Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Untouchable Gentes (was Re: NOVA roma)
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:00:08 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator L. Sicini Druse.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"

> LSD: In matters of Government, the Senate should
> clearly state which era of the Republic will serve as
> our model. Once that is done much of the confusion
> over which text is correct will vanish. In the matter
> of the Gens the state should stay as far removed from
> them as possible.

Although this American Libertarian approach does seem very
respectable to me, it is *not* historically appropriate according to
Roman tradition. Our forefathers did *not* consider gentes to be an
untouchable entity that was beyond the interests of the State. That,
senator, is just a figment of modern minds.

The laws of Nova Roma (and not some kind of Natural Law) define our
gentes; currently, that definition is imperfect. As simple as that.

<<snipped>>

> LSD: Far to often the concept of being a Micronation
> causes us to forget that we are also a voulantary
> organization that is only held togather by common
> consent. As in any voulantary organization attempting
> to use force rather than persusion is more likely to
> result in people leaving than in compliance. Would you
> lose intrest if a law was passed requiring Legios to
> be equiped with modern rifles? would you be more
> likely to feel that you had been imposed apon, that
> your services weren't appriciated? Wouldn't that make
> you more likely to leave?

But the problem, to continue your metaphore, is that you are
*defending* the use of rifles in legions, and not the other way
round. You are not defending a historical institution; you are
defending a modern construct. Not to mention that the proposal was
barely "forcing" anyone to do anything; those who had expressed their
desire to keep things more or less as they were would have
encountered no problems.

You have to make up your mind between defending Roman tradition and
defending the current gens system. I am afraid that you can't defend
both at the same time.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] LUDI VENETA (The internal race of Factio Veneta)
From:	"Alejandro Carneiro" <piteas@telefonica.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:07:36 -0000

LUDI VENETA (The internal race of Factio Veneta)

---------------------Final-------------------------
Titus Licinius Crassus
Chariot: Orionis Draco
Driver: Equus Magnus
-------------------------------------
Gaius Lanius Falco
Chariot name - Veritas
Driver - Maximus Vincentius
-------------------------------------
Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Chariot: Ossifragus
Driver: Pontius Falx
-------------------------------------
L. Pompeius Octavianus
Chariot: Crux Australis
Driver: Victor Hispanicus
-------------------------------------
Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus
Chariot: Phaeton
Driver: Iaculator
-------------------------------------

Salvete Omnes!

..and welcome to LUDI VENETA, the internal Ludi for the supporters of
Factio
Veneta where the Champion in blue will be crowned! Several weeks have
past
since we witnessed the last races and the long wait for further
action has
brought, not only the blue supporters to the Circus, but also
supporters
from the Red, Green and White teams. The Circus is in perfect
condition and
the weather is certainly in favour for the upcoming race. The sun
shine's
brightly in the deep blue sky and the the thousands of blue banners
among
the spectators creates the illusion of the sky continuing all the way
down
to the Circus floor.
Now, let's see what is happening down at the starting line...
At the innermost lane stands the chariot Orionis Draco, owned by
Titus
Licinius Crassus and driven by the skilled Equus Magnus. Next to him
stands
the chariot Veritas, owned by Illustrus Gaius Lanius Falco and driven
by
Maximus Vincentius, who waves cheeerfully to the crowd. Next to him
we find
the chariot Ossifragus, owned by Gallus Minucius Iovinus and driven
by the
bushy bearded Pontius Falx. Next to him stand the chariot Crux
Australis,
owned by Illustrus Lucius Pompeius Octavianus, the "boss" over Factio
Veneta. His driver is the qualified Victor Hispanicus. Next to him on
the
outermost lane we find the chariot Phaeton, driven
by Iaculator and owned by Illustrus Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus.

As the participators are taking their places along the starting-line
the
crowds cheers are subdued as they await the start with great
anticipation.
When the chariots finally take off the Circus completely exploads in
a
roaring symphony of voices. Both Orionis Draco and Veritas gets a
good start
and recives a small advantage over the others as the chariots enters
the
first curve. Phaeton seriously challanges them both as he races the
curve
really close, but he doesn't seems to pass either one of them. In the
back
of the race we can witness a close struggle between Ossifragus and
Crux
Australis. As the chariots comes out of the curve and in to the
straight
line Orionis Draco, Veritas and Phaeton are lined up side by side. A
few
feets behind the leading trio Ossifragus seems to have recived a
small
advantage over Crux Australis, who struggles desperately to keep up
with
Ossifragus.
As the race continues Phaeton looses a few feets to both Orionis
Draco and
Veritas, but neither of them seems to get the upper hand over
eachother as
they struggle side by side in to the next curve. Behind the leading
duo and
Phaeton we find Ossifragus with a growing lead over the last chariot
Crux
Australis.

The gravel spatters under the hoofs of the strained horses as the
drivers
are pushing their chariots to the limit. The spectators are totally
ecstatic
and their loud cheers are almost deafening. - Wow!!! - This is surely
a
close race and the crowd seems to love it!
Orionis Draco and Veritas are still ingaged in a close struggle for
the lead
and Phaeton is really trying to keep up with them. But
hey! ...something
happens in the leading duo... In their close struggle Orionis Draco
and
Veritas bumps in to eachother and the chariot's wheels get stuck,
making the
whole process really short. Bits of wood and steel flies through the
air in
a massive cloud of dust as the two chariots loose control and finally
ends
their race near the outer wall of the Circus. The crowd don't know
what to
say... had it been a chariot of another Factio there would have been
deafening sheers, but when the race only include chariots of their
own
Factio they does'nt seem to know how to act. Fortunately the drivers
of
Orionis Draco and Veritas seems to be alright, as they already are
limping
away from the demolished chariots.

What a change in the outcome of this race! Now Phaeton has a
relatively safe
lead over Ossifragus and far behind him, Crux Australis still
struggle to
keep up with the others. This seems to be a really safe journey for
Phaeton
and I don't think anything can stop him from becoming the Veneta
Champion
now... Phaeton comes up for the finish line and... yes, no one could
challange him! It's Phaeton who wins the Ludi Veneta! Phaeton, the
new
Champion of Factio Veneta! Ossifragus comes in on a second place and
Crux
Australis finishes on a third place. The crowd sheers loudly and blue
confetti fills the air over the Cicus and the competing chariots.
Well... I
thank You all for following this exciting race and wish You all the
best
until next time...
---------------------------------------

Results:
1st: Phaeton
2nd: Ossifragus
3rd: Crux Australis
4th: Orionis Draco (accident)
5th: Veritas (accident)

The Veneta champion is Phaeton, driven by Iaculator, owner GAIUS
CORNELIUS
AHENOBARBUS!!!
--------------------------------------

Valete,

Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Prolegatus Regionis Suecicae
Scriba Aedilis Curulis
Scriba Curatoris Differum et Artificium
************************************************
He who is in the company of good thoughts is never alone.
************************************************
You don't choose your ideal. It's the ideal who chooses You.
************************************************
Happiness is not a station of arrival, but a way of traveling.

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:12:17 -0400

Salve Luci Sicini,

Quite honestly, at this point, I think it would simply be better for the good of Nova Roma to drop this part of the discussion entirely. As far as I can see, we are, with this argument, doing nothing to advance Nova Roma, which is, in my opinion, what we should be trying to do. So 'Vale' to you, Senator, with regard to this topic.


In Pace,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:39:29 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator L. Sicini Druse.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> You are speaking to a person who fought the Gender
> name lex so citizens could even have a choice, even a
> bad choice in the manner of thier names, who spent
> over a year working on compramises that opened this
> list up to postings in all languages rather than
> English only, Who has fought for Gens having a choice
> to retain thier present structure if and when Gens
> Reform arrives.
>
> The Translaters were my idea, and the Lex that created
> them was largely my work, again opening options for
> citizens.
>
> I have urged that we try mock elections to see if your
> election plan would work better than Giaus Julius
> suggestion, while you and your faction have opted for
> the path of Procrustes. Just as Procrustes had his
> ideal bed that he adjusted people to fit, you and
> yours have your "ideal" election system that you are
> determined to foist on Nova Roma, adjusting the nation
> to fit your aims rather than setting your aims to meet
> the goals and needs of the nation.

This is simply not fair, senator. Over and over again you have been
offered cooperation to arrange those "mock elections". Over and over
you have decided to ignore that invitation. That is your decision and
it is yours to make; however, you should not say that that "faction"
does not want to hold mock elections, because it is not true.

> Do not try to lecture me on imposing your will on
> others, that is the vice of your faction, not mine.

Let me see... You have mentioned the gender name lex and the banning
of foreign languages on the main list. Those were two actions that
did sound like "imposing your will on others" to me, but they were
perpetrated by those in your "faction". I know that the gens reform
proposal did not impose anything to anyone...

Are you sure you are in the right "faction"? :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Researcher looking for reconstructionist Pagans with military connections
From:	Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org>
Date:	Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:38:58 -0400

Stephanie Urquhart, a researcher working with Dr. Michael Strmiska on a
book about Pagan religions, is looking to interview Military Pagans --
people who are active duty, retired, reservist, or dependent -- and who
are members of reconstructionist Pagan faiths, including not only the
Religio but also Asatru, Vanatru, Odinist, Celtic Recon, Hellenic, or
Kemetic.

If you or someone you know fits these criteria and would not mind being
interviewed, please contact her at Cailleach@cox.net.

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Researcher looking for reconstructionist Pagans with military connections
From:	raymond fuentes <praefectus2324@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:43:41 -0700 (PDT)

How do we know she's not with the CIA?

Patricia Cassia <pcassia@novaroma.org> wrote:Stephanie Urquhart, a researcher working with Dr. Michael Strmiska on a
book about Pagan religions, is looking to interview Military Pagans --
people who are active duty, retired, reservist, or dependent -- and who
are members of reconstructionist Pagan faiths, including not only the
Religio but also Asatru, Vanatru, Odinist, Celtic Recon, Hellenic, or
Kemetic.

If you or someone you know fits these criteria and would not mind being
interviewed, please contact her at Cailleach@cox.net.

-----
Patricia Cassia
Senatrix et Sacerdos Minervalis
Nova Roma . pcassia@novaroma.org

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Citizen still?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:48:49 -0400

Salve Romans

Can some one tell me if Quintus Claudius Lucentius Severus Britannicus is still a citizen?

If he is how I can get in touch with him


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:02:04 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator L. Sicini Druse.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius
> Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > You are speaking to a person who fought the Gender
> > name lex so citizens could even have a choice,
> even a
> > bad choice in the manner of thier names, who spent
> > over a year working on compramises that opened
> this
> > list up to postings in all languages rather than
> > English only, Who has fought for Gens having a
> choice
> > to retain thier present structure if and when Gens
> > Reform arrives.
> >
> > The Translaters were my idea, and the Lex that
> created
> > them was largely my work, again opening options
> for
> > citizens.
> >
> > I have urged that we try mock elections to see if
> your
> > election plan would work better than Giaus Julius
> > suggestion, while you and your faction have opted
> for
> > the path of Procrustes. Just as Procrustes had his
> > ideal bed that he adjusted people to fit, you and
> > yours have your "ideal" election system that you
> are
> > determined to foist on Nova Roma, adjusting the
> nation
> > to fit your aims rather than setting your aims to
> meet
> > the goals and needs of the nation.
>
> This is simply not fair, senator. Over and over
> again you have been
> offered cooperation to arrange those "mock
> elections". Over and over
> you have decided to ignore that invitation. That is
> your decision and
> it is yours to make; however, you should not say
> that that "faction"
> does not want to hold mock elections, because it is
> not true.

I Have sugested a slate of canidates. You have your
proposal. Our Campaigns start with an anoucement from
the Consul asking for canidates. This can be skipped,
going to the second phase an anoucement stating the
names of the canidates that I have allready sugested
and setting thedate the mock election will be held.

Since your faction has been secrective about it's
intentions, I have no way of knowing which dates will
intefer with your future plans, so y'all will have to
supply a date for the election.

So far the Consul hasn't gone beyond stating he will
hold computer simulations, and there have been many
posts from members of the Consul's staff talking about
the sims eliminating the need for mock elections.

If the Consul intends to hold mock elections, then I
suggest that he issuse a statement regarding them
rather than allowing his staff to continue to push for
simulations as a substitution.

>
> > Do not try to lecture me on imposing your will on
> > others, that is the vice of your faction, not
> mine.
>
> Let me see... You have mentioned the gender name lex
> and the banning
> of foreign languages on the main list. Those were
> two actions that
> did sound like "imposing your will on others" to me,
> but they were
> perpetrated by those in your "faction". I know that
> the gens reform
> proposal did not impose anything to anyone...
>
> Are you sure you are in the right "faction"? :-).
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
>
>

I Suggest you reread my post. I FOUGHT the Gender Lex.
I Didn't simply drop the matter after the lex was
passed either. Last year I was close to working out an
agreement Cornelius Sulla that would have resulted in
many parts of that lex being voided when things ground
to a halt because of the heavy handed attempt at Gens
reform.

I worked for the end of English only policy on this
list. It was no accident that it went through without
protests. The efforts I made behind the scenes played
a role in forstalling problems. I spent a lot of time
discussing this with the people most likely to raise
protests as long ago as a year before the ban was removed.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 673
From:	"william wheeler" <holyconelia@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 05:02:57 +0000

Eu sou ele que é o pai, a mãe, e a criança Através do pai eu sou a ação, o
fogo, o batente Embora a mãe mim é o Wizdom, a maneira, o Magick Através da
criança eu sou o infinito, o Continueing, a inspiração Com uma batida eu
furo a terra Com criança eu carreguei o sol Com inspiração eu verti a lua
Com uma respiração eu bestowed a liberdade Alguma palavra da galeria do
peanuit A você o hath I surrendered.Do como o thou wilt até mim. Meu
conscience, meu coração, meu will.(Prayer da devoção, sacrifício IV)





Rule #0: Spam is theft
Rule #1: Spammers lie
Rule #2: There is no such thing as legitimate or ethical UCE


The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed,
but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans
fought each other to a standstill

Geek Orthodox, Murphy Synod

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Mining and Metallurgy Study
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:19:28 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S. P. D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Römischer Kupferbergbau in Deutschland: Neue
Ausgrabungen am Emilianusstollen in St. Barbara (Saarland) [Roman
Copper Mining in Germany: New Excavations at the Emilianusstollen in
St. Barbara (Saarland)]":

http://www.ufg.uni-freiburg.de/d/publ/emil.html

This site comprises an online archaeological essay published by the
Institute for Pre-history and Ancient History of the University of
Freiburg. This essay outlines the problems associated with the
Emilianus inscription and the wealth of information about Roman mining
and metallurgy had from excavations on the site. The site is in
German, but can also be viewed via Altavista's Babelfish machine
translation facility (with the usual caveats about machine
translation) at http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] !!!!!!Britannia !!!!!
From:	"Cornelius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus" <laureatusarmoricus@tiscali.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 07:38:54 -0000

Salvete Civites Britanniae,

The Provincia britannia is currently discussing the possibility of
organising a regional gathering in October.
I encourage all citizens of Britannia to join the provincial list to
take part on a little poll.

I would also like to extend my thanks to our propraetor Decimus
Iunius Silanus and his staff for his excellent work in promoting the
Romanitas and giving life back to our Province over the last year(s).
It is worth checking the new Britannia web site :

http://www.onlineera.com/britannia/official.htm

Hope to see many of you soon...

Optime Valete

Corn.Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Cives Britanniae

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:46:58 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator L. Sicini Druse.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I Have sugested a slate of canidates. You have your
> proposal. Our Campaigns start with an anoucement from
> the Consul asking for canidates. This can be skipped,
> going to the second phase an anoucement stating the
> names of the canidates that I have allready sugested
> and setting thedate the mock election will be held.
>
> Since your faction has been secrective about it's
> intentions, I have no way of knowing which dates will
> intefer with your future plans, so y'all will have to
> supply a date for the election.
>
> So far the Consul hasn't gone beyond stating he will
> hold computer simulations, and there have been many
> posts from members of the Consul's staff talking about
> the sims eliminating the need for mock elections.
>
> If the Consul intends to hold mock elections, then I
> suggest that he issuse a statement regarding them
> rather than allowing his staff to continue to push for
> simulations as a substitution.

Good; that looks like a movement in the right direction. I suppose
that Cn. Equitius Marinus will want to discuss this further with you.

> > > Do not try to lecture me on imposing your will on
> > > others, that is the vice of your faction, not
> > > mine.
> >
> > Let me see... You have mentioned the gender name lex and the
> > banning of foreign languages on the main list. Those were
> > two actions that did sound like "imposing your will on others" to
> > me, but they were perpetrated by those in your "faction". I know
> > that the gens reform proposal did not impose anything to
> > anyone...
> >
> > Are you sure you are in the right "faction"? :-).
> >
> > CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
> >
> >
>
> I Suggest you reread my post. I FOUGHT the Gender Lex.
> I Didn't simply drop the matter after the lex was
> passed either. Last year I was close to working out an
> agreement Cornelius Sulla that would have resulted in
> many parts of that lex being voided when things ground
> to a halt because of the heavy handed attempt at Gens
> reform.
>
> I worked for the end of English only policy on this
> list. It was no accident that it went through without
> protests. The efforts I made behind the scenes played
> a role in forstalling problems. I spent a lot of time
> discussing this with the people most likely to raise
> protests as long ago as a year before the ban was removed.

I am sure that you did a great job in trying to convince the members
of your "faction" to present a more reasonable approach in those two
items (my heartfel congratulations). But what I was trying to say is:
why are they your "faction" if you do not agree with their policies?
Obviously, I don't want to lecture you on your personal decisions; it
was just a question out of curiosity :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Would have, Could Have, High Tech Rome
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:37:38 +0000

He (Cyril) soon prompted, or accepted, the sacrifice of a virgin who
professed the religion of the Greeks...Hypatia, the daughter of Theon the
mathematician, was initiated in her father's studies; her learned comments
have elucidated the geometry of Apollonius and Diophantus, and she publicly
taught, both at Athens and Alexandria, the philosophy of Plato and
Aristotle. In the bloom of beauty, and in the maturity of wisdom the modest
maid refused her lovers and instructed her disciples; the persons most
illustrious for their rank or merit were impatient to visit the female
philosopher; and Cyril beheld with a jealous eye the gorgeous train of
horses and slaves who crowded the door of her academy. A rumour was spread
among the Christians that the daughter of Theon was the only obstacle to the
reconciliation of the prefect and the archbishop; and the obstacle was
speedily removed. On a fatal day, in the holy season of Lent, Hypatia was
torn from her chariot, stripped naked, dragged to the church, and inhumanly
butchered by the hands of Peter the reader and a troop of savage and
meciless fanatics: her flesh was scraped from her bones with sharp
oyster-shells, and her quivering limbs were delivered to the flames. The
just progress of inquiry and punishment was stopped by seasonable gifts; but
the murder of Hypatia has imprinted an indelible stain on the character and
religion of Cyril of Alexandria.

Edward Gibbon


-----Original Message-----
>One Christian bu favourable account, 5th century? of the life & death of
Hypatia claims she remained a virgin all her life although a Philosopher and
not Christian and on one occasion when a man professed his love for her
produced the rags she had worn to prevent bleeding and told him "this is the
shame you love". I don't know how her husband felt about that - or the
perpetual virginity. It does suggest what women did.

Caesariensis


--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 673
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:57:38 -0000

Salvete Quirites.

A pretty peculiar message. I will provide a translation (my
Portuguese is not perfect, so please correct me if I make a mistake).
Words between brackets are in English in the original.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "william wheeler"
<holyconelia@h...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Eu sou ele que é o pai, a mãe, e a criança Através do pai eu sou a
> ação, o fogo, o batente Embora a mãe mim é o Wizdom, a maneira, o
> Magick Através da criança eu sou o infinito, o Continueing, a
> inspiração Com uma batida eu furo a terra Com criança eu carreguei
> o sol Com inspiração eu verti a lua Com uma respiração eu bestowed
> a liberdade Alguma palavra da galeria do peanuit A você o hath I
> surrendered.Do como o thou wilt até mim. Meu conscience, meu
> coração, meu will.(Prayer da devoção, sacrifício IV)

I am the one who is the father, the mother, and the child. Through
the father I am the action, the fire, the door. However, the mother
is the [Wizdom], the way, the [Magick]. Through the child I am the
infinite, the [Continueing], the inspiration. With a hit I hollow the
earth. With the child I carry the sun. With inspiration I poured the
moon. With one respiration I [bestowed] freedom. Some word of the
[peanuit] gallery. To you the [hath I surrendered]. From like the
[thou wilt] until me. My [conscience], my [heart], my [will].
([Prayer] of devotion, sacrifice IV)

It looks like something translated by Babelfish :-).

The rest of this criptic message is in English.

> Rule #0: Spam is theft
> Rule #1: Spammers lie
> Rule #2: There is no such thing as legitimate or ethical UCE
>
>
> The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed,
> but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans
> fought each other to a standstill
>
> Geek Orthodox, Murphy Synod

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 02:35:32 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator L. Sicini Druse.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius
> Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > I Have sugested a slate of canidates. You have
> your
> > proposal. Our Campaigns start with an anoucement
> from
> > the Consul asking for canidates. This can be
> skipped,
> > going to the second phase an anoucement stating
> the
> > names of the canidates that I have allready
> sugested
> > and setting thedate the mock election will be
> held.
> >
> > Since your faction has been secrective about it's
> > intentions, I have no way of knowing which dates
> will
> > intefer with your future plans, so y'all will have
> to
> > supply a date for the election.
> >
> > So far the Consul hasn't gone beyond stating he
> will
> > hold computer simulations, and there have been
> many
> > posts from members of the Consul's staff talking
> about
> > the sims eliminating the need for mock elections.
> >
> > If the Consul intends to hold mock elections, then
> I
> > suggest that he issuse a statement regarding them
> > rather than allowing his staff to continue to push
> for
> > simulations as a substitution.
>
> Good; that looks like a movement in the right
> direction. I suppose
> that Cn. Equitius Marinus will want to discuss this
> further with you.
>
> > > > Do not try to lecture me on imposing your will
> on
> > > > others, that is the vice of your faction, not
> > > > mine.
> > >
> > > Let me see... You have mentioned the gender name
> lex and the
> > > banning of foreign languages on the main list.
> Those were
> > > two actions that did sound like "imposing your
> will on others" to
> > > me, but they were perpetrated by those in your
> "faction". I know
> > > that the gens reform proposal did not impose
> anything to
> > > anyone...
> > >
> > > Are you sure you are in the right "faction"?
> :-).
> > >
> > > CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I Suggest you reread my post. I FOUGHT the Gender
> Lex.
> > I Didn't simply drop the matter after the lex was
> > passed either. Last year I was close to working
> out an
> > agreement Cornelius Sulla that would have resulted
> in
> > many parts of that lex being voided when things
> ground
> > to a halt because of the heavy handed attempt at
> Gens
> > reform.
> >
> > I worked for the end of English only policy on
> this
> > list. It was no accident that it went through
> without
> > protests. The efforts I made behind the scenes
> played
> > a role in forstalling problems. I spent a lot of
> time
> > discussing this with the people most likely to
> raise
> > protests as long ago as a year before the ban was
> removed.
>
> I am sure that you did a great job in trying to
> convince the members
> of your "faction" to present a more reasonable
> approach in those two
> items (my heartfel congratulations). But what I was
> trying to say is:
> why are they your "faction" if you do not agree with
> their policies?
> Obviously, I don't want to lecture you on your
> personal decisions; it
> was just a question out of curiosity :-).
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
>
>
The Gender issue arose before I became a citizen, so I
had no input on attempting to do the right thing
(encourage the proper use of Roman Names) in the wrong
way.

The Language issuse was largely a quirk of some people
who weren't exacly traditionalists.

I'm far more in agreement with the Traditionalists
than with the Modernists. We want a Nova Roma that is
as Roman as possible, while the Modernists have no
qualms about dropping much of our culture for modern
ideas.

Sir, I'm intrested in Roman culture, if I had any
intrest in Utopian Social Engineering I would join or
start a group that had that as it's primary focus
rather than seeking to impose those alien ideas on a
group that was founded for another purpose entirely.

Nova Roma was founded to promote the Religio and Roman
Culture. We haven't accomplished as much as we could
have in that area because of constant fights over the
introduction of ideas that have little or nothing to
do with Roma.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] !!!!!!Britannia !!!!!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:08:33 +0100 (BST)

Salvete Corneli Moravi et omnes,

Thank you for your confidence.

You are right...Britannia is once again finding its
feet as one of Nova Roma's healthiest and most vibrant
provinces. Its been a slow process of revival but we
are getting there.

Good luck with the gathering. Hope to see you there
:-)

This will be an excellent opportunity to extend my
heartfelt thanks to all British cives who paid their
taxes this year. Despite a growth in population,
compliance rates rose from a low of 7% last year to a
very respectable 14% - a fantastic improvement in a
single year. Well done to one and all.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Propraetor Britanniae.


> I would also like to extend my thanks to our
> propraetor Decimus
> Iunius Silanus and his staff for his excellent work
> in promoting the
> Romanitas and giving life back to our Province over
> the last year(s).
> It is worth checking the new Britannia web site :
>
> http://www.onlineera.com/britannia/official.htm
>
> Hope to see many of you soon...
>
> Optime Valete
>
> Corn.Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
> Cives Britanniae
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Hibernia: A statement from Britannia
From:	"Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@lucent.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:14:23 -0000

Salve Marene et Salve Quinte Lani Pauline,

"Go raibh maith agat" to you both for honouring my writing with your
praise.

Do you remember the film Ben Hur, when Judah Ben Hur and Mesalla, in
recalling their youth together, raised their spears and shouted "Down
Eros, Up Mars!"?

Well, I'm not sure that I would agree with that, but I will say this
regarding macronational baggage v the Via Romana:

"Down the Tribes, Up Nova Roma!"

Valete,

Titus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salve Titus Maxentius Verus,
>
> Thank you for the detailed history of "the troubles." It's quite
> illustrative.
>
> > Indeed, I am quite familiar with the history of the American Civil
> > War and that reconcialition was not an easy matter. For the most
> > part, after the passage of nearly one and a half centuries, that
> > reconciliation has been achieved.
>
> For the most part, yes. Though not entirely.
>
> > The situation between Britannia and Hibernia, though, is not quite
> > the same to that of America.
>
> I know. One of the drawbacks of the way that we interact here in NR
> is that we don't normally discuss our own macronational backgrounds.
> While my surname is a common Manx name, I'm as Irish as Paddy's pig
> on my mother's side. I grew up steeped in the stories you so
> succinctly related.
>
> Caed mille falthe,
>
> -- Marinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:53:42 -0000

WHAT A HUMBLENESS!

Oh, my! The interpreters works like horses and there is people trying
to get our sweat for political reasons!

By the way, there is interpreters who are thinking about changes on
Lex de Linguis Publicis, we are discussing on our working list. The
law is not more suitable, and it is not well written. We do use it,
because dura lex sed lex, but something better must come. Like lex de
censo, lex de linguis publicis creates the interpreters, but do not
give a true workable path to do the job. But this is a matter for
later, not now.

That is why you see holes on the translation work, because it put too
much weight on just some people. What is done, is a testimony of
dedication and iniciative of the current interpreters. But we must
improve the lex to make a more continuous and productive work, to
make things easier to anyone under the blessings of Father Mercurius,
(choosen by us) patron of the interpreters.

Alas, there wasn´t this law that allows uses of other languages. It
bounds NR too much on english, closing the path to non-english
speakers. (I will not enter deep on this matter here, I understand
the risk of the Babel´s Tower. But the language bound is a deep
problem on NR that we must not close our eyes to it.)

What allowed much more the use of others languages here was the
praetorial edict (I think issued by the excellent Salix Astur)

Anyway, I´m offended with the post bellow, and we must be very
careful on this kind of adress. Much more worthy to suggest a lex, is
doing the hard and dirty work. Alas, I don´t remember seeing him on
helping us... "who spent over a year working on compramises that
opened this list up to postings in all languages rather than English
only".... Where were him?

This is much pretention for my taste.


Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Interpreter
Plebeian Aedile




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
>
> That was quite amusing.
> You are speaking to a person who fought the Gender
> name lex so citizens could even have a choice, even a
> bad choice in the manner of thier names, who spent
> over a year working on compramises that opened this
> list up to postings in all languages rather than
> English only, Who has fought for Gens having a choice
> to retain thier present structure if and when Gens
> Reform arrives.
>
> The Translaters were my idea, and the Lex that created
> them was largely my work, again opening options for
> citizens.
>
> I have urged that we try mock elections to see if your
> election plan would work better than Giaus Julius
> suggestion, while you and your faction have opted for
> the path of Procrustes. Just as Procrustes had his
> ideal bed that he adjusted people to fit, you and
> yours have your "ideal" election system that you are
> determined to foist on Nova Roma, adjusting the nation
> to fit your aims rather than setting your aims to meet
> the goals and needs of the nation.
>
> Do not try to lecture me on imposing your will on
> others, that is the vice of your faction, not mine.
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Researcher looking for reconstructionist Pagans with military connections
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:24:43 +0200

Salve Raymond,

<How do we know she's not with the CIA?
Nice to hear from you again! and thanks for the 'go get 'em girl' email a
few weeks ago :-)))

I don't think that Paganism is illegal within the military, so I don't think
this will be a problem. I know one Lt Col. in the US Army who does Wiccan
rituals with permission on his base and also did them during Desert Storm.
Supposedly, the Chaplains in some areas are now being versed on the
different types of pagansim.
Anyway, I'll look up his name and forward Patricia Cassia's email to him.
Vale,
Diana Moravia

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:13:45 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I would like to suggest that when some of our senior people and
senators get into the political discussions as we have seen over the
last several days it would be a very good idea to give a simplified
introduction as to what an issue is about. Now I suggested making a
separate list for heavy political arguments but it was suggested that
they should be left on this list to make people realize the realities
of Res Republica. That point is fair enough but when people are
arguing and rearguing over lexes, discussions, who screwed up or
thwarted this or that lex because of conficts with that gens who
formed sub gens for not allowing lex iv etc..etc.

I have been here almost 1 year and am starting to get the hang of the
politics but these discussions for newbies and potential citizens are
enough to scare the ravens off the trees.

For example the last post is talking about some past issue regarding
languages and translations in NR. What the heck is being talked about?
English should be the only official language of NR? this main list
should be English only? translators are overworked and its pointless
to have other languages if their work dosen't get finished? Drusus is
having an unresolved issue with his colleagues regarding a language
reform debate? Beats me for sure! Try and imagine what are newbies
are thinking! To take this language thing a bit farther

Thought on What "Could Have Been " (Learn Latin or Else!)

- Since there is a desire to go back and adhere better to the spirit
of Ancient Rome I propose that the only official language of NR be
the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR should
be required to be proficient in the language and pass a series of
tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays, reading
comprehension etc. I studied Spanish and French; on the average,
contrary to what these " learn language in 10 days" tapes say ", it
takes about 3 years to learn a Latin based language so you can have
reasonable intelligent conversation and good writing skills; mind you
it took 11 years of studying English to be able to be proficient
enough to write exams at university level. This three year average I
got from the Berlitz school of languages. Coin Greek and other
oriental languages with different alphabets etc take double that
time. The rest of us should be given 36 months to become proficient
or lose our citizenship to become an associate only. I can learn
quick enough with my language back ground; just those cases for the
nouns sure slow me down!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] PS - Latin /citizenship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:43:04 -0000

Salvete,

One more point; I checked the web and reference books. You had to be
able to speak Latin as one of the requirements to achieve Roman
citizenship. The only exception th this was the Greeks since the
Romans considered them as equals as far as being civilized went; also
Greek was apparently the language of commerce throughout the Roman
Empire thanks to Alexander's conquests 250 years before.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus <l_c_sardonicus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:44:53 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Quintus Lanius Paulinus,

You said and I snipped, "For example the last post is talking about some past issue regarding
languages and translations in NR. What the heck is being talked about?
English should be the only official language of NR?"

In order to facilitate communications throughout Nova Roma, it was necessary to define an official language. The following lex sets policy on language and provides for translations of official documents and announcements.

http://novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-ii.html

There is an old joke...What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual. What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual. What do you call someone that speaks one language? American.

I hope this doesn't sound self-serving, but this micronation of ours was founded by english speaking persons living in the United States. Due to that simple fact, the official language defaulted to english. If Nova Roma had been founded in Italy, I have no doubt that the official language would be Italian.

Efforts are being made towards accomodating people who speak other languages by utilizing the Decuriae Interpretes. Perhaps you'd like to offer your services?

Vale,
LCS


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@lucent.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:55:54 -0000

Salve Quinte Lani Pauline et Salvete Omnes,

It is an interesting proposal you have there, Quintus. Certainly, I
agree with you that, as Romans, we should learn or relearn Latin.
Requiring a degree of Latin fluency in an applicant for citizenship
would, however, severely restrict the future growth of Nova Roma. On
the other hand, not having a Latin fluency requirement for our
citizens would not be a real incentive for learning the language.
Latin should be our linqua franca, not English. At best, English
should be a second language. If the learning of Latin is not
enforced, Nova Roma could be much like Ireland, where Irish Gallic is
an official language and is officially encouraged; but, because there
are few requrements for learning the language and no real requirement
for fluency in it, it continues to die, whereas the use of English in
the country continues to grow.

I do not believe that some sort of membership in Nova Roma should be
denied to non-Latin-speaking applicants. Perhaps that membership
could be as an associate of Nova Roma. Then, after passing a test in
written Latin at a fluency requirement that is deemed acceptable for
citizenship, full citizenship could be granted.

Note that I'm referring to written Latin v spoken Latin. Spoken
Latin can only be perfected as Latin-speakers deal more with each
other face-to-face. Written Latin, though, is enough for us to
communicate with each other via emails and to enjoy reading classical
Roman literature in the original, thus advancing us culturally.

I would not reject the idea that all current citizens should be
required eventually to pass a test in written Latin, as aspirants, or
associates, who cannot become citizens until they pass such a test
would be justifiably critical of what would seem to be a double
standard, that is, if current citizens are not required to know Latin.

As one who has to relearn Latin, I would be classified as an
associate under this proposal. Thankfully, I am already a citizen,
but I do intend to relearn Latin and to use it.

Vale et Valete,

Titus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I would like to suggest that when some of our senior people and
> senators get into the political discussions as we have seen over
the
> last several days it would be a very good idea to give a simplified
> introduction as to what an issue is about. Now I suggested making a
> separate list for heavy political arguments but it was suggested
that
> they should be left on this list to make people realize the
realities
> of Res Republica. That point is fair enough but when people are
> arguing and rearguing over lexes, discussions, who screwed up or
> thwarted this or that lex because of conficts with that gens who
> formed sub gens for not allowing lex iv etc..etc.
>
> I have been here almost 1 year and am starting to get the hang of
the
> politics but these discussions for newbies and potential citizens
are
> enough to scare the ravens off the trees.
>
> For example the last post is talking about some past issue
regarding
> languages and translations in NR. What the heck is being talked
about?
> English should be the only official language of NR? this main list
> should be English only? translators are overworked and its
pointless
> to have other languages if their work dosen't get finished? Drusus
is
> having an unresolved issue with his colleagues regarding a language
> reform debate? Beats me for sure! Try and imagine what are newbies
> are thinking! To take this language thing a bit farther
>
> Thought on What "Could Have Been " (Learn Latin or Else!)
>
> - Since there is a desire to go back and adhere better to the spirit
> of Ancient Rome I propose that the only official language of NR be
> the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR
should
> be required to be proficient in the language and pass a series of
> tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays, reading
> comprehension etc. I studied Spanish and French; on the average,
> contrary to what these " learn language in 10 days" tapes say ", it
> takes about 3 years to learn a Latin based language so you can have
> reasonable intelligent conversation and good writing skills; mind
you
> it took 11 years of studying English to be able to be proficient
> enough to write exams at university level. This three year average
I
> got from the Berlitz school of languages. Coin Greek and other
> oriental languages with different alphabets etc take double that
> time. The rest of us should be given 36 months to become proficient
> or lose our citizenship to become an associate only. I can learn
> quick enough with my language back ground; just those cases for the
> nouns sure slow me down!
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Would have, Could Have, low Tech Rome
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus <l_c_sardonicus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

"...In Greece, some areas considered women unclean during
that time and she was isolated to some extent..."

I ran across the following during a brief search.

"The origins of this small wonder, the tampon, reach far back into recorded history. The ancient Egyptians fashioned disposable tampons from softened papyrus. The Greek physician Hippocrates, writing in the fifth century B.C., described another type of tampon, which was made of lint wrapped around lightweight wood. Elsewhere, women improvised from the materials at hand: in Rome, it was wool; in Japan, paper; in Indonesia, vegetable fibers; in Equatorial Africa, rolls of grass."

http://www.tampax.com/en_us/pages/common.shtml?pageid=zn0006

Vale,
LCS




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:16:24 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus
<l_c_sardonicus@y...> wrote:
> Salve Luci Corneli Sardonice
>
>>
> http://novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-ii.html
>
> There is an old joke...What do you call someone who speaks three
languages? Trilingual. What do you call someone who speaks two
languages? Bilingual. What do you call someone that speaks one
language? American.

Quintus - well in North America you can drive 4000 miles from say Fla
to Alaska and there is English. You and drive 400 miles in Europe and
go through several languages. Europe has more reasons for being bi or
trilingual. In the middle ages the official world language of the
educated Europeans.
>
> I hope this doesn't sound self-serving, but this micronation of
ours was founded by english speaking persons living in the United
States. Due to that simple fact, the official language defaulted to
english. If Nova Roma had been founded in Italy, I have no doubt
that the official language would be Italian.


Quintus - I'm sending you a private note in a second.
>
> Efforts are being made towards accomodating people who speak other
languages by utilizing the Decuriae Interpretes. Perhaps you'd like
to offer your services?


Quintus - Sure, I will be glad to be of any assistance.For very
important things I can get my Latina wife to proof read final texts.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
> Vale,
> LCS
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Senate is now in session
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:49:52 +0200

Salvete citizens of Nova Roma!

The auspices were taken by Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur and having
found to be propitious, Junior Consul T Labienus Fortunatus has convened the
Senate. The discussions began at 1 AM Roman time on June 26 and will
continue through 1 AM Roman time on June 29th. Voting shall start
immediately thereafter, lasting until 1 AM Roman time on July 1st.

Since July 1st is a dies nefastus* and is not suitable for voting following
the decreta of the Collegium Pontificum, Consul T Labienus Fortunatus
strongly recommended that all senatores vote on June 29 or June 30 which are
dies comitiales**.

For the information of the citizens of Nova Roma, here is a brief version of
the Senate's agenda:

I. Permission for Diana Moravia Aventina to organize a Gallo-Roman weekend
in Tongeren, Gallia next year in Nova Roma's name.

II. Permission for Gaius Lanius Falco to print Nova Roman business cards and
to use the Nova Roma flag on these cards for the purpose of publicizing Nova
Roma.

III. The approval of an application for sponsorship of Legio XXI commanded
by Kaeso Maximius Tiberius.

*A dies nefastus is a day on which no legal action or public voting may
occur.
**A dies comitalis is a day on which citizens may vote on political or
criminal matters.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus <l_c_sardonicus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 07:50:09 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Tite Maxente Vere,

Titus Maxentius Verus <jgrady@lucent.com> wrote: I do not believe that some sort of membership in Nova Roma should be
denied to non-Latin-speaking applicants. Perhaps that membership
could be as an associate of Nova Roma. Then, after passing a test in
written Latin at a fluency requirement that is deemed acceptable for
citizenship, full citizenship could be granted.

Learning latin is an admirable pursuit, but I can't see it as a prerequisite for full citizenship at this time. Without full citizenship, one cannot hold public office. Of the things I expect of a Magistrate serving Nova Roma, facility with written latin isn't currently high on the list.

As a side note, at one time there were several files posted to the group that contained begining lessons in Latin. I believe these were written by someone who is no longer a member of Nova Roma. Are these files still around somewhere accessible?

Vale,
LCS


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	TiAnO <tiberius_ann@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:10:16 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete amici,

Roscia Annaea Pia und ich werden die nächsten 2 Wochen in den Ferien sein. Wir besuchen die hispanischen Inseln und machen einen kleinen Abstecher mit einer Trireme nach Karthago.

Ich wünsche allen eine schöne Zeit, TiAnO

English translation:

Roscia Annaea Pia and I will be on holiday for the next 2 weeks. We will be visiting the hispanic islands and taking a trireme to Carthage.

I wish everyone a beautiful time, TiAnO



Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO) Factio Praesina
Lictor curiatus
Translator linguae Germanicae
Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris
Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:32:31 -0000

Salve Tiberi!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I am jealous for sure! Have a great safe trip and I
look forward to hearing about your adventures. God's speed!

Regards,

Quintus




--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, TiAnO <tiberius_ann@y...> wrote:
> Salvete amici,
>
> Roscia Annaea Pia und ich werden die nächsten 2 Wochen in den
Ferien sein. Wir besuchen die hispanischen Inseln und machen einen
kleinen Abstecher mit einer Trireme nach Karthago.
>
> Ich wünsche allen eine schöne Zeit, TiAnO
>
> English translation:
>
> Roscia Annaea Pia and I will be on holiday for the next 2 weeks. We
will be visiting the hispanic islands and taking a trireme to
Carthage.
>
> I wish everyone a beautiful time, TiAnO
>
>
>
> Tiberius Annaeus Otho (TiAnO) Factio Praesina
> Lictor curiatus
> Translator linguae Germanicae
> Paterfamilias gentis Annaearum
> Praefectus scribarum regionis Germaniae Superioris
> Tribunus laticlavius militum legionis XI CPF
> Homepage: http://www.tiano.ch.tt
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Digest No 672
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:38:41 -0400

Salvete,
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:09:59 +0200
From: "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Subject: RE: Re: Election proposal

Salvete,
<SNIP (something I wish more posters would do...)
Fortunately C Minucius, you are not one of my assistants because I would be
cringing every time you posted. But then again, what is your job in the
Cohors Consulis anyway? "Accensus Ordinarius" in charge of verbally
intimidating everyone on the mainlist that disagrees with the proposals of
the Cohors Consulis?

And if that isn't your specific job, then why the constant chip on your
shoulder? Today alone, at a glance I can count 3 emails where you sounded
as if you were looking for a fight...

But hey, you can write what you want-- I believe in freedom of speech: both
yours and my own.

Vale, Diana Moravia


L Equitius: So, Diana, you are not the only one to notice. There seems to
be a few henchmen on this list. This reminds me of how kindergardeners
operate when they are doing something, "But those guys are doing ...." You
know deflecting attention from their own actions. Or perhaps even more apt,
the "Good Cop, Bad Cop" scenario.

BTW, Who are the "BONI"? Are these real people or just another way of saying
the nebulous "They"? Is there a list, and do the "Boni" have a webpage, like
the 'Cohors'?
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:14:37 -0000
From: "christyacb" <bryanta003@hawaii.rr.com>
Subject: Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could
Have)

Salvete,

Back in the archives, and I do apologize for not
recalling the exact period for reference, this came
up more than once. As is hinted in this thread, on
one such occasion, LCSF resigned temporarily when
several of his gens members wanted to start out on
their own with a gens of their own. But that wasn't
the only time the organization of the gentes was an
issue.

By being required to join a gens before even aquiring
actual citizenship, NR effectively forces prospective
civis to sign up for a lifetime relationship with
people they don't really know...


Why not combine all those ideas into something that
allows some flexibility while preserving the idea of
Roman bond making?

At any point, they may apply to join a gens.

Let loose! :)

Valete, Christy Nemo

L Equitius: There is a Cenosorial Edictum that allows people to leave a gens
should they feel compelled to do so. The procedure is outlined:
EDICTUM CENSORIBUS DE LIBERTATE GENTILIUM
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/censor-2002-09-26.html

Valete, Lucius Equitius

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Digest No 673
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:38:47 -0400

L Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:44:31 -0400
> From: "Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
> Subject: Simulations, Mock Elections &c.
>
> Sp. Postumius Tubertus L. Sicinio Druso S.P.D.
>
> Salve,
>
> > Perhaps next year we will have a Consul who will allow
> > you to test a voting reform plan. Untill then my
> > advice remains the same. Do not vote for any plan that
> > hasn't been tested.
> >
> > Our biggest problem in the last election cycle was in
> > the Plebian assembly, not in the Centuries.

L Equitius: Very good point Senator Drusus, I hope this "tree is seen
through the forest".
I'm not convinced that anything needs to be done other than the Censores
reapportion the Plebian Tribes to include in each Tribe those who actually
vote.


> Respectfully, Druse, I should hope they don't plan on holding a mock
election. As some have tried to bring you to understanding, the problem with
holding a mock election is the simple fact that it will not be taken
seriously by the voters...

L Equitius: This is why I suggested that when we hold an election were we
*Count* the votes using various formulae!!!
Then we could 'go' with the version that gives the clearest results. Thus,
it won't be a "mock" election.
However, to be fair we must elect those magistrates who are selected by the
Lex/formula that's in currently in effect.

> And, to comment on your first point, who do _you_ propose to be this
'great' consul you so eagerly desire to see in office?
>
> Vale,
>
> Sp. Postumius Tubertus
> Citizen of Nova Roma


> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:14:17 -0000
> From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
> Subject: Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could
Have)
>
> >
> > In the interests of regaining civility on this list, and regarding
<Snip>
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus
> >
> >
> >
> >Salve Luci Corneli Sardonice,
>
> I'll be brief because politics discussed were before my time.
> Nevertheless I see that gens Cornelius is the biggest 100+ citizens.
> Say what you like but your family must be doing something right to
> have attraced 1/4 of our "active" population. What's the recepie?
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus

L Equitius: Start by having the nomen "Cornelius" or "Iulius", then be
omni-present online.
Also, Sulla's a really convivial, friendly and helpful guy too. Sometimes
annoyingly so.

Valete

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Researcher looking for reconstructionist Pagans with military connections
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:04:35 -0400

Salvete Omnes,

>From our dearest Diana Moravia:

"I don't think that Paganism is illegal within the military, so I don't think
this will be a problem. I know one Lt Col. in the US Army who does Wiccan
rituals with permission on his base and also did them during Desert Storm.
Supposedly, the Chaplains in some areas are now being versed on the
different types of pagansim.
Anyway, I'll look up his name and forward Patricia Cassia's email to him."

>From one going into the Navy, I can tell you in full certainty that Paganism, Wicca, and a lot of other not so highly populated religions are not illegal within the military. In fact, the military is not permitted to ban a religion, unless irrefutable facts are presented which show that the beliefs of the religion condone and mandate willful harm to a person, animal, or to the property of another. So far as I have practiced, none of these apply to Wicca, nor to any other form of Paganism.

I hope this answers some questions. When I find the official information regarding this, I'll post it here, and make sure it gets to the beginning of this thread.

Vale,

Sp. Postumius Tubertus

"Nam nemo sine vitiis nascitur; optimus ille est qui minima habet." -- Q. Horatius Flaccus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia" <arnamentia_aurelia@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:08:05 -0000

Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus <l_c_sardonicus@y...> wrote:
> Learning latin is an admirable pursuit, but I can't see it as a
prerequisite for full citizenship at this time. Without full
citizenship, one cannot hold public office.

Salve,

I agree with your statement. Latin is important, of course. But I
think what we all want is a more active population. Limiting a
person's ability to participate in Nova Roma will only encourage them
to drop out. Since I have been here, I have learned SO much from all
of you. I would hate to see that opportunity be taken away from
future citizens.

vale bene,
Arnamentia Moravia Aurelia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT)

You wouldn't be doing any work at all if I hadn't done
the work to set up your postions.

As for the English portions that is directly from a
Senatus Consulta. Talk about a lack of humbleness, you
seem ready to toss the advice of the Senate aside for
your own agenda.

Remove the English portions and that lex never would
have passed.

Comprimises also seems to be beyond your grasp.

--- Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
wrote:
> WHAT A HUMBLENESS!
>
> Oh, my! The interpreters works like horses and there
> is people trying
> to get our sweat for political reasons!
>
> By the way, there is interpreters who are thinking
> about changes on
> Lex de Linguis Publicis, we are discussing on our
> working list. The
> law is not more suitable, and it is not well
> written. We do use it,
> because dura lex sed lex, but something better must
> come. Like lex de
> censo, lex de linguis publicis creates the
> interpreters, but do not
> give a true workable path to do the job. But this is
> a matter for
> later, not now.
>
> That is why you see holes on the translation work,
> because it put too
> much weight on just some people. What is done, is a
> testimony of
> dedication and iniciative of the current
> interpreters. But we must
> improve the lex to make a more continuous and
> productive work, to
> make things easier to anyone under the blessings of
> Father Mercurius,
> (choosen by us) patron of the interpreters.
>
> Alas, there wasn´t this law that allows uses of
> other languages. It
> bounds NR too much on english, closing the path to
> non-english
> speakers. (I will not enter deep on this matter
> here, I understand
> the risk of the Babel´s Tower. But the language
> bound is a deep
> problem on NR that we must not close our eyes to
> it.)
>
> What allowed much more the use of others languages
> here was the
> praetorial edict (I think issued by the excellent
> Salix Astur)
>
> Anyway, I´m offended with the post bellow, and we
> must be very
> careful on this kind of adress. Much more worthy to
> suggest a lex, is
> doing the hard and dirty work. Alas, I don´t
> remember seeing him on
> helping us... "who spent over a year working on
> compramises that
> opened this list up to postings in all languages
> rather than English
> only".... Where were him?
>
> This is much pretention for my taste.
>
>
> Vale,
> L. Arminius Faustus
> Interpreter
> Plebeian Aedile
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius
> Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > That was quite amusing.
> > You are speaking to a person who fought the Gender
> > name lex so citizens could even have a choice,
> even a
> > bad choice in the manner of thier names, who spent
> > over a year working on compramises that opened
> this
> > list up to postings in all languages rather than
> > English only, Who has fought for Gens having a
> choice
> > to retain thier present structure if and when Gens
> > Reform arrives.
> >
> > The Translaters were my idea, and the Lex that
> created
> > them was largely my work, again opening options
> for
> > citizens.
> >
> > I have urged that we try mock elections to see if
> your
> > election plan would work better than Giaus Julius
> > suggestion, while you and your faction have opted
> for
> > the path of Procrustes. Just as Procrustes had his
> > ideal bed that he adjusted people to fit, you and
> > yours have your "ideal" election system that you
> are
> > determined to foist on Nova Roma, adjusting the
> nation
> > to fit your aims rather than setting your aims to
> meet
> > the goals and needs of the nation.
> >
> > Do not try to lecture me on imposing your will on
> > others, that is the vice of your faction, not
> mine.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > Roman Citizen
> >
>
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Boni (was Digest No 672)
From:	labienus@novaroma.org
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:16:00 CDT

Salvete Luci Equiti omnesque

> BTW, Who are the "BONI"?

I can't tell you, exactly. I think L Cornelius Sulla may have claimed to be a
member on the Back Alley list. However, I could be misremembering, and would
have to search the archives of that list to be sure.

> Are these real people or just another way of saying the nebulous "They"?

I think they're real people. They generated over three hundred messages on
their list in this month alone.

> Is there a list, and do the "Boni" have a webpage, like the 'Cohors'?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boni_nr/

The list presents itself as belonging to "A Nova Roman Faction dedicated to
preserving the traditions of the Mos Maiorum". Unlike my collega's cohors, the
list of its members is secret.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: LUDI VENETA (Factio Veneta)
From:	"Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus" <ahenobarbus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:33:18 -0700

Thank you, thank you. Iaculator is very glad to be back. He was on hiatus
as his sponsor was gripped by dispatches of a family member's recent
deployment to Mesopotamia, so we missed a lot of the big games (Megalensia
particularly). I am looking forward to sponsoring his future games too.
Maybe he can go on to beat the Greens in the future.

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re:
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:35:01 -0400 (EDT)

Master Nemo;

The situation with Gens was there when I joined. However, like
yourself, I had some reservations about joining with people tht I don't
know. After some twenty yers of historical reenactment were you atually
spend more time with your unit than with members of all but your
immediate family, caution is a good thing.

There are several Gens in Nova Roma who do act in concert as a "family"
and if that pleases them fine. Their are other Gens which are more open
and do not attempt that aspect of Gens Life. My Gens does not have a
Weblist, and although I have mentioned the possibility on a couple of
occasions the majority have not responded. However, I believe I can say
we are friends and we can commuicate with each other without rancor,
which is someting to my mind.. There is an idea in regard to Gens that
should be looked upon more as clubs or Sodalitis, and operate undr thier
own charters. Since I have founded and operte within two such Sodalitis
(Militarum and Egressus), I feel comfortable with that idea, since I
consider those who work with me in th Sodalitis as much in my "extended
family" as those in my Gens. There may well be some in this micronation
who will be horrified at this idea, but they have probably been
horrified brfore by my ideas, and the sky has not yet fallen!!!

By all means be as cautious as you feel is necessary for yourself. You
may join the Militarium with being a Citizen of Nova Roma if you wish to
participate therein as a "Militarium Socci " Please yourself, my
friend, just as long as you do not endeaor to do so at anothers expense
(Grin!!!!!!!!!!).

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:55:30 -0400

Salve

Quintus Lanius Paulinus said in part

"propose that the only official language of NR be the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR should be required to be proficient in the language and pass a series of tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays, reading comprehension etc. "

While I hope in the future Latin is again a spoken language and is used by the Nova Romans in the City of Nova Roma, if this lex is adopted and implemented it will be the end of my time in NR. I tried to learn three different languages and can now count to ten in four. I do not have a talent for languages and at 45 I am not likely to develop one in the near future. Please think very carefully before you consider this as a lex.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



----- Original Message -----
From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:13 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR


Salvete omnes,

I would like to suggest that when some of our senior people and
senators get into the political discussions as we have seen over the
last several days it would be a very good idea to give a simplified
introduction as to what an issue is about. Now I suggested making a
separate list for heavy political arguments but it was suggested that
they should be left on this list to make people realize the realities
of Res Republica. That point is fair enough but when people are
arguing and rearguing over lexes, discussions, who screwed up or
thwarted this or that lex because of conficts with that gens who
formed sub gens for not allowing lex iv etc..etc.

I have been here almost 1 year and am starting to get the hang of the
politics but these discussions for newbies and potential citizens are
enough to scare the ravens off the trees.

For example the last post is talking about some past issue regarding
languages and translations in NR. What the heck is being talked about?
English should be the only official language of NR? this main list
should be English only? translators are overworked and its pointless
to have other languages if their work dosen't get finished? Drusus is
having an unresolved issue with his colleagues regarding a language
reform debate? Beats me for sure! Try and imagine what are newbies
are thinking! To take this language thing a bit farther

Thought on What "Could Have Been " (Learn Latin or Else!)

- Since there is a desire to go back and adhere better to the spirit
of Ancient Rome I propose that the only official language of NR be
the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR should
be required to be proficient in the language and pass a series of
tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays, reading
comprehension etc. I studied Spanish and French; on the average,
contrary to what these " learn language in 10 days" tapes say ", it
takes about 3 years to learn a Latin based language so you can have
reasonable intelligent conversation and good writing skills; mind you
it took 11 years of studying English to be able to be proficient
enough to write exams at university level. This three year average I
got from the Berlitz school of languages. Coin Greek and other
oriental languages with different alphabets etc take double that
time. The rest of us should be given 36 months to become proficient
or lose our citizenship to become an associate only. I can learn
quick enough with my language back ground; just those cases for the
nouns sure slow me down!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:02:24 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator L. Sicini Druse.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> The Gender issue arose before I became a citizen, so I had no input
> on attempting to do the right thing (encourage the proper use of
> Roman Names) in the wrong way.

I fully agree that to encourage the proper use of Roman names is "the
right thing". I also agree in that the gender name lex does not try
to promote it in the right way.

> The Language issuse was largely a quirk of some people who weren't
> exacly traditionalists.

I don't know if they were what you continue to call "traditionalists"
or no, given that there is no way to check who belongs to
which "faction". Or is there perhaps a roll of "traditionalists"?
:-).

> I'm far more in agreement with the Traditionalists than with the
> Modernists. We want a Nova Roma that is as Roman as possible, while
> the Modernists have no qualms about dropping much of our culture
> for modern ideas.

Do you mean "modern ideas" like our current gens system? Why do you
continue to claim that you defend Roman tradition when it is so
clearly obvious that it is not the case?

> Sir, I'm intrested in Roman culture, if I had any intrest in
> Utopian Social Engineering I would join or start a group that had
> that as it's primary focus rather than seeking to impose those
> alien ideas on a group that was founded for another purpose
> entirely.

The fact is that I am not interested at all in "utopian social
engineering". That is why I want to change our current gens system to
something that resembles the Roman historical model. As it is now, it
simply looks like something taken right out from Stalin's mind :-).

> Nova Roma was founded to promote the Religio and Roman Culture. We
> haven't accomplished as much as we could have in that area because
> of constant fights over the introduction of ideas that have little
> or nothing to do with Roma.

I couldn't agree more. The problem is that you do not stand in that
fight where you claim to be standing.

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Titus Maxentius Verus" <jgrady@lucent.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:04:51 -0000

Salve, Tiberi Galini Pauline,

Perhaps in our enthusiasm for Latin, we're living in a dream world.
We certainly would not want to lose any citizens.

A certain proficiency in Latin is not unattainable, though, for most
people. I am referring to written Latin, not spoken Latin. If a Lex
is not the way to go in this matter, we should at least find ways to
encourage the learning and greater use of Latin in Nova Roma.

Vale,

Titus Maxentius Verus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus said in part
>
> "propose that the only official language of NR be the language of
the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR should be required to
be proficient in the language and pass a series of tests in Latin
proficiency; for example writing essays, reading comprehension etc. "
>
> While I hope in the future Latin is again a spoken language and is
used by the Nova Romans in the City of Nova Roma, if this lex is
adopted and implemented it will be the end of my time in NR. I tried
to learn three different languages and can now count to ten in four.
I do not have a talent for languages and at 45 I am not likely to
develop one in the near future. Please think very carefully before
you consider this as a lex.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:13 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory
Latin for NR
>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I would like to suggest that when some of our senior people and
> senators get into the political discussions as we have seen over
the
> last several days it would be a very good idea to give a
simplified
> introduction as to what an issue is about. Now I suggested making
a
> separate list for heavy political arguments but it was suggested
that
> they should be left on this list to make people realize the
realities
> of Res Republica. That point is fair enough but when people are
> arguing and rearguing over lexes, discussions, who screwed up or
> thwarted this or that lex because of conficts with that gens who
> formed sub gens for not allowing lex iv etc..etc.
>
> I have been here almost 1 year and am starting to get the hang of
the
> politics but these discussions for newbies and potential citizens
are
> enough to scare the ravens off the trees.
>
> For example the last post is talking about some past issue
regarding
> languages and translations in NR. What the heck is being talked
about?
> English should be the only official language of NR? this main
list
> should be English only? translators are overworked and its
pointless
> to have other languages if their work dosen't get finished?
Drusus is
> having an unresolved issue with his colleagues regarding a
language
> reform debate? Beats me for sure! Try and imagine what are
newbies
> are thinking! To take this language thing a bit farther
>
> Thought on What "Could Have Been " (Learn Latin or Else!)
>
> - Since there is a desire to go back and adhere better to the
spirit
> of Ancient Rome I propose that the only official language of NR
be
> the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR
should
> be required to be proficient in the language and pass a series of
> tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays, reading
> comprehension etc. I studied Spanish and French; on the average,
> contrary to what these " learn language in 10 days" tapes say ",
it
> takes about 3 years to learn a Latin based language so you can
have
> reasonable intelligent conversation and good writing skills; mind
you
> it took 11 years of studying English to be able to be proficient
> enough to write exams at university level. This three year
average I
> got from the Berlitz school of languages. Coin Greek and other
> oriental languages with different alphabets etc take double that
> time. The rest of us should be given 36 months to become
proficient
> or lose our citizenship to become an associate only. I can learn
> quick enough with my language back ground; just those cases for
the
> nouns sure slow me down!
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <hadrianus@3commando.org>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:14:41 -0400

Salve,


<snip>
- Since there is a desire to go back and adhere better to the spirit
of Ancient Rome I propose that the only official language of NR be
the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR should
be required to be proficient in the language and pass a series of
tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays, reading
comprehension etc. I studied Spanish and French; on the average,
contrary to what these " learn language in 10 days" tapes say ", it
takes about 3 years to learn a Latin based language so you can have
reasonable intelligent conversation and good writing skills; mind you
it took 11 years of studying English to be able to be proficient
enough to write exams at university level. This three year average I
got from the Berlitz school of languages. Coin Greek and other
oriental languages with different alphabets etc take double that
time. The rest of us should be given 36 months to become proficient
or lose our citizenship to become an associate only. I can learn
quick enough with my language back ground; just those cases for the
nouns sure slow me down!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

<snip>

While it would be a wonderful thing if all of us could be proficient in
Latin, and it is surely an excellent long-term goal for NR (emphasis on
the long) requiring it any time soon would be the death of NR. You would
lose all but a handful of citizens, and I can not imagine the population
of NR would ever recover. Instead of a thriving and diverse community
composed of citizens from all backgrounds and walks-of-life, we would be
left with an exclusive club of classicists, linguists, and other
academics who have the educational background that most of us lack. I
would love to be proficient in Latin again. I had 4 years of it in High
School but that was almost 15 years ago although much of it has faded,
and I simply do not have the financial resources or time to return to
school at this time in my life. Perhaps someday, but not now. I am sure
there are many other citizens in similar positions as mine, as well as
people who simply have difficulty learning new languages. To exclude
such a large segment of NR's population would be unfair and disastrous
to the Res Publica.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Propraetor Nova Britannia
Lictor
Minerva Templi Sacerdotes

Patria est communis omnium parens.
"Our native land is the common parent of us all." - Cicero

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] TV Reminder
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:18:30 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

A reminder that the TV mini-series "Caesar" begins this Sunday (June
29th) on cable station TNT in the US. It runs 4 hours over two
nights.

>From what I have read, it should be entertaining enough; however, I
would not use it as study material for a hisotry test ;-O.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:18:41 -0400

Salve Titus Maxentius Verus

I agree Latin should be encouraged but not required .

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: Titus Maxentius Verus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 1:04 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Compulsory Latin for NR


Salve, Tiberi Galini Pauline,

Perhaps in our enthusiasm for Latin, we're living in a dream world.
We certainly would not want to lose any citizens.

A certain proficiency in Latin is not unattainable, though, for most
people. I am referring to written Latin, not spoken Latin. If a Lex
is not the way to go in this matter, we should at least find ways to
encourage the learning and greater use of Latin in Nova Roma.

Vale,

Titus Maxentius Verus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus said in part
>
> "propose that the only official language of NR be the language of
the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR should be required to
be proficient in the language and pass a series of tests in Latin
proficiency; for example writing essays, reading comprehension etc. "
>
> While I hope in the future Latin is again a spoken language and is
used by the Nova Romans in the City of Nova Roma, if this lex is
adopted and implemented it will be the end of my time in NR. I tried
to learn three different languages and can now count to ten in four.
I do not have a talent for languages and at 45 I am not likely to
develop one in the near future. Please think very carefully before
you consider this as a lex.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:13 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory
Latin for NR
>
>
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I would like to suggest that when some of our senior people and
> senators get into the political discussions as we have seen over
the
> last several days it would be a very good idea to give a
simplified
> introduction as to what an issue is about. Now I suggested making
a
> separate list for heavy political arguments but it was suggested
that
> they should be left on this list to make people realize the
realities
> of Res Republica. That point is fair enough but when people are
> arguing and rearguing over lexes, discussions, who screwed up or
> thwarted this or that lex because of conficts with that gens who
> formed sub gens for not allowing lex iv etc..etc.
>
> I have been here almost 1 year and am starting to get the hang of
the
> politics but these discussions for newbies and potential citizens
are
> enough to scare the ravens off the trees.
>
> For example the last post is talking about some past issue
regarding
> languages and translations in NR. What the heck is being talked
about?
> English should be the only official language of NR? this main
list
> should be English only? translators are overworked and its
pointless
> to have other languages if their work dosen't get finished?
Drusus is
> having an unresolved issue with his colleagues regarding a
language
> reform debate? Beats me for sure! Try and imagine what are
newbies
> are thinking! To take this language thing a bit farther
>
> Thought on What "Could Have Been " (Learn Latin or Else!)
>
> - Since there is a desire to go back and adhere better to the
spirit
> of Ancient Rome I propose that the only official language of NR
be
> the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR
should
> be required to be proficient in the language and pass a series of
> tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays, reading
> comprehension etc. I studied Spanish and French; on the average,
> contrary to what these " learn language in 10 days" tapes say ",
it
> takes about 3 years to learn a Latin based language so you can
have
> reasonable intelligent conversation and good writing skills; mind
you
> it took 11 years of studying English to be able to be proficient
> enough to write exams at university level. This three year
average I
> got from the Berlitz school of languages. Coin Greek and other
> oriental languages with different alphabets etc take double that
> time. The rest of us should be given 36 months to become
proficient
> or lose our citizenship to become an associate only. I can learn
> quick enough with my language back ground; just those cases for
the
> nouns sure slow me down!
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus Lanius Paulinus
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:22:53 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, Q. Lani Pauline.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I would like to suggest that when some of our senior people and
> senators get into the political discussions as we have seen over
> the last several days it would be a very good idea to give a
> simplified introduction as to what an issue is about. Now I
> suggested making a separate list for heavy political arguments but
> it was suggested that they should be left on this list to make
> people realize the realities of Res Republica. That point is fair
> enough but when people are arguing and rearguing over lexes,
> discussions, who screwed up or thwarted this or that lex because of
> conficts with that gens who formed sub gens for not allowing lex iv
> etc..etc.
>
> I have been here almost 1 year and am starting to get the hang of
> the politics but these discussions for newbies and potential
> citizens are enough to scare the ravens off the trees.

I understand how that could happen. I would like to offer my
apologies to any new citizen around if I have been talking too
abstrusely about politics lately. Please do not be scared :-).

> For example the last post is talking about some past issue
> regarding languages and translations in NR. What the heck is being
> talked about? English should be the only official language of NR?
> this main list should be English only? translators are overworked
> and its pointless to have other languages if their work dosen't get
> finished? Drusus is having an unresolved issue with his colleagues
> regarding a language reform debate? Beats me for sure! Try and
> imagine what are newbies are thinking! To take this language thing
> a bit farther

I think that senator L. Sicinius Drusus is referring to the following
law:
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-ii.html
This law defines English as the official language of the Republic of
Nova Roma.

> Thought on What "Could Have Been " (Learn Latin or Else!)
>
> - Since there is a desire to go back and adhere better to the spirit
> of Ancient Rome I propose that the only official language of NR be
> the language of the Roman Empire, Latin. People coming into NR
> should be required to be proficient in the language and pass a
> series of tests in Latin proficiency; for example writing essays,
> reading comprehension etc. I studied Spanish and French; on the
> average, contrary to what these " learn language in 10 days" tapes
> say ", it takes about 3 years to learn a Latin based language so
> you can have reasonable intelligent conversation and good writing
> skills; mind you it took 11 years of studying English to be able to
> be proficient enough to write exams at university level. This three
> year average I got from the Berlitz school of languages. Coin Greek
> and other oriental languages with different alphabets etc take
> double that time. The rest of us should be given 36 months to
> become proficient or lose our citizenship to become an associate
> only. I can learn quick enough with my language back ground; just
> those cases for the nouns sure slow me down!

I agree with you, Quinte Lani, in that Latin, and no other language,
should be the official language of Nova Roma. In my opinion, all
those arguments like "if Nova Roma had been founded in France, then
French would be the official language of Nova Roma, but it was
founded on the U.S." have *nothing* to do with the scope of Nova
Roma.

I understand that English will be the working language of Nova Roma
in the foreseeable future, simply because Nova Roma is an
international organisation and English is the Lingua Franca of the
modern world. There is no way to change that. But I do not see the
necessity to make English the offcial language of Nova Roma.

In my opinion, Latin should be declared the official language of Nova
Roma. That would not mean that people would have to speak Latin
forcibly, or that leges and edicta have to be written in Latin. It
would mean that the government of Nova Roma would be forced to make
every effort to promote the usage of Latin within Nova Roma.

In the Academia, we are preparing a new plan that will consist of a
series of courses to teach Latin to those willing to learn. We
already have a Latin course, but we will expand beyond that to cover
several years of Latin teaching.

However, I am afraid that I do not agree with you, Quinte Lani, in
that Latin should be required to join Nova Roma. We are here to
*learn* about Rome, not to proof that we already know a lot :-).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:21:38 -0400

Salve Quinte Lani Pauline Amice,

Sententias paucas habeo verbis tuis subscribere. Prime, de examinationibus sunt. Qui administret examinationes de quos dices? Manius Constantinus cum Lingua Latina est sapientior, et Claudius Salix et Spurius Postumius et alii. Sed quo modo, Amice Quinte, probamur? Me probare, submitto partem orationis meae de nece C. Iuli Caesaris, Dictatoris Perpetui Senatus Populique Romani, interfecti anno DCCIX ab Urbe condita. Est sub missione.

(I have a few thoughts to add to yours. First, about the tests. Who should administer these tests? Manius Constantinus is quite wise with Latin, as are Claudius Salix and Spurius Postumius and others. But in what way, my Friend Quintus, are we to be tested? I submit part of my oration on the death of C. Julius Caesar, Perpetual Dictator of the Senate and Roman People, who was killed in the 709th year from the founding of the City to test myself. It is below this mailing.)

Secunde, Anglica Lingua est Lingua Patriae. Lingua mihi docetur annos XVII! Non volo relinquere!

(Second, the English Language is my home Language. I have been taught it for seventeen years! I don't wish to abandon it! (not that you said I had to))

Terti, quo modo simus exsequi verba tua? Sapiens esse te scio, Amice. Me doce!

(Third, in what way are we to implement your words? I know you to be a wise man, Amice. Teach me!)

Hae curae meae sunt.

(These are my concerns.)

Vale,

Spurius Postumius L.f. A.n. Tubertus
Civis Novae Romae, et Amicus Tuus

=====

De Divi Iuli Strage

[I] Idibus Martiis C. Iulio Caesare et M. Antonio consulibus, quando interfectus est,
Senatus Populusque Romanus servatus est tempore parvo, et mos maiorum est restitutus.
Factus magnus Bruto actus est, et aliis patribus honestis, maximus actus in historia Urbis
et provinciarum fuit et est, quippe vivavisset annorum plures, morem maiorum e memoria
captus esset. Sed, gratiam multam sicariis debemus Caesaris, quod ei servaverunt morem
maiorum et ei morem Caesaris corruptum deposuerunt.

[II] Dubitantur facta Caesaris amata esse plebibus, sed iniurias amplioris actas sunt
populo. Et veritas est, Caesar origionem Imperatorum er Imperium Romanum posuit.
Deposuit morem maiorum Rempublicamque et Senatum et populum misere cogit iniurias
imperi Imperatorum Caesar, et mos mores Caesaris hae rempublicam corrumperunt.

[III] Post stipendiis in Gallia, Britannia, et post victoria in bello civili in Cn. Pompeium
Magnum gesto, appellatus "Dictator Perpetuus" est ab Senatu Caesaris Caesar.
Emendationes multas institutit ut cogerit plebem misere iniurias magnas actas ab Patriciis
Caesar. Caesari licuerit cogisse cecidisse ei et verbis posculationibusque populum omnem
Caesaris. Quamquam popularis plebi fuerat, in finis plebi nocuerit.

[IV] Facta multa acta sunt ut eum clarum fecisset C. Iuli Caesaris. De dignitate et honore
eo curavit solum; de populi, et plebibus et patriciis, non curavit Caesar! De eo curavit, et
faciendo eum esse maximus. Appellavisse eum 'Maximus' aut 'Optimus' aut Imperator
populi. Cupivit esse maximus, amplissimus in Roma Caesar! Cupivit tenuisse Urbem
patrium, Urbem populi et Senatus; cupivit tenuisse urbem maiorum!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NOVA roma
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:45:42 -0400 (EDT)

Senator Drusus;

Well, I must agree to your point that the wide period of time recognized
by Nova Roma is indeed confusing. Since many changes occurred over this
period a diligent researcher can find almost any answer to a given
question.

Most of the Legions that we sponsor, are not part of the Republic but
rather find themselves in a period of the Empire since there is much
more data available for that period. However, an empire is esentially a
Dictatorship, and such would be unsatisfactory for our political
purposes, even though very interesting. This is an area that Senator
Fabius has discussed on more than one occasion.

I do not agree however, with your comparison of legion weapons to the
Gens Reform Question. I see no relation to it at all. Weapon technology
cannot be compared to the wide view of human necessities. A sword or a
rifle is an object, and the difference between them is apparent to
anyone who has the most rudimentary of observation tools. Not so with
Social needs, desires, rules and laws, where everyone has thier own
view, and each person looks at each aspect of each element in a
different way, based on the differences that I mentioned in my first
post to you on this subject. So while at first, your comparison sounds
reasonble, until you really get into the various ideas proposed, and
then it becomes obvious that the questions are not nearly as clear cut.

I suspect a lot of my disagreement comes from listening to myself,
rather than someone who is always trying to talk me into something A
holdover from my military days I suppose. (Grin!!!!!!!)

A further consideration, of course, is that few Historians agree on
everything, again based on what the have read, seen, felt and how these
observations strike both their edcation, abilities and their (as always)
culture.

You have labeled several items brought up that differ from our Roman
period to the present day as being "strawmen" or not for consideration,
and I also disagree with that view. Each one of those aspects impacts
severely everything that we do. We certainly cannot ignore those
aspects if we are to build an effective NOVA ROMA.

In your previous comments you have asked of established and valuable
citizens who are striving to work for this cmmon cause, "Why are you
here?" Well I am here as a student to learn more about Rome. I suspect
there are others here who are certainly here for the same reason.
Perhaps we should devote more of our energy to education of those who
have come for that purpose, and less of the energy to arguments on the
finer points of what is more Roman and what less Roman, particularly
since we have not yet established a person or persons from which any
final judgement will be recognized by the majority of those engaged in
building Nova Roma.

Someone else mentioned this similar problem. You are obviously far more
advanced in the history of Rome than I. There are a few new people who
know even less than I do, I would have to suppose. As I have indicated
previously, it really is to those whom we should direct our discussions,
in my view, and the more detailed and politically "loaded" topics
reserved for the areas devoted to those interests. I have said this
before and brought your wrath and severe criticism down upon my head for
even suggesting such a thing, but in truth it has been seen that the
eternal political wrangling on this net, and the competition for a few
to remain in charge of the political considerations have driven many
away from NOVA ROMA. I do not have the answer totally, but I must again
voice my view of the situation.

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucus Audens
Nova Roma Citizen



A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] "As the Tiber Flows TOP SECRET! ADVANCED COPY
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:48:23 -0400

TOP SECRET! ADVANCED COPY "AS THE TIBER FLOWS" EPISODE # MCVII

Good evening Citizens of Nova Roma, or is it NOVA roma, or better still nova ROMA , oh well.

Welcome to the next installation of your favorite Soap Opera

In tonight's episode we will hear someone say : The truth hurts. Not the searching after, the running from.

Well, I have to hand it to "As the Tiber Flows" writers. Though you may not know it, they certainly do think ahead or is behind?. Whatever, they apparently write scripts nearly a year in advance! I suppose I should start from the beginning. I received what appears to be a copy of the script for the episode of "As the Tiber Flows" that is to air in sweeps of 2756 AUC It appeared to be authentic, because it was written on a stack of wooden blocks nailed together. It was accompanied by a note, which read, "Here we go again." I guess I have become so infamous in the soap biz (I know, in my dreams) that I have attracted another informant at another show. Imagine that! Well, I have no way of knowing if this is accurate, or why the writers would write this a year in advance. In fact I'm not even completely sure that I read the script correctly, because the napkins were covered in red stains that appeared to be the result of watered wine, making the script rather difficult to read. Nevertheless, make of it what you will.

Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus and Diana and Quintus Lanius Paulinus and Domitia Paulina will be getting married in a double-ceremony on Tiber Island. From what I can gather, Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus and Diana's most recent nuptials will have been nullified by the revelation that Diana was married to a man named Caius Minucius Scaevola during her missing years on Capri (in spite of the fact that Diana was still married to Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus when she "died," so she really couldn't have legally married anyone else). Whether or not this is the same Caius Minucius Scaevola from "As the Greek World turns upside down" , I cannot be sure, but that would appear to be the case. I cannot determine from the script why these two couples would be getting married together, outside of several references to the four as "the good guys." Anyway, Roma will apparently be quite a different place a year from now. There will be many new faces, and the familiar faces will...still be around...somewhere. Let's have a look.

(The episode begins, as Domitia Paulina and Diana are getting ready with Livia 's help. Domitia Paulina is again wearing Popillia's gown, and Diana is wearing a traditional wedding dress with the veil, except it is bright red.)

Diana: Oh, Lucius Cornelius Sardonicusua and I are finally getting married! I never thought this day would come! Today, everything is right with the world, even though [insert latest world crisis].
(Just then, Caius Minucius Scaevola bursts into the room.)

Diana: Caius Minucius Scaevola ! What are you doing here?
(The opening is played.) In the background Moonlight Serenade by the Glennus Millerius trio plays.

Diana: I know, you're here to win me back! Well, let me tell you, buster, it's not going to happen! Lucius

Cornelius and I are soul mates - always! It's over, Caius Minucius Scaevola !

Caius Minucius Scaevola : Diana, I'm not here to win you back.

Diana: (gasping in shock) You're not?

Caius Minucius Scaevola : No, I've realized that I was only interested in you because I thought you were my lost love Galeria Valeria . The truth is, I'm not attracted to you in the least. I could care less about you. You and Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus act like you are the most important people in Roma, but honestly, the world does not revolve around you.

Livia : That is no way to talk to my sister! We are the good guys!

Caius Minucius Scaevola : Livia , do you ever think of anyone besides yourself? You are by far the most selfish family I have ever had the misfortune of knowing! Maybe if you would all take a look at yourselves in the mirror, you would see that you are most certainly not the "good guys" you make yourselves out to be.

(Diana wakes up from her nightmare screaming in horror.)
Livia : Diana, are you okay?

Diana: Did he just say he...isn't here to win me back?

Domitia Paulina : Yeah, I asked him to come and give me away.

Diana: Why?

Domitia Paulina : Well, he is going to become my father-in-law. And, since the revelation that Quintus Lanius Paulinus is his and Popillia's illegitimate son and not a Cornelius by blood caused Quintus Lanius Paulinus to be ostracized from the family business, in a weird way, Caius Minucius Scaevola is responsible for Quintus Lanius Paulinus and I reuniting.

Diana: But don't you want your father to give you away?

Domitia Paulina : Well, Diana, you know he's far away in...that place where he now lives, and it's hard for him to get away from...that very demanding job of his. So he couldn't make it.
(Meanwhile the guests are arriving. L. Sicinius Drusus arrives with his hair slicked back wearing a Toga. Octavia and Sp. Postumius Tubertus arrive after him. It appears that Octavia has discovered that L. Sicinius Drusus is her father, and L. Sicinius Drusus has become more involved with the Cornelia. Octavia seems to have settled into her role as a mafia princess, because she is wearing leopard skin and has really long fingernails.)

L. Sicinius Drusus: (in a Brooklyn accent) Sweetheart, why are you still with this guy?
Octavia: Pater, I love Sp. Postumius Tubertus!

L. Sicinius Drusus: But he's not made. You can marry a man with potential in the organization - a Cornelius! I won't watch you throw that away to be with this... this... this...

Octavia: Pater!
(Titus Octavius Pius arrives, followed by L. Suetonius Nerva.)

Titus Octavius Pius: L. Suetonius Nerva, it's so good to see you. How long has it been?

L. Suetonius Nerva: Since Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus and Diana's last wedding, I think. How are you?

Titus Octavius Pius: I can't complain.

L. Suetonius Nerva: Where are the boys?

Titus Octavius Pius: Mom is watching them.
(This was the only reference made to Honoria. I assume she is back to being a respected member of the community, and a permanent fixture on the Back alley. ??? Anyway, Helena enters next.)

Helena : (snidely) Oh, hello Titus Octavius Pius. (seductively) L. Suetonius Nerva, let's go dance.

Titus Octavius Pius: (whining) I'm all alone! But that's okay, because I'm supposed to be independent and happy with myself this week. Oh, what the hell, L. Sicinius Drusus, would you like to dance?
(Next, Gnaeus Salix Astur and Herennia arrive with Sempronia and Marcvs Flavivs Fides. Gnaeus Salix Astur and Herennia go to sit down, and have no dialogue for the rest of the wedding. There is, however, a comment jotted in the margin of the script: "If for whatever reason Haley Sparks is still playing Herennia, insert a series of romantic scenes of Gnaeus Salix Astur and Herennia reminiscing about their own wedding.")

Sempronia: Oh, Marcvs Flavivs Fides, do you think someday we'll have a wedding this beautiful?
Marcvs Flavivs Fides: I don't know. I just want to spend the rest of my life with you!

Sempronia: Oh, Marcvs Flavivs Fides, do you remember when we first met? I knew right then and there that we would be together always. You tried to deny it, but I knew you were one of the good guys. I was only 12! Who knew that we would still be together at 13? (Just then, Annia Aurelia Faustina Cornelius, who from what I can gather is the long-lost child Diana had with Caius Minucius Scaevola comes over. She is the same age as Sempronia, somehow.)

Annia Aurelia Faustina : (shrieking) Hello, Marcvs Flavivs Fides! (She hugs him, and then, says snidely...) Hello, Sempronia.

Sempronia: (also snidely) It's so nice to see you again, Aunt Annia Aurelia Faustina .

Annia Aurelia Faustina : (shrieking) Oh, Marcvs Flavivs Fides, didn't we have such a great time at Millennium last night? (sarcastically) It's too bad you couldn't make it, Sempronia.

Sempronia: Look, Annia Aurelia Faustina , I know you're only after Marcvs Flavivs Fides for his money, and it is not going to work! It's over, Annia Aurelia Faustina !
(I should interject here that apparently, Baro, Festus, and Euphemia were killed off in a chariot race crash during February sweeps, and Baro willed all of his sweepstakes winnings to Marcvs Flavivs Fides, for some reason. Anyway, G. Iulius Scaurus and Lollia Paulina arrive next, followed by Poppaea Sabina .)

Poppaea Sabina : G. Iulius Scaurus, do you really think it was wise to bring Lollia Paulina to the wedding? Claudia threatened that there would be retribution if Lollia Paulina attended this wedding.
(Me again: From this comment, I am assuming that by next May, Quintus Lanius Paulinus's plan to "go legit" will have gone awry. ???)

Lollia Paulina : Why don't you stay out of this, you old hag? G. Iulius Scaurus and I love each other, and there is nothing you can do to keep us apart!

Poppaea Sabina : Forgive me, Lollia Paulina , here, why don't you have a drink? (She hands her a glass which is bubbling and has steam coming out of it.)

Lollia Paulina : (obliviously rejecting the drink) G. Iulius Scaurus, let's dance!
(They leave to dance, in spite of the fact that the wedding has not started yet and so by definition the wedding reception has not started yet, as Poppaea Sabina gets an evil, psychotic look on her face.)

Poppaea Sabina : (campily) That girl is the devil - the devil, I tell you! I have to stop her! I will see her dead before she hurts my son.
(She takes a piece of paper out of her purse and holds it, ominously. We see that it consists of letters cut from magazines that read, "Be afraid, be very afraid." She then finds Lollia Paulina 's purse and slips the note into it. Matt comes over to her, and gives her a funny look, but she smiles and pretends everything is normal, and they go to dance. Just then, Aunt Messalina and M. Octavius Solaris arrive. From what I can gather, they will have become a couple by May of 2000.)
Messalina : Oh, M. Octavius Solaris, I'm so happy that you were able to come to the wedding with me. It means a lot to me.

M. Octavius Solaris: Because it's your beloved niece's wedding?

Messalina : No, because it's Diana's wedding. I so enjoy reveling in the great love that she and Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus share. It gives me hope that there can be happy endings for us good guys.
(Just then, Aquilia Severa Cornelius comes over in a wheelchair. OK OK I KNOW)
Aquilia Severa : (shrieking) M. Octavius Solaris, it was so nice of you to come to the wedding as my date!

Messalina : Actually, he's here with me.

Aquilia Severa : (shrieking) Isn't it enough that you caused me to have a stroke, by giving me stress by telling me that M. Octavius Solaris would never want to see me again once he found out what I had done to keep you apart? Do you now want to deprive me of this small bit of happiness?

M. Octavius Solaris: Come on, Aquilia Severa , why don't we go get something to drink?
(They leave together, and Aquilia Severa smirks at Messalina .)

Messalina : You won't get away with this! M. Octavius Solaris and I are the good guys!
(Okay, so I made this part up. Aunt Messalina and Uncle Nut so do not appear anywhere in the script, even though Domitia Paulina is a Corneli and she should conceivably be at Domitia Paulina 's wedding. Anyway, Caius and Baebiana arrive next. Baebiana is obviously pregnant.)

Baebiana: (waving her arms around) Oh, oh, oh, Caius, Caius, Caius, thank you for taking me to this wedding. I, I, I haven't gotten out much, now that I'm pregnant, while you and Livia get to go out and do exciting things whenever you want. (Livia comes over to them.)

Livia: Baebiana, how are you feeling?

Baebiana: (waving her arms around and shrieking) What are you implying? You're insinuating that I am faking this pregnancy, aren't you! Your good friend Herennia has been telling you all sorts of horror stories about me, hasn't she! I have changed! I would give anything in the world to have Gnaeus Salix Astur back, but I know that's not going to happen, so I've cut my losses and I've moved on! Now, I will give anything in the world to have Caius back, and so you see I am giving him a child! I am having Caius's baby, and there's nothing you can do about it!

Livia : Baebiana, I've dealt with people of your ilk before! I don't think you're pregnant with Caius's baby. I think you are really carrying Caius Minucius Scaevola's baby! That's right, I know all about your little fling! I want a paternity test! I'm not falling for this lie again!

Caius: Ladies, please! Can't we be civil about this? (winking) Now, Livia , babe, I got drunk and impregnated

Baebiana, thinking she was you. That's just a situation we've all got to deal with, because I'm one of the good guys. So can you ladies please stop your silly squabbling? We men have more important things to worry about. (He pats them both on the heads.)

Livia : I almost forgot! Everyone, it's time to start the ceremony! Diana and Domitia Paulina are ready!
(The ceremony begins, even though Rick and Abby, Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus and Diana's good friends and Domitia Paulina 's brother and sister-in-law, are absent. Caesariensis is standing at the altar, but he has no lines. The bridesmaids - Octavia, Lollia Paulina , and Livia - walk down the aisle. The brides start to, but are interrupted when Claudia shows up.)

Claudia: (shrieking) You tramp! I will not stand by and let you marry my son! By the way, Diana, I am so happy for you - and you look beautiful.

Diana: Thank you Claudia. It's been a long road, but Lucius Cornelius and I are soulmates - always!

Domitia Paulina : It's over, Claudia! You will never get your claws into Quintus Lanius Paulinus again.

Claudia: (shrieking) At the very least, I want my dress back!

Domitia Paulina : Over my dead body.

Claudia: (thoughtfully, but still shrieking) Hmmm....
(At the altar, Lollia Paulina decides to see what is taking the brides so long. She goes over to them, and finds Claudia.)

Lollia Paulina : (shrieking) Mama, what are you doing here?

Claudia: (shrieking) I said that none of my family was to attend this wedding! Quintus Lanius Paulinus has been disowned and you, my daughter, are not to have anything to do with him!

Lollia Paulina : (shrieking) You can't stop us, Mama, Quintus Lanius Paulinus and I are good guys now!
(Lollia Paulina , Diana, and Domitia Paulina head to the altar, as Claudia takes out her cell phone and dials 1-800-HITMAN.)

Claudia: Yes, I want you to come to Tiber Island. You will find that there is a wedding going on. The bride is blonde, wearing a wedding dress clearly meant for me to wear, and very self-righteous if you ask me. I want you to kill her!
(She then goes to hide in the bushes as Quintus Lanius Paulinus and Domitia Paulina recite their vows.)

Quintus Lanius Paulinus: Domitia Paulina , I love you so much. I've known it since that day I first met you at Millennium. All I wanted, right from then, was to spend the rest of my life with you. That's why I took a job as a bartender, so I could be close to you. Because of your love, I was able to become one of the good guys. Always, Domitia Paulina .

Domitia Paulina : Oh Quintus Lanius Paulinus, standing here, I think of our first two weddings. The first time, we were so impetuous, and we eloped, thinking only of how in love we were, and not realizing the consequences. The second time, we were still so very much in love, but we only had the ceremony to please your family. And that was wrong, because in Roma, to have real love means that you don't care about anyone
else - only yourselves. This time, we know what we're getting into, and we're having the type of wedding that we want, and I know that I want to spend every day from now on with you. Always, Quintus Lanius Paulinus.

Pontiff : And now, instead of having Lucius Cornelius Sardonicusua and Diana recite their vows, we would like the guests to make vows to Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus and Diana.

Guests : I vow to listen to Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus and Diana ramble on and on about Gens or election reforms ad infinitum and ad nauseam and happy they are whenever they want, from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, not only until death - which for Diana happens twice a month - but always.

Diana: Always, .

Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus: Always, Diana.

Pontiff: Have the marriage contracts been signed . Good. You may kiss the brides.
(Diana's mother suddenly appears in the heavens, dressed in white and glowing, along with a choir of angels, also in white and glowing. They sing "Hallelujah," and then vanish, leaving Diana looking up in amazement, oblivious to the fact that everyone is looking at her as though she is nuts. Apparently, Maureen didn't rate a spectral appearance. :-( Anyway, the hit man arrives next and takes aim. However, he thinks that Diana is the bride whom he is supposed to kill, and so he shoots her. When she is shot, she falls into the water. This is the end of the show, but apparently by next May, WSPQR will have implemented the coming attractions that ABC and NBC now use.)

ANNOUNCER: Next on "As the Tiber Flows" . (On the Spaulding couch, Baebiana and Caius are talking.)

Baebiana: (waving her arms around and shrieking) I, I, I have no one to take me to Lamaze class! Unless...you would be my partner. (At the wedding, Claudia is still hiding in the bushes.)

Claudia: (shrieking) Oh no! I killed a good guy! Diana! Diana!

Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus: Can she really be gone?
(On a desert island in the Caribbean, which should be far away and inaccessible from Tiber Island, if not for the fact that during happy hour even simple things like geography and logic go out the window, Diana has washed up on shore. She is unconscious. Some shirtless male-model type is hovering over her.)

MYSTERY MAN: You are the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. You can't die - I think I'm in love with you. (Diana wakes up.) Are you okay?

Diana: Who are you? (Pause) Who am I? Are you sure you want to know ? The truth hurts. Not the searching after, the running from it.
(Suspenseful music)

ANNOUNCER: Oh, if you only knew! As the Tiber Flows, only on WSPQR daytime!


The names have been changed (SOMEWHAT) to protect the writer's life


Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

THIS IS A SPOOF AND IS MEANT TO BE FUNNY

Most of the Text is from a soap opera web site
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] "As the Tiber Flows TOP SECRET! ADVANCED COPY
From:	Charlie Collins <cotta@spamcop.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:55:51 -0500

Far Out, Dude


Sextus Cornelius Cotta

AIM: Walhalla47

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] !!!!!!Britannia !!!!!
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:03:23 +0200

Salve Propraetor D Iunius Silanus,
Salve brother Laureatus Moravius,

<The Provincia britannia is currently discussing the possibility of
<organising a regional gathering in October.

The Gallic 'headquarters' of Gens Moravia has discussed (over a few Belgian
beers ;-) coming to Britannia for a regional gathering and we say with great
enthusiasm "Ja ! Do it! We'll be there!"

For the record, citizens of Belgica can fly to Stanstead Britannia for a
mere 15 Euros with Ryan Air. That is affordable even with the most modest
budget. When a date is set, if citizens need help making arrangements from
Gallia and Germania Inferior, it will be our pleasure to help. U kunt altijd
ons bellen of schrijven in het Nederlands schrijven. Onze telefoonnummer is
beneden (=You can always call or write us Dutch. Our telephone number is
below).

Hoping to meet new friends from Provincia Britannia and to see our "old"
friend Legate Lucius Salix Cicero and his beautiful new bride,

Valete,
Diana Moravia
Demetrius Moravius
GSM: 0498 758352

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Neverending circles
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:03:55 -0400 (EDT)

Have a care Solaris!!! I suspect that each and every element that you
have mentioned in your message will be a "strawman" to those who oppose
what you have stated. Your comments do not forward the consistant and
persistant comments of those who insst on carrying the argument on.

The philosophy here sees to be a familiar one. If you say a thing oten
enough, then it will in some measure become true. The basic arguments
have been made and now the inevitable character bashing follows. Time
to "punch out" I guess (Grin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Paterfamilias of Gens Cornelius
From:	lanius117@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:06:50 EDT

Salve, Quinte

It's so nice to see family members chatting with each other. By the way, how
is Drusilla Lania Iris? I haven't heard from her for a while now.

Sending you information about our newest cousin Aulus from the Netherlands.

Vale,

Falco


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 672
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:11:17 +0200

Salve Lucius Equitius,

L Equitius: So, Diana, you are not the only one to notice. There seems to
be a few henchmen on this list. This reminds me of how kindergardeners
operate when they are doing something, "But those guys are doing ...." You
know deflecting attention from their own actions. Or perhaps even more apt,
the "Good Cop, Bad Cop" scenario.

DMA: Good, your email has made me feel a lot better since I know for sure
that you are quite sane.... For a minute or two I thought I was
hallucinating, something which luckily I have never had a problem with.....

L Equitius:BTW, Who are the "BONI"? Are these real people or just another
way of saying
the nebulous "They"? Is there a list, and do the "Boni" have a webpage, like
the 'Cohors'?

DMA: Good question. I think it is a 'they' thing in which citizens are
accused of being a part of when they are not in accord with the main stream.

(feeling like the lone tigress and not part of my 'pack animal' scenario),
Vale,
Diana Moravia

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NOVA roma
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:14:24 -0400

Salve Marcus Audens, et salvete omens,

Marcus Minucius Audens wrote, while addressing L. Sicinius Drusus:

> Well, I must agree to your point that the wide period of time recognized
> by Nova Roma is indeed confusing.

As far as I'm concerned, dear friend, Nova Roma exists in the
28th century a.u.c. Some of us do historical recreations of
earlier times, some of us study earlier times, and I think all
of us are impressed by the accomplishments of the Romans of
antiquity. But we live here and now.

We chose, as our point of departure, the governmental forms of
the late Republic. This can be seen in things like the establishment
of 193 centuries, which we later realized were too many and reduced
to the current more flexible form requiring not fewer than 51.
It is also evident in our magesterial offices and in the number
of Tribunes we have. But I take none of that as meaning we
ignore - or ought to ignore - the day to day and year to year
advances in Roman and Western civilization which have occured over
the intervening two millennia. We live now, in this year 2756
ab urbe condita, and it is here and now that we are embracing the
Virtues and striving once again to make a Via Romana in this
modern world.

That's my take on the matter. I know there are some who see
the matter differently. But I can not accept that we are either
a role playing game or a group of historical recreationists acting
as if we lived in the eighth century a.u.c. We are here, we are
now, we are Nova Romans.

With my deepest respect,

-- Marinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Neverending circles
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 02:21:14 +0200

Salve Audens!
<< Have a care Solaris!!! I suspect that each and every element that you
have mentioned in your message will be a "strawman" to those who oppose
what you have stated. Your comments do not forward the consistant and
persistant comments of those who insst on carrying the argument on. >>

MOS: Yes, I concede that.

<< The philosophy here sees to be a familiar one. If you say a thing oten
enough, then it will in some measure become true. The basic arguments
have been made and now the inevitable character bashing follows. Time
to "punch out" I guess (Grin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). >>

MOS: Hehe. Well, as a matter of fact I'm leaving in a minute or so for a three-day trip into the woods :).

Take care everyone,
M. Octavius Solaris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Paterfamilias of Gens Cornelius
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:25:22 -0000

Salve Gai!

Drusilla and I chated last week and she has had to shut things down
for a few weeks in order to study for her exams as well. Ah, isn't
that discipline! She'll be in touch for sure.

Regards,

Quintus



--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, lanius117@a... wrote:
> Salve, Quinte
>
> It's so nice to see family members chatting with each other. By
the way, how
> is Drusilla Lania Iris? I haven't heard from her for a while now.
>
> Sending you information about our newest cousin Aulus from the
Netherlands.
>
> Vale,
>
> Falco
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] !!!!!!Britannia !!!!!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:49:23 +0100 (BST)

Salve Diana Moravia,

Our Gallic cousins will be extended a most hearty
welcome!!

Decimus Iunius Silanus.


> The Gallic 'headquarters' of Gens Moravia has
> discussed (over a few Belgian
> beers ;-) coming to Britannia for a regional
> gathering and we say with great
> enthusiasm "Ja ! Do it! We'll be there!"


__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:02:00 -0400 (EDT)

Well said Tiberius Galerius Paulinus!!

The same situation applies to myself, except that I am approaching the
age of 68!!!

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Chariot Racing
From:	"Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus" <ahenobarbus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:31:41 -0700

Gaia Flavia, if you could please please please take some photos, we'd
forever be in your debt...

> Salve Omnes;
> one of the cives in the NR course, Gaia Flavia of Britannica,tells
>that there will be chariot racing at the racetrack in Chester, with
>full Roman dress.

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NOVA roma
From:	MarcusAudens@webtv.net
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:19:00 -0400 (EDT)

Honored Marinus;

Hmmmmmmmmm!! I didn't mean to upset the apple cart here!!! My point
was that we do have a wide range of the Roman world to consider, and
that it is sometimes confusing,-- not that we should neglect any part
of it. I also made the point that the Legions that we sponsor usually
differ from the period from which we take our Administative and
Governmental examples.

I stand by those statements because they are true. My reenactment
activities have nothing to do with my Nova Roma activities. I have had
a difficult time convincing new people and some older people of that
fact, that an individual can do two thngs at once. Please don't jostle
that hard-won victory (Grin!!!!!).

My discussion with Senator Drusus was a series of ideas, some of which I
agree with and some of which I do not, and some which I have not yet
reached a decision about until I review his points thoroughly to find
the kernal of his "truth."

Senator Drusus is a very clever, intelligent and talented individual,
and has some very unique ideas, many of which, to my mind, are right on
the money. He is devoted to Nova Roma, and so when his ideas differ
from mine I like to be able to understand why, simply because I believe
that we both want the same things, differing only in our methodology. I
do not always agree with him, but I A:LWAYS consider what he has to say
very carefully, simply because he is also quicker than I am, and
sometimes it takes me a little longer (Grin!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

There is also another aspect, in that situation that I must keep
carefully in mind, and that is that he and I being Senators, we will
disagree on some things and agree on others. We must ad wiil work
together amicably for a common cause in the Senate to the best of our
ability, and we must retain a respect for one another. Such has not
always been the case in the Senate, for a variety of reasons which would
be inappropriate to discuss here, and which has only returned
disappointment for the individuals concerned and lost opportunities for
the Citizens of Nova Roma.

In that way, we are an effective team, other wise we are opposed always
not mainly to the issues but rather to each other, and that is
unacceptable. I do not wish to walk that road again.

No, my very good friend, I do not propose to ignore one part of the
Roman Panorama for another, but the very extensive length of the Roman
period, during which a myriad of changes to laws, duties,
responsibilities, acceptable activities, etc., are confusing, and do
need to be carefully considered, and some kind of agreement reached by a
majority of modern day Nova Romans. This is needed periodically in
order to move forward in our goal as stated in the Constitution, which
we have all agreed to live by.

I am firmly in agreement that the basis of Nova Roma should be taken
from the Roman world. Having said that, I am fully aware that those
major differences that have been repeatedly mentioned are not simply
"strawmen" but rather impact heavily on what we are trying to do. Add
to those items the modern conviences and the cultural changes which have
occurred since that period, and they all further impact upon our
efforts, in my view.

You are certainly correct, that we are all members of the modern day
with all that means. But by the same token we have pledged to adhere to
the words of our governing documents, which as I pointed out earlier to
Senator Drusus, can be very difficult to agreed upon.

Consider all those occurances which Romans knew nothing about which
impact our considerations every day;

--governments since the years 1000 A.D.;

--Political Parties which have risen and fallen and how they have
changed our world;

--Industrial Revolutions;

--Religious Revolutions, which have through man's inability to live to
the precept's of his own beliefs have plunged the world into war after
war. --etc., etc. etc.

I am well aware of what Nova Roma is supposed to do, and be. I have
served her in the Cursus Honorium, the Senate, as a Provincial Legate
and ProConsul, and as a founder of two Sodalitis. I have remained when
many ctizens more clever, capable, and inspired than myself have left,
most for good reason. I am a plodder, and not a "bright light" , but as
the turtle said to the hare, "I may not be quick but I am sure!!!!"

Respectfully;

Marcus Minucius Audens

A wet sheet and a flowing sea, and a wind follows fast, and fills the
white and rustling sail, and bends the gallant mast; and bends the
gallant mast my boys while like the eagle free, our good ship starts and
flies and leaves old England on our lee------Fair Winds and following
Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Paterfamilias of Gens Cornelius
From:	lanius117@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:43:06 EDT

Salve, Quinte

That's good to know - maybe she and Aulus can meet sometime, since they are
on the same continent!<LOL>

Vale,

Falco


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:42:12 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, senator L. Sicini Druse.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius
> Drusus"
> <lsicinius@y...> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > The Gender issue arose before I became a citizen,
> so I had no input
> > on attempting to do the right thing (encourage the
> proper use of
> > Roman Names) in the wrong way.
>
> I fully agree that to encourage the proper use of
> Roman names is "the
> right thing". I also agree in that the gender name
> lex does not try
> to promote it in the right way.
>
> > The Language issuse was largely a quirk of some
> people who weren't
> > exacly traditionalists.
>
> I don't know if they were what you continue to call
> "traditionalists"
> or no, given that there is no way to check who
> belongs to
> which "faction". Or is there perhaps a roll of
> "traditionalists"?
> :-).
>
> > I'm far more in agreement with the Traditionalists
> than with the
> > Modernists. We want a Nova Roma that is as Roman
> as possible, while
> > the Modernists have no qualms about dropping much
> of our culture
> > for modern ideas.
>
> Do you mean "modern ideas" like our current gens
> system? Why do you
> continue to claim that you defend Roman tradition
> when it is so
> clearly obvious that it is not the case?
>
> > Sir, I'm intrested in Roman culture, if I had any
> intrest in
> > Utopian Social Engineering I would join or start a
> group that had
> > that as it's primary focus rather than seeking to
> impose those
> > alien ideas on a group that was founded for
> another purpose
> > entirely.
>
> The fact is that I am not interested at all in
> "utopian social
> engineering". That is why I want to change our
> current gens system to
> something that resembles the Roman historical model.
> As it is now, it
> simply looks like something taken right out from
> Stalin's mind :-).
>
> > Nova Roma was founded to promote the Religio and
> Roman Culture. We
> > haven't accomplished as much as we could have in
> that area because
> > of constant fights over the introduction of ideas
> that have little
> > or nothing to do with Roma.
>
> I couldn't agree more. The problem is that you do
> not stand in that
> fight where you claim to be standing.
>
> CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF
>
>

Sir,
Last year's attempt at Gens reform was a repeat of the
Gender Lex, another attempt to do the right thing in
the wrong way.

The corecive element in the Gender lex resulted in two
mass resignations and several indiviual resignations.

The corercive element of the Gens lex would have
resulted in a mass resignation larger than both of the
mass resignations due to the Gender lex, and likely
some more indiviual resignations.

I Favor enabling legislation in this matter, a lex
that removes the legal problems and enables setting up
historic Gens and Families. I'm opposed to introducing
a corecive element into the legislation because it
will result in the loss of more citizens.

Attempting to coerce citizens into doing the right
thing can not and will not work in Nova Roma. All it
will do is result in citizens leaving the Res Publica,
eithier via a public resignation, or by simply walking
off without bothering to resign.

If they remain in Nova Roma, given some time they may
be persuaded to adopt the proper use of Roman names or
a proper Gens structure. It you drive them away then
you have lost any chance of persuading them.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Simpler Political Explanations / Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:31:42 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites; et salve, Q. Lani Pauline.
SNIP
>
> I think that senator L. Sicinius Drusus is referring
> to the following
> law:
>
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-ii.html
> This law defines English as the official language of
> the Republic of
> Nova Roma.

No it dosen't. It defines Latin as the Offical
language and English as the Business language. Those
sections of the lex are directly from a Sentus
Consulta passed on 15 November 2754.

See
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2001-11-15-results.html

English doccuments do have precedance over doccuments
written in other languages in the event of a dispute
over meaning. It's common in international treaties to
include a clause like this in the event of a dispute.

Since English is the business language, it was the
logical choice for which doccument would have
preferance in the event of a dispute over divergent
translations.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Compulsory Latin for NR Citizenship REVEALED!
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:50:38 -0000

Salvete omnes,

It is bedtime in Europe and quitting time in Eastern North America.
Time to shut my discussion down.
This idea of compulsory Latin is, of course, a foolish idea. If such
demands were ever asked we'd be lucky to have 1/2 a dozen people left
in Nova Roma. Then what else follows? A 6 year active service in a
reenactment legion for citizenship qualification as was just pointed
out by one of our citizens in my email? I will study my Latin for
enjoyment, fufillment and mental gymnastics but forcing it on to
citizens would be just awful! Still the key to opening the door to
any culture is its language and that "should" be a minimum
requirement if we were to actually adhere strictly to the old
republic, culture, religion etc. And for religio Romano, one should
be able to read the old Latin about it themselves and not rely upon
other people's translations and interpretations.

I just threw on the Latin requirement post to teach us all a lesson
about where things would quickly go if we are highly selective and
adhere to the old republic very strictly. Also this is for people who
have an interest and passion in Ancient Rome; some are better
equipped and educated than others, some are deeply committed and
others more casual and thoughts as well as opinions, both
conservative or liberal should always be gracefully entertained and
considered. Above all we ought not to tell citizens to start or look
for other lists if their goals or commitments are not up to our
personal beliefs or standards. Should one look for another list if
he or she will not learn Latin proficiency or serve in a legion?
Women, of course will stay out of politics here and confine
themselves to Sodalistas coq et coq or the muses - errrr - Nope, bad
idea! We have a lovely bunch of lady citizens here and I can't
imagine NR without them in a stricter less flexible society.

Anyway I won't make a habit of pulling stunts like this. My apologies
to anyone who may have been offended or put off by my posting on the
Latin language requirements. Simplifying or taking time to explain
complex political issues for the newbies still stands.


Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] "As the Tiber Flows TOP SECRET! ADVANCED COPY
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus <l_c_sardonicus@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT)

Alright Paulie, I've had just about enough of this crap. One gig as a hack reporter and all of a sudden you're the Goddess' gift to the theatre?? You're not even qualified to dig my latrine, pal! My agent negotiated 10 on-stage lines, two off-stage lines and a nude scene with the Vestal Virgin. <Rips up contract> Tell you what I'm gonna do. Get them to change my character's name to Antonius Sopranus and give me one million solidi an episode or tonight...you sleep with the fishes.

Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote: Some funny stuff



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Compulsory Latin for NR Citizenship REVEALED!
From:	Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@callahans.org>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:17:22 -0700

Salve, Quintus Lanius Paulinus -

On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 09:50:38PM -0000, Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly) wrote:

[ snip ]

> I just threw on the Latin requirement post to teach us all a lesson
> about where things would quickly go if we are highly selective and
> adhere to the old republic very strictly.

For which demonstration I sincerely thank you. It underscores one of the
points which I believe need to be strongly made and remembered here:
tougher requirements for joining or maintaining citizenship in NR simply
mean that more people will resign and fewer will join - period.

For those who mutter about how this isn't consistent with how the Romans
did it, citizenship in Nova Roma does not confer anything resembling the
benefits of Roman citizenship. Our entrance requirements reflect that.
Exclusivity in granting citizenship is usually a privilege of power -
and this is not one of the places where "fake it till you make it" can
bring any positive results.


Vale,
Caius Minucius Scaevola
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Melius frangi quam flecti.
It is better to break than to bend.
-- N/A

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] "As the Tiber Flows TOP SECRET! ADVANCED COPY
From:	"Sp. Postumius Tubertus" <postumius@gmx.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:38:18 -0400

Salve Tiberi Galeri,

Thank you for the humor! It was indeed a welcome break from the politics in the forum. And though I thank you for mentioning me, might I ask why I had not one line in the piece? And, as a second point, whose daughter (originally) Octavia is? T. Pius, M. Solaris, or M. Germanicus? They are all honorable men, and I'd love to be a son-in-law to either of the three, should they permit me, someday.

Vale,

Postumius

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] NOVA roma
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:56:28 -0700 (PDT)

--- Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net> wrote:
> Salve Marcus Audens, et salvete omens,
>
> Marcus Minucius Audens wrote, while addressing L.
> Sicinius Drusus:
>
> > Well, I must agree to your point that the wide
> period of time recognized
> > by Nova Roma is indeed confusing.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, dear friend, Nova Roma
> exists in the
> 28th century a.u.c. Some of us do historical
> recreations of
> earlier times, some of us study earlier times, and I
> think all
> of us are impressed by the accomplishments of the
> Romans of
> antiquity. But we live here and now.
>
> We chose, as our point of departure, the
> governmental forms of
> the late Republic. This can be seen in things like
> the establishment
> of 193 centuries, which we later realized were too
> many and reduced
> to the current more flexible form requiring not
> fewer than 51.

LSD: The number of Centuries was established under the
Kings and remained at 193 throughout the Republic. It
isn't indictive of any stage of the Republic.

> It is also evident in our magesterial offices and in
> the number
> of Tribunes we have.

The Office of Tribune was established shortly after
the founding of the Republic with the election of two
tribunes in 494 BCE. Most ancient sources agree that
this number was soon raised to 5 Tribunes. In 457 BCE
the number was raised to 10 and remained at 10
throughout the remainder of the Republic.

5 Tribunes is indictive of the Early Republic.

The Office of Praetor was established in 356 BCE. At
first there was only one Praetor. This number was
raised to two in 246 BCE, four in 227 BCE and 6 in 197
BCE. The Dictator Sulla raised it to 8. The Dictator
Caesar raised it to 10, then 12, then 14 and reached
16 before his assination.

2 Praetors is indictive of the Middle Republic.

The office that we call Consul was established at the
start of the Republic, however the title was Praetor
prior to 305 BCE.

Use of the title "Praetor" for the highest office
would be indictive of the Early Republic.

Use of the title "Consul" could be indictive of either
the middle or late Republic.

The number remained at two throughout the Republic and
isn't indictive of any phase.

The Office of Plebian Aedile was established at the
same time as the Tribunes in 494 BCE. The number
remained at two through the Republic and isn't
indictive of any phase.

The Office of Curile Aedile was established in 365
BCE, and remained at two throughout the Republic. It's
existance is indictive of either the middle or late
Republic.

With the exception of the Tribunes, our Magistraital
structure is more indictive of the middle Republic
than any other period.



=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Compulsory Latin for NR
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:57:12 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Q. Lanio Paulino salutem dicit.

Salve, Q. Lani.

Condicione tua accepta, visne ut inquisitionem in lingua Latina
apparem? Exempli gratia:

1. Estne conligatio fellatoris irrumptorisque quam simillima:

a. Equus equesque?
b. Optimatis popularisque?
c. Antonius Cleopatraque?
d. Attikos kai ephebos?
e. Hic nullum?

2. Scribe carmen in metro hendecasyllabico Catulli, sed de gloria
gentis Iuliae (forsan sitne "gentis Laniae"?).

3. Tertium quidque verbum in legibus Saliciis et in legibus Corneliis
e Anglico in Latinum converte.

Num haec vis?

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus (fortasse etiam Scurra)

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Compulsory Latin for NR Citizenship REVEALED!
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:12:27 -0700 (PDT)

--- "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
<mjk@datanet.ab.ca> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
SNIP
>
> I just threw on the Latin requirement post to teach
> us all a lesson
> about where things would quickly go if we are highly
> selective and
> adhere to the old republic very strictly. Also this
> is for people who
> have an interest and passion in Ancient Rome; some
> are better
> equipped and educated than others, some are deeply
> committed and
> others more casual and thoughts as well as opinions,
> both
> conservative or liberal should always be gracefully
> entertained and
> considered. Above all we ought not to tell citizens
> to start or look
> for other lists if their goals or commitments are
> not up to our
> personal beliefs or standards. Should one look for
> another list if
> he or she will not learn Latin proficiency or serve
> in a legion?
> Women, of course will stay out of politics here and
> confine
> themselves to Sodalistas coq et coq or the muses -
> errrr - Nope, bad
> idea! We have a lovely bunch of lady citizens here
> and I can't
> imagine NR without them in a stricter less flexible
> society.
>

Sir,
Many of us have intrests that have nothing to do with
Nova Roma. These might be Cars, Computers, Video
Games, Model Airplanes or Modern Political theory.

Most of the citizens who have these outside intrests
are able to refrain from demanding that thier intrests
become an offical part of Nova Roma, though this
dosen't seem true of citizens who have a passion for
modern political theory. They seek to inflict this on
the rest of us.

I Have, and continue to suggest that these people do
the same as the citizens who have an intrest in Video
Games or or Model Airplanes and persue intrests that
have nothing to do with Roma in another venue.


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Modernist and Traditonalist Factions (was Re: Would have, Could Have)
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:18:36 -0000

Salvete Quirites; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Sir,
> Last year's attempt at Gens reform was a repeat of the
> Gender Lex, another attempt to do the right thing in
> the wrong way.
>
> The corecive element in the Gender lex resulted in two
> mass resignations and several indiviual resignations.
>
> The corercive element of the Gens lex would have
> resulted in a mass resignation larger than both of the
> mass resignations due to the Gender lex, and likely
> some more indiviual resignations.

Last year's proposal was not coercitive, senator. People were allowed
to choose where they would be, *including* their current gens
leader's familia (even though that would have been quite
unhistorical). Many efforts were made to reach a compromise; the
problem was that one of the parts was not willing to reach a
compromise at all, because it was more than happy with the current
anti-historical situation.

> I Favor enabling legislation in this matter, a lex that removes the
> legal problems and enables setting up historic Gens and Families.

Then why are you against a reform that seeks to do exactly that?

> I'm opposed to introducing a corecive element into the legislation
> because it will result in the loss of more citizens.

You will have to forgive me, senator, but I am beginning to think
that you should re-read last year's proposal very carefully. You keep
insisting in its coercitive nature; the truth is that it allowed each
citizen to decide his personal status. What we currently
call "gentes" would have been allowed to continue to exist with minor
changes (basically, it would be called a "familia" instead of
a "gens", and it would need a cognomen as well as a nomen to be
differentiated from other familiae in the same gens).

CN·SALIX·ASTVR·T·F·A·NEP·TRIB·OVF