12001 <rory12001@yahoo.com> writes:

> I offer
> libations to the Muse of Literacy (who would that be?)

There's no single Muse of Literacy, since most of the Muses are
patronesses of writers of one sort or other. Probably the best
choice for what you intend would be Polyhymnia, the Muse of
Sacred Poetry. She is the patroness of those writers who have
gained immortal fame with their writing.

See:

http://www.eliki.com/portals/fantasy/circle/polyhymnia.html

For more about her.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:47:29 -0700 (PDT)

--- G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS <gfr@intcon.net> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
SNIP

> What is important is the sequential
> process and the ability of later centuries to know
> the pollings of
> their precedecessors.

Thus far you have only spoken of the Comitia
Centuriata. The Tribal assemblies also voted
sequentally in Antiquita. This year our greatest
problem was in one of these assemblies. Sequental
voting would have had the same effect in the tribes as
it had in the Centuries and may have resulted in a
fifth Tribune being elected months ago. It would be
far easier to implement in the tribal assemblies, a
week of voting with 5 tribes voting each day. Order
could be determined by lot, with the provisio that the
Urban tribes would always vote on the last day.

> Fourth, I don't think that a more historical
> electoral process would
> be overly burdensome to the citizenry. If it is too
> much trouble for
> a citizen to go to the Album Gentium and discover
> his century
> assignment and then view a calendar on the website
> which establishes
> which century is to vote when (the lots for the
> centuriae
> praerogativae can be drawn at the rogatio and posted
> immediately to
> the website on the opening day of voting), then I
> honestly wonder
> whether the Nova Roma will ever be more than a
> pipedream. If need be,
> we can create an automated system which sends an
> email to every
> citizen with a note of the citizen's century and
> voting period at the
> start of the election. Do we really imagine that
> our citizens are so
> incompetent that they could not follow the
> instructions of such an email?
>
If a citizen finds it too much trouble to find out
which Century he belongs to, and which day that
Century will vote, I can't help but wonder if he has
bothered finding out anything about the canidates. We
may be better off if these citizens don't vote at all.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:05:52 -0400

Salve Well said Propraetor

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: gaiuspopilliuslaenas
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:29 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History

Salvete Gai Iuli et Quirites,

I am immensly pleased that Gaius Iulius Scarus has joined us in Nova
Roma. I am amazed at his scholorship and gratified by his
helpfulness (he even taught me how to properly pronounce my own
nomem ;-)).

Now he comes forth with a historical method to correct our election
problems, which appears workable and simple.

I would ask the roagtores to speak as to the actual workability of
the proposal based on their requirements and experience. As for 24
hours being too little time for cives to vote, I disagree. It takes
less than 5 minutes to vote at the cista. If a cive cannot be
bothered to know when they are too vote, and then take that 5
minutes, they don't understand or appreciate the value of their
citizenship as Quintus Fabius has pointed out.

I fully support Gaius Iulius' idea subject to the report of the
rogatores and I publiclly thank him for his support of our Republic.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Tribunus Plebis
Propraetor America Austrorientalis

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:22:09 -0400

Salve Well said dear cousin

and now a question if I may

Is they any need to deal with this proposed lex now or can we wait until the census is over and we have real number to deal with?

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum

Salve:

I am sorry I don't know your name. Thank you for your reply to my post,
and my thanks to Cordus too for his reply, who is carrying the argument
admirably and I can imagine the work and effort that goes with that, and if
this proposal passes I want him to run the elections even if he says no.
We'll have a praetorian guard, or whatever it was in those early days, pick
him up from that boat overlooking that glorious bay, to come and run the
elections. Just like Cincinnatus, because he seems to be the only one able
to understand the workings of this proposal.

Your observations are fair, but let me put it another way.

It seems to me there are 2 issues in question here. The first is that
of authenticity, and I think most of us are for authenticity but there is a
limit to how much authenticity we can have because we don't live in 200 BC.
Our sensibilities and our realities are not those of 200 BC and even if we
were to bring forth the Romans themselves into the 21st Century they'd have
to conduct their lives differently than the way they did it back in Rome.

We want to revive the culture, the traditions, and the ways but we must
be practical about it, or we'll just be role playing on the side. It is
like interpreting a law. There are 2 ways to interpret a law: One
interpretation according to the letter of the law and another according to
the spirit of the law, and when we interpret a law to the letter we may
commit injustice, and we must follow the same analogy with NR. We'd bring
back the tradition according to the spirit of the tradition and not to the
letter when it can't be helped.

We don't have slavery nor gladiatorial exibitions nor do we treat our
women as property or second class citizens and these are mores by which the
ancients lived and it doesn't make us any less when we condemn those mores
as we try to be Romans because there is much in the culture that is rich,
beautiful, and speaks to the human condition which is the same then as
today.

And that brings me to the heart of the issue: we have a 21st Century
organization to run and it has to be run efficiently and to do that we need
an efficient and practical way to choose our CEOs, presidents and prime
ministers, that is, the magistrates.

I made a copy of the proposal when it came out, 11 pages. I started to
read it and half way through I gave up. No modern organization or
corporation could pass a system like that. It is too long and too
complicated. Elections ought to be simple and transparent. I don't mean to
dig up the horse, as we often do, but I just want to conclude my argument
and won't bring it up again since there are 400 other members on this list.
In my opinion, a simple majority vote system and a runoff for the top 2
candidates is simple, efficient, and representative. I have no problem with
the centuries and century points, and that is in the spirit of the
tradition, and I appreciate it that people who are active and knowledgeable
have a stronger say. Furthermore, let's syncronize the elections instead
of separate elections for council and separate elections for tribune etc, so
the elections are events of importance. Too much of a thing trivializes it.

Valete omnes

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

----Original Message Follows----
From: politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
Centuriatorum
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:20:10 -0700 (PDT)

I concur with the statements that others have made
that the current system has too many run-offs, and
therefore a better system must be instituted. However,
I must disagree with your statement that "everywhere
in the 21st century, magistrates are elected by
majority vote." In fact, in most Western nations it
is at best who have a greater plurality. In the 2000
U.S. election, George W. Bush received a majority from
the electoral college, however that was not reflective
of the popular vote...

(trimmed for brevity)

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:25:46 -0400

Salve and please tell us it was just a typo "Trust me, I'm a civil servant. ;)"

Vale

Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: A. Apollonius Cordus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum

A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Galerius Peregrinator, and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Thank you for your reply to my post,
> and my thanks to Cordus too for his reply, who is
> carrying the argument
> admirably and I can imagine the work and effort that
> goes with that, and if
> this proposal passes I want him to run the elections
> even if he says no. We'll have a praetorian guard,
> or whatever it was in those early days, pick
> him up from that boat overlooking that glorious bay,
> to come and run the elections.

Goodness, well, thanks for your praise and thanks, I
think, for your threat. :)

> We'd bring back the tradition according to the
> irit of the tradition and not to the
> letter when it can't be helped.

Thanks for your lucid exposition of this argument
against over-rigid reconstruction. I find myself quite
in agreement.

> I made a copy of the proposal when it came out, 11
> pages. I started to read it and half way through I
> gave up. No modern organization or
> corporation could pass a system like that. It is
> too long and too complicated.

Ah, and here I'll have to disagree. Not only is
Alternative Vote (the system on which the Fabian
system is based) actually used, with no trouble from
candidates, in Australia and the Republic of Ireland,
but it is also used in various organizations smaller
than nations, including the British House of Lords
(upper legislative chamber) and Oxford University (to
elect the Chancellor). My student union uses it, with
no confusion to anyone.

It really is a fairly simple system when one gets used
to it. If we implemented it for this year's elections,
then by next year you'd be quite comfortable enough
with it to explain it to all the citizens who had
joined since.

I'm not a mathematically minded person. I think in
words, not numbers and proportions. If I can
understand this system, then anyone can understand it.
Honestly. Trust me, I'm a civil servant. ;)

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:38:54 -0400

Salve L. Sicinius Drusus

On another Roman history web site someone had the nerve to put Nazi SS troop and US Marines in the same sentence, implying they were one and the same . As the son of a WWII Marine I look him to task and ripped him a now A___ hole.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: L. Sicinius Drusus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm

<Sigh>,
I Suspose you are talking about the contempt I showed
to a poster yesterday.

This person jumped in with insulting language like
"baby killer" directed at myself and a large portion
of our citizens who happen to be vetrans of active
members of the US Military, posted a pack of lies that
a minor ammount of research away from sites that only
post the tripe he wannts to beleave, and flat out
refused to persue an area of research suggested by
another person.

If someone comes on this forum posting slanders about
Pagans being "Devil Worshipers", or the "Kike"
Conspiricy, or the inferoity of "Niggers", I doubt
that most of us would be expected to treat it as a
mere difference of opinion. Yet people who have served
in the United States Armed Forces are expected to
accept the worst slanders as mere difference of
opinion.

--- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
<mballetta@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
> I think some people in togas are plotting against
> me.
>
> I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in
> many replies to
> comments.
> People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or
> condemn others point
> of view without really getting a chance to find out
> if they are
> deserving. Especially when we really don't know
> eachother well.
> I've always found it prudent to feel someone out and
> talk to them
> first to make sure and even then, if a person wishes
> to be an idiot,
> so be it, it isn't my place to tell them so but try
> to enlighten them.
>
> Beginnings are a delicate time and great allowences
> should be made
> for mutual understanding.
>
> Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels
> comfortable giving
> an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for
> fear of being
> ridiculed or ostracised.
> I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg
> different opinions
> and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as
> some of you have
> already done, thank you).
> I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would
> be a bore but
> some people seem so caught up in themselves that it
> becomes an
> extremely personal assault.
> I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we
> have a community
> (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied
> outlook on a number of
> issues that can make for fantastically wonderful
> conversations.
>
> Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:48:25 +1000

As a matter of interest, what was the correlation?

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm

> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> On another Roman history web site someone had the nerve to put Nazi SS
troop and US Marines in the same sentence, implying they were one and the
same . As the son of a WWII Marine I look him to task and ripped him a now
A___ hole.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Sicinius Drusus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
>
>
> <Sigh>,
> I Suspose you are talking about the contempt I showed
> to a poster yesterday.
>
> This person jumped in with insulting language like
> "baby killer" directed at myself and a large portion
> of our citizens who happen to be vetrans of active
> members of the US Military, posted a pack of lies that
> a minor ammount of research away from sites that only
> post the tripe he wannts to beleave, and flat out
> refused to persue an area of research suggested by
> another person.
>
> If someone comes on this forum posting slanders about
> Pagans being "Devil Worshipers", or the "Kike"
> Conspiricy, or the inferoity of "Niggers", I doubt
> that most of us would be expected to treat it as a
> mere difference of opinion. Yet people who have served
> in the United States Armed Forces are expected to
> accept the worst slanders as mere difference of
> opinion.
>
> --- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> <mballetta@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
> > I think some people in togas are plotting against
> > me.
> >
> > I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in
> > many replies to
> > comments.
> > People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or
> > condemn others point
> > of view without really getting a chance to find out
> > if they are
> > deserving. Especially when we really don't know
> > eachother well.
> > I've always found it prudent to feel someone out and
> > talk to them
> > first to make sure and even then, if a person wishes
> > to be an idiot,
> > so be it, it isn't my place to tell them so but try
> > to enlighten them.
> >
> > Beginnings are a delicate time and great allowences
> > should be made
> > for mutual understanding.
> >
> > Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels
> > comfortable giving
> > an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for
> > fear of being
> > ridiculed or ostracised.
> > I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg
> > different opinions
> > and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as
> > some of you have
> > already done, thank you).
> > I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would
> > be a bore but
> > some people seem so caught up in themselves that it
> > becomes an
> > extremely personal assault.
> > I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we
> > have a community
> > (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied
> > outlook on a number of
> > issues that can make for fantastically wonderful
> > conversations.
> >
> > Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
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> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:04:44 -0400

Salve Q. Cassius Calvus said in part

"We've really seen how much the "pick one system" to fill multiple vacancies creates major deadlock is in the Quaestor ...... "

and it should be remembered that there were 7 candidates for 8 Quaestorships. Voting for just one at a time made and makes no sense.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum et Quaestor

----- Original Message -----
From: quintuscassiuscalvus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:42 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History

Salve A. Appolonius Cordus:

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
> all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
> > I can only speak for myself and my experience as
> > Rogator. Having read the honorable Scaurus'
> > proposal, I do think that it is workable
> > from the Rogator's stand point since only a few
> > centuries would be voting on a given day.
>
> It's good to have you back in the discussion, both for
> your clear thinking and for your vote-counting
> experience.
>
> I wonder if I could impose on you to answer a couple
> of other questions about the Iulian system:
>
> In your experience, how long does it take to count the
> votes of a century? Would 24 hours be sufficient, and
> how much time would be left out of the 24 hours for
> the voters to cast their votes?

QCC: How long it takes for the Rogator depends primarily on how many
people vote and how many different elections are taking place. Given
my experience a person could resolve the Censorial, Consular, and
Praetor elections in about 10 minutes for each, so half an hour a day
on the 4 days that have more than one Century voting. On the four
days that have only one Century voting probably about 5 minutes to do
the whole thing. Since there are multiple Rogators each can take a
different election and alternate days so the burden is divided. It
would take a few tweeks in the way that the Rogators work amongst
ourselves, but nothing that couldn't be done if we sat down amongst
ourselves and worked it out.

> More importantly, you said of the Fabian system:
>
> "After careful study I do believe that the methodology
> employed would produce an accurate reflection of the
> will of the voters".
>
> Would you be prepared to say the same of the Iulian
> system?

The basic counting methodology in the Iulian is about the same as the
methodology now employed, just a few minor tweeks such as multiple
choice on the part of the voter and a more regimented voting
schedule. The current system does produce an accurate reflection of
the will of the voters, and so would the Iulian.

The fundamental problem in the current system being employed isn't
really the methodology of vote counting. The root of the problem is
in the methodology of the vote casting. The voter isn't able to
fully exercise his/her will because he/she can only vote for one
candidate even if there are two vacancies to be filled. Fortunately
so far the only Centuriate elections to be deadlocked because of
the "pick one system" is the Praetor elections. We've really seen
how much the "pick one system" to fill multiple vacancies creates
major deadlock is in the Quaestor and especially in this year's
Tribune elections where there is a large number of candidates and
many vacancies but a voter can only pick one candidate. Both the
Fabian and Iulian proposals take care of the "pick one" problem.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:22:23 -0400

Salve M Flavius Aurelius

Sorry, I should have added that Nova Romans are much more polite and historically mined to have made such a statement.

Vale

Tiberius
----- Original Message -----
From: M Flavius Aurelius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm

As a matter of interest, what was the correlation?

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm

> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> On another Roman history web site someone had the nerve to put Nazi SS
troop and US Marines in the same sentence, implying they were one and the
same . As the son of a WWII Marine I look him to task and ripped him a now
A___ hole.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Sicinius Drusus
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
>
>
> <Sigh>,
> I Suspose you are talking about the contempt I showed
> to a poster yesterday.
>
> This person jumped in with insulting language like
> "baby killer" directed at myself and a large portion
> of our citizens who happen to be vetrans of active
> members of the US Military, posted a pack of lies that
> a minor ammount of research away from sites that only
> post the tripe he wannts to beleave, and flat out
> refused to persue an area of research suggested by
> another person.
>
> If someone comes on this forum posting slanders about
> Pagans being "Devil Worshipers", or the "Kike"
> Conspiricy, or the inferoity of "Niggers", I doubt
> that most of us would be expected to treat it as a
> mere difference of opinion. Yet people who have served
> in the United States Armed Forces are expected to
> accept the worst slanders as mere difference of
> opinion.
>
> --- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> <mballetta@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
> > I think some people in togas are plotting against
> > me.
> >
> > I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in
> > many replies to
> > comments.
> > People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or
> > condemn others point
> > of view without really getting a chance to find out
> > if they are
> > deserving. Especially when we really don't know
> > eachother well.
> > I've always found it prudent to feel someone out and
> > talk to them
> > first to make sure and even then, if a person wishes
> > to be an idiot,
> > so be it, it isn't my place to tell them so but try
> > to enlighten them.
> >
> > Beginnings are a delicate time and great allowences
> > should be made
> > for mutual understanding.
> >
> > Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels
> > comfortable giving
> > an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for
> > fear of being
> > ridiculed or ostracised.
> > I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg
> > different opinions
> > and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as
> > some of you have
> > already done, thank you).
> > I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would
> > be a bore but
> > some people seem so caught up in themselves that it
> > becomes an
> > extremely personal assault.
> > I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we
> > have a community
> > (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied
> > outlook on a number of
> > issues that can make for fantastically wonderful
> > conversations.
> >
> > Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:36:03 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus T. Galerio Paulino salutem dicit.

Salve, T. Galeri.

> On another Roman history web site someone had the nerve to put Nazi
SS troop and US Marines in the same sentence, implying they were one
and the same . As the son of a WWII Marine I look him to task and
ripped him a now A___ hole.

I have no idea what the chap to whom you allude wrote, but I can
easily imagine a perfectly reasonable sentence containing a reference
to both the Waffen-SS and US Marine Corps which, while flattering to
neither, would be historically accurate. For example, in an
environment in which youths barely out of school, pushed to the limits
of endurance by a punishing physical training, intoxicated with
visions of virile, heroic violence, then brutalised by the real
torments of war and the strikingly ugly, usually unheroic deaths of
comrades, and encouraged to view of the enemy as fundamentally
subhuman by wartime propaganda it is to be expected that atrocities
happened -- this was true both for troops of the Waffen-SS on the
eastern front and the US Marine Corps in the Pacific campaign; the
frequency of such atrocities varied between these two elite military
formations, partly because the SS ideology rejected the notion of laws
of war in principle and partly because the reaction to such atrocities
by higher command was markedly different in the two cases, to a
significant degree because of a difference in fundamental values, but
also because the relative freedom of the American press, even with
wartime censorship and the tendency to present the Japanese in racial
terms which were almost never used of the Germans and Italians with
whom most Americans could more easily identify, would make discovery
of unpunished atrocities a political liability in a way inconceivable
in the German system. Now that's very long sentence, but there is
nothing in it I would be unprepared to defend with citations from
respected historians of the Second World War and it does compare both
the Waffen-SS and the USMC in terms which are not particularly
flattering to either. There are hard and ugly historical truths about
the US, its policies, even its military, just as there are hard and
ugly truths about all human societies particularly where violence is
involved. I have no problem with people pointing these truths out,
although I think that such truths are sometimes told rather
myopically, as if such could not be said in plenitude of any great
power.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] =?iso-8859-1?q?Litarba:_Libanios_et_l'histoire_du_IVe_si=E8cle?=
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:39:20 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Litarba: Libanios et l'histoire du IVe si�cle
[Litarba: Libanios and the history of the fourth century]":

http://perso.club-internet.fr/plmaloss/

This site, created by Pierre-Louis Malosse (Instructor in Greek, Univ.
P. Val�ry), is an outstanding resource for late antique history and
philosophy, including a bibliography on the fourth-century philosopher
Libanios of Antioch, a bibliography of links on late antiquity, an
index of prominent figures in late antique history, and a collection
of articles and translations by Malosse (whose dissertation on
Libanios' Speech LIX is simply brilliant). The site is available in
French and Spanish.

Valete. Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election proposal
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:50:33 -0700

Salve, Diana -

My turn to be in a "poor connectivity while busy with personal things"
scenario, but I saw an important point slide by:

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 12:38:43AM +0200, Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Salve A Apollonius Cordus,
>
> <I am told that political factions exist here, and I see no reason not to
> believe it. If in order to be a
> <member of a faction one needs to know about it, then I am not one; if,
> however, one can be in a <faction unawares, then for all I know I may be in
> all of them!
>
> The New international Webster's Student Dictionary defines 'faction' as
> follows :
> "A number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique."

Really? My Webster's says:

2. A party, in political society, combined or acting in
union, in opposition to the government, or state; --
usually applied to a minority, but it may be applied to a
majority; a combination or clique of partisans of any
kind, acting for their own interests, especially if
greedy, clamorous, and reckless of the common good.

As a second reference, the Wordnet dictionary has:

faction
n 1: a clique that seeks power usually through intrigue [syn: {cabal},
{junta}, {junto}, {camarilla}]
2: a dissenting clique [syn: {sect}]

> I would very politely and very respectfully like to say that according to
> the definition, the Cohors Consulis is a faction and so you are in one --not
> that I think that is a bad thing at all.

And I would have to disagree with your definition, whether you think
it's a bad thing or not. The wording in any of the above, whether "in
opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
Everything changes, nothing perishes.
-- Ovid, "Metamorphoses"


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election proposal
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:32:50 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus C. Minucio Scaevolae salutem dicit.

Salve, C. Minuci.

> And I would have to disagree with your definition, whether you think
> it's a bad thing or not. The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.

"Faction" does have some prejorative meanings in English (as did
factio in Latin; in fact factio carried rather more prejorative a
semantic field than "faction" does in English). However, I'm not
certain what other term to use which objectively describes the
situation. C. Fabius ran for consul on a platform and was elected on
that basis. I would not serve in the cohors of someone with whom I
fundamentally disagreed on any major matter of public policy and I
would hazard the guess -- since neither of you have given me the
slightest reason to suspect that you say or do things political in
which you do not believe -- that neither would you or A. Apollonius.
To my mind it isn't unreasonable for someone to characterise A.
Apollonius or any other member of the cohors as being in the faction
of the senior consul by virtue of his choice of public service among
the consul's advisors unless he indicates that he serves under
specific restrictions of allegiance above and beyond what loyalty to
NR and personal honour require. I'm not trying to be difficult, but
what would you call a group of people who share common beliefs and a
common approach to public policy and collectively seek to implement
those beliefs while serving in government, if not a faction? I happen
to think that factions in that sense are the things that make
governance possible and are nothing to despise, but if you haave a
more appropriate term, I'd like to know it.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:46:08 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 9:25:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, spqr753@msn.com
writes:

> On another Roman history web site someone had the nerve to put Nazi SS
> troop and US Marines in the same sentence, implying they were one and the
> same . As the son of a WWII Marine I look him to task and ripped him a
> now
> A___ hole.
>

Well, they were both elite troops, with high elan, able to defeat a larger
number of foes. So in that, the statement is correct.

Fabius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election proposal
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:53:40 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 11:10:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@callahans.org writes:

> The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.
>

Except that is not the Roman definition of a faction, which if you research
in Oxford Classical Dictionary, corresponds closer to the Tribune's stated
definition. We are Romans recreating Roman politics are we not? Your definition
is correct in modern usage.
However to say that the cohors is not a faction, is quite absurd. You
fulfill all the Roman requirements completely.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: [ReligioRomana] Feast
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 04:01:05 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 11:21:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
anubis8569@yahoo.com writes:

> 1.Feast of Fors Fontuna(Lady Luck)
>
Q. Fabius Maximus SPD

Salvete

We had a small gathering of Fabi tonight to honor the goddess, my personal
patron.
We had bread, fowl, grapes, dates, and red wine to wash it all down.
However it is shame that more Fabi do not live in LA so that they could
partake.
However we drank a toast to all our gensmates, where ever they were.

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 02:03:50 -0700 (PDT)

The more thoughtless people on the left have a habit
of parroting "Facist", "Nazi", "SS", and
"Stormtrooper" as perjortive terms to make a political
point (Much like the thoughtless on the right parrot
"Communist") and that context is the one you are most
likely to run across.

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 9:25:28 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time, spqr753@msn.com
> writes:
>
>
> > On another Roman history web site someone had the
> nerve to put Nazi SS
> > troop and US Marines in the same sentence,
> implying they were one and the
> > same . As the son of a WWII Marine I look him
> to task and ripped him a
> > now
> > A___ hole.
> >
>
> Well, they were both elite troops, with high elan,
> able to defeat a larger
> number of foes. So in that, the statement is
> correct.
>
> Fabius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman citizenship
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:38:43 +0100 (BST)

Salve Diana Moravia,

> Honestly I needed a break
> from reading so many
> electoral reform emails :-p

But I thought that this was what you wanted and asked
for ;-)

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] news about the temple of Magna MAter
From:	"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:50:08 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

this is the report by Illustrus Marcus Iulius Perusianus, Legatus in
Provincia Italia and my assistant, about the last news about the
famous project of Restoration of the Temple of Magna Mater in Rome.
They are good news and a good start-line to
discuss how the project must grow.
Please, read this little report and give me your opinion.
I'm sending this report to every higher Magistrates and Istitutions
of Nova Roma.
I would like to have several suggestions about the continuing of the
project.

In the same time I'm developing the new website of the Project (I
hope to have the help of Prof. Pensabene, Director Archeologist of
the Palatine).

+++++++++++++++++++

Last week, on June 12, I met Professor Patrizio Pensabene at the
"Facolt� di Lettere e Filosofia" (Division of Italian Language and
Philosophy), University of Rome "La Sapienza". Professor Pensabene
heads the Greek-Roman archaeological section of the "Dipartimento di
Scienze Storiche Archeologiche e Antropologiche dell'Antichit�"
(Department of Ancient Historical Archeaological and Antropological
Sciences).

I was so fortunate to meet this person, with no doubt the best we
could contact regarding the Magna Mater temple, being that He has
been excavating for the past 25 years on the south-west part of the
Palatine hill, Rome.
Some months back, studying about the MM temple, I had found on net,
many references to him. Also, in my previous meeting with
Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma (Organism manager of all the
ancient monuments in Rome), it was suggested to contact him for any
kind of technical information about the temple of Cybele. Infact,
among all the monuments he dug in the past years, this temple is
what he considers the more important and full of meanings due to
its placement and connection to the foundation of Rome.

We spent nearly forty minutes talking about what's going on the
Palatine (a new campaign from 23/6 to 11/7 for his students) and a
possible exposition to show what he discovered in all these years.
Then I introduced him NR and he told me he had already visited our
site, having a good impression and being interested in some sort of
cooperation.
I told him about my previous meeting with head of the Archeological
area of Palatine hill and Roman Forum, D.ssa Irene Iacopi. While he
agreed that for a monetary donation we're following a good path, he
also warned us for the bureaucracy and the great expense we could
meet and with the small return we could earn giving money for
restoration on materials.
In fact, with no doubt we couldn't restore the structure of the
temple as this kind of work need amount of money more than 100,000
euros. The option of a little restoration on materials and/or
remains (amphoras, pottery...) are much less expensive but would be
very limited in public acknowledgement of NR due to lack of public
interest in these things.
Professor Pensabene gave us several suggestions about how to spend
our money better.
His ideas (and his estimated costs):

1) 5.000-7.000 euros
Major universities publish twice or more a year, a scientific
journal targeted mainly to academics. The cost for each one (to be
printed and acquired by likely almost any University in the world)
is aproximately 15.000 euros. They are very valuable and high-
detailed books.
If we contribute one third to one half the publication cost (for one
dedicated to the Temple of Magna Mater), Nova roma will be
acknolodged with a blurb saying "published thanks to the
contribution of Nova Roma", etc...

2) 9.000-12.000 euros
This amount would provide for a scholarship, what in Italy we call a
"borsa di studio", with means to pay a student in accordance with
Rome University (who could be a student among Pensabene's) for one
year to study and produce a book about an argument (say again,
temple of MM) or an exposition to be hold at the end of the
academic year. Also, this student could become a member of Nova Roma
so that he could be constantly informed about our needs about MM
topic (and vice versa).

3) photo exposition (????? euros)
while an exposition with phisical relics and material need money to
cover transports and insurance, a photographic one don't. Costs
wouldn't be so high if we find a structure and a sponsor. He also
thought about making it in the USA, as most of NR citizens are
there, because it's much easier to find there sponsors
(i.e. "Istituto per la Cultura Italiana in NYC" - Institute for the
Italian Culture, in New York City, or some Universities), and also
because a lot of Cybele' statues are in USA museums.
A photographic expositions about "Cybele in Rome" and/or "Cybele in
the States" would be his idea. The costs, not counting renting
material, structures, pictures, will be for the person studying for
one year (see above), for the Professor and another help to go there
and held the exposition, but NR would be the MAIN sponsor.
Unfortunately in Italy, I must admit taht the likehood
that "Soprintendenza ai beni archeologici" (Organism manager of the
ruins) or "Comune di Roma" (Rome city hall) would allow an
organization like ours to be among the sponsors, is rather minute.
The photo exposition calls for raising a lot of money, and will
require quite a bit of worf over a long period!

It is my personal opinion that we would be better to follow
Professor's advice and adopt one of these three ideas. Although ir
seems that the Professor and his students will personally benefit
from these ideas, Nova ROma will benefit with recognition and to be
better known to the public.

Perhaps we are unable to contribute to a direct restoration of the MM
structure but we can certainly aid in greater public awareness
through our contributions towards education of this particular
temple via student scholarships, photo exhibitions, etc.

MARCVS IVLIVS PERVSIANVS

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Valete
Fr. Apulus Caesar
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione - the discussion
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:54:40 +0100 (BST)

Salve Consul,

> I have seriously considered the risk
> that any group that
> see themselves as a factio could get the impression
> that they would
> risk to be shut out for positions in elections using
> the Fabian
> system.

The concern is not so much that certain factions will
be 'shut out' as you put it, but rather that one
faction (currently yours, amice) will be able to
'dominate'. This will not be healthy for the future of
Nova Roma, in my opinion.

> Still I can't
> see that You have been able to show that the Fabian
> law have any
> distinct risks to lead to such problems. On the
> contrary! What do You
> say?

I say that you and your colleagues have not been able
to convince me that the Fabian system will not lead to
such problems either. The nature of statistics is that
we could both produce countless examples that could
'prove' our argument one way or another, and as such
this is probably not the best way to proceed. I join
others in calling for thorough user testing of any
system of electoral reform before voting so that we
may all rest assured that such flaws do not exist.

> When it comes to computer tests, such will be
> executed soon, with the
> programming code being pubilic and possible to
> check, use and improve
> by everyone.

Excellent. Please believe that I do not raise concerns
such as this for the sake of it. Like yourself, I
agree that some form of electoral reform is necessary.
And truly, I want to be convinced that my assertions
are unfounded so that I may lend my own support to
your proposals.

> Now I must sleep.

Sleep tight, amice.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:58:07 +0100 (BST)

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

> Is they any need to deal with this proposed lex now
> or can we wait until the census is over and we have
> real number to deal with?

Unfortunately, the census is not till the latter part
of the year which will leave us with insufficient time
to test, discuss, vote and adopt any electoral reform
proposal before the elections in November.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] news about the temple of Magna MAter
From:	Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:04:24 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

> this is the report by Illustrus Marcus Iulius Perusianus, Legatus in
> Provincia Italia and my assistant, about the last news about the
> famous project of Restoration of the Temple of Magna Mater in Rome.

quite a nice beginning, and, imho, what should be tried in every Provincia in order to
get recognition, especially from scholars. In a world where funding is unfortunately
getting limited for historical research, any contribution will be welcome by desperate
scholars. There is surely here a role for NR to play.

Valete,

Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Propraetor Galliae

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Edictum Provincia Britannia
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:17:36 +0100 (BST)

Ex Officio Propraetoris Britanniae.

Edictum Propraetoricium concerning the provincial
administration of Britannia.

I. Citizen Aulus Apollonius Cordus is hereby appointed
legatus of regio Britannia Inferior.

II. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given on June 24th, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintillianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman citizenship
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:44:18 +0200

Salve D Iunius Silanus,

Ok, this time I didn't mistake you for D Iunius Palladius :-)

DMA <> Honestly I needed a break from reading so many electoral reform
emails :-p

DIS <But I thought that this was what you wanted and asked for ;-)

I did ask for it, but as it is said 'be careful what you wish for :-))
<joke!> Honestly I am glad to see so many responses and given in such
detail. I admit that I am not an intellectual when it comes to ancient Roman
politics or Nova Roman politics, but because of that I am paying attention 5
times more than everyone else :-) Nova Roma continues to be an excellent
learning experience for me, as I hope it is for many other citizens.

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman citizenship
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:57:40 +0100 (BST)

Salve Diana Moravia,

> Ok, this time I didn't mistake you for D Iunius
> Palladius :-)

Haha...out of all the things that could possibly
offend me, being mistaken for Palladius certainly
isn't one of them.

> I did ask for it, but as it is said 'be careful what
> you wish for :-))

Yes, a real Frankensteins monster. Its always good to
see orderly and sensible debate on an issue though,
particularly one as important as this.

> Nova Roma
> continues to be an excellent
> learning experience for me, as I hope it is for many
> other citizens.

Ditto. One of the reasons I love NR so much is that I
genuinely learn something new every day.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election proposal
From:	"Gaia Fabia Livia" <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:59:44 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus wrote:
> C. Fabius ran for consul on a platform and was elected on
> that basis. I would not serve in the cohors of someone with whom I
> fundamentally disagreed on any major matter of public policy and I
> would hazard the guess -- since neither of you have given me the
> slightest reason to suspect that you say or do things political in
> which you do not believe -- that neither would you or A. Apollonius.
> To my mind it isn't unreasonable for someone to characterise A.
> Apollonius or any other member of the cohors as being in the faction
> of the senior consul by virtue of his choice of public service among
> the consul's advisors unless he indicates that he serves under
> specific restrictions of allegiance above and beyond what loyalty to
> NR and personal honour require.

While this discussion has not explicitly mentioned me, I'm assuming
that Scaurus' comments should be understood as his views generally on
anyone's service in a cohort, so I feel I should respond as much as
anyone else just to make my position clear.

You are right that I won't do anything I don't agree with, nor say
anything I don't believe. However this does not mean I feel bound to
agree with everything the Consul says, although I understand that
according to my oath it is better to disagree privately! I have not
checked with the Consul whether we agree on all matters of policy
which could possibly arise, and if he believes (as Scaurus seems to)
that agreeing to serve in the Cohors Consularis is a tacit agreement
to accept his every view without question I will tender my resignation
immediately as this is not my understanding of the post.

I dislike party politics immensely, and even informal 'factions' don't
sit too well with me. I make my own decision on every point of
policy, and if I agree with the Consul's proposal (as happens to be
the case in the electoral reform debate we are currently having) then
that is most fortunate and I will stand here before you all and argue
for it. But I am not a trained debater and have no practise in
putting forward points of view I do not hold. I don't think I can
give a clearer indication of the way in which the Cohors Consularis
works than to state in no uncertain terms that if the Consul changes
his position on electoral reform to something which I consider would
be a less good system - and I will consider it, as I am considering
every proposal made in this discussion at present - I will continue to
argue in favour of the system we are currently debating. Likewise if
a citizen suggests something which I consider to be a genuine
improvement to the proposal, I will give my support to this and advise
the Consul of the fact.

As ever,

Gaia Fabia Livia
(a member of no factions)


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:27:17 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to L. Quintius Constantius and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> V.B.4: "In the case of a vote on a lex, a 'simple
> majority' is hereby defined as 'one half of the
> number of centuries casting votes, plus one,
> fractions being rounded down'. A century in which no
> voters cast 'yes' votes shall not be counted toward
> this total."
...
> I would remark at this point that I am generally in
> favor of this proposal, I think the idea of using
> approval voting in the centuries for magistrates is
a
> good idea, and will make for better mandates for the
> magistrates. However, I see this as provision for
> the counting of votes on leges as fatally flawed,
> and if that language remains in the final proposal I
> would have to vote against this proposal.

This section of the law seems to have been subject to
a clerical error, for which, since I was responsible
for typing up the relevant section of the draft, I
must take responsibility.

I shall ask the Consul to remove the word 'yes' from
V.B.4 before he calls for a vote upon the bill.

Thank you for your support and attention to detail.
:)

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Temple of Magna Mater
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:37:02 -0400

On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 05:58 AM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

> It is my personal opinion that we would be better to follow
> Professor's advice and adopt one of these three ideas. Although ir
> seems that the Professor and his students will personally benefit
> from these ideas, Nova ROma will benefit with recognition and to be
> better known to the public.

Thank you for your research and information, Marcus Iulius! I believe
the option I like best, and also the one that is probably most in
keeping with our resources, is contributing toward a book or journal.
Did the professor have any suggestions for a specific project that
might benefit from our help?

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] CM Scaevola's definition of faction
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:29:12 +0200

Salve Caius Minucius Scaevola,

DMA's definition of a faction
"A number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique."

CMS's definition of faction:
<Really? My Webster's says:
"A party, in political society, combined or acting in union, in opposition
to the government, or state; -- usually applied to a minority, but it may be
applied to a majority; a combination or clique of partisans of any kind,
acting for their own interests, especially if greedy, clamorous, and
reckless of the common good." (snip) "seeks power through intrigue",

CMS:
<And I would have to disagree with your definition, whether you think
<it's a bad thing or not. The wording in any of the above, whether "in
<opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
<power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
<here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.

Huh??? Uhhh, I hate to tell you this but you are disagreeing with yourself,
since *you* are the one who posted that rather nasty definition of a faction
in reference to the CC-- not me! But a nice try at getting everyone
confused into thinking that I slandered the entire Cohors Consulis....

I said that a faction as defined in *my?* dictionary was not a bad thing: "A
number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique." Obviously we have
different versions of Webster's.

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Temple of Magna Mater
From:	"Marcus Iulius Perusianus" <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:04:15 -0000

M IVL PERVSIANVS PATRICIAE CASSIAE SPD

You're welcome, Patricia! The professor said NR could choose, as main
sponsor for a journal, among some editions almost ready to be
published in next months/years. One of this could interest the
Cybele's temple. He is favorable impressed that we adopted this
monument (his favorite among all the others within his "own"
archeological area). So a study on this topic (or the very nearby
area) is often among his department journals.

On the other hand, if we choose the scholarship option, then, we'll
be able to name the project.

vale
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Cassia <pcassia@n...>
wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 05:58 AM, Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> wrote:
>
> > It is my personal opinion that we would be better to follow
> > Professor's advice and adopt one of these three ideas. Although ir
> > seems that the Professor and his students will personally benefit
> > from these ideas, Nova ROma will benefit with recognition and to
be
> > better known to the public.
>
> Thank you for your research and information, Marcus Iulius! I
believe
> the option I like best, and also the one that is probably most in
> keeping with our resources, is contributing toward a book or
journal.
> Did the professor have any suggestions for a specific project that
> might benefit from our help?
>
>
> -----
> Patricia Cassia
> Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
> Nova Roma . pcassia@n...


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: CM Scaevola's definition of faction
From:	Kristoffer From <from@darkeye.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:12:00 +0200

Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> I said that a faction as defined in
> *my?* dictionary was not a bad thing:
> "A number of persons combined for a
> common cause; a clique." Obviously we
> have different versions of Webster's.

Salve, Diana Moravia Aventina.

I checked up the word in my own Webster's, third international
unabridged, just for fun. It said "A party, combination, or clique (as
within a state, government or other association) often contentious,
self-seeking, or reckless of the common good."

The negative connotations of the word seem quite prevalent in both the
dictionary definitions and in the minds of most citizens. So even if the
term is valid, as it just refers to a group of people, it carries with
it some "bad blood", so another less offensive term should be used for
the sake of concordia. Maybe "colleagues"? Since the cohors is really
just a bunch of citizens working together to help the consul in his
administrative duties, describing it as a workplace is quite accurate.

Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Factions
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:31:18 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

Just a brief word on this, since I've been mentioned.

My understanding of the word 'factio' in Latin is in
line with that of Iulius Scaurus and contrary to that
of Senator Fabius Maximus; that is to say, I
understand it to be a word that a Roman would use to
disparage a group.

Iulius Scaurus is equally correct in saying that it is
very hard to think of an appropriate substitute. In
the days before formal political parties, the word
'party' was exactly right, but now an institution
which I dislike has sadly hi-jacked and perverted a
word that I like, and I concede that it would not be
appropriate here.

I shall continue to search for the right word. As for
the thing itself, I agree that I currently make common
cause with the other members of the Consular Cohort
for the purpose of helping the Senior Consul - and
indeed the Junior, for whom we are currently doing a
little clerical work on the side - make improvements
to the state and society.

It is also true that I get on well with my colleagues
and my employer, though I should work with them even
were that not so. I would not necessarily vote for
them all fo magistracies - I should want to hear their
policies first - and I would not refrain from
disagreeing with them in public were it in the public
interest for me to do so.

Attempting to identify the allegiances and formations
of individuals in politics is a useful pursuit, and
can add to one's understanding of politics present and
past. But, as some scholars have found who have tried
to impose too rigid a framework of party lines upon
Late Republican history, such attempts can be
deceptive.

Usually when I appear in this Forum arguing in favour
of a policy it is one of the Consul's policies, and
naturally I appear then to be a partisan of the
Consul. But I also work for Praetor Salix Astur, who
may or may not agree with the Consul, and, as of today
(for which I shall express my thanks shortly), for
Governor Iunius Silanus, who as we have seen has some
reservations about the Consul's current proposal. My
colleague in the Praetor's cohort is Iulius Scaurus,
with whom I get on just as well as I do with my other
colleagues, and who has put forward an idea for an
alternative to the Consul's proposal. What are we to
make of this? Am I in several parties or factions? Or
is there a single large group which includes both
supporters and critics of the current proposal? Or
perhaps I am a renegade and a double-agent. :)

I am content to be identified as being in a faction if
people find such identification useful, though I would
prefer a more neutral word. It is important, however,
that we do not assume that a group of people working
toward a common goal is the same as a group of people
bound together by unbreakable ties of loyalty and
obliged to support each other whatever the
circumstance and whatever their personal views. If I
find myself often in disagreement with eminent
citizens like Senators Sinicius Drusus, Fabius Maximus
and Iunius Palladius over my employer's actions, I
choose to believe that this is because we hold
different policies and views, and not because they are
bound in a mutual pact to oppose the Senior Consul in
whatever he does and I am obliged to defend the same!
If the former is what is meant by a faction, then it
is a shame to use that word for it, but it is a fine
thing to be in; if the latter, then I should want no
part of any faction, and I hope all would do the same.

Okay, it wasn't brief after all. :)

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:25:19 -0000

Salve Quintus,
LOL, I always appreciate your advice.
I wasn't talking of myself alone.
SOme of my postings at first glance could and did initially seem to
upset people but I have noticed this with other postings I have read.
I've learned to grow a thicker skin and feel it beneath me to reply
in kind but to keep an open mind and be understanding.
I know I can't expect everyone to do the same but it may be a benefit
if even one more person thinks first and shoots later.
In the short time I've been posting I have learned much from various
sources more knowledgeable than myself and I appreciate it.
I do like it here and am enjoying myself.

I find nothing wrong with constructive criticism (I just wish I would
re-read my postings before sending for typo's and my spelling sucks)
only the idiot thinks they know it all and doesn't open their mind to
new teaching.
Thanks again as always and remember:

Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat.
It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels comfortable
> giving
> > an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for fear of being
> > ridiculed or ostracised.
> > I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg different
> opinions
> > and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as some of you
have
> > already done, thank you).
> > I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would be a bore
but
> > some people seem so caught up in themselves that it becomes an
> > extremely personal assault.
> > I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we have a
> community
> > (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied outlook on a
number
> of
> > issues that can make for fantastically wonderful conversations.
> >
> > Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione--- a Question
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:44:12 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular Q. Fabius
Maximus and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> But I wasn't making any disagreement to the system.
> It will work. No question. It is not just
> historically enough for my and many other peoples
> tastes.

I suspect at this point we might as well stop. I
accept that for some people any system which is less
historical will always seem inferior to one which is
more historical.

For me, a system which has all the advantages of the
historical system, none of the disadvantages, and some
extra advanatages as well is prferable by a long
chalk.

> But, if I need to make one constructive criticism
> which you seem to crave, it needs to be rewritten by
> one person. Right now it reads like it was written
> by a committee, and badly written at that.

The reason for this is probably that the text is
substantially the same as the Cornelian-Octavian law
except where the electoral system has been changed. I
think if you read only the segments which are
different from the Cornelian-Octavian law you'll find
that they are fairly uniform, for we all checked them
thoroughly for grammar, punctuation, syntax and
general clarity.

I personally would not be inclined to re-write the
rest of the law to achieve stylistic unity, for this
would seem an unnecessary slight to the drafters of
the Cornelian-Octavian law. If, however, citizens
would like this to be done, then I encourage them to
identify the member of the Consul's staff who they
feel has the clearest and most pleasant prose style
and ask him or her to do it! :)

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:43:48 -0000

Salve, L. Sicinius Drusus

Actually, no, not specifically. I'm sorry if you thought it was
you. Maybe there are times, such as you cited, to take someone down
a peg but that is a personal preference. I wouldn't presume to tell
anyone how to reply to such as that.
I just thought that it would be decent Roman behavior if not decent
human behavior to take the high road and at least "at first" give
someone the benefit of the doubt. Maybe what was written was taken
out of context or meant jokingly or like myself on occasion, just ill
informed and needing to be corrected. It is hard sometimes to know
how something was said when it is put in writing - emotion and voice
tone just doesn't carry over well without good side notes, lol.

I do appreciate your reply and the fact that you thought I meant you
and didn't come back at me pistols blaring is VERY much appreciated.
This is the type of dialogue that expresses my sentiments.
Thank you again and Vale

> I Suspose you are talking about the contempt I showed
> to a poster yesterday.
>
> This person jumped in with insulting language like
> "baby killer" directed at myself and a large portion
> of our citizens who happen to be vetrans of active
> members of the US Military, posted a pack of lies that
> a minor ammount of research away from sites that only
> post the tripe he wannts to beleave, and flat out
> refused to persue an area of research suggested by
> another person.
>
> If someone comes on this forum posting slanders about
> Pagans being "Devil Worshipers", or the "Kike"
> Conspiricy, or the inferoity of "Niggers", I doubt
> that most of us would be expected to treat it as a
> mere difference of opinion. Yet people who have served
> in the United States Armed Forces are expected to
> accept the worst slanders as mere difference of
> opinion.
>
> --- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
> > Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
> > I think some people in togas are plotting against
> > me.
> >
> > I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in
> > many replies to
> > comments.
> > People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or
> > condemn others point
> > of view without really getting a chance to find out
> > if they are
> > deserving. Especially when we really don't know
> > eachother well.
> > I've always found it prudent to feel someone out and
> > talk to them
> > first to make sure and even then, if a person wishes
> > to be an idiot,
> > so be it, it isn't my place to tell them so but try
> > to enlighten them.
> >
> > Beginnings are a delicate time and great allowences
> > should be made
> > for mutual understanding.
> >
> > Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels
> > comfortable giving
> > an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for
> > fear of being
> > ridiculed or ostracised.
> > I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg
> > different opinions
> > and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as
> > some of you have
> > already done, thank you).
> > I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would
> > be a bore but
> > some people seem so caught up in themselves that it
> > becomes an
> > extremely personal assault.
> > I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we
> > have a community
> > (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied
> > outlook on a number of
> > issues that can make for fantastically wonderful
> > conversations.
> >
> > Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:00:30 -0000

Salve, M Flavius Aurelius
Though you may feel this is off topic I still thank you for your
contribution.
Manners and edicate for civilized people as the Romans are, should
not be thought of as off topic though, maybe yes?
You may have meant the other topic that was referred to in your post,
I am not positive.
Please don't hold bad spelling against me (or others) as I am a
terrible speller though don't consider myself not well read; just a
bad habit. I thank all Divine forces for spell check which we do not
have on this site and I am too lazy (a worse habit) to write in MS
Word then paste here. I also type too fast for my keyboard and some
letter get dropped off. Not re-reading (lazy again) prevents a
double check. Good spelling does not necessarily show a high degree
of intelligence either.
I neither wish to finger point or single out anyone which is why I
keep these comments general. It wasn't meant to identify any one
person or group but to suggest consideration of your fellow Nova
Romans prior to commenting.
People screw up, make mistakes and may need it pointed out.
Aggresive pointing only makes people defensive and aggresive in
return.

To end this on a lighter note:
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam
possit materiari?
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck
wood?
Hope you enjoyed that, makes me laugh everytime.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "M Flavius Aurelius"
<marcus.flavius@b...> wrote:
> Drusus,
>
> Actually, the post referred to certain equipment as "baby killer".
>
> While I am not wishing to perpetuate this incredibly irrelevant
offtopic
> discussion, I do believe that the record should be accurate.
>
> I would also suggest that posters to this list who wish to display
their
> superiority over other posters try learning to spell. At one stage,
someone
> managed to attempt to insult others on the list by calling them
> "intellectuals", but their spelling of that word was appalling. I
personally
> reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling, but found later I
was wrong.
> There is nothing that destroys one's credibility in a debate that
> demonstrating that one is illiterate.
>
> M Flavius Aurelius
>
>SNIP


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizenship too easy
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:09:53 -0000

Salve Marcus,
Good point.
I have been avoiding the political arena until I am more familiar but
as a New Citizen (or so I hope - you'll understand in a minute) I may
have some beneficial information on this topic.
I applied for citizenship a week or two ago and was admitted the same
day.
I found out later that I still needed to apply to my Matriarch for
admittance.
I sent an e-mail ans was contacted a few days later asking for some
personal information in an informal application like manner which I
provided.
I am waiting to hear back but have been taking the part as an active
citizen in the meantime.
I could become dissillusioned with Nova Roma and choose to leave or
be rejected yet.

A thought on both parts may be a formalized application for
citizenship and a trial period in Nova Roma before being accepted.
If any of these items have already been discussed, my appologies as I
am coming in to this late.
I hope this was helpful.
Vale
M Ambrosius Belisarius

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Flavius Aurelius
<marcus.flavius@b...> wrote:
> What is wrong with making citizenship obtainable? What's wrong with
citizens
> who sign up, then find NR does not deliver what they were seeking,
and so
> they wander away.
>
> If this happens, it says to me there is something lacking in Nova
Roma, not
> with the citizenship base....
>
> M Flavius Aurelius


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: CM Scaevola's definition of faction
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:18:03 +0200

Salve Titus Octavius,

< Maybe "colleagues"? Since the cohors is really
<just a bunch of citizens working together to help the consul in his
<administrative duties, describing it as a workplace is quite accurate.

"Colleagues" works for me.
I just wanted to make it clear that I was not referring to the rather nasty
definition that C Minius Scaevola found. When I said 'faction' I was
thinking only of the one that is written in my dictionary :-)

Thanks & vale!
Diana Moravia


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizenship too easy
From:	politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:11:14 -0700 (PDT)

--- qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> <snip>

> We had this discussion back in the Consulship of
> Decius Iunius and Lucius
> Cornelius.
> Why are people here?
> If we must entertain them constantly then we aren't
> doing what we set out to
> do, and if we
> educate them in Roman ways, is that enough? It is a
> vexing question. For
> myself my door is always open for questions about
> Roman politics, Religio, law
> and the military.
>
>
I think what must be kept in mind is that Nova
Roma is attempting to re-create a civilization, and
doing it on an international scale at that.
Civilization contain many things, its needs laws, a
population (men, women, children, livestock, pets,
etc). Even deviants. Does the populace need
"constant" entertainment? No. But in my opinion if
there is no entertainment, there is no civilization.
Just like in the absence of the other things you
mentioned, I don't think there would be a
civilization.
While all of us have studied or are at least
enamoured of Rome and her civilization, we are also
current products of our macronational environments,
with all the emotional, intellectual, and spiritual
biases that come with it.

Lucius Quintius Constantius (Lacus Magni)

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Simulations, Mock Elections &c.
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:19:52 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I think the question of simulated elections is
beginning to pall. No one, as far as I've heard, has
any problems with testing any proposed or actual
systems. The Consul is, indeed, currently preparing to
run computer simulations in order to test the Fabian
system for faults.

Some have called for a mock election using real voters
on the basis that a computer simulation will not be
accurate. This is a misconception, and should be
abandoned. If you want to know who would win a real
election in Nova Roma, then obviously a computer can't
tell you, because it doesn't know who people support.
But this is not what we need to know. We need to know
which system works best at representing the will of
the voters and returning the requisite number of
candidates. To find that out, it doesn't matter who
supports whom. It makes no difference at all.

Think about it carefully. If you run two mock
elections, one after the other, with the same
candidates and the same system, the results will be
pretty much the same. All this will tell you is that
the system works, or doesn't, under those specific
circumstances. However many times you do that same
mock election, the results will be the same until
voters get bored and start voting for people they
don't like in order to entertain themselves.

With a computer simulation, you can change the number
of voters, the number of candidates, the popularity of
the candidates, the number of centuries, the number of
voters in a century, and anything else you can think
of. Every different simulations gives you a different
result, and tests a different aspect of the system in
question. A computer simulation does not need to take
into account what real people really think. It needs
to take into account *everything* that *anyone* could
conceivably think. There are only so many things a
voter can do. A voter can vote, or not vote; can vote
yes, or no; can vote for A, or for B; and so on. A
computer can simulate every possibility.

That said, if anyone still has a distrust of computer
simulations or an unfounded belief that a computer
cannot adequately test an electoral system, there are
several options. One is that one can sit down on one's
own and think of possible situations which might
occur, and see what happens when these are put through
the system. I've done this; Iunius Silanus has done
this; Rogator Cassius Calvus has done this; we did it
in the Law & Politics Office when we wrote the
Handbook. Anyone can do it.

The second option is to organize one's own mock
election. I've explained before how to do this, and
I'll explain again. You announce the candidates, and
the rules for the election (how many people are you
allowed to vote for, &c.). The you invite everyone who
wants to vote to e-mail you privately with their
votes. You count them, you do the relevant
calculations, you announce the result. Well done.

The third option is to ask the Consul or his staff
what would happen under the Fabian system in a given
situation. If we have time, we'll think about it and
tell you; if not, we'll encourage you to do it
yourself.

Some have suggested that the Rogators could re-run the
last election using the various different systems.
Well, first of all, why should they? Two Rogators have
said they think the Fabian system works fine; the rest
haven't said there's anything wrong with it. Why
should they do all the work of staging a mock-election
when we could do it ourselves using the method I
outlined above, especially if they're satisfied that
it works without having a mock-election?

Secondly and more importantly, it can't be done. Even
if they have all the votes stored, the Fabian system
and the Iulian system both use different ballot-papers
from the ones which were used in the last election,
and it would be impossible for the Rogators to know
what people would have voted if they'd had a different
ballot-paper. Moreover, as Iulius Scaurus has pointed
out, the Iulian system is impossible to simulate using
votes which have already been cast because such a
simulation doesn't take into account the sequential
aspect of the system.

Anyone who wants a mock-election can organize one. If
people continue now to call for one to be organized by
other people, you must conclude either that they are
too lazy to do it themselves or that they do not
really want to test the Fabian system because they
know it will work and they will be deprived of their
only argument. For myself, I hope no one here is
guilty of either, and I look forward to my hope being
confirmed by those who want mock-elections organizing
them and those who do not want them refraining from
demanding them.

Thanks for your time,

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:12:40 -0000

LOL, yes I noticed a few, lol.
Thank you, I had not thought about that and it can explain some of
the postings between friends.
Vale

SNIP>
> Ah, you noticed. Well, many of these people are old "friends" and
have been
> doing this
> since NR's founding. It is one of the unique things that makes
this micro
> nation so Roman.
>
> Welcome to Nova Roma.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:16:42 -0000

Salve Quintus
Ahhhh, so there is hope for me too
LOL.
I don't aspire to be a physicist but it helps to know I'm in good
company as a poor speller - ok, terrible speller.
SNIP

> >
> Salve Marce,
>
> I had a discussion on another club and forum a while back. In many
> cases we are in and out of the forum all day while doing many other
> things. Sometimes we respond in a hurry like a wham, bam thank you
> m'am style before too many other new posts bury our points so we do
> not always concentrate on the spelling. If this were an Ivy League
> debate, a university thesis or a job resume, then many of us would
> have a dictionary at our side and proof read our text at least
three
> times over before submission. I get no degree or wage from NR so I
am
> not often that extremely careful.
>
> Finally, highly intelligent people from nuclear physicists to
medical
> doctors I know are the most sloppy, slovenly writers and spellers I
> have met. I guess their peers call that being eccentric. Also we
need
> to accept new forms of shorthand coming into cyberspace. I will not
> be the first to accept them but nor shall I be the last.
>
> C U later,
>
> respectfully,
>
> Quintus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:46:54 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> More importantly, you said of the Fabian system:
>
> "After careful study I do believe that the
methodology
> employed would produce an accurate reflection of the
> will of the voters".
>
> Would you be prepared to say the same of the Iulian
> system?
>
> The basic counting methodology in the Iulian is
about
> the same as the methodology now employed, just a few
> minor tweeks such as multiple choice on the part of
> the voter and a more regimented voting
> schedule. The current system does produce an
accurate
> reflection of the will of the voters, and so would
the
> Iulian.

First of all, my thanks for taking the time to answer
my qustions.

If I may follow up on your answer above: how is it
that a system which is quite likely to deprive many
citizens of their chance to vote at all can produce an
accurate reflection of the will of the voters?

Cordus

=====
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:03:10 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Iulius Scaurus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> the sketch of a voting system which would closely
> approximate that of the historical
> Comitia Centuriata given the exigencies of the
> internet which I appended to my discussion of the
> historicity of the proposed Lex Fabia
> was more an exercise in thinking-aloud than a fully
> thought-out electoral proposal.

This was clear from the context, and I for one took it
as such. It was clearly not written as a legislative
bill. I was alarmed, therefore, when a number of
citizens began to clamour for its immediate
implementation, when such a thing would clearly have
been impossible. It is more to these than to you
yourself that my comments on your system have been
directed.

If I may, however, I'd lie to pick you up on one
point:

> The Comitia Centuriata _should_ be skewed to the
first
> two classes...
...
> In a more modern context, a skewing of power in the
> Comitia Centuriata to the first and second classes
> provides a real incentive for citizens to become
more
> active in NR, since their century points (which are
a
> proxy for level of participation) determine the
class
> and century into which they assigned.

The Centuriate Assembly is currently and would, under
the Fabian system, remain skewed in favour of the
first two classes. This is achieved by placing
citizens with more century points into smaller
centuries, in which they therefore have greater power
to influence the vote of their century, because their
vote is less diluted than those of citizens with fewer
century points, who are placed in larger centuries.

Your proposal, if I may call it such, would not
restore an absent skew but would double one which is
already adequately present. If each citizen in a
first-class century had a more weighty vote than his
fellow-citizen in a second-class century and, in
addition, each first-class century had a greater
weight in the Assembly as a whole than its
corresponding second-class century, the system would
be overwhelmingly weighted in favour of citizens with
more century points; far more, surely, than was the
case in the ancient republic!

I am as supportive as you are of the weighting of
centuries in favour of more active citizens; but this
already occurs, and in a more efficient way than a
direct reproduction of the historical system would
produce.

Cordus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:07:23 -0400

G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS wrote:

> I have no idea what the chap to whom you allude wrote, but I can
> easily imagine a perfectly reasonable sentence containing a reference
> to both the Waffen-SS and US Marine Corps which, while flattering to
> neither, would be historically accurate. [...]

Thank you Gaius Iulius. As a Marine, and a student of Marine Corps
history, I think you got it exactly right. I particularly thank
you for pointing out that the leadership of our Corps did everything
possible to stop atrocities and to punish those guilty of them,
both in the 2nd World War and in other instances. While the training,
discipline, and valor of the Waffen SS were comparable to ours, they
lacked that institutional commitment to moral leadership. (Though
I know that some of their NCO's and officers were in fact fine and
morally conscientious soldiers.)

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Provincia Britannia
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:07:25 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> I. Citizen Aulus Apollonius Cordus is hereby
> appointed legatus of regio Britannia Inferior.

I'm honoured and grateful, and I look forward to
working with you and our compatriots to further the
cause of Nova Roma in Britain and Britain in Nova
Roma, if I can get away with such a phrase!

Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
who shouldn't, and which one...

Again, many thanks,

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:42:23 -0000

Salve Aule Apolloni

First, lest you think otherwise, I, and I would think, all of Nova
Roma appreciate all of the obvious hard work that was put in on the
Fabian election reform lex. You have also been doing an admirable
job promoting the advantages of the proposal.

When I read the following, I felt I had to comment:

>>If I may follow up on your answer above: how is it that a system
which is quite likely to deprive many citizens of their chance to
vote at all can produce an accurate reflection of the will of the
voters?

Cordus<

It all depends on what one's objective is. As Lucius Sicinius has
pointed out, the founders felt the objective was to recreate the
Roman Republic. The Julian "proposal" does that, and deprives some
citizens of their chance to vote, just as did the system of our
ancient forebearers. If recreation is your objective, the Julian
proposal is superior because it is historic.

If on the otherhand, one's objective is to create something new,
perhaps a mix of Rome and the modern world, one might prefer a
voting system that was "fair" to all; however, un-Roman.

There has also been some talk of factions. If there are indeed
factions in NR, I believe the above defines two of them:
Recreationists, and those who want something that is a hybrid.

Both points of view may have merit, but Nova Roma, as evidenced by
our Constituion quoted by Lucius Sicinius, was intended to be a
Recreation.

With respect.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:35:45 -0000

Salve Domina Diana,
Thanks so much for you reply, it means quite a bit.
Quintus is wonderful, diplomatic, informative and reassuring - I
value his opinion too.
I had an e-mail from her and got a good feeling from the get go from
her name - we have mutual literary preferences, lol.
I appreciate your advice and explanation.
I can always turn a deaf ear and ignore it.

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.

Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:
> Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius,
>
> > Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels comfortable
> <giving an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for fear of
being
> > ridiculed or ostracised.
>
> Nah, don't worry about it. That's how we have fun here ;-)
> Very often, I am also uncomfortable giving an opinion, but I do
anyway. I
> admit my opinions don't always come out as graceful as I'd like,
which may
> cause someone replying to feel a bit uncomfortable in return :-p
Personal
> meetings are so much easier!
>
> I am sure that we are *nothing* as compared to the bickering that
went on in
> ancient Rome, so when things get tough, at least we get that much
closer
> :-))) I often wonder which ones of us (if any) would survive in the
> political arena of ancient Rome.... <Diana starts daydreaming>
>
> Anyway, welcome to Nova Roma! I don't know if you've had the chance
to meet
> her, but your Materfamilias, Merlinia Ambrosia is a real sweetie. I
was
> lucky to have her as my roommate at the Roman Days. Besides that I
would
> have probably not even gone if it weren't for her giving me a lift
from New
> Jersey to Maryland.
>
> And my friend Quintus Lanius Paulinus said:
>
> < We have all taken some flak once and a while on this list.
> And given it--let's be honest now!
>
> <3) Let me remind you of the words of my old friend Oscar Wilde; "
The
> <only thing more horrible than being talked about is NOT BEING
TALKED
> <ABOUT AT ALL!!!!"
>
> So true! Who wants to be a wallflower anyway?
>
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@lucent.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:36:17 -0000

Salvete Omnes et Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi, Tite
> Maxenti, Gai Porsenni, et Urania Calidia,

I am Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of Hibernia and a new
citizen of Nova Roma.

Fellow Hibernians, I am curious: Why is that, on the Album Gentium,
only two inhabitants of IE (Hibernia) are listed? I was thus under
the impression that there was no settlement of Nova Roman families in
Hibernia. It seems that the lists on the main site regarding Gens
and Cives are not complete.

It is good to know, however, that we have a developing Nova Roman
community here, in Hibernia, that, together, we can bring the Via
Romana to this dark isle, and, that, hopefully, we will eventually
achieve provincial status.

Valete,

Titus Maxentius Verus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi, Tite
> Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!
>
> In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
> joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start of
> the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
> friendship!
> Valete,
> Urania Calidia Antonina
>
> n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
wrote:
> > Salve
> >
> > --- me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu: > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> > [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
> >
> >
> > According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> > Hibernia:
> >
> > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
> >
> > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> > Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> > Titus Octavius Nevinus
> > Titus Maxentius Verus
> > Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
> >
> >
> > Vale
> > Marcus Arminius
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> _
> > Yahoo! Mail
> > Mais espa�o, mais seguran�a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
> antiv�rus, prote��o contra spam.
> > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / Marines
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:48:51 -0000

Salvete omnes,

While no system is perfect, we should be wise not bite the hand that
feeds us. The US and her marines are our allies and would not think
twice about coming to our aid and saving us from being slaughtered;
unless of course the US allies continue biting their hand. I kind of
have the gut feeling that the US may shut things down, pull out and
thumb their noses at the rest of the world who'll be fending for
themselves someday. Geez, for example some Serbian directional
drillers told me this winter that as soon as other conficts take
attention away from their area and foreign troops leave they will
finish off the 700 year old business they started! Depressing but at
least they're honest.

I'll try to put my "off topic" ideas in Roman perspective from now on.
During the "Pax Romana", trade was great, roads were excellent, pony
expresses could get a document from Londium to Rome in 6 days, the
pirates that plagued the Mediterranean were crushed and there was
that great stablilty which is still talked about today as well as on
my eletronic signature. I wonder how many off those fat rich
merchants and middle class people while counting their cestaries in
the forums and markets, were howling and complaining in the markets,
about how hard done by they were from the evil Roman legions. Ah,
surs sounds like familiar chords, does it not?

Regards,

Quintus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS wrote:
>
> > I have no idea what the chap to whom you allude wrote, but I can
> > easily imagine a perfectly reasonable sentence containing a
reference
> > to both the Waffen-SS and US Marine Corps which, while flattering
to
> > neither, would be historically accurate. [...]
>
> Thank you Gaius Iulius. As a Marine, and a student of Marine Corps
> history, I think you got it exactly right. I particularly thank
> you for pointing out that the leadership of our Corps did everything
> possible to stop atrocities and to punish those guilty of them,
> both in the 2nd World War and in other instances. While the
training,
> discipline, and valor of the Waffen SS were comparable to ours, they
> lacked that institutional commitment to moral leadership. (Though
> I know that some of their NCO's and officers were in fact fine and
> morally conscientious soldiers.)
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:00:50 -0000

Salve Tite,

As I mentioned to Urania the other day, that does not seem to be an
active gens. Hopefully the'rll be some shuffling and rearranging of
gens after the census.

As for history, Rome knew of Hibernia and traded with the natives.
There was a plan to invade Hibernia; Agricola thought he could do it
with 1 or 2 legions but other problems came up and the plan was
shelved indefinitely. A few Irish chietains sought sanctuary in Roman
Britain after losing internal quarrels in Hibernia. Anyway based on
that little history, I'm sure some Roman traders, scouts or diplomats
got over there. If anyone has more information on Hibernia and Rome
we'd love to know!

Regards,

Quintus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Maxentius Verus"
<jgrady@l...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes et Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi,
Tite
> > Maxenti, Gai Porsenni, et Urania Calidia,
>
> I am Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of Hibernia and a new
> citizen of Nova Roma.
>
> Fellow Hibernians, I am curious: Why is that, on the Album
Gentium,
> only two inhabitants of IE (Hibernia) are listed? I was thus under
> the impression that there was no settlement of Nova Roman families
in
> Hibernia. It seems that the lists on the main site regarding Gens
> and Cives are not complete.
>
> It is good to know, however, that we have a developing Nova Roman
> community here, in Hibernia, that, together, we can bring the Via
> Romana to this dark isle, and, that, hopefully, we will eventually
> achieve provincial status.
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Maxentius Verus
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi,
Tite
> > Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!
> >
> > In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
> > joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start
of
> > the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
> > friendship!
> > Valete,
> > Urania Calidia Antonina
> >
> > n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
> wrote:
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > --- me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu: > -----Original
> > > Message-----
> > > [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> > > [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
> > >
> > >
> > > According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> > > Hibernia:
> > >
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
> > >
> > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> > > Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> > > Titus Octavius Nevinus
> > > Titus Maxentius Verus
> > > Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale
> > > Marcus Arminius
> > >
> > >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> > _
> > > Yahoo! Mail
> > > Mais espa�o, mais seguran�a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
> > antiv�rus, prote��o contra spam.
> > > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Congratulations Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus, Amice and
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:03:03 +0200

Salve Amice!

Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
position as Legate in Britannia! Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus I
also offer You congratulations for getting such a good and competent
Legatus and assistant!

Hereby I wish Provincia Britannia a good summer and a bright future
in Nova Roma! ;-)

>A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
>all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
>
>> I. Citizen Aulus Apollonius Cordus is hereby
>> appointed legatus of regio Britannia Inferior.
>
>I'm honoured and grateful, and I look forward to
>working with you and our compatriots to further the
>cause of Nova Roma in Britain and Britain in Nova
>Roma, if I can get away with such a phrase!
>
>Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
>who shouldn't, and which one...
>
>Again, many thanks,
>
>Cordus

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
Civis Romanus sum
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:42:57 -0000

Salve Urania,
Please don't hang yourself, I'll try to improve my spelling, lol.

In a conversation between Ovid and his mentor:
Nullo metro compositum est.

Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema.

It doesn't rhyme.
I don't care. If it doesn't rhyme, it isn't a poem.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> This is Nova Roma; the home of Cicero, Ovid, Lucretius!
> Citizens I will hang myself upon my palla if we cannot pick up
> our stylii and write with verve and literacy.
> Vale,
> Urania Calidia Antonina
>
> In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...>
> wrote:
> > Some people value content, others are more shallow and
> > can't see past style.
> >
> > "I Have no respect for a man who can only spell a word
> > one way"
> > Mark Twain
> >
>SNIP


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione--- a Question
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:55:53 -0400

Salve Aule Apolloni,

> I personally would not be inclined to re-write the
> rest of the law to achieve stylistic unity, for this
> would seem an unnecessary slight to the drafters of
> the Cornelian-Octavian law. If, however, citizens
> would like this to be done, then I encourage them to
> identify the member of the Consul's staff who they
> feel has the clearest and most pleasant prose style
> and ask him or her to do it! :)

I know this will not be me, as I've been told, numerously, that my legal writing makes rocket science seem extremely easy! :)

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

"Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:55:05 -0700 (PDT)

--- "A. Apollonius Cordus" <cordus@strategikon.org>
wrote:

<snip>

> I shall ask the Consul to remove the word 'yes' from
> V.B.4 before he calls for a vote upon the bill.
>
> Thank you for your support and attention to detail.
> :)
>
>

I admire your taking such quick action on this
matter and for taking responsibility for a clerical
error. As I stated previously, I did not believe that
this happened intentionally on the part of the Senior
Consul or any of his staff.

Lucius Quintius Constantius (Lacus Magni)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:04:53 -0000

Salve,
Table the spelling issue for a minute or add to it grammar and the
many various verb tenses when conjugating.
Being well spoken is har enough without adding to it being well
written.
I applaude those who can do both.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 5:08:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@y... writes:
>
>
> > Ah, but people you speak of were unaware of the
> > concept of "correct" spelling
>
> Actually for years people spelled "phonetically" Especially in old
English.
> And if you study graffiti in Pompeii or Duras Europa you will find
that not
> every
> one wrote like Tullius or Iulius.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:06:01 -0000

I know people so good at typing they only need two fingers, lol.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"
<richmal@a...> wrote:
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Flavius Aurelius
> <marcus.flavius@b...> wrote:
> > Quintus,
> >
> > There is a difference between shorthand and illiteracy :-)
> >
> > As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of "intellectuals" was
> ironic. But was
> > disappointed to find it wasn't.
> >
> > M Flavius Aurelius
>
> Salve,
>
> Not everyone here is a touch typist such as myself. My sister can
> write a letter in long hand that is flawless, but put her on a
> keyboard and all semblence of education goes out the window. Also
> not everyone in Nova Roma has English as their first language so
one
> must make allowances for interesting spelling and syntax.
>
> Vale,
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:11:46 -0000

Salve Gneus,
Terpsichore is the muse of lyric poetry and dance and Calliope is the
Muse of Epic poetry. There is no Muse if literacy per se but there
is hope that Jupiter will father another, lol.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> rory12001 <rory12001@y...> writes:
>
> > I offer
> > libations to the Muse of Literacy (who would that be?)
>
> There's no single Muse of Literacy, since most of the Muses are
> patronesses of writers of one sort or other. Probably the best
> choice for what you intend would be Polyhymnia, the Muse of
> Sacred Poetry. She is the patroness of those writers who have
> gained immortal fame with their writing.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.eliki.com/portals/fantasy/circle/polyhymnia.html
>
> For more about her.
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:13:57 -0000

P.S.
I thought Polymnia was the Muse of mime? Please correct me if I am
wron - there are 9 of them.
A mime is a terrible thing to waste!

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> rory12001 <rory12001@y...> writes:
>
> > I offer
> > libations to the Muse of Literacy (who would that be?)
>
> There's no single Muse of Literacy, since most of the Muses are
> patronesses of writers of one sort or other. Probably the best
> choice for what you intend would be Polyhymnia, the Muse of
> Sacred Poetry. She is the patroness of those writers who have
> gained immortal fame with their writing.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.eliki.com/portals/fantasy/circle/polyhymnia.html
>
> For more about her.
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@lucent.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:14:01 -0000

Salvete Omnes; Salvete Urania Calidia, Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi,
Tite Octavi, et Gai Porsenni,

This is Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of Hibernia and a new
citizen of Nova Roma. It is brilliant to note that, instead of being
a lone Nova Roman isolated on this dark isle, there is actually a
colony of us. Hopefully, we will be more successful in spreading the
Via Romana to the barbarians than were the courageous but unfortunate
Romans in that one brief outpost on our shore many centuries before.
This time, I pray, the indigenous Celts will welcome our superior
civilisation.

(If not, well, then, we will conquer them.)

Valete,

Titus Maxentius Verus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi, Tite
> Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!
>
> In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
> joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start of
> the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
> friendship!
> Valete,
> Urania Calidia Antonina
>
> n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
wrote:
> > Salve
> >
> > --- me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu: > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> > [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
> >
> >
> > According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> > Hibernia:
> >
> > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
> >
> > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> > Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> > Titus Octavius Nevinus
> > Titus Maxentius Verus
> > Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
> >
> >
> > Vale
> > Marcus Arminius
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> _
> > Yahoo! Mail
> > Mais espa�o, mais seguran�a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
> antiv�rus, prote��o contra spam.
> > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: news about the temple of Magna MAter
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:28:36 -0000

Grazie mio caro amico nuovo!
Spero di verderlo quando arrivo a Roma, se possibile.
Trans:
I hope to see it when I get to Rome.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Franciscus Apulus Caesar"
<sacro_barese_impero@l...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> this is the report by Illustrus Marcus Iulius Perusianus, Legatus
in
> Provincia Italia and my assistant, about the last news about the
> famous project of Restoration of the Temple of Magna Mater in Rome.
> They are good news and a good start-line to
> discuss how the project must grow.
> Please, read this little report and give me your opinion.
> I'm sending this report to every higher Magistrates and Istitutions
> of Nova Roma.
> I would like to have several suggestions about the continuing of
the
> project.
>
> In the same time I'm developing the new website of the Project (I
> hope to have the help of Prof. Pensabene, Director Archeologist of
> the Palatine).
>
>SNIP


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: [ReligioRomana] Feast
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:22:02 -0000

Salute!
Though not in L.A. nor a Fabi, I never neglect a God or Goddess.
Blessings.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 11:21:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> anubis8569@y... writes:
>
>
> > 1.Feast of Fors Fontuna(Lady Luck)
> >
> Q. Fabius Maximus SPD
>
> Salvete
>
> We had a small gathering of Fabi tonight to honor the goddess, my
personal
> patron.
> We had bread, fowl, grapes, dates, and red wine to wash it all down.
> However it is shame that more Fabi do not live in LA so that they
could
> partake.
> However we drank a toast to all our gensmates, where ever they
were.
>
> Valete
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Congratulations Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus,
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:17:17 -0400

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> writes:

> Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
> position as Legate in Britannia!

Yes! A thousand times yes! Cordus is one of our best and
brightest. I'm very pleased to see him recognized with this
appointment.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Election proposal
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:32:30 -0700

Salve, Gaius Iulius Scaurus:

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 07:32:50AM -0000, G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus C. Minucio Scaevolae salutem dicit.
>
> Salve, C. Minuci.
>
> > And I would have to disagree with your definition, whether you think
> > it's a bad thing or not. The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> > opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> > power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> > here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.
>
> "Faction" does have some prejorative meanings in English (as did
> factio in Latin; in fact factio carried rather more prejorative a
> semantic field than "faction" does in English). However, I'm not
> certain what other term to use which objectively describes the
> situation. C. Fabius ran for consul on a platform and was elected on
> that basis. I would not serve in the cohors of someone with whom I
> fundamentally disagreed on any major matter of public policy and I
> would hazard the guess -- since neither of you have given me the
> slightest reason to suspect that you say or do things political in
> which you do not believe -- that neither would you or A. Apollonius.

You're certainly correct in my case; I believe this is also true of
Cordus. However, I would hesitate to apply the above to everyone on the
Consul's staff as a blanket condition - I simply don't know everyone
that well. As the saying goes, EPID.

<http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5011/acronyms.html#EPID>

> To my mind it isn't unreasonable for someone to characterise A.
> Apollonius or any other member of the cohors as being in the faction
> of the senior consul by virtue of his choice of public service among
> the consul's advisors unless he indicates that he serves under
> specific restrictions of allegiance above and beyond what loyalty to
> NR and personal honour require. I'm not trying to be difficult, but
> what would you call a group of people who share common beliefs and a
> common approach to public policy and collectively seek to implement
> those beliefs while serving in government, if not a faction? I happen
> to think that factions in that sense are the things that make
> governance possible and are nothing to despise, but if you haave a
> more appropriate term, I'd like to know it.

"Faction", to my mind, is specifically out - not because it's pejorative
/per se/ but because it's inaccurate: the central meaning it carries in
all the definitions I quoted is "minority party _not_ in power" or "in
opposition to the government". This is in direct opposition to part of
your own definition, above ("...while serving in government"). The
Cohors works for the Consul, and I think that can definitely be
described as being part of the government.

As to what term I would use to describe such a group, the answer would
have to be "it depends". If I was trying to describe it functionally,
I'd say "staff" or "cohors". If I was trying to describe it in political
terms as you suggest, I would be in a false position no matter what term
I used, since I don't know everyone's political alignment within this
group - motivations for being on the Consul's staff probably have as
many variations as there are staff members, and complete political
agreement is neither required nor looked for (as far as I can tell.)
What the Consul requires of us is good effort put forth on specific
tasks that are assigned; your political beliefs are your own, what
matters is the quality of work that you produce. Those with radically
different beliefs would probably not have even been invited to join -
although _that_ can be an interesting option as well - but this still
leaves a very broad field for variations.

The Boni are a faction here, because they distinguish themselves by
their political "colors" - even if they're not organized as any
functional group such as the Cohors; functionality, in this case, does
not require an absolute alignment of political beliefs, nor does the
presence of such an alignment indicate a functional grouping. These two
things simply do not map onto each other here (although there's no
denying that they can, to the point of overlapping completely.)

Besides the above inaccuracy, I cannot apply "faction" in good
conscience to a group whose members have not either stated their beliefs
or acted on them in such a way as to make them obvious. People who are
trying to create political targets to be shot at - I do not include you
in this, erm, faction - will ignore that little nuance and do what they
will. If you can define a need (other than that one) for describing the
Cohors in political terms, I'd be very interested in knowing what it is.

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Qui statuit aliquid parte inaudita altera, aequum licet statuerit.
One who passes sentence on something without having heard the other part isn't
just, even if the sentence is just.
-- Seneca Philosophus, Medea. Cf. "audietur et altera pars."


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election proposal
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:35:49 -0700

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 03:53:40AM -0400, qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 11:10:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> ben@callahans.org writes:
>
> > The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> > opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> > power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> > here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.
>
> Except that is not the Roman definition of a faction, which if you research
> in Oxford Classical Dictionary, corresponds closer to the Tribune's stated
> definition. We are Romans recreating Roman politics are we not? Your definition
> is correct in modern usage.

I don't have the OCD at hand, but we are not Ancient Romans speaking
Latin with its original meanings. On this list, the common language is
English, and the meanings in common usage are the modern ones.

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Imperium et libertas.
Empire and liberty.
-- Benjamin Disraeli; from Cicero and Tacitus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman citizenship
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:37:30 -0700

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 10:38:43AM +0100, Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
> Salve Diana Moravia,
>
> > Honestly I needed a break
> > from reading so many
> > electoral reform emails :-p
>
> But I thought that this was what you wanted and asked
> for ;-)

Ouch! Have a pinch of snuff, Diana. :)

Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Non amo te, Sabidi, nec possum dicere quare:
hoc tantum possum dicere, non amo te.
I do not like you, Sabid, but I can't say why:
I can only say this, I do not like you.
-- Martialis, "Epigrammaton liber"


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] CM Scaevola's definition of faction
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:51:58 -0700

Salve, Diana -

On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 02:29:12PM +0200, Diana Moravia Aventina wrote:
> Salve Caius Minucius Scaevola,
>
> DMA's definition of a faction
> "A number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique."
>
> CMS's definition of faction:

Nope. Not mine - Webster's.

> <Really? My Webster's says:
> "A party, in political society, combined or acting in union, in opposition
> to the government, or state; -- usually applied to a minority, but it may be
> applied to a majority; a combination or clique of partisans of any kind,
> acting for their own interests, especially if greedy, clamorous, and
> reckless of the common good." (snip) "seeks power through intrigue",
>
> CMS:
> <And I would have to disagree with your definition, whether you think
> <it's a bad thing or not. The wording in any of the above, whether "in
> <opposition to the government", "reckless of the common good", or "seeks
> <power through intrigue", however applicable it may be to several people
> <here, is false with regard to Cordus and his membership in the CC.
>
> Huh??? Uhhh, I hate to tell you this but you are disagreeing with yourself,
> since *you* are the one who posted that rather nasty definition of a faction
> in reference to the CC-- not me! But a nice try at getting everyone
> confused into thinking that I slandered the entire Cohors Consulis....

Whoa, whoa - wind down the rhetoric machine, please. I wasn't accusing
you of slandering anyone, or trying to get anyone confused; what I said,
since it obviously was not clear to you, is that the meaning of
"faction" is not what you think it is, at least not in common usage, and
I disagree with your application of the term. Is that any clearer?

> I said that a faction as defined in *my?* dictionary was not a bad thing: "A
> number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique." Obviously we have
> different versions of Webster's.

Yup. I think that mine represents the more common perception of the
term; G. Iulius Scaurus, at least, seems to agree though he believes
that the term can be stretched to cover the Cohors. This is about
nothing more than definitions. I think you know that if I wanted to be
disparaging of you or was trying to say that you slandered someone, I
would make it clear as day and leave no doubt whatsoever. <wink>

Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ars longa, vita brevis.
Art is long, life is short.
-- Seneca, "De brevitate vitae"


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Collegia
From:	politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT)

I found this on a site that dealt with the
history of
corporations. I thought it was interesting in so
far
as it applies to the ancient Roman collegia.

I have been doing some research on the
collegia. I
know that some were little more than a funeral
benefit
society for their members, others had religious
motives, and still others were similar to trade
guilds.

If I remember correctly, Julius Caesar outlawed
the
collegia because they were dabbling too much in
politics. I know that the collegia existed in
the
time of Marcus Aurelius, but I'm not certain
about
when they were made legal once again.

Also, if someone could supply the text of the
legislation from Justinian's Code (hopefully with
an
English translation) that would be much
appreciated.
I would also like to hear the comments from our
ancient scholars on this list about the collegia
and
how they worked.

For those who want a short digression from the
election reform proposals.

-----------------------------------------------------
ANCIENT CORPORATIONS

Among the ancient Greeks a kind of association
called
etairia corresponded in its characteristics very
closely with the modern corporation. Solon is
said to
have encouraged the formation of such bodies, and
in
his legislation permitted them to be instituted
freely
and to engage in any transactions not contrary to
law.
The Roman prototype of the corporation as it came
into
existence under the common law of England, and
from
England was transplanted into America, was the
collegium. This kind of association, called also
corpus, was required to consist of at least three
persons (Dig., L, tit. xvi), and persons who had
regularly and legally constituted a collegium
were
said corpus habere (to have a body), i. e. to
have
been, as we say, duly incorporated. The persons
who
formed a collegium were called colleg? or
sodales. The
word collegium derived from con, "with", and
lego, "to
select", had the literal meaning of an
aggregation of
persons united in any office or for any common
purpose. In the later days of the Roman Republic
corporation was used in documents relating to
public
law in the same sense as collegium. The word
societas
seems to have been used as a term corresponding
to our
word partnership. A collegium possessed the legal
right of holding property in common. Its members
had a
common treasury and could sue and be sued by
their
syndicus or actor. According to the Roman law,
that
which was due to the collegium was not due to
individuals composing it; that which was an
indebtedness of the collegium was not the debt of
individuals. The property of the collegium was
liable
to be seized and sold for its debts. The term
universitas is used by the Roman law writers in
the
same sense as collegium. The application of
universitas to an academic or literary
institution is
first found in a Decretal of one of the popes
establishing a medieval university for the
teaching of
religion, literature, science, and the arts. A
collegium or universitas was, under the Roman
law,
managed by its officers and agents under
regulations
established by the corporate body itself, and
these
regulations might be such as were agreed upon by
the
members, subject only to the limitation that they
were
not contrary to the public law.

A lawfully constituted collegium was termed
legitimum.
Associations attempting to act as a collegium,
when
not duly authorized, were called collegia
illicita. It
seems that no particular Roman law defined the
mode in
which collegia were regularly to be formed. They
appear to have been formed by the voluntary
association of individuals according to some
general
legal authority. Some of these ancient Roman
corporations resembled the guilds of medieval
times,
such as the collegia fabrorum, collegia pistorum,
etc.; others were of a religious nature such as
the
collegia pontificum, augurum. According to Ulpian
a
universitas, though reduced to a single member,
was
still considered a universitas; for the remaining
member thereof possessed all the rights and
privileges
of the universitas, and used the name by which it
was
originally known. When a new member was taken
into a
collegium, he was said co-optari, and the members
of
an association into which he was introduced were
said,
with respect to him, recipere in collegium. The
chief
public corporation of ancient Rome was the
municipium.
Municipia possessed all of the characteristic
powers
of ordinary corporations together with the right
of
local government. It is stated by Plutarch that
corporations were introduced into the Roman
system of
legislation by Numa. That sovereign, upon his
accession to the throne, noted that great public
disorder existed in the city of Rome by reason of
the
contentions between the rival factions of Sabines
and
Romans; and for the purpose of protecting the
State
against tumult, divided each of these factions
into
many smaller ones by creating collegia for each
of the
professions and for each of the manual
occupations.
-------------------------------------------------------

Lucius Quintius Constantius (Lacus Magni)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:31:29 -0000

Thanks for the reference material Lucius.
I would like to check them out at some time.
I am reading the Dead Sea Scrolls translation but find it not too
entertaining though very informative.
There are many parrallels to Jesus but it isn't certain they are
speaking of him personally.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <politicog@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Another book that deals with this subject is Hiram Key: Pharaohs,
> Freemasons, and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus, by
> Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas. I cannot vouch for its
> scholarship however, since I haven't read it yet (will probably
pick
> up a copy at the local library tonight). But here's the Amazon
link
> for those that are so inclined:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
> /1931412758/qid=1056405424/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8380928-8303342?
> v=glance&s=books
>
>
> Lucius Quintius Constantius


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:22:45 -0000

Great Quote L. Sicinus, I have to write that one down, lol.
By the by,
Trying to display superiority kind of negates the fact of being
superior, no?
Superiority is gauged and reflected in a person, it doesn't need to
be displayed; it will be sensed.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Some people value content, others are more shallow and
> can't see past style.
>
> "I Have no respect for a man who can only spell a word
> one way"
> Mark Twain
>
> --- M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@b...>
> wrote:
> > Quintus,
> >
> > There is a difference between shorthand and
> > illiteracy :-)
> >
> > As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of
> > "intellectuals" was ironic. But was
> > disappointed to find it wasn't.
> >
> > M Flavius Aurelius
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
> > <mjk@d...>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:50 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor
> > spelling
> >
> >
> > > > I would also suggest that posters to this list
> > who wish to display
> > > their
> > > > superiority over other posters try learning to
> > spell. At one stage,
> > > someone
> > > > managed to attempt to insult others on the list
> > by calling them
> > > > "intellectuals", but their spelling of that word
> > was appalling. I
> > > personally
> > > > reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling,
> > but found later I
> > > was wrong.
> > > > There is nothing that destroys one's credibility
> > in a debate that
> > > > demonstrating that one is illiterate.
> > > >
> > > > M Flavius Aurelius
> > > >
>SNIP


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Provincia Britannia
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:15:16 -0000

Salve Aule Apolloni,

> I'm honoured and grateful, and I look forward to
> working with you and our compatriots to further the
> cause of Nova Roma in Britain and Britain in Nova
> Roma, if I can get away with such a phrase!

I'm glad to have you on board....you'll be an asset to the provincial team.

> Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
> who shouldn't, and which one...

As a legate, you should swear the standard oath as required of a magistrate.

Bene vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:17:49 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:
>
> If I may follow up on your answer above: how is it
> that a system which is quite likely to deprive many
> citizens of their chance to vote at all can produce an
> accurate reflection of the will of the voters?

The only way a the Iulian proposal deprives a citizen of the chance
to vote is if the individual citizen does not make the effort to
vote. The State offers the citizenry the chance to vote which is all
that it is required to do. Whether a person makes the effort to
spend a grand total of maybe 5 minutes out of the 1440 minutes in a
24 hour day is entirely up to the person. There may be cases where a
citizen here or there is completely unable to vote do to
circumstances beyond his/her control, but that could be said for ANY
electorial system. I believe that you said that since a tie
situation can occur in ANY electorial system, thus that invalidated a
tie situation as being a reasonable objection to the Fabian
Proposal. I submit by that by your own logic; that since your
objection is based on a situation that can occur in ANY electorial
system your objection is as equally invalid.

A thing that has been mentioned several times is the past is Grant
Applications. One of the items that any grant issuing agency will be
looking at is how well our system of governance conforms to the
historical model and Nova Roma's own mission statement. If I were
looking over a Nova Roman grant application and saw the Fabian
Proposal as the electorial method being employed, I would have to
sincerely question Nova Roma's adherance to its own mission
statement. However ,if I saw the Iulian Proposal as the electorial
methodology being used, there would be no reasonable doubt as to
whether Nova Roma adheres to its own mission statement at least in so
far as the electorial process is concerned.

I actually have no objection to either system, however the Iulian
Proposal is more likely to help Nova Roma eventually receive grant
monies, while the Fabian Proposal is going to hurt Nova Roma's
chances to receive grant monies. Therefore the Iulian Proposal makes
more economical sense in the long term than the Fabian.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Congratulations Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus, Amice and Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus, Amice!
From:	"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:22:49 -0000

Salve Consul,

> Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
> position as Legate in Britannia! Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus I
> also offer You congratulations for getting such a good and competent
> Legatus and assistant!

If he dedicates a fraction of the effort to provincia Britannia as he does
to doggedly defending the Fabian electoral reform proposal then we shall be
the busiest of provinces within months ;-)

Seriously, it is a pleasure to have him and I very much look forward to
working with him to further revive our provincia.

> Hereby I wish Provincia Britannia a good summer and a bright future
> in Nova Roma! ;-)

For that I am most grateful, amice. Thank you.

Bene vale,

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] ... Re: Proposed Lex Fabia ...
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:47:45 -0400

Lucius Equitius Quiritibus SPD

. Apollonius Cordus to C. Iulius Scaurus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> the sketch of a voting system which would closely
> approximate that of the historical
> Comitia Centuriata given the exigencies of the
> internet which I appended to my discussion of the
> historicity of the proposed Lex Fabia

<SNIP>
The Centuriate Assembly is currently and would, under
the Fabian system, remain skewed in favour of the
first two classes. This is achieved by placing
citizens with more century points into smaller
centuries, in which they therefore have greater power
to influence the vote of their century, because their
vote is less diluted than those of citizens with fewer
century points, who are placed in larger centuries.

L Equitius: You know, I've considered this in the past and I've questions. Since 'century points' are allotted for 'involvement' within Nova Roma and those most involved are placed into centuries together do they not 'cancel' each other? Also, (I'm not prone to lengthy posts) those who are in "lower" centuries more likely to be the only voter (especially a new citizen), or one of the few who actually vote, thus it may be they who actually have greater power for their vote. Were all citizens equally likely to vote this would not be the case, but considering the low voter turnout in every call to vote I believe this is a very real possibility.
Does anyone else think this may be true, and if so, what can/should be done?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Website address for the MTR
From:	GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:26:29 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes! Many of you have asked me if there
exists a website for Italy's foremost Roman Pagan
group known as the MTR (Movimento Tradizionale
Romano/Traditional Roman Movement)! Yes, you can
locate it at the website for their official review
magazine called "La Cittadella" at
http://www.lacittadella-mtr.com For those of you
who can read some Italian you should find this most
interesting! I would also like to point out due to
some comments I have read from a Nova Roma citizen
that the rites as used by the MTR, many of which I
myself passed on to Nova Roma are indeed "authentic!"
Many of which have been reconstructed from scholarly
sources and inline and according to the traditional
Roman Mos Maiorum! Valete! Frater GAIVS IVLIVS
IVLIANVS, PGI, Flamen Florealis, Sac. Nat.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] protest too
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:38:44 +0000

Salve consobrine Galerii, and thank you for the compliment.

I am afraid not many people are paying attention anylonger,
and I suspect aside from my own family and some friends nobody
read my post, and that goes for most in the list, and how can one blame
anybody. Did you see how many "messages" we had yesterday.
I counted 125. I had a day off and couldn't keep up with it, and
thank heavens and internet engineers for the delete button. And
here I protest to the moderators. This is a massage board and not
a chat room, and to those who'd disagree, don't be too sure, as some
of you have interesting and intelligent things to say and you will
not be heard because you will be drowned in the chat.

As to the proposal, it is necessary that we have new election laws. The
one we have does not work regardless of what anybody
says. 5 runnoffs and no winner is an absolute failure. As you
know, less than 100 citizen voted in the runoffs, and one cannot
blame the people for that. Our elections are like a game and
that's why people don't take it seriously. But I don't think we
need to wait til the census is done to have a new election law.
We already know how many citizens we have: 219 cives (taxpayers),
and the census will count the accensi, and the accensi don't count because
they can't vote, unless I misunderstood the law.

Vale

G. Galerius Peregrinator

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
Centuriatorum
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:22:09 -0400

Salve Well said dear cousin

and now a question if I may

Is they any need to deal with this proposed lex now or can we wait until the
census is over and we have real number to deal with?

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:43:37 -0000

Salvete Omnes et Tite;
Let us invite the legions to come! I for one call for an invasion.
Valete
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@l...>
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes; Salvete Urania Calidia, Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi,
> Tite Octavi, et Gai Porsenni,
>
> This is Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of Hibernia and a new
> citizen of Nova Roma. It is brilliant to note that, instead of
being
> a lone Nova Roman isolated on this dark isle, there is actually a
> colony of us. Hopefully, we will be more successful in spreading
the
> Via Romana to the barbarians than were the courageous but
unfortunate
> Romans in that one brief outpost on our shore many centuries
before.
> This time, I pray, the indigenous Celts will welcome our superior
> civilisation.
>
> (If not, well, then, we will conquer them.)
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Maxentius Verus
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...>
wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes, Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi, Tite Octavi,
Tite
> > Maxenti, Gai Porsenni: my noble countrymen I salute you!
> >
> > In gratitude to gracious Marcus Calidius Gracchus, I will be
> > joining the noble gens of Calidia, I hope this will be the start
of
> > the Hiberni of Nova Roma gathering together in mutuality and
> > friendship!
> > Valete,
> > Urania Calidia Antonina
> >
> > n Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Arminius Maior <marminius@y...>
> wrote:
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > --- me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu: > -----Original
> > > Message-----
> > > [..] I had no idea Hibernia had any citizens at all!
> > > [..] I wonder how many of us there are of us.
> > > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis.
> > >
> > >
> > > According to our Album Civium, there are 5 cives from
> > > Hibernia:
> > >
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
> > >
> > > Vibius Ambrosius Caesariensis
> > > Marcus Caldidius Gracchus
> > > Titus Octavius Nevinus
> > > Titus Maxentius Verus
> > > Gnaeus Porsennius Kaeso
> > >
> > >
> > > Vale
> > > Marcus Arminius
> > >
> > >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> > _
> > > Yahoo! Mail
> > > Mais espa�o, mais seguran�a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB,
> > antiv�rus, prote��o contra spam.
> > > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Congratulations Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus, Amice and Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus, Amice!
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:46:19 -0000

Congratulations Honorable Consul.

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet et consulus?
Is that a scroll in your toga, or are you just happy be Consul?

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
<christer.edling@t...> wrote:
> Salve Amice!
>
> Congratulations dear Honorable Aulus Apollonius Cordus to your
> position as Legate in Britannia! Illustrus Decimus Iunius Silanus I
> also offer You congratulations for getting such a good and
competent
> Legatus and assistant!
>
> Hereby I wish Provincia Britannia a good summer and a bright future
> in Nova Roma! ;-)
>
> >A. Apollonius Cordus to Governor D. Iunius Silanus and
> >all citizens and peregrines, greetings.
> >
> >> I. Citizen Aulus Apollonius Cordus is hereby
> >> appointed legatus of regio Britannia Inferior.
> >
> >I'm honoured and grateful, and I look forward to
> >working with you and our compatriots to further the
> >cause of Nova Roma in Britain and Britain in Nova
> >Roma, if I can get away with such a phrase!
> >
> >Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
> >who shouldn't, and which one...
> >
> >Again, many thanks,
> >
> >Cordus
>
> --
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Senior Consul et Senator
> Propraetor Thules
> Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
> Civis Romanus sum
> ************************************************
> Cohors Consulis CFQ
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
> Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Provinciae et Hibernia
From:	"Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@lucent.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:28:26 -0000

Salvete Omnes et Hiberni,

I noticed that the Province of Britannia comprises England, Wales,
Scotland, and Northern Ireland; Gallia comprises France, Belgium, and
the Netherlands; and Germania includes Switzerland and Austria as
well as Germany.

Would it not then be logical for Hibernia to become part of the Roman
province of Britannia? One can argue that the original provinces are
supposed to somewhat resemble the original provinces of Rome or be
super-Roman provinces that include as subprovinces original Roman
Provinces (for example, Helvetia being included as part of Germania);
and, thus, because Hibernia was not part of Rome, it cannot be
included in Britannia. But most of Scotland was not part of the
Roman Province of Britannia, nor was Northern Ireland; yet they are
both included in the Nova Roman province of Britannia. So, if both
Scotland and Northern Ireland are included in Britannia, why not
Hibernia?

And, if for various reasons, including Hibernian sensitivites due to
some of the events of more recent centuries, Hiberni do not want to
be part of Britannia, then should Northern Ireland not be included as
part of Hibernia instead of being part of Britannia?

Valete,

Titus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:15:54 -0400 (EDT)

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius;

Yes, there are some Christians here. My apologies for coming late on
the scene but I am "wading" through some 500 messages which deluged me
during my trip North.

Yes there are Chistians here, as I have said, but that does not mean in
my view, that I cannot be historically interested in Mythracism or in
any other religion. Just that I do not have to embrace tem if I respect
them.

I am willing to listen to "stories" of the conversion of Mythracism to
Christianity. I am not so foolish as to believe that the conversion did
not cost much in human suffering. A study of the Spanish Inquisition or
the Crusaders entrance into Jerusalem will certainly confirm that as
well as a thousand other totally brutal and senseless occurances in the
name of religion.

However, as others have said, I am unwilling to listen to a criticism of
my beliefs. I honor all for thier true beliefs and feelings until it
begins to impinge upon my own. As someone has said on this list the
line between historical recall and religious criticism is a knifeedge to
tred.

I am interested in Mythracism, and would like to know more about it. I
have carefully saved the weblinks furnished by the posters regarding the
study subject, and I intend to study them closely. Further, I should
like to have a list of three references for a Mythracism beginner which
will lead me to a further level of understanding.

One of my best friends in NR is a Bhuddist (sp??) and another is a
Pagan. I am familiar with both religions and I appreciate greatly the
beauty of the rites therein. However, in my personal world, I must take
a different road, for my religious needs.

I welcome your historical efforts in this and other areas, but I would
ask that your historical reviews would be couched in a language that was
not critical to my beliefs, In that way, I believe that we can share
the wealth of our historical knowledge in a fiendly and amicable way.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] ... Re: Proposed Lex Fabia ...
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:18:35 -0400

Lucius Equitius <vergil@starpower.net> writes:

[concerning membership in the centuries]

> You know, I've considered this in the past and I've questions.
> Since 'century points' are allotted for 'involvement' within Nova Roma and
> those most involved are placed into centuries together do they not 'cancel'
> each other?

If that were the case, then yes, they would. But if you look at
the actual centuries you'll see that each one contains a range of
the active citizens (except for the last century, with all of the
inactive in it.)

For example, if we examine the 1st century as it is currently
configured:

http://novaroma.org/bin/view/century?century=1

You're the first person in the first century, with your
truly amazing 186 century points. Second comes Titus
Horatius Atticus, with 45 century points. Then there's
Gnaeus Salix Galaicus with 35 century points, Lentulus
Cornelius Drusus with 30 points, and finally Ianus
Minicius Sparsus with 20 points. You're all Assidui,
but there's a range of accumulated century points there
in the first century.

You can examine the other centuries and you'll see the
same thing. Each of the centuries of the first class
has one "heavy hitter" with a stellar amount of century
points, and then a number of other Assidui who have fewer
century points. There's no single century in which you'll
find more than one person with over 100 century points.

What this *does* mean is that each one of the "heavy
hitters" has a huge influence over which way their
own century votes. To a pretty good approximation,
each one represents a controling interest in the way
that their century's vote is cast. But none of the
people who have done the most for Nova Roma are negated
by getting placed into the same century.

> Also, (I'm not prone to lengthy posts) those who are in "lower"
> centuries more likely to be the only voter

Nope. The lower centuries have more people in them, and the
only century with inactive (non tax paying) citizens is the
very last (189th) century. It is indeed a huge thing, with
some 1026 citizens currently assigned to it. But in the
Centuriate elections those 1026 folks get exactly one vote,
assuming any of them do vote.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election proposal
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:21:08 EDT

In a message dated 6/24/03 9:49:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ben@callahans.org writes:

> I don't have the OCD at hand, but we are not Ancient Romans speaking
> Latin with its original meanings. On this list, the common language is
> English, and the meanings in common usage are the modern ones.
>
Q Fabius Maximus
Salvete

Boy you are nimble! You must be a politico. That was an answer to an
interviewer. But, the fact still remains. You and your friends are the faction in
power at this current time. Deny it all you wish. We are being Roman, so we
follow Roman precepts, not modern ones. Otherwise why are we even here?

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] ... Re: Proposed Lex Fabia ...
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:27:00 -0400

A correction to what I just posted.

I wrote:
> Nope. The lower centuries have more people in them, and the
> only century with inactive (non tax paying) citizens is the
> very last (89th) century.

In fact, it turns out that many of the lower centuries do
contain Capiti Censi citizens who have remained active by
voting. It's the truly inactive citizens who are placed
into the 89th century.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Website address for the MTR
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:07:44 -0000

Thanks for the information.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
wrote:
> Salvete omnes! Many of you have asked me if there
> exists a website for Italy's foremost Roman Pagan
> group known as the MTR (Movimento Tradizionale
> Romano/Traditional Roman Movement)! Yes, you can
> locate it at the website for their official review
> magazine called "La Cittadella" at
> http://www.lacittadella-mtr.com For those of you
> who can read some Italian you should find this most
> interesting! I would also like to point out due to
> some comments I have read from a Nova Roma citizen
> that the rites as used by the MTR, many of which I
> myself passed on to Nova Roma are indeed "authentic!"
> Many of which have been reconstructed from scholarly
> sources and inline and according to the traditional
> Roman Mos Maiorum! Valete! Frater GAIVS IVLIVS
> IVLIANVS, PGI, Flamen Florealis, Sac. Nat.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"lucius_lucillus_catiline" <graymouser01@aol.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:05:55 -0000

Salve Quintus

There is suprisingly little hard evidence in the way of information
regarding Roman contact with Ireland. That there was contact can be
in little doubt - we know (as you mention) that the Romans knew the
Irish both as raiders and (particularly in south west Wales)as
settlers. I wrote a few papers on related topics while at Uni (where
my studies focused on the Celts) - I'll try to dig them out when I
have more time and get what info I can for you.

Vale

Lucius Lucillus Catiline

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Tite,
>
> As I mentioned to Urania the other day, that does not seem to be an
> active gens. Hopefully the'rll be some shuffling and rearranging of
> gens after the census.
>
> As for history, Rome knew of Hibernia and traded with the natives.
> There was a plan to invade Hibernia; Agricola thought he could do
it
> with 1 or 2 legions but other problems came up and the plan was
> shelved indefinitely. A few Irish chietains sought sanctuary in
Roman
> Britain after losing internal quarrels in Hibernia. Anyway based on
> that little history, I'm sure some Roman traders, scouts or
diplomats
> got over there. If anyone has more information on Hibernia and Rome
> we'd love to know!
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS" <cybernaut911@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:53:28 -0000

MARCVS CALIDIVS GRACCHVS TRIBVNO DIANAE MORAVIAE AVENTINAE S.P.D.

Salve Diana,

Your kind regards are much appreciated, as are those of my friend
and colleague QVINTVS LANIVS PAVLINVS. Yes time is indeed, a great
healer!

But how remiss of me! I see that belated congratulations are in
order, as I am delighted to note that you now hold the noble office
of TRIBVNVS PLEBIS.

I would ascribe particular value and importance to this office, as a
vital check and balance on our republican system of government, the
prudent use of INTERCESSIO is an important protection of the
people. Indeed, as you may know, I took the COGNOMEN 'GRACCHVS' in
honour of the famous GRACCHI brothers , particularly Ti. SEMPRONIVS
GRACCHVS.

But enough of politics! Diana, I should like to wish you every
success during your tenure as Tribune of the People. As VESTA, the
PENATES and LARES are with you in the home, so may great IVPPITER
aid you in public life.

I know this appointment means a heavy workload, and a lot of
learning , particularly of the LEGES but I know that you shall
approach it diligently and with professionalism, for the people of
Rome. The main thing though is to enjoy it!!

Talk to you soon,

Vale,

M. CALIDIVS GRACHHVS

TERRARVM DEA GENTIVMQVE ROMA CVI PAR EST NIHIL ET NIHIL SECVNDVM

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:
> Salve Marcus Calidius Gracchus!
>
> < May I also send my greetings to DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA for a
> < kindness that she showed me some time ago - Diana , you were
right
> < VENVS has smiled upon me!
>
> It's great to see you back! And I am *really* glad that things
are going
> well for you :-)
>
> Vale and talk to you again soon!
> Diana Moravia
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Past Legal Occasions
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:01:22 -0000

Hail Marcus,
Of course, a fair request.
If my comments about the church as an organization were taken
personally, my apologies; that didn't mean to say that the people who
follow that church are likewise of the same ilk and again, I was
unaware of any Nova Roma members who followed.
Xian bashing, while not proper, among a Pagan community is not
frowned upon either. Many Pagans still feel the hurt done them in
the past and continue to receive at the hands of the Organizations
but I hold no individual accountable for those crimes. Again, my
apologies.

I will provide whatever information I can to help in your research.
To many Westerners, a Buddhist is also a Pagan or Heathen, lol, but
not to me.
Just some information about myself to help you understand where I am
coming from:
I am Pagan though I was raised in the beginning (13 years)to be
catholic and I thank them for a firm belief in religion and the
concept of a Divine force in the Universe though because of that
upbringing and the certain truths I later learned from them, I
decided to leave them (more than 27 years ago).

As I said, I am by my definition Pagan but to explain:
I am Taoist and Strega (from Stregheria) and respect all the Eastern
Philosophies.
"Stregheria" or "The Old Religion", "La Vecchia", "La Vecchia
Religione" of Italy first began to form around the beliefs of early,
pre-Etruscan Italians. The mystery teachings and the magickal
practices were further developed and refined by the Etruscans, who
appeared in Italy around 1000 B.C.E., establishing the great Etruscan
Empire. The Etruscans were known historically for their great
magickal and mystical knowledge. With the rise of the Roman Empire,
other factors began to influence Italian religion.
Many Italians have Strega traditions in their families without even
knowing it. The way that most people don't know that December 25th
is the birthdate of Mithras and not Jesus.
Stregheria and Taoism are very complimentary in that one fulfills
philosophical, mind, body and spirit aspects and the other handles
holidays, Dieties and traditions.

Hope that wasn't too long winded but it can explain much between us.
As to Mithras:
Any search engine on the words Mithras, Mithraism, Albigensian will
reveal much information. The Albigensians came from Mithras
worshippers and were named for the area in Southern France where they
moved from Spain - known as the Cathars. They were nearly totally
destroyed (burned and tortured to death) by order of Pope Innocent
III, concerned with the growing influence of Catharism, and saw that
it threatened the authority of the Church as heresy - so began that
Crusade.
See:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/
http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/albigens
http://www.ku.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Period
s/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY5.TXT

Please let me know Publicly or Privately what you think about the
material.
We can discusses like two Roman citizens who have neither political
nor religious predispositions if you'd like; as a hypothetical or
research topic?

I come in after the weekend to find what I thought was a deluge, I
can't imagine what it would be like after a week.
Hope you had a prosperous trip.

SNIP
.> Yes, there are some Christians here. My apologies for coming late
on
> the scene but I am "wading" through some 500 messages which deluged
me
> during my trip North.
>
>SNIP


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Nova Roman citizenship
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:12:11 +0100 (BST)

Salve

> Ouch! Have a pinch of snuff, Diana. :)

I'm really not sure I should be doing this, but as its
in reply to one of my posts would you mind explaining
exactly what you mean?

Decimus Iunius Silanus

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Provincia Britannia
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:12:08 -0400

Sp. Postumius Aulo Apollonio Cordo Legato S.P.D.

Salve,

> Is there an oath? I get confused about who should and
> who shouldn't, and which one...

Yes there is. You are not an apparitor per the description in the Lex Vedia Apparitoria, therefore, you would be required to take the oath outlined in the Lex Iunia Iusiurando.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

"Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Provinciae et Hibernia
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:25:21 -0300 (ART)

Salvete,

--- Titus Maxentius Verus <jgrady@lucent.com>
escreveu: > Salvete Omnes et Hiberni,
>
> I noticed that the Province of Britannia comprises
> England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland; [..]
> Would it not then be logical for Hibernia to become
> part of the Roman province of Britannia? One can
> argue that [..]

M.Arminius: To say the truth, the NR documents that
mention the frontiers of Britannia are long time lost.
That is, we dont have anything that says exactly what
are the frontiers of half of our provinces, and our
Gubernatores generally follow the common sense. For
example, Alasca, Puerto Rico, Hawaii normally are
unofficially included in the nearest US province.

[..] So, if both
> Scotland and Northern Ireland are included in
> Britannia, why not Hibernia?

M.Arminius: For me, since the Hibernian cives prefer
to be included in Britannia, is a good idea! If it is
practical, both for Britannia and Hibernia, lets to
create a Provincia Britannia et Hibernia.

> And, if for various reasons, including Hibernian
> sensitivites due to some of the events of more
> recent centuries, Hiberni do not want to be part
> of Britannia, then should Northern Ireland not be
> included as part of Hibernia instead of being part
> of Britannia?

M.Arminius: Yes, there is another possibility. The
Senate of Nova Roma can create a Province Hibernia,
and since there are an assidui there, he can be the
first Propraetor. My suggestion is that the Hibernian
cives organizes themselves a bit, and send a petition
to our Senate and Consules.

> Valete,
> Titus

Valete
Marcus Arminius
Senator, Propraetor Brasiliae

_______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Mais espa�o, mais seguran�a e gratuito: caixa postal de 6MB, antiv�rus, prote��o contra spam.
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizenship too easy
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:31:00 -0400 (EDT)

Master Paulinus;

I am what my wife likes to call a " joiner." I have been pleased over
the years to join many organizations and they all demonstrate the resuls
that you mention. A few do the work and the rest excuse themselves. I
do not argue with the reasons, as I cannot, and as you say without the
numbers what use is the organization??

In answer to your question, it is my beief that if and when Nova Romans
get together the same thing will occur for a variety of reasons
--Health, Family, Vocation being the most valid ones.

I now belong to a grtoup which like NR s spread around a large area.
However, most of these people are just as interested as am in what we
do (Reenactment). They share equally in what needs o be done, they
routinely are aware and approving of letting a person do what he / she
can do, and after a few years together we have all grown to depend upon
one another.

Eventually in my view, NR will be like that as well. We already have a
core of very interested citizes who show up at the various events around
the globe, and more and more those people are working together. Thoe
who are interested find something (????) for them i the rganization and
the people and the commitment. Others do not , and leave fr a great
variety of reasons, many of which relate to an imperfect undrstanding of
the world around them, or from actions or comments of a few seeming to
stem from the organization as a whole.

I feel good about my part in NR, bcause those around me are good
hard-working people, that for the most part I can trust, based on past
activities and mutual support / agreement and although there are some
aspects which in my view need work, we progress. It takes years to
establish a trust in your comrades, and even longer when you
fave-to-face meetings which are further apart than a regular local
involvement.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] wealth and centuries
From:	"Laureatus Armoricus" <laureatusarmoricus@tiscali.co.uk>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:39:20 +0100

salvete Scaure et omnes,

A word of admiration first to Iulius Scaurus and his enlightened posts :
Thank you.

I have however a couple of points I would like to raise on the sketched
election law you offered us. I am not (yet ;-)) an expert on Roman history
so please forgive (and correct)any inaccuracies.

1. If I am not mistaken century affiliation was granted by the censores
according to your wealth, the richer got to the centuries in the first class
and so on...Your proposal mentioned that wealth of Antiqua, as it is in the
present system, should be represented by our NR century points. I have had
so far no problem with that because even with little points I could still
get a vote (minute but still one...) who represented my worthiness in the
system and even aknowledged whether I paid my taxes or not.
Now, should your proposal be approved tomorrow and passed as law, does that
mean that the censores will organise the citizens in the 5 classes system ?
It will surely result in concentrating in the first 2 classes all public
officers who have (rightly I must point out) accumulated century points for
their dedicated service to the Republic over the years. It would also create
an ad hoc situation where the effective voting power remains with the same
small number of people (but that's the point, isn'it?).
In fact, I have no problem in rewarding public service. But century points
rewards almost nothing else but political activity. Indeed does "the wealth"
of our republic lay only in political achievements ? Senator Q. Fabius
Maximus expressed his concerns about why we are here and how we can all feel
part of something greater than the sum of its individuals : I share his view
on this particular point and in my mind personal dedication to the
romanitas, as it enriches the individual and therefore the republic, should
also be rewarded. The real strengh of NR is its people, its wealth is the
kowledge they acquired and transmit. Does that go rewarded ? shamefully not.
I would very much like to see that century points are awarded also to people
who actively study latin and the like, who organise meetings, historical
events etc.
If you based the proposed election law only on points awarded for political
service, I fear that NR will soon be nothing more than a competitive role
playing game.
***Let me clarify before I get tons of mail that I am all in favour of
points for service but would ALSO like to see some form of other
recognition******

2. On another point, Iulius Scaurus mentioned that his proposal will be
likely to re-enact the balance of power between the tribal assembly and the
senate. Indeed, for the reasons I have explained above, we are likely to
create de facto a self replicating senatorial pool from the 1st and 2nd
classes against a mob who could hardly aspire to any office without prior
approval from the resulting reigning oligarchy. As historical accuracy goes,
the first born of a "very" rich family could enter the senate and be
classified in the first class only because daddy owned a lot of land. the
adequation between century points and money here doesn't stand.
As for the tribunal organisation, it was my understanding that it arised
from the conflict of orders and the organisation of the plebs into a working
political force, nonne? The proposed system will surely see patricians with
little or no points relegated to the 4th or 5th class and not being able to
vote for Tribuni ! If centuriate vote stops at the 3 rd class, they lose on
both counts ! The project offered will very likely undermine any notion of
patrician / plebeian status (but perhapd it will redefine it !)

3. As a final point I find Scaurus' proposal commendable, clever and
intelligent. It could and can work should we choose to use it. But it will
also certainly create a new state of affairs with a "new nobilitas" and its
corresponding "plebs" where patrician and plebeian names mean little. Any
new idea to adopt laws promoting one aspect to be closer to ways of ancient
rome will undoubtebly result in creating a new field where accuracy will
suffer. For that matter I thought that censores where originally elected
every 5 years. We have one now elected every year for a 2 year mandate so we
can cope with modern imperatives. Examples of this type are many in NR and
perfectly natural and understandable. In such a light do we really need such
an election law in the 21st century to promote the spirit of the romanitas?
I thought the lex Vedia was a good compromise.

For those of you who have read so far, thank you. I hope this interesting
discussion will continue for a while for I find the underlying matter
challenging : How would have Rome evolved in our modern world ? Can we
emulate the romanitas without recreating every single piece of legislation ?

Many thanks and take care

Corn. Moravius Laureatus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:52:04 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "quintuscassiuscalvus"

Salve Aulus Apollonius Cordus

I hit the send button before I remember to add my congratulations on
your posting as Legate in Britania. My apologies for that
oversight.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: protest, too much list traffic
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:09:37 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Gaius Galerius Peregrinator"
<gaiusgalerius@h...> wrote:
> Salve consobrine Galerii, and thank you for the compliment.
>
> I am afraid not many people are paying attention anylonger,
> and I suspect aside from my own family and some friends nobody
> read my post, and that goes for most in the list, and how can one
blame
> anybody. Did you see how many "messages" we had yesterday.
> I counted 125. I had a day off and couldn't keep up with it, and
> thank heavens and internet engineers for the delete button. And
> here I protest to the moderators. This is a massage board and not
> a chat room, and to those who'd disagree, don't be too sure, as some
> of you have interesting and intelligent things to say and you will
> not be heard because you will be drowned in the chat.
>
> Salvete Galerii et omnes,

I understand your point Galerii. I'm sure all of us had some of our
postings missed with all the barrage of mail. I had a few private
questions from some new potential Nova Romans and my question as to
why we can't use the "chat" here on this list under home/message/post
has not been addressed. The forumromanum chat is a valiant effort but
it is way too slow when compared with MSN chat etc that I use with
some of our citizens. So once again, why not use the yahoo chat on
this list?

All I can say about the postings here is "thems the breaks!" This is
the busiest I've seen the group for a while and everyone seems to be
having a great time over the last few days even if there is
disagreement on things. I belong to other non- Roman groups and you
are at first lucky to see 1 - 5 emails a day. This is pretty boring
so I as well as others cut back our visits to once a week; again less
mail; once a month; again less interest or mail; every few months and
eventually - poof! List all gone. No more interest.

Any suggestions on what to do about this? I can see busy traffic is
frustrating but if the moderators refuse to post our reasonable and
unoffensive letters they will find themselves unemployed moderators
becaus there shall be little or no citizens left to post.

Regards

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:18:11 -0000

Salve Luci,

Thank you for your reply on Ireland. I look forward to your
information in the future.

Erin go bragh!

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "lucius_lucillus_catiline"
<graymouser01@a...> wrote:
> Salve Quintus
>
> There is suprisingly little hard evidence in the way of information
> regarding Roman contact with Ireland. That there was contact can be
> in little doubt - we know (as you mention) that the Romans knew the
> Irish both as raiders and (particularly in south west Wales)as
> settlers. I wrote a few papers on related topics while at Uni
(where
> my studies focused on the Celts) - I'll try to dig them out when I
> have more time and get what info I can for you.
>
> Vale
>
> Lucius Lucillus Catiline
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
> Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Salve Tite,
> >
> > As I mentioned to Urania the other day, that does not seem to be
an
> > active gens. Hopefully the'rll be some shuffling and rearranging
of
> > gens after the census.
> >
> > As for history, Rome knew of Hibernia and traded with the
natives.
> > There was a plan to invade Hibernia; Agricola thought he could do
> it
> > with 1 or 2 legions but other problems came up and the plan was
> > shelved indefinitely. A few Irish chietains sought sanctuary in
> Roman
> > Britain after losing internal quarrels in Hibernia. Anyway based
on
> > that little history, I'm sure some Roman traders, scouts or
> diplomats
> > got over there. If anyone has more information on Hibernia and
Rome
> > we'd love to know!
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Quintus
> >


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Getting To Know Another Person
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:18:37 -0400 (EDT)

Master Belisarius;

Well, in reading over my last message to you, actually I should have, I
suppose, sent it not specifically to you but rather to the List. I have
been making a series of mistakes of late. It must be related to the
intake of Peach Wine to date (Gin!!!!!!!!!).

However, you have apologized, which was not required, but was
appreciated. An exchange of background seems only fair. I was raised a
Christain Scientist as a young man. I too was taught the value the
religious experience, and have cherished that belief even though over
the years, the belief has within me searched for something believable.

My father was a Southern Baptist and my Mother a Christian Scientist.
Unfortunately, she did not have the determination that the S.C. requires
to believe that." illness is just a figment of the imagination," as my
grandmother usd to say. She died for her beliefs when my father was no
longer alive to take her to a doctor over her objections. You can
imagine how that shook an already unsteady belief in my own mind.

In searching for a replacement, I have been subjected to several
"Militant Christain Characters" whom I have dismissed (some physically)
from consideration, before becoming interested in Buhuddist beliefs,
then looked carefully into Catholic, Mormon, Islamic and Jewish beliefs,
as well. In each one of these I tried to become one with the beliefs,
but it didn't feel right, so I moved on. I finally settled on a kind of
generalized personalized arangement with the "Man Upstairs" (very
similar to the arrangement that I had with my last Commander, with whom
I would have trusted my wife, wallet and dog) in my periodic walks in
the woods behind my house. I am Christain, though not through Church
Dctrine, but rather as a sense of having "arrived" at a place that is
right for me. I am a retired Navy Chief Warrant Officer who spent 20
years in the U.S. Submarine Force. After that, I spent 20 years in the
design of submarines as a Supervisor of fleet changes to the TRIDENT
submarine system. So I have some background in both taking orders and
giving them, as well as a healthy respect for the old saing that "God
helps those who help themselves."

In Nova Roma, I am little more than a student. I came here to learn
about Romans, because I like the Roman stories. I have been greatly
honored in NR (probably far beyond my deserving) and now devote my
attentions to a few tasks which I have the time to handle. Every now
and then, I tell a story of my own which is usually not very good, but
somehow it relieves me of a certain undefinable stress to do so.

So much for an exchange of background. I was not put off by your
stories, at all, but there probably are other ways to tell the stories
to make them a little less pierching. I understand that you did not
know there were others here not Pagans. Not a problem, let us go from
here. My thanks for your references, and also my thanks for your effort
to pass on informatin regarding Mithracism. I find it of significant
value.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] re: CMS definition of faction Part 2
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:21:57 +0200

Salve Scaevola,

<Whoa, whoa - wind down the rhetoric machine, please. I wasn't accusing
<you of slandering anyone, or trying to get anyone confused; what I said,
<since it obviously was not clear to you, is that the meaning of
<"faction" is not what you think it is, at least not in common usage, and
<I disagree with your application of the term. Is that any clearer?

Yes, perfectly clar now. Thanks!

<Yup. I think that mine represents the more common perception of the
<term;
Yes, it does seem that everyone has a different dictionary than I do...
That's the problem of living in a foreign country ya' know.

<I think you know that if I wanted to be
<disparaging of you or was trying to say that you slandered someone, I
<would make it clear as day and leave no doubt whatsoever. <wink>
I feel much better now. I think.

snipped from your email to G Iulius Scaurus:
<The Boni are a faction here, because they distinguish themselves by
<their political "colors" -

Just curious: a faction according to the definition that I found in the
dictionary or the one that you found in the dictionary? :-p

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship too easy
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:30:24 +0200

Salve M Flavius Aurelius,

<What's wrong with citizens
<who sign up, then find NR does not deliver what they were seeking, and so
<they wander away.

Nothing really, except that they should tell someone that they are wandering
away. We have citizens come in, start a new gens because they don't want to
join someone else's, admit new citizens to their gens and then wander off
never to be heard from again. This leaves the rest of the Gens in limbo with
new people applying for citizenship and not getting a reply. The good news
is this problem will be solved by the census.

<If this happens, it says to me there is something lacking in Nova Roma, not
<with the citizenship base....

I don't know about that. There are many of us who find Nova Roma great. I
wonder what those who wander off expected. And also, if they are unhappy
immediately and then disappear, this *probably* means that they became a
citizen before they even signed up for this mailing list in order to see
what it is really like.

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship too easy
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:50:19 -0400 (EDT)

I tend to agree with Diana. I am not sure that Nova Roma is directly at
fault with the majority of those who leave. There is certainly enough
evidence that insensitive insulting comments directed at new people were
enough to dislodge a number in the past.

Certainly there is much about NR to improve, however, there is so much
more here to enjoy. Diana's comment, "What did they expect??" and
Fabius's comment about NR not being created to "entertain" people rings
very true. A prudent person normally makes some kind of determination
before committing oneself with any degree of thought to any institution.

However, in my view the simplicity of leaving any commitment on the
internet is a large factor in an increasing number of "drifters" on the
internet, who have little committment to anything but thier own personal
desires, definately as I see it a "Me First" crowd.

In the early days it took me three tries to get into NR because the
person in charge of that responsibility then kept losing my
applications. I am not sure how many people we would have in NR today
if everyone had to go through that kind of entrance procedure
(Grin!!!!!!!!!).

Several people have discussed going back to the old ways of a using a
"snail mail" application. Another consideration is to base the Roman
Citizenship on service to the micronation, very much as was done in the
late Republic and Early Empire. What was it???---six years of service
in the Vigiles in order to get a Roman Citizenship, and 25 years in the
Auxila, wow, talk about a difference -- must have been political!!!

New Citizens today, have a very wide variety of areas to explore, and a
number of various weblists and Sodalitas to be involved with. Indeed
what do these "drifters" expect???

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] wealth and centuries
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:58:17 -0400

Laureatus Armoricus <laureatusarmoricus@tiscali.co.uk> writes:

[...]

> It would also create
> an ad hoc situation where the effective voting power remains with the same
> small number of people (but that's the point, isn'it?).

As I mentioned elsewhere in my reply to Lucius Equitius, our current
system does this already. I agree with you that the Iulian model would
enhance that concentration to a significantly greater degree. (Of course
with my own rather large number of century points that would be to my
advantage. But I'm a populist at heart, and I'd really rather see
every citizen's vote count for something.)

> In fact, I have no problem in rewarding public service. But century points
> rewards almost nothing else but political activity.

You're right. This is a matter that we've discussed before, and with
some bitterness I daresay. Our current system of century points is
a compromise at best. I would personally like to see century points
also awarded for service in the sodalities, in the academia, and possibly
in the sponsored reenactment legions. But I think that the political
cost of changing the century point allocation rules is significant, and
I'm not yet ready to fight that battle.

Oh, one correction: Century points also reward service in the Religio
Romana.

[...]

> If you based the proposed election law only on points awarded for political
> service, I fear that NR will soon be nothing more than a competitive role
> playing game.

I know disaffected of citizens who think that's already the case. They
have told me so when I've spoken with them, asking why they have gone
inactive.

[...]

> For those of you who have read so far, thank you. I hope this interesting
> discussion will continue for a while for I find the underlying matter
> challenging : How would have Rome evolved in our modern world ?

Exactly. That's how I see it too. Some want to take us back to the
7th or 8th century a.u.c. I, and others including you, want to live
in Nova Roma of the 28th century a.u.c.

> Can we emulate the romanitas without recreating every single piece
> of legislation?

I think we can. Furthermore, I think we ought to.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Getting To Know Another Person
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:58:46 -0000

Caro Marcus,
I thank "you", I have no ego to bruise and willingly admit when I am
wrong.
Peach wine??? I make my own wine and recently fermented a chablis
grape with apricot and peach fruit - Ice wine style - which came out
fantastic - I'm ready to drink it now and haven't even aged it yet.

I can well empathize and sympathize with your past and present
especially the search for "what feels right".
Your military background is interesting too and I have learned from
Gnaeus Laterius Marinus (excuse the name, I'm sure the last part is
Marinus), another Noble Citizen and retired Marine the difference
between command and order.

The christian ethos(?) is a very beautiful attitude and belief for
Jesus Christ was a very just, honorable, loving and forgiving person
and to be like him (understanding the true him and not just what some
books tell but the whole story) is a great ideal for which to strive.
As you mentioned - Buddha and Mohammed are also great role models.
There is a sect called Jews for Jesus that is chritian but not
catholic and still follows the old testament but believes in Jesus as
well (not just the man but the messiah too).

There are many faiths and I don't yet know your feelings about
religion well enough but will gladly help you in your search (having
followed that path already). For me, I knew what I believed but
didn't know it had a name - it may be the same for you and in the
end - who cares what it is called or what others think about it?

I have always had an Eastern Mentality when dealing with things so
the Eastern Philosophies came easily of which Taoism is one but it
also has a mystical side in esoterics and alchemy.
The forces of Nature (for I certainly follow a Nature Religion) are
not persons but through Stregheria I can express as personifications
of Gods and Goddesses. It makes me wince to be called Witch but I
can not deny that Stregheria is also know as Witchcraft. So many
negative correlations to Witch even more so than Pagan least of all
is satan worshipper for we do not believe in Satan or folow evil -
just rediculous propaganda and bad press.

I would suggest a book called the path to Oriental Wisdom but I get
the feeling you are monotheistic. Buddhism is ver good too and
believe it or not - I heard the only religion still growing in
number. There are many different sects but immense dogma. Zen is
just wonderful but you don't need to be Buddhist to follow Zen either.

Get back to me with your thoughts as time permits.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, MarcusAudens@w... wrote:
> Master Belisarius;
>
> Well, in reading over my last message to you, actually I should
have, I
> suppose, sent it not specifically to you but rather to the List. I
have
> been making a series of mistakes of late. It must be related to the
> intake of Peach Wine to date (Gin!!!!!!!!!).
>
> However, you have apologized, which was not required, but was
> appreciated. An exchange of background seems only fair. I was
raised a
> Christain Scientist as a young man. I too was taught the value the
> religious experience, and have cherished that belief even though
over
> the years, the belief has within me searched for something
believable.
>
> My father was a Southern Baptist and my Mother a Christian
Scientist.
> Unfortunately, she did not have the determination that the S.C.
requires
> to believe that." illness is just a figment of the imagination," as
my
> grandmother usd to say. She died for her beliefs when my father
was no
> longer alive to take her to a doctor over her objections. You can
> imagine how that shook an already unsteady belief in my own mind.
>
> In searching for a replacement, I have been subjected to several
> "Militant Christain Characters" whom I have dismissed (some
physically)
> from consideration, before becoming interested in Buhuddist
beliefs,
> then looked carefully into Catholic, Mormon, Islamic and Jewish
beliefs,
> as well. In each one of these I tried to become one with the
beliefs,
> but it didn't feel right, so I moved on. I finally settled on a
kind of
> generalized personalized arangement with the "Man Upstairs" (very
> similar to the arrangement that I had with my last Commander, with
whom
> I would have trusted my wife, wallet and dog) in my periodic walks
in
> the woods behind my house. I am Christain, though not through
Church
> Dctrine, but rather as a sense of having "arrived" at a place that
is
> right for me. I am a retired Navy Chief Warrant Officer who spent
20
> years in the U.S. Submarine Force. After that, I spent 20 years in
the
> design of submarines as a Supervisor of fleet changes to the TRIDENT
> submarine system. So I have some background in both taking orders
and
> giving them, as well as a healthy respect for the old saing
that "God
> helps those who help themselves."
>
> In Nova Roma, I am little more than a student. I came here to learn
> about Romans, because I like the Roman stories. I have been greatly
> honored in NR (probably far beyond my deserving) and now devote my
> attentions to a few tasks which I have the time to handle. Every
now
> and then, I tell a story of my own which is usually not very good,
but
> somehow it relieves me of a certain undefinable stress to do so.
>
> So much for an exchange of background. I was not put off by your
> stories, at all, but there probably are other ways to tell the
stories
> to make them a little less pierching. I understand that you did not
> know there were others here not Pagans. Not a problem, let us go
from
> here. My thanks for your references, and also my thanks for your
effort
> to pass on informatin regarding Mithracism. I find it of
significant
> value.
>
> Respectfully;
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills
the
> white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
> gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship
starts and
> flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and
following
> Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:18:32 -0300 (ART)

Salvete

--- Titus Maxentius Verus <jgrady@lucent.com>
escreveu:
> Salvete Omnes et Salve Vibi Ambrosi, Marce Calidi,
> Tite Octavi, Tite Maxenti, Gai Porsenni, et Urania
> Calidia,
>
> I am Titus Maxentius Verus, an inhabitant of
> Hibernia and a new citizen of Nova Roma.
>
> Fellow Hibernians, I am curious: Why is that, on
> the Album Gentium, only two inhabitants of IE
> (Hibernia) are listed? I was thus under
> the impression that there was no settlement of
> Nova Roman families in Hibernia. It seems that
> the lists on the main site regarding Gens
> and Cives are not complete.

M.Arminius: Im not an Hibernian; but if i can make an
intrusion in the discussion ... :)
This is because some Hibernian cives (yes, Republic of
Eire) are inscribed in Britannia, and others no; so it

is a bit difficult to find everybody reunited.
Regarding the Gens question, the gens can be
multi-provincial. My own gens, Arminia, has citizens
of Australia, and the gens Cornelia or Octavia, for
example, includes people from USA, Europe and
elsewhere.

> It is good to know, however, that we have a
> developing Nova Roman community here, in Hibernia,
> that, together, we can bring the Via Romana to
> this dark isle, and, that, hopefully, we will
> eventually achieve provincial status.

M.Arminius: Hope so!

> Valete,
> Titus Maxentius Verus

Vale
Marcus Arminius

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:42:21 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : Titus Maxentius Verus <jgrady@lucent.com>
Date : 24 June 2003 16:14:01

Salve
>
>This time, I pray, the indigenous Celts will welcome our superior
>civilisation.
>
>(If not, well, then, we will conquer them.)
>
Spoken like a true Roman, civis!

Vib. Ambrosius Caesariensis

Truth hurts. Not the searching after, the running from. - John Eyberg

--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] NOVA roma
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:43:33 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

No the Subject line isn't a typo, it's a means of
expressing what some people's views of our seem to be.
NOVA in upper case as the "important" part, roma in
lower case as something unimportant tacked on to the
NOVA.

The roma part seems to be comming more and more
unimportant to those enthralled with the NOVA. Soon it
will be NOVA rom... Nova ro... Nova r... as more and
more of Roma gets tossed on the scrap heap.

Perhaps we should be discussing a name change along
with the other Modernisms. How about "New Republic".
It gets rid of that "outdated" Latin for a modern
language, and removes Roma from the name entirely.

We also need to remove the final sentence from the
Preamble of the Constitution. The one that reads "The
culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome." Instead of
ignoring it, it would be more honest to delete it.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Citizenship too easy??
From:	"lucius_lucillus_catiline" <graymouser01@aol.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:40:22 -0000

Salve

> In the early days it took me three tries to get into NR because the
> person in charge of that responsibility then kept losing my
> applications. I am not sure how many people we would have in NR
today
> if everyone had to go through that kind of entrance procedure
> (Grin!!!!!!!!!).

I must confess I am a little suprised people think it is easy to gain
citizenship :)

I filled in the application form several months ago, and have since
sent an email to the Censors also, but have yet to hear any word on
my citizenship. I did in fact refrain from posting here at all for
quite some time, not having heard anything...

*wonders vaguley what the penalty is for impersonating a citizen*

:)

Lucius Lucillus Catiline


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Website address for the MTR
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:38:40 -0000

Salve Gai Iuliane;
I studied Italian in University and speak it easily as well, so
mille grazie, I will really enjoy this!
Vale,
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Thanks for the information.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, GAIVS IVLIANVS <ivlianvs309@y...>
> wrote:
> > Salvete omnes! Many of you have asked me if there
> > exists a website for Italy's foremost Roman Pagan
> > group known as the MTR (Movimento Tradizionale
> > Romano/Traditional Roman Movement)! Yes, you can
> > locate it at the website for their official review
> > magazine called "La Cittadella" at
> > http://www.lacittadella-mtr.com For those of you
> > who can read some Italian you should find this most
> > interesting! I would also like to point out due to
> > some comments I have read from a Nova Roma citizen
> > that the rites as used by the MTR, many of which I
> > myself passed on to Nova Roma are indeed "authentic!"
> > Many of which have been reconstructed from scholarly
> > sources and inline and according to the traditional
> > Roman Mos Maiorum! Valete! Frater GAIVS IVLIVS
> > IVLIANVS, PGI, Flamen Florealis, Sac. Nat.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione - the discussion
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:51:59 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to D. Iunius Silanus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> The concern is not so much that certain factions
will
> be 'shut out' as you put it, but rather that one
> faction (currently yours, amice) will be able to
> 'dominate'. This will not be healthy for the future
> of Nova Roma, in my opinion.

First of all, may I seek to dispel any notion that the
Fabian system is being proposed with the conscious
intent to perpetuate the hold on power of the Consul
and his friends and allies (I know this is not what
you are suggesting, but some might infer it).

If this were the intention, there would hardly be any
need to change the current system - in the last
Consular election the candidate who tends publicly to
disagree most often with the Senior Consul was not
elected, while Fabius Quintilianus was elected with
the most centuries. On this evidence, the Consul has
no need to fear that his 'faction' will be
disadvantaged by the existing system.

> I say that you and your colleagues have not been
able
> to convince me that the Fabian system will not lead
> to such problems either. The nature of statistics is
> that we could both produce countless examples that
> could 'prove' our argument one way or another, and
> as such this is probably not the best way to
> proceed.

Well, this is not quite correct. If it is possible for
a thing to occur in a given system, this can be proven
with a single example. It is true that a finite number
of examples cannot necessarily prove that a certain
outcome is *impossible*; but anyone seeking to argue
that the Fabian system could allow a dominant faction
to succeed in gaining all the vacancies of a given
magistracy could prove the truth of such an assertion
simply by producing an example of this happening.

However, let me save you the necessity of producing
such an example by saying that one could be produced.
Yes, it is possible under the Fabian system for two
candidates who were close allies or who subscribed to
the same ideals and policies to be elected together.
This is not injustice or gerrymandering but democracy,
whose basic principle is that the government of the
state should be conducted by the person or persons who
are supported by the majority of the electorate.

If the majority of the electorate wishes a pair of
allied candidates to be elected, then this is to my
mind perfectly above board and proper. After all, it
is not as if two rival groups could not each field a
pair of candidates so that the electorate could choose
to elect, if it wished, one pair, or the other, or one
of each. In the elections at the end of the year 1998
(2751) a pair of candidates ran as a slate against
another candidate who stood alone. The lone candidate
in the event withdrew, and the slate won. There was,
to be sure, discussion of whether running as a slate
was historical or not, and some jocular talk of
'conspiracies' and such, and later on there was a
completely separate question about the legality of a
different aspect of the elections - so we can see that
people were not asleep or uncritical; but never once,
as far as I can find, was there any serious suggestion
that a cabal or faction had seized power in the state.

However, I am not completely oblivious to the
arguments against a system which operates in this way.
It is sometimes desirable not just for an elected
group or body to represent the preference of the
majority but for that group also to represent, in due
proportion, the desires of various minorities. This is
especially true of legislative bodies; our legislative
bodies, I'm glad to say, are extremely representative,
being composed of the people as a whole. I also
consider that in the case of the Tribunes, whose
function is specifically to be outside partisanship
and to care for the interests of all citizens, it is
important to have a representative selection.

I personally do not consider that proportional
representation is useful or necessary for the
magistracies elected by the Centuriate Assembly.
However, I do feel that it is a debate worth having,
and one which is particularly pertinent to we Britons
and our American cousins, since we belong to two of
the few remaining countries in the world not to use
proportional representation in electing their
legislatures. So, let us by all means have the debate;
and let us particularly inquire whether ancient Roman
elections were founded on the principle of the will of
the majority or on that of proportionality. I believe
the former; but there are others who know their
history better than I.

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship too easy??
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:51:58 EDT

In a message dated 6/24/03 2:50:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
graymouser01@aol.com writes:

> wonders vaguley what the penalty is for impersonating a citizen*
>
Salvete
Well, you are not impersonating anybody, you are a pending citizen and
welcome to Nova Roma.
Having worked in the Censors office, I'll tell you, its a hard job and they
will accommodate you as quickly as possible.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: protest, too much list traffic
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:54:56 -0000

AVETE OMNES

This is a massage board and not
> > a chat room, and to those who'd disagree, don't be too sure, as
some
> > of you have interesting and intelligent things to say and you will
> > not be heard because you will be drowned in the chat.

As I see it, this is not a message board, but rather it tries to
recreate the idea of the Forum, where people start a lot of
discussions on a lot of matters, and you can follow the one you
prefere, and ignore those you are not interested in.

On a chat this would be very difficult and, in addition, discussions
couldn't be kept in the archives, while we already experienced they
are very useful.

BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:26:13 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Tribune C. Popillius Laenas
and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> When I read the following, I felt I had to comment:
>
> > If I may follow up on your answer above: how is it
> > that a system which is quite likely to deprive
> > many citizens of their chance to
> > vote at all can produce an accurate reflection of
> > the will of the voters?
>
> It all depends on what one's objective is. As
> Lucius Sicinius has pointed out, the founders felt
> the objective was to recreate the Roman Republic.
> The Julian "proposal" does that, and deprives some
> citizens of their chance to vote, just as did the
> system of our ancient forebearers.

This is quite true; however, to put my question back
in context, I was querying Rogator Cassius Calvus'
statement that the Iulian system *does* produce an
accurate reflection of the will of the voters. Whether
or not the system is historical is, I think we can
agree, utterly irrelevant to the question of whether
or not it reflects the will of the voters.

When the issue of letter vs. spirit is raised with
regard to the closeness with which we should seek to
reproduce the ancient republic, it is quite common for
someone to say, 'well we don't have slavery and we
have women's suffrage, so that shows we don't have to
stick closely to the original model'. Now, usually
this sort of argument is rather spurious and
hyperbolic, for the particular aspect of
reconstruction in question is usually of nothing like
the same importance as slavery or women's suffrage.

In this case, however, I shall put forward this
dreaded argument in all seriousness. I do not suggest
that to deprive a person of his vote is as wicked as
to claim to own his very person; however, the question
of women's suffrage is very, very pertinent and
comparable.

There are few who would remain in Nova Roma if it were
to deprive women of the right to vote or to hold
office on the grounds of historical accuracy; this is
an extent to which even hardcore reconstructionists do
not seek to go. Is there much difference between
depriving someone of a vote simply because she is a
woman and depriving someone of a vote simply because
he or she is in a lower century, when this may quite
easily be for no other reason than that he or she only
gained citizenship recently or is prevented by his or
her religious principles from participating in public
life? I submit that there is little difference.

Let us not be confused: depriving the lower centuries
of their right to vote is not just an extension of the
existing system whereby the vote of a citizen in a
lower century has less weight than that of his
counterpart in a higher century. This is not a
difference of extent, but of kind. However little it
may be worth, a vote is a vote, and no vote is no
vote. Remember, our small population means that a
citizen of Nova Roma has a vote vastly more powerful
than that his or her vote in his or her 'macro'
nation.

To deprive a person of his vote is not, and should not
be, acceptable in this age. If we reject a society in
which women are forbidden to vote, we must reject any
electoral system which does not guarantee to every
citizen the single vote which gives him a stake in his
own nation.

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:44:10 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

First of all I must thank Consul Fabius Quintilianus,
Aedile Equitius Marinus and Rogator Cassius Calvus for
their congratulations. I didn't expect so soon to
become one of those people who get congratulated on
things in the public Forum by eminent citizens!

And thanks also to Governor Iunius Silanus and my
colleague Postumius Tubertus for telling me which oath
I need. Speaking of which, let me attempt to muster my
gravitas before I say...

I, A. Apollonius Cordus (J. K. Johnston), do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and
to act always in the best interests of the people and
the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, A. Apollonius Cordus,
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my
public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my
public and private life.

I, A. Apollonius Cordus, swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma
and swear never to act in a way that would threaten
its status as the State Religion.

I, A. Apollonius Cordus, swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, A. Apollonius Cordus, further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of
Legate of Lower Britain (Legatus Britanniae
Inferioris)to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of Legate of Lower Britain (Legatus Britanniae
Inferioris) and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Cordus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Provinciae et Hibernia
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:58:06 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to T. Maxentius Verus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

Let me say first of all that I haven't yet consulted
my new superior, Governor Iunius Silanus of Britain,
so this is by no means an official pronouncement of
any kind, despite my recently acquired legateship.

> Would it not then be logical for Hibernia to become
> part of the Roman province of Britannia?

As a Briton, and also as half an Irishman (on my
mother's side), I wouldn't have any problem with this.
I would hope that the common Romanity of our two
islands would enable us to regain a common Britishness
long buried under Norman, Jacobean and Cromwellian
invasions, assassinations in Phoenix Park and
suchlike. It is notable in this respect that Portugese
and Spanish citizens have overcome historic tensions
to be amalgamated by their own request in the Iberian
province. I would also personally tend to support the
inclusion of Northern Ireland in the Hibernian rather
than the British province.

However, I would feel that ultimately a decision of
this kind ought not to be made without extensive
consultation with both British and Hibernian citizens,
to which end perhaps we should continue this
discussion on the BritanniaProvincia yahoogroups
e-mail list (to which, I believe, Britons, Hibernians
and citizens of other provinces are free to
subscribe).

Cordus

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