M. Lucretius Agricola: + cat

2008-08-05T06:22:49Z

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← Older revision		Revision as of 06:22, 5 August 2008
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−	Senate Voting Results published on 04 August 2758	+	[[Category:MMDCCLVIII]]Senate Voting Results published on 04 August 2758

	I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma,		I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma,

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus at 04:34, 5 August 2008

2008-08-05T04:34:02Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:34, 5 August 2008
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	BANK ACCOUNT IN EUROPE		BANK ACCOUNT IN EUROPE
	LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE		LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE
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	Article 3 :		Article 3 :
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	and non-tax-paying lictors. So, you will find, for example votes like « UR, ANT ».		and non-tax-paying lictors. So, you will find, for example votes like « UR, ANT ».
	Each vote cast on every item submitted to vote is reported here		Each vote cast on every item submitted to vote is reported here
−	Senator Item 1 Item 2 Item 3	+	Senator Item 1 Item 2 Item 3
−	Franciscus Apulus Caesar UR UR UR	+	*Franciscus Apulus Caesar UR UR UR
−	G. Popillius Laenas UR UR UR	+	*G. Popillius Laenas UR UR UR
−	Antonius Gryllus Graecus UR UR,ANT UR	+	*Antonius Gryllus Graecus UR UR,ANT UR
	Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus		Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
	(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR UR UR		(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR UR UR

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus: New page: Senate Voting Results published on 04 August 2758 I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma, On sight...

2008-08-05T04:31:11Z

New page: Senate Voting Results published on 04 August 2758 I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma, On sight...

New page

Senate Voting Results published on 04 August 2758

I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma,

On sight of the Constitution of Nova Roma, specially its article IV.A.7.d ;
On sight of Senate sessions reporting Moravia Law Nov.15, 2756 a.u.c. ;
On sight of Consul Fr. Apulus Caesar Edict 4 January 2005 convening the Senate ;
On sight of my Edict 2nd August 2005 (58-17) on the communication of the Senate session ;

On sight of the session of the Senate which has begun on July 24th 2005 and ended
on July 30th 2005, and whose vote has ended on August 4th 2005, at 18.00 p.m. (Rome time) ;

On sight of Consul Fr. Apulus Caesar message (extracts below), displayed on the Senate list on August 4th, 2005 at 18 :04 (Rome Time) proclaiming the results of the Senate vote

Considering the need to correct the counting of the votes made by Illustrus Consul Caesar on items 2 and 3
submitted to the vote,
Edicts :

Article 1 :
The citizens, the People and the Plebs of Nova Roma are informed
that the Senate, duly convened par Consul Fr. Apulus Caesar, has
ended at 21.00 p.m. (Rome time) on July 30th, 2005 its session begun
at 21 :00 p.m. (Rome time) on July 24th, 2005.
The Senate has also ended its vote, which has last from 21.00 p.m.
(Rome time) on July 30th, 2005 to 18:00 p.m. (Rome time) on August 4th, 2005
Article 2 :
Five points were in the agenda of the Senate, detailed in my previous edict 58-17 (August 2nd) :

APPOINTMENT OF NEW PROPRAETOR OF PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SUPERIOR
REMOVAL OF INTERPRETERS AND LICTORES
PERMISSION TO USE THE NOVA ROMAN LOGOS
BANK ACCOUNT IN EUROPE
LEX IVLIA DE FORO ET MODERATIONE

Article 3 :
The details of the vote communicated by the consular message are the following :
A quorum has been reached since nineteen (19) senators, representing 63 % of the senators, have voted.

These 19 senators are the following (no order in the list) :

*FAC - Franciscus Apulus Caesar
*GPL - G. Popillius Laenas
*GEM - Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
*CFBQ - Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
*LAF - Lucius Arminius Faustus
*LEF - L. Emilia Finnica
*PMTS - P. Minucia Tiberia Strabo
*JSM - J. Sempronia Magna
*GFL - G. Fabia Livia
*LSA - L. Sergius Australicus
*LECA - Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
*TLF - T Labienus Fortunatus
*MMTA - Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens
*MIP - Marcus Iulius Perusianus
*MAM - Marcus Arminius Maior
*GMM - Gaius Marius Merullus
*QFM - Q. Fabius Maximus
*AGG - Antonius Gryllus Graecus
*MOG - Marcus Octavius Germanicus

3/ The votes casts by each present and voting senator are the following:
"UR " meaning "VTI ROGAS" (Yes),
"ABS" meaning "ABSTINEO" (Abstain)
"ANT" meaning "ANTIQUO" (No).

On the second item, some senators chose, with the approval of the presiding consul,
to separate their vote between the vote for the removal of the non-tax-paying interpreters
and non-tax-paying lictors. So, you will find, for example votes like « UR, ANT ».
Each vote cast on every item submitted to vote is reported here
Senator Item 1 Item 2 Item 3
Franciscus Apulus Caesar UR UR UR
G. Popillius Laenas UR UR UR
Antonius Gryllus Graecus UR UR,ANT UR
Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR UR UR
Emilia Curia Finnica
UR UR UR
Gaia Fabia Livia
UR UR UR
Gaius Marius Merullus UR UR UR
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus UR UR,ABS UR
Julilla Sempronia Magna
UR UR,ANT UR
Lucius Arminius Faustus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR UR UR
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur UR UR,ANT UR
Lucius Sergius Australicus
UR UR UR
Marcus Arminius Maior UR UR UR
Marcus Iulius Perusianus UR UR UR
Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens UR ABS ABS
Marcus Octavius Germanicus UR UR UR
Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
UR ABS,ABS UR
Quintus Fabius Maximus
UR ANT ANT
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
UR UR,ABS UR

Article 4 :
Since the Senate is composed by twenty-eight (28) senators, it appears
that nine (9) senators, which represent 32.1 % of the senators, did not
take part to the vote. These senators are as follows :
CFD - C. Flavius Diocletianus
MCI - Marcus Cassius Iulianus
LCSF - Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
GSA - Gnaeus Salvius Astur
DIPI - Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus
LSD - Lucius Sicinius Drusus
MCS - Manius Constantinus Serapio
PC - Patricia Cassia
ATMC - Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Article 5 :
The results of the vote of the Senate is the following :
# 1 - APPOINTMENT OF NEW PROPRAETOR OF PROVINCIA AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SUPERIOR
Passed
UR : 19 votes
ANT : 0 vote
ABS : 0 vote
# 2 - REMOVAL OF INTERPRETERS AND LICTORES
Though the question has been asked as a whole to the senators, six (6) of them made two different votes, concerning the interpreters on one hand, and the lictors on the other.
From the moment that we consider these split votes as admissible, which did the presiding consul sees this question, we have the following results :
2.1. Removal of interpreters (« approve the removal of the following Interpreters and Lictores »):
Passed
UR: 16 votes
ANT: 1 vote
ABS : 2 votes
2.2. Removal of lictors (« approve the removal of the following Interpreters and Lictores » )
Passed
UR: 11 votes
ANT: 4 votes
ABS : 4 votes
# 3 - PERMISSION TO USE THE NOVA ROMAN LOGOS
Passed
UR : 18 votes
ANT: 0 vote
ABS : 1 vote
Article 5 :
the complexity of the question on the removal of interpreters and
lictores asks some commentary.
As Consul Caesar said in his message below, « (..) there was a
misunderstanding about the vote on this item. ». During the
debate, some senators argued that the tax-non-paying lictors could
not be dismissed but by the assembly that has designed them.
The ground put foward by Ill. Consul Caesar has been the article
III.C. of lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi (May 20, 2756 a.u.c.),
which says that « No member of the capiti censi may run for
or hold office as one of the ordinarii (including the apparitores),
nor be appointed to or hold office as provincial governor».
the first difficulty which appears is that lex Vedia, or any other
law, has not organised the way this article must be applied. This
text sets an interdiction, but does not say what to do if citizens
capite censi -i.e. who have not paid their taxes - run for or hold
office.
Consul Caesar has considered, with a not so bad reasoning, that
these people should be dismissed. For it seems contrary to the basic
roman virtues that people who claim representing Nova Roma do not,
as other citizens, give the example contributing to the budget of
our Res publica.
Illustrus Caesar initially considered that the dismissal could be
made by the Senate.
Concerning the Interpreters, he was fully right, for the « simple »
interpreters whose office has been created by lex Cornelia de linguis
publicis as the « latinists », whose status has been detailed by lex Arminia
de fovenda lingua latina, are designed and dismissed by the Senate.
The case of the lictors was more complicated. Some senators underlined
the fact that the lictors are designed by the comitia curiata and cannot be
dismissed by another constitutional power.
This argument sounds wise, concerning the lictores *curiati*,
specially if we remind that the constitution specifies, in its
article III.A., that « The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae)
shall be made up of thirty lictores curiati (lictors of the curia)
[..] and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by which the
comitia curiata shall operate internally. ».
The problem, here, is that another article of the same constitution,
the article IV.A.9., places the lictors and the lictores curiati
among the apparitors : « Apparitores (Attendants). Collectively, the
apparitores shall not be considered magistrates, but rather shall be
appointed into various decuriae (corporations) to fulfill those
necessary functions as shall be assigned to them by law enacted by
one of the comitia. They shall include the lictores, lictores
curiati, scribae, and accensi. ».
And, we have seen that apparitores were concerned by lex Vedia (see above).
So how to solve this double contradiction : on one hand lictors are
members of one of the assemblies of Nova Roma, and another they are
designed as ordinary-non-magistrates officers. Second, as members of
an assembly they are not to obey to a rule defined by a simple (non
constitutional) law or a rule that has not been defined by the comitia curiata
itself ; at the same time lex Vedia says that they must not occupy their lictorial
office if they do not pay the annual taxes ?
The Senate has touched the difficulty and Consul Caesar decided (cf message below)
that the asked vote would be « unofficial for lictores inviting the Pontifex Maximus
to find a solution as soon as possible.».
What seems clear is that first the primacy of the constitution on the law, then the
fact that the article III of this text must prevails on the article IV.A.9 because the firs
t set an *assembly* which is reputed to represent the People of Nova Roma, lead us to
conclude that *in law*, the lictors have not to apply lex Vedia.
Beyond this interesting senatorial debate, we see therefore that we will have to solve,
one day or another some of the contradictions which are included in our Constitution.
Remains the « moral » question : is it normal that some of the members of the
comitia curiata do not pay taxes ? This Honorable assembly is the only one which may
answer to this question, in conscience.
Article 6 :
The appropriate magistrates of Nova Roma and their departments are responsible, as far
as each one is concerned, for executing this edict, which will be published in the
Tabularium of Nova Roma.
Issued in Caen, city of the Viducasses, France,
this fifth day of August, 2005 C.E. (5TH August 2758),
during the consulate of Fr. Apulus Caesar and Ga. Popillius Laenas

Extract of the Consular message 4th August 2758 18:04 Rome Time
# 1 - APPOINTMENT OF NEW PROPRAETOR OF PROVINCIA
AMERICA MEDIOCCIDENTALIS SUPERIOR
Given the resignation of the Propraetor Q. Servilius Priscus Fidenas,
Salvia Sempronia Graccha presents her candidacy for the
Propraetorship of America Medioccidentalis Superior:
"Thank you for considering my candidacy for Propraetrix of
Provincia America Medioccidentalis Superior. I have been working
on behalf of Propraetor Q. Servilius Priscus Fidenas for some months
now, first as scriba and then as legata, with the understanding that this
was essentially an apprenticeship for the propraetorship. Now that he
wishes to effect his retirement, I feel that I am reasonably well prepared
to take on the job. I hope that I will be able to contribute to the growth
of the province.
"We will be having our first local meeting this Thursday. I am about
one-third done with the provincial census work. I have been advising a
very enthusiastic newbie concerning her name. I have plans to increase
the level of active involvement of our cives and to increase the number
of cives.
"I hope that you will consider these things when making your decision.
If you would like further information, please don't hesitate to ask."
Senator Item 1
Franciscus Apulus Caesar UR
G. Popillius Laenas UR
Antonius Gryllus Graecus UR
Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR
Emilia Curia Finnica
UR
Gaia Fabia Livia
UR
Gaius Marius Merullus UR
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus UR
Julilla Sempronia Magna
UR
Lucius Arminius Faustus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur UR
Lucius Sergius Australicus
UR
Marcus Arminius Maior UR
Marcus Iulius Perusianus UR
Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens UR
Marcus Octavius Germanicus UR
Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
UR
Quintus Fabius Maximus
UR
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
UR

SENATORS' COMMENTS: None Recorded
# 2 - REMOVAL OF INTERPRETERS AND LICTORES
The following Interpreters and Lictores are counted as members of
the Capite Censi. As ordered by the Lex Vedia de Assidui et Capiti
Censi, they should be removed from their own Offices. However the
Constitution defines them as non-magistrates. So I address this matter
and the decision to remove them to the body entitled to elect them,
the Senatus.
The Senatus is called to approve the removal of the following
Interpreters and Lictores:
Titus Arminius Genialis
Marcus Cornelius Felix
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Petrus Domitianus Artorinus Longinus
Lucius Fabius Metellus
Helena Galeria Aureliana
Marcus Martianus Gangalius
Lucius Sicinius Drusus
Senator Item 2
Franciscus Apulus Caesar UR
G. Popillius Laenas UR
Antonius Gryllus Graecus UR,ANT
Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR
Emilia Curia Finnica
UR
Gaia Fabia Livia
UR
Gaius Marius Merullus UR
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus UR,ABS
Julilla Sempronia Magna
UR,ANT
Lucius Arminius Faustus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur UR,ANT
Lucius Sergius Australicus
UR
Marcus Arminius Maior UR
Marcus Iulius Perusianus UR
Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens ABS
Marcus Octavius Germanicus UR
Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
ABS,ABS
Quintus Fabius Maximus
ANT
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
UR,ABS

SENATORS' COMMENTS:
Franciscus Apulus Caesar: Working for a better law cohordinating the tax-raising with the annual elections, I think the law should be applied and the following gentlemen removed from their own Offices.
Lucius Arminius Faustus: Follow the law.
Julilla Sempronia Magna: VTI ROGAS for interpreters and ANTIQVO for lictores.
Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens: I abstain from this voter from a hesitatation brought
about by the determination of Senator Tiberia. She has mentioned some aspects that I had not considered, and until they are made clearer I will abstain on this matter.
Titus Labienus Fortunatus: With respect to the interpretes: VTI ROGAS - With respect to the lictores of the comitia curiata: ABSTINEO. While I see nothing wrong with the Senatus giving its advice in this matter--after all, that is what the Senatus does--Senatrix Minucia-Tiberia is quite correct that this body does not have the authority to dismiss lictores curiatae. That is, indeed, the purview of the Collegium Pontificum.
Antonius Gryllus Graecus: Interpretes: VTI ROGAS - Lictores: ANTIQVO
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur: ANTIQVO to the dismissal of the Lictores. As has been rightly stated that is the under the jurisdiction of the Comitia Curiata presided over by the Pontifex Maximus and appointed by the College Pontificum. "III. Comitia A. The comitia curiata (Assembly of Curiae) shall be made up of thirty lictores curiati (lictors of the curia), appointed to their position by the collegium pontificum (college of pontiffs). It shall be called to order by the Pontifex Maximus, and the collegium pontificum shall set the rules by which the comitia curiata shall operate internally..." We haven't addressed the issue of non tax paying Lictores. Who would think that someone appointed to such an honorable and exclusive comitia wouldn't support the republic of which it is a part? But then, we've had many other things happen that make even less sense. VTI ROGAS, to the removal of delinquent interpreters. Since they are appointed by the Senate we have a perfect right to dismiss them.
Quintus Fabius Maximus The information as given at the start of the Contio is now incorrect. Several of the mentioned names have paid their taxes according to the latest releasedinformation. Until the statisics are updated we cannot vote using incorrect information.
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus: VTI ROGAS with respect to the Interpreters and ABSTINEO with respect to the Lictores
Comments of Tribune Publius Memmius Albucius: It's quite clear that there was a misunderstanding about the vote on this item. It seems that the law about Assidui et Capite Censi couldn't be applied to the Lictores which must to be judged by the Conitia Curiata called by the Pontifex Maximus. For this reason I divided the result of this item in two voices, one official for interpreters and one un-official for Lictores inviting the Pontifex Maximus to find a solution as soon as possible. So, the Interpreters which are members of the Capite Censi at the end of the current Senatus Consultum, are removed from their Office with immediate effect.
# 3 - PERMISSION TO USE THE NOVA ROMAN LOGOS
Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa ask to the Senatus the approval to use the
official logos of Nova Roma for his new e-commerce. The following
is the official request:
"My name is Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa and I am officially requesting permission
to use the 'SPQR and laurel wreath' logo design on crested/silk-screened apparel.
The first products available will be t-shirts, baseball caps, sweatshirts, hoodies,
and toques. If there is a demand, I will branch out into other apparel items. The
logo would be used on the front of the product with 'novaroma.org' on the sleeves
of the shirts and on the back of the caps and toques. Most likely, the shirts will
retail for $US 15 with the caps and toques at similar prices. The sweatshirts and
hoodies will probably retail for about $US 35 or 40. The prices will depend on
volume and suppliers. I have a supplier in the works and the products will be
available in about 3 weeks after I have recieved permission from the Senate
to use the logo.
"If you have any questions about my proposal, please feel free to email me.
"Thank you for your time,
"Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa"

Senator Item 3
Franciscus Apulus Caesar UR
G. Popillius Laenas UR
Antonius Gryllus Graecus UR
Caeso Fabius Buteo Quintilianus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR
Emilia Curia Finnica
UR
Gaia Fabia Livia
UR
Gaius Marius Merullus UR
Gnaeus Equitius Marinus UR
Julilla Sempronia Magna
UR
Lucius Arminius Faustus
(proxy by Consul Francisus Apulus Caesar) UR
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur UR
Lucius Sergius Australicus
UR
Marcus Arminius Maior UR
Marcus Iulius Perusianus UR
Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens ABS
Marcus Octavius Germanicus UR
Pompeia Minucia-Tiberia Strabo
UR
Quintus Fabius Maximus
ANT
Titus Labienus Fortunatus
UR

SENATORS' COMMENTS:
Franciscus Apulus Caesar: I remember to illustrus Agrippa that the permission by the Senatus would be followed by the approval of the membership in the Ordo Equester.

Lucius Arminius Faustus: I was unable to follow the matter.

Marcus Minucius-Tiberius Audens: My reasoning here is because of a recent report of several children being severely burned (3rd degree burns over a large percentage of thier body) by t-shirts which were made of wholly or a large portion of synthetic products. When the T-shirts burned these products melted into the burned areas, and caused a significant increase in the burn severity. Since I do not wish my name or my organizations linked with such dangerous practices in regard to children, I will abstain my vote until such time I I find out what kind of material these t-shirts are being made of.

Lucius Sergius Australicus: I would hope that anyone authorized to sell items under the auspices of Nova Roma is required to attest to the basic safety of what they sell there. If this is not so, let us take steps to make it so.
Publius Memmius Albucius
Tribunus Plebis
04 Aug 2758

Session LXIII 4 August 2758 - Revision history

M. Lucretius Agricola: + cat

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus at 04:34, 5 August 2008

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus: New page: Senate Voting Results published on 04 August 2758 I, Publius Memmius Albucius, Tribune of the Plebs, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of Nova Roma, On sight...