Session XXV 05 December 2753
(New page: <div class="scriptum"> {{Senate Session|Dec|5|2000}} Senate action for 5 December 2753 as posted in the “old Tabularium” This appears to be the FIRST Tribune report. Tiberius Gal...) |
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Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius | Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius | ||
− | Sulla | + | Sulla Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus |
− | Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus | + | |
Item the First. | Item the First. | ||
Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma | Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma | ||
Shall this be done? | Shall this be done? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: No | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: No |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: No | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: No |
− | M. Iunius: No | + | *M. Iunius: No |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: No. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: No. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: NO. * The proposed procedure is an excellent start, | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: NO. * The proposed procedure is an excellent start, |
but was done in a hurry since there was a "crisis" over Censorial | but was done in a hurry since there was a "crisis" over Censorial | ||
funding. That has been dealt with in the short term, so there seems to be | funding. That has been dealt with in the short term, so there seems to be | ||
time for everyone who has ideas to present them. This can be worked out | time for everyone who has ideas to present them. This can be worked out | ||
and completed next vote. | and completed next vote. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (yes). | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (yes). |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. We have to start somewhere on | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. We have to start somewhere on |
this, and most of the proposal is perfectly sensible | this, and most of the proposal is perfectly sensible | ||
− | M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I agree with my Colleague Senator | + | *M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I agree with my Colleague Senator |
Germanicus that, in my view, to pass a flawed Consultum is far worse than | Germanicus that, in my view, to pass a flawed Consultum is far worse than | ||
to wait for a reasonable time to get it right. There is a saying which | to wait for a reasonable time to get it right. There is a saying which | ||
applies: "We never have the luxury to get it right the first time, but | applies: "We never have the luxury to get it right the first time, but | ||
always have sufficent resource to correct it!!!" ) | always have sufficent resource to correct it!!!" ) | ||
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Negat, this has not been sufficiently discussed. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Negat, this has not been sufficiently discussed. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO Good in principle, but I cannot | + | *N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO Good in principle, but I cannot |
support it as it stands. It needs much more careful, unhurried work, | support it as it stands. It needs much more careful, unhurried work, | ||
especially on detailed procedure for claiming, assessing claims, | especially on detailed procedure for claiming, assessing claims, | ||
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whole issue of project management - needs a whole manual, not just part | whole issue of project management - needs a whole manual, not just part | ||
of one Senatus Consultum. | of one Senatus Consultum. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. This procedure was rewritten twice from varius | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. This procedure was rewritten twice from varius |
submissions. It still needs some tweaking. Suggest it is polished and | submissions. It still needs some tweaking. Suggest it is polished and | ||
resubmitted for Dec. Call. | resubmitted for Dec. Call. | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS I agree with Cassia. We have to start | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS I agree with Cassia. We have to start |
somewhere. If we keep changing the text, it will never get done. | somewhere. If we keep changing the text, it will never get done. | ||
− | M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT More time for discussion needed | + | *M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT More time for discussion needed |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT There is much of value in this proposal, | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT There is much of value in this proposal, |
but the quaestores' role is incorrect. | but the quaestores' role is incorrect. | ||
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Iunius Palladius votes no | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Iunius Palladius votes no |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. While a procedure is needed, this one has | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. While a procedure is needed, this one has |
the Quaestors choosing whether to approve an expense, which is not proper. | the Quaestors choosing whether to approve an expense, which is not proper. | ||
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT There seem to be both structural and | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT There seem to be both structural and |
grammatical errors with this proposal. | grammatical errors with this proposal. | ||
YES 3; NO 15; AB 0 | YES 3; NO 15; AB 0 | ||
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controls | controls | ||
Shall this be done? | Shall this be done? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: YES. | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: YES. |
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. Same points apply | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. Same points apply |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, there should be a permanent treasury staff. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, there should be a permanent treasury staff. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO For reasons similar to those stated | + | *N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO For reasons similar to those stated |
above, I cannot give this my approval. | above, I cannot give this my approval. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas |
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: Negat More time for discussion needed | + | *M. Marcius Rex: Negat More time for discussion needed |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius abstains. I think that we should start | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius abstains. I think that we should start |
− | moving control of the | + | moving control of the treasury towards a more permanent, professional staff. |
− | treasury towards a more permanent, professional staff. | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS |
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS | + | |
YES 15; NO 2; AB 1; | YES 15; NO 2; AB 1; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 2 PASSES | ITEM 2 PASSES | ||
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Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship | Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship | ||
Shall we sponsor the Legio? | Shall we sponsor the Legio? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: YES. * I also am not overly concerned over having | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: YES. * I also am not overly concerned over having |
too many small legions. Sponsoring new startups only gives us an | too many small legions. Sponsoring new startups only gives us an | ||
opportunity to grow Legions which are more connected to Nova Roma, and | opportunity to grow Legions which are more connected to Nova Roma, and | ||
made up with a greater percentage of Citizens. | made up with a greater percentage of Citizens. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. (While some have expressed concerns about | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. (While some have expressed concerns about |
sponsoring too many small legions, I think this is exactly the purpose of | sponsoring too many small legions, I think this is exactly the purpose of | ||
our sponsorship program - to give these legions a place to find one | our sponsorship program - to give these legions a place to find one | ||
another and arrange projects in cooperation.) | another and arrange projects in cooperation.) | ||
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, this is part of our goals. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, this is part of our goals. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Though I feel we should not go on to | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Though I feel we should not go on to |
sponsor an infinity of legiones, as I said earlier, I wish them well. | sponsor an infinity of legiones, as I said earlier, I wish them well. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. Although we should start thinking of | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. Although we should start thinking of |
requesting greater numbers of recruits in legiones before we grant them | requesting greater numbers of recruits in legiones before we grant them | ||
sponsorship. Alaudae has a special place in my heart, since it was one | sponsorship. Alaudae has a special place in my heart, since it was one | ||
of the first legiones I constructed. | of the first legiones I constructed. | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. |
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS I had originally suggested the | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS I had originally suggested the |
sponsorship program way back when, and am quite pleased that it is being | sponsorship program way back when, and am quite pleased that it is being | ||
continued. | continued. | ||
+ | |||
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 3 PASSES | ITEM 3 PASSES | ||
− | Item the Fourth. | + | Item the Fourth. Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania. |
− | Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania. | + | |
Shall we do this? | Shall we do this? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian, | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
+ | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian, | ||
French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time. | French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time. | ||
I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia. | I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia. | ||
− | M. Cassius Julianus: YES. | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: YES. |
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from |
− | more actual | + | more actual Helvetian Citizens before making this choice. |
− | Helvetian Citizens before making this choice. | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO. |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO. | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem. |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem. | + | *N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or |
− | N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or | + | |
Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether | Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether | ||
there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as | there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as | ||
Line 152: | Line 153: | ||
the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And | the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And | ||
could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please? | could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please? | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight. | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight. |
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking |
citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the | citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the | ||
population. Do they really want to be part of Germania? | population. Do they really want to be part of Germania? | ||
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or |
Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetia prefers to be considered part of | Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetia prefers to be considered part of | ||
Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that. | Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that. | ||
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS We are merely formally confirming | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS We are merely formally confirming |
the status quo. | the status quo. | ||
+ | |||
YES 16; NO O; AB 2; | YES 16; NO O; AB 2; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 4 PASSES | ITEM 4 PASSES | ||
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Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus. | Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus. | ||
Shall we do this? | Shall we do this? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
M. Iunius: Yes | M. Iunius: Yes | ||
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: YES. | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: YES. |
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. May the Gods inspire them. | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. May the Gods inspire them. |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This Sodalis will, divis volentibus, | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This Sodalis will, divis volentibus, |
enrich our cultural Romanitas and especially the Religio Romana. | enrich our cultural Romanitas and especially the Religio Romana. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas |
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. |
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS |
+ | |||
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 5 PASSES | ITEM 5 PASSES | ||
− | Item the Sixth | + | Item the Sixth Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as |
− | Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as | + | |
Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis. | Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis. | ||
Shall he be appointed? | Shall he be appointed? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * [Much cheering, fanfares and flower petals!] | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * [Much cheering, fanfares and flower petals!] |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: At last! I vote an enthusiastic YES, and am | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: At last! I vote an enthusiastic YES, and am |
gratified that his patience held out long enough to see this done. | gratified that his patience held out long enough to see this done. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. He has shown himself to be enthusiastic, | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. He has shown himself to be enthusiastic, |
dedicated and energetic on behalf of Nova Roma. | dedicated and energetic on behalf of Nova Roma. | ||
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Sertorious is perfect for the position. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Sertorious is perfect for the position. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES He is a man of proven diligence, | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES He is a man of proven diligence, |
enthusiasm, diligence and ability. | enthusiasm, diligence and ability. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas |
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. He has worked hard for this, and will | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. He has worked hard for this, and will |
make an excellent praetor. | make an excellent praetor. | ||
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS |
+ | |||
YES 18; N0 0; AB 0; | YES 18; N0 0; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 6 PASSES | ITEM 6 PASSES | ||
− | Item the Seventh | + | Item the Seventh The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the |
− | The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the | + | opening of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces. |
− | opening | + | |
− | of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces. | + | |
Shall we approve this? | Shall we approve this? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. (And am in agreement that we should be | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. (And am in agreement that we should be |
more proactive and work toward starting such efforts ourselves.) | more proactive and work toward starting such efforts ourselves.) | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Abstaino. I am not clear on this issue. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Abstaino. I am not clear on this issue. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES The sharing and emulation of best | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES The sharing and emulation of best |
practice, and mutual assistance, deserves approval. The Limes | practice, and mutual assistance, deserves approval. The Limes | ||
Co-operation facilitates this. I speak from experience. | Co-operation facilitates this. I speak from experience. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas |
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Standards are a good thing. | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Standards are a good thing. |
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS |
+ | |||
YES 17; NO 0; AB 1; | YES 17; NO 0; AB 1; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 7 PASSES | ITEM 7 PASSES | ||
− | Item the Eighth. | + | Item the Eighth. Additional Internal Senate Procedures. |
− | Additional Internal Senate Procedures. | + | |
A. The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the | A. The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the | ||
Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read | Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read | ||
(but not post on) the Senate e-mail list. Exceptions are provided. | (but not post on) the Senate e-mail list. Exceptions are provided. | ||
Shall we allow this? | Shall we allow this? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: No | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: No |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: No | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: No |
− | M. Iunius: No | + | *M. Iunius: No |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: NO | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: NO |
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. It is my understanding that in ancient Rome, | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. It is my understanding that in ancient Rome, |
Senate discussions could be heard by (and were regularly discussed by) | Senate discussions could be heard by (and were regularly discussed by) | ||
Citizens while they were going on. It is also consistent with the idea of | Citizens while they were going on. It is also consistent with the idea of | ||
helping Citizens of Nova Roma to feel more involved and to | helping Citizens of Nova Roma to feel more involved and to | ||
contribute their knowledge and ideas. | contribute their knowledge and ideas. | ||
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT. I am persuaded by the arguments of | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT. I am persuaded by the arguments of |
Australicus on this point. | Australicus on this point. | ||
− | M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I do not believe, in my view, that any | + | *M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I do not believe, in my view, that any |
useful information can be gained by the Citizens of Nova Roma from | useful information can be gained by the Citizens of Nova Roma from | ||
hearing deliberations on the Senate Floor, and I am likewise absolutely | hearing deliberations on the Senate Floor, and I am likewise absolutely | ||
Line 277: | Line 282: | ||
pledge to him my support in the future toward keeping the Citizens of | pledge to him my support in the future toward keeping the Citizens of | ||
Nova Roma properly informed.) | Nova Roma properly informed.) | ||
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I am satisfied with the restrictions. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I am satisfied with the restrictions. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO As I have said before, if it proves | + | *N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO As I have said before, if it proves |
unworkable, it will be hard to revoke or amend. I would, however, support | unworkable, it will be hard to revoke or amend. I would, however, support | ||
any future proposal to allow individual citizens read-only access on | any future proposal to allow individual citizens read-only access on | ||
application (especially magistrates and other officials), for a limited | application (especially magistrates and other officials), for a limited | ||
period and to a limited number at any time. | period and to a limited number at any time. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. I have already made my reasons known. If the | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. I have already made my reasons known. If the |
Republic didn't do it, why should we? The Senators conducted business | Republic didn't do it, why should we? The Senators conducted business | ||
out doors, until they had to debate topics. Then they went inside. | out doors, until they had to debate topics. Then they went inside. | ||
There had to be a reason for this. I think I was so they wouldn't be | There had to be a reason for this. I think I was so they wouldn't be | ||
intimidated by the populace. | intimidated by the populace. | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It was not done in old Rome. We are | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It was not done in old Rome. We are |
attempting to recreate the Roman republic. | attempting to recreate the Roman republic. | ||
− | M. Marcius Rex: Negat I bow to Sergius Australicus for his | + | *M. Marcius Rex: Negat I bow to Sergius Australicus for his |
constitutional law opinion on this particular proposal. | constitutional law opinion on this particular proposal. | ||
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT I have, no doubt, surprised many with this | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT I have, no doubt, surprised many with this |
vote. I came into this debate much in favor of the idea, though I had | vote. I came into this debate much in favor of the idea, though I had | ||
some slight qualms about the technicalities of its execution. I remain | some slight qualms about the technicalities of its execution. I remain | ||
Line 299: | Line 304: | ||
questions facing Nova Roma is how much to keep of the old versus how much | questions facing Nova Roma is how much to keep of the old versus how much | ||
to add of the new. It is not a question that will be answered quickly or | to add of the new. It is not a question that will be answered quickly or | ||
− | easily. | + | easily. Additionally, the major reason that I originally felt that this body's |
− | Additionally, the major reason that I originally felt that this body's | + | |
deliberations should be open to the populace is because of the tendency | deliberations should be open to the populace is because of the tendency | ||
to use senatus consulta to decide issues that should be taken before the | to use senatus consulta to decide issues that should be taken before the | ||
Line 314: | Line 318: | ||
the center of his or her campaign. Therefore, in light of those campaing | the center of his or her campaign. Therefore, in light of those campaing | ||
promises, and in an optimistic spirit, I opt to maintain the mos maiorum. | promises, and in an optimistic spirit, I opt to maintain the mos maiorum. | ||
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes no | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes no |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. I refer once again to the line from Twain | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. I refer once again to the line from Twain |
(or Bismarck) about sausage-making. | (or Bismarck) about sausage-making. | ||
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT I am guessing, based on on the votes of | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT I am guessing, based on on the votes of |
some of my colleagues, that we are to vote individually for each half of | some of my colleagues, that we are to vote individually for each half of | ||
this item. If I am mistaken in this | this item. If I am mistaken in this | ||
Line 324: | Line 328: | ||
suggest that in the future such items be split into two for clarity's | suggest that in the future such items be split into two for clarity's | ||
sake?) | sake?) | ||
+ | |||
YES 3; NEGAT 15; AB 0; | YES 3; NEGAT 15; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 8A FAILS | ITEM 8A FAILS | ||
Line 333: | Line 339: | ||
posting them to the Nova Roma web site. | posting them to the Nova Roma web site. | ||
Shall this be done? | Shall this be done? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, and suggest that there should be a | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, and suggest that there should be a |
record of Senate votes posted to the website. No Senator should be | record of Senate votes posted to the website. No Senator should be | ||
*forced* to explain their vote, but an option for such should definitely | *forced* to explain their vote, but an option for such should definitely | ||
be included. | be included. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This House as an institution, and many | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This House as an institution, and many |
of its members as individuals, have suffered from an undeservedly | of its members as individuals, have suffered from an undeservedly | ||
negative perception by the populus. I trust this will go a long way to | negative perception by the populus. I trust this will go a long way to | ||
remedying the matter. | remedying the matter. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. This has always been allowed. Lists were | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. This has always been allowed. Lists were |
often put up on the sides of the Rosta so those that could read could | often put up on the sides of the Rosta so those that could read could | ||
inspect them. | inspect them. | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Although the process itself should be | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Although the process itself should be |
conducted in privacy, the people do have a right to know who supports | conducted in privacy, the people do have a right to know who supports | ||
which items. Even though we are appointed for life, many of us run for | which items. Even though we are appointed for life, many of us run for | ||
Line 363: | Line 369: | ||
I also believe this to be historically correct, as the Tribunes (and | I also believe this to be historically correct, as the Tribunes (and | ||
door-slaves) did inform the people what happened within the Curia. | door-slaves) did inform the people what happened within the Curia. | ||
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS As long as this doesn't turn into | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS As long as this doesn't turn into |
the "thin edge of the wedge", I don't see any harm in it. I haven't been | the "thin edge of the wedge", I don't see any harm in it. I haven't been | ||
able to find anything that speaks of Senate votes being a secret ballot. | able to find anything that speaks of Senate votes being a secret ballot. | ||
+ | |||
YES 17; NO 1; AB 0; | YES 17; NO 1; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 8B PASSES | ITEM 8B PASSES | ||
Line 375: | Line 383: | ||
VOTE FOR BOTH or ABSTAIN. | VOTE FOR BOTH or ABSTAIN. | ||
A. "One Vote" | A. "One Vote" | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: No. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: No. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: A. One vote. Octavius has made an excellent case | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: A. One vote. Octavius has made an excellent case |
for this. | for this. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: A. One vote. I am persuaded by Octavius' arguments on | + | *Patricia Cassia: A. One vote. I am persuaded by Octavius' arguments on |
behalf of historical accuracy. | behalf of historical accuracy. | ||
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. I am persuaded here by the | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. I am persuaded here by the |
argument for consistency with Roma Antiqua and by the immediate | argument for consistency with Roma Antiqua and by the immediate | ||
practicalities. I do think, however, that it is unfortunate that we have | practicalities. I do think, however, that it is unfortunate that we have | ||
Line 390: | Line 398: | ||
irrespective of the silly results of treating a century as "tied" when | irrespective of the silly results of treating a century as "tied" when | ||
one citizen votes. | one citizen votes. | ||
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Negat. If there is more than one selection there must | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Negat. If there is more than one selection there must |
be more than one vote to reflect the opinion of the citizen. | be more than one vote to reflect the opinion of the citizen. | ||
− | N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO People have a right to vote for as | + | *N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO People have a right to vote for as |
many candidacies as there are posts to be filled. Votes will be spoiled | many candidacies as there are posts to be filled. Votes will be spoiled | ||
as a result of misunderstandings. This will be contentious. Ancient | as a result of misunderstandings. This will be contentious. Ancient | ||
practice is not always best practice. | practice is not always best practice. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. We do have to come up with a better system | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. We do have to come up with a better system |
eventually. | eventually. | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT This is not a full vote. It is half a vote. | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT This is not a full vote. It is half a vote. |
Why should the citizens stand for that? | Why should the citizens stand for that? | ||
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | + | 8D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes **NO** on this item, which should | |
− | more properly be | + | more properly be called the "half a vote per voter proposal." |
− | called the "half a vote per voter proposal." | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. This fixes a flaw in our system in a |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. This fixes a flaw in our system in a | + | |
historically correct way. Each person selects *one* candidate for consul | historically correct way. Each person selects *one* candidate for consul | ||
or praetor, just as our ancestors did. A beneficial effect of this is | or praetor, just as our ancestors did. A beneficial effect of this is | ||
Line 413: | Line 420: | ||
the consuls will serve as controls on each others power -- as the | the consuls will serve as controls on each others power -- as the | ||
founders of the Republic intended. | founders of the Republic intended. | ||
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS My arguments in favor of this | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS My arguments in favor of this |
option have already been presented. | option have already been presented. | ||
+ | |||
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0; | YES 13; NO 5; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 9A PASSES | ITEM 9A PASSES | ||
B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All" | B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All" | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: No | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: No |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: No | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: No |
− | M. Iunius: No | + | *M. Iunius: No |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT, for the reasons above | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT, for the reasons above |
− | M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, as above. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, as above. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES It has been said that this system would | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES It has been said that this system would |
favour political parties. There are no political parties in NR. May the | favour political parties. There are no political parties in NR. May the | ||
gods spare us that! It has been said that this system gives people more | gods spare us that! It has been said that this system gives people more | ||
Line 432: | Line 441: | ||
voters more votes than they ought to have, rather than deny them the | voters more votes than they ought to have, rather than deny them the | ||
votes they ought to have. | votes they ought to have. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. Too many potental problems though I liked the | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. Too many potental problems though I liked the |
effort. | effort. | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS What problems? People get to vote for who | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS What problems? People get to vote for who |
they want. Isn't this what it is all about? | they want. Isn't this what it is all about? | ||
− | M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT | + | *M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT A very good try, M Octavius. | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT A very good try, M Octavius. |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes YES | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes YES |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Absto (abstain) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Absto (abstain) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. It seemed like a good idea at first, | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. It seemed like a good idea at first, |
mathematically and logically sound, but it is not historically correct, | mathematically and logically sound, but it is not historically correct, | ||
it also encourages factionalism by allowing an entire "party" to be voted | it also encourages factionalism by allowing an entire "party" to be voted | ||
in, and it changes the balance of power by allowing some votes to be | in, and it changes the balance of power by allowing some votes to be | ||
counted twice. | counted twice. | ||
+ | |||
YES 5; NO 10; AB 3; | YES 5; NO 10; AB 3; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 9B FAILS | ITEM 9B FAILS | ||
− | Item the tenth | + | Item the tenth Addition of a Third Rogator. |
− | Addition of a Third Rogator. | + | |
To include a third elected or appointed Rogator, with only two needed to | To include a third elected or appointed Rogator, with only two needed to | ||
oversee the electoral process. | oversee the electoral process. | ||
The third to act as backup | The third to act as backup | ||
Shall this be done? | Shall this be done? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes*My comments on this proposal is that it should | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes*My comments on this proposal is that it should |
be taking to the Comitia and the Lex Vedia amended. Otherwise according | be taking to the Comitia and the Lex Vedia amended. Otherwise according | ||
to the Legal precedence | to the Legal precedence | ||
section in the Constitution, this Senatus Consulta means very little. | section in the Constitution, this Senatus Consulta means very little. | ||
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius says: It would help the Republic to function if we | + | *C. Aelius Ericius says: It would help the Republic to function if we |
− | had a couple | + | had a couple of spares for this highly essential post. We should so recommend this to |
− | of spares for this highly essential post. We should so recommend this to | + | |
the Comitia. | the Comitia. | ||
− | M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. I also agree with Germanicus that there | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. I also agree with Germanicus that there |
should actually be *four* trained Rogators at any time as opposed to | should actually be *four* trained Rogators at any time as opposed to | ||
three. | three. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Assuming this is actually a recommendation to the | + | *Patricia Cassia: Assuming this is actually a recommendation to the |
Comitia rather than an attempt to overturn a Lex (which we can't do), Uti | Comitia rather than an attempt to overturn a Lex (which we can't do), Uti | ||
rogas. | rogas. | ||
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS - provided that this is to be | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS - provided that this is to be |
understood as a recommendation for legislation, not as an | understood as a recommendation for legislation, not as an | ||
unconstitutional attempt to amend a lex by s.c. | unconstitutional attempt to amend a lex by s.c. | ||
− | M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (The item is not worded properly to be | + | *M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (The item is not worded properly to be |
voted upon by this August Body. A change in the proper Lex should be | voted upon by this August Body. A change in the proper Lex should be | ||
submitted for approval and then voted upon by the people. Again, in my | submitted for approval and then voted upon by the people. Again, in my | ||
view, a flawed Consultum is worse than no decision at all.) | view, a flawed Consultum is worse than no decision at all.) | ||
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES |
If the Senate is entitled to co-opt a Dictator in an emergency, it would | If the Senate is entitled to co-opt a Dictator in an emergency, it would | ||
− | seem absurd for the Senate not to take | + | seem absurd for the Senate not to take the initiative to co-opt back-up |
Rogatores (I would favour two), when the machinery of government is in | Rogatores (I would favour two), when the machinery of government is in | ||
danger of breaking down. Consul Q. Fabius has every right to feel | danger of breaking down. Consul Q. Fabius has every right to feel | ||
Line 494: | Line 503: | ||
the Comitia for ratification (assuming we have enough Rogatores to allow | the Comitia for ratification (assuming we have enough Rogatores to allow | ||
this to happen). | this to happen). | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: I say yes it should be done and sent to the Comitia | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: I say yes it should be done and sent to the Comitia |
for ratification. | for ratification. | ||
The Consules will write a lex and put it to the people next week. | The Consules will write a lex and put it to the people next week. | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It is unconstitutional as written. | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It is unconstitutional as written. |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS I concur with Senator Labienus on this issue | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS I concur with Senator Labienus on this issue |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS I agree to this only inasmuch as we | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS I agree to this only inasmuch as we |
shall secure a replacement for either of the two elected rogatores in | shall secure a replacement for either of the two elected rogatores in | ||
anticipation of the eventuality that one of them may prematurely lay down | anticipation of the eventuality that one of them may prematurely lay down | ||
Line 505: | Line 514: | ||
consules to draft an appropriate lex and put it before the people during | consules to draft an appropriate lex and put it before the people during | ||
the upcoming election. | the upcoming election. | ||
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes NO | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes NO |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/No) As Germanicus pointed out this | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/No) As Germanicus pointed out this |
is not something we can do, but I do think this should be something that | is not something we can do, but I do think this should be something that | ||
is on the first comtia call. | is on the first comtia call. | ||
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. I am aware that the lex specifies two | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. I am aware that the lex specifies two |
Rogators; therefore the third must be strictly considered a backup, who | Rogators; therefore the third must be strictly considered a backup, who | ||
will assume the position when one of the primaries fails to fulfill their | will assume the position when one of the primaries fails to fulfill their | ||
duty. | duty. | ||
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT The Senate lacks the legal authority to | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT The Senate lacks the legal authority to |
alter a Lex. The item, as presented, is unconstitutional in my opinion. | alter a Lex. The item, as presented, is unconstitutional in my opinion. | ||
If it does pass, I would urge the Tribunes to exercise their power of | If it does pass, I would urge the Tribunes to exercise their power of | ||
intercessio in such cases. (I would absolutely support a Senatus | intercessio in such cases. (I would absolutely support a Senatus | ||
Consultum that urges the Lex be amended by the Assembly...) | Consultum that urges the Lex be amended by the Assembly...) | ||
+ | |||
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0; | YES 13; NO 5; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 10 PASSES LEX TO BE SENT TO THE COMITIA | ITEM 10 PASSES LEX TO BE SENT TO THE COMITIA | ||
Line 524: | Line 535: | ||
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo requests to be Propraetor of Canada Orientalis. | Pompeia Cornelia Strabo requests to be Propraetor of Canada Orientalis. | ||
Shall we allow her? | Shall we allow her? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo has proven | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo has proven |
herself to be both dedicated and enthusiastic. I believe Nova Roma will | herself to be both dedicated and enthusiastic. I believe Nova Roma will | ||
benefit greatly by having her in this office. | benefit greatly by having her in this office. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. Pompeia Cornelia is a thoughtful and mature | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. Pompeia Cornelia is a thoughtful and mature |
person who will represent us well. | person who will represent us well. | ||
− | + | 8M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS | |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Cornelia is well suited to the position. I | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Cornelia is well suited to the position. I |
am pleased to see both Canadian positions will be filled for the first | am pleased to see both Canadian positions will be filled for the first | ||
time. | time. | ||
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES She is as worthy of the office as Q. | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES She is as worthy of the office as Q. |
Sertorius is of that of Propraetor Canadae Occidentalis, for the same | Sertorius is of that of Propraetor Canadae Occidentalis, for the same | ||
reasons. | reasons. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Vti Rogas. Though is it my imagination or are most of | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Vti Rogas. Though is it my imagination or are most of |
the Cornelii | the Cornelii | ||
Provincial Praetors? | Provincial Praetors? | ||
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. |
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS |
+ | |||
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | ||
+ | |||
ITEM 11 PASSES | ITEM 11 PASSES | ||
Line 558: | Line 571: | ||
Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship. | Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship. | ||
Shall we create the Province? | Shall we create the Province? | ||
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, although I agree that the province | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, although I agree that the province |
should be called Argentinia. | should be called Argentinia. | ||
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (though I am with Germanicus in wishing it | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (though I am with Germanicus in wishing it |
were called Argentinia). | were called Argentinia). | ||
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Although I think it is more a matter of | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Although I think it is more a matter of |
the Senate approving what has already been created. | the Senate approving what has already been created. | ||
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. |
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. |
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS |
+ | |||
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | ||
ITEM 12a PASSES | ITEM 12a PASSES | ||
Shall we make him the Provincial Praetor? | Shall we make him the Provincial Praetor? | ||
− | L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes | + | *L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes |
− | A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes | + | *A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes |
− | M. Iunius: Yes | + | *M. Iunius: Yes |
− | C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. | + | *C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. |
− | M. Cassius Julianus: YES | + | *M. Cassius Julianus: YES |
− | Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. | + | *Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. |
− | M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS |
− | M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! | + | *M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)! |
− | C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas. | + | *C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas. |
− | N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES | + | *N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES |
− | Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas | + | *Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas |
− | M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS | + | *M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS |
− | M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS | + | *M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS |
− | T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS | + | *T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS |
− | D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes | + | *D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes |
− | L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) | + | *L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes) |
− | M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. | + | *M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. |
− | Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS | + | *Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS |
+ | |||
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; | ||
ITEM 12b PASSES | ITEM 12b PASSES | ||
Line 610: | Line 625: | ||
Item VII - Yes | Item VII - Yes | ||
Item VIII - A - No | Item VIII - A - No | ||
− | + | - B - Yes | |
Item VIIII - A - Yes | Item VIIII - A - Yes | ||
− | + | - B - No | |
Item X - Yes | Item X - Yes | ||
Item XI - Yes | Item XI - Yes | ||
Line 625: | Line 640: | ||
citizens from all the national states in the regio. On the other hand | citizens from all the national states in the regio. On the other hand | ||
Argentina is a very big country so she could be a separate province. I | Argentina is a very big country so she could be a separate province. I | ||
− | would | + | would like to hear opinions on that issue of colleagues more experienced with |
− | like to hear opinions on that issue of colleagues more experienced with | + | the situation of America Australis. |
− | the | + | |
− | situation of America Australis. | + | |
End of voting record | End of voting record | ||
− | |||
Valete, | Valete, |
Revision as of 23:54, 9 August 2008
This is a report of a session of the Nova Roma Senate of Non. Dec. ‡, Q. Maximo M. Minucio cos. ‡ MMDCCLIII a.u.c..
Senate action for 5 December 2753 as posted in the “old Tabularium” This appears to be the FIRST Tribune report. Tiberius Galerius Paulinus, Censor 9 August 2761 A.V.C.
Senatvs Consvlta Senate Voting Results 5 December MMDCCLIII as published by tribune Lucius Sergius Australicus
Savete quirites!
COMPLETE Results of Voting on the November Senate Agenda
Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius Sulla Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus
Item the First. Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma Shall this be done?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: No
- A. Gryllus Graecis: No
- M. Iunius: No
- C. Aelius Ericius: No.
- M. Cassius Julianus: NO. * The proposed procedure is an excellent start,
but was done in a hurry since there was a "crisis" over Censorial funding. That has been dealt with in the short term, so there seems to be time for everyone who has ideas to present them. This can be worked out and completed next vote.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (yes).
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. We have to start somewhere on
this, and most of the proposal is perfectly sensible
- M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I agree with my Colleague Senator
Germanicus that, in my view, to pass a flawed Consultum is far worse than to wait for a reasonable time to get it right. There is a saying which applies: "We never have the luxury to get it right the first time, but always have sufficent resource to correct it!!!" )
- C. Tullius Cicero: Negat, this has not been sufficiently discussed.
- N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO Good in principle, but I cannot
support it as it stands. It needs much more careful, unhurried work, especially on detailed procedure for claiming, assessing claims, reimbursement, and audit. I strongly suggest we co-opt a committee, from citizens with professional experience, and including the Quaestores, for encoding such procedures as proposed law. Project funding - in fact, the whole issue of project management - needs a whole manual, not just part of one Senatus Consultum.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. This procedure was rewritten twice from varius
submissions. It still needs some tweaking. Suggest it is polished and resubmitted for Dec. Call.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS I agree with Cassia. We have to start
somewhere. If we keep changing the text, it will never get done.
- M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT More time for discussion needed
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT There is much of value in this proposal,
but the quaestores' role is incorrect.
- D. Iunius Palladius: Iunius Palladius votes no
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. While a procedure is needed, this one has
the Quaestors choosing whether to approve an expense, which is not proper.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT There seem to be both structural and
grammatical errors with this proposal. YES 3; NO 15; AB 0 ITEM 1 FAILS
Item the Second It is proposed that Nova Roma enact the following policy on financial controls Shall this be done?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. Same points apply
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, there should be a permanent treasury staff.
- N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO For reasons similar to those stated
above, I cannot give this my approval.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: Negat More time for discussion needed
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius abstains. I think that we should start
moving control of the treasury towards a more permanent, professional staff.
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 15; NO 2; AB 1;
ITEM 2 PASSES
Item the Third Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship Shall we sponsor the Legio?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: YES. * I also am not overly concerned over having
too many small legions. Sponsoring new startups only gives us an opportunity to grow Legions which are more connected to Nova Roma, and made up with a greater percentage of Citizens.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. (While some have expressed concerns about
sponsoring too many small legions, I think this is exactly the purpose of our sponsorship program - to give these legions a place to find one another and arrange projects in cooperation.)
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, this is part of our goals.
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Though I feel we should not go on to
sponsor an infinity of legiones, as I said earlier, I wish them well.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. Although we should start thinking of
requesting greater numbers of recruits in legiones before we grant them sponsorship. Alaudae has a special place in my heart, since it was one of the first legiones I constructed.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS I had originally suggested the
sponsorship program way back when, and am quite pleased that it is being continued.
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 3 PASSES
Item the Fourth. Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania. Shall we do this?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian,
French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time. I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia.
- M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from
more actual Helvetian Citizens before making this choice.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO.
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem.
- N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or
Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as there is no one in this House to speak for the particular interests of the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please?
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking
citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the population. Do they really want to be part of Germania?
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or
Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetia prefers to be considered part of Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS We are merely formally confirming
the status quo.
YES 16; NO O; AB 2;
ITEM 4 PASSES
Item the Fifth, Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus. Shall we do this?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. May the Gods inspire them.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This Sodalis will, divis volentibus,
enrich our cultural Romanitas and especially the Religio Romana.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 5 PASSES
Item the Sixth Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis. Shall he be appointed?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * [Much cheering, fanfares and flower petals!]
- M. Cassius Julianus: At last! I vote an enthusiastic YES, and am
gratified that his patience held out long enough to see this done.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. He has shown himself to be enthusiastic,
dedicated and energetic on behalf of Nova Roma.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Sertorious is perfect for the position.
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES He is a man of proven diligence,
enthusiasm, diligence and ability.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. He has worked hard for this, and will
make an excellent praetor.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; N0 0; AB 0;
ITEM 6 PASSES
Item the Seventh The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the opening of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces. Shall we approve this?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. (And am in agreement that we should be
more proactive and work toward starting such efforts ourselves.)
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Abstaino. I am not clear on this issue.
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES The sharing and emulation of best
practice, and mutual assistance, deserves approval. The Limes Co-operation facilitates this. I speak from experience.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Standards are a good thing.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 17; NO 0; AB 1;
ITEM 7 PASSES
Item the Eighth. Additional Internal Senate Procedures. A. The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the
Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read (but not post on) the Senate e-mail list. Exceptions are provided.
Shall we allow this?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: No
- A. Gryllus Graecis: No
- M. Iunius: No
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: NO
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. It is my understanding that in ancient Rome,
Senate discussions could be heard by (and were regularly discussed by) Citizens while they were going on. It is also consistent with the idea of helping Citizens of Nova Roma to feel more involved and to contribute their knowledge and ideas.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT. I am persuaded by the arguments of
Australicus on this point.
- M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I do not believe, in my view, that any
useful information can be gained by the Citizens of Nova Roma from hearing deliberations on the Senate Floor, and I am likewise absolutely certain that much harm and confusion would result from such a proposal. Finally it does not appear to be historically correct. I honor Senator Fortunatus for his abiliy to look past the immediate discussion, and pledge to him my support in the future toward keeping the Citizens of Nova Roma properly informed.)
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I am satisfied with the restrictions.
- N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO As I have said before, if it proves
unworkable, it will be hard to revoke or amend. I would, however, support any future proposal to allow individual citizens read-only access on application (especially magistrates and other officials), for a limited period and to a limited number at any time.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. I have already made my reasons known. If the
Republic didn't do it, why should we? The Senators conducted business out doors, until they had to debate topics. Then they went inside. There had to be a reason for this. I think I was so they wouldn't be intimidated by the populace.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It was not done in old Rome. We are
attempting to recreate the Roman republic.
- M. Marcius Rex: Negat I bow to Sergius Australicus for his
constitutional law opinion on this particular proposal.
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT I have, no doubt, surprised many with this
vote. I came into this debate much in favor of the idea, though I had some slight qualms about the technicalities of its execution. I remain torn between a desire to provide a transparent government and a wish to maintain the mos maiorum. I have long argued that one of the major questions facing Nova Roma is how much to keep of the old versus how much to add of the new. It is not a question that will be answered quickly or easily. Additionally, the major reason that I originally felt that this body's deliberations should be open to the populace is because of the tendency to use senatus consulta to decide issues that should be taken before the comitia. Often, we treat our decisions as though they create law, and we have occasionally acted as though we have a right to discipline individual citizens--effectively acting as a closed court in which the accused is not even assured of being allowed to defend him or her self. If we take onto ourselves the powers of the comitia, then we must be exposed to scrutiny and answerable to the people for our decisions. However, I am heartened by the fact that almost every candidate for major office has made building the institutions necessary to rectify the problem of the Senate's arrogation of powers that are not its by right the center of his or her campaign. Therefore, in light of those campaing promises, and in an optimistic spirit, I opt to maintain the mos maiorum.
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes no
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. I refer once again to the line from Twain
(or Bismarck) about sausage-making.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT I am guessing, based on on the votes of
some of my colleagues, that we are to vote individually for each half of this item. If I am mistaken in this assumption, then my vote for the combined 8th item is NEGAT. (May I suggest that in the future such items be split into two for clarity's sake?)
YES 3; NEGAT 15; AB 0;
ITEM 8A FAILS
B. II. The votes of individual Senators, along with any rationales they offer with their votes (i.e., in the same e-mail as the vote itself), will be made available to the Citizens by the Tribunes of the Plebs, either by forwarding them to the main Nova Roma e-mail list or by posting them to the Nova Roma web site. Shall this be done?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, and suggest that there should be a
record of Senate votes posted to the website. No Senator should be
- forced* to explain their vote, but an option for such should definitely
be included.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS.
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This House as an institution, and many
of its members as individuals, have suffered from an undeservedly negative perception by the populus. I trust this will go a long way to remedying the matter.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. This has always been allowed. Lists were
often put up on the sides of the Rosta so those that could read could inspect them.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Although the process itself should be
conducted in privacy, the people do have a right to know who supports which items. Even though we are appointed for life, many of us run for elected office as well, and should therefore be held accountable. I also believe this to be historically correct, as the Tribunes (and door-slaves) did inform the people what happened within the Curia.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS As long as this doesn't turn into
the "thin edge of the wedge", I don't see any harm in it. I haven't been able to find anything that speaks of Senate votes being a secret ballot.
YES 17; NO 1; AB 0;
ITEM 8B PASSES
Item the Ninth. Change to the Electoral Procedure Re: Multiple Candidates To ensure a consistent standard for future elections, these two mutually exclusive proposals are now placed before the Senate:
VOTE FOR BOTH or ABSTAIN. A. "One Vote"
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: No.
- M. Cassius Julianus: A. One vote. Octavius has made an excellent case
for this.
- Patricia Cassia: A. One vote. I am persuaded by Octavius' arguments on
behalf of historical accuracy.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. I am persuaded here by the
argument for consistency with Roma Antiqua and by the immediate practicalities. I do think, however, that it is unfortunate that we have attempted to have a full number of Centuries with a small number of citizens. This rather destroys the point of the Century system, irrespective of the silly results of treating a century as "tied" when one citizen votes.
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Negat. If there is more than one selection there must
be more than one vote to reflect the opinion of the citizen.
- N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO People have a right to vote for as
many candidacies as there are posts to be filled. Votes will be spoiled as a result of misunderstandings. This will be contentious. Ancient practice is not always best practice.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. We do have to come up with a better system
eventually.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT This is not a full vote. It is half a vote.
Why should the citizens stand for that?
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
8D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes **NO** on this item, which should more properly be called the "half a vote per voter proposal."
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. This fixes a flaw in our system in a
historically correct way. Each person selects *one* candidate for consul or praetor, just as our ancestors did. A beneficial effect of this is that both competing viewpoints will be represented in the Consulate, and the consuls will serve as controls on each others power -- as the founders of the Republic intended.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS My arguments in favor of this
option have already been presented.
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
ITEM 9A PASSES
B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All"
- L. Cornelius Sulla: No
- A. Gryllus Graecis: No
- M. Iunius: No
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT, for the reasons above
- M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, as above.
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES It has been said that this system would
favour political parties. There are no political parties in NR. May the gods spare us that! It has been said that this system gives people more than one vote for each candidate. Mea sententia, it is better to give the voters more votes than they ought to have, rather than deny them the votes they ought to have.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. Too many potental problems though I liked the
effort.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS What problems? People get to vote for who
they want. Isn't this what it is all about?
- M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT A very good try, M Octavius.
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes YES
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Absto (abstain)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. It seemed like a good idea at first,
mathematically and logically sound, but it is not historically correct, it also encourages factionalism by allowing an entire "party" to be voted in, and it changes the balance of power by allowing some votes to be counted twice.
YES 5; NO 10; AB 3;
ITEM 9B FAILS
Item the tenth Addition of a Third Rogator. To include a third elected or appointed Rogator, with only two needed to oversee the electoral process. The third to act as backup Shall this be done?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes*My comments on this proposal is that it should
be taking to the Comitia and the Lex Vedia amended. Otherwise according to the Legal precedence section in the Constitution, this Senatus Consulta means very little.
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius says: It would help the Republic to function if we
had a couple of spares for this highly essential post. We should so recommend this to the Comitia.
- M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. I also agree with Germanicus that there
should actually be *four* trained Rogators at any time as opposed to three.
- Patricia Cassia: Assuming this is actually a recommendation to the
Comitia rather than an attempt to overturn a Lex (which we can't do), Uti rogas.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS - provided that this is to be
understood as a recommendation for legislation, not as an unconstitutional attempt to amend a lex by s.c.
- M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (The item is not worded properly to be
voted upon by this August Body. A change in the proper Lex should be submitted for approval and then voted upon by the people. Again, in my view, a flawed Consultum is worse than no decision at all.)
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
If the Senate is entitled to co-opt a Dictator in an emergency, it would seem absurd for the Senate not to take the initiative to co-opt back-up Rogatores (I would favour two), when the machinery of government is in danger of breaking down. Consul Q. Fabius has every right to feel exasperated. So do I. A general agreement to bend the rules of the Constitution in cases such as those we have experienced this year, when the Comitia cannot work and elections cannot be held is, I believe, fully pardonable when a shortcoming in the Constitution has us backed into a Catch-22 situation. It is the spirit of the law, not the letter of it, which is important at times like these. So I am voting for something that is unconstitutional and therefore (technically) illegal. I hope it is the last time I shall feel I need to do such a thing. I hope this passes the vote, and goes to the Comitia for ratification (assuming we have enough Rogatores to allow this to happen).
- Q. Fabius Maximus: I say yes it should be done and sent to the Comitia
for ratification. The Consules will write a lex and put it to the people next week.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It is unconstitutional as written.
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS I concur with Senator Labienus on this issue
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS I agree to this only inasmuch as we
shall secure a replacement for either of the two elected rogatores in anticipation of the eventuality that one of them may prematurely lay down the task. We do not have the power to alter a lex, and I urge the consules to draft an appropriate lex and put it before the people during the upcoming election.
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes NO
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/No) As Germanicus pointed out this
is not something we can do, but I do think this should be something that is on the first comtia call.
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. I am aware that the lex specifies two
Rogators; therefore the third must be strictly considered a backup, who will assume the position when one of the primaries fails to fulfill their duty.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT The Senate lacks the legal authority to
alter a Lex. The item, as presented, is unconstitutional in my opinion. If it does pass, I would urge the Tribunes to exercise their power of intercessio in such cases. (I would absolutely support a Senatus Consultum that urges the Lex be amended by the Assembly...)
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
ITEM 10 PASSES LEX TO BE SENT TO THE COMITIA
Item the eleventh Pompeia Cornelia Strabo requests to be Propraetor of Canada Orientalis. Shall we allow her?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo has proven
herself to be both dedicated and enthusiastic. I believe Nova Roma will benefit greatly by having her in this office.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. Pompeia Cornelia is a thoughtful and mature
person who will represent us well. 8M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Cornelia is well suited to the position. I
am pleased to see both Canadian positions will be filled for the first time.
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES She is as worthy of the office as Q.
Sertorius is of that of Propraetor Canadae Occidentalis, for the same reasons.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Vti Rogas. Though is it my imagination or are most of
the Cornelii Provincial Praetors?
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 11 PASSES
Item the Twelfth. Lucius Pompeius Octavianus requests the creation of a province called Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship. Shall we create the Province?
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, although I agree that the province
should be called Argentinia.
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (though I am with Germanicus in wishing it
were called Argentinia).
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Although I think it is more a matter of
the Senate approving what has already been created.
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas.
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; ITEM 12a PASSES
Shall we make him the Provincial Praetor?
- L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
- A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
- M. Iunius: Yes
- C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
- M. Cassius Julianus: YES
- Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
- M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
- M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
- C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
- N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
- Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
- M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
- M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
- T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
- D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
- L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
- M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
- Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0; ITEM 12b PASSES
Senator A. Probus cast the following votes too late to count: Alexander Probus: Item I - No Item II -Yes Item III - Yes Item IIII - Yes Item V - Yes Item VI - Yes Item VII - Yes Item VIII - A - No
- B - Yes
Item VIIII - A - Yes
- B - No
Item X - Yes Item XI - Yes Item XII - Yes (with an additional note) According to the last item I would like to post a question. What if few years after we will have other citizens in Chile, Uruguai, Paraguai and Bolivia? Will we create separate provinces for every national country or will try to simpliify the things uniting some of them into one NR province. My opinion is to createa province with a different name than one national state in the regio. That name may to be acceptable for the potential citizens from all the national states in the regio. On the other hand Argentina is a very big country so she could be a separate province. I would like to hear opinions on that issue of colleagues more experienced with the situation of America Australis.
End of voting record
Valete,
Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus Tribunus Plebis
12/05/2000